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I notice that the links to the "BK teaching posters" in the article forward you to a site that doesn't appear to be recognised by the BKs. As they purport to be the teaching posters used by the BKs (rather than any splinter groups), can the author please provide evidence/verification that these posters are indeed official BK teaching posters - or that the site that they are hosted on is a recognised official BK site (as I may be mistaken). I understand a week is a reasonable time for an author to provide the requested information. If it is not forthcoming within that time, I'll delete the entry. Appledell 19:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, On November 17th Riveros11, avyakt7, 72.91.4.91, 72.91.151.117, 72.91.28.223et All, reverted all my citations which were part of the discussion here. His claim was that citations were vandalism, which is what he was asking for which seems contradictory. Today he deleted several sections, including ones with citations by the BBC and Time [1]. I ask now in a most concerned way, is User Riveros afforded some special treatment in that I feel he should have been cited for vandalism for removing my items and for doing so with whole sections today saying that it was under your direction in the edit summary [2] [3] [4]. Please explain as I just spent over $1,500 in research material feeling that I would meet the challenge (since he wants numbers of pages etc) but now feel that fairness is not being afforded to those of us that seek a fair and equitable view of this organisation beyond what has now become a copy of a report/PR view by Riveros. Please note that the references were there in plain view and that not once has Riveros nor any of the IT Team said no they were not true. Using the system to gain what they sought the whole time. What we have here is a piece meal removal of all that their (BKWSU) via their PR Chief KarunaBK wanted removed and the PR spin put in place. See that the very sections that he removed are the very sections Karunabk wanted removed without discussion. Here Riveros is intimidating and busy placing big Stop signs on peoples pages yet feels he is beyond the rules that all must follow: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]
As you may recall I asked for help on November 12th due to his multiple deletions [11]. He said he would cooperate but I see not such cooperation or good will given that he has gone and done the exact thing and removed the citations. I can understand he wants to defend his "Faith" but if he wants a PR point perhaps he can do that in his website http:/www.godhascome.com.
I will await your response. TalkAbout 21:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The EL section needs to be pruned. Please read WP:EL for some useful guidelines on what to link to and what to avoid linking to. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Following Jossi's suggestion, I propose the following deletions from the external links: In the ex-bk section, deletion of brahmakumaris.info - as it contains a lot of the unfounded assertions that Jossi termed not appropriate above (eg child abuse claims, etc). This is in breach of the links policy on wikipedia, which prohibits the linking to "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research." I would also question the reason for having links to "ex bk sites" at all. Would any other faith/organisation have links to ex-members of their wikipedia articles? What is the relevance? There may be relevant reasons that someone can provide for keeping this section - but if not, I will delete it. I also propose deleting all the PBK links - as they are an organisation that are not part of the BKs or have any official relationship with the BKs. For the same reason, I also propose the link to the "Vishnu Party" be deleted. I will allow a week for the author/s who put up the various links I mention to verify the reasons for them to stay. Appledell 10:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sethie, i am not here comment to create more tension, i do apologies if this has happened, but i feel health and safety advice should be given to individuals, as people can live in a way without knowing, can harm themselfs or develop symptoms which will result into something more tedious to resolve, which i am able to see in here. as a psychologist so i feel some what irresponsible if i can see issues that people are displaying and not give information/advice in how to deal with the situation. i made this comment public as he/she is not the only. And when i sign with the ~ it comes up with jp auto. again i do apologize things were taken wrongly. ;) Jesselp 13:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear All, On Nov. 22nd a post was made regarding the seven day course. We have not received any support on this as far as reliable sources to back up the explanations in it. As pointed out before, it will be very hard to find an expert explanation on it. However, there are a couple of links to the BK site which fully explain the expected content on these classes. If there are not reliable sources available then this content will be erased on Dec.7th. (Note that 15 days have been given). Thank you. Best Wishes, avyakt7 10:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Achievements were better in bullet point form. dont need an essay for it.
jesselp 19:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi
The Million Minutes of Peace was not a UN project as stated. It was a BKWSU project. Factual error. Removed running courses as achievement. Hardly ...
195.82.106.244 03:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
OK. I am challenging the removal of mediumship and channelling from intro and have replaced it as per earlier edits. The reason for this is plain. It is the one single element that so distinguishes BK Raja Yoga from Classical Raja Yoga and this has to be made clear. The academics all refer to it so there is no objection from that corner. It also highlights the issue that Shiva, the channelled being that is being mediumistically channelled through Kirpalani and Gulzar, cannot easily be referred to as "God" without qualification. One can state that the BKWSU believes that is it God but as the concept is so radically different from any other world religion, and would bring it into immediate conflict with all of them, we have to go cautious on this claim and not pander to BKWSU propaganda.
I am sorry but one can no more accept one sociologists view of yogic or psychic matters where they repeat BKWSU obfuscation of this matter, than one would accept Einstein's expertise in violin playing; because they are outside of their specialism. In preference, we have to rely on the organization's own original material. 195.82.106.244 05:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I see Luis is wanting to remove third party links that expose or criticize the BKWSU.
I had a look at similar topic on the Wiki, e.g. Scientologists or Moonies, and I see that the topic include links to such critical/opposing or balance views and so I see no difference to why the BKWSU article should exclude them.
Ditto, to "Controversies" and so I am restoring that section as well. The references to these have already been discussed on these pages.
Thanks. 195.82.106.244 05:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
OK. Back to basics.
I propose replacing the word "front" with "affiliated" organisation. The use of the word "front" is clearly loaded and implies the organisation is trying to hide behind the identity of these other organisations. Better to just state that these other organisations are affiliated to the BKs - it's up to the individual to decide if they are "fronts" or just natural extensions of the BKs work. I also propose deleting the phrase: "At events promoted by any one of these entities, one might find other BKs present under the mantle of "representing" one of the other organizations rather than the BKWSU in a self-reciprocating manner." This is just commentary and contains sinister undertones, which is not relevant. I will amend within a week, unless a suitable argument can be put up. Appledell 10:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, I am glad to see you back again! However, you know the rules of Wikipedia. You must discuss your proposed changes here before you attempt to change anything in this article. Note the ample margin which is given to you and supporters to come up with reliable sources. On the other hand, you just appear after a prolonged absence and change things around... Please act in a civil fashion. I will be more than happy to discuss things with you here. I have the time...plenty of time. I have posted a warning sign in your talk page, actually you deserve the "last warning" because you are recurrent, but again...you deserve a chance.
I will revert the article back as it was. You have been warned. You know that we are following procedures clearly outlined to us by admin Jossi. One more time, please behave correctly. Best Wishes, avyakt7 13:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Appledell, Once the article has been reverted by someone without previous discussion, that article will be reverted back again. Thus, whatever changes you made will be gone as well. I suggest if you could revert the article back to its version now ( containing Dr. Walliss correction of his last name, ver Nov 28, 2006 13:33) and make your changes there, if they have been previously discussed here. If you gave a notice on previous links and the time has elapsed without response, you may go ahead and make the proposed changes. Thank you and Best Wishes, avyakt7 13:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have added the controvery tag to this talk page. Assuming no one objects to me placing it (if so, please discuss here), that does make it actual policy for this page that every significant change BE DISCUSSED HERE, after the change, and that you place descriptions in the edit summary field.
Given the current climate, I concur with Riveros that disucssion should happen BEFORE major change.... and this is the best I know how to move in that direction. Sethie 15:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Sethie, Thank you for your constructive suggestion. Best,
avyakt7 16:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Maleabroad, I have placed a "last warning" tag for vandalizing this page and reverted the article. You will be blocked again if you continue. Best, avyakt7 21:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Let me explain to you what Karma is. Karma is a rule that souls have to practice good. If they practice good, the supreme nature (or "Brahman") will award them. If however, a soul dooes bad deeds, they are in trouble. Good Karma has to be practiced by a soul. You might not consider yourself a Hindu, but BK is based mostly around Shiva. Non-Hindu BKs do not have to accept Shiva but since He is focused around so much, I think it is necessary to mention Him. Maleabroad
Yes, karma is theirs, they can choose their karma. If you respect the Brahma Kumaris you will have to respect the Hindu Dharma, to which the group is oriented. The Brahma Kumari founder was a Hindu observing Hinduism and made His organization so that people of any religion can become close to God and even hoped to united all religions against irreligiousity. Whenever someone with no Indian/Hindu background makes bizzare claims, we Hindus see it as DISPICIBLE. I will post that Lord Shiva is the Mahāyogi (Sanskrit/Hindi महायोगी) and Ekambaranatha [Sanskrit/Hindi एकम्बरनथ]. In fact, it belongs in this article! I will also mention that His Holyness, the Brahma Baba chose Mount Abu as the BK center because it is a holy site, a pilgrimage for Hindus. - Maleabroad
Your unspoken accusation that non-BK's have nothing of worth to add to wikipedia is ... well against the grain of wikipedia! If that is your deep-felt belief, my reccomendation is that you go somewhere else. And, would you be willing to sign your posts like everyone else, using 4 ~. Not only will it make the disucssion easier to follow- not signing like everyone else, at lease for me, and probably other editors as well lowers your credibility here. Sethie 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Sethie, a non-BKs saying who a BK is like a kafir saying who a Muslim is. What a kafir says that Islamilis/ Druze are not Muslims?? Muslims will get offended. - Maleabroad
Luis, I appreciate that you are taking Shrimat on all this from your senior sister. It is clear that you are working for the BKWSU and so I appreciate your position BUT screaming "vandal" at an individual that is plainly a fairly inexperience newcomer is against wiki guideline of Please do not bite the newcomers.
Just stop Luis. It his opinion, it is different from your. It not vandalism. He just needs a polite word and help. Stop dumping vandalism tags on other contributor's talk pages, playing the game to supress others through intimidation.
I am perfectly happy to play by the rules and use the references provided. I am happy that we have now clarified the BKWSU's own self published sources as it will make my life much easier.
No angry mastodons either, eh? ... 195.82.106.244 03:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the reference to UN relationship as at present it is uncited. What happened is that the BKWSU was cautioned by the UN for over use or over exaggeration of the UN relationship. I guess someone will have to write to the UN to clarify this or wait until an academic or media picks up on this. The rest are all adequately referenced previously.
I left in the child abuse stuff because I found this citation;
Church, A., Edwards, L. and Romain, E. (1990) Cooperation in the Classroom. London, Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University: Global Cooperation for a Better World.
Which substantiates the self-published author of the report on the senior sisters response to the child abuse incidents, Romain, E., as an expert in the field of child care within the BKWSU. Indeed a former representative of the BKWSU.
195.82.106.244 05:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Appledell, I'm a graduate student that's just joined Wiki. Nice to meet you. I just looked up the Brahma Kumaris on the United Nations website and came up with 10 pages of references to the Brahma Kumaris and their activities within the official UN website Is that not reliable information? I am still learning the ropes, but from what I understand that should make the connection between the BKWSU and the UN verifiable.
OK, I've reverted the page as - again - user 244 has made wholesale changes withour prior discussion or warning on this page. That breaches the guidelines set out by admin Jossi and Sethie for this article. Appledell 09:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, You have been given warnings. There is a policy for this talk page which Sethie helped to set up to avoid further tensions. Admin Jossi as well has been very clear as to what is proper in this article and what is not. It is evident to me that you have other intensions besides informing the readers of wikipedia in a neutral way. Your activities leave me with no choice but to report you for repeated vandalism and for disobeying regulations clearly stated in this page.. and of course for removing a warning tag in your talk page. Hope you understand that using "force" rather than a friendly discussion will not take you any place. Thank you Appledell for reverting the page. Best, avyakt7 13:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
If you want your edits to remain, you would be better advised to find good sources that report the criticism. If such criticism exist, it will be most certainly reported by scholarly articles, books on the subject, encyclopedias of religion, journals, etc. Do some research, find these sources and then develop a criticism section that is well supported by solid references, and then your edits will stay unchallenged. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I am reverting to the earlier edit, taking into consideration the recent citations/criticism that was changed without discussion.
'What happened is that Riveros11,
195.82.106.244 23:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
To involved editors: There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Please do not make them. It is your responsibility to foster and maintain a positive online community in Wikipedia.
Some suggestions:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not getting involved in a "reverting war". It's clearly not conducive to wikipedia ethics. But I have deleted various things from .244's reverted version that has been discussed above - including the controvery section, link to brahmakumaris.info, link to BK teaching posters , link to PBK and Vishnu Party sites. All of these were done after having given 7 days notice to discuss them (look back up this discussion forum if you are unsure). Please do not revert back to your version by deleting my changes (which had also taken effect in Riveros's version on the same basis). Appledell 01:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering about the "Rape and physical violence from families and partners of Brahma Kumaris." bit.
This refers to firstly, the time a high profile case that was reported in the Australian press of which my sympathies lay entirely with the sister victim; and secondly during beginning of the BKWSU when it was called Om Mandali. This was refered to in Adi Dev and Purity and, I think, the "world rejecting" academic papaer. I must did it out. It does seem to have been formative in the orgs world view about "anit-parties" and sex lust as violence.
Should it not be kept? Let's go thrugh these one by one instead of the blanket whitewash approach please.
195.82.106.244 01:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Reverted page to Appledell's version with erased unreferenced material. User .244 keeps blanking his talk page from all warnings ignoring recent policy to discuss before changes. User was reported for vandalism. Best, avyakt7 02:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
To all involved editors: Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you.. Alternatively, I will not hesitate locking the article if the edit warring continues. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add that user 244 is making wholesale rip-and-replace edits of large sections of the article without prior discussion with text that is poorly cited and full of loaded statements, bias, weasel words and contentious claims [15] whereas the other editors are proposing changes in advance on the discussion page as per consensus. Best Wishes, avyakt7 19:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Can I suggest removing some of the External links, starting with the BK links:
Under Bibliography, I suggest the following deletion:
OK,
so which Admin would like to take up this matter?
Riveros11 slapped another vandalism tag on me using the IP;
72.91.169.22,
[16], here
[17]. I removed it. Sockpuppetry and personal attack, or just a cynical and dishonest ploy to block other users to gain control over a topic for his group?
The user page for
72.91.169.22 is faked up to look like;
maleabroad,
[18] complete with bad Indian-English speling
This is an important detail as we wil see later. It says;
" User:72.91.169.22 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How am I vandalising? I was deelteing anti-Hindu propangda trying to create a wedge between BKs and Hindus co-religionists. No racism will be tolerated! "
If you look at the user contribution for
maleabroad, here
[19], you will see the same anti-hindu proganda stuff used on the
BKWSU page, here
[20]
Revision as of 16:38, 21 November 2006 maleabroad m (deleted anti-Hindu propaganda user trying to create drift between BK brothers and Hindu co-religionists)
However, looking at the archive of maleabroad, Luis
Riveros11 slapped a vandalism tag on
maleabroad from the same IP address in Tampa; 72.91.169.22 (72.91.169.22 [ pool-72-91-169-22.tampfl.fios.verizon.net ]),
[21] where Luis or Avyakt7 as he likes to call himself says;
" Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University
Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. 72.91.169.22 03:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC) AVYAKT7 "
Luis is of course a teacher and recruiter for the BKWSU Raja Yoga center in Tampa. See documentation of his talks, here [22], [23] etc.
If we look at the user contribution for
72.91.169.22
[28] we see that he has used it soley to attack me ... and once for
maleabroad.
If we look at his own user page for ... we see that despite making all the edits to BKWSU he has not once used it to make an IP vandalism report [29] and only once a personal attack report.
If we look at the other IP address is uses 72.91.4.91 [ pool-72-91-4-91.tampfl.fios.verizon.net ] also Tampa Verizon and used for making vandalism attacks on Maleabroad [30]
If we look at user contributions for Tampa Verizon 72.91.4.91; here, [31], we see they are again solely focused on the BKWSU, maleabroad and myself.
If we look at user contributions for 71.251.88.110 = [ pool-71-251-88-110.tampfl.fios.verizon.net ] is also Tampa Verizon; here, [32], we see they are again solely focused on the BKWSU and myself.
From 25/26 October 2006 when he first engaged in editing, he has been a one track record
[33] Vandalism, Vandalism, Vandalism, Vandalism and whole load of admin tricks to block others ... no wonder he has been to busy to actually discussion, mediation
[34] or arbitration
[35]. Except on others pages
[36] where he seeks advice and attempt to discredit me and similarly hitting other first contributors, e.g.
[37].
I have no doubt that this is not exhaustive but it is exhausting ...
I would like to point out that the same team are also at work on Google Answers having critical or even independent pieces about the BKWSU removed, e.g. [38] which is now http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=206345, Yahoo and elsewhere. Yes, Wikipedia Foundation will be targetted next if they has not already done so. Scratch me and I will bleed citations.
195.82.106.244 05:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Both pro and con users need to learn that neither of you will "win" by attempting to game the system, if that is what you are thinking of doing. Sooner or later you will be either banned permanently, blocked for long periods of time, or put under a community ban to edit these articles.
The only way to resolve your differences is to accept the fact the neither of you will have an article which you would be 100% satisfied with. Best you can expect is having a article that "you can live with."
So, rather than using multiple IPs, making threats, reverting each other, etc. I invite you to collaborate and fix this article. If you cannot /would not do that, save yourself a lot of aggravation, stress and wasted time and stop right now as it will accomplish nothing beyond getting blocked/banned. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, To even suggest that user Maleabroad is somehow related with me is a strong defamation. [40] look at this. Perhaps you did not have the chance to read the "talk" I am having with him just a bit above this under "To user Maleabroad."
User Maleabroad was blocked at one point as well, just like you. He was using several Ips coming from the university of Calgary in Canada. Please stop trying to make me "famous" here. You use my full name, my email to send me stuff from your brahmakumaris.info site, my place of residence and no only that but places of work...So, who will be the admin that will take that?
Perhaps we should rather look into the brahmakumaris.info and your account .244 as sockpuppet. You see, when are you going to answer my simple question? Let me repeat that for you in case you have forgotten: "Are you user brahmakumaris.info?" Hope to hear your answer on this. You are not the only one who can do a "nslookup" or "dig" on someone else's IPs...that is "basic stuff" my friend. You need proof... do not just defame me without it. You see, there is a difference. WHenever I use another IP, I signed beside it as avyakt7. FYI.
Yes.. no everyone has a static IP with them to play with and the leisure to defame BK as well as you do and make it their life purpose. Best Wishes,
avyakt7 15:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Ps: Perhaps we should look at this
[41] here you are doing your "old" trick of a forest fire again... this time using phrases like:
"I would like to point out that the same team are also at work on Google Answers" - Proof? How is this relevant to Wikipedia?
"Scratch me and I will bleed citations."
"Luis is of course a teacher and recruiter for the BKWSU Raja Yoga center in Tampa." (I wonder how am I a recruiter? and what this has to do with wikipedia?) Aren't you an ex-recruiter?
Best,
avyakt7 15:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to get back to the topic, I found a citation to back up external charitable giving of the BKWSU, it is here [42]. Relief to the victims of the Indian tsunami from The Hindu, Wednesday, Jan 05, 2005.
Actually, it is not great news for an NGO that pulls $2 million per year from one European country alone. All it says is that "Bed sheets, foodstuff, clothes and vessels "worth" about Rs.10 lakhs had been rushed to the different places in the last few days." 10 lakhs is about $20,000 but it does not state whether these items were new, second hand, theirs or pulled from third parties. So, I am not convinced that it is notable nor that the org engages in alleviating poverty etc as it claims. Sorry. Back to the BKs for an answer on this one. 195.82.106.244 09:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Before we proceed, we really have to address this issue which Luis has been blocking me on and ignoring, the use of self-published sources.
Now Jossi, you have stated that;
The policy itself states;
Now, I can go find more references but I feel that I have already provided them because Chander's and the BKWSU's later correspondence course are referenced on the article. [Or were before the BKWSU team got to work on it]. Luis is not denying that these are in any way false. I see no problem in leaving the section, it is utterly relevant to their notability and is not contentious. I think the BKWSU wants to remove it but it does not want it exposed, a bit like the Scientology folk react.
Jossi, Riveros is going to steamroller me on this one. You have seen the IP stuff that is going on, what do I do? 195.82.106.244 22:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
May I make a suggestion? Rather than editwar, why don't editors spend some time at a good library and provide third-party sources for this article? I quick check on the scholarly sources databases I have available, shows plenty of third-party material about the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
A user named Bkwatch has archived a lot of "live" conversations. Jossi- any hint/clue how to bring them back?
To Bkwatch- would you be willing to not archive something in the future if it has been active in the last two weeks? Sethie 00:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All,
BKwatch is another alias of user .244 FYI. See this
[43]
Best,
avyakt7 02:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All, The unreferenced material was deleted from the article as previously discussed and after a 2 week period. Best Wishes, avyakt7 14:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All,
I propose deletion of the following items under Bibliography.
Do not see the relevance of this book. It is a series of teachings by Daddi Janki which are not related with informing about BK and not used in this article.
These 3 items do not have all required information to be considered under Bibliography. Date, edition, author, publishing house, pages used are not specified. Incomplete information.
As stated by Admin Jossi, this is non relevant information and it is not related with BK.
Do not know the relevance of this work as Bibliography. What are the author's credentials? Andy is an ex-bk.
Both of these are not relevant to BK as stated by Admin Jossi (child abuse case) and pamphlets are not considered Bibliography and I would like to know how this pamphlet was used to write this article.
Any thoughts? Best, avyakt7 14:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The sources that I originally refered to were the original PBIVV published 7 Days Course by Jagdish Chander. various editions, and then the revision "Correspondence Course" by Jayanti Kripalani published by the BKWSU. Additional materials/qualifications were taken from "Eternal Drama of Souls, Matter and God" by Chander, Mt Abu 1983.
None of these are "secret", or non-public, as with the 1990s teachers training manual that also referenced which includes identical details. All of them were purchasable by the general public. It is possible to still buy them. Copies are even held in major major libraries, e.g. University of Washington or British Library.
The important issue for me to establish here is that within the limits above, publications by the PBIVV/BKWSU are acceptable sources. 195.82.106.244 00:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244,
I wrote in your talk page that I was willing to "negotiate" with you after I received an "invitation" from you. [45] You requested either arbitration or mediation. I answered to you that I was fine with it and selected Arbitration. I told you that I wouldn't revert the page, even though I could and I will unless I hear from you today. I am not willing to play your games anymore and even though I am showing that you have been quite tricky in your dealings with us (are you brahmakumaris.info?) I have been patient enough by following admins advice however, with no support from them when the time comes. I would like to show you this page as well [46] What are you trying to do? You know that you will get some people upset with those comments about BK and Hinduism. Here is your complaint [47] that I have refused arbitration. You know it is not true. Here [48] 'user Thatcher is willing to restore the arbitration petition you made. Lastly, I requested to have the page reverted as it was before your revert.. while we wait for the process. Do not complain again that I am not willing to go the "middle way discussion or involve third parties, e.g. arbitration or mediation." As far as I am concerned it is you who is unwilling to do it. Perhaps you feel that you can continue "free and clear" now? I seriously doubt it.
Best Wishes, avyakt7 20:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Now we see who is really "desperate"...Sure..and next time please review your talk page thoroughly... you don't want to miss my replies. Let me gather my extensive documentation on this...just when I started to like the article.. oh well! Best,
avyakt7 14:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes.. I have. See, I follow up with what I say. Best, avyakt7 14:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
There is clear disagreement about Maleabroad's suggested changes (see discussion above) - but he went ahead and made the changes anyway. So I have removed his changes until a consensus can be achieved on these pages first. Appledell 19:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
195.82.106.244 01:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Luis, it is not for you to dictate.
" ... you cannot quote Chander ".
Of course, I or anyone else can. And it does not require to be verbatim either. If it was published; complete, detailed and objective is not biased. Ditto other materials such as the teaching posters but we will leave that for later. Actually, I checked and they are in Chander too.
195.82.106.244 01:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Maleabroad; You have not provided reliable sources for your claims. What prompts you to make those changes? We have not finished with our discussion yet... Best, avyakt7 02:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the teaching posters. As I mentioned above, there are strict guidelines on what can be linked to. The website that is hosting the posters is not a BK site (unless someone can show it is?), so there can be the danger that those posters are not genuine. Also, if the posters are genuine then it is likely that it is copyright infringement to host them. Therefore linking to a site that has content which could be an infringement of copyright cannot be used under wikipedia links policy. If you have a problem with that, discuss it here first before re-imposing the links. Appledell 11:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm proposing to remove links and references to http://www.bkwsu-critique.com and homepages.nildram.co.uk/~eromain/childprotection.htm Both of these sites are personal websites. They are also not academic works. I'll allow 7 days for discussion before deletion. Appledell 11:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Jossi; As you can see the article has been changed by user .244 again. It is hard not to quote you when you have stated some rules and even user Sethie's input has been accepted (discuss before posting specially in major changes) I will not revert this page this time to honor what I believe is a "gentleman" agreement. Please note that changes by user .244 do not have a single reliable source. The paragraph about "Believes and Practices" was modified according to your suggestion so it is not a straight quote from Kranenborg.. now is not even there... even the credibility of Professor Kranenborg is doubted. It is very hard to deal with individuals who do not want to provide reliable sources and who have not added a single worthwhile reference to this article. User .244 claims that I have used Chander. He does not realize that I have quoted a professor or researcher who has used him. I do not know the level of education user .244 or Maleabroad have but certainly, I wonder if an encyclopedia could ever be written with such input. Best Wishes, avyakt7 14:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
<<<(outdent) I did a quick check on a few online databases of scholarly books, articles and journals, and found no lack of sources. I would suggest to look into these as a way to enhance the article with such secondary sources. Involved editors could also assist with the research by taking some time to visit their local libraries in search for such materials. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC) Some examples:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Some more:
There is plenty of material is one makes a little effort to look for it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems we really need some hold-off before making substantial edits to the artilce. I get the impression the present situation isn't manageable. May I suggest we upgrade the {{Controversial3}} to a {{Controversial}} tag? It looks like this... {{ Controversial}} Is this OK with everyone? Regards Bksimonb 19:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All, I just wanted to point out that I finally got the chance to post my side on user .244 request for arbitration. [57] It is an account on how I view this issue. I have also added several "diffs" which I hope admins will take a look at them. These "diffs" portray a pretty accurate account on user .244 activities, intentions and character. These "diffs" are factual. It is not my own "paraphrasing." Finally, perhaps I should have added this [58] as well, which emphasizes .244 feelings. I thought .244 was younger than me! [59]...but then he calls me "young hot head." Such is the paradox... One more time, the seed of the problem in my view is content. We need reliable sources here. Best Wishes, avyakt7 13:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Ps: I noted that the way used here to find "sockpuppets" is by simple noting on which side of the world IPs and user names are coming (according to arbitration). I have not seen something about brahmakumaris.info and 195.82.106.244 yet... Are they coming from different sides of the world as well? or perhaps just England? Very curious about it. Om Shanti. avyakt7 13:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Below is what I have posted in the arbitration: Dear SimonP; please take a look at this link [60] and this [61] If this is not considered to be a strong proof of user 195.82.106.244 sockpuppet with brahmakumaris.info and bkwsuwatch.. It will really surprise me that the obvious cannot be seen. BTW, If you have the chance to read all of his writings in the above mentioned post, you shall see that the root of the problem is content alone. That kind of content is just wrong for an on-line encyclopedia. Thank you. Best avyakt7 01:09, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Ps: Here [62] you will see the comments below the video in Spanish. Take a look at "bkwsuwatch" endorsing brahmakumaris.info site... Let us see how is this being handled... Best Wishes, avyakt7 01:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Really gotta hand it to you 244 - when it comes to denial no-one can brass it quite like you! searchin man 23:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The following extensive edits by User:195.82.106.244 seem to have been made without seeking editor consensus [67]. The version that maleabroad reverted to [68], although not such as easy read, was at least discussed, and given reasonable time, only replacing text which was deemed not to be adequately cited or not meeting Wikipedia's policy requirements.
I am not going to revert it myself straight away since I understand the situation here is a bit delicate right now. I would like to know what the other editors and admins monitoring this page think of the edit in question.
Actually, credit where credit is due, much of the "bold edit" looks quite neutral this time which is quite encouraging. However I feel that it is also really important to have a harmonious working relationship amongst the active editors on this article. We have agreed a "controversial" tag to acknowledge that bold edits are going to need discussion and consensus before being implemented. User:195.82.106.244, could you please indicate if you are able to work with us on this?
Dear All, I reverted the page again. Before making changes we need to discuss here.
New user making changes already. Our agreed policy in this article is to discuss before making changes. Best,
avyakt7 00:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
OK Jossi,
request for opinion on references already and other. I have more but we will take this slowly.
It has an international print circulation of 100,000 plus, consultants to US President select committee, Ford Foundation sponsored and world's first desktop publishing network.
To start with, I would like to add to the references about the use of mediums within the BKWSU given by Howell, Walliss, Whaling and others for the channelling of the spirit they call God and their deceased founder Kirpalani. In the follow copy of a printed article, it is reported in the words of a Director of the BKWSU's herself how the deceased senior administrator Didi Manmohini came back from beyond the grave, was channelled through one of their mediums and gave messages about her experiences. Online archive of October 83 publication, here; [76].
A history of the Sindhi people of which Kirpalani and the BKs were members. To establish its credibility, K.R. Malkani was Lt. Governor of Pondicherry (i.e. Senator) and Vice-President of India's major center right political party the Bharatiya Janata Party from 1990 to 1995. Vice-President of the Deendayal Research Institute, New Delhi from 1983 to 1990. He was a member of Rajya Sabha (Senate) from 1994 to 2000. Born where Kirpalani started his movement at Hyderabad in the Sindh in November, 1921, he also served as editor of many newspapers, was General Secretary of the Editors Guild of India from 1977 to 1978.
I wish to use it to support the version of the early days of the Om Mandali and Om Niwas movement and the reaction from the families and Bhaibund community.
Please note that these references have been already but were removed because presumably the other editors have not read the book but frankly, racism towards the India point of view aside, Malkani is somewhat of an expert, the book is in English and as such any of his research is not primary reasearch on my behalf. The articles have been archived by third parties including academic facilities.
And I raise the suitability of the references added by Andries which I support and consider to be a perfectly adequate source.
195.82.106.244 04:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Heya Andries, please see that tag at the top of this page "controversial" and the disuccsion about the controversial tag. We've agreeded, as a page that all substantial changes will be disucssed first. I agree that 99% of the time, undiscussed is not a valid reason for reversion. However, this page, for the first time in.... months agreeded to something- that this is how we'd operate. If that doesn't feel right to you, would you be willing to disucss that under the controversial tag section? Sethie 05:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I think the membership figure is old. Also, I'd be uneasy using the word "aggressively". Although having said that, I think it is an interesting and worthy point that the Brahma Kumaris are quite unusual in that they do have a high conversion rate for an organisation of its size and history. Appledell 20:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
With all the BK contributors on board here, why;
I asked for this ages ago. All the academics are depending on the so called 'official figures' as 'actually figures' have not been independently reviewed. On that basis, it is probably best to leave any figure out or qualify it as a "claim".
Regarding the founding, the BKWSU was not founded in the 30s. The precursor OM Mandali was. In truth, BKWSU does not appear to have been founded anywhere until the 70s. It is just a sort of trading name for a variety of Trusts. Name and date the trusts please. Again, with so many BK contributors, why;
195.82.106.244 08:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I want to qualify my reservation on the use of the full Kranenborg quote in the first paragraph again.
In short, it may be good PR for the BKWSU but it is unsustainable until references are provided to sustain it.
The centrality of spiritual mediumship and the connection with the channelled beings the BKs call Shiva and Bapadada is on the other hand concurrent throughout many of the academics and their own literature. It is the most defining difference between their practise and others understanding of the terms. No BapDada, no BKWSU. The unchallenged reference to additional channelling carries additional weight in this argument.
Can I suggest a separate category within the article on "The BKWSU use of mediums" or mediumship?
195.82.106.244 08:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone has missed it, the BKWSU Arbitration case is open and here; [79] 195.82.106.244 08:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
There was a whole section on BK lifestyle deleted. It was concurrent with exact quotations from Whaling, e.g. 4 am ... 6.30am, strict acetiscism etc. Why was it removed?
As far as I can see it was accurate and non-contentious. 195.82.106.244 05:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
OK. Now the article has been re-written, what remains that is NPOV or unreferenced? Is it not time that tag is removed? 195.82.106.244 10:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Please discuss a bit here before making your changes. You know, some of us have a life besides Wikipedia.. patience is a good virtue...I have been very busy writing my little report on ".244 whereabouts and talkabaouts in a nutshell."- Limited edition. Thus, I apologize for not getting back sooner. I will revert the article again. Best, avyakt7 14:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Perhaps you could explain a bit about this: [80] Are you trying to "branch out" your field of influence? Isn't this page enough for you? That is a POV and libel unless you have proof. "Paraphrasing" has a different meaning when it comes from animosity. Best Wishes, 72.91.169.22 22:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC) avyakt7
The movement teaches the imminent "end of the world" that must be prepared fo...
The end of the world is a phrase used to most commonly refer to the death of all life on planet earth. When used, an individual could be explaining the result of a catastrophe.
This could be explained slightly clearer, as they don't teach that all life on this planet earth will end. they take about a "new world" on this earth, but not total death for everyone and everything.
jesselp 08:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244,
Ok. Let us discuss. I took my 6 hours off now I am ready... 1) Mediums: The word is channeling. The article (which will be reverted) had mentioned this at least once. What is your issue with this? Any other problems? 2) issue with Andreas: The article pointed out the words NRM and Religion when referring to Brahma Kumaris. As far as I can see the word in discussion was" Agressive." What would you like to post? BTW, I asked a question which wasn't even acknowledge. What is your interest in this article? You do not seem BK nor Ex-BK, a little search about you in wikipedia gives an idea of your interests, however; whether you want to answer this question or not, at least say so. You want me to answer your questions, likewise answer mine. Otherwise, it will look "poorly on me." alone, as Sethie put it.
Will revert article again. Best, avyakt7 13:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I've taken off that tag from the article - it's not been discussed on this page. Also, I'd contest the claim that it reads like an advertisement - I can't find a single positive adjective in any of the wording. Unless the problem lies with the "Achievements" section - in which case that should also be discussed here. I can understand how that could be viewed as an "advertisement". Appledell 15:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All, All of the sudden we have this flux of new accounts wanting to contribute... Dear .244, do you have something to do with this? Who is Smeelgova? why a "cut and paste" from reliable sources become advertisement? without discussion, we cannot reach to any agreement... Smeelgova, please let us know about your contributions to this article first... Will revert article. Best, avyakt7 15:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Sister, Please remember to post your adress and real name... without it I will not be able to find you. Perhaps you would like me to ask for TalkAbout? On the other hand, you are very welcome to come and visit me. You, .244, and everyone who wants to say "hello" to me. You know my name, my place of residence and where to find me at 6 AM... everyday. Thanks to .244!
Happy Holidays, Sis! and keep it light... Best, avyakt7 10:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
May I make a suggestion to involved editors? Given that most of you are engaged in an arbitration case about this and related articles, you may want to consider not editing the article until the arbitration case is completed. For those editors that are not engaged in the arbitration case, you may want to consider being very cautious with your edits as to avoid igniting more flames in this dispute, and to allow the arbitration case to proceed without extra burdens. Note that if any new editors become too involved with this article, they may become de facto parties to the arbitration case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Watch out BKWatch ..be careful what you say...It wouldn't surprise if "many third parties" decided to show up all of the sudden...Your book needs a revision...Best, 70.110.74.202 16:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC) Avyakt7
Hi.
I reverted to the neutral edit as a starting point, and I state stating point.
The main reason for this is really due to the underhand manner in which the previous edit was achieved. I am afraid that I consider this to discredit the previous article and, given the academics assessment of BK evanglism being aggressive, have to view such editing techiques as being equally aggressive by normal standards.
Specifically I am talking about the blocking out of other contributors by intimidation and the use of secret IP user accounts by BK Luis to make admin requests and complaints which doesnot seem to have been acknowledged or commented upon by other contributors. Clearly part of a greater attempt to silence my involvement all together.
We have a problem here because discussion is not going on based on policy. But at least all the bogus vandalism claims and threats have stopped now Luis has been unmasked and the arbcom case has started. So that, at least, is an improvement.
I actually think that the current edit is neutral, better written and entirely concurrent with the academics and factual. If not complete. So rather than just mindlessly erasing it, what are the issues the BKWSU team has with it?
195.82.106.244 01:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Here FYI. [88] It surprises me that you do not recognize yourself... Courtesy of BKinfoWatch. Now, this will truly "undermine your name and appearance of any discussion on this page." How long are your planning to continue with your misrepresentations? Best, 70.110.74.202 16:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC) avyakt7
I replaced the Vallabhacharya references as I believe it is both a fairly innoculous fact whilst also putting into some context Kirpalani's and Om Mandali's later development. The justification for this is based on Vallabhacharya's identification between Krishna and Param Brahman, or Paramdham in BK speak, and all of the other gods of Hinduism as parts or aspects of his all-encompassing being. As a note, the Pushtimarg view of deities other than Krishna is not that they do not exist but that they are inferior to and dependent on Krishna's existence. After a someone is initiated into the sampradaya, Krishna is ideally the only god who is to be worshipped making Vallabhacharya essentially monotheist because of his complete focus on Krishna as deity (even to the the diminishment of Shiva). For more discussion on the BKWSU and this sect, please see Barz.
The BKs, of course, believe that Kirpalani and Krishna are the same soul as referenced elsewhere. 195.82.106.244 03:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
As far as I am aware the mantra "Om Shanti" does not mean "I am a peaceful soul". This is at worst nonsense and at best a very free interpretation of the mantra. May be the Brahma Kumaris believe that the mantra has this meaning but this should be stated as such. This meaning should not be written down as a fact without a reputable third-party source. Andries 14:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I've protected this page as per the request at Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection. A Train take the 15:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I notice that the links to the "BK teaching posters" in the article forward you to a site that doesn't appear to be recognised by the BKs. As they purport to be the teaching posters used by the BKs (rather than any splinter groups), can the author please provide evidence/verification that these posters are indeed official BK teaching posters - or that the site that they are hosted on is a recognised official BK site (as I may be mistaken). I understand a week is a reasonable time for an author to provide the requested information. If it is not forthcoming within that time, I'll delete the entry. Appledell 19:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, On November 17th Riveros11, avyakt7, 72.91.4.91, 72.91.151.117, 72.91.28.223et All, reverted all my citations which were part of the discussion here. His claim was that citations were vandalism, which is what he was asking for which seems contradictory. Today he deleted several sections, including ones with citations by the BBC and Time [1]. I ask now in a most concerned way, is User Riveros afforded some special treatment in that I feel he should have been cited for vandalism for removing my items and for doing so with whole sections today saying that it was under your direction in the edit summary [2] [3] [4]. Please explain as I just spent over $1,500 in research material feeling that I would meet the challenge (since he wants numbers of pages etc) but now feel that fairness is not being afforded to those of us that seek a fair and equitable view of this organisation beyond what has now become a copy of a report/PR view by Riveros. Please note that the references were there in plain view and that not once has Riveros nor any of the IT Team said no they were not true. Using the system to gain what they sought the whole time. What we have here is a piece meal removal of all that their (BKWSU) via their PR Chief KarunaBK wanted removed and the PR spin put in place. See that the very sections that he removed are the very sections Karunabk wanted removed without discussion. Here Riveros is intimidating and busy placing big Stop signs on peoples pages yet feels he is beyond the rules that all must follow: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]
As you may recall I asked for help on November 12th due to his multiple deletions [11]. He said he would cooperate but I see not such cooperation or good will given that he has gone and done the exact thing and removed the citations. I can understand he wants to defend his "Faith" but if he wants a PR point perhaps he can do that in his website http:/www.godhascome.com.
I will await your response. TalkAbout 21:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The EL section needs to be pruned. Please read WP:EL for some useful guidelines on what to link to and what to avoid linking to. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Following Jossi's suggestion, I propose the following deletions from the external links: In the ex-bk section, deletion of brahmakumaris.info - as it contains a lot of the unfounded assertions that Jossi termed not appropriate above (eg child abuse claims, etc). This is in breach of the links policy on wikipedia, which prohibits the linking to "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research." I would also question the reason for having links to "ex bk sites" at all. Would any other faith/organisation have links to ex-members of their wikipedia articles? What is the relevance? There may be relevant reasons that someone can provide for keeping this section - but if not, I will delete it. I also propose deleting all the PBK links - as they are an organisation that are not part of the BKs or have any official relationship with the BKs. For the same reason, I also propose the link to the "Vishnu Party" be deleted. I will allow a week for the author/s who put up the various links I mention to verify the reasons for them to stay. Appledell 10:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sethie, i am not here comment to create more tension, i do apologies if this has happened, but i feel health and safety advice should be given to individuals, as people can live in a way without knowing, can harm themselfs or develop symptoms which will result into something more tedious to resolve, which i am able to see in here. as a psychologist so i feel some what irresponsible if i can see issues that people are displaying and not give information/advice in how to deal with the situation. i made this comment public as he/she is not the only. And when i sign with the ~ it comes up with jp auto. again i do apologize things were taken wrongly. ;) Jesselp 13:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear All, On Nov. 22nd a post was made regarding the seven day course. We have not received any support on this as far as reliable sources to back up the explanations in it. As pointed out before, it will be very hard to find an expert explanation on it. However, there are a couple of links to the BK site which fully explain the expected content on these classes. If there are not reliable sources available then this content will be erased on Dec.7th. (Note that 15 days have been given). Thank you. Best Wishes, avyakt7 10:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Achievements were better in bullet point form. dont need an essay for it.
jesselp 19:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi
The Million Minutes of Peace was not a UN project as stated. It was a BKWSU project. Factual error. Removed running courses as achievement. Hardly ...
195.82.106.244 03:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
OK. I am challenging the removal of mediumship and channelling from intro and have replaced it as per earlier edits. The reason for this is plain. It is the one single element that so distinguishes BK Raja Yoga from Classical Raja Yoga and this has to be made clear. The academics all refer to it so there is no objection from that corner. It also highlights the issue that Shiva, the channelled being that is being mediumistically channelled through Kirpalani and Gulzar, cannot easily be referred to as "God" without qualification. One can state that the BKWSU believes that is it God but as the concept is so radically different from any other world religion, and would bring it into immediate conflict with all of them, we have to go cautious on this claim and not pander to BKWSU propaganda.
I am sorry but one can no more accept one sociologists view of yogic or psychic matters where they repeat BKWSU obfuscation of this matter, than one would accept Einstein's expertise in violin playing; because they are outside of their specialism. In preference, we have to rely on the organization's own original material. 195.82.106.244 05:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I see Luis is wanting to remove third party links that expose or criticize the BKWSU.
I had a look at similar topic on the Wiki, e.g. Scientologists or Moonies, and I see that the topic include links to such critical/opposing or balance views and so I see no difference to why the BKWSU article should exclude them.
Ditto, to "Controversies" and so I am restoring that section as well. The references to these have already been discussed on these pages.
Thanks. 195.82.106.244 05:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
OK. Back to basics.
I propose replacing the word "front" with "affiliated" organisation. The use of the word "front" is clearly loaded and implies the organisation is trying to hide behind the identity of these other organisations. Better to just state that these other organisations are affiliated to the BKs - it's up to the individual to decide if they are "fronts" or just natural extensions of the BKs work. I also propose deleting the phrase: "At events promoted by any one of these entities, one might find other BKs present under the mantle of "representing" one of the other organizations rather than the BKWSU in a self-reciprocating manner." This is just commentary and contains sinister undertones, which is not relevant. I will amend within a week, unless a suitable argument can be put up. Appledell 10:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, I am glad to see you back again! However, you know the rules of Wikipedia. You must discuss your proposed changes here before you attempt to change anything in this article. Note the ample margin which is given to you and supporters to come up with reliable sources. On the other hand, you just appear after a prolonged absence and change things around... Please act in a civil fashion. I will be more than happy to discuss things with you here. I have the time...plenty of time. I have posted a warning sign in your talk page, actually you deserve the "last warning" because you are recurrent, but again...you deserve a chance.
I will revert the article back as it was. You have been warned. You know that we are following procedures clearly outlined to us by admin Jossi. One more time, please behave correctly. Best Wishes, avyakt7 13:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Appledell, Once the article has been reverted by someone without previous discussion, that article will be reverted back again. Thus, whatever changes you made will be gone as well. I suggest if you could revert the article back to its version now ( containing Dr. Walliss correction of his last name, ver Nov 28, 2006 13:33) and make your changes there, if they have been previously discussed here. If you gave a notice on previous links and the time has elapsed without response, you may go ahead and make the proposed changes. Thank you and Best Wishes, avyakt7 13:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have added the controvery tag to this talk page. Assuming no one objects to me placing it (if so, please discuss here), that does make it actual policy for this page that every significant change BE DISCUSSED HERE, after the change, and that you place descriptions in the edit summary field.
Given the current climate, I concur with Riveros that disucssion should happen BEFORE major change.... and this is the best I know how to move in that direction. Sethie 15:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Sethie, Thank you for your constructive suggestion. Best,
avyakt7 16:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Maleabroad, I have placed a "last warning" tag for vandalizing this page and reverted the article. You will be blocked again if you continue. Best, avyakt7 21:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Let me explain to you what Karma is. Karma is a rule that souls have to practice good. If they practice good, the supreme nature (or "Brahman") will award them. If however, a soul dooes bad deeds, they are in trouble. Good Karma has to be practiced by a soul. You might not consider yourself a Hindu, but BK is based mostly around Shiva. Non-Hindu BKs do not have to accept Shiva but since He is focused around so much, I think it is necessary to mention Him. Maleabroad
Yes, karma is theirs, they can choose their karma. If you respect the Brahma Kumaris you will have to respect the Hindu Dharma, to which the group is oriented. The Brahma Kumari founder was a Hindu observing Hinduism and made His organization so that people of any religion can become close to God and even hoped to united all religions against irreligiousity. Whenever someone with no Indian/Hindu background makes bizzare claims, we Hindus see it as DISPICIBLE. I will post that Lord Shiva is the Mahāyogi (Sanskrit/Hindi महायोगी) and Ekambaranatha [Sanskrit/Hindi एकम्बरनथ]. In fact, it belongs in this article! I will also mention that His Holyness, the Brahma Baba chose Mount Abu as the BK center because it is a holy site, a pilgrimage for Hindus. - Maleabroad
Your unspoken accusation that non-BK's have nothing of worth to add to wikipedia is ... well against the grain of wikipedia! If that is your deep-felt belief, my reccomendation is that you go somewhere else. And, would you be willing to sign your posts like everyone else, using 4 ~. Not only will it make the disucssion easier to follow- not signing like everyone else, at lease for me, and probably other editors as well lowers your credibility here. Sethie 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Sethie, a non-BKs saying who a BK is like a kafir saying who a Muslim is. What a kafir says that Islamilis/ Druze are not Muslims?? Muslims will get offended. - Maleabroad
Luis, I appreciate that you are taking Shrimat on all this from your senior sister. It is clear that you are working for the BKWSU and so I appreciate your position BUT screaming "vandal" at an individual that is plainly a fairly inexperience newcomer is against wiki guideline of Please do not bite the newcomers.
Just stop Luis. It his opinion, it is different from your. It not vandalism. He just needs a polite word and help. Stop dumping vandalism tags on other contributor's talk pages, playing the game to supress others through intimidation.
I am perfectly happy to play by the rules and use the references provided. I am happy that we have now clarified the BKWSU's own self published sources as it will make my life much easier.
No angry mastodons either, eh? ... 195.82.106.244 03:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the reference to UN relationship as at present it is uncited. What happened is that the BKWSU was cautioned by the UN for over use or over exaggeration of the UN relationship. I guess someone will have to write to the UN to clarify this or wait until an academic or media picks up on this. The rest are all adequately referenced previously.
I left in the child abuse stuff because I found this citation;
Church, A., Edwards, L. and Romain, E. (1990) Cooperation in the Classroom. London, Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University: Global Cooperation for a Better World.
Which substantiates the self-published author of the report on the senior sisters response to the child abuse incidents, Romain, E., as an expert in the field of child care within the BKWSU. Indeed a former representative of the BKWSU.
195.82.106.244 05:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Appledell, I'm a graduate student that's just joined Wiki. Nice to meet you. I just looked up the Brahma Kumaris on the United Nations website and came up with 10 pages of references to the Brahma Kumaris and their activities within the official UN website Is that not reliable information? I am still learning the ropes, but from what I understand that should make the connection between the BKWSU and the UN verifiable.
OK, I've reverted the page as - again - user 244 has made wholesale changes withour prior discussion or warning on this page. That breaches the guidelines set out by admin Jossi and Sethie for this article. Appledell 09:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, You have been given warnings. There is a policy for this talk page which Sethie helped to set up to avoid further tensions. Admin Jossi as well has been very clear as to what is proper in this article and what is not. It is evident to me that you have other intensions besides informing the readers of wikipedia in a neutral way. Your activities leave me with no choice but to report you for repeated vandalism and for disobeying regulations clearly stated in this page.. and of course for removing a warning tag in your talk page. Hope you understand that using "force" rather than a friendly discussion will not take you any place. Thank you Appledell for reverting the page. Best, avyakt7 13:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
If you want your edits to remain, you would be better advised to find good sources that report the criticism. If such criticism exist, it will be most certainly reported by scholarly articles, books on the subject, encyclopedias of religion, journals, etc. Do some research, find these sources and then develop a criticism section that is well supported by solid references, and then your edits will stay unchallenged. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I am reverting to the earlier edit, taking into consideration the recent citations/criticism that was changed without discussion.
'What happened is that Riveros11,
195.82.106.244 23:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
To involved editors: There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Please do not make them. It is your responsibility to foster and maintain a positive online community in Wikipedia.
Some suggestions:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not getting involved in a "reverting war". It's clearly not conducive to wikipedia ethics. But I have deleted various things from .244's reverted version that has been discussed above - including the controvery section, link to brahmakumaris.info, link to BK teaching posters , link to PBK and Vishnu Party sites. All of these were done after having given 7 days notice to discuss them (look back up this discussion forum if you are unsure). Please do not revert back to your version by deleting my changes (which had also taken effect in Riveros's version on the same basis). Appledell 01:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering about the "Rape and physical violence from families and partners of Brahma Kumaris." bit.
This refers to firstly, the time a high profile case that was reported in the Australian press of which my sympathies lay entirely with the sister victim; and secondly during beginning of the BKWSU when it was called Om Mandali. This was refered to in Adi Dev and Purity and, I think, the "world rejecting" academic papaer. I must did it out. It does seem to have been formative in the orgs world view about "anit-parties" and sex lust as violence.
Should it not be kept? Let's go thrugh these one by one instead of the blanket whitewash approach please.
195.82.106.244 01:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Reverted page to Appledell's version with erased unreferenced material. User .244 keeps blanking his talk page from all warnings ignoring recent policy to discuss before changes. User was reported for vandalism. Best, avyakt7 02:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
To all involved editors: Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you.. Alternatively, I will not hesitate locking the article if the edit warring continues. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add that user 244 is making wholesale rip-and-replace edits of large sections of the article without prior discussion with text that is poorly cited and full of loaded statements, bias, weasel words and contentious claims [15] whereas the other editors are proposing changes in advance on the discussion page as per consensus. Best Wishes, avyakt7 19:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Can I suggest removing some of the External links, starting with the BK links:
Under Bibliography, I suggest the following deletion:
OK,
so which Admin would like to take up this matter?
Riveros11 slapped another vandalism tag on me using the IP;
72.91.169.22,
[16], here
[17]. I removed it. Sockpuppetry and personal attack, or just a cynical and dishonest ploy to block other users to gain control over a topic for his group?
The user page for
72.91.169.22 is faked up to look like;
maleabroad,
[18] complete with bad Indian-English speling
This is an important detail as we wil see later. It says;
" User:72.91.169.22 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How am I vandalising? I was deelteing anti-Hindu propangda trying to create a wedge between BKs and Hindus co-religionists. No racism will be tolerated! "
If you look at the user contribution for
maleabroad, here
[19], you will see the same anti-hindu proganda stuff used on the
BKWSU page, here
[20]
Revision as of 16:38, 21 November 2006 maleabroad m (deleted anti-Hindu propaganda user trying to create drift between BK brothers and Hindu co-religionists)
However, looking at the archive of maleabroad, Luis
Riveros11 slapped a vandalism tag on
maleabroad from the same IP address in Tampa; 72.91.169.22 (72.91.169.22 [ pool-72-91-169-22.tampfl.fios.verizon.net ]),
[21] where Luis or Avyakt7 as he likes to call himself says;
" Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University
Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. 72.91.169.22 03:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC) AVYAKT7 "
Luis is of course a teacher and recruiter for the BKWSU Raja Yoga center in Tampa. See documentation of his talks, here [22], [23] etc.
If we look at the user contribution for
72.91.169.22
[28] we see that he has used it soley to attack me ... and once for
maleabroad.
If we look at his own user page for ... we see that despite making all the edits to BKWSU he has not once used it to make an IP vandalism report [29] and only once a personal attack report.
If we look at the other IP address is uses 72.91.4.91 [ pool-72-91-4-91.tampfl.fios.verizon.net ] also Tampa Verizon and used for making vandalism attacks on Maleabroad [30]
If we look at user contributions for Tampa Verizon 72.91.4.91; here, [31], we see they are again solely focused on the BKWSU, maleabroad and myself.
If we look at user contributions for 71.251.88.110 = [ pool-71-251-88-110.tampfl.fios.verizon.net ] is also Tampa Verizon; here, [32], we see they are again solely focused on the BKWSU and myself.
From 25/26 October 2006 when he first engaged in editing, he has been a one track record
[33] Vandalism, Vandalism, Vandalism, Vandalism and whole load of admin tricks to block others ... no wonder he has been to busy to actually discussion, mediation
[34] or arbitration
[35]. Except on others pages
[36] where he seeks advice and attempt to discredit me and similarly hitting other first contributors, e.g.
[37].
I have no doubt that this is not exhaustive but it is exhausting ...
I would like to point out that the same team are also at work on Google Answers having critical or even independent pieces about the BKWSU removed, e.g. [38] which is now http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=206345, Yahoo and elsewhere. Yes, Wikipedia Foundation will be targetted next if they has not already done so. Scratch me and I will bleed citations.
195.82.106.244 05:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Both pro and con users need to learn that neither of you will "win" by attempting to game the system, if that is what you are thinking of doing. Sooner or later you will be either banned permanently, blocked for long periods of time, or put under a community ban to edit these articles.
The only way to resolve your differences is to accept the fact the neither of you will have an article which you would be 100% satisfied with. Best you can expect is having a article that "you can live with."
So, rather than using multiple IPs, making threats, reverting each other, etc. I invite you to collaborate and fix this article. If you cannot /would not do that, save yourself a lot of aggravation, stress and wasted time and stop right now as it will accomplish nothing beyond getting blocked/banned. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, To even suggest that user Maleabroad is somehow related with me is a strong defamation. [40] look at this. Perhaps you did not have the chance to read the "talk" I am having with him just a bit above this under "To user Maleabroad."
User Maleabroad was blocked at one point as well, just like you. He was using several Ips coming from the university of Calgary in Canada. Please stop trying to make me "famous" here. You use my full name, my email to send me stuff from your brahmakumaris.info site, my place of residence and no only that but places of work...So, who will be the admin that will take that?
Perhaps we should rather look into the brahmakumaris.info and your account .244 as sockpuppet. You see, when are you going to answer my simple question? Let me repeat that for you in case you have forgotten: "Are you user brahmakumaris.info?" Hope to hear your answer on this. You are not the only one who can do a "nslookup" or "dig" on someone else's IPs...that is "basic stuff" my friend. You need proof... do not just defame me without it. You see, there is a difference. WHenever I use another IP, I signed beside it as avyakt7. FYI.
Yes.. no everyone has a static IP with them to play with and the leisure to defame BK as well as you do and make it their life purpose. Best Wishes,
avyakt7 15:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Ps: Perhaps we should look at this
[41] here you are doing your "old" trick of a forest fire again... this time using phrases like:
"I would like to point out that the same team are also at work on Google Answers" - Proof? How is this relevant to Wikipedia?
"Scratch me and I will bleed citations."
"Luis is of course a teacher and recruiter for the BKWSU Raja Yoga center in Tampa." (I wonder how am I a recruiter? and what this has to do with wikipedia?) Aren't you an ex-recruiter?
Best,
avyakt7 15:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to get back to the topic, I found a citation to back up external charitable giving of the BKWSU, it is here [42]. Relief to the victims of the Indian tsunami from The Hindu, Wednesday, Jan 05, 2005.
Actually, it is not great news for an NGO that pulls $2 million per year from one European country alone. All it says is that "Bed sheets, foodstuff, clothes and vessels "worth" about Rs.10 lakhs had been rushed to the different places in the last few days." 10 lakhs is about $20,000 but it does not state whether these items were new, second hand, theirs or pulled from third parties. So, I am not convinced that it is notable nor that the org engages in alleviating poverty etc as it claims. Sorry. Back to the BKs for an answer on this one. 195.82.106.244 09:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Before we proceed, we really have to address this issue which Luis has been blocking me on and ignoring, the use of self-published sources.
Now Jossi, you have stated that;
The policy itself states;
Now, I can go find more references but I feel that I have already provided them because Chander's and the BKWSU's later correspondence course are referenced on the article. [Or were before the BKWSU team got to work on it]. Luis is not denying that these are in any way false. I see no problem in leaving the section, it is utterly relevant to their notability and is not contentious. I think the BKWSU wants to remove it but it does not want it exposed, a bit like the Scientology folk react.
Jossi, Riveros is going to steamroller me on this one. You have seen the IP stuff that is going on, what do I do? 195.82.106.244 22:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
May I make a suggestion? Rather than editwar, why don't editors spend some time at a good library and provide third-party sources for this article? I quick check on the scholarly sources databases I have available, shows plenty of third-party material about the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
A user named Bkwatch has archived a lot of "live" conversations. Jossi- any hint/clue how to bring them back?
To Bkwatch- would you be willing to not archive something in the future if it has been active in the last two weeks? Sethie 00:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All,
BKwatch is another alias of user .244 FYI. See this
[43]
Best,
avyakt7 02:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All, The unreferenced material was deleted from the article as previously discussed and after a 2 week period. Best Wishes, avyakt7 14:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All,
I propose deletion of the following items under Bibliography.
Do not see the relevance of this book. It is a series of teachings by Daddi Janki which are not related with informing about BK and not used in this article.
These 3 items do not have all required information to be considered under Bibliography. Date, edition, author, publishing house, pages used are not specified. Incomplete information.
As stated by Admin Jossi, this is non relevant information and it is not related with BK.
Do not know the relevance of this work as Bibliography. What are the author's credentials? Andy is an ex-bk.
Both of these are not relevant to BK as stated by Admin Jossi (child abuse case) and pamphlets are not considered Bibliography and I would like to know how this pamphlet was used to write this article.
Any thoughts? Best, avyakt7 14:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The sources that I originally refered to were the original PBIVV published 7 Days Course by Jagdish Chander. various editions, and then the revision "Correspondence Course" by Jayanti Kripalani published by the BKWSU. Additional materials/qualifications were taken from "Eternal Drama of Souls, Matter and God" by Chander, Mt Abu 1983.
None of these are "secret", or non-public, as with the 1990s teachers training manual that also referenced which includes identical details. All of them were purchasable by the general public. It is possible to still buy them. Copies are even held in major major libraries, e.g. University of Washington or British Library.
The important issue for me to establish here is that within the limits above, publications by the PBIVV/BKWSU are acceptable sources. 195.82.106.244 00:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244,
I wrote in your talk page that I was willing to "negotiate" with you after I received an "invitation" from you. [45] You requested either arbitration or mediation. I answered to you that I was fine with it and selected Arbitration. I told you that I wouldn't revert the page, even though I could and I will unless I hear from you today. I am not willing to play your games anymore and even though I am showing that you have been quite tricky in your dealings with us (are you brahmakumaris.info?) I have been patient enough by following admins advice however, with no support from them when the time comes. I would like to show you this page as well [46] What are you trying to do? You know that you will get some people upset with those comments about BK and Hinduism. Here is your complaint [47] that I have refused arbitration. You know it is not true. Here [48] 'user Thatcher is willing to restore the arbitration petition you made. Lastly, I requested to have the page reverted as it was before your revert.. while we wait for the process. Do not complain again that I am not willing to go the "middle way discussion or involve third parties, e.g. arbitration or mediation." As far as I am concerned it is you who is unwilling to do it. Perhaps you feel that you can continue "free and clear" now? I seriously doubt it.
Best Wishes, avyakt7 20:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Now we see who is really "desperate"...Sure..and next time please review your talk page thoroughly... you don't want to miss my replies. Let me gather my extensive documentation on this...just when I started to like the article.. oh well! Best,
avyakt7 14:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes.. I have. See, I follow up with what I say. Best, avyakt7 14:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
There is clear disagreement about Maleabroad's suggested changes (see discussion above) - but he went ahead and made the changes anyway. So I have removed his changes until a consensus can be achieved on these pages first. Appledell 19:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
195.82.106.244 01:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Luis, it is not for you to dictate.
" ... you cannot quote Chander ".
Of course, I or anyone else can. And it does not require to be verbatim either. If it was published; complete, detailed and objective is not biased. Ditto other materials such as the teaching posters but we will leave that for later. Actually, I checked and they are in Chander too.
195.82.106.244 01:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Maleabroad; You have not provided reliable sources for your claims. What prompts you to make those changes? We have not finished with our discussion yet... Best, avyakt7 02:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the teaching posters. As I mentioned above, there are strict guidelines on what can be linked to. The website that is hosting the posters is not a BK site (unless someone can show it is?), so there can be the danger that those posters are not genuine. Also, if the posters are genuine then it is likely that it is copyright infringement to host them. Therefore linking to a site that has content which could be an infringement of copyright cannot be used under wikipedia links policy. If you have a problem with that, discuss it here first before re-imposing the links. Appledell 11:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm proposing to remove links and references to http://www.bkwsu-critique.com and homepages.nildram.co.uk/~eromain/childprotection.htm Both of these sites are personal websites. They are also not academic works. I'll allow 7 days for discussion before deletion. Appledell 11:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Jossi; As you can see the article has been changed by user .244 again. It is hard not to quote you when you have stated some rules and even user Sethie's input has been accepted (discuss before posting specially in major changes) I will not revert this page this time to honor what I believe is a "gentleman" agreement. Please note that changes by user .244 do not have a single reliable source. The paragraph about "Believes and Practices" was modified according to your suggestion so it is not a straight quote from Kranenborg.. now is not even there... even the credibility of Professor Kranenborg is doubted. It is very hard to deal with individuals who do not want to provide reliable sources and who have not added a single worthwhile reference to this article. User .244 claims that I have used Chander. He does not realize that I have quoted a professor or researcher who has used him. I do not know the level of education user .244 or Maleabroad have but certainly, I wonder if an encyclopedia could ever be written with such input. Best Wishes, avyakt7 14:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
<<<(outdent) I did a quick check on a few online databases of scholarly books, articles and journals, and found no lack of sources. I would suggest to look into these as a way to enhance the article with such secondary sources. Involved editors could also assist with the research by taking some time to visit their local libraries in search for such materials. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC) Some examples:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Some more:
There is plenty of material is one makes a little effort to look for it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems we really need some hold-off before making substantial edits to the artilce. I get the impression the present situation isn't manageable. May I suggest we upgrade the {{Controversial3}} to a {{Controversial}} tag? It looks like this... {{ Controversial}} Is this OK with everyone? Regards Bksimonb 19:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All, I just wanted to point out that I finally got the chance to post my side on user .244 request for arbitration. [57] It is an account on how I view this issue. I have also added several "diffs" which I hope admins will take a look at them. These "diffs" portray a pretty accurate account on user .244 activities, intentions and character. These "diffs" are factual. It is not my own "paraphrasing." Finally, perhaps I should have added this [58] as well, which emphasizes .244 feelings. I thought .244 was younger than me! [59]...but then he calls me "young hot head." Such is the paradox... One more time, the seed of the problem in my view is content. We need reliable sources here. Best Wishes, avyakt7 13:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Ps: I noted that the way used here to find "sockpuppets" is by simple noting on which side of the world IPs and user names are coming (according to arbitration). I have not seen something about brahmakumaris.info and 195.82.106.244 yet... Are they coming from different sides of the world as well? or perhaps just England? Very curious about it. Om Shanti. avyakt7 13:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Below is what I have posted in the arbitration: Dear SimonP; please take a look at this link [60] and this [61] If this is not considered to be a strong proof of user 195.82.106.244 sockpuppet with brahmakumaris.info and bkwsuwatch.. It will really surprise me that the obvious cannot be seen. BTW, If you have the chance to read all of his writings in the above mentioned post, you shall see that the root of the problem is content alone. That kind of content is just wrong for an on-line encyclopedia. Thank you. Best avyakt7 01:09, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Ps: Here [62] you will see the comments below the video in Spanish. Take a look at "bkwsuwatch" endorsing brahmakumaris.info site... Let us see how is this being handled... Best Wishes, avyakt7 01:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Really gotta hand it to you 244 - when it comes to denial no-one can brass it quite like you! searchin man 23:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The following extensive edits by User:195.82.106.244 seem to have been made without seeking editor consensus [67]. The version that maleabroad reverted to [68], although not such as easy read, was at least discussed, and given reasonable time, only replacing text which was deemed not to be adequately cited or not meeting Wikipedia's policy requirements.
I am not going to revert it myself straight away since I understand the situation here is a bit delicate right now. I would like to know what the other editors and admins monitoring this page think of the edit in question.
Actually, credit where credit is due, much of the "bold edit" looks quite neutral this time which is quite encouraging. However I feel that it is also really important to have a harmonious working relationship amongst the active editors on this article. We have agreed a "controversial" tag to acknowledge that bold edits are going to need discussion and consensus before being implemented. User:195.82.106.244, could you please indicate if you are able to work with us on this?
Dear All, I reverted the page again. Before making changes we need to discuss here.
New user making changes already. Our agreed policy in this article is to discuss before making changes. Best,
avyakt7 00:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
OK Jossi,
request for opinion on references already and other. I have more but we will take this slowly.
It has an international print circulation of 100,000 plus, consultants to US President select committee, Ford Foundation sponsored and world's first desktop publishing network.
To start with, I would like to add to the references about the use of mediums within the BKWSU given by Howell, Walliss, Whaling and others for the channelling of the spirit they call God and their deceased founder Kirpalani. In the follow copy of a printed article, it is reported in the words of a Director of the BKWSU's herself how the deceased senior administrator Didi Manmohini came back from beyond the grave, was channelled through one of their mediums and gave messages about her experiences. Online archive of October 83 publication, here; [76].
A history of the Sindhi people of which Kirpalani and the BKs were members. To establish its credibility, K.R. Malkani was Lt. Governor of Pondicherry (i.e. Senator) and Vice-President of India's major center right political party the Bharatiya Janata Party from 1990 to 1995. Vice-President of the Deendayal Research Institute, New Delhi from 1983 to 1990. He was a member of Rajya Sabha (Senate) from 1994 to 2000. Born where Kirpalani started his movement at Hyderabad in the Sindh in November, 1921, he also served as editor of many newspapers, was General Secretary of the Editors Guild of India from 1977 to 1978.
I wish to use it to support the version of the early days of the Om Mandali and Om Niwas movement and the reaction from the families and Bhaibund community.
Please note that these references have been already but were removed because presumably the other editors have not read the book but frankly, racism towards the India point of view aside, Malkani is somewhat of an expert, the book is in English and as such any of his research is not primary reasearch on my behalf. The articles have been archived by third parties including academic facilities.
And I raise the suitability of the references added by Andries which I support and consider to be a perfectly adequate source.
195.82.106.244 04:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Heya Andries, please see that tag at the top of this page "controversial" and the disuccsion about the controversial tag. We've agreeded, as a page that all substantial changes will be disucssed first. I agree that 99% of the time, undiscussed is not a valid reason for reversion. However, this page, for the first time in.... months agreeded to something- that this is how we'd operate. If that doesn't feel right to you, would you be willing to disucss that under the controversial tag section? Sethie 05:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I think the membership figure is old. Also, I'd be uneasy using the word "aggressively". Although having said that, I think it is an interesting and worthy point that the Brahma Kumaris are quite unusual in that they do have a high conversion rate for an organisation of its size and history. Appledell 20:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
With all the BK contributors on board here, why;
I asked for this ages ago. All the academics are depending on the so called 'official figures' as 'actually figures' have not been independently reviewed. On that basis, it is probably best to leave any figure out or qualify it as a "claim".
Regarding the founding, the BKWSU was not founded in the 30s. The precursor OM Mandali was. In truth, BKWSU does not appear to have been founded anywhere until the 70s. It is just a sort of trading name for a variety of Trusts. Name and date the trusts please. Again, with so many BK contributors, why;
195.82.106.244 08:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I want to qualify my reservation on the use of the full Kranenborg quote in the first paragraph again.
In short, it may be good PR for the BKWSU but it is unsustainable until references are provided to sustain it.
The centrality of spiritual mediumship and the connection with the channelled beings the BKs call Shiva and Bapadada is on the other hand concurrent throughout many of the academics and their own literature. It is the most defining difference between their practise and others understanding of the terms. No BapDada, no BKWSU. The unchallenged reference to additional channelling carries additional weight in this argument.
Can I suggest a separate category within the article on "The BKWSU use of mediums" or mediumship?
195.82.106.244 08:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone has missed it, the BKWSU Arbitration case is open and here; [79] 195.82.106.244 08:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
There was a whole section on BK lifestyle deleted. It was concurrent with exact quotations from Whaling, e.g. 4 am ... 6.30am, strict acetiscism etc. Why was it removed?
As far as I can see it was accurate and non-contentious. 195.82.106.244 05:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
OK. Now the article has been re-written, what remains that is NPOV or unreferenced? Is it not time that tag is removed? 195.82.106.244 10:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Please discuss a bit here before making your changes. You know, some of us have a life besides Wikipedia.. patience is a good virtue...I have been very busy writing my little report on ".244 whereabouts and talkabaouts in a nutshell."- Limited edition. Thus, I apologize for not getting back sooner. I will revert the article again. Best, avyakt7 14:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Perhaps you could explain a bit about this: [80] Are you trying to "branch out" your field of influence? Isn't this page enough for you? That is a POV and libel unless you have proof. "Paraphrasing" has a different meaning when it comes from animosity. Best Wishes, 72.91.169.22 22:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC) avyakt7
The movement teaches the imminent "end of the world" that must be prepared fo...
The end of the world is a phrase used to most commonly refer to the death of all life on planet earth. When used, an individual could be explaining the result of a catastrophe.
This could be explained slightly clearer, as they don't teach that all life on this planet earth will end. they take about a "new world" on this earth, but not total death for everyone and everything.
jesselp 08:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244,
Ok. Let us discuss. I took my 6 hours off now I am ready... 1) Mediums: The word is channeling. The article (which will be reverted) had mentioned this at least once. What is your issue with this? Any other problems? 2) issue with Andreas: The article pointed out the words NRM and Religion when referring to Brahma Kumaris. As far as I can see the word in discussion was" Agressive." What would you like to post? BTW, I asked a question which wasn't even acknowledge. What is your interest in this article? You do not seem BK nor Ex-BK, a little search about you in wikipedia gives an idea of your interests, however; whether you want to answer this question or not, at least say so. You want me to answer your questions, likewise answer mine. Otherwise, it will look "poorly on me." alone, as Sethie put it.
Will revert article again. Best, avyakt7 13:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I've taken off that tag from the article - it's not been discussed on this page. Also, I'd contest the claim that it reads like an advertisement - I can't find a single positive adjective in any of the wording. Unless the problem lies with the "Achievements" section - in which case that should also be discussed here. I can understand how that could be viewed as an "advertisement". Appledell 15:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear All, All of the sudden we have this flux of new accounts wanting to contribute... Dear .244, do you have something to do with this? Who is Smeelgova? why a "cut and paste" from reliable sources become advertisement? without discussion, we cannot reach to any agreement... Smeelgova, please let us know about your contributions to this article first... Will revert article. Best, avyakt7 15:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Sister, Please remember to post your adress and real name... without it I will not be able to find you. Perhaps you would like me to ask for TalkAbout? On the other hand, you are very welcome to come and visit me. You, .244, and everyone who wants to say "hello" to me. You know my name, my place of residence and where to find me at 6 AM... everyday. Thanks to .244!
Happy Holidays, Sis! and keep it light... Best, avyakt7 10:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
May I make a suggestion to involved editors? Given that most of you are engaged in an arbitration case about this and related articles, you may want to consider not editing the article until the arbitration case is completed. For those editors that are not engaged in the arbitration case, you may want to consider being very cautious with your edits as to avoid igniting more flames in this dispute, and to allow the arbitration case to proceed without extra burdens. Note that if any new editors become too involved with this article, they may become de facto parties to the arbitration case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Watch out BKWatch ..be careful what you say...It wouldn't surprise if "many third parties" decided to show up all of the sudden...Your book needs a revision...Best, 70.110.74.202 16:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC) Avyakt7
Hi.
I reverted to the neutral edit as a starting point, and I state stating point.
The main reason for this is really due to the underhand manner in which the previous edit was achieved. I am afraid that I consider this to discredit the previous article and, given the academics assessment of BK evanglism being aggressive, have to view such editing techiques as being equally aggressive by normal standards.
Specifically I am talking about the blocking out of other contributors by intimidation and the use of secret IP user accounts by BK Luis to make admin requests and complaints which doesnot seem to have been acknowledged or commented upon by other contributors. Clearly part of a greater attempt to silence my involvement all together.
We have a problem here because discussion is not going on based on policy. But at least all the bogus vandalism claims and threats have stopped now Luis has been unmasked and the arbcom case has started. So that, at least, is an improvement.
I actually think that the current edit is neutral, better written and entirely concurrent with the academics and factual. If not complete. So rather than just mindlessly erasing it, what are the issues the BKWSU team has with it?
195.82.106.244 01:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Here FYI. [88] It surprises me that you do not recognize yourself... Courtesy of BKinfoWatch. Now, this will truly "undermine your name and appearance of any discussion on this page." How long are your planning to continue with your misrepresentations? Best, 70.110.74.202 16:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC) avyakt7
I replaced the Vallabhacharya references as I believe it is both a fairly innoculous fact whilst also putting into some context Kirpalani's and Om Mandali's later development. The justification for this is based on Vallabhacharya's identification between Krishna and Param Brahman, or Paramdham in BK speak, and all of the other gods of Hinduism as parts or aspects of his all-encompassing being. As a note, the Pushtimarg view of deities other than Krishna is not that they do not exist but that they are inferior to and dependent on Krishna's existence. After a someone is initiated into the sampradaya, Krishna is ideally the only god who is to be worshipped making Vallabhacharya essentially monotheist because of his complete focus on Krishna as deity (even to the the diminishment of Shiva). For more discussion on the BKWSU and this sect, please see Barz.
The BKs, of course, believe that Kirpalani and Krishna are the same soul as referenced elsewhere. 195.82.106.244 03:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
As far as I am aware the mantra "Om Shanti" does not mean "I am a peaceful soul". This is at worst nonsense and at best a very free interpretation of the mantra. May be the Brahma Kumaris believe that the mantra has this meaning but this should be stated as such. This meaning should not be written down as a fact without a reputable third-party source. Andries 14:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I've protected this page as per the request at Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection. A Train take the 15:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
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