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Greetings! I am a member of the BK information technology team approaching you, on their behalf, regarding the content of the article about the Brahma Kumaris on the Wikipedia page. It is a fairly comprehensive article with a clear structure and leaves the reader with an appreciation of the effort that may have gone into its research.
However, it is misleading in that whilst appearing to be authoritative, it is written in a way as to bias the uninformed reader against the organisation. In a number of places, use of disparaging language and a gross misrepresentation of facts gives the impression that the article hasn’t been written in good faith.
An example of a straight untruth appears in the fourth paragraph under “Origins”, where the entry states that the community moved to Mount Abu in 1950 “mainly due to the religious resistance to its activities in Pakistan”. In fact, the group had become well-respected in Karachi, where local leaders tried to dissuade them from leaving. They moved to India at the request of relatives.
Everyone has an equal right to contribute to this article and we respect that individuals have a right to express their opinions about the organisation. However, as the Wikipedia site is used by many as a reference for what they consider to be a neutral point of view, the existence of such a biased article is an issue that warrants attention.
With respect to the rules that Wikipedia sets out for proceeding forward amicably, I look forward to engaging in discussion with you so that proposed changes can be reviewed before any implementation occurs. Having read the discussion pages, I plan to start proposing incremental changes to the page over a period of time.
In the first instance, bearing in mind the above and evidence of obvious questioning of neutrality in the discussion pages, we would like to re-instate the neutrality warning box. I hope that this is acceptable. Bksimonb 05:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
In order to illustrate the Wikipedia article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba.
We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ;
To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle.
Following on from this ;
Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team.
We await your advises with concern.
Thank you.
Brahmakumaris.info 12:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
User 195.82.106.244 said: "I have absolutely no representative powers over any other contributor nor the website http://brahmakumaris.info [2]. To the best of my awareness there is nothing that you could say constitutes a team effort, or if there is I am not party to it. I take personal benefit from and contribute to the above mentioned website, on an ad hoc basis, but to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that would constitute a team or organization effort or again, if there is, I am not aware of any. If pressed, I could tell you very little about any contributor to http://brahmakumaris.info [3] other than what they have made public on that or the previous xBKChat.com forum and prefer it that way. Personally, I would say it is all in the public domain now."
User 195.82.106.244 has expelled me from the brahmakumaris.info site without previous warning (I cannot log in). This individual uses the name "ex-I" in the brahmakumaris.info site. Apparently he runs this site since he is capable of editing any post at will. I have been contributing to this site for about a week. This user has been one of the main contributors of this page and I had the opportunity to debate with him before back in March/April 2006 with no avail. It is evident that this individual has high bias against Brahma Kumaris. It is truly unfortunate that an article about Brahma Kumaris has been started by someone with strong negative feelings against the institution. Just a FYI. Riveros11 aka avyakt7
Some of the information which has remained here is inaccurate. Hopefully, I can make a more accurate edit, which is what wikipedia is all about.
This is not true. If it is the case that non-BK money is considered 'impure', why would any be accepted? Yet here the article states non-BK donations are generally not accepted. This is a contradiction within the sentence. Also, even if this were to be true, how is it to be enacted? Donation boxes in centres are simply boxes with a slit in them like a post/mail box. How would the BKs know what were 'impure' and 'pure' donations? Rather, in demonstratable fact, anyone can walk into a BK centre and make a donation.
To the user 'TalkAbout': Why did you revert the edit? What changes do you disagree with? 26th August 2006. - 89.240.131.11 19:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Welcome
89.241.54.33, please have a look at the message left on your user page,
[15] and learn a little bit more about the Wiki and how it works. Although I am not responsible for all the content, nor all the mistakes, I have been one of the main contributor to this topic. I came into Gyan over 20 years ago and am a Wiki Sith. Please excuse me for formating your discussion thread so that it was easy for myself and others to follow. If you have a dynamic IP address, it is better that you register a User name.
From a general point of view, I do not think that you can call yourself a BK if you do not follow the Maryadas. At the very best, you might be a Brahmin soul but a very lowly one, perhaps worth of a few births in the Silver Age, perhaps not even that. How do we know if you are a Deity soul with full realisation of the Knowledge at all or just a Bhagat soul? You are probably under the influence of Brahma and Dadi Bhagats and also have a similar problem to BK Simon in that you came into Gyan after the period of the great re-write and transition to PR based service. You also see only one face of the BKWSU, the British Zone. What passes for BK Raja Yoga in the UK and what passes for BK Raja Yoga in the villages of India is entirely different. Which is the accurate path for us to document here? I would argue India, through its majority, takes precedence.
Brahmin life aside, the Wiki has its own requirements of easily verifiable facts. If you wish to revise the topic, you must be able to supply verifiable sources to counter the statements made. In the case of any relating the BKWSU, this would mean primarily original Murli points. Unfortunately, on one hand the BKWSU is engaged in both a re-writing of its history and the indeed the Murlis, so it is increasingly difficult to validate its claims; on the other, it keeps "God's Word" and video broadcasts of God speaking locked behind password protected webpages and PGP encryption, so how is a third party supposed to validate its claims. One must also be clear in one's mind what are facts and what is PR whitewash.Largely, on the basis of the secrecy and documented re-writing, we have to accept that the cult's own webpages are PR. If there is any doubt, please take Shrimat from a Senior Sister or write to Madhuban. Where there have been changes to Shrimat, then a signed and dated letter from a Senior Sister documenting the changes and conditions for their change would be acceptable. You will find that what is documented here was and is widely accurate.
OK. Let's address your issues briefly.
Global Retreat Centre is unique in that it is a BK centre but also used for private business and for general seminars. I can certainly say that it was Shrimat for BKs not to court or accept donations from Shudra souls. It still is largely in India where bribery and corruption are rife but I cannot state if this is still true for the West now. The Senior sisters will qualify this for you. Money from Shudra, i.e. non-Brahmin souls was not used for service as it was impure like they are. If Shrimat has changed, I'll like to see it in writing. I used to be a Raja Yoga teacher. One of the problems here is the BKWSU is changing Raja Yoga to the extent that it is hardly Raja Yoga any more.
These accounts state the BKWSU have £ 15 Million in the bank but no note ever of external funding depsite the charity being registered "to alleviate poverty". Perhaps we should amend this point to state that the British BKWSU has never donated money or alleviate any poverty except for its own ... unless figure can be shown to contradict this.
But I can state without any fear of contradiction that for a large part of the organisation, at least the first 50 or 60 years, Baba's Shrimat was that BKs did not do social work or ordinary charity work and certainly did not give money to impure Shudras, arguably for the fear of encouraging their vices and incurring more karma. All charitable funds were given to Baba and all service was promting the BKWSU. I can without any fear of contradiction state that this was taught by both Senior BKs such as Jayanti Kirpalani and local sisters-in-charge. If given access to original Murlis, I am confident that I can pull quotes out for you. Please check with your sister-in-charge.
You are, of course, correct to state Lekhraj was not God. The BKWSU teach that he alone becomes equal to God.
n.b. the spelling of Dada Lehkraj's name is not consistent through the article either and needs corrected.
Personally, I would say that there is inconsistency in the name used when talking about Lekhraj Kirpalani. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Brahma Bhagats in the BKWSU how are ignoring Shrimat and Murlis creating their own religion for next the Kalpa. Brahma Baba is spiritual name for Lekhraj Kirpalani. He is being re-invented as a kind of guru figure that he would have abhorred. Indeed, Shiva Baba is the Murlis was very clear with his Shirmat that the BKs should not keep pictures of Lekhraj Kirpalani and yet the BKWSU promotes it. "The Father says: You must not remember the pictures of any subtle, corporeal or Incorporeal beings ... Baba says: Stop looking at pictures. That is the path of devotion" . Sakar Murli 24/2/2004. Give me time, or go ask Dadi Janki, and I will provide better references. A good source of Murlis in the public domain is here, [[ [17]]. Consequently, from a Wiki point of view, either works.
195.82.106.244 14:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't feel the need to qualify myself as a BK, in real life or on wikipedia. You may believe about me what you will, but either way that does not disqualify me from making edits. My edits should be judged for what they, and not who they were done by, as with anyone else. Out of interest, have you been in gyan for 20 years or is it that you came into gyan 20 years ago and left some years after? How the Knowledge is taught in India and abroad is obviously going to be different due to a different audience with different cultures, traditional beliefs etc. I believe you have some bias against the BKs. The wording of your posts suggests so, as does your linking to an organisation made up of ex-BKs which would be inherently biased against the BKs. Please attempt keep your bias in check. I will attempt the same with mine.
b. 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' That is not even a proper sentence. It definitely does not belong under a section entitled 'Global Expansion'. What it lacks in form it also lacks in content. It is misleading in that it gives the impression that the BKs are hoarding money, and if it is to be said that the BKs have only ever once donated outside of its operations, then it will also need to be said exactly where this money is going instead.
I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Would it be possible to keep the entire discussion of 'Some inaccuracies within the article' on one page, and not in two archives? It would be a lot easier to see the whole discussion that way and will also provide the necessary context for what we are discussing now.
Seeing as though we agree about the article needing citable reliable and authoritative sources, should a warning not be put up in the meantime showing readers that this article does not cite its sources?
On the point of donations, 2b, your summary of the BK accounts in the UK is misleading. It does not 'hold in excess of £15m in the bank taken from donations'[paraphrase], rather it has £15,942,517 in 'tangible fixed assets'. This is an important distinction, one which the user searchin man has also highlighted. Once depreciation is taken into account, tangible fixed assets total £12,194,930 (all figures are those at 31st December 2004). This can be found on page 12 of the annual financial report which is in that link you provided [11]. Furthermore, 'cash in hand at bank' totalled £3,626,426 at the end of 2004. Whilst it is true that the 'Investment policy' on page 3 states the 'current policy is to invest in bank deposits', page 14 indicates exactly why the BKs are putting money into their bank account; 'the excess cash revenue is earmarked for further expansion of the BKWSU activites by aquiring land and property in areas where it has less presence'.
Unfortunately it would require someone with more expertise on non-UK equivalents of the Charity Commission to find the relevant documents, with the language barrier standing as it is. Many BKs will be able to testify that the organisation raised money to donate to the Asian Earthquake and the South East Asian Tsunami appeals, and it remains to be seen whether these efforts were noted in official documents. Hopefully, with time, they will appear. However, this does not mean that the fragment 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' does not also need to cite a source. Whilst you cannot prove a negative, a source here would serve both purposes. Until then it should either be re-written, deleted or a [citation needed] will need to be put there.
Also, I believe common sense dictates that the use of the phrase 'spiritual entrepreneur' is not meant to denote a link between business and spirituality.
I apologise for mistaking the colour of Krishna's skin. Even if it is symbolic it must be noted that the BK use of the word Krishna differs greatly from the traditional use of the term. It is misleading, inaccurate and will need to be edited. I take it you are agreement with points 1, 3 and 4? If not, please state why following my previous post. PEACE 84.13.205.142 20:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
phasis added]. If that is the case you will need to provide citations that this was the case, and the sentence that states that 'Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure "' will need to be removed as it does not cite an authoritative source. 'Murlis' on an ex-BK website do not constitute reliable sources when the topic at hand is the BK organisation itself. If it cannot be proved either way, it should be omitted from the article. Anything else would be siding with the version of the article before my edit simply because it was the ----84.13.205.142 20:25, 29 August 2006
"I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)"
Real disappointed with you there Talkabout. When I first looked in on this discussion, you had raised Avyakt7’s complaint on the user Brahmakumaris.info talk page and I took it as some indication of impartiality. Now I see all trace of that has been removed and Avyakt7 still locked out.
Can’t see any further communication between yourself and user Brahamkumaris.info on the matter either, so whatever your offline communication was, seems the hostile mockery in your above response to Avyakt7 means you’re now pretty satisfied his banishment was justified. Let me tell you Bud, I ain’t satisfied, and let me tell you just why his complaint is just dead relevant to the NPOV request on this Wiki discussion.
In the main BrahmaKumaris.info discussion thread Avyakt7 was involved in, Ex-l typically starts muck raking through the web and mocking the guy with a link to a poker site he has contributed to. No censure there it seems, yet Avyakt7 tells us he got censured because he addressed Ex-l as 195.82.106.244 in a subsequent post.
Now to me that’s just pointing out that he reckons he knows Ex-l from another site under another annonymous id. No identity threat there, not even insult. But what happens, the guy not only gets his post censored, he gets barred completely. Talkabout bud, your alarm bells otta be ringing loud and clear, there’s an urgent need for an NPOV and very strong warning on this site now. If you’re still not getting it, let me tell you just why.
Avykat7 was bang on with 195.82.106.244 = Ex-l.
The censure and barring that followed means that 195.82.106.244 was lying to BKSimonb about his connection with Brahamkumaris.info.
There is a very pretty cosy connection between Ex-l and his forum administrator, who you Talkabout bud, seem to think is the user Brahmakumaris.info on this wiki discussion.
Anyone can see from Ex-l’s posts that he spends most of his waking life looking for ways to discredit the bk/anyone associated with the bk.
See you’re real concerned about identity’s being legitimate in this discussion group. So you just go right ahead and check out avyakt7=searchin man with the wiki’s sockpuppet detection guys and if you’ve really no connection with the BrahmaKumaris.info site, then do us all favour and get 195.82.106.244=Brahmakumaris.info checked same time.
Sincerely -- searchin man 17:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
In order to illustrate the Wikipedia article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba.
We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ;
To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle.
Following on from this ;
Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team.
We await your advises with concern.
Thank you.
Brahmakumaris.info 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
User Riveros11 or Avyakt7 enters into this discussion have been allegedly kicked off a discussion forum. He had allegedly been attempting to reveal personal information about another person he had dug off the internet in a menacing manner, presumably intended to win an argument.
As a cult member of this group we are documenting, immediately he commences exactly the strategy attacking me and attempting to connect me with this other individual. Obviously, a strategy of intimidation used by Cults like the Scientologist to frighten individuals off from revealing their truths to the public eye, he now engages a 'buddy' to help him.
The Wikipedia protects individuals and encourages discussion. Its official policy is "no personal attacks" and within personal attacks is stated, "Threats or actions which expose other Wikipedia editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. Violations of this sort may result in a block for an extended period of time which may be applied immediately by any sysop upon discovery". So, in line with policy, I am formaly requesting you to decist from personal attacks and to remove any smears, allegations or confusions you are attacking me with.
As an example of which, I would like to illustrate. Riveros11 or Avyakt7 has an issue with Destruction and Transformation. If we take his user names, those subjects and his known affiliation with this cult and put them into Google, within a few steps it reveals
Within a few steps, one is about 70% on the way to identity theft.
Now, given the current state of tension, fear and security paranoia within the USA; BKWSU teacher Avyakt7 writes on more than on forum, "We, will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. Our technology “know how” have created the bombs. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used". Now, it is also policy that, "membership of an organization does not prohibit an indivdual from contributing". But from this, we could easily say Avyakt7 to be;
You can see how a malicious individual could use such easily gleaned personal information in a personal attack. Now, obviously, I have deliberately constructed an extreme scenario here - even if the citations are there to support it - but what does the general public really know about what is going on inside the mind of Raja Yoga / BKWSU? What even do the neophyte followers know?
I suggest that if we meet in the Wikipedia, we observe the Wiki's policies. When in Rome ... and all that. 195.82.106.244 13:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
info@brahmakumaris.info wrote:
To: avyakt7@yahoo.com Subject: Suspension From: info@brahmakumaris.info Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:21:03 +0100
Hello avyakt7,
The following is an email sent to you by bbsysop via your account on BrahmaKumaris.Info.
Message sent to you follows 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)20:57
Your membership has been suspended and this matter referred to the moderators in order that they come to a decision. Although general guidelines are in place, it is new and voluntary forum and so this might take a few days. No policy regarding the suspensions or banning of individuals was ever invisaged as being necessary amongst Brahmin souls.
If you are willing to follow the guidelines, and can avoid the tendency to make personal attacks, you are welcome to continue to post. If you inspect the forum, you will realize that 3 or 4 separate topics on Destruction, dating back to May, have been combined together as part of regular pruning.
Thank you.
This is the email I received from "ex-i" AKA bbsysop AKA admin AKA .244 "Ex-i" deleted my greeting in my last post. The greeting was "Dear 195.82.106.244" and then Greetings! After I wrote an email where I typed "195.82.106.244" about 10 times to address him.... He decided to drop my account without previous warning. After that, He "pruned" what I shared deleting posts not suitable for him.
I recall the one where I demonstrated that Poincare's theory is not in contradiction with the second law, as he has stated. I showed him a document which I researched for the last 3 years. He has never showed me a logical argument to counteract it. Moreover, the fact that this article was erased by wikipedia editors it does not diminish its validity, considering that this article is about cyclical time which is a subject which is not even dealt with by western scientists.. and of course, a college Kid with a degree is not the most qualified person to judge in 20 minutes something which has taken some years to understand. (the Ocean of Knowledge is very deep.)
I apologize for such a lenghty document to explain the incidents. I have explained to "ex-i" AKA "195.82.106.244" that "destruction" and "transformation" are not contradictory. Shiva's knowledge is not "linear" it is paradoxical. There will be destruction. God Shiva has never released a date for it. However, destruction as per "the end" never happens, it is a "transformation" because everything is eternal but changes through "time." (time is also a paradox) This is spiritual knowledge. Depending on the stress that I want to give to my articles I will use "destruction" or "transformation." Please see, that either term is correct to be used. I have explained this to "ex-i" so many times and he keeps on bringing this issue up.
I have no problem in releasing my identity. As a matter of fact, I respond my emails with my real name in it... unlike: 195.82.106.244 and others who are hiding under an IP or a fake name. If you hide, you are afraid. Are you afraid of what? Brahmakumaris.info are you afraid of my posts? I am a Brahmin and I have never called names to anyone or treated anyone disrespectfully. I will be more than happy to discuss "my science" (as 195.82.106.244 calls it) with any of you in that forum. EX-BKs writing an article by themselves about Brahma Kumaris are not qualified to do so because they have a bias vision. This is rational, logical to see. 195.82.106.244 negativity and bad feelings towards BK is evident; however, he will not understand that. I guess it is his role....
BTW, I don't know who "searchin man" is but I truly appreciate his support. NPOV is needed in this article. I propose to have one person from every position (ie. BK, Ex-BK, PBK, etc.) to be the representative for their division. Once the whole article is written as every party would like to see it here, then it could be discussed and decided among the representatives. Without this kind of "democracy" there will not be a consensus.
Best Wishes.
Avyakt7 AKA Riveros11 -- 72.91.28.223 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It must be noted that the BKWSU goes to great length to hide or refuse access to their inner teaching and is engaged in a process of re-writing them. However, far too much remains in the public domain to make this successful. The following references are not exhaustive or full detailed but significant enough to remove any doubt in a third party. A Sakar Murli is considered by the BKWSU to be the authentic word of God where no other scripture is. It is said by the BKWSU to be God himself speaking through the medium of Lekhraj Kirpalani. An Avyakt Murli is said to be the combined form of a dead Lekhraj Kirpalani and God Shiva speaking through the channel or medium of BK Gulzar. The scriptures are the highest authories within BKWSU teachings, excuding the Murli team that re-writes them to suit the time and the Global PR team that publically denies them.
The following links offer a direct and easily verifiable creference of BKWSU teachings of the destruction of a Nuclear War between Russia and America. Brahma Baba, the medium of Shiva Baba and founder of the BKWSU, had so much of faith in this predication that he signed such picture a declaration was made by the institution and images sent out to the Government of India and other dignitaries notifying them of the coming Destruction of the World and the establishment of Heaven. One can see clearly at the top two cats with human heads wearing military hats. One Russian with the Hammer and Sickle Red Flag, the other American with the Stars and Stripes. These images remain at the organisations Indian headquarters.
See; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//5/51/Catsandtree.jpg, http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//f/f2/Cycle_and_Trimurti_A4.jpg
"Look! The Science-Proud European Yadavas will destroy one and other in this internaional Atomic War (Mahabharata) like 5,000 years ago"
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//2/2d/Tree.jpg and "Adi Dev" by Jagdish Chander referenced in article.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6471058539715764200&q=Brahma+Kumaris Google Video clip of BKWSU promotion video including Destruction/Nuclear war.
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//1/13/Lakshmi_and_Narayan_A4.jpg
and from the BKWSU own website
" Dada also saw how the death came slower through wars and civil wars, culminating in an awesome wave of natural catastrophes: floods and tidal waves, earthquakes of every kind wreaking havoc on the scarred face of the earth. Dada began to tremble uncontrollably upon witnessing the scenes of this great world wide destruction. Humans and animals were running wildly about, trying to save their lives, to escape from the jaws of death. But there was no escape. The wail of horror, the rivers of blood and pus, the panic and the desperation, and then, the final death."
"All become worthy of claiming a right to liberation-in-life, but there is so much difference between the 8 jewels, the 108 victorious jewels, the 16,000 and then the 900,000. There is a rosary of 16,000 and also of 108. In the 108, there are also the eight special ones. All become beads of the rosary. Both types would be called beads. Even the beads of the rosary of 16,000 will say in happiness and intoxication: My Baba and my kingdom. The difference is between claiming a right to the royal throne or a royal status, a right to the royal family and a right to being in connection with the royal family."
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2001/01/26_Revised http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised.
It would be interesting to request a copy of BK Dadi Janki's 2006 class stating that the 900,000 would be ready this year.
" Baba has said: At the time of destruction, those whose intellect has no love will be destroyed. All of them will be destroyed and only you will remain to claim victory. You are establishing a kingdom. "
" The Supreme Soul Himself says: I enter this one's body (Lakhraj Kirpalani) in which his own soul is also present. I enter him ... It is only to the children who have become Brahmins that the Father speaks. He would not tell anyone else. He only loves His children"
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/06_Revised
" Om Shanti. The Spiritual Father (Shiva) sits here and explains to you spiritual children (BKs) ... He says: O children, I have incarnated in this one (Lekhraj Kirpalani) and, through him, I tell you the secrets ... Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) explains this. The path of devotion has been nothing but a waste of time. ... Baba now explains: Those worldly gurus do not grant you salvation. Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) leads you to salvation ... "
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/01/22_Revised
“The university once taught that the current age, or cycle, would end in nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States. This teaching was dropped after the fall of the Soviet Union, said Brother Karuna Shebby, the organization’s chief spokesman, said by telephone from the group’s Mount Abu headquarters in the Indian state of Rajasthan.”
in contradiction to teachings of destruction and nuclear war referenced above. http://brahmakumaris.info/blog/?p=100
See treaching poster referenced above. " Population of at the end of Iron Age 500 crore " Bottom of http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg.
"Destgruction of viscious Iron age World in 10 years" ; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg [ published in 1960s ]
" you Brahmins are the highest, the top-knot. Only these Confluence Aged Brahmins become deities. First of all, the Brahmins are even higher than the deities. The top-knot is the highest. You brahmins worship the deities, and you consider yourselves to be worshippers and them to be worthy of worship. You can explain this to those worshipper-priest brahmins in the temples. You are the true Confluence Aged Brahmins. You are the mouth-born creation of Brahma. You are now becoming deities."
"This donation and charity performed in a second through a powerful stage will make you worthy of being worshipped and remembered for half the Cycle."
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/02/07_Revised
"Then, in terms of being worthy of worship, your worship is so great. No righteous soul or great soul is worshipped in the right way like you deity souls are. "
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2004/02/04_Revised
"When Destruction takes place, they will understand that God has come. Then, those to whom you gave the message will remember: Who were those angels dressed in white? You also see angels in the subtle region, do you not?" - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/05_Revised
"You cannot experience sorrow by this great Destruction because you become angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised
" Then, at the final moments, you angels are guaranteed to become deities. If you want to become like the Father, then the Father is incorporeal and an angel. To become like Father Brahma means to stay in the angelic stage." - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised
"The Father is now once again creating the land of angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/06/07_Revised
OK. I will take a break there. I am not avoiding answering any of the other requests for references or citation. I just think the denial and supression of BKWSU teacher and supporters is becoming increasing silly and that the burden of proof is clear. Actually by attempting to deny and suppress the factual truths about your organization and beliefs you are broadcasting them far wider. Perhaps this is how you want to do service ... I am happy to help.
What you BKWSU teachers and supporters should realise, if that the secrecy and cover up game is over. The internet is going to reveal you for what you are. Indeed, God Shiva has predicted this himself ( ... do you want a citation? We can provide it).
This article, in accordance with wikipedia policies, much like the BK predict of the world, could be 90% wiped away. There are many, many facts claimed and almost no refferences. If no one adds refferences, it will eventually be paired down. Sethie 01:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sethie.
I removed the citation notice from the BKWSU topic as it not required. If you want to raise specific questions, please first read throught the discussion archive and quoted references. Then, where there is serious lack of citations that has not been covered, raise here in detail first where they will be answered.
It is not at all clear whether your objections are philosophical, i.e. that this is not orthodox Hinduism, or specific to the BKs. If they are specific to the BKs, it would help to know what your knowledge of them is based on.
Frankly, given that your comment comes after a page of "easily checkable" references in line with Wiki policy, I must admit that your action has made a negative impression. Let's discuss this first. If your POV is on a passing acquaintance or mutual self interest, be cautious.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Greetings! I am a member of the BK information technology team approaching you, on their behalf, regarding the content of the article about the Brahma Kumaris on the Wikipedia page. It is a fairly comprehensive article with a clear structure and leaves the reader with an appreciation of the effort that may have gone into its research.
However, it is misleading in that whilst appearing to be authoritative, it is written in a way as to bias the uninformed reader against the organisation. In a number of places, use of disparaging language and a gross misrepresentation of facts gives the impression that the article hasn’t been written in good faith.
An example of a straight untruth appears in the fourth paragraph under “Origins”, where the entry states that the community moved to Mount Abu in 1950 “mainly due to the religious resistance to its activities in Pakistan”. In fact, the group had become well-respected in Karachi, where local leaders tried to dissuade them from leaving. They moved to India at the request of relatives.
Everyone has an equal right to contribute to this article and we respect that individuals have a right to express their opinions about the organisation. However, as the Wikipedia site is used by many as a reference for what they consider to be a neutral point of view, the existence of such a biased article is an issue that warrants attention.
With respect to the rules that Wikipedia sets out for proceeding forward amicably, I look forward to engaging in discussion with you so that proposed changes can be reviewed before any implementation occurs. Having read the discussion pages, I plan to start proposing incremental changes to the page over a period of time.
In the first instance, bearing in mind the above and evidence of obvious questioning of neutrality in the discussion pages, we would like to re-instate the neutrality warning box. I hope that this is acceptable. Bksimonb 05:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
In order to illustrate the Wikipedia article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba.
We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ;
To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle.
Following on from this ;
Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team.
We await your advises with concern.
Thank you.
Brahmakumaris.info 12:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
User 195.82.106.244 said: "I have absolutely no representative powers over any other contributor nor the website http://brahmakumaris.info [2]. To the best of my awareness there is nothing that you could say constitutes a team effort, or if there is I am not party to it. I take personal benefit from and contribute to the above mentioned website, on an ad hoc basis, but to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that would constitute a team or organization effort or again, if there is, I am not aware of any. If pressed, I could tell you very little about any contributor to http://brahmakumaris.info [3] other than what they have made public on that or the previous xBKChat.com forum and prefer it that way. Personally, I would say it is all in the public domain now."
User 195.82.106.244 has expelled me from the brahmakumaris.info site without previous warning (I cannot log in). This individual uses the name "ex-I" in the brahmakumaris.info site. Apparently he runs this site since he is capable of editing any post at will. I have been contributing to this site for about a week. This user has been one of the main contributors of this page and I had the opportunity to debate with him before back in March/April 2006 with no avail. It is evident that this individual has high bias against Brahma Kumaris. It is truly unfortunate that an article about Brahma Kumaris has been started by someone with strong negative feelings against the institution. Just a FYI. Riveros11 aka avyakt7
Some of the information which has remained here is inaccurate. Hopefully, I can make a more accurate edit, which is what wikipedia is all about.
This is not true. If it is the case that non-BK money is considered 'impure', why would any be accepted? Yet here the article states non-BK donations are generally not accepted. This is a contradiction within the sentence. Also, even if this were to be true, how is it to be enacted? Donation boxes in centres are simply boxes with a slit in them like a post/mail box. How would the BKs know what were 'impure' and 'pure' donations? Rather, in demonstratable fact, anyone can walk into a BK centre and make a donation.
To the user 'TalkAbout': Why did you revert the edit? What changes do you disagree with? 26th August 2006. - 89.240.131.11 19:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Welcome
89.241.54.33, please have a look at the message left on your user page,
[15] and learn a little bit more about the Wiki and how it works. Although I am not responsible for all the content, nor all the mistakes, I have been one of the main contributor to this topic. I came into Gyan over 20 years ago and am a Wiki Sith. Please excuse me for formating your discussion thread so that it was easy for myself and others to follow. If you have a dynamic IP address, it is better that you register a User name.
From a general point of view, I do not think that you can call yourself a BK if you do not follow the Maryadas. At the very best, you might be a Brahmin soul but a very lowly one, perhaps worth of a few births in the Silver Age, perhaps not even that. How do we know if you are a Deity soul with full realisation of the Knowledge at all or just a Bhagat soul? You are probably under the influence of Brahma and Dadi Bhagats and also have a similar problem to BK Simon in that you came into Gyan after the period of the great re-write and transition to PR based service. You also see only one face of the BKWSU, the British Zone. What passes for BK Raja Yoga in the UK and what passes for BK Raja Yoga in the villages of India is entirely different. Which is the accurate path for us to document here? I would argue India, through its majority, takes precedence.
Brahmin life aside, the Wiki has its own requirements of easily verifiable facts. If you wish to revise the topic, you must be able to supply verifiable sources to counter the statements made. In the case of any relating the BKWSU, this would mean primarily original Murli points. Unfortunately, on one hand the BKWSU is engaged in both a re-writing of its history and the indeed the Murlis, so it is increasingly difficult to validate its claims; on the other, it keeps "God's Word" and video broadcasts of God speaking locked behind password protected webpages and PGP encryption, so how is a third party supposed to validate its claims. One must also be clear in one's mind what are facts and what is PR whitewash.Largely, on the basis of the secrecy and documented re-writing, we have to accept that the cult's own webpages are PR. If there is any doubt, please take Shrimat from a Senior Sister or write to Madhuban. Where there have been changes to Shrimat, then a signed and dated letter from a Senior Sister documenting the changes and conditions for their change would be acceptable. You will find that what is documented here was and is widely accurate.
OK. Let's address your issues briefly.
Global Retreat Centre is unique in that it is a BK centre but also used for private business and for general seminars. I can certainly say that it was Shrimat for BKs not to court or accept donations from Shudra souls. It still is largely in India where bribery and corruption are rife but I cannot state if this is still true for the West now. The Senior sisters will qualify this for you. Money from Shudra, i.e. non-Brahmin souls was not used for service as it was impure like they are. If Shrimat has changed, I'll like to see it in writing. I used to be a Raja Yoga teacher. One of the problems here is the BKWSU is changing Raja Yoga to the extent that it is hardly Raja Yoga any more.
These accounts state the BKWSU have £ 15 Million in the bank but no note ever of external funding depsite the charity being registered "to alleviate poverty". Perhaps we should amend this point to state that the British BKWSU has never donated money or alleviate any poverty except for its own ... unless figure can be shown to contradict this.
But I can state without any fear of contradiction that for a large part of the organisation, at least the first 50 or 60 years, Baba's Shrimat was that BKs did not do social work or ordinary charity work and certainly did not give money to impure Shudras, arguably for the fear of encouraging their vices and incurring more karma. All charitable funds were given to Baba and all service was promting the BKWSU. I can without any fear of contradiction state that this was taught by both Senior BKs such as Jayanti Kirpalani and local sisters-in-charge. If given access to original Murlis, I am confident that I can pull quotes out for you. Please check with your sister-in-charge.
You are, of course, correct to state Lekhraj was not God. The BKWSU teach that he alone becomes equal to God.
n.b. the spelling of Dada Lehkraj's name is not consistent through the article either and needs corrected.
Personally, I would say that there is inconsistency in the name used when talking about Lekhraj Kirpalani. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Brahma Bhagats in the BKWSU how are ignoring Shrimat and Murlis creating their own religion for next the Kalpa. Brahma Baba is spiritual name for Lekhraj Kirpalani. He is being re-invented as a kind of guru figure that he would have abhorred. Indeed, Shiva Baba is the Murlis was very clear with his Shirmat that the BKs should not keep pictures of Lekhraj Kirpalani and yet the BKWSU promotes it. "The Father says: You must not remember the pictures of any subtle, corporeal or Incorporeal beings ... Baba says: Stop looking at pictures. That is the path of devotion" . Sakar Murli 24/2/2004. Give me time, or go ask Dadi Janki, and I will provide better references. A good source of Murlis in the public domain is here, [[ [17]]. Consequently, from a Wiki point of view, either works.
195.82.106.244 14:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't feel the need to qualify myself as a BK, in real life or on wikipedia. You may believe about me what you will, but either way that does not disqualify me from making edits. My edits should be judged for what they, and not who they were done by, as with anyone else. Out of interest, have you been in gyan for 20 years or is it that you came into gyan 20 years ago and left some years after? How the Knowledge is taught in India and abroad is obviously going to be different due to a different audience with different cultures, traditional beliefs etc. I believe you have some bias against the BKs. The wording of your posts suggests so, as does your linking to an organisation made up of ex-BKs which would be inherently biased against the BKs. Please attempt keep your bias in check. I will attempt the same with mine.
b. 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' That is not even a proper sentence. It definitely does not belong under a section entitled 'Global Expansion'. What it lacks in form it also lacks in content. It is misleading in that it gives the impression that the BKs are hoarding money, and if it is to be said that the BKs have only ever once donated outside of its operations, then it will also need to be said exactly where this money is going instead.
I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Would it be possible to keep the entire discussion of 'Some inaccuracies within the article' on one page, and not in two archives? It would be a lot easier to see the whole discussion that way and will also provide the necessary context for what we are discussing now.
Seeing as though we agree about the article needing citable reliable and authoritative sources, should a warning not be put up in the meantime showing readers that this article does not cite its sources?
On the point of donations, 2b, your summary of the BK accounts in the UK is misleading. It does not 'hold in excess of £15m in the bank taken from donations'[paraphrase], rather it has £15,942,517 in 'tangible fixed assets'. This is an important distinction, one which the user searchin man has also highlighted. Once depreciation is taken into account, tangible fixed assets total £12,194,930 (all figures are those at 31st December 2004). This can be found on page 12 of the annual financial report which is in that link you provided [11]. Furthermore, 'cash in hand at bank' totalled £3,626,426 at the end of 2004. Whilst it is true that the 'Investment policy' on page 3 states the 'current policy is to invest in bank deposits', page 14 indicates exactly why the BKs are putting money into their bank account; 'the excess cash revenue is earmarked for further expansion of the BKWSU activites by aquiring land and property in areas where it has less presence'.
Unfortunately it would require someone with more expertise on non-UK equivalents of the Charity Commission to find the relevant documents, with the language barrier standing as it is. Many BKs will be able to testify that the organisation raised money to donate to the Asian Earthquake and the South East Asian Tsunami appeals, and it remains to be seen whether these efforts were noted in official documents. Hopefully, with time, they will appear. However, this does not mean that the fragment 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' does not also need to cite a source. Whilst you cannot prove a negative, a source here would serve both purposes. Until then it should either be re-written, deleted or a [citation needed] will need to be put there.
Also, I believe common sense dictates that the use of the phrase 'spiritual entrepreneur' is not meant to denote a link between business and spirituality.
I apologise for mistaking the colour of Krishna's skin. Even if it is symbolic it must be noted that the BK use of the word Krishna differs greatly from the traditional use of the term. It is misleading, inaccurate and will need to be edited. I take it you are agreement with points 1, 3 and 4? If not, please state why following my previous post. PEACE 84.13.205.142 20:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
phasis added]. If that is the case you will need to provide citations that this was the case, and the sentence that states that 'Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure "' will need to be removed as it does not cite an authoritative source. 'Murlis' on an ex-BK website do not constitute reliable sources when the topic at hand is the BK organisation itself. If it cannot be proved either way, it should be omitted from the article. Anything else would be siding with the version of the article before my edit simply because it was the ----84.13.205.142 20:25, 29 August 2006
"I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)"
Real disappointed with you there Talkabout. When I first looked in on this discussion, you had raised Avyakt7’s complaint on the user Brahmakumaris.info talk page and I took it as some indication of impartiality. Now I see all trace of that has been removed and Avyakt7 still locked out.
Can’t see any further communication between yourself and user Brahamkumaris.info on the matter either, so whatever your offline communication was, seems the hostile mockery in your above response to Avyakt7 means you’re now pretty satisfied his banishment was justified. Let me tell you Bud, I ain’t satisfied, and let me tell you just why his complaint is just dead relevant to the NPOV request on this Wiki discussion.
In the main BrahmaKumaris.info discussion thread Avyakt7 was involved in, Ex-l typically starts muck raking through the web and mocking the guy with a link to a poker site he has contributed to. No censure there it seems, yet Avyakt7 tells us he got censured because he addressed Ex-l as 195.82.106.244 in a subsequent post.
Now to me that’s just pointing out that he reckons he knows Ex-l from another site under another annonymous id. No identity threat there, not even insult. But what happens, the guy not only gets his post censored, he gets barred completely. Talkabout bud, your alarm bells otta be ringing loud and clear, there’s an urgent need for an NPOV and very strong warning on this site now. If you’re still not getting it, let me tell you just why.
Avykat7 was bang on with 195.82.106.244 = Ex-l.
The censure and barring that followed means that 195.82.106.244 was lying to BKSimonb about his connection with Brahamkumaris.info.
There is a very pretty cosy connection between Ex-l and his forum administrator, who you Talkabout bud, seem to think is the user Brahmakumaris.info on this wiki discussion.
Anyone can see from Ex-l’s posts that he spends most of his waking life looking for ways to discredit the bk/anyone associated with the bk.
See you’re real concerned about identity’s being legitimate in this discussion group. So you just go right ahead and check out avyakt7=searchin man with the wiki’s sockpuppet detection guys and if you’ve really no connection with the BrahmaKumaris.info site, then do us all favour and get 195.82.106.244=Brahmakumaris.info checked same time.
Sincerely -- searchin man 17:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
In order to illustrate the Wikipedia article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba.
We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ;
To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle.
Following on from this ;
Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team.
We await your advises with concern.
Thank you.
Brahmakumaris.info 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
User Riveros11 or Avyakt7 enters into this discussion have been allegedly kicked off a discussion forum. He had allegedly been attempting to reveal personal information about another person he had dug off the internet in a menacing manner, presumably intended to win an argument.
As a cult member of this group we are documenting, immediately he commences exactly the strategy attacking me and attempting to connect me with this other individual. Obviously, a strategy of intimidation used by Cults like the Scientologist to frighten individuals off from revealing their truths to the public eye, he now engages a 'buddy' to help him.
The Wikipedia protects individuals and encourages discussion. Its official policy is "no personal attacks" and within personal attacks is stated, "Threats or actions which expose other Wikipedia editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. Violations of this sort may result in a block for an extended period of time which may be applied immediately by any sysop upon discovery". So, in line with policy, I am formaly requesting you to decist from personal attacks and to remove any smears, allegations or confusions you are attacking me with.
As an example of which, I would like to illustrate. Riveros11 or Avyakt7 has an issue with Destruction and Transformation. If we take his user names, those subjects and his known affiliation with this cult and put them into Google, within a few steps it reveals
Within a few steps, one is about 70% on the way to identity theft.
Now, given the current state of tension, fear and security paranoia within the USA; BKWSU teacher Avyakt7 writes on more than on forum, "We, will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. Our technology “know how” have created the bombs. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used". Now, it is also policy that, "membership of an organization does not prohibit an indivdual from contributing". But from this, we could easily say Avyakt7 to be;
You can see how a malicious individual could use such easily gleaned personal information in a personal attack. Now, obviously, I have deliberately constructed an extreme scenario here - even if the citations are there to support it - but what does the general public really know about what is going on inside the mind of Raja Yoga / BKWSU? What even do the neophyte followers know?
I suggest that if we meet in the Wikipedia, we observe the Wiki's policies. When in Rome ... and all that. 195.82.106.244 13:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
info@brahmakumaris.info wrote:
To: avyakt7@yahoo.com Subject: Suspension From: info@brahmakumaris.info Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:21:03 +0100
Hello avyakt7,
The following is an email sent to you by bbsysop via your account on BrahmaKumaris.Info.
Message sent to you follows 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)20:57
Your membership has been suspended and this matter referred to the moderators in order that they come to a decision. Although general guidelines are in place, it is new and voluntary forum and so this might take a few days. No policy regarding the suspensions or banning of individuals was ever invisaged as being necessary amongst Brahmin souls.
If you are willing to follow the guidelines, and can avoid the tendency to make personal attacks, you are welcome to continue to post. If you inspect the forum, you will realize that 3 or 4 separate topics on Destruction, dating back to May, have been combined together as part of regular pruning.
Thank you.
This is the email I received from "ex-i" AKA bbsysop AKA admin AKA .244 "Ex-i" deleted my greeting in my last post. The greeting was "Dear 195.82.106.244" and then Greetings! After I wrote an email where I typed "195.82.106.244" about 10 times to address him.... He decided to drop my account without previous warning. After that, He "pruned" what I shared deleting posts not suitable for him.
I recall the one where I demonstrated that Poincare's theory is not in contradiction with the second law, as he has stated. I showed him a document which I researched for the last 3 years. He has never showed me a logical argument to counteract it. Moreover, the fact that this article was erased by wikipedia editors it does not diminish its validity, considering that this article is about cyclical time which is a subject which is not even dealt with by western scientists.. and of course, a college Kid with a degree is not the most qualified person to judge in 20 minutes something which has taken some years to understand. (the Ocean of Knowledge is very deep.)
I apologize for such a lenghty document to explain the incidents. I have explained to "ex-i" AKA "195.82.106.244" that "destruction" and "transformation" are not contradictory. Shiva's knowledge is not "linear" it is paradoxical. There will be destruction. God Shiva has never released a date for it. However, destruction as per "the end" never happens, it is a "transformation" because everything is eternal but changes through "time." (time is also a paradox) This is spiritual knowledge. Depending on the stress that I want to give to my articles I will use "destruction" or "transformation." Please see, that either term is correct to be used. I have explained this to "ex-i" so many times and he keeps on bringing this issue up.
I have no problem in releasing my identity. As a matter of fact, I respond my emails with my real name in it... unlike: 195.82.106.244 and others who are hiding under an IP or a fake name. If you hide, you are afraid. Are you afraid of what? Brahmakumaris.info are you afraid of my posts? I am a Brahmin and I have never called names to anyone or treated anyone disrespectfully. I will be more than happy to discuss "my science" (as 195.82.106.244 calls it) with any of you in that forum. EX-BKs writing an article by themselves about Brahma Kumaris are not qualified to do so because they have a bias vision. This is rational, logical to see. 195.82.106.244 negativity and bad feelings towards BK is evident; however, he will not understand that. I guess it is his role....
BTW, I don't know who "searchin man" is but I truly appreciate his support. NPOV is needed in this article. I propose to have one person from every position (ie. BK, Ex-BK, PBK, etc.) to be the representative for their division. Once the whole article is written as every party would like to see it here, then it could be discussed and decided among the representatives. Without this kind of "democracy" there will not be a consensus.
Best Wishes.
Avyakt7 AKA Riveros11 -- 72.91.28.223 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It must be noted that the BKWSU goes to great length to hide or refuse access to their inner teaching and is engaged in a process of re-writing them. However, far too much remains in the public domain to make this successful. The following references are not exhaustive or full detailed but significant enough to remove any doubt in a third party. A Sakar Murli is considered by the BKWSU to be the authentic word of God where no other scripture is. It is said by the BKWSU to be God himself speaking through the medium of Lekhraj Kirpalani. An Avyakt Murli is said to be the combined form of a dead Lekhraj Kirpalani and God Shiva speaking through the channel or medium of BK Gulzar. The scriptures are the highest authories within BKWSU teachings, excuding the Murli team that re-writes them to suit the time and the Global PR team that publically denies them.
The following links offer a direct and easily verifiable creference of BKWSU teachings of the destruction of a Nuclear War between Russia and America. Brahma Baba, the medium of Shiva Baba and founder of the BKWSU, had so much of faith in this predication that he signed such picture a declaration was made by the institution and images sent out to the Government of India and other dignitaries notifying them of the coming Destruction of the World and the establishment of Heaven. One can see clearly at the top two cats with human heads wearing military hats. One Russian with the Hammer and Sickle Red Flag, the other American with the Stars and Stripes. These images remain at the organisations Indian headquarters.
See; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//5/51/Catsandtree.jpg, http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//f/f2/Cycle_and_Trimurti_A4.jpg
"Look! The Science-Proud European Yadavas will destroy one and other in this internaional Atomic War (Mahabharata) like 5,000 years ago"
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//2/2d/Tree.jpg and "Adi Dev" by Jagdish Chander referenced in article.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6471058539715764200&q=Brahma+Kumaris Google Video clip of BKWSU promotion video including Destruction/Nuclear war.
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//1/13/Lakshmi_and_Narayan_A4.jpg
and from the BKWSU own website
" Dada also saw how the death came slower through wars and civil wars, culminating in an awesome wave of natural catastrophes: floods and tidal waves, earthquakes of every kind wreaking havoc on the scarred face of the earth. Dada began to tremble uncontrollably upon witnessing the scenes of this great world wide destruction. Humans and animals were running wildly about, trying to save their lives, to escape from the jaws of death. But there was no escape. The wail of horror, the rivers of blood and pus, the panic and the desperation, and then, the final death."
"All become worthy of claiming a right to liberation-in-life, but there is so much difference between the 8 jewels, the 108 victorious jewels, the 16,000 and then the 900,000. There is a rosary of 16,000 and also of 108. In the 108, there are also the eight special ones. All become beads of the rosary. Both types would be called beads. Even the beads of the rosary of 16,000 will say in happiness and intoxication: My Baba and my kingdom. The difference is between claiming a right to the royal throne or a royal status, a right to the royal family and a right to being in connection with the royal family."
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2001/01/26_Revised http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised.
It would be interesting to request a copy of BK Dadi Janki's 2006 class stating that the 900,000 would be ready this year.
" Baba has said: At the time of destruction, those whose intellect has no love will be destroyed. All of them will be destroyed and only you will remain to claim victory. You are establishing a kingdom. "
" The Supreme Soul Himself says: I enter this one's body (Lakhraj Kirpalani) in which his own soul is also present. I enter him ... It is only to the children who have become Brahmins that the Father speaks. He would not tell anyone else. He only loves His children"
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/06_Revised
" Om Shanti. The Spiritual Father (Shiva) sits here and explains to you spiritual children (BKs) ... He says: O children, I have incarnated in this one (Lekhraj Kirpalani) and, through him, I tell you the secrets ... Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) explains this. The path of devotion has been nothing but a waste of time. ... Baba now explains: Those worldly gurus do not grant you salvation. Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) leads you to salvation ... "
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/01/22_Revised
“The university once taught that the current age, or cycle, would end in nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States. This teaching was dropped after the fall of the Soviet Union, said Brother Karuna Shebby, the organization’s chief spokesman, said by telephone from the group’s Mount Abu headquarters in the Indian state of Rajasthan.”
in contradiction to teachings of destruction and nuclear war referenced above. http://brahmakumaris.info/blog/?p=100
See treaching poster referenced above. " Population of at the end of Iron Age 500 crore " Bottom of http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg.
"Destgruction of viscious Iron age World in 10 years" ; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg [ published in 1960s ]
" you Brahmins are the highest, the top-knot. Only these Confluence Aged Brahmins become deities. First of all, the Brahmins are even higher than the deities. The top-knot is the highest. You brahmins worship the deities, and you consider yourselves to be worshippers and them to be worthy of worship. You can explain this to those worshipper-priest brahmins in the temples. You are the true Confluence Aged Brahmins. You are the mouth-born creation of Brahma. You are now becoming deities."
"This donation and charity performed in a second through a powerful stage will make you worthy of being worshipped and remembered for half the Cycle."
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/02/07_Revised
"Then, in terms of being worthy of worship, your worship is so great. No righteous soul or great soul is worshipped in the right way like you deity souls are. "
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2004/02/04_Revised
"When Destruction takes place, they will understand that God has come. Then, those to whom you gave the message will remember: Who were those angels dressed in white? You also see angels in the subtle region, do you not?" - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/05_Revised
"You cannot experience sorrow by this great Destruction because you become angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised
" Then, at the final moments, you angels are guaranteed to become deities. If you want to become like the Father, then the Father is incorporeal and an angel. To become like Father Brahma means to stay in the angelic stage." - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised
"The Father is now once again creating the land of angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/06/07_Revised
OK. I will take a break there. I am not avoiding answering any of the other requests for references or citation. I just think the denial and supression of BKWSU teacher and supporters is becoming increasing silly and that the burden of proof is clear. Actually by attempting to deny and suppress the factual truths about your organization and beliefs you are broadcasting them far wider. Perhaps this is how you want to do service ... I am happy to help.
What you BKWSU teachers and supporters should realise, if that the secrecy and cover up game is over. The internet is going to reveal you for what you are. Indeed, God Shiva has predicted this himself ( ... do you want a citation? We can provide it).
This article, in accordance with wikipedia policies, much like the BK predict of the world, could be 90% wiped away. There are many, many facts claimed and almost no refferences. If no one adds refferences, it will eventually be paired down. Sethie 01:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sethie.
I removed the citation notice from the BKWSU topic as it not required. If you want to raise specific questions, please first read throught the discussion archive and quoted references. Then, where there is serious lack of citations that has not been covered, raise here in detail first where they will be answered.
It is not at all clear whether your objections are philosophical, i.e. that this is not orthodox Hinduism, or specific to the BKs. If they are specific to the BKs, it would help to know what your knowledge of them is based on.
Frankly, given that your comment comes after a page of "easily checkable" references in line with Wiki policy, I must admit that your action has made a negative impression. Let's discuss this first. If your POV is on a passing acquaintance or mutual self interest, be cautious.