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Teena Brandon is buried under her real name. That is a fact , and is properly cited. Since we know Teena NEVER went under tha name Brandon Teena, and her grave stone reflects her actual name, I propose the article title be changed accordingly. Nanaharas 23:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I provided a citation to speak to the relative 'infamy' of the crime. In the commentary, the author states, "Like Matthew Shepard, another white teen from the sticks cruelly slain by the intolerant, Teena has taken on iconic status since his death. His story has been recounted in a film, a documentary, a documentary about the the film, and mainstream press attention ranging from The New Yorker to "20/20." [1]
I've also found a Lambda Legal link, describing the case as one of the 40 most important GLBT rights cases. [2]
If you disagree with the first citation as a summary of the case's 'infamy' as expressed in the breadth of media coverage, or the second's representation of the case as one of the 40 most important cases, please feel free to discuss (if course!). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This is an inflammatory phrase, with specific and contentious legal meaning. HRC (the Human Rights Campaign) and GLAAD (Gay-Lesbian Alliance Against Discrimination) refer to the case as a hate crime. For purposes of constructive discussion around resolving the issue here are links to each organization's representation of the Brandon Teena murders as a hate crime. [3], [4], [5] Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The tendentious, evasive, self-contradictory and repetitive nature of the anon/single-role accounts here on a number of issues has led me to the opinion that the placement of a trollwarning tag is justified on this page. The 'personal claims' and 'soapbox' arguments have persisted for almost two months - with the anons and single-role accounts making claim after claim and failing to provide valid evidence, while the other side (more established WP editors) does the work of actually going about determining whether the requested edits are verifiable - and yet the dispute continues to twist and turn. Quite frankly disruption, rather than making verifiable edits, seems the intent of the anon/single-role accounts involved. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
All because I questioned GLAAD and if they were a reliable source.
And that is an uncivil and personal attack. Against wiki rules. You removed comments of the same nature the other day and now editors are allowing your comments to stand. Why would this be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.119 ( talk • contribs)
And that isn't an uncivil and personal attack? I don't see the editors scrambling to remove your comment. It seems to me, it isn't what you post in this article, it is who posts.
Evolve? I think I will just continue to be a man, and you can go on being what ever it is you pretent to be.
Ok, I did some editing, and I think the tone comes off as a bit better. Can someone please review it and maybe tell me what you think? Also, I intergrated that 'trivia section' into the 'Aftermath' section. How does it look? The article still needs some work. Eirra 18:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
In reading this article I was a bit confused, so in addition to some minor edits (fixing punctuation, typos, etc.), I added in the opening paragraph a very brief few words indicating that Brandon Teena was "physiologically female," but then everything else is left to refer to the subject as a Male (all pronouns, etc.). To be honest, I found the fact that Teena was referred to as a "he" to be a bit confusing, but now that it clearly states that physiologically Teena was a female, readers should have no problem understanding that the gender identification is largely independent of the subject's genitalia, reproductive organs, and other physiological differences between the sexes. Srajan01 01:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that is an appropriate change, it distinctly clarifies Brandon's sex as being physically female when Brandon's gender(or gender identity) is male. Regardless of the pronoun people use for Brandon it is clear who Brandon is. It may be reasonable to remove references to he or she throughout the article and except where Brandon's gender or sex is relevent. When talking about Brandon pysically female would be correct. When talking about Brandon mentally male would be correct.
Hey Kasreyn, do you also think that people who don't know what colors are in fashion this season are backwards? Give me a break, most common people have never heard of trans-gendered people, let alone met one and understand the issues involved. To make the article a bit more clear is perfectly acceptable and doesn't cater to the "backwards," or, "ignorant" as you would put it. People don't always want to click down a long tree of articles just to understand one topic, so a couple of clarifying pronouns or adjectives here or there to prevent them from having to do that is fine. I'm sorry if the rest of us aren't as fashionable as you are, but you have proved yourself to "backwards" and "ignorant" yourself, so if that's what being fashionable means, then I'm happy to be not in your chic crowd. Personally, I think that to refer to a transgendered person as the sex opposite of his or her biological organs is wrong, since gender-identity crises have been proven to be an illness; oh, but I forgot, that's not chic enough for people like you, to actually call something what it is. You could never order "a cup of coffee," but rather, you have to have, "a half-caf double mocha chai frap latte-iato with a twist."
Why is the above line constantly being revert-warred over? Is there any evidence/cites to support this? Obviously, as the subject is dead, this isn't a WP:BLP issue, but it's a pretty strong statement & as his parents are still alive, can be pretty offensive. Comments? - Alison ☺ 22:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Only one parent is still alive. And the statement can be found in multiple places in A Jones book "All She Wanted". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 23:16, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
If you don't agree with certain people here you get your comments deleted. Good old fashioned censorship hard at work.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.58.0.232 ( talk • contribs) July 26, 2007.
"From that point on, it was virtually impossible to get Teena to talk to her psychiatrists. She preferred not to dredge up any more unhappy or complicated feelings, and no resolution was made about her identity or future. "They called her a compulsive liar," JoAnn recalled. "She stopped attending the sessions after two weeks. They said she didn't need any long-term care and let her go."
Death of a Deceiver by Eric Konigsberg Playboy magazine, January 1995 http://brand0nteena.tripod.com/articlesb/playboy.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 22:02, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
Brandon was diagnosed as a compulsive liar. If the word of her mother and Lincoln General Hospital psychiatrists are not good enough then what is? There are several more references and an entire book that labels her as someone who twisted the truth as the need arose. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 22:14, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
Actually the playboy article had Tom Nissen as the main source. Aphrodite Jones authored a book called "All she wanted" which describes, not so much Teena Brandon, but rather Brandon as a compulsive liar. I have found a web site that has most of this book quoted so I will find many references and we can discuss the issue more in-depth. Also, most of this article can be discussed and discarded as being wrong and not in line with her published accounts by Teena Brandon's own family. As for JoAnn Brandon, if anyone actually lisened to her there would be no mention of the fictional character "Brandon Teena". That person only existed after the Nissen Trials began. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 02:40, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
Aphrodite Jones, Author, All She Wanted "The essence and the main part of this book has to do with the love story between this male figure and all these young women that this male figure woos. What's behind that psychological and emotionally." Jones told Statewide she doesn't view Teena Brandon as an innocent victim of an unprovoked act of violence. In fact, she claims neither of the convicted murderers is the central villain in the book. [Jones:] Actually if there's anybody who is a villain in the book, it's Teena Brandon." [Q:] In what sense? [Jones:] "She was not only a deceiver in the sense of her sexuality, why did this person need to steal in order to romance these girls? Why was this person such an obsessive compulsive liar? What about this person fed into this crime itself? If this person had not been so pathological in her lying, his lying, would this triple homicide never have occurred? Probably wouldn't have."
http://net.unl.edu/swi/pers/tbrandon.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 02:48, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
In late January of 1992, Brandon was admitted to the Lancaster County Crisis Center as a 19 year old Caucasian woman who repeatedly attempted suicide. She was tricked into going there by Sara and Heather.
Brandon was put on suicide alert. When Joann arrived Teena was very angry. The Psychiatrist said that Teena spoke with said she needed long term extensive treatment. That she was becoming a pathological liar and losing her identity.
http://brand0nteena.tripod.com/biobrandon.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 02:56, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
Due to all the anon revert-warring going on, I've posted a request at WP:ANI that the article be temporarily semi-protected against anonymous edits. If this is not done, the three revert rule may become involved, and I'm sure no one wants that. We have better things to do here than revert-war against an anonymous editor who has no respect for consensus. My request can be found via this link. Anonymous editor, if you don't like this, I invite you to sign up for an account so we know what to call you. Cheers, Kasreyn 20:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
(Personal Attack Removed by - Philippe | Talk 04:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)) I would suggest that Nanaharas be locked out of being allowed to edit this page because of his extreme bias.
The policy on using transsexual pronouns is proper and is supported by all specialists in the field. Gender Identity Dysphoria is a recognized condition with only one recognized course of treatment: gender transition. Furthermore, something called the "Real Life Experience" is necessary, and involved living entirely in the target gender. Doctors require and demand that the patient always be referred to be the target gender, never by the physical sex. So the name indeed is Brandon Teena, and he is most certainly a he. The doctors know best, and that is what they have to say.
Nanaharas needs to be banned from this page, I already had heated words for him over at IMDB. (Personal Attack Removed by - Philippe | Talk 04:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)) I will personally make it my duty to revert any and all changes he dares make to the article to change any gender pronouns to female or any references whatsoever to female. If I have to babysit this thing, I will. Nanaharas, I will not allow you to trash him, period. If you want a war that bad, I will give it to you. -- 12.201.55.10 ( talk) 06:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC) Brandon Harwell
(Irrelevant statements removed by - Philippe | Talk 04:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)) ""
Let me get this straight: a person whose entire edit history itself consists of contentious and unverified attack edits to this article can actually demand the removal via OTRS of "personal attack" comments against him or her which (a) weren't attacks in the first place, and (b) can't possibly be connected back to him or her anyway because they're about an anonymous username?
That's truly something straight out of Orwell. Bearcat ( talk) 02:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The way the movie portrays it, which I'll grant may not the truth, Tina was persecuted so much for being attracted to girls that Brandon was created in order to pass as a boy; a compromise that allowed one to express their sexuality and avoid the perception of being a lesbian and the prejudice and abuse that came with it. If that is what happened, that does not qualify as true transgenderism. But the movie could have gotten that all wrong. I suspect it's actually impossible to know and prove whether Brandon was transgender or not, and we're just guessing. -- AvatarMN ( talk) 14:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Teena Brandon is buried under her real name. That is a fact , and is properly cited. Since we know Teena NEVER went under tha name Brandon Teena, and her grave stone reflects her actual name, I propose the article title be changed accordingly. Nanaharas 23:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I provided a citation to speak to the relative 'infamy' of the crime. In the commentary, the author states, "Like Matthew Shepard, another white teen from the sticks cruelly slain by the intolerant, Teena has taken on iconic status since his death. His story has been recounted in a film, a documentary, a documentary about the the film, and mainstream press attention ranging from The New Yorker to "20/20." [1]
I've also found a Lambda Legal link, describing the case as one of the 40 most important GLBT rights cases. [2]
If you disagree with the first citation as a summary of the case's 'infamy' as expressed in the breadth of media coverage, or the second's representation of the case as one of the 40 most important cases, please feel free to discuss (if course!). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This is an inflammatory phrase, with specific and contentious legal meaning. HRC (the Human Rights Campaign) and GLAAD (Gay-Lesbian Alliance Against Discrimination) refer to the case as a hate crime. For purposes of constructive discussion around resolving the issue here are links to each organization's representation of the Brandon Teena murders as a hate crime. [3], [4], [5] Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The tendentious, evasive, self-contradictory and repetitive nature of the anon/single-role accounts here on a number of issues has led me to the opinion that the placement of a trollwarning tag is justified on this page. The 'personal claims' and 'soapbox' arguments have persisted for almost two months - with the anons and single-role accounts making claim after claim and failing to provide valid evidence, while the other side (more established WP editors) does the work of actually going about determining whether the requested edits are verifiable - and yet the dispute continues to twist and turn. Quite frankly disruption, rather than making verifiable edits, seems the intent of the anon/single-role accounts involved. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
All because I questioned GLAAD and if they were a reliable source.
And that is an uncivil and personal attack. Against wiki rules. You removed comments of the same nature the other day and now editors are allowing your comments to stand. Why would this be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.119 ( talk • contribs)
And that isn't an uncivil and personal attack? I don't see the editors scrambling to remove your comment. It seems to me, it isn't what you post in this article, it is who posts.
Evolve? I think I will just continue to be a man, and you can go on being what ever it is you pretent to be.
Ok, I did some editing, and I think the tone comes off as a bit better. Can someone please review it and maybe tell me what you think? Also, I intergrated that 'trivia section' into the 'Aftermath' section. How does it look? The article still needs some work. Eirra 18:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
In reading this article I was a bit confused, so in addition to some minor edits (fixing punctuation, typos, etc.), I added in the opening paragraph a very brief few words indicating that Brandon Teena was "physiologically female," but then everything else is left to refer to the subject as a Male (all pronouns, etc.). To be honest, I found the fact that Teena was referred to as a "he" to be a bit confusing, but now that it clearly states that physiologically Teena was a female, readers should have no problem understanding that the gender identification is largely independent of the subject's genitalia, reproductive organs, and other physiological differences between the sexes. Srajan01 01:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that is an appropriate change, it distinctly clarifies Brandon's sex as being physically female when Brandon's gender(or gender identity) is male. Regardless of the pronoun people use for Brandon it is clear who Brandon is. It may be reasonable to remove references to he or she throughout the article and except where Brandon's gender or sex is relevent. When talking about Brandon pysically female would be correct. When talking about Brandon mentally male would be correct.
Hey Kasreyn, do you also think that people who don't know what colors are in fashion this season are backwards? Give me a break, most common people have never heard of trans-gendered people, let alone met one and understand the issues involved. To make the article a bit more clear is perfectly acceptable and doesn't cater to the "backwards," or, "ignorant" as you would put it. People don't always want to click down a long tree of articles just to understand one topic, so a couple of clarifying pronouns or adjectives here or there to prevent them from having to do that is fine. I'm sorry if the rest of us aren't as fashionable as you are, but you have proved yourself to "backwards" and "ignorant" yourself, so if that's what being fashionable means, then I'm happy to be not in your chic crowd. Personally, I think that to refer to a transgendered person as the sex opposite of his or her biological organs is wrong, since gender-identity crises have been proven to be an illness; oh, but I forgot, that's not chic enough for people like you, to actually call something what it is. You could never order "a cup of coffee," but rather, you have to have, "a half-caf double mocha chai frap latte-iato with a twist."
Why is the above line constantly being revert-warred over? Is there any evidence/cites to support this? Obviously, as the subject is dead, this isn't a WP:BLP issue, but it's a pretty strong statement & as his parents are still alive, can be pretty offensive. Comments? - Alison ☺ 22:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Only one parent is still alive. And the statement can be found in multiple places in A Jones book "All She Wanted". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 23:16, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
If you don't agree with certain people here you get your comments deleted. Good old fashioned censorship hard at work.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.58.0.232 ( talk • contribs) July 26, 2007.
"From that point on, it was virtually impossible to get Teena to talk to her psychiatrists. She preferred not to dredge up any more unhappy or complicated feelings, and no resolution was made about her identity or future. "They called her a compulsive liar," JoAnn recalled. "She stopped attending the sessions after two weeks. They said she didn't need any long-term care and let her go."
Death of a Deceiver by Eric Konigsberg Playboy magazine, January 1995 http://brand0nteena.tripod.com/articlesb/playboy.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 22:02, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
Brandon was diagnosed as a compulsive liar. If the word of her mother and Lincoln General Hospital psychiatrists are not good enough then what is? There are several more references and an entire book that labels her as someone who twisted the truth as the need arose. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 22:14, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
Actually the playboy article had Tom Nissen as the main source. Aphrodite Jones authored a book called "All she wanted" which describes, not so much Teena Brandon, but rather Brandon as a compulsive liar. I have found a web site that has most of this book quoted so I will find many references and we can discuss the issue more in-depth. Also, most of this article can be discussed and discarded as being wrong and not in line with her published accounts by Teena Brandon's own family. As for JoAnn Brandon, if anyone actually lisened to her there would be no mention of the fictional character "Brandon Teena". That person only existed after the Nissen Trials began. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 02:40, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
Aphrodite Jones, Author, All She Wanted "The essence and the main part of this book has to do with the love story between this male figure and all these young women that this male figure woos. What's behind that psychological and emotionally." Jones told Statewide she doesn't view Teena Brandon as an innocent victim of an unprovoked act of violence. In fact, she claims neither of the convicted murderers is the central villain in the book. [Jones:] Actually if there's anybody who is a villain in the book, it's Teena Brandon." [Q:] In what sense? [Jones:] "She was not only a deceiver in the sense of her sexuality, why did this person need to steal in order to romance these girls? Why was this person such an obsessive compulsive liar? What about this person fed into this crime itself? If this person had not been so pathological in her lying, his lying, would this triple homicide never have occurred? Probably wouldn't have."
http://net.unl.edu/swi/pers/tbrandon.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 02:48, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
In late January of 1992, Brandon was admitted to the Lancaster County Crisis Center as a 19 year old Caucasian woman who repeatedly attempted suicide. She was tricked into going there by Sara and Heather.
Brandon was put on suicide alert. When Joann arrived Teena was very angry. The Psychiatrist said that Teena spoke with said she needed long term extensive treatment. That she was becoming a pathological liar and losing her identity.
http://brand0nteena.tripod.com/biobrandon.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 ( talk) 02:56, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
Due to all the anon revert-warring going on, I've posted a request at WP:ANI that the article be temporarily semi-protected against anonymous edits. If this is not done, the three revert rule may become involved, and I'm sure no one wants that. We have better things to do here than revert-war against an anonymous editor who has no respect for consensus. My request can be found via this link. Anonymous editor, if you don't like this, I invite you to sign up for an account so we know what to call you. Cheers, Kasreyn 20:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
(Personal Attack Removed by - Philippe | Talk 04:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)) I would suggest that Nanaharas be locked out of being allowed to edit this page because of his extreme bias.
The policy on using transsexual pronouns is proper and is supported by all specialists in the field. Gender Identity Dysphoria is a recognized condition with only one recognized course of treatment: gender transition. Furthermore, something called the "Real Life Experience" is necessary, and involved living entirely in the target gender. Doctors require and demand that the patient always be referred to be the target gender, never by the physical sex. So the name indeed is Brandon Teena, and he is most certainly a he. The doctors know best, and that is what they have to say.
Nanaharas needs to be banned from this page, I already had heated words for him over at IMDB. (Personal Attack Removed by - Philippe | Talk 04:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)) I will personally make it my duty to revert any and all changes he dares make to the article to change any gender pronouns to female or any references whatsoever to female. If I have to babysit this thing, I will. Nanaharas, I will not allow you to trash him, period. If you want a war that bad, I will give it to you. -- 12.201.55.10 ( talk) 06:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC) Brandon Harwell
(Irrelevant statements removed by - Philippe | Talk 04:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)) ""
Let me get this straight: a person whose entire edit history itself consists of contentious and unverified attack edits to this article can actually demand the removal via OTRS of "personal attack" comments against him or her which (a) weren't attacks in the first place, and (b) can't possibly be connected back to him or her anyway because they're about an anonymous username?
That's truly something straight out of Orwell. Bearcat ( talk) 02:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The way the movie portrays it, which I'll grant may not the truth, Tina was persecuted so much for being attracted to girls that Brandon was created in order to pass as a boy; a compromise that allowed one to express their sexuality and avoid the perception of being a lesbian and the prejudice and abuse that came with it. If that is what happened, that does not qualify as true transgenderism. But the movie could have gotten that all wrong. I suspect it's actually impossible to know and prove whether Brandon was transgender or not, and we're just guessing. -- AvatarMN ( talk) 14:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)