This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I have removed the "tenorshawm horn", on the grounds that I don't believe it exists (it was originally listed at list of musical instruments also, but has been removed from there). If anybody knows what one is, I'm dying to know, so lets hear about it! -- Camembert
Is there any benefit to saying that "brass instruments" are part of the category "brass instruments"? I mean, maybe some systems of logic permit this, but I find it counterintuitive. Ok if I revert? Thanks, Opus33 19:51, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
people say that a bell shape amplifies sound, and they were used in phonographs, too. it doesn't seem likely to me that it could actually amplify, though, being just a passive piece of material in a specific shape. can anyone explain the (apparent) amplification? - Omegatron 03:35, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)
128.83.101.89 05:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I would not call a trumpet an amplifier, and here it is as I understand it from physics classes:
If the bell end of your trumpet were not flared, like the chopped off end of a pipe, most of what you would hear would be the fundamental frequency (at which your lips actually move), and then VERY LITTLE high pitched "white noise" produced by buzzing, sounding like a mellow hum. Experiment with hoses and pipes yourself. This is where the bell comes in. The white noise, through the tube, is converted largely to high-pitch, intertube reflecting standing waves that are only audible if the end flares out (so these waves that have bounced transversely can be directed foward). The fundamental pitch, on the other hand, is a longitudinal movement of the column of air, and only varies directly in volume with the amount of air blown.
The Magic in Action:
1.Buzzing (includes a fundamental pitch and whitenoise above it)--->
2.Mouthpiece resonance (exaggerates a select series of frequencies from the white noise)--->
3.Lead pipe to bell (like the mouthpiece, also exaggerates a select and infinite series of notes. here we trade off FAST air movement with minimal sound to SLOW air movement with maximum sound...ENERGY IS CONSERVED!)
4.Bell (high frequencies resonating and reflecting inside the tubing from your buzzing "white noise" are projected foward)
To justify the penultimate bullet, remember, that if the lips were flapping, but no air was moving through the column, it would be very quiet. Air movement is KEY to the sound (exactly like a whistle or a flute). Thus, in effect, we are trading fast air movement for loud sound. And while it is tempting to call this phenomenon "amplification," only a select series of pitches (from your buzzing) actually makes it out the bell. I think a more accurate name for the process would be "harmonic filtering." Calling a trumpet an amplifier is like calling a flute an amplifier...what does a flute amplify? Nothing. You channel white noise into vibration of an air column, beginning with FAST air movement and ending in slow air movement (conservation of energy).
What happens: My educated guess? The volume of the low fundamental frequency you are buzzing is, for the most part, "unamplified" in brass instruments. It varies directly with the amount of air blown. On the other hand, higher frequencies, once a significant volume level has been reached, "appear" to become disproportionately louder, when really, all that is happening is as the white noise from the lips vibrating increases, higher and higher notes in the harmonic are piled on top of eachother to create "constructive interference," as the highest pitches formed start becoming out of audible range. Any given frequency in a brass instrument (even if input by a sinewave-producing loudspeaker) reaches a maximum volume, and from then on, only an illusion of "getting even louder" takes place, when really, only new, higher modes in the vibrating air column are activated, with each of those attaining its own maximum amplitude as new frequencies are exponentially added above it from your lips slapping harder.
Hope you like my reasoning, Mike G
P.S. To those who want to know what "series of frequencies" I was referring to, [ [1]].
128.83.101.89 05:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of the bell is in impedance matching, to maximise the energy transfer from the standing wave withing the instrument to the surrounding air. The principle, which is not explained in the impedance matching article itself, is that a gradual change in tube diameter (the bell) causes a gradual change in impedance. Gradual changes in impedance have improved energy transmission compared to step changes because the waves reflected back into the instrument tend to cancel each other out.
In this sense the bell is not an amplifier (this is indeed impossible with no additional energy input), but it does have an amplifying effect compared to no bell.
If no bell was on the instrument it would sound as bad as a simple piece of garden hose. The harsh ' white noise'y sound is heard in this situation because higher frequencies are more easily transmitted across an impedance step, in a mechanism analogous to the reduced Bass (musical term) response of smaller speakers. See Impedance matching#Acoustical matching.
The first paragraph of this entry lists a mouthpiece as an essential part of a brass instrument. I disagree. A conch shell with the tip ground off has no need for a separate mouthpiece in order to be put into use as a brass instrument. Nor does the didgeridoo. Both instruments are, I believe, properly classified as brass instruments, since their sound derives from lip vibration causing oscillation of a column of air in a tubular or conical resonator. What makes an instrument "brass" is how its sound is produced, not what material it is made of -- as is already noted in the article -- nor the details of its construction, such as the presence or absence of a mouthpiece.
This depends on your point of view. If you like the edgy sound that brass instruments have, then yes, mouthpieces are necessary. They channel a wide column of air into a small one and "spill" it back into a larger air column, saving your lungs' air. However, most importantly, as I stated above, mouthpieces serve as a filter of lower frequencies and a resonater of higher frequencies, thereby altering the equalization of the white noise input by your lips. Without a bell, these high, bright frequencies would not be projected foward. Of course, without a mouthpiece, they would not be there in the first place (they would still be in the muddle of white noise from your buzzing). -Mike
I'm not sure it's really correct to say partials are so called "because it causes only a part of the tubing to vibrate (whereas at the fundamental the entire tubing will vibrate)."
My understanding (admittedly from 10 year past A-Level physics) is that there is still a standing wave over the whole tube, but there are more nodes (and anti-nodes) of vibration (where you could argue that there is no vibration, as either there is no pressure change over time at these points, or no displacement of air molecules from their rest position).
If there wasn't vibration over the who tube, I don't think you'd get much noise out of the end (no energy propagation?) David Underdown 14:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
A partial is the interval between any note or that note, used interchangeably, played without any keys pressed down. they get progressively smaller as you rise in pitch. form the pedal tone up, it is, over 1.5 octaves: octave, perf. 5th, perf. 4th, major 3rd, minor 3rd. from there ity gets very fuzzy o the brass player, for many fingerings work. so on a Bb horn it would go:
odd F D Bb F Bb Bb(pedal)
That's the basic musicality of it. at least on a trumpet/euphonium/tuba/trombone. I don't know the physics. Faramirtook 01:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, a partial is one term of the harmonic series that starts with the fundamental and goes on with integer frequency multiples of it. The way I just described it in this diff is a simplistic intuitive reading of that... __ Just plain Bill 00:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
While reading the leaflet in a CD by Michel Portal and Richard Galliano ( Blow up), I discovered the existence and sound of a rare brass instrument of the thirties : the jazzophone. I managed to find a couple of pics, which I linked to in the embryonic article I initiate about it. Since I'm not a brass player myself, can anyone simply cite it somewhere in the article in a more à propos way than what I would do? Thanks in advance. -- 171.16.2.3 11:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Deleted the section; wildly inaccurate and not so coherent. I don't think "Pedal tone" merits its own section, but we could possibly use a more complete description of how the overtone system works on brasses. -- Rschmertz 00:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
lol! let's see... drawing on "harmonics" at the wiki; the picture on how a string vibrates also reflects what sound waves do insicde a brass tube. the "standing wave" prevents sound; a "harmonic wave" will freely resonate; which is why you can't easily play an "F" while fingering an "E", but "E" is easy to play.
the first harmonic, or the fundamental, and any notes below it are "pedal tones".
pressing a valve down makes the fundamental lower, and changes all the harmonics a set of lips can vibrate to above it. 2nd valve is a half step lower, 1st valve is a whole step, and the 3rd valve is a step and a half. some harmonics aren't true to pitch, and are usually avoided. with no valves pressed, the overtone series is achieved by speeding up air while tightening the embouchere, or slowing down air while loosening the embouchere.
a "bell flare" is an acoustic coupler; an impedence matching device from the mouthpeice bore diameter to the bell diameter. a conical bore instrument simply more closely follows a "horn loudspeaker" than a straight bore. straight bores are easier to play "edgy", or "brassy" than conical bores. the "ideal" conical bore would probably follow a "tractrix" curve, but this is subject to debate.
ps, I'm a horn player, and a sound engineer (RF as well, where harmonics also apply). I've found and understand the connections between many separate technologies with similar fundamentals (so to speak) 206.245.139.67 ( talk) 15:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC).
The trigger mechanism is not only confined to "some euphoniums and on many five-valved F-Tubas", it is also found a large number of cornets and many trumpets, is it not?- Wbchilds 00:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Have expanded section, but I think that the mechanism you are refering to on tubas etc are compensators, not "triggers". The section on compensators explains these well enough. Feel free to add to anything if you know of any other instruments with triggers. I've heard of and seen some other instruments with them, but they tend to be old, rare or specially made and I didnt think they were worth including. Open to futher query.- Wbchilds 10:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Which instruments have one on the main tuning slide (as opposed to a valve slide) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.75.18 ( talk) 02:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
How hard would it be to bring this article up to GA-class? What should be added or corrected?- Wbchilds 01:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The text describes the tone of trumpets or trombones as "bright". I have always considered these instruments to be "dark", or "edgy", or "covered" in tone. In contrast, conical-bore cornets and euphoniums have been described as "bright" and "mellow". Does "bright", for one, have a different meaning depending on the English being spoken? Why are trumpets preferred over cornets by symphonic composers? Virgil H. Soule ( talk) 04:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear friends,
The Unequal Temperaments book of 1978 was described-in writing-as the definitive reference on the matter by authorities such as John Barnes, Hubert Bédard, Kenneth Gilbert, Igor Kipnis, Rudolf Rasch and others.
In the 1990's I also developed the first professional-grade temperament spreadsheets.
Eventually I setup the "Unequal Temperaments" website, where I uploaded the spreadsheets which, kept permanently updated, are available for FREE. I also uploaded years ago a provisional "Update" to the book of 1978.
The website lately gives information on the recently released new version of Unequal Temperaments 2008, which includes a detailed chapter about Unequal Temperaments in BRASS INSTRUMENTS. (The website does NOT sell the book)
I would find it useful to Wikipedia readers if my website was included among External Links:
Kind regards
Claudio
Dr. Claudio Di Veroli
86.42.128.58 ( talk) 17:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Would it be possible to add http://www.classicalmusichomepage.com/reference/brass-reference to the external links section? This page is dedicated to all the best online reference material for brass. Thanks. Ndifrancesco ( talk) 12:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The above needs more explanation or correction. Hyacinth ( talk) 02:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
For example, given a length of tubing equaling 100 inches when open and a consistent addition of 6 inches (correct for the 2nd valve), one obtains the following tuning discrepancies:
Valve(s) | Adds | Total | Pitch | Tubing/open | Decimal | ET decimal | Intonation | Semitone: previous/current pitches |
Semitone decimal |
Semitone ET decimal |
Semitone intonation |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Open tubing | 0" | 100" | B♭ | 100/100 | 1.0 | 1.0 | in tune | ||||
2 | 6" | 106" | A | 106/100 | 1.06 | 1.059 | in tune | 106/100 | 1.06 | 1.059 | in tune |
1 | 12" | 112" | A♭ | 112/100 | 1.12 | 1.122 | (flat) | 112/106 | 1.057 | 1.059 | (sharp) |
1+2 | 18" | 118" | G | 118/100 | 1.18 | 1.189 | (flat) | 118/112 | 1.056 | 1.059 | (sharp) |
3 | 18" | 118" | G | 118/100 | 1.18 | 1.189 | (flat) | 118/112 | 1.056 | 1.059 | (sharp) |
2+3 | 24" | 124" | G♭ | 124/100 | 1.24 | 1.259 | flat | 124/118 | 1.051 | 1.059 | sharp |
1+3 | 30" | 130" | F | 130/100 | 1.30 | 1.335 | flat | 130/124 | 1.048 | 1.059 | sharp |
1+2+3 | 36" | 136" | E | 136/100 | 1.36 | 1.414 | flat | 136/130 | 1.046 | 1.059 | sharp |
However, given a length of tubing equaling 100 inches when open, a first valve of 12 inches and a 1+3 combination equaling the correct 33.5 inches, one obtains the following tuning discrepancies:
Valve(s) | Adds | Total | Pitch | Tubing/open | Decimal | ET decimal | Intonation | Semitone: previous/current pitches |
Semitone decimal |
Semitone ET decimal |
Semitone intonation |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Open tubing | 0" | 100" | B♭ | 100/100 | 1.0 | 1.0 | in tune | ||||
2 | 4.4" | 104.4" | A | 104.4/100 | 1.044 | 1.059 | flat | 104.4/100 | 1.044 | 1.059 | sharp |
1 | 12" | 112" | A♭ | 112/100 | 1.12 | 1.122 | (flat) | 112/104.4 | 1.073 | 1.059 | flat |
1+2 | 18" | 118" | G | 118/100 | 1.18 | 1.189 | (flat) | 118/112 | 1.056 | 1.059 | (sharp) |
3 | 21.5" | 121.5" | G | 121.5/100 | 1.215 | 1.189 | sharp | 121.5/118 | 1.029 | 1.059 | sharp |
2+3 | 25.9" | 125.9" | G♭ | 125.9/100 | 1.259 | 1.259 | in tune | 125.9/121.5 | 1.036 | 1.059 | sharp |
1+3 | 33.5" | 133.5" | F | 133.5/100 | 1.335 | 1.335 | in tune | 133.5/125.9 | 1.060 | 1.059 | flat |
1+2+3 | 39.5" | 139.5" | E | 139.5/100 | 1.395 | 1.414 | flat | 139.5/133.5 | 1.045 | 1.059 | sharp |
The above demonstrates that more than one tuning discrepancy is possible, and thus an actual, if not common one should be described. The second table is based on http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#valves : "Suppose that the first and third valves do lower it by 5 equal tempered, in other words they decrease the pitch by 33.5% and so must together add a length of 33.5 cm. So fingering 1 − 3 has pipe of length 133.5 cm. If we add our 5.9 cm, we increase this to 139.4 cm. This is an increase of 5.9 cm/133.5 cm, which is only 4.4%, which is only three quarters of an equal tempered semitone." Hyacinth ( talk) 03:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Is there a reference handy for what brass instrument manufacturers actually do? In the case of trumpets and cornets, it makes little musical sense to have any single valve sound flat. Better to have all valves and their combinations either in tune or sharp, since the usual slide compensation (either ring/saddle combinations or triggers) generally extends slides from their shortest position. Typically the third valve slide is extended for 1-3 and 1-2-3 fingerings, with further refinements of on-the-fly valve slide compensation described in that U of OK reference. That said, I doubt the article stands to benefit from going into such a level of detail. __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 11:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I have just seen on TV (in a performance of Rossini's Messe Solonnelle from Germany) a horn about the size of an alto or baritone horn, but L-shaped, the bell pointing forward, with a U of straight tube over the player's shoulder, and the rest, including the valves, down his front. What was it? -- Hugh7 ( talk) 06:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
i came to this page (while listening to a classical piece) with a specific question in mind: what are the origins of brass instruments? A quick perusal did not provide the answer, and that was all i wanted. Couldn't this be a useful section to add? zonker 02:22, 11 February 2011 (UTC)zonker123 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zonker123 ( talk • contribs)
Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth ( talk) 02:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
“While no longer featured in euphoniums for decades, professional tubas are still built like this, with five valves being the norm on CC- and BB♭-tubas and five or six valves on F-tubas.” - this conflicts with my considerable personal experience within brass bands, particularly as a BB♭ bass player. It may be true for orchestral tubas, but I would dispute “the norm”. In brass banding, 4 valve basses (and euphs) dominate. I've rephrased this sentence subtly to reduce the emphasis, and noted that it is, in fact, unreferenced. JRYon ( talk) 18:29, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't this be a good idea here? Like a list of traditional instruments, and their ranges with links, rather than burying them in a paragraph? Not trying to intrude—just a thought. o0drogue0o 08:18, 15 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by O0drogue0o ( talk • contribs)
I would find that the article could be more useful as an educative tool if there was an example shots of each of the instruments keep it simple, not make it artistic). Something along the lines of "Which brass instrument is that?" — billinghurst sDrewth 11:22, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I have removed the "tenorshawm horn", on the grounds that I don't believe it exists (it was originally listed at list of musical instruments also, but has been removed from there). If anybody knows what one is, I'm dying to know, so lets hear about it! -- Camembert
Is there any benefit to saying that "brass instruments" are part of the category "brass instruments"? I mean, maybe some systems of logic permit this, but I find it counterintuitive. Ok if I revert? Thanks, Opus33 19:51, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
people say that a bell shape amplifies sound, and they were used in phonographs, too. it doesn't seem likely to me that it could actually amplify, though, being just a passive piece of material in a specific shape. can anyone explain the (apparent) amplification? - Omegatron 03:35, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)
128.83.101.89 05:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I would not call a trumpet an amplifier, and here it is as I understand it from physics classes:
If the bell end of your trumpet were not flared, like the chopped off end of a pipe, most of what you would hear would be the fundamental frequency (at which your lips actually move), and then VERY LITTLE high pitched "white noise" produced by buzzing, sounding like a mellow hum. Experiment with hoses and pipes yourself. This is where the bell comes in. The white noise, through the tube, is converted largely to high-pitch, intertube reflecting standing waves that are only audible if the end flares out (so these waves that have bounced transversely can be directed foward). The fundamental pitch, on the other hand, is a longitudinal movement of the column of air, and only varies directly in volume with the amount of air blown.
The Magic in Action:
1.Buzzing (includes a fundamental pitch and whitenoise above it)--->
2.Mouthpiece resonance (exaggerates a select series of frequencies from the white noise)--->
3.Lead pipe to bell (like the mouthpiece, also exaggerates a select and infinite series of notes. here we trade off FAST air movement with minimal sound to SLOW air movement with maximum sound...ENERGY IS CONSERVED!)
4.Bell (high frequencies resonating and reflecting inside the tubing from your buzzing "white noise" are projected foward)
To justify the penultimate bullet, remember, that if the lips were flapping, but no air was moving through the column, it would be very quiet. Air movement is KEY to the sound (exactly like a whistle or a flute). Thus, in effect, we are trading fast air movement for loud sound. And while it is tempting to call this phenomenon "amplification," only a select series of pitches (from your buzzing) actually makes it out the bell. I think a more accurate name for the process would be "harmonic filtering." Calling a trumpet an amplifier is like calling a flute an amplifier...what does a flute amplify? Nothing. You channel white noise into vibration of an air column, beginning with FAST air movement and ending in slow air movement (conservation of energy).
What happens: My educated guess? The volume of the low fundamental frequency you are buzzing is, for the most part, "unamplified" in brass instruments. It varies directly with the amount of air blown. On the other hand, higher frequencies, once a significant volume level has been reached, "appear" to become disproportionately louder, when really, all that is happening is as the white noise from the lips vibrating increases, higher and higher notes in the harmonic are piled on top of eachother to create "constructive interference," as the highest pitches formed start becoming out of audible range. Any given frequency in a brass instrument (even if input by a sinewave-producing loudspeaker) reaches a maximum volume, and from then on, only an illusion of "getting even louder" takes place, when really, only new, higher modes in the vibrating air column are activated, with each of those attaining its own maximum amplitude as new frequencies are exponentially added above it from your lips slapping harder.
Hope you like my reasoning, Mike G
P.S. To those who want to know what "series of frequencies" I was referring to, [ [1]].
128.83.101.89 05:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of the bell is in impedance matching, to maximise the energy transfer from the standing wave withing the instrument to the surrounding air. The principle, which is not explained in the impedance matching article itself, is that a gradual change in tube diameter (the bell) causes a gradual change in impedance. Gradual changes in impedance have improved energy transmission compared to step changes because the waves reflected back into the instrument tend to cancel each other out.
In this sense the bell is not an amplifier (this is indeed impossible with no additional energy input), but it does have an amplifying effect compared to no bell.
If no bell was on the instrument it would sound as bad as a simple piece of garden hose. The harsh ' white noise'y sound is heard in this situation because higher frequencies are more easily transmitted across an impedance step, in a mechanism analogous to the reduced Bass (musical term) response of smaller speakers. See Impedance matching#Acoustical matching.
The first paragraph of this entry lists a mouthpiece as an essential part of a brass instrument. I disagree. A conch shell with the tip ground off has no need for a separate mouthpiece in order to be put into use as a brass instrument. Nor does the didgeridoo. Both instruments are, I believe, properly classified as brass instruments, since their sound derives from lip vibration causing oscillation of a column of air in a tubular or conical resonator. What makes an instrument "brass" is how its sound is produced, not what material it is made of -- as is already noted in the article -- nor the details of its construction, such as the presence or absence of a mouthpiece.
This depends on your point of view. If you like the edgy sound that brass instruments have, then yes, mouthpieces are necessary. They channel a wide column of air into a small one and "spill" it back into a larger air column, saving your lungs' air. However, most importantly, as I stated above, mouthpieces serve as a filter of lower frequencies and a resonater of higher frequencies, thereby altering the equalization of the white noise input by your lips. Without a bell, these high, bright frequencies would not be projected foward. Of course, without a mouthpiece, they would not be there in the first place (they would still be in the muddle of white noise from your buzzing). -Mike
I'm not sure it's really correct to say partials are so called "because it causes only a part of the tubing to vibrate (whereas at the fundamental the entire tubing will vibrate)."
My understanding (admittedly from 10 year past A-Level physics) is that there is still a standing wave over the whole tube, but there are more nodes (and anti-nodes) of vibration (where you could argue that there is no vibration, as either there is no pressure change over time at these points, or no displacement of air molecules from their rest position).
If there wasn't vibration over the who tube, I don't think you'd get much noise out of the end (no energy propagation?) David Underdown 14:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
A partial is the interval between any note or that note, used interchangeably, played without any keys pressed down. they get progressively smaller as you rise in pitch. form the pedal tone up, it is, over 1.5 octaves: octave, perf. 5th, perf. 4th, major 3rd, minor 3rd. from there ity gets very fuzzy o the brass player, for many fingerings work. so on a Bb horn it would go:
odd F D Bb F Bb Bb(pedal)
That's the basic musicality of it. at least on a trumpet/euphonium/tuba/trombone. I don't know the physics. Faramirtook 01:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, a partial is one term of the harmonic series that starts with the fundamental and goes on with integer frequency multiples of it. The way I just described it in this diff is a simplistic intuitive reading of that... __ Just plain Bill 00:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
While reading the leaflet in a CD by Michel Portal and Richard Galliano ( Blow up), I discovered the existence and sound of a rare brass instrument of the thirties : the jazzophone. I managed to find a couple of pics, which I linked to in the embryonic article I initiate about it. Since I'm not a brass player myself, can anyone simply cite it somewhere in the article in a more à propos way than what I would do? Thanks in advance. -- 171.16.2.3 11:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Deleted the section; wildly inaccurate and not so coherent. I don't think "Pedal tone" merits its own section, but we could possibly use a more complete description of how the overtone system works on brasses. -- Rschmertz 00:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
lol! let's see... drawing on "harmonics" at the wiki; the picture on how a string vibrates also reflects what sound waves do insicde a brass tube. the "standing wave" prevents sound; a "harmonic wave" will freely resonate; which is why you can't easily play an "F" while fingering an "E", but "E" is easy to play.
the first harmonic, or the fundamental, and any notes below it are "pedal tones".
pressing a valve down makes the fundamental lower, and changes all the harmonics a set of lips can vibrate to above it. 2nd valve is a half step lower, 1st valve is a whole step, and the 3rd valve is a step and a half. some harmonics aren't true to pitch, and are usually avoided. with no valves pressed, the overtone series is achieved by speeding up air while tightening the embouchere, or slowing down air while loosening the embouchere.
a "bell flare" is an acoustic coupler; an impedence matching device from the mouthpeice bore diameter to the bell diameter. a conical bore instrument simply more closely follows a "horn loudspeaker" than a straight bore. straight bores are easier to play "edgy", or "brassy" than conical bores. the "ideal" conical bore would probably follow a "tractrix" curve, but this is subject to debate.
ps, I'm a horn player, and a sound engineer (RF as well, where harmonics also apply). I've found and understand the connections between many separate technologies with similar fundamentals (so to speak) 206.245.139.67 ( talk) 15:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC).
The trigger mechanism is not only confined to "some euphoniums and on many five-valved F-Tubas", it is also found a large number of cornets and many trumpets, is it not?- Wbchilds 00:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Have expanded section, but I think that the mechanism you are refering to on tubas etc are compensators, not "triggers". The section on compensators explains these well enough. Feel free to add to anything if you know of any other instruments with triggers. I've heard of and seen some other instruments with them, but they tend to be old, rare or specially made and I didnt think they were worth including. Open to futher query.- Wbchilds 10:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Which instruments have one on the main tuning slide (as opposed to a valve slide) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.75.18 ( talk) 02:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
How hard would it be to bring this article up to GA-class? What should be added or corrected?- Wbchilds 01:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The text describes the tone of trumpets or trombones as "bright". I have always considered these instruments to be "dark", or "edgy", or "covered" in tone. In contrast, conical-bore cornets and euphoniums have been described as "bright" and "mellow". Does "bright", for one, have a different meaning depending on the English being spoken? Why are trumpets preferred over cornets by symphonic composers? Virgil H. Soule ( talk) 04:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear friends,
The Unequal Temperaments book of 1978 was described-in writing-as the definitive reference on the matter by authorities such as John Barnes, Hubert Bédard, Kenneth Gilbert, Igor Kipnis, Rudolf Rasch and others.
In the 1990's I also developed the first professional-grade temperament spreadsheets.
Eventually I setup the "Unequal Temperaments" website, where I uploaded the spreadsheets which, kept permanently updated, are available for FREE. I also uploaded years ago a provisional "Update" to the book of 1978.
The website lately gives information on the recently released new version of Unequal Temperaments 2008, which includes a detailed chapter about Unequal Temperaments in BRASS INSTRUMENTS. (The website does NOT sell the book)
I would find it useful to Wikipedia readers if my website was included among External Links:
Kind regards
Claudio
Dr. Claudio Di Veroli
86.42.128.58 ( talk) 17:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Would it be possible to add http://www.classicalmusichomepage.com/reference/brass-reference to the external links section? This page is dedicated to all the best online reference material for brass. Thanks. Ndifrancesco ( talk) 12:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The above needs more explanation or correction. Hyacinth ( talk) 02:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
For example, given a length of tubing equaling 100 inches when open and a consistent addition of 6 inches (correct for the 2nd valve), one obtains the following tuning discrepancies:
Valve(s) | Adds | Total | Pitch | Tubing/open | Decimal | ET decimal | Intonation | Semitone: previous/current pitches |
Semitone decimal |
Semitone ET decimal |
Semitone intonation |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Open tubing | 0" | 100" | B♭ | 100/100 | 1.0 | 1.0 | in tune | ||||
2 | 6" | 106" | A | 106/100 | 1.06 | 1.059 | in tune | 106/100 | 1.06 | 1.059 | in tune |
1 | 12" | 112" | A♭ | 112/100 | 1.12 | 1.122 | (flat) | 112/106 | 1.057 | 1.059 | (sharp) |
1+2 | 18" | 118" | G | 118/100 | 1.18 | 1.189 | (flat) | 118/112 | 1.056 | 1.059 | (sharp) |
3 | 18" | 118" | G | 118/100 | 1.18 | 1.189 | (flat) | 118/112 | 1.056 | 1.059 | (sharp) |
2+3 | 24" | 124" | G♭ | 124/100 | 1.24 | 1.259 | flat | 124/118 | 1.051 | 1.059 | sharp |
1+3 | 30" | 130" | F | 130/100 | 1.30 | 1.335 | flat | 130/124 | 1.048 | 1.059 | sharp |
1+2+3 | 36" | 136" | E | 136/100 | 1.36 | 1.414 | flat | 136/130 | 1.046 | 1.059 | sharp |
However, given a length of tubing equaling 100 inches when open, a first valve of 12 inches and a 1+3 combination equaling the correct 33.5 inches, one obtains the following tuning discrepancies:
Valve(s) | Adds | Total | Pitch | Tubing/open | Decimal | ET decimal | Intonation | Semitone: previous/current pitches |
Semitone decimal |
Semitone ET decimal |
Semitone intonation |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Open tubing | 0" | 100" | B♭ | 100/100 | 1.0 | 1.0 | in tune | ||||
2 | 4.4" | 104.4" | A | 104.4/100 | 1.044 | 1.059 | flat | 104.4/100 | 1.044 | 1.059 | sharp |
1 | 12" | 112" | A♭ | 112/100 | 1.12 | 1.122 | (flat) | 112/104.4 | 1.073 | 1.059 | flat |
1+2 | 18" | 118" | G | 118/100 | 1.18 | 1.189 | (flat) | 118/112 | 1.056 | 1.059 | (sharp) |
3 | 21.5" | 121.5" | G | 121.5/100 | 1.215 | 1.189 | sharp | 121.5/118 | 1.029 | 1.059 | sharp |
2+3 | 25.9" | 125.9" | G♭ | 125.9/100 | 1.259 | 1.259 | in tune | 125.9/121.5 | 1.036 | 1.059 | sharp |
1+3 | 33.5" | 133.5" | F | 133.5/100 | 1.335 | 1.335 | in tune | 133.5/125.9 | 1.060 | 1.059 | flat |
1+2+3 | 39.5" | 139.5" | E | 139.5/100 | 1.395 | 1.414 | flat | 139.5/133.5 | 1.045 | 1.059 | sharp |
The above demonstrates that more than one tuning discrepancy is possible, and thus an actual, if not common one should be described. The second table is based on http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#valves : "Suppose that the first and third valves do lower it by 5 equal tempered, in other words they decrease the pitch by 33.5% and so must together add a length of 33.5 cm. So fingering 1 − 3 has pipe of length 133.5 cm. If we add our 5.9 cm, we increase this to 139.4 cm. This is an increase of 5.9 cm/133.5 cm, which is only 4.4%, which is only three quarters of an equal tempered semitone." Hyacinth ( talk) 03:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Is there a reference handy for what brass instrument manufacturers actually do? In the case of trumpets and cornets, it makes little musical sense to have any single valve sound flat. Better to have all valves and their combinations either in tune or sharp, since the usual slide compensation (either ring/saddle combinations or triggers) generally extends slides from their shortest position. Typically the third valve slide is extended for 1-3 and 1-2-3 fingerings, with further refinements of on-the-fly valve slide compensation described in that U of OK reference. That said, I doubt the article stands to benefit from going into such a level of detail. __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 11:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I have just seen on TV (in a performance of Rossini's Messe Solonnelle from Germany) a horn about the size of an alto or baritone horn, but L-shaped, the bell pointing forward, with a U of straight tube over the player's shoulder, and the rest, including the valves, down his front. What was it? -- Hugh7 ( talk) 06:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
i came to this page (while listening to a classical piece) with a specific question in mind: what are the origins of brass instruments? A quick perusal did not provide the answer, and that was all i wanted. Couldn't this be a useful section to add? zonker 02:22, 11 February 2011 (UTC)zonker123 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zonker123 ( talk • contribs)
Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth ( talk) 02:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
“While no longer featured in euphoniums for decades, professional tubas are still built like this, with five valves being the norm on CC- and BB♭-tubas and five or six valves on F-tubas.” - this conflicts with my considerable personal experience within brass bands, particularly as a BB♭ bass player. It may be true for orchestral tubas, but I would dispute “the norm”. In brass banding, 4 valve basses (and euphs) dominate. I've rephrased this sentence subtly to reduce the emphasis, and noted that it is, in fact, unreferenced. JRYon ( talk) 18:29, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't this be a good idea here? Like a list of traditional instruments, and their ranges with links, rather than burying them in a paragraph? Not trying to intrude—just a thought. o0drogue0o 08:18, 15 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by O0drogue0o ( talk • contribs)
I would find that the article could be more useful as an educative tool if there was an example shots of each of the instruments keep it simple, not make it artistic). Something along the lines of "Which brass instrument is that?" — billinghurst sDrewth 11:22, 18 December 2012 (UTC)