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There haven't been any posts since early June so I thought now would be a good time to archive old discussions. Hope that's OK with everyone. Regards Bksimonb 06:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I have uploaded a marked up version of the article to my userspace, here. I have identified what I am certain are multiple issues with the article as it stands. I would say the majority of the issues are quite clear-cut with maybe a few that need more discussion. I have tagged the main article with the issues I have identified and will start cleaning up the most obvious problems after about two days wait.
Why I created a separate page in userspace? Originally, it was to brief an advocate on what issues I saw in the article, however the advocate has had to take a long Wikibreak and the AMA, it seems, is no more. Also, plastering loads of stuff on the discussion page trying to describe exactly where it is in the article etc is messy and floods the discussion page. I thought a marked up version of the article was a much better way to communicate the reasoning.
I would appreciate discussion to take place here, not on the userspace document, to keep things clear and manageable.
Thanks & regards Bksimonb 08:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
i looked as far as the first red bit where it talks about the date of birth of lekhraj...........the correct date is referenced in the Om Radhe book.....she is your "Mama" Simon and writing in the late 1930s when lekhraj was still live ,I think she knows better
also if you look in jagdish chander writings in the 70s , he fudges the issue talking about approximate "55 to 60 years of age" for the incarnation of shivbaba . its on page 154 kripalani was aged 54 in 1938
the age of kripalani was given on documents prepared for legal proceedings.........
you see the problems lies in that in the murlis , it says shiva incarnates when the chariot is 60 years old but om radhe and the om mandli folk prove he was younger
kripalani is also how it is spelt then too , but it is not big deal the two ways are interchangeable......its just a problem with the english translation of it
so , yes, we know the BKWSU edits and re-writes the murli and we know that they re-write their history
the problem we have here is that you younger Bks really dont know your own organisations history and are believing in the PR version.....that ignorance should not prejudice the article , you should go back to your seniors and demand the truth you cant expect to drive home the whitewashed version of bk history Green108 15:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
i understand perfectly well what the Bkwsu are trying to use it for simon
with regards kripalani's age , i gave you a page number all you got to look at it . its not "original research" to copy a fact from a book
simon , just one honest question to you.........if you are a member of the Bkwsus core IT PR team , and tucked up nicely with sister jayanti and dadi janki in GCH...........why cant you access these books and documents from within the Bkwsu? what is their response to such a request? there must be others.its a simple question that really deserves a proper answer.........
btw , we all read how dadi janki was not the most stable mind in the world after 30 years of using it for pr.........in the om radhe book she is not even listed amongst the members in 1938 , still they say she was on the managing committee
why cant we depend on the Bkwsu for a single accurate history? Green108 20:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
i asked an very important, honest question and you ignored it simon
one of the problems we have with you young Bks is that you come along and want to change the article to suit your current PR and you have not even read many of the reference........in short , you dont actually know the real history.......you only know the PR version
have you or can you access these original books and documents from within the Bkwsu? what is sister jayanti's and dadi janki's response to such a request?
it is impossible to enter into a discussion with you if you insist on ignoring them
i made a historical point. the article reflects the reality of the Bkwsu which is they have faked and re-written their history , many younger Bks dont know the truth of it........and consequently reporting of it is mixed.
look, you are a key member of the BKWSU Core Internet PR Team ,aren't you? and riveros some fanatical Bk follower that goes about posting about "the bombs being ready and they are going to be used" on public forums and faking ids to mess with this article..................this isnt PR for western Bks , we are trying to document the BKWSU in the whole
in that analysis of the article you try to discredit the original posters.......in 1949 there was no mention of Shiva, just God Brahma Green108 11:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
i disagree
i am trying to establish trust by giving the Bkwsu internet PR team a chance to be open and honest , to actually engage in discussion rather pull the rug from under other contributors feet
i am asking you a question , can you access these documents from within the Bkwsu and what is the response of the seniors to them because to me you appear to be ignoring them as they dont fit in your organisations aim to re-write this topic along the lines of current pr
that poster , dated 1949 ,clearly states Destruction within one year and as a matter or interest ,why is there no mention of shivbaba only Prajapati God Brahma?
Green108 03:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
To all: I removed the "or monastic" because the source was one sentence combined with IKSON:"The same appears to be the case with inner members of Brahma Kumaris which, like ISKCON, is a monastic or semi-monastic religious order" [2]. The citation that remains is academic, in goes into the area in detail on the Brahma Kumaris and doesn't compare/contrast nor add "appears" which is conjecture with no examples. I have ordered all his books and will look to see if he can prove his conjecture as posted on the website cited. As to the editor that claims he is not celibate and goes on to MT ABU, I guess he tells tall tales to get in or is celibate for six months prior, then falls off his stage. There are those that want to practice according to their beliefs in all religions, but when adjusting the beliefs to suit their life style, I do believe they are called "heretics". I have yet to meet a practicing BK yogi, that is not celibate and is off to the discos on the weekends. Please provide information on how someone can be a semi-yogi! PEACE TalkAbout 18:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Bksimonb, I think I fixed it, as it reads now, it is very clear that the primary function of the medium is to channel the murlis and information. So, no worries about thishttp://www.fromthebalcony.com/images/2005/exorcism_of_emily_rose_the/emilyrose03.jpg. I also included a section from another book which refers to communication between the living and the dead, but I think this one citation will suffice and no need to over do it.
Bksimonb Qoute: "It teaches a form of meditation[1] called Raja Yoga (not the classical Raja Yoga as described by Patanjali[4]) and a study of messages brought via a medium."
Did I miss the discussion on the tagging of the article by the BKs? Or was it just a unilateral action again?
I also disagree with Simon. Tagging the article with a huge tag like that is just another ploy on behalf of the BKs to try and devalue and discredit the article as it is.
There was no consensus sought about this. Simon, why did not you just make a template up that says, “The BKWSU doesn’t like this. Its does not fit in with our PR and marketing and it exposes facts we don’t like to tell non-BKs.”?
The problem is, as a leading member of the BKWSU’s “Internet PR Core Team on behalf of the RCOs”, as it is called, your vision is deeply biased. Most people think the article is fine. It is very well researched and referenced.
BTW, just to see how fair and even handed you are, do you think we can we mention the stuff about the Dadi Janki not being the “most stable mind in the World” - as was widely claimed - as one of the controversies? I would say that was a fairly serious abd continous deceit on behalf of the old girl and her followers.
Green108 15:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
i just fixed a small typo made by a new user , the line is not exactly accurate according to gyan.......you know the Bk stuff about nuclear war , natural disasters , the continents sinking and only india being left for krishna to reincarnate in
i am not fussed by it the way it is just if you want accuracy then you want accuracy Green108 20:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
User:Riveros11 is a BK follower and member of their IT team
since he was shown in the dispute mentioned at the top of the page to have multiple sockpuppet accounts to try and gain control of the article and have other contributors banned his integrity is in doubt
your collective actions are causing an identical repeat of the previous case
please discuss proposed changes before you make them Green108 14:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
There has been widespread reporting in the media of this. The Indian president candidate Pratibha Patil has been to the Brahma Kumari headquarters to talk to their "ghost". The ghost apparently backed her campaign.
Should this not be reported here as a media controversy? If others agree, I will present the most reliable references.
I must say. Although I am not a member. I knew a family that lost a son to this group. They encouraged him to give up his studies. He gave them thousands of pounds. When he was in it, you could not talk him. He was very much like these other followers. I think they encourage fanaticism within their followers.
Faithinhumanity 17:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
yes , i agree Green108 19:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
very interesting.....look at that! World_Renewal_Trust_Deed
ramesh shah started the world renewal trust in 16th january 1969 and lekhraj kripalani / kirpalani died the day after he was shown it from a heart break..........and to think that the BKs actually celebrate his death on january the 18th.
ok ,we have to have this in the article.........is it agreed as a reliable date?
this is perfectly sound evidence and imagine , the BKs have said all along they were run by women and here is proof that a man set up the trust and was a trustee from day one Green108 19:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. I started adding some citations tags where citations are needed in the article. If those citations are not provided in a reasonable amount of time, ( A week sounds good to me...according to Jossi's previous suggestion) the contents under those citations will be deleted... so, that is 7/24/07... Best, avyakt7 20:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I've done a little cleanup because the article was looking really ugly with all those unnecessary templates. I've removed unsourced statements (except a few, which are tagged with {{ fact}} or {{ page number}} and can be removed after some time if no source is provided). I've also trimmed down the "Controversies" section -- half the stuff mentioned in the section involved no controversy. Also, I've removed some original research, which was referenced, but the references didn't support the statements made.
In future, instead of tagging the article with so many tags, please consider using tags for relevant sections and statements. utcursch | talk 16:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Utcursch could you offer some of the specific quotation referred to e.g. Abbott, Elizabeth Hardy, Hardayal (1984) Green108 11:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
a contributor has introduced the theory of om mandli being "a committee"
this is of course entirely wrong..........om mandli was "the gathering of souls" all 500 of them at its height , the management committee was chosen from amongst the om mandli members , its also difficult to see how this was the "nucleus" of the Bkwsu........it was the precusor , incidentally where is the evidence that Lekhraj handed over his wealth?
having been accused myself of original research to make such constructions goes too far
i also notice the introduction of very specific cultic language........for example , murli in the top paragraph and rasa lila in the early history Kripalani being referred to as "Dada" , so i suppose we are dealing with more BKWSU intervention here........
rasa lila is the real world is a folk dance , rasa lila to the Bks means that Lekhraj kripalani was krishna and the Bk followers were the gopis surrounding him.........all very unencyclopediac ,a sort of double language that only Bks might get
it is riduculous to suggest that "dancing" was a key component of Om Mandli......likewise "preached" Bhagavad Gita
so , no, i am afraid not.......we will have to revert some of that to neutral "lokik" language Green108 11:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
utcursch if you dont know the subject , and your chosen references contradict other references you should really join the discussion of major changes such as you have made
one of the big problems with the Bkwsu is that they have re-written their history considerably and many of the academics have referred only in passing to a PR version of their history
we see this particularly in the Bkwsu's own publications such as their biographies 'adi dev' for Lekhraj Kripalani and 'an unique experience' for vishwa ratan where they have re-written a fictionalised version of event which is contradicted by the hard evidence
now, beyond walliss's reference of their re-writing the channelled messages , i am avoiding emphasising this on the topic............but in our choice of academic references we need to use these as touch stones for reality............otherwise the topic will only be accused of being a pr job or an advertisement
looking at vishwa ratan's book , he has been completely dishonest about the creation of the poster and , broadly, the Bkwsu has written much of their early history out of the picture
i should mention to you that there is a vociferous dispute between the Bkwsu and a splinter group called the PBK AIVV that has resulted even in violence and mulitple banishment on behalf of the Bkwsu.........BK simon refers to this in passing (Mr Dixit)
i would like it noted have i nothing to do with this splinter group i have never met their leader not studied with them and do not even know the full reasons for the depth of emotions involved Green108 14:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
as i pointed out to utcursch , Dada is not his name and so i am reverting.........look i appreciate that the Bks are going to revert anything i do as a matter of principle but to call someone dada lekhraj in indian is a bit like call some uncle in english
eg as the article on josef stalin is in his known name , rather than "Uncle Joe" its safe to say we should use real names rather than dadas, didiji and the likes which are subjective judgements which might be mistake by non-indians for being names Green108 14:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
lets get a grip.......the man's name was Lekhraj Kripalani , no talkabout dont confuse the issue even more that is worse as it is not even accurate from a Bk point of view.it is never used in that way
dada is an indian term ,the closest example we have would be "uncle"............it is not a name ,it is not a character or assumed personality like david bowie . as yet he does not have the status of Gandhi ,or even gates or bowie...........bill is a name , dada is a term of endearment.........so, the gandhi topic is not listen as bapuji , is it?
to his own community (non-BKs), he was known as "Bhai Lekhraj" . so a handful of closely related families called the man "uncle lekhraj" ( Dada Lekhrajbefore they started to think he was brahma incarnate)..............are you going to base a wikipedia article on that?
most readers are not indian , they will think Dada is his name......lets not confuse or mislead them Green108 19:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
the man's is Lekhraj Kripalani or Kirpalani if you wish , its time to grow up and accept that.
just because you two Bks think he is your baba, the wikipedia is no place for such talk . to say Dada Lekhraj is like calling for eg the president's father "Daddy Bush" . if we look eg at Papa Doc ,you see the topic is in his own real name
end of story........facts not faith Green108 09:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
(outdented) They did not have second names back then , so what about Papa Doc example? In the Bowie article, they use a mix for literary purposes but generally the second name bowie = kripalani/kirpalani
What on earth is the problem in calling the man by his name transliterated to either Kripalani or Kirpalani? really???
Dada is not a name , its means father. its like calling some politician "Daddy George" 20 times in his article
let's face it , you two are his followers and so for you it is an act of faith...He is your "Creator" and you think he is the father of humanity all the sites on the internet are either by his devotees or copying them
the rest of the world does not agree
additionally , you are trying to work up a case to remove me and you think by making up admin complaints , pushing me to 3RRs (actually dada is the new edit) and so on you might do so
I reverted the article back to the version which includes the properly laid out references and corrected punctuation and downplayed the dadas once is enough
I don't see any reason to removing proper references , a lot of work went into them...a little more is needed . both of you BKWSU followers are not still not being honest in your summaries Green108 12:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
tell me.......what is wrong with his real name? he was a great asset to the Kripalani clan and Sindis in general.
lekhraj kripalani was never as famous or influential as all the people mentioned above in their lifetimes , and is still not......the sai baba page is also a warzone between cult followers and non-followers
lekhrak kirpalani may be your Dada-Daddy but he had no wish to be sanctified or remembered........indeed ,the murlis say you should not even keep a picture of him and remembering him was bad
as regards the date of birth its verifiable...........first , we have om radhe, then we have the Chief Justice of India who was his legal counsel, in the mid-70s Bkwsu publicist jagdish chander confirmed it and so i find those quite convincing in a way that recent Bkwsu cover ups or publicity materials are not
i am sorry , i am not the sort to keep running to admins and expect them to my work for me Green108 00:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to ask User:Utcursch for comments regarding the first few sentences of the article, particularly with regards to the use of the words "spirit possession". This can sound rather shocking and as it stands it reads as if it is part of the Raj Yoga meditation training. This is not the case. The reference for this description is from "New Religious Movements: challenge and response" and the relevent passage is quoted below.
The Brahma Kumaris present a similar pattern of a founder who favoured and promoted women, and has been run mainly by women since his death. In some respects the role reversal is more complete than in the Osho movement, since women are teachers as well as administrators, and there is a very clear doctrine on gender equality. They are concerned with women's issues and spiritual leadership. However, as with sannyasins, Brahma Kumaris women become core members by being fully `surrendered'; and their prominence derives from their mediumistic cababilities, channelling murlis (sermons) from their dead founder. As a result, `their power is veiled through the device of possession. Women, even when they; possess power, cannot be seen to wield it. Hence, the importance of spirit possession where women are the instruments or mouthpieces of a male spirit."
I would say that a theory is being presented and some of the statements made do not describe what actually happens, or at least present it in a misleading way. If this reference is used I propose it is used with attribution later in the article since I don't think that the first paragraph should aim to present such an odd view. To summarize, this is how things actually do work with regards to mediumship,
Please comment on how you see the first paragraph should go based on your experience on Wikipedia the references you have kindly taken the time to study.
Thanks & regards Bksimonb 15:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
no, the object of the Raj Yoga meditation is complete surrender mentally and physically to the possessing spirit that they claim entered into lekhraj kripalani and still enters into gulzar up in abu road
it has nothing to do with who or what other religions think is god....to Bks , god is that "ghost" that spoke to the Indian presidency candidate , he only speaks to them and at this time
from a Bk point of view , what simon is saying here is complete nonsense........this is not what the god of the Bkwsu teaches to its followers ,i would go as far it is dishonest and deliberately deceptive and can quote the murlis to prove it
Bks dont believe that god came to speak to anyone at any other time than now and only they get the message ,
its typically vague talk intended to deceive the real truth of what the Bkwsu teaches and believes , this is the problem we have to deal with........... Green108 19:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
and if we are going to consider the whole issue of channelling and mediumship , we have to put it into not just a historical context of the other mediums at the start of the history........those after kripalani's death..........but also consider "The Inspiration Party" which Bks believe /are taught are dead senior Bks that are going about in a ghost like form doing service through Bks to this day
i do not know if it is referenced by academics...........it might be something the Bks are hush-hush about............but it is in the channelled messages . Bks believe themselves ,and are prepared, to be used by the disincarnate spirits of deceased members........so they say
so ,yes, mediumship and channelling are key difference between their and the classic ancient raja yoga Green108 18:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
i spent some time on minor housekeeping........would those habitual reverters please pay heed to this
i put a space before references and fullstops after trying to tidy the article up , please try and keep it uniform and lets try and get the page listed on the front of the wikipedia one day! Green108 21:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
For the record: [10] As I said, green108, it is a cycle after all. Enjoy your day off... Best, avyakt7 13:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems that someone is rather working overtime...Another piece for the akashic records of Wikipedia. Note the immediacy of changes and complete reversal of other edition. I wonder who could that be?
inetnum: 212.126.145.0 - 212.126.147.255 netname: FREEUK-NETS-1 descr: FreeUK modem pool country: GB
avyakt7 15:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
We need more Om Shanti, Brothers and Sisters. BKs do not defame the Father in this way. Please stop making conflict in this way.
BK Angel
the problem with the recent bibliography ,is that all the academics have depended on facts, figures and a version of the history as given by the Brahma Kumaris themselves..............primarily from the hagiography (biography idealizing its subject) of Lekhraj Kripalani called Adi Dev by one of his financially supported followers named Jagdish Chander
looking at the actual text of "Struggles and Sorrows; The Personal Testimony of a Chief Justice" by Justice Hardayal Hardy (p 37 to 39), rather than depending on google snippets ,you will read;
"Another case I did involved Dada Lekhraj Kripalani of Hyderabad who owned a jewellery shop in Calcutta. He sold his shop and returned to Hyderabad with approximately Rs 10 lakhs as his assets. He bought a house and settled there. Dada Lekhraj was about 54 years old"
This was in 1938. As Justice Hardy was not only Lekhraj Kripalani's counsel but went on to be the Chief Justice of India, I think we can consider his work to be reliable and authoritative
the big issue about this is that the Bks have re-written their history and the channelled messages they claim are the words of god..........in the murlis , the channelled entity says he enters the body of his chariot when the chariot is 60 years old.........time and time again , we find that Kripalani was only in his mid 50s......as chander in the 1970s also noted (approximately 55)
it is this that the Pbk splinter group has jumped on as proof that kripalani was not the original medium of god ,and because of the aggressive supression of the Pbks......all sort of crazy denial has set in about this, the age has been removed from the murlis just like the stuff about "God not mounting a virgin" when the current medium of the spirit is dadi gulzar, a virgin
Ok.........that is the background for those that do not know the history ,the re-writing and advance party stuff is all referenced in walliss work Green108 18:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Cranks overestimate their own knowledge and ability, and underestimate that of acknowledged experts.
- Cranks insist that their alleged discoveries are urgently important.
- Cranks rarely if ever acknowledge any error, no matter how trivial.
- Cranks love to talk about their own beliefs, often in inappropriate social situations, but they tend to be bad listeners, and often appear to be uninterested in anyone else's experience or opinions.
- In addition, many cranks
- seriously misunderstand the mainstream opinion to which they believe that they are objecting,
- ....
- claim that their ideas are being suppressed by secret intelligence organizations, mainstream science, powerful business interests, or other groups which, they allege, are terrified by the possibility of their allegedly revolutionary insights becoming widely known,
its funny you say that a friend and supporter of Bk hansa patel gave evidence of how he had removed reports of hansa's claims that raja yoga cures cancer off the internet............and in the letters he said that the Pentagaon and Department of Defence
the link is here BK Hansa Raval; cancer cure claims & tax free future
he said that Bk hansa's legal counsel, the Department of Defense and the Pentagon are taking legal actions towards the authors of the fictitious article and any website posting the article!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the funny this is ,the author wrote it in praise of the Bkwsu and the individual doing the stirring is a Bk supporter (ex-us military like hansa patel).........so you are right , this stuff attracts a lot of nuts and we have to be careful of our references . any way , back to the article Green108 13:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
i did a pretty major bit of maintenance work on the references putting them into shap as User:Utcursch did..............they are about 95% complete but have a few quotes and ISBN numbers and proper dates to go back in ,so i am working on it just now
i have a couple of question , if the same reference is used but a different quote..........technically how do you do that?
what is the proper way to lay out the bibliography at the end?
i have a general observation to make ,because of the persistent trolling of the BKWSU Internet PR Team , I think the article has become over referenced................they have always attacked each and every word demanding citations and have pretty much always been given them
its impossible to seriously edit the piece if individuals have not got or read or refuse to read the actual quoted works............there must be a limit to how far others are expect to go to appease interested parties that are not informed............surely, beyond a certain point such behaviour has to be seen for what it is!!!!!!!!!!! Green108 13:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not 244, he got banned ......but you can think what you like, but that is not relevant here.....avaykt 7 I don't come on here to hear your ideas and churnings on gyan, love and peace Green108 13:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
244, In the past you have performed the same behavior. As you know, you are not allowed to erase any admin messages in your talk page. Are you afraid of showing your 24 hrs block to the world? As always, you do not follow the rules of the game. Your old sanskars keep popping out, 244. So, in this cycle, what comes next, 244? Are you spinning the cycle of wikipedia? I believe arbitration comes next... just like before? Best, avyakt7 16:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry Simon to say the same about you, I know who you are and you've become something quite different. It is sad. Avyakt 7, when you leave gyan which I suspect won't be in the too distant future, you will look back on all this and the way you feel now in a different light. All the best. Green108 17:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Green108, I've reverted your edits because they were undoing valid edits originally made by Utcursch and Andries. Your changes were quite extensive and may have contained some valid changes but I'm not going to sift through them as long as I can see that there are also tendentious edits that undo the valid input of other, more experienced, editors who are not emotionally involved with the subject matter, as your posts and edits indicate that you are.
It is a pity you feel there is no point in dialogue with BK editors. However, judging by the way you force your edits over Utcursch and Andries it seems to me that you are not interested in dialogue with any editor. Period.
Regards Bksimonb 12:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
this is incorrect.........i included andries correction (the only problem was a missing bracket which i just fixed), have corresponded with Utcursch and ,and having actually read the books in question provided full citations from books for where he has relied on partial google extracts..........as you well know the issue of the ras lila has no real significance at all unless if we want to discuss whether it was trance dancing as the girls had visions of krishna and the golden age
otherwise be specific , all i can see is that you are riveros are trying to set me up for another 3rr with this "Dada versus real name" business and date of birth which is not reported correctly.
you have worked your way through just about every complaint in the book , why not just be honest about what you are trying to achieve Green108 13:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
i am sorry..........i really wanted to avoid continuing the conflict but i have to flag up the misleading use of the edit summaries by the Bk team simon and riveros . can this please stop ?
the issue is whether we use "Daddy" Lekhraj or call the man by his name Lekhraj Kripalani ,i say his formal name is more correct and inline with other individuals on the wikipedia.........he is not a mahatma gandhi yet and it is not the place of the wikipedia to deify him
i have replace the version with the resolved references.........a lot of work went into fixing them
i see simon has also put in another admin complaint trying to have me ban ,it seems to be that he and riveros are working together to try and trip others up with 3rrs and the rest , as a rule i wont become involved in tit for tat complaining but as long as others are aware of this ,i stand by my edits Green108 13:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I am going to answer this honestly and openly. No doubt you will try and use this against me. Hopefully anyone else ,like the admins , whose time and energy you are willing to co-opt into doing what the BKWSU calls "service" and i call PR will read this and take it into consideration.
You have to understand Simon , the real problem for both you two BKs, the others that made their mark and the seniors Bks that stand behind and encourage you is because of the dissonance between the truth and what you have been led to believe to strengthen your faith or encouraged to use as propaganda in "service". This when perhaps for the first time in the west , the inner workings and environment of the Bkwsu are being exposed and openly discussed in public through websites like http://www.brahmakumaris.info.
Forget the all the jostling......if you really believe in the knowledge , Instead of putting all your energy as a team into getting me or any other ex-BK , ex-centrewasi or whatever that comes along banned ,blocked , reverted.......why not put a fraction of it into actually resolving the actual facts of the history rather than trying to jig the article based on? (e.g. why did mama and jagdish write 54/55?)
suppression is generally only counter productive.......if it does not pop up here , it will pop up somewhere else Green108 10:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
did you download the Om Radhe book from the http://www.brahmakumaris.info? what else do they have hiden away that they thought would never see the light of day again?
how and when did they actually introduce the so-called Shiva spirit........it was sometime after 1949 , there is no mention of him beforehand . dont you find that interesting and interesting why they covered it all up?
what is really going on for you is that you are starting to look at what you have been told by the senior sisters, what they are doing to gyan and measure it up against the truth , you are starting to realise the difference between facts and PR........well done, you are actually starting to wake up Green108 03:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
As a neutral observer, both sides need to stop reverting and compromise. One observation that I have is that WP:COMMONNAMES applies to the naming of articles. Those articles should then be linked to without piping or redirects. Whichever side relying on pipes or redirects is the one which is wrong. Please adjust the article accordingly. IPSOS ( talk) 00:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes please. At least leave the sorted out reference tags and punctuation! I did not upload the pdf, which policy is that against? Thanks Green108 07:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
'Is this justice?' is written in his follower's name..........his future wife and emperess of the world.........
just out of interest if the Bkwsu has its own copy , why does it keep perpetrating myths such as the 1936 and 60 years of age in all its publicity and pr materials and misleading academics?
it is clearly stated ........1938..........age 54 his laywer and chief justice............age 54 jagdish chander in the 1970s..............age 55
why do all your websites still say Shiva descended in 1936 saying Shivohum when he was 60, causing Dada to retire when Radhe records he retired in 1932, there is no mention of shiva amongst them until at least after 1950 and the move to madhuban?
the only place it changes is in the murlis where shiva says........aged 60
does that not mean the history has been re-written or even falsified at some point?
i think where your point fails is that the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is not a religion, it is a University , or at least that is what Bks always say , its seems to most people that the Bkwsu is trying to mythologise and then sanctify him through its publicity and the wikipedia
in almost most cases , indian religious figures were part of a recognised traidition in which a spiritual names would be given to them by their guru........the problem with Kripalani is that he was not and was not , he made it up for himself........the Bkwsu would also argue that the Bkwsu was not a sect of hinduism , not in any way bound or related to hindu traditions..........sow hat is your point? Green108 12:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
we have to look at the spirit of the law not just the word of the law
if you read the history of "Original Research" came about to stop crank physicist putting forward novel theories.......the emphasis in on taking known elements and producing some new conclusion
now, it is neither rocket nor crank science to read a book that says, "aged 54, dated July 1938" and report that......i think we should apply the same rigor that a proper encyclopaedia or dictionary does and where there are two conflicting elements , take the oldest and most reliable one. Not the current corporate PR
54 in 1938 was written when kripalani was alive , with his full knowledge (and probably direction) and is repeated exactly by his advocate who went on to be the Chief Justice of India.......that really is good enough .
but let's not ignore the real issue here.........by the slavish adoption of the word of many little "laws" , the Core BKWSU Internet PR Team is attempting on one hand to wind me up.......and on the other hand , by simon's own admission , get me banned for it Green108
I just had a look and found the article rather difficult to understand, so I changed some punctuation to try to make it clearer. Also used the spelling "Mandali," as it seemed the more common, though both it and Mandli were used. If I got it wrong, please correct me. Regarding your sources, I think both sides will see it as a good thing if you cut out all refs that aren't supported by truly neutral and respected sources. Cheers. Rumiton 10:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
congratulation to simon for finally becoming a 'wiki scholar' instead of a 'wiki lawyer'!
Rumiton , can i ask you an honest question.........? what do you actually know about the Bkwsu and how many of the books and references listed have you actually read properly , as in read not looked up in google?
i appreciate your attention to detail on fixing the typos but have to flag up that ON MORE THAN ONE OCASSION you actually EDITED A CITED REFERENCE rather than the article..........you cannot do that!!!!!!!!!!!! the references are what the authors wrote!!!
a few other minor things , if you are sticking around.......i never really understood why folks feel the need to fiddle on the wiki , make minor insigificant changes for no obvious good........i dont understand why you would need to put in extra 'as' like........as "poison", as "criminal assault" and "the gateway to hell.".......also folks are putting back in extra fullstops where they are not need , what's the protocol? i put the reference tag INSIDE the fullstop to which they relate NOT outside........you and simon seen to put the full stops before the references , i think this is because you dont get how the tags work and you think there has to be a fullstop instead of realising that there is already one AFTER the tag
personally , i'd also say indian english and british english rule on this topic no need to change stuff so no need to changing legal actions to lawsuits..........technically there legal actions are correct because not all or any of them became lawsuits . again this is why i ask , what do you know? Green108 00:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
i removed the book licenteous comedy by chander , it was written by a different jagdish chander......what is prakashmani's real name so i can list her? Green108 03:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
no , its little to do with the topic someone needs to start a page on it...... Bhiabund
yes , legal actions is correct English , ask an English lawyer..........it is English-English which is what i write in......there is some talk about British versus American English on the wikipedia
yes , i agree, i found the style guideline page and it says references should go out side fullstops but one only not before and after!!! if no one beats me to correcting them all at once , i will do it at some point Green108 12:42, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Having examined the historical creation and elaboration of the millenarian message of the Brahma Kumaris, l would like to address its current status in the final section of this paper. I will sketch two ongoing re-interpretations of the original message: one from within the movement and another by a radical break-away sect known as 'the Advance Party' or `the Shankar Party'.
- This new direction has, however, caused some discontentment within certain segments of the University. The most vocal of these being the self-styled `Advance Party' who, through their critique, offer a new, radicalised rendition of the original millenarian message.
- In many ways, the Advance Party may be seen as a sectarian response to the Brahma Kumaris. A central theme, reiterated throughout their website,7 is what they see as the increasingly worldly and therefore corrupt nature of the University, manifested particularly through their UN work and increasingly New Age orientation. Again, using the metaphor of the cycle they assert that the University has 'fallen' from its original (in the era of Lekhraj) purity to a state where adulteration of Godly knowledge and subtle corruption is rampant and ignorant students arc being exploited by the higher-ups ('Advance Party' website: Churning Points V). Moreover, through a close re-reading of Leckhraj's communications the University, they claim-that Cod has manifested Himself through another body in order to not only correctly interpret the original Brahma Kumaris teachings, but also to reveal to the Advance Party, amongst whom He is Currently living, the `true' nature of future events.
- This focuses particularly on Lekhraj's original eschatology, although differing at specific points. Primarily, where Lekhraj is said to have given no date for the end; although 1976 was the unofficial line, the Advance Party promote 2001.
- Similarly, while the Brahma Kumaris hold that the world will recognise Lekhraj as God incarnates shortly before the end, the Advance Party present a more radical vision. They claim that it will be God's present incarnation, an Advance Party member, that will be revealed to the world and that, as a result, the Brahma Kumaris, recognising their error, will merge with them. Finally, in contrast to the Brahma Kumaris view that at the end, all life on earth will die, the Advance Party claim that they, that is the Advance Party, will survive in order to prepare the world for the Golden Age which will begin in 2036.
"The Successful Subtle Soft-sell of Raja Yoga" is an important essay because it captures exactly one particular aspect of how the Bkwsu works that others dont
Here are the author's qualifications.......17 years in pastoral ministry, qualified teacher, Diploma in Ministry, Diploma in Religious Education, Diploma in Teaching, Diploma in Theology, a Graduate Diploma in Educational Technology, Post Graduate Diploma of Arts (Religious Studies).........i would say that is good enough
Eromain has two degrees, developed the Bkwsu teacher's programme , was a long time Bk . he documents child sex abuse at the organisations Madhuban and Delhi headquarters and the leadership's response to it , its is not an easy subject to handle...........what makes him biased? it takes real steel to handle such subjects
i am sorry but i have read some of the organisations directions on this subject and how they want to avoid all references to it............may be you were at the meeting about it at the oxford? if i had not heard that they are denying it now , i might not think that other motives were at play here . its fine and should stay Green108 21:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
i suggest that you refrain from editing other people's posts on this discussion page
as you are a member of the BKWSU Internet PR Team , then i would prefer that this matter is discussed in its full and accurate context Green108
Unless he is a "recognized authority" then this link is out....
Sethie
17:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This is messy. I note first factual matters. 1) Google appears not to index this page, as I found no search that included it in its results. 2) Copies or excerpts of the report have been posted on at least two discussion boards that Google indexes, but these boards are clearly inferior sources to the original. 3) Wikipedia discourages the posting on Wikipedia of letters or emails (or other communications) without consent of the original author. 4) Serious academic research in the social sciences considers letters and emails to be primary sources, and further to be ones of significant evidentiary value. 5) E. Romain was a published author under BKSWU's auspices on the subject of teaching. One work of which he was an author is cited as "Church, A., Edwards, L. and Romain, E. (1990) Cooperation in the Classroom. London, Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University: Global Cooperation for a Better World." in a book on promoting mental health in schools. 6) I was unable to find any academic links to this particular source. 7) The article is under article probation from the ArbComm (link at top). 8) Wikipedia considers secondary sources more reliable than primary sources for the purpose of building the encyclopedia.
With that background I prepare to evaluate this situation. There are two separate questions. First, is this a reliable source for use in the article? Second, if it is not a reliable source, is it a good external link?
Is this a reliable source for use? I avoid the question of whether using it adheres to the neutral point of view policy, as the answer to that will depend on the entire content of the article, including how the source is used, not on the content of the source, and further was not a topic on which feedback was solicited. First, is this a primary, secondary, or tertiary source? It is clearly not a tertiary source. I believe that the appendices are clearly primary sources. The purpose of the document is described as "a personal assessment of the current level of child protection and child welfare practices in the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (BKWSU)" [emphasis added]. With this purpose, and reading the document, I would say that it is better described as a primary source than a secondary source. "Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source." (from WP:PSTS). The report is clearly self published. WP:SPS says that "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." The only evidence I found that E. Romain had published in the relevant field was a book published by BKWSU. The ArbComm findings include a finding that "material published in Brahma Kumaris related publications is considered self published and thus not verifiable by reliable sources." With this decision made, I have no evidence that E. Romain meets the test of "whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications", even though he is now independent of BKWSU and more of a critic than a supporter. Accordingly, the report does not meet Wikipedia's standards for a reliable source - but if we found evidence that his work in this field had been published by third-party publications then this answer would reverse.
Second, is it a good external link under our guideline? Although the source is not strong enough for use as a source, it is in my eyes reliable enough to be considered a serious report and evaluated as such. Use of communications in academic research is not considered a copyright infringement, and the site is not blacklisted, so neither restriction on linking applies. The report also does not meet any of the four criteria for things that should be linked. The fourth point of "Links to be considered" is "Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." The report clearly meets this test. Contrary to [[ Bksimonb's]] assertion above, this report does not fail "Links normally to be avoided" #2, which is further defined at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Examples#Use of electronic or online sources; the forums at which excerpts or copies have been posted would fail that test, the original of the report does not. However, "Links normally to be avoided" #11 is a real issue. As discussed in the reliable source question, we probably can't treat E. Romain as a "recognized authority". This leaves the link caught in both the categories of "to be considered" and "normally to be avoided". I think the right answer to this is consider and avoid. The ArbComm restrictions ice the cake, and thus we should exclude it. GRBerry 17:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This is the quote from "Is This Justice?"
In correspondence with U.M. Mirchandani the District Magistrate of Sind
2 July 1938, "Please let me have the list of members of the Mandli and the guardians of the children in the Om Nivas School". Signed U.M. Mirchandani
4 July 1938, " Enclosed please find the list of Om Mandli members and guardians of the childreen living in Om Nivas." Signed Om Radhe.
Lekhraj Khubchand Kripalani aged 54
I took the time to copy this out. In July 1938, Kripalani was aged 54. Kripalani was alive, why would feel any need to fake it back then? Green108 20:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I see the minor revisions I made to try to make the article more understandable have been reverted in a pretty antagonistic way, and no other editor has commented. It seems to me I was wrong about this article being improvable. I think you guys intend to spar here forever. I have passed the situation here to more experienced editors and admins. Good luck. Rumiton 11:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
i agree......just ask!!! stop dodging the issue and playing wikilawyer simon
you are the BK PR man , go to Dadi Janki......and say , "Mama Saraswati says Baba was 54 in 1938.... in the 70s BK Jagdish Bhai said he was around 55 when god entered him......now we say he was 60 in 1936 , which one is true and why did it change?"
its so easy.......then report back to us (his son is still alive and in contact......why ask him!!!)
the whole problem stems from these people's inaccuracy and re-writing of their history , let us at least hear what they have to say Green108 20:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This article has been protected from editing for 48 hours due to persistent edit warring. Please discuss the issue to find consensus. Disruptive editing and revert warring are not acceptable. If you cannot come to an agreement or compromise through discussion, please seek dispute resolution. If the conflict and behaviour continues, preventative blocks may be used to disrupt the conflict. Thank you. Vassyana 18:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I will analyze the first part of the article. If there is a positive response, I will continue with the remaining article otherwise, I will consider that compromise in this article may need additional measures.
1.The practise taught by BKWSU involves spirit possession (where women are the instruments or mouthpieces of the male spirit) and mediumistic channelling[5][6]. The practice taught by BKWSU does not involve spirit possession. Please supply a scholar reference where this is stated. the practice of Raja Yoga has no relationship with channelling. Raja Yoga students are not engaged in channeling. The way the first part of the article is written is misleading.
2.Hardy, Hardayal's book is referenced several times. I argue that he is not a scholar who has expertise in the subject. This could be considered a secondary source, if anything but i would like to come to terms with the editors about the sources that we are going to use. I believe most of us agree that Walliss for instance, is a good source. He is a scholar and have expertise in the subject matter, just to give an example.
3."Hindu organizations denounced Om Mandali as a disturber of family peace and some followers were mistreated by their families. " I would like to see the reference for this statement.
4."He was also accused of forming a cult and controlling his community through the art of hypnotism; children were removed from his school[8]." I think this paragraph is misquoted. there are 2 issues here which are not related, hypnotism and children. which one of them the supplied reference points to?
5.Radhe, Brahma-Kumari ? She was stated as a source for a reference. Qualifications , please?
6."To avoid persecution, lawsuits and opposition from the family members of his followers, Lekhraj Kripalani moved his followers from Hyderabad to Karachi." Where is this coming from? I doubt that to be scholar. It is not a fact. The fact is "Lekhraj Kripalani and followers moved to Karachi." The part before that is just speculation.
7.Problem with this paragraph: "To avoid persecution, lawsuits and opposition from the family members of his followers, Lekhraj Kripalani moved his followers from Hyderabad to Karachi. The Anti-Om Mandali Committee, led by the father-in-law of his daugher, and composed of members of his Bhaibund community, which had opposed the group in Hyderabad, followed them[15]. Some Hindu members of the Sindh Assembly threatened to resign unless the Om Mandali was outlawed. Finally, the Sindh Government used the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908 to declare the Om Mandali an unlawful association[7]. Under further pressure from the Hindu leaders in the Assembly, the Government also ordered the Om Mandali to close and vacate its premises[16]. The Om Mandali successfully appealed against the Government order in court." The end result was that the Om Mandali was successful and accepted. Why place so many accusations which at the end were proven wrong? (because "The Om Mandali successfully appealed against the Government order in court.") I can accuse anyone from anything. Innocent until proven guilty.
8. "In April 1950, after the partition of India, the Brahma Kumaris moved to Mount Abu in India, claiming that they had been instructed by God to do so[10]. After Kripalani's death in 1969, his followers expanded the movement to other countries[17]." Jagdish Chander should not be there. As we know he is not considered a reliable source from the perspective of an encyclopedia.
It would like to offer this alternative: (references could be added if required) Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (BKWSU), or Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya, is considered by several religious scholars and academicians to be a new religious movement (NRM).[1], [2] Founded in 1936 in Hyderabad, Sindh[3] (present day Pakistan), its adherents are commonly called BKs.[3] Religious scholar Reender Kranenborg, a research professor at the Institute for the Study of Religion, the Free University, Amsterdam writes, “The entire way of the Brahma Kumaris can be characterized as raja yoga” [4]; however he distinguishes it from the widely known raja yoga defined by Patanjali in that it is not based on the classical astanga, eight-limbed yoga.[5] BK Raj Yoga bears some similarity in aim to other yogic practices, as it can also be considered ”the ladder to spiritual liberation, a practical method of union with God.”[1]
Origins
The movement was founded in 1936, in the region of Sindh which is now in the country of Pakistan, by a retired diamond merchant named Lekhraj Khubchand Kirpalani.[3] At that time, Lekhraj chose to withdraw from worldly life and devote his time to his spiritual practice as a devout Hindu.[1] That experience and the many that were to follow that day were understood to be that God had descended into the body of Lekhraj to impart a “message(s) for humanity regarding the nature of the present age.”[17]
However, the experiences that Lekhraj had and continued to have were not received very well universally in those early days as there was much controversy within the Sindh community over the establishment of Om Mandali, the spiritual school that Lekhraj founded.[17] Lekhraj told the followers that Shiva had renamed Lekhraj who was now called Prajapita Brahma, the Father of Humanity.[17]
A number of cultural factors may be seen to have led to such societal reaction. The primary factor that seems instrumental to the opposition was that the spiritual study and lifestyle drew attention away from family life as chastity was a primary discipline of the practice. Another significant factor for the persecution of the proto-Brahma Kumaris was the significance placed on female religiosity which was a direct challenge to the male-led social order and particularly the role of women within the family and community at that time.[17]
The spiritual school moved from Hyderabad to Karachi (now part of Pakistan) for fourteen years which was, at that time, part of colonial India. The founding group of approximately 300 individuals lived as a self-sufficient community spending much of their time in spiritual study and meditation in an effort to attain the “true self”[4] which is akin to the previously mentioned capacity for total non-violence in thought and deed.[10]
The group moved to the present day location of Madhuban in Mt. Abu, following the partition of India in 1949.[18]
From the time of establishment, through the time of opposition, Brahma Baba encouraged women in particular to “develop their spiritual lives and take leadership roles.”[19] Though the Brahma Kumaris membership in the early years and even now is primarily composed and administered by women, in the Western environment, while they clearly do promote female leadership, they have frequently given leadership roles to men. There appears to have been much variation in gender ratios over time and space across the history of the BKs which seem to be due to the differing patterns of gender relations in the societies of the countries in which the organization operates.[20]
Versions of the organization’s history can be found on the BKWSU websites [9][10].
BKWSU Philosophy
BKWSU philosophy originated from the experiences of the founder, Lekh Raj Kripilani, a devout Hindu diamond merchant who had profound religious experiences. “He felt himself to be an instrument of the Supreme Soul who had passed on the knowledge to him or had him experience it, intending that Lekh Raj pass it on to others. Or, as it was stated, he experienced the love of God who gave him the highest spiritual knowledge.” This experience was different than that with which he was acquainted from his Bhakti.”[6] Lekh Raj reportedly had such encounters for some time.
In the philosophy of the BKWSU, the body is considered to be a “garment” for the soul.[7] Souls are understood to have three components: intellect, conscious mind, and unconscious mind. The intellect receives and digests wisdom or Truth; reasons and discerns; and exhibits will and understanding. Depending on the intellect’s strength, it guides the thoughts that the conscious mind creates. The conscious mind produces thoughts and ideas; emotions, feelings and experiences and can be influenced by either the subconscious mind or by the guidance of the intellect. The unconscious mind contains impressions (sanskaras) that form personality as a consequence of action (karma).
BK ideas about God are a marked departure from Hindu concepts. God is an eternal and conscient being of light, the ‘All-Highest Soul’, ever-pure and good. Although having all knowledge and in that sense being omniscient, he is not omnipresent. Not only is God eternal—an eternal power or energy—but matter and human souls are also eternal; neither are they created by God nor do they emerge from God.
Kranenborg describes the essence of BK cosmology: “In the beginning all souls lived together, with the All-Highest Soul in a non-material world, but because of the law of karma the souls left this world for the material world and entered into human bodies. All souls play their own roles in the material world and therefore assume a body in order to give expression to their original positive qualities… When the soul enters into matter, in the world of action, the game of action and reaction between intellect, mind and subconscious mind begins…. The purpose of this life and future lives are determined by this whole process.” Rebirth is exclusively in human bodies. To be liberated from the game, the human being must learn to burn away negative karma and produce positive karma by attuning himself to the All-Highest Soul. “In other words, only through knowledge of God and the connection with God is a human being liberated.”[6]
Brahma Kumaris teachings accord with classical Hinduism with respect to four world ages: the golden age (sat yuga), the silver age (treta yuga), the copper age (dwapar yuga) and the iron age (kali yuga). Striking deviations from Hinduism are the inclusion of a fifth ‘diamond age’ or confluence age (sangam yuga) and the belief that the whole cycle lasts only 5000 years.
The BKWSU philosophy is considered millenarian, similar to a number of other faith traditions including Christian, Mormon, Rasta, Shakers, Nostradamus, et al., in that there is belief in a coming major transformation of society after which all things will be changed in a positive direction. References in BK teachings on this matter often refer to this world transformation culminating in the Hindu epic of the Mahabharata War. [8]
Would like to hear the input from other editos about this version. What do you like?, what you don't like? why?
Best Wishes, Avyakt7 14:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Avyakt7
This post is in response to the RFC posted today. [23] I have never heard of this group before and have not read the discussion archives, so I am reading this purely as an outside, neutral party.
As an outside reader, the article seems very anti-Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University -- first because of word choices and second because of topic selection. For example, "spirit possession" has a very negative connotation in the West. Does this group say they do spirit possession, or is this someone looking at their literature and then deciding to call it that? If it's the latter it's a clear violation of WP:OR and must be deleted. Another example, in the "Early History" section, many accusations are listed. If these accusations were not proven in a court of law or some other neutral venue, then they cannot be included in the article, because an accusation can be made without proof.
Regarding the Eugene Romain post that prompted the RFC, it is a self-published website (where people can say the earth is flat and the ocean is two feet deep and all other sorts of nonsense), so it should be removed immediately.
If the editors truly wish to have a balanced, neutral article, one suggestion is to reduce this article to a stub of simple facts, and then work from there. Right now there is so much POV material that it seems an overwhelming task to accomplish.
Good luck. Renee -- Renee 15:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
If the word spirit possession is used in reliable sources then it should stay, I think. NPOV (which should not be confused with neutrality) means following what reputable sources have stated. Not significantly changing their wording. Andries 19:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
If an accusation is mentioned in reputable sources and a notable controversy then it can stay. From what I have read (Nagel in German who has a pro BK bias), at least the activities of the anti-BK group are notable and sourced in reputable sources. Andries 19:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The quote is entirely in context and key to the bkwsu
Thank you for confirming that you have no intention of actually buying any books to do the work, to check the reference as other have done. But at least, Riveros, you ought to go and read some more murlis (channelled messages of the Bk god) so that you can understand what it is you are involve in as a Brahma Kumari follower.
Now , I hope others can see the problem we have faced. If other editors will not even check the references , how can we converse with them? Green108 22:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
What has Kranenborg written of any depth? His is not even a proper paper, its just a conference piece that repeats BKWSU PR. It uses all the fluffy language beloved of BK publicity material, e.g. "He had the feeling that he had come into contact with the Supreme". Its a little bit different from the way they tell it to their students, see below Green108 09:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
"A preliminary version of a paper presented at CESNUR 1999" Green108 09:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to address this issue of mediumship and possession from, in the first place, primary sources in order that those that are not BK followers can appreciate what is being referenced here and why. I am going to use on a Word processor on this one as it is important.
Firstly, can I remind contributors that Simon and Riveros are both dedicated BK followers and, at least Simon, a member of the BKWSU organization core Internet PR Team. I tend to see them as a single voice of the BKWSU; Simon and his shadow. The BKWSU invests considerable energy and resources keeping the the more freaky part of its operation.
Secondly, BK Raja Yoga and classical Raja Yoga have nothing in common. The focus of attention in BK Raja Yoga is a channelled entity, a spirit being, that “possessed” Lekhraj Kripalani in the 1930. The BKs claim this spirit entity is, of course, the God of all religions. I emphasise this so that individual realise that we are not talking about some numinous influence or general inspiration, which is how the BKs often sell it to non-BKs.
Channelling or possession is referred to in a variety of different cases in the BKWSU;
I guess to be exact, we would have to qualify the difference between channelling, possession, overshadowing and mediumship; and examine the relationship between the channel or medium and the possessing spirit entity. But that is beyond the scope of this article. What is unquestionable is whether there is the practise of possession, mediumship and channelling going on.
I have to laugh when Riveros says, “used as an instrument”. “Instrument” is a BK word that means the victim of possession or channelling medium in plain English. This is very typical of the BKWSU to attempt to use a word that they are very clear about the meaning but which is hidden to outsiders. “used as an instrument” means either possessed, channelling or acting as a medium.
He goes on to say that “the practise taught by BKWSU) does not involve spirit possession”. This is complete untrue. He may be ignorant of the facts of his own religions but more likely, he, like they “corporate” want to hide all this stuff from newcomers until they are hooked in a relationship with their god spirit.
Beyond the introductory possession and channelling mentioned above, the channelled messages that the possessing spirit speaks through the mediums (called Murlis), clearly confirmed by the largely spoken tradition, identify two more types of psychic influences;
So part and parcel with the core meditation on the primary possessing spirit they call Shiva is the preparation of the BK follower to be used as a channel of the mind and energy of these other paranormal influences.
Both the original and paraphrase quotations are correct. High social status and importance does go to those sisters that are channels and trance mediums for the male spirits. Without them there would be no Raja Yoga. It might be hard to visualise for non-BKs, but what we are talking about is 1,000s of people sitting down believing that God has entered into a little old Indian lady in Mount Abu, speaking to them personally and meeting them eye to eye. In the old days, it used to be possible to have conversations with him.
The final context we have to put this is in the BKWSU determination to hide all this from non-BKs and how ill it fits with their corporate and political ambitions.
Forget all the waffle, this is what the removal is all about. The BKWSU does not want outsiders to know that they are being initiated into an relationship with a ghost that possesses an old Indian lady. The BKWSU wants outsiders to think that they are meeting a universal God or some vague, inspirational “energy” or “source”. This is the language they prefer to use.
I argue against this. I think we have a responsibility to the greater community, through the Wikipedia, to provide factual truths; not some organization's PR or whitewash.
Without the "Ghost", there would be and could be no BK Raja Yoga. If the ghost, to quote the Indian presidential stories, turns out to the God of all religions as the BKs believe, then we are fine. We have done a good job advertising his coming. But you non-BKs must understand that the BKs believe this is god that has possessed Lekhraj Kripalani and has “come to destroy all other religions”. That is an exact quote.
The BKWSU followers wants to re-write this topic into some vague, flattering New Agey advertisement Green108
There is nothing uncivil about that summary. Is that really the best response you can come up with? Another personal attack and more projection? More PR spin? That is just the cool, detached truth in non-BK language. To answer Simon above, I do not know of any anti-BK websites … (oh, may be one; The Owelsong website).
Let’s look at the BKWSU own stories of "the possession of Lekhraj Kripalani" (although personally I do not believe it is actually true as written) and how he became a medium and channel to this other “spirit entity”.
On one occasion, the BKWSU claims his eyes shone red, the room was filled with red light around him and a booming voice spook out of him. (I doubt that it said “Shivohum, Shivohum” because there was no mention of Shiva until after 1950 at least).
On another occasion, the BKWSU claims he was falling to pieces and becoming like a child drawing Swastikas and Circles on the wall of a family house, they had to send him away because, presumably, they thought he was cracking up. It is reported that he thought he was going mad. Then it is said he had psychic visions. And during the early period, so were all the kids going into trance, having psychic experiences and dancing
Now, frankly, that is close to Linda Blair territory. I appreciate that. after all its financial investment, time and energy spent in PR, the BKWSU is uncomfortable at having its inner truths made public, but what else is the mechanism at play here?
To BKs, it is no problem. The possessing spirit is God. It is not about the mechanics, it is about the quality of this spirit entity which you/they think is Supreme. Fine. The rest of the world might think otherwise, especially if he is set on destroying their religions and way of life.
I think what underpins it as “possession” is the involuntary nature of it. Kripalani did not want it, did not ask for it, did not prepare and exercise himself to become a medium; but medium is what he was called in the organisation for most of its existence and channelling is what Gulzar does. Was her initiation as medium voluntary or did Shiva and the deceased Kripalani just possess her?
For non-BKs all the other references are accurate and taken from the organisation’s own channelled messages (almost and mostly verbatim) and publicity material which I can reference and are included in the article itself Green108 09:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Per the discussions above, I'd like to take a crack at streamlining this article where issues are contested (just give a neutral statement and retain the cites) as well as neutralize the language a bit. Feedback welcome. -- Renee 14:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
In the interests of making this a "nice" article to be involved with I am proposing we archive the talk with the exception of the above "Edits?" post. Although a lot of the threads are live they have become huge and are full of civility and other issues.
We can restart any important threads as required. Let me know if you have any views otherwise I will perform the operation tomorrow.
Regards Bksimonb 15:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There haven't been any posts since early June so I thought now would be a good time to archive old discussions. Hope that's OK with everyone. Regards Bksimonb 06:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I have uploaded a marked up version of the article to my userspace, here. I have identified what I am certain are multiple issues with the article as it stands. I would say the majority of the issues are quite clear-cut with maybe a few that need more discussion. I have tagged the main article with the issues I have identified and will start cleaning up the most obvious problems after about two days wait.
Why I created a separate page in userspace? Originally, it was to brief an advocate on what issues I saw in the article, however the advocate has had to take a long Wikibreak and the AMA, it seems, is no more. Also, plastering loads of stuff on the discussion page trying to describe exactly where it is in the article etc is messy and floods the discussion page. I thought a marked up version of the article was a much better way to communicate the reasoning.
I would appreciate discussion to take place here, not on the userspace document, to keep things clear and manageable.
Thanks & regards Bksimonb 08:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
i looked as far as the first red bit where it talks about the date of birth of lekhraj...........the correct date is referenced in the Om Radhe book.....she is your "Mama" Simon and writing in the late 1930s when lekhraj was still live ,I think she knows better
also if you look in jagdish chander writings in the 70s , he fudges the issue talking about approximate "55 to 60 years of age" for the incarnation of shivbaba . its on page 154 kripalani was aged 54 in 1938
the age of kripalani was given on documents prepared for legal proceedings.........
you see the problems lies in that in the murlis , it says shiva incarnates when the chariot is 60 years old but om radhe and the om mandli folk prove he was younger
kripalani is also how it is spelt then too , but it is not big deal the two ways are interchangeable......its just a problem with the english translation of it
so , yes, we know the BKWSU edits and re-writes the murli and we know that they re-write their history
the problem we have here is that you younger Bks really dont know your own organisations history and are believing in the PR version.....that ignorance should not prejudice the article , you should go back to your seniors and demand the truth you cant expect to drive home the whitewashed version of bk history Green108 15:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
i understand perfectly well what the Bkwsu are trying to use it for simon
with regards kripalani's age , i gave you a page number all you got to look at it . its not "original research" to copy a fact from a book
simon , just one honest question to you.........if you are a member of the Bkwsus core IT PR team , and tucked up nicely with sister jayanti and dadi janki in GCH...........why cant you access these books and documents from within the Bkwsu? what is their response to such a request? there must be others.its a simple question that really deserves a proper answer.........
btw , we all read how dadi janki was not the most stable mind in the world after 30 years of using it for pr.........in the om radhe book she is not even listed amongst the members in 1938 , still they say she was on the managing committee
why cant we depend on the Bkwsu for a single accurate history? Green108 20:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
i asked an very important, honest question and you ignored it simon
one of the problems we have with you young Bks is that you come along and want to change the article to suit your current PR and you have not even read many of the reference........in short , you dont actually know the real history.......you only know the PR version
have you or can you access these original books and documents from within the Bkwsu? what is sister jayanti's and dadi janki's response to such a request?
it is impossible to enter into a discussion with you if you insist on ignoring them
i made a historical point. the article reflects the reality of the Bkwsu which is they have faked and re-written their history , many younger Bks dont know the truth of it........and consequently reporting of it is mixed.
look, you are a key member of the BKWSU Core Internet PR Team ,aren't you? and riveros some fanatical Bk follower that goes about posting about "the bombs being ready and they are going to be used" on public forums and faking ids to mess with this article..................this isnt PR for western Bks , we are trying to document the BKWSU in the whole
in that analysis of the article you try to discredit the original posters.......in 1949 there was no mention of Shiva, just God Brahma Green108 11:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
i disagree
i am trying to establish trust by giving the Bkwsu internet PR team a chance to be open and honest , to actually engage in discussion rather pull the rug from under other contributors feet
i am asking you a question , can you access these documents from within the Bkwsu and what is the response of the seniors to them because to me you appear to be ignoring them as they dont fit in your organisations aim to re-write this topic along the lines of current pr
that poster , dated 1949 ,clearly states Destruction within one year and as a matter or interest ,why is there no mention of shivbaba only Prajapati God Brahma?
Green108 03:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
To all: I removed the "or monastic" because the source was one sentence combined with IKSON:"The same appears to be the case with inner members of Brahma Kumaris which, like ISKCON, is a monastic or semi-monastic religious order" [2]. The citation that remains is academic, in goes into the area in detail on the Brahma Kumaris and doesn't compare/contrast nor add "appears" which is conjecture with no examples. I have ordered all his books and will look to see if he can prove his conjecture as posted on the website cited. As to the editor that claims he is not celibate and goes on to MT ABU, I guess he tells tall tales to get in or is celibate for six months prior, then falls off his stage. There are those that want to practice according to their beliefs in all religions, but when adjusting the beliefs to suit their life style, I do believe they are called "heretics". I have yet to meet a practicing BK yogi, that is not celibate and is off to the discos on the weekends. Please provide information on how someone can be a semi-yogi! PEACE TalkAbout 18:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Bksimonb, I think I fixed it, as it reads now, it is very clear that the primary function of the medium is to channel the murlis and information. So, no worries about thishttp://www.fromthebalcony.com/images/2005/exorcism_of_emily_rose_the/emilyrose03.jpg. I also included a section from another book which refers to communication between the living and the dead, but I think this one citation will suffice and no need to over do it.
Bksimonb Qoute: "It teaches a form of meditation[1] called Raja Yoga (not the classical Raja Yoga as described by Patanjali[4]) and a study of messages brought via a medium."
Did I miss the discussion on the tagging of the article by the BKs? Or was it just a unilateral action again?
I also disagree with Simon. Tagging the article with a huge tag like that is just another ploy on behalf of the BKs to try and devalue and discredit the article as it is.
There was no consensus sought about this. Simon, why did not you just make a template up that says, “The BKWSU doesn’t like this. Its does not fit in with our PR and marketing and it exposes facts we don’t like to tell non-BKs.”?
The problem is, as a leading member of the BKWSU’s “Internet PR Core Team on behalf of the RCOs”, as it is called, your vision is deeply biased. Most people think the article is fine. It is very well researched and referenced.
BTW, just to see how fair and even handed you are, do you think we can we mention the stuff about the Dadi Janki not being the “most stable mind in the World” - as was widely claimed - as one of the controversies? I would say that was a fairly serious abd continous deceit on behalf of the old girl and her followers.
Green108 15:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
i just fixed a small typo made by a new user , the line is not exactly accurate according to gyan.......you know the Bk stuff about nuclear war , natural disasters , the continents sinking and only india being left for krishna to reincarnate in
i am not fussed by it the way it is just if you want accuracy then you want accuracy Green108 20:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
User:Riveros11 is a BK follower and member of their IT team
since he was shown in the dispute mentioned at the top of the page to have multiple sockpuppet accounts to try and gain control of the article and have other contributors banned his integrity is in doubt
your collective actions are causing an identical repeat of the previous case
please discuss proposed changes before you make them Green108 14:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
There has been widespread reporting in the media of this. The Indian president candidate Pratibha Patil has been to the Brahma Kumari headquarters to talk to their "ghost". The ghost apparently backed her campaign.
Should this not be reported here as a media controversy? If others agree, I will present the most reliable references.
I must say. Although I am not a member. I knew a family that lost a son to this group. They encouraged him to give up his studies. He gave them thousands of pounds. When he was in it, you could not talk him. He was very much like these other followers. I think they encourage fanaticism within their followers.
Faithinhumanity 17:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
yes , i agree Green108 19:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
very interesting.....look at that! World_Renewal_Trust_Deed
ramesh shah started the world renewal trust in 16th january 1969 and lekhraj kripalani / kirpalani died the day after he was shown it from a heart break..........and to think that the BKs actually celebrate his death on january the 18th.
ok ,we have to have this in the article.........is it agreed as a reliable date?
this is perfectly sound evidence and imagine , the BKs have said all along they were run by women and here is proof that a man set up the trust and was a trustee from day one Green108 19:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. I started adding some citations tags where citations are needed in the article. If those citations are not provided in a reasonable amount of time, ( A week sounds good to me...according to Jossi's previous suggestion) the contents under those citations will be deleted... so, that is 7/24/07... Best, avyakt7 20:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I've done a little cleanup because the article was looking really ugly with all those unnecessary templates. I've removed unsourced statements (except a few, which are tagged with {{ fact}} or {{ page number}} and can be removed after some time if no source is provided). I've also trimmed down the "Controversies" section -- half the stuff mentioned in the section involved no controversy. Also, I've removed some original research, which was referenced, but the references didn't support the statements made.
In future, instead of tagging the article with so many tags, please consider using tags for relevant sections and statements. utcursch | talk 16:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Utcursch could you offer some of the specific quotation referred to e.g. Abbott, Elizabeth Hardy, Hardayal (1984) Green108 11:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
a contributor has introduced the theory of om mandli being "a committee"
this is of course entirely wrong..........om mandli was "the gathering of souls" all 500 of them at its height , the management committee was chosen from amongst the om mandli members , its also difficult to see how this was the "nucleus" of the Bkwsu........it was the precusor , incidentally where is the evidence that Lekhraj handed over his wealth?
having been accused myself of original research to make such constructions goes too far
i also notice the introduction of very specific cultic language........for example , murli in the top paragraph and rasa lila in the early history Kripalani being referred to as "Dada" , so i suppose we are dealing with more BKWSU intervention here........
rasa lila is the real world is a folk dance , rasa lila to the Bks means that Lekhraj kripalani was krishna and the Bk followers were the gopis surrounding him.........all very unencyclopediac ,a sort of double language that only Bks might get
it is riduculous to suggest that "dancing" was a key component of Om Mandli......likewise "preached" Bhagavad Gita
so , no, i am afraid not.......we will have to revert some of that to neutral "lokik" language Green108 11:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
utcursch if you dont know the subject , and your chosen references contradict other references you should really join the discussion of major changes such as you have made
one of the big problems with the Bkwsu is that they have re-written their history considerably and many of the academics have referred only in passing to a PR version of their history
we see this particularly in the Bkwsu's own publications such as their biographies 'adi dev' for Lekhraj Kripalani and 'an unique experience' for vishwa ratan where they have re-written a fictionalised version of event which is contradicted by the hard evidence
now, beyond walliss's reference of their re-writing the channelled messages , i am avoiding emphasising this on the topic............but in our choice of academic references we need to use these as touch stones for reality............otherwise the topic will only be accused of being a pr job or an advertisement
looking at vishwa ratan's book , he has been completely dishonest about the creation of the poster and , broadly, the Bkwsu has written much of their early history out of the picture
i should mention to you that there is a vociferous dispute between the Bkwsu and a splinter group called the PBK AIVV that has resulted even in violence and mulitple banishment on behalf of the Bkwsu.........BK simon refers to this in passing (Mr Dixit)
i would like it noted have i nothing to do with this splinter group i have never met their leader not studied with them and do not even know the full reasons for the depth of emotions involved Green108 14:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
as i pointed out to utcursch , Dada is not his name and so i am reverting.........look i appreciate that the Bks are going to revert anything i do as a matter of principle but to call someone dada lekhraj in indian is a bit like call some uncle in english
eg as the article on josef stalin is in his known name , rather than "Uncle Joe" its safe to say we should use real names rather than dadas, didiji and the likes which are subjective judgements which might be mistake by non-indians for being names Green108 14:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
lets get a grip.......the man's name was Lekhraj Kripalani , no talkabout dont confuse the issue even more that is worse as it is not even accurate from a Bk point of view.it is never used in that way
dada is an indian term ,the closest example we have would be "uncle"............it is not a name ,it is not a character or assumed personality like david bowie . as yet he does not have the status of Gandhi ,or even gates or bowie...........bill is a name , dada is a term of endearment.........so, the gandhi topic is not listen as bapuji , is it?
to his own community (non-BKs), he was known as "Bhai Lekhraj" . so a handful of closely related families called the man "uncle lekhraj" ( Dada Lekhrajbefore they started to think he was brahma incarnate)..............are you going to base a wikipedia article on that?
most readers are not indian , they will think Dada is his name......lets not confuse or mislead them Green108 19:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
the man's is Lekhraj Kripalani or Kirpalani if you wish , its time to grow up and accept that.
just because you two Bks think he is your baba, the wikipedia is no place for such talk . to say Dada Lekhraj is like calling for eg the president's father "Daddy Bush" . if we look eg at Papa Doc ,you see the topic is in his own real name
end of story........facts not faith Green108 09:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
(outdented) They did not have second names back then , so what about Papa Doc example? In the Bowie article, they use a mix for literary purposes but generally the second name bowie = kripalani/kirpalani
What on earth is the problem in calling the man by his name transliterated to either Kripalani or Kirpalani? really???
Dada is not a name , its means father. its like calling some politician "Daddy George" 20 times in his article
let's face it , you two are his followers and so for you it is an act of faith...He is your "Creator" and you think he is the father of humanity all the sites on the internet are either by his devotees or copying them
the rest of the world does not agree
additionally , you are trying to work up a case to remove me and you think by making up admin complaints , pushing me to 3RRs (actually dada is the new edit) and so on you might do so
I reverted the article back to the version which includes the properly laid out references and corrected punctuation and downplayed the dadas once is enough
I don't see any reason to removing proper references , a lot of work went into them...a little more is needed . both of you BKWSU followers are not still not being honest in your summaries Green108 12:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
tell me.......what is wrong with his real name? he was a great asset to the Kripalani clan and Sindis in general.
lekhraj kripalani was never as famous or influential as all the people mentioned above in their lifetimes , and is still not......the sai baba page is also a warzone between cult followers and non-followers
lekhrak kirpalani may be your Dada-Daddy but he had no wish to be sanctified or remembered........indeed ,the murlis say you should not even keep a picture of him and remembering him was bad
as regards the date of birth its verifiable...........first , we have om radhe, then we have the Chief Justice of India who was his legal counsel, in the mid-70s Bkwsu publicist jagdish chander confirmed it and so i find those quite convincing in a way that recent Bkwsu cover ups or publicity materials are not
i am sorry , i am not the sort to keep running to admins and expect them to my work for me Green108 00:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to ask User:Utcursch for comments regarding the first few sentences of the article, particularly with regards to the use of the words "spirit possession". This can sound rather shocking and as it stands it reads as if it is part of the Raj Yoga meditation training. This is not the case. The reference for this description is from "New Religious Movements: challenge and response" and the relevent passage is quoted below.
The Brahma Kumaris present a similar pattern of a founder who favoured and promoted women, and has been run mainly by women since his death. In some respects the role reversal is more complete than in the Osho movement, since women are teachers as well as administrators, and there is a very clear doctrine on gender equality. They are concerned with women's issues and spiritual leadership. However, as with sannyasins, Brahma Kumaris women become core members by being fully `surrendered'; and their prominence derives from their mediumistic cababilities, channelling murlis (sermons) from their dead founder. As a result, `their power is veiled through the device of possession. Women, even when they; possess power, cannot be seen to wield it. Hence, the importance of spirit possession where women are the instruments or mouthpieces of a male spirit."
I would say that a theory is being presented and some of the statements made do not describe what actually happens, or at least present it in a misleading way. If this reference is used I propose it is used with attribution later in the article since I don't think that the first paragraph should aim to present such an odd view. To summarize, this is how things actually do work with regards to mediumship,
Please comment on how you see the first paragraph should go based on your experience on Wikipedia the references you have kindly taken the time to study.
Thanks & regards Bksimonb 15:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
no, the object of the Raj Yoga meditation is complete surrender mentally and physically to the possessing spirit that they claim entered into lekhraj kripalani and still enters into gulzar up in abu road
it has nothing to do with who or what other religions think is god....to Bks , god is that "ghost" that spoke to the Indian presidency candidate , he only speaks to them and at this time
from a Bk point of view , what simon is saying here is complete nonsense........this is not what the god of the Bkwsu teaches to its followers ,i would go as far it is dishonest and deliberately deceptive and can quote the murlis to prove it
Bks dont believe that god came to speak to anyone at any other time than now and only they get the message ,
its typically vague talk intended to deceive the real truth of what the Bkwsu teaches and believes , this is the problem we have to deal with........... Green108 19:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
and if we are going to consider the whole issue of channelling and mediumship , we have to put it into not just a historical context of the other mediums at the start of the history........those after kripalani's death..........but also consider "The Inspiration Party" which Bks believe /are taught are dead senior Bks that are going about in a ghost like form doing service through Bks to this day
i do not know if it is referenced by academics...........it might be something the Bks are hush-hush about............but it is in the channelled messages . Bks believe themselves ,and are prepared, to be used by the disincarnate spirits of deceased members........so they say
so ,yes, mediumship and channelling are key difference between their and the classic ancient raja yoga Green108 18:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
i spent some time on minor housekeeping........would those habitual reverters please pay heed to this
i put a space before references and fullstops after trying to tidy the article up , please try and keep it uniform and lets try and get the page listed on the front of the wikipedia one day! Green108 21:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
For the record: [10] As I said, green108, it is a cycle after all. Enjoy your day off... Best, avyakt7 13:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems that someone is rather working overtime...Another piece for the akashic records of Wikipedia. Note the immediacy of changes and complete reversal of other edition. I wonder who could that be?
inetnum: 212.126.145.0 - 212.126.147.255 netname: FREEUK-NETS-1 descr: FreeUK modem pool country: GB
avyakt7 15:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
We need more Om Shanti, Brothers and Sisters. BKs do not defame the Father in this way. Please stop making conflict in this way.
BK Angel
the problem with the recent bibliography ,is that all the academics have depended on facts, figures and a version of the history as given by the Brahma Kumaris themselves..............primarily from the hagiography (biography idealizing its subject) of Lekhraj Kripalani called Adi Dev by one of his financially supported followers named Jagdish Chander
looking at the actual text of "Struggles and Sorrows; The Personal Testimony of a Chief Justice" by Justice Hardayal Hardy (p 37 to 39), rather than depending on google snippets ,you will read;
"Another case I did involved Dada Lekhraj Kripalani of Hyderabad who owned a jewellery shop in Calcutta. He sold his shop and returned to Hyderabad with approximately Rs 10 lakhs as his assets. He bought a house and settled there. Dada Lekhraj was about 54 years old"
This was in 1938. As Justice Hardy was not only Lekhraj Kripalani's counsel but went on to be the Chief Justice of India, I think we can consider his work to be reliable and authoritative
the big issue about this is that the Bks have re-written their history and the channelled messages they claim are the words of god..........in the murlis , the channelled entity says he enters the body of his chariot when the chariot is 60 years old.........time and time again , we find that Kripalani was only in his mid 50s......as chander in the 1970s also noted (approximately 55)
it is this that the Pbk splinter group has jumped on as proof that kripalani was not the original medium of god ,and because of the aggressive supression of the Pbks......all sort of crazy denial has set in about this, the age has been removed from the murlis just like the stuff about "God not mounting a virgin" when the current medium of the spirit is dadi gulzar, a virgin
Ok.........that is the background for those that do not know the history ,the re-writing and advance party stuff is all referenced in walliss work Green108 18:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Cranks overestimate their own knowledge and ability, and underestimate that of acknowledged experts.
- Cranks insist that their alleged discoveries are urgently important.
- Cranks rarely if ever acknowledge any error, no matter how trivial.
- Cranks love to talk about their own beliefs, often in inappropriate social situations, but they tend to be bad listeners, and often appear to be uninterested in anyone else's experience or opinions.
- In addition, many cranks
- seriously misunderstand the mainstream opinion to which they believe that they are objecting,
- ....
- claim that their ideas are being suppressed by secret intelligence organizations, mainstream science, powerful business interests, or other groups which, they allege, are terrified by the possibility of their allegedly revolutionary insights becoming widely known,
its funny you say that a friend and supporter of Bk hansa patel gave evidence of how he had removed reports of hansa's claims that raja yoga cures cancer off the internet............and in the letters he said that the Pentagaon and Department of Defence
the link is here BK Hansa Raval; cancer cure claims & tax free future
he said that Bk hansa's legal counsel, the Department of Defense and the Pentagon are taking legal actions towards the authors of the fictitious article and any website posting the article!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the funny this is ,the author wrote it in praise of the Bkwsu and the individual doing the stirring is a Bk supporter (ex-us military like hansa patel).........so you are right , this stuff attracts a lot of nuts and we have to be careful of our references . any way , back to the article Green108 13:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
i did a pretty major bit of maintenance work on the references putting them into shap as User:Utcursch did..............they are about 95% complete but have a few quotes and ISBN numbers and proper dates to go back in ,so i am working on it just now
i have a couple of question , if the same reference is used but a different quote..........technically how do you do that?
what is the proper way to lay out the bibliography at the end?
i have a general observation to make ,because of the persistent trolling of the BKWSU Internet PR Team , I think the article has become over referenced................they have always attacked each and every word demanding citations and have pretty much always been given them
its impossible to seriously edit the piece if individuals have not got or read or refuse to read the actual quoted works............there must be a limit to how far others are expect to go to appease interested parties that are not informed............surely, beyond a certain point such behaviour has to be seen for what it is!!!!!!!!!!! Green108 13:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not 244, he got banned ......but you can think what you like, but that is not relevant here.....avaykt 7 I don't come on here to hear your ideas and churnings on gyan, love and peace Green108 13:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
244, In the past you have performed the same behavior. As you know, you are not allowed to erase any admin messages in your talk page. Are you afraid of showing your 24 hrs block to the world? As always, you do not follow the rules of the game. Your old sanskars keep popping out, 244. So, in this cycle, what comes next, 244? Are you spinning the cycle of wikipedia? I believe arbitration comes next... just like before? Best, avyakt7 16:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry Simon to say the same about you, I know who you are and you've become something quite different. It is sad. Avyakt 7, when you leave gyan which I suspect won't be in the too distant future, you will look back on all this and the way you feel now in a different light. All the best. Green108 17:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Green108, I've reverted your edits because they were undoing valid edits originally made by Utcursch and Andries. Your changes were quite extensive and may have contained some valid changes but I'm not going to sift through them as long as I can see that there are also tendentious edits that undo the valid input of other, more experienced, editors who are not emotionally involved with the subject matter, as your posts and edits indicate that you are.
It is a pity you feel there is no point in dialogue with BK editors. However, judging by the way you force your edits over Utcursch and Andries it seems to me that you are not interested in dialogue with any editor. Period.
Regards Bksimonb 12:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
this is incorrect.........i included andries correction (the only problem was a missing bracket which i just fixed), have corresponded with Utcursch and ,and having actually read the books in question provided full citations from books for where he has relied on partial google extracts..........as you well know the issue of the ras lila has no real significance at all unless if we want to discuss whether it was trance dancing as the girls had visions of krishna and the golden age
otherwise be specific , all i can see is that you are riveros are trying to set me up for another 3rr with this "Dada versus real name" business and date of birth which is not reported correctly.
you have worked your way through just about every complaint in the book , why not just be honest about what you are trying to achieve Green108 13:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
i am sorry..........i really wanted to avoid continuing the conflict but i have to flag up the misleading use of the edit summaries by the Bk team simon and riveros . can this please stop ?
the issue is whether we use "Daddy" Lekhraj or call the man by his name Lekhraj Kripalani ,i say his formal name is more correct and inline with other individuals on the wikipedia.........he is not a mahatma gandhi yet and it is not the place of the wikipedia to deify him
i have replace the version with the resolved references.........a lot of work went into fixing them
i see simon has also put in another admin complaint trying to have me ban ,it seems to be that he and riveros are working together to try and trip others up with 3rrs and the rest , as a rule i wont become involved in tit for tat complaining but as long as others are aware of this ,i stand by my edits Green108 13:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I am going to answer this honestly and openly. No doubt you will try and use this against me. Hopefully anyone else ,like the admins , whose time and energy you are willing to co-opt into doing what the BKWSU calls "service" and i call PR will read this and take it into consideration.
You have to understand Simon , the real problem for both you two BKs, the others that made their mark and the seniors Bks that stand behind and encourage you is because of the dissonance between the truth and what you have been led to believe to strengthen your faith or encouraged to use as propaganda in "service". This when perhaps for the first time in the west , the inner workings and environment of the Bkwsu are being exposed and openly discussed in public through websites like http://www.brahmakumaris.info.
Forget the all the jostling......if you really believe in the knowledge , Instead of putting all your energy as a team into getting me or any other ex-BK , ex-centrewasi or whatever that comes along banned ,blocked , reverted.......why not put a fraction of it into actually resolving the actual facts of the history rather than trying to jig the article based on? (e.g. why did mama and jagdish write 54/55?)
suppression is generally only counter productive.......if it does not pop up here , it will pop up somewhere else Green108 10:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
did you download the Om Radhe book from the http://www.brahmakumaris.info? what else do they have hiden away that they thought would never see the light of day again?
how and when did they actually introduce the so-called Shiva spirit........it was sometime after 1949 , there is no mention of him beforehand . dont you find that interesting and interesting why they covered it all up?
what is really going on for you is that you are starting to look at what you have been told by the senior sisters, what they are doing to gyan and measure it up against the truth , you are starting to realise the difference between facts and PR........well done, you are actually starting to wake up Green108 03:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
As a neutral observer, both sides need to stop reverting and compromise. One observation that I have is that WP:COMMONNAMES applies to the naming of articles. Those articles should then be linked to without piping or redirects. Whichever side relying on pipes or redirects is the one which is wrong. Please adjust the article accordingly. IPSOS ( talk) 00:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes please. At least leave the sorted out reference tags and punctuation! I did not upload the pdf, which policy is that against? Thanks Green108 07:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
'Is this justice?' is written in his follower's name..........his future wife and emperess of the world.........
just out of interest if the Bkwsu has its own copy , why does it keep perpetrating myths such as the 1936 and 60 years of age in all its publicity and pr materials and misleading academics?
it is clearly stated ........1938..........age 54 his laywer and chief justice............age 54 jagdish chander in the 1970s..............age 55
why do all your websites still say Shiva descended in 1936 saying Shivohum when he was 60, causing Dada to retire when Radhe records he retired in 1932, there is no mention of shiva amongst them until at least after 1950 and the move to madhuban?
the only place it changes is in the murlis where shiva says........aged 60
does that not mean the history has been re-written or even falsified at some point?
i think where your point fails is that the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is not a religion, it is a University , or at least that is what Bks always say , its seems to most people that the Bkwsu is trying to mythologise and then sanctify him through its publicity and the wikipedia
in almost most cases , indian religious figures were part of a recognised traidition in which a spiritual names would be given to them by their guru........the problem with Kripalani is that he was not and was not , he made it up for himself........the Bkwsu would also argue that the Bkwsu was not a sect of hinduism , not in any way bound or related to hindu traditions..........sow hat is your point? Green108 12:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
we have to look at the spirit of the law not just the word of the law
if you read the history of "Original Research" came about to stop crank physicist putting forward novel theories.......the emphasis in on taking known elements and producing some new conclusion
now, it is neither rocket nor crank science to read a book that says, "aged 54, dated July 1938" and report that......i think we should apply the same rigor that a proper encyclopaedia or dictionary does and where there are two conflicting elements , take the oldest and most reliable one. Not the current corporate PR
54 in 1938 was written when kripalani was alive , with his full knowledge (and probably direction) and is repeated exactly by his advocate who went on to be the Chief Justice of India.......that really is good enough .
but let's not ignore the real issue here.........by the slavish adoption of the word of many little "laws" , the Core BKWSU Internet PR Team is attempting on one hand to wind me up.......and on the other hand , by simon's own admission , get me banned for it Green108
I just had a look and found the article rather difficult to understand, so I changed some punctuation to try to make it clearer. Also used the spelling "Mandali," as it seemed the more common, though both it and Mandli were used. If I got it wrong, please correct me. Regarding your sources, I think both sides will see it as a good thing if you cut out all refs that aren't supported by truly neutral and respected sources. Cheers. Rumiton 10:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
congratulation to simon for finally becoming a 'wiki scholar' instead of a 'wiki lawyer'!
Rumiton , can i ask you an honest question.........? what do you actually know about the Bkwsu and how many of the books and references listed have you actually read properly , as in read not looked up in google?
i appreciate your attention to detail on fixing the typos but have to flag up that ON MORE THAN ONE OCASSION you actually EDITED A CITED REFERENCE rather than the article..........you cannot do that!!!!!!!!!!!! the references are what the authors wrote!!!
a few other minor things , if you are sticking around.......i never really understood why folks feel the need to fiddle on the wiki , make minor insigificant changes for no obvious good........i dont understand why you would need to put in extra 'as' like........as "poison", as "criminal assault" and "the gateway to hell.".......also folks are putting back in extra fullstops where they are not need , what's the protocol? i put the reference tag INSIDE the fullstop to which they relate NOT outside........you and simon seen to put the full stops before the references , i think this is because you dont get how the tags work and you think there has to be a fullstop instead of realising that there is already one AFTER the tag
personally , i'd also say indian english and british english rule on this topic no need to change stuff so no need to changing legal actions to lawsuits..........technically there legal actions are correct because not all or any of them became lawsuits . again this is why i ask , what do you know? Green108 00:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
i removed the book licenteous comedy by chander , it was written by a different jagdish chander......what is prakashmani's real name so i can list her? Green108 03:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
no , its little to do with the topic someone needs to start a page on it...... Bhiabund
yes , legal actions is correct English , ask an English lawyer..........it is English-English which is what i write in......there is some talk about British versus American English on the wikipedia
yes , i agree, i found the style guideline page and it says references should go out side fullstops but one only not before and after!!! if no one beats me to correcting them all at once , i will do it at some point Green108 12:42, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Having examined the historical creation and elaboration of the millenarian message of the Brahma Kumaris, l would like to address its current status in the final section of this paper. I will sketch two ongoing re-interpretations of the original message: one from within the movement and another by a radical break-away sect known as 'the Advance Party' or `the Shankar Party'.
- This new direction has, however, caused some discontentment within certain segments of the University. The most vocal of these being the self-styled `Advance Party' who, through their critique, offer a new, radicalised rendition of the original millenarian message.
- In many ways, the Advance Party may be seen as a sectarian response to the Brahma Kumaris. A central theme, reiterated throughout their website,7 is what they see as the increasingly worldly and therefore corrupt nature of the University, manifested particularly through their UN work and increasingly New Age orientation. Again, using the metaphor of the cycle they assert that the University has 'fallen' from its original (in the era of Lekhraj) purity to a state where adulteration of Godly knowledge and subtle corruption is rampant and ignorant students arc being exploited by the higher-ups ('Advance Party' website: Churning Points V). Moreover, through a close re-reading of Leckhraj's communications the University, they claim-that Cod has manifested Himself through another body in order to not only correctly interpret the original Brahma Kumaris teachings, but also to reveal to the Advance Party, amongst whom He is Currently living, the `true' nature of future events.
- This focuses particularly on Lekhraj's original eschatology, although differing at specific points. Primarily, where Lekhraj is said to have given no date for the end; although 1976 was the unofficial line, the Advance Party promote 2001.
- Similarly, while the Brahma Kumaris hold that the world will recognise Lekhraj as God incarnates shortly before the end, the Advance Party present a more radical vision. They claim that it will be God's present incarnation, an Advance Party member, that will be revealed to the world and that, as a result, the Brahma Kumaris, recognising their error, will merge with them. Finally, in contrast to the Brahma Kumaris view that at the end, all life on earth will die, the Advance Party claim that they, that is the Advance Party, will survive in order to prepare the world for the Golden Age which will begin in 2036.
"The Successful Subtle Soft-sell of Raja Yoga" is an important essay because it captures exactly one particular aspect of how the Bkwsu works that others dont
Here are the author's qualifications.......17 years in pastoral ministry, qualified teacher, Diploma in Ministry, Diploma in Religious Education, Diploma in Teaching, Diploma in Theology, a Graduate Diploma in Educational Technology, Post Graduate Diploma of Arts (Religious Studies).........i would say that is good enough
Eromain has two degrees, developed the Bkwsu teacher's programme , was a long time Bk . he documents child sex abuse at the organisations Madhuban and Delhi headquarters and the leadership's response to it , its is not an easy subject to handle...........what makes him biased? it takes real steel to handle such subjects
i am sorry but i have read some of the organisations directions on this subject and how they want to avoid all references to it............may be you were at the meeting about it at the oxford? if i had not heard that they are denying it now , i might not think that other motives were at play here . its fine and should stay Green108 21:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
i suggest that you refrain from editing other people's posts on this discussion page
as you are a member of the BKWSU Internet PR Team , then i would prefer that this matter is discussed in its full and accurate context Green108
Unless he is a "recognized authority" then this link is out....
Sethie
17:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This is messy. I note first factual matters. 1) Google appears not to index this page, as I found no search that included it in its results. 2) Copies or excerpts of the report have been posted on at least two discussion boards that Google indexes, but these boards are clearly inferior sources to the original. 3) Wikipedia discourages the posting on Wikipedia of letters or emails (or other communications) without consent of the original author. 4) Serious academic research in the social sciences considers letters and emails to be primary sources, and further to be ones of significant evidentiary value. 5) E. Romain was a published author under BKSWU's auspices on the subject of teaching. One work of which he was an author is cited as "Church, A., Edwards, L. and Romain, E. (1990) Cooperation in the Classroom. London, Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University: Global Cooperation for a Better World." in a book on promoting mental health in schools. 6) I was unable to find any academic links to this particular source. 7) The article is under article probation from the ArbComm (link at top). 8) Wikipedia considers secondary sources more reliable than primary sources for the purpose of building the encyclopedia.
With that background I prepare to evaluate this situation. There are two separate questions. First, is this a reliable source for use in the article? Second, if it is not a reliable source, is it a good external link?
Is this a reliable source for use? I avoid the question of whether using it adheres to the neutral point of view policy, as the answer to that will depend on the entire content of the article, including how the source is used, not on the content of the source, and further was not a topic on which feedback was solicited. First, is this a primary, secondary, or tertiary source? It is clearly not a tertiary source. I believe that the appendices are clearly primary sources. The purpose of the document is described as "a personal assessment of the current level of child protection and child welfare practices in the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (BKWSU)" [emphasis added]. With this purpose, and reading the document, I would say that it is better described as a primary source than a secondary source. "Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source." (from WP:PSTS). The report is clearly self published. WP:SPS says that "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." The only evidence I found that E. Romain had published in the relevant field was a book published by BKWSU. The ArbComm findings include a finding that "material published in Brahma Kumaris related publications is considered self published and thus not verifiable by reliable sources." With this decision made, I have no evidence that E. Romain meets the test of "whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications", even though he is now independent of BKWSU and more of a critic than a supporter. Accordingly, the report does not meet Wikipedia's standards for a reliable source - but if we found evidence that his work in this field had been published by third-party publications then this answer would reverse.
Second, is it a good external link under our guideline? Although the source is not strong enough for use as a source, it is in my eyes reliable enough to be considered a serious report and evaluated as such. Use of communications in academic research is not considered a copyright infringement, and the site is not blacklisted, so neither restriction on linking applies. The report also does not meet any of the four criteria for things that should be linked. The fourth point of "Links to be considered" is "Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." The report clearly meets this test. Contrary to [[ Bksimonb's]] assertion above, this report does not fail "Links normally to be avoided" #2, which is further defined at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Examples#Use of electronic or online sources; the forums at which excerpts or copies have been posted would fail that test, the original of the report does not. However, "Links normally to be avoided" #11 is a real issue. As discussed in the reliable source question, we probably can't treat E. Romain as a "recognized authority". This leaves the link caught in both the categories of "to be considered" and "normally to be avoided". I think the right answer to this is consider and avoid. The ArbComm restrictions ice the cake, and thus we should exclude it. GRBerry 17:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This is the quote from "Is This Justice?"
In correspondence with U.M. Mirchandani the District Magistrate of Sind
2 July 1938, "Please let me have the list of members of the Mandli and the guardians of the children in the Om Nivas School". Signed U.M. Mirchandani
4 July 1938, " Enclosed please find the list of Om Mandli members and guardians of the childreen living in Om Nivas." Signed Om Radhe.
Lekhraj Khubchand Kripalani aged 54
I took the time to copy this out. In July 1938, Kripalani was aged 54. Kripalani was alive, why would feel any need to fake it back then? Green108 20:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I see the minor revisions I made to try to make the article more understandable have been reverted in a pretty antagonistic way, and no other editor has commented. It seems to me I was wrong about this article being improvable. I think you guys intend to spar here forever. I have passed the situation here to more experienced editors and admins. Good luck. Rumiton 11:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
i agree......just ask!!! stop dodging the issue and playing wikilawyer simon
you are the BK PR man , go to Dadi Janki......and say , "Mama Saraswati says Baba was 54 in 1938.... in the 70s BK Jagdish Bhai said he was around 55 when god entered him......now we say he was 60 in 1936 , which one is true and why did it change?"
its so easy.......then report back to us (his son is still alive and in contact......why ask him!!!)
the whole problem stems from these people's inaccuracy and re-writing of their history , let us at least hear what they have to say Green108 20:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This article has been protected from editing for 48 hours due to persistent edit warring. Please discuss the issue to find consensus. Disruptive editing and revert warring are not acceptable. If you cannot come to an agreement or compromise through discussion, please seek dispute resolution. If the conflict and behaviour continues, preventative blocks may be used to disrupt the conflict. Thank you. Vassyana 18:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I will analyze the first part of the article. If there is a positive response, I will continue with the remaining article otherwise, I will consider that compromise in this article may need additional measures.
1.The practise taught by BKWSU involves spirit possession (where women are the instruments or mouthpieces of the male spirit) and mediumistic channelling[5][6]. The practice taught by BKWSU does not involve spirit possession. Please supply a scholar reference where this is stated. the practice of Raja Yoga has no relationship with channelling. Raja Yoga students are not engaged in channeling. The way the first part of the article is written is misleading.
2.Hardy, Hardayal's book is referenced several times. I argue that he is not a scholar who has expertise in the subject. This could be considered a secondary source, if anything but i would like to come to terms with the editors about the sources that we are going to use. I believe most of us agree that Walliss for instance, is a good source. He is a scholar and have expertise in the subject matter, just to give an example.
3."Hindu organizations denounced Om Mandali as a disturber of family peace and some followers were mistreated by their families. " I would like to see the reference for this statement.
4."He was also accused of forming a cult and controlling his community through the art of hypnotism; children were removed from his school[8]." I think this paragraph is misquoted. there are 2 issues here which are not related, hypnotism and children. which one of them the supplied reference points to?
5.Radhe, Brahma-Kumari ? She was stated as a source for a reference. Qualifications , please?
6."To avoid persecution, lawsuits and opposition from the family members of his followers, Lekhraj Kripalani moved his followers from Hyderabad to Karachi." Where is this coming from? I doubt that to be scholar. It is not a fact. The fact is "Lekhraj Kripalani and followers moved to Karachi." The part before that is just speculation.
7.Problem with this paragraph: "To avoid persecution, lawsuits and opposition from the family members of his followers, Lekhraj Kripalani moved his followers from Hyderabad to Karachi. The Anti-Om Mandali Committee, led by the father-in-law of his daugher, and composed of members of his Bhaibund community, which had opposed the group in Hyderabad, followed them[15]. Some Hindu members of the Sindh Assembly threatened to resign unless the Om Mandali was outlawed. Finally, the Sindh Government used the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908 to declare the Om Mandali an unlawful association[7]. Under further pressure from the Hindu leaders in the Assembly, the Government also ordered the Om Mandali to close and vacate its premises[16]. The Om Mandali successfully appealed against the Government order in court." The end result was that the Om Mandali was successful and accepted. Why place so many accusations which at the end were proven wrong? (because "The Om Mandali successfully appealed against the Government order in court.") I can accuse anyone from anything. Innocent until proven guilty.
8. "In April 1950, after the partition of India, the Brahma Kumaris moved to Mount Abu in India, claiming that they had been instructed by God to do so[10]. After Kripalani's death in 1969, his followers expanded the movement to other countries[17]." Jagdish Chander should not be there. As we know he is not considered a reliable source from the perspective of an encyclopedia.
It would like to offer this alternative: (references could be added if required) Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (BKWSU), or Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya, is considered by several religious scholars and academicians to be a new religious movement (NRM).[1], [2] Founded in 1936 in Hyderabad, Sindh[3] (present day Pakistan), its adherents are commonly called BKs.[3] Religious scholar Reender Kranenborg, a research professor at the Institute for the Study of Religion, the Free University, Amsterdam writes, “The entire way of the Brahma Kumaris can be characterized as raja yoga” [4]; however he distinguishes it from the widely known raja yoga defined by Patanjali in that it is not based on the classical astanga, eight-limbed yoga.[5] BK Raj Yoga bears some similarity in aim to other yogic practices, as it can also be considered ”the ladder to spiritual liberation, a practical method of union with God.”[1]
Origins
The movement was founded in 1936, in the region of Sindh which is now in the country of Pakistan, by a retired diamond merchant named Lekhraj Khubchand Kirpalani.[3] At that time, Lekhraj chose to withdraw from worldly life and devote his time to his spiritual practice as a devout Hindu.[1] That experience and the many that were to follow that day were understood to be that God had descended into the body of Lekhraj to impart a “message(s) for humanity regarding the nature of the present age.”[17]
However, the experiences that Lekhraj had and continued to have were not received very well universally in those early days as there was much controversy within the Sindh community over the establishment of Om Mandali, the spiritual school that Lekhraj founded.[17] Lekhraj told the followers that Shiva had renamed Lekhraj who was now called Prajapita Brahma, the Father of Humanity.[17]
A number of cultural factors may be seen to have led to such societal reaction. The primary factor that seems instrumental to the opposition was that the spiritual study and lifestyle drew attention away from family life as chastity was a primary discipline of the practice. Another significant factor for the persecution of the proto-Brahma Kumaris was the significance placed on female religiosity which was a direct challenge to the male-led social order and particularly the role of women within the family and community at that time.[17]
The spiritual school moved from Hyderabad to Karachi (now part of Pakistan) for fourteen years which was, at that time, part of colonial India. The founding group of approximately 300 individuals lived as a self-sufficient community spending much of their time in spiritual study and meditation in an effort to attain the “true self”[4] which is akin to the previously mentioned capacity for total non-violence in thought and deed.[10]
The group moved to the present day location of Madhuban in Mt. Abu, following the partition of India in 1949.[18]
From the time of establishment, through the time of opposition, Brahma Baba encouraged women in particular to “develop their spiritual lives and take leadership roles.”[19] Though the Brahma Kumaris membership in the early years and even now is primarily composed and administered by women, in the Western environment, while they clearly do promote female leadership, they have frequently given leadership roles to men. There appears to have been much variation in gender ratios over time and space across the history of the BKs which seem to be due to the differing patterns of gender relations in the societies of the countries in which the organization operates.[20]
Versions of the organization’s history can be found on the BKWSU websites [9][10].
BKWSU Philosophy
BKWSU philosophy originated from the experiences of the founder, Lekh Raj Kripilani, a devout Hindu diamond merchant who had profound religious experiences. “He felt himself to be an instrument of the Supreme Soul who had passed on the knowledge to him or had him experience it, intending that Lekh Raj pass it on to others. Or, as it was stated, he experienced the love of God who gave him the highest spiritual knowledge.” This experience was different than that with which he was acquainted from his Bhakti.”[6] Lekh Raj reportedly had such encounters for some time.
In the philosophy of the BKWSU, the body is considered to be a “garment” for the soul.[7] Souls are understood to have three components: intellect, conscious mind, and unconscious mind. The intellect receives and digests wisdom or Truth; reasons and discerns; and exhibits will and understanding. Depending on the intellect’s strength, it guides the thoughts that the conscious mind creates. The conscious mind produces thoughts and ideas; emotions, feelings and experiences and can be influenced by either the subconscious mind or by the guidance of the intellect. The unconscious mind contains impressions (sanskaras) that form personality as a consequence of action (karma).
BK ideas about God are a marked departure from Hindu concepts. God is an eternal and conscient being of light, the ‘All-Highest Soul’, ever-pure and good. Although having all knowledge and in that sense being omniscient, he is not omnipresent. Not only is God eternal—an eternal power or energy—but matter and human souls are also eternal; neither are they created by God nor do they emerge from God.
Kranenborg describes the essence of BK cosmology: “In the beginning all souls lived together, with the All-Highest Soul in a non-material world, but because of the law of karma the souls left this world for the material world and entered into human bodies. All souls play their own roles in the material world and therefore assume a body in order to give expression to their original positive qualities… When the soul enters into matter, in the world of action, the game of action and reaction between intellect, mind and subconscious mind begins…. The purpose of this life and future lives are determined by this whole process.” Rebirth is exclusively in human bodies. To be liberated from the game, the human being must learn to burn away negative karma and produce positive karma by attuning himself to the All-Highest Soul. “In other words, only through knowledge of God and the connection with God is a human being liberated.”[6]
Brahma Kumaris teachings accord with classical Hinduism with respect to four world ages: the golden age (sat yuga), the silver age (treta yuga), the copper age (dwapar yuga) and the iron age (kali yuga). Striking deviations from Hinduism are the inclusion of a fifth ‘diamond age’ or confluence age (sangam yuga) and the belief that the whole cycle lasts only 5000 years.
The BKWSU philosophy is considered millenarian, similar to a number of other faith traditions including Christian, Mormon, Rasta, Shakers, Nostradamus, et al., in that there is belief in a coming major transformation of society after which all things will be changed in a positive direction. References in BK teachings on this matter often refer to this world transformation culminating in the Hindu epic of the Mahabharata War. [8]
Would like to hear the input from other editos about this version. What do you like?, what you don't like? why?
Best Wishes, Avyakt7 14:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Avyakt7
This post is in response to the RFC posted today. [23] I have never heard of this group before and have not read the discussion archives, so I am reading this purely as an outside, neutral party.
As an outside reader, the article seems very anti-Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University -- first because of word choices and second because of topic selection. For example, "spirit possession" has a very negative connotation in the West. Does this group say they do spirit possession, or is this someone looking at their literature and then deciding to call it that? If it's the latter it's a clear violation of WP:OR and must be deleted. Another example, in the "Early History" section, many accusations are listed. If these accusations were not proven in a court of law or some other neutral venue, then they cannot be included in the article, because an accusation can be made without proof.
Regarding the Eugene Romain post that prompted the RFC, it is a self-published website (where people can say the earth is flat and the ocean is two feet deep and all other sorts of nonsense), so it should be removed immediately.
If the editors truly wish to have a balanced, neutral article, one suggestion is to reduce this article to a stub of simple facts, and then work from there. Right now there is so much POV material that it seems an overwhelming task to accomplish.
Good luck. Renee -- Renee 15:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
If the word spirit possession is used in reliable sources then it should stay, I think. NPOV (which should not be confused with neutrality) means following what reputable sources have stated. Not significantly changing their wording. Andries 19:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
If an accusation is mentioned in reputable sources and a notable controversy then it can stay. From what I have read (Nagel in German who has a pro BK bias), at least the activities of the anti-BK group are notable and sourced in reputable sources. Andries 19:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The quote is entirely in context and key to the bkwsu
Thank you for confirming that you have no intention of actually buying any books to do the work, to check the reference as other have done. But at least, Riveros, you ought to go and read some more murlis (channelled messages of the Bk god) so that you can understand what it is you are involve in as a Brahma Kumari follower.
Now , I hope others can see the problem we have faced. If other editors will not even check the references , how can we converse with them? Green108 22:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
What has Kranenborg written of any depth? His is not even a proper paper, its just a conference piece that repeats BKWSU PR. It uses all the fluffy language beloved of BK publicity material, e.g. "He had the feeling that he had come into contact with the Supreme". Its a little bit different from the way they tell it to their students, see below Green108 09:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
"A preliminary version of a paper presented at CESNUR 1999" Green108 09:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to address this issue of mediumship and possession from, in the first place, primary sources in order that those that are not BK followers can appreciate what is being referenced here and why. I am going to use on a Word processor on this one as it is important.
Firstly, can I remind contributors that Simon and Riveros are both dedicated BK followers and, at least Simon, a member of the BKWSU organization core Internet PR Team. I tend to see them as a single voice of the BKWSU; Simon and his shadow. The BKWSU invests considerable energy and resources keeping the the more freaky part of its operation.
Secondly, BK Raja Yoga and classical Raja Yoga have nothing in common. The focus of attention in BK Raja Yoga is a channelled entity, a spirit being, that “possessed” Lekhraj Kripalani in the 1930. The BKs claim this spirit entity is, of course, the God of all religions. I emphasise this so that individual realise that we are not talking about some numinous influence or general inspiration, which is how the BKs often sell it to non-BKs.
Channelling or possession is referred to in a variety of different cases in the BKWSU;
I guess to be exact, we would have to qualify the difference between channelling, possession, overshadowing and mediumship; and examine the relationship between the channel or medium and the possessing spirit entity. But that is beyond the scope of this article. What is unquestionable is whether there is the practise of possession, mediumship and channelling going on.
I have to laugh when Riveros says, “used as an instrument”. “Instrument” is a BK word that means the victim of possession or channelling medium in plain English. This is very typical of the BKWSU to attempt to use a word that they are very clear about the meaning but which is hidden to outsiders. “used as an instrument” means either possessed, channelling or acting as a medium.
He goes on to say that “the practise taught by BKWSU) does not involve spirit possession”. This is complete untrue. He may be ignorant of the facts of his own religions but more likely, he, like they “corporate” want to hide all this stuff from newcomers until they are hooked in a relationship with their god spirit.
Beyond the introductory possession and channelling mentioned above, the channelled messages that the possessing spirit speaks through the mediums (called Murlis), clearly confirmed by the largely spoken tradition, identify two more types of psychic influences;
So part and parcel with the core meditation on the primary possessing spirit they call Shiva is the preparation of the BK follower to be used as a channel of the mind and energy of these other paranormal influences.
Both the original and paraphrase quotations are correct. High social status and importance does go to those sisters that are channels and trance mediums for the male spirits. Without them there would be no Raja Yoga. It might be hard to visualise for non-BKs, but what we are talking about is 1,000s of people sitting down believing that God has entered into a little old Indian lady in Mount Abu, speaking to them personally and meeting them eye to eye. In the old days, it used to be possible to have conversations with him.
The final context we have to put this is in the BKWSU determination to hide all this from non-BKs and how ill it fits with their corporate and political ambitions.
Forget all the waffle, this is what the removal is all about. The BKWSU does not want outsiders to know that they are being initiated into an relationship with a ghost that possesses an old Indian lady. The BKWSU wants outsiders to think that they are meeting a universal God or some vague, inspirational “energy” or “source”. This is the language they prefer to use.
I argue against this. I think we have a responsibility to the greater community, through the Wikipedia, to provide factual truths; not some organization's PR or whitewash.
Without the "Ghost", there would be and could be no BK Raja Yoga. If the ghost, to quote the Indian presidential stories, turns out to the God of all religions as the BKs believe, then we are fine. We have done a good job advertising his coming. But you non-BKs must understand that the BKs believe this is god that has possessed Lekhraj Kripalani and has “come to destroy all other religions”. That is an exact quote.
The BKWSU followers wants to re-write this topic into some vague, flattering New Agey advertisement Green108
There is nothing uncivil about that summary. Is that really the best response you can come up with? Another personal attack and more projection? More PR spin? That is just the cool, detached truth in non-BK language. To answer Simon above, I do not know of any anti-BK websites … (oh, may be one; The Owelsong website).
Let’s look at the BKWSU own stories of "the possession of Lekhraj Kripalani" (although personally I do not believe it is actually true as written) and how he became a medium and channel to this other “spirit entity”.
On one occasion, the BKWSU claims his eyes shone red, the room was filled with red light around him and a booming voice spook out of him. (I doubt that it said “Shivohum, Shivohum” because there was no mention of Shiva until after 1950 at least).
On another occasion, the BKWSU claims he was falling to pieces and becoming like a child drawing Swastikas and Circles on the wall of a family house, they had to send him away because, presumably, they thought he was cracking up. It is reported that he thought he was going mad. Then it is said he had psychic visions. And during the early period, so were all the kids going into trance, having psychic experiences and dancing
Now, frankly, that is close to Linda Blair territory. I appreciate that. after all its financial investment, time and energy spent in PR, the BKWSU is uncomfortable at having its inner truths made public, but what else is the mechanism at play here?
To BKs, it is no problem. The possessing spirit is God. It is not about the mechanics, it is about the quality of this spirit entity which you/they think is Supreme. Fine. The rest of the world might think otherwise, especially if he is set on destroying their religions and way of life.
I think what underpins it as “possession” is the involuntary nature of it. Kripalani did not want it, did not ask for it, did not prepare and exercise himself to become a medium; but medium is what he was called in the organisation for most of its existence and channelling is what Gulzar does. Was her initiation as medium voluntary or did Shiva and the deceased Kripalani just possess her?
For non-BKs all the other references are accurate and taken from the organisation’s own channelled messages (almost and mostly verbatim) and publicity material which I can reference and are included in the article itself Green108 09:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Per the discussions above, I'd like to take a crack at streamlining this article where issues are contested (just give a neutral statement and retain the cites) as well as neutralize the language a bit. Feedback welcome. -- Renee 14:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
In the interests of making this a "nice" article to be involved with I am proposing we archive the talk with the exception of the above "Edits?" post. Although a lot of the threads are live they have become huge and are full of civility and other issues.
We can restart any important threads as required. Let me know if you have any views otherwise I will perform the operation tomorrow.
Regards Bksimonb 15:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)