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Currently, the opening of the article is a real mess. I'd like to invite opinions of ALL editors on what they see as being important to include in the opening paragraph to the article. Currently - in my humble opinion - there is far too much prominence of words and themes like "mediums" and "channels". I think it's fair to include this stuff somewhere in the article, but not as the opening lines of it. I would prefer using a more academic approach to the intro - which gives a more neutral description of the BKs, based on who they are and what they actually do. Any thoughts greatly appreciated. I'll then take a crack at it myself. ~~Appledell (for some reason, my auto-signature doesn't seem to work)
I am re-inserting a Neutrality warning box to reflect the current state of the article and the concerns raised by Appledell. Just quickly scanning through I can see quite a few contentious statements and weasel words such as "It is claimed that women control men". Exactly who is making the claim? Bryan Wilson? Does he actually use the phrase, "Misandry- It is claimed that women control men in a complete role reversal". Words like "Misandry", "control" and "complete role reversal" are a bit strong unless he used them himself. Is that just an interpretation of what he said? This needs to be clearly specified in the sentence especially since it is a contentious claim. Also, how about this classic, "but rather declines birth after birth until its lowest 'fag end' at the end of the 20th Century". "Fag end" is in quotes. Who is it quoting exactly?
Also there seem to be some factual errors, "Following this opposition, which curtailed their activities, the gathering moved from Karachi to their current location in Mount Abu, Rajasthan [23]". We discussed this a long time ago. The reference given does not cite opposition as the reason for the move to Mount Abu. Also, "The Murlis are no longer available for sale or to the general public and one must complete the Brahma Kumaris foundation course in order to attend morning murli class.", when were they ever on sale to the public and where is the citation?
OK. I've run out of lunch time. Will add some tags to the article soon, hopefully.
Regards Bksimonb 13:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed some dodgy references. There are some murli references which are internal documents and so not easily verifiable by the public. One thread on the arb com workshop indicates that they may not be used [3] but only with regards to proving contentious points. If other editors feel strongly about this issue I can post a "request for clarification" on the arb com noticeboard. There was one reference simply labelled as "An early BK textbook states". Hmmm. Regards Bksimonb 12:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Apparently this word means "hatred of men". Should this be under "lifestyle"? It certainly isn't encouraged or considered to be a core BK belief. Hatred of any sort is defintiely a no-no. If Bryan Wilson is of the opinion that this takes place in the BKWSU then perhaps it should be under the "controversies" section and attributed to him.
Talkabout, did Bryan Wilson actually use this word? The reason I ask is because the word "Misogyny", meaning "hatred of women", was originally used and corrected to "Misandry" by Septegram.
Regards Bksimonb 07:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a section on beliefs in the Controversies section. I am assuming this is a mistake. Perhaps we can either combine this with the existing beliefs section or just decide which one is best referenced to keep.
Also the Sunday Mail stuff is overblown and treated as if it were a reliable source for information, which is isn't. Surfice to say that the BKs get some negative press in tabloid newspapers and link to it as an example. I found a link to the citation by Walliss used here [6]. It appears to be from abstracts to a lecture held in 2000 at the University of Exeter [7].
Regards Bksimonb 11:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
This is in my personal opinion a pretty dodgy section to keep...where does it end? There are thousands of people who are associcated with the BKs - what parameters are being set for this? Just people that certain editors might want to include for their own agendas? I of course appreciate that this section may well have been started in good faith, but it is wide open to abuse from banned editors who no doubt will be popping up again in a new incarnation - or people associated with them. I propose deleting this section in a week unless rigorous arguments can be given. By the way...hello to the new editors! See if you can play nice and discuss matters here first - it would be v helpful to maintaining the conducive relations that have formed here of late. Appledell 20:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC) Appledell
Hi Talkabout. I'm all for adding some pictures to the article where appropriate. Certainly it seems appropriate to show the main seniors and/or main buildings. The only concern I have is with Copyright, however such images may be covered under Fair_use. I have some concern about any image sourced from the BKI site since I am quite sure that no attempt would have been made to get permission from the author to upload it there, however if the image is non-contentious to all of us here, and it is covered under fair use, then we are in the clear.
Would you be kind enough to post a direct link to the picture? Let me see if I can trace it to source so we can be sure of the copyright if that turns out to be an issue.
The safest pictures are ones where the person that took the photo is happy to release it under GFDL. I took some of M'ban buildings last October such as Om Shanti Bawan, Madhuban Courtyard and Diamond Hall that I would be happy to upload under GFDL. I already uploaded one of them to a non-related article [8] just to see how the process worked. Also, you may know Ex-BKs who have pictures they kept and would be willing to release for use here.
Thanks & regards Bksimonb 21:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
OK. Here are the proposed images. Regards Bksimonb 20:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
{{Multiple issues|disputed=March 2008|POV=March 2008}} Bksimonb, Can you place the above tag above the area you are "Totally Disputing" rather than the whole article. This will give us a working point and we can then remove the tags as the clarifications go forth.PEACE TalkAbout 02:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/195.82.106.244_%282nd%29
To anyone who comments on this TalkPage:
PEACE TalkAbout 15:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello.
I am from a Christian family and have observed the Brahmakumaris at a number of interreligious events. I would like to propose the following section on the Brahma Kumaris Spiritual University's view of Christianity.
The BKWSU's view on Christianity
"[Contrary to the beliefs of Christianity], just as far as God the Father was now sharing a body with Brahma Baba, in the same way Christ had entered the body of Jesus. [The BKWSU say] it was Jesus who suffered on the cross, not Christ. Christ, the pure Son of God left the body early and went to take rebirth to help guide his fledgling religion into maturity. [They claim that] many more secrets about Christ and the other religious founders have been revealed by Baba."
The quotation is almost word for word, except for grammatical additions marked above, from page 270 of 'A Reader in New Religious Movements' by George Chryssides and Marget Wilkins. Book number 0-80826-6168-9.
FAITH
Faithinhumanity 20:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I dont think so simon...........the Bible is pretty clear on Christianity and every one knows what they believe ,even if they dont. please answer what TalkAbout asked Green108 14:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I am mainly interested in putting forward a Christian point of view. The article is about the Brahma Kumaris. Rev. Scotland is a professor at a theological college. He specialises in new religions. I am concerned by the teaches about Christ. I do not know about the other religions. Also about the nature of heaven. The Brahma Kumaris say there is nuclear power there and supersonic airplanes. I have another quote for this.
FAITH
Faithinhumanity 20:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. It is from the same book. Page 306. Do I just put my comments in like everbody else? Or do we have to agree?
"The airplanes will form a line in your palaces, and will be very easy to handle. All work will be performed on the basis of atomic energy. It is for you that this last invention of science has beeb emeged. accha.
Just start the plane and you will reach faster than the speed of sound. The airplanes will be so fast that you will reach in the same amount of time as it takes to make a phone call. Therefore, no need for telephones. There will be family sized airplanes as well as individual ones."
What do I do about the other quote. It seems rather cult-like to me. Not to question the leader.
FAITH
Faithinhumanity 20:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to say "hi".
I joined a while ago but I could not post on this page. I see the problems you have been having here. How can I help?
Omshanti.
Bkangel
let's get back to that bit we had in about the failed predictions of Destruction ,any BK that has been in Gyan more than 10 or 15 years knows about them. it seems like Simon has admitted up to the 'famous' 1976 one ,i can tell you that in the murlies they used to predict that Destruction would take place in 50 years and Creation in 50 years and that was taken from when Shiva Bab entered into Brahma Baba..........that changed to 50 to 60 and now we are at 70 years ....also in 2000 there was talk or fearmongering with centres preparing for it. ok; that is the inside view that is being covered up by all this Wikilawyering. Simon knows it ,Mauren knows it ,Jayanti used to read it out of the murlies in the morning for years.. .....by 'wikilawyering' I quote what the BKs have been doing here to control the article;
Abiding by the letter of a policy or guideline while violating its spirit; Asserting that the technical interpretation of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines should override the principles they express; and Misinterpreting policy or relying on technicalities to justify inappropriate actions.
but anyway I finally found the book I knew existed that documented some of this ............if you add it to the others that talk about the chosen few ,i think it sticks now.
"Year 2000 doomed: Mankind destroyed" [Exclusive report on imminent world destruction] by Keerthi Kelegama 1998. ISBN 955-95823-3-X
"This World shattering report on imminent world destruction, examines scientific evidence, reports, prophecies, visions, scriptures, divine revelations etc. Its inevitability frightens the reader and prepares him to escape the destruction. ... How to escape destruction" is the last chapter. 900,000 people will be saved from it and you could be one of them."
Keerthi Kelegama is or was a reporter/editor for the 'Observer and Sunday Observer', state-owned premier newspaper company established 1918 in Sri Lanka and biggest selling english newspaper. its not a taboid.............what makes it more important is he says......
"I discussed with Dr. Nirmala Kajaria, Regional Director of Brahmakumari Raja Yoga Centres in Australia, New Zealand and Asia Pacific on matters connected with this book. She gave me her blessings to write this book for the benefit of the people. She wrote to me from Singapore and gave me encouragement."
Keerthi Kelegama has given evidence before the Presidential Commission, was National Organiser of the Union of Journalists in Sri Lanka and active member of the Free Media Movement. He has had books published by the Bar Association of Sri Lanka carrying the messages of the Chief Justice of Sri Lanka and The Netherlands ambassador, the latter sponsored the printing.
"The world destruction is impending, almost imminent. Religions, scientific research and reports etc. etc. confirm it. Christians believe that the world's end would take place almost immediately while Hindu-oriented Brahmakumaris who runs over thousand Raja yoga meditation centres throughout the world, declare emphatically that the time is now ripe for the world destruction to take place. The Christians belief of imminent world destruction is based on some signs which the Holy bible speaks of, heralding the world destruction. Prophet Mohammed also talked of the emergence of major and minor signs for the destruction to take place which are now apparent.
...
Brahmakumaris say that the world destruction takes place in every 5000 years and that 5000 years have already passed after the previous destruction. Soon the new world order would be started with 900,000 people after destroying the rest.
...
The year 2000 is very crucial, records an end of a historical millennium, and the 20th century has produced unimaginably vast technological and scientific development threatening the nature itself. "
so ,there you have 500 years, imminent and 900,000 like this topic used to say before the Bks took it out as unverified. more ,quote:
Brahmakumaris World Spiritual University affiliated to the United Nations Department of Public Information as a non-governmental organisation teaches that in every 5000 years world destruction takes place and now is the time for it. ... World destruction is also part of the drama. That is why it is taking place regularly Kalpa after Kalpa that means in every 5000 years.
...
examining the facts and evidence before me, I could fearlessly declare that "year 2000 will be doomed and mankind annihilated." Read my research work and you will be convinced It is necessary to bring this vital fact of imminent world destruction to the knowledge of the broad masses. Those who believe and the chosen, may follow the divine instructions, found in this book too, in order that they may be saved from the destruction.
...
Brahmakumaris also expect the world destruction to take place immediately followed by the birth of Krishna once again. Brahmakumari devotees who went to their headquarters in Madhuban, Rajasthan, India, in December last year, were told that time is very short. Even those who hold fixed deposits in banks maturing in the year 2000 would not be able withdraw them. They were instructed to withdraw them at the end of this year. However what a top figure of Brahmakumaris want me to write in this book is that in a very short time, the destruction would begin.
...
Lord Shiva take possession of her [Gulzar] at stipulated times and the knowledge passed on through her, is given out to the Brahmakumari devotees calling it "Murali" almost every day at their centres, since the commencement of their movement in 1937. Devotees listen to them in rapt attention, it being God's word especially given to them.
...
Some time back in Brahmakumari Muralis said quoting Lord Shiva that to begin with one news paper would first write about the world destruction and then all the other papers would follow. This is the beginning and gradually more and more news would be repeatedly carried in books papers TVs, and Radios, more than all, by word of mouth till such time it would reach all the people when the definite coming events would become common knowledge.
...
Those with a far-reaching intellect who have achieved the blessing of all powers through Yoga and so on, wherever they may be, any suffering will be transformed into pinpricks. In other words, they will be safe. Most of the people see only the destruction but for those who are ready, they only see the establishment of a new kingdom, heaven on earth.
...
There must be 900,000 pure souls who are ready to take over the new world order (Golden Age) before the destruction would begin. When the Golden Age [Sath Yug] comes after the world destruction, it would only be heaven on earth. People there would literally be deities. But again after another five thousand years they would deteriorate into present levels of morality by going through said four Yugs
...
A celibate to lead a house hold life is quite difficult. They should be vegetarians and not eating onions and garlic which promotes sex. Others who eat these stuff only pretend to be celibates. It is biologically impossible to eat non vegetarian foods especially with onions and garlic and remain celibate. They have to commit perversions at least.
...
Brahmakumari even conduct workshops for their devotees on the golden age that was to come. How it functions. About the rulers of the golden age and what were the governing principles then and so on, on the basis of godly knowledge granted to them by Lord Shiva through Prajapitha Brahma or Sister Gurusal which are called Murlies
...
Colombo Brahmakumari Centre plans to erect a hall before June 14, 1998, which could accommodate at least 500 people. Purpose is more than holding meetings, they wanted to accommodate their devotees when the destruction begins. Because they know very well that Almighty God would protect these centres.
...
In one Murali of Brahmakumaris, Lord Shiva also said that he would afford a vision of good and bad acts each person has committed before the destruction.
...
Fact remains that wars too form a part of the destruction. People might not like to call it destruction instead it may be called setting up the foundation to establish the new world order. Brahmakumaris who are basically responsible for spreading this message have been inculcated with this knowledge by Parajapitha Brahama who was the founder of their movement. He did so on the instruction of Almighty God himself. About 900,000 people who take over the new world are picked from those who lead pure life. At present the number of people ready to commence the Golden Age is only 400,000 to 500,000.
...
If each of them could help one more to evolve like himself to be pure, celibate and god- loving who is constantly in remembrance of God, then one year or so is enough for the destruction to begin. Pure souls who have died would also return once the new world order is established.
...
New world would be established only in India and the destruction could begin its beginning too from India. Brahmakumaris' founder Guru Prajapitha Barama, became aware of the destruction through Almighty God himself who came to reside in his body and spoke through him over the world destruction, the liberation of the soul, and soul world and heaven etc. since 1937. Brahmakumari centres established throughout the world give out this message and also instruct people of what action they should take before such calamity.
...
Lord Shiva appears in Sister Gurzal on certain days for one or two hours when Brahmakumari devotees of Shiva remain in respectful silence in their centres. Some goes to Madhuban to see Lord Shiva who is in the body of Sister Gurusal. Accordingly Brahmakumaris dole out the Shiva-given knowledge to the devotees which is called Murali.
...
the chapters are on Warning before previous destruction, How Atlantis civilisation destroyed, Why world's end necessary, Importance of India, New World Order - Golden Age, How to escape destruction and so on.....................
i can tell you this is how it is ,the is the truth , these are the teachings and this captures the vibe ,especially with the bharatwasis. i have no interest in quibbling over which part of it to use or so on ,...............but I think that is is clear enough to put back the bits the Bks took out. YOU GOT DESTRUCTION, YEAR 2000, 900,000, BKS BEING TOLD TAKE MONEY OUT, and so on. there is a load more and it all confirms what the murlies and senior sisters were teaching. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Green108 ( talk • contribs) 13:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC).
it verifies the 900,000 for the start of the golden age , and the birth of krishna. as Bks you know this is what is taught as "fact", now we have the citation. so they can go back in. it correllates with the chosen few spoken about the other authors. likewise 'heaven in India'
so do we agree those are now verified facts ? i cannot see how they can be contentious , they are facts.
as far as destruction goes what classes as a "press release" brahma baba writing to king george of england (adi dev) ? was brahma baba too emotional or not good enough for you appledell ? why would a press release be considered a better reliable source than an independent third party that has investigated the BKWSU ? you are contradicting simon request for verifiable sources. Green108 21:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
.........................according to your agenda as a bk. its just your point of view. the gentleman's credentials are good and he has reported the way it was. if you are going to cut things out ,appledell dont make misleading statements in the summary Green108 22:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
so is there any argument about the 900,000 figure being the one Baba gives? Green108 23:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
at the time Liz wrote her book you could say she was a Bk, or part-time Bk, and was still married to Neville Hodgkinson........a very important Bk. as such i think that any quote from her should be discounted because of an obvious bias. i took out appledells contribution also because every cycle time religion believes life goes on.
tell me , why is it OK for you as a Bk to put in a quote..........and one from another Bk............when it is not OK for for a non-BK to put in a quotation from a respected professional journalist?
i am serious..................why? Green108 22:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
liz's book is sold by the Brahma Kumaris Information Service ,and the admins said no Bk publications. that is what simon says.
on the BKs page it says........."A personal account of the birth and growth of a powerful spiritual organisation. "
how could it be personal is she was not involved? she got involved with the Bks in 1981 ,this is a conflict of interest.
you ignored my question again................why is it OK to use a book by a BK supporter writing a personal account when it is not OK to use a quote from a non-BK journalist? Green108 14:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
oh.....and I want to add , it says on Liz's website that she writes for "Sunday People, Daily Mail and Sun". that makes her a ,very tabloid journalist.
i really dont want to get into get into word twisting debates......how many books does the BK Publications BKIS sell by nonBks? liz was a sort of Bk ,she just could not keep it up her relationship with Neville makes her too close to be objective. Green108 03:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
like i say below...........whats a Bk and when do you start and stop being a Bk? there is no official membership. they were still married when Neville came into gyan werent they? why did they divorce? liz used to dress up in white , sit on the guddi and get special attention from dadi , come to programs and so on........is that more or less a Bk than a hindi that comes once a week on sunday? why was she given unlimited access to the seniors when even junior Bks cannot when they are having problems? unfortunately that does not guarantee impartial truth. she a journalist writes for The Sun and The People that puts her in a different league from academics Green108 09:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear All, Just wanted to drop by and say "hello" to my wikipedia brothers and sisters on my way back from Madhuban. That "history hall" is filled with such an uplifting atmosphere that you got to be dead not to feel it...Similarly but not quite the same, are the vibrations around Baba"s room in GCH, London. Had some subtle experiences with God, which I am sure will nourish me for the rest of this year...Not a place like Madhuban in the whole world, I am sure. Not even the vibrations in Macchu Picchu, comes close. Accha... Blessings from the heart, avyakt7 09:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Allegations of disruptive editing have been made. Unfortunately the form of article probation put in place by the Arbitration Committee does not allow direct action against disruptive editors (other than the banned 195 editor). I have asked the Committee to review the situation; you may wish to make a comment here as well. (Be reasonably brief and please don't argue over content) Thatcher131 15:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
i just wanted to clear this up one up for once and for all , the Bks have said that murlies are not or have never been for sale or available to the public.........whatever.
then why did this one have an ISBN number?
The Spiritual Powers of the Soul: extracts from Shiva Baba's Murlis, Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya,1999, ISBN 0-9587230-8-7
i have a couple of others...........
the Song Divine II God The Supreme speaking with the Angel Brahma to his Brahmin Children in Madhuban during the 1979-80 Season and Avyakt Bapdada 1987-1988
these were sold and circulated as service to non-bk and you can still buy them now online now if you look , if anyone wants them i might even send you mine ,so that does end that conversation?
Green108 04:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
(re-indenting)
Stephan Nagel has published four murlis in his 1999 German language book. Andries 21:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Bksimonb, I will let you and the others deal with Shankar Party, as I noted that the infogami is closed (dried up all the comments that I could research...darn)due to spamming by them. So, I would not want to show up here and find the Talk Page filled with that. Besides, I don't really know that they have provided enough evidence as to a relationship with the BKs. So, have fun with that one.PEACE TalkAbout 18:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
i almost done putting back what the Bks took out because they said there were no citations.........the lack of citations was the only reason to remove them, the refences are pukka but they need put into the right form. I dont know if someone else can help with this. Green108 07:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Thats wot I did and they kept putting back in just cos it was me. I rather liked the sound of the spirit delivering a massage through the medium. LOL!! Shortskirtlonglegs
patanjali raja yoga is mental too and not about physical exercise.............best leave that for the raja yoga page Green108 22:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
i changed the date to match the new citations i have provided..............its not really clear exactly which date should be used ,as Om Mandli could actually be 1937 or 1938 , will anyone check the originals? Green108 16:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is the following sentence in the section controversies?
Most people will of course treat such a statement with skepticism, but from my reading of Babb's "Redemptive Encounters" it is simply part of the faith and it is not an especially controversial belief. Andries 19:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
andries...........bro , the quote is in the controversial section not because there is any controversy the Bks believe it...........there is none........but because of the belief itself
the Bks believe that for the first 2500 out of the last 5000 human being made babies without sex ,and that starting from about now.........they will start doing so again
it has to be now and not in 30 year times when the golden age starts because by now all krishna and the other golden aged souls should be getting born
if that is not a little controversial then i will have some of whatever you are drinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Green108 09:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
its fine as it is...............its a controversy , your period is of no interest to this topic
id just be careful in the meanwhile that simon or appedell do not try and get you pregnant by the power of thought because they need loads of baby krishnas to be born right now in order to make the golden age Green108 05:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Andries 18:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand the following sentence because the atomic bomb was a secret unitl 1945. Can somebody please explain here or in the article?
Andries 21:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
it was all made up at a later date ,none of it is true.......its all based on the publicity material the Bks churn out , they just wanted to make kirpalani look like arjuna from the bhagadvad gita.....it is correct that the heads on the cats were roosevelt and stalin because they thought that world war II was the end of the world........then around 1950.......then they had to change later etc.........unless the bk know something we do not the russian did not even have nuclear bombs in 1945!!!!!!!!!
looking at the older material from the 30s and 40s there is no mention of muclear bombs.........it is "gas" they were worried about
you might be right that we should make it clearer that this is what the Bks say now but it was not what the Bks said then , the history has all been re-written by the bkwsu Green108 10:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
i asked a reasonable question because Indian Bks keep coming on and deleting any reference to the PBKs........now even the Western Bks are deleting references to that on this discussion page http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3ABrahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University&diff=126805018&oldid=126765913
it was a reasonable question ,we know what is going on between the Bks and Pbks.......the beatings and the banishment...........it is relates to the article and has been going on forever
those Bks are out of order , do we need to lock the article again to stop them?
the Bk team also cut out another users question..........here http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3ABrahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University&diff=126701898&oldid=123756677 its censorship Green108 16:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
for accuracy , the other BK editor gunvanth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Gunvanth was a recently created single user account which would also have been stopped if the article was locked.
simon , if you have a problem with an issue ,i think it is best to request an admin to look into it and allow them to make neutral changes.............you and Appledall are a Bks and you at least are a member of the BKWSU IT Team..............as such you have a conflict of interest , the policy states;
you should avoid or exercise great caution when:
editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with
participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors
avoid breaching relevant policies and guidelines, especially neutral point of view, attribution, and autobiography'
Green108 01:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
in the article it says that after 1952 the Bks started offering the seven day course...........but in her letter to mahatma gandhi of 25 april 1939, om radhe invites him for one
the received history is not true again...........can any Bk provide accurate references here? when did the 7 day course start?
also reading all the stuff they wrote about Prajapati God Brahma and the original paintings with no mention of shiva...............when did god shiva actually enter into the picture? again ,accurate references please
does the Bkwsu still have these original english language "Divine Decrees" from the 30s and 40s in print? Green108 03:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
original research states ,"Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source"
no one is interpreting anything...........if it is a simple matter of reading a date and being able accurately reference other sources then it is perfectly acceptable
the problem with all of the secondary and tertiary sources others are using is that they are not actually historical studies but research on some other aspect of the Bks which have only mentioned its history in passing and depending on publicity or propagandic material from the Bkwsu without checking original sources........no we are able to identify without interpretation exactly Green108 01:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
It's disappointing that there are a few misleading sentences in the article with refs/citations that turn out to not support what is written. I'll be amending them in time. However, can I start with this sentence under the section of God in the article:
"Between 1939 and 1949 the organisation stated that Lekhraj Kirpalani was thought to be the God". This is then cited to a Karachi court paper, which says:
"The garb of religion is used to cover Dada Lekhraj's activities. He knows nothing of religion and has never practised any. His cult furthers the object he has in view. He is God, the members of the Om Mandli to whom he imparts Gian become Gods; a God can commit no sin............they cannot sin", 'Brahma-Kumari Radhe, Om Mandli & the Om Nivas and their suppression, by application of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908' 1939, Pharmacy Printing Press, ISBN: B00089UWHE p 36 quoting the Karachi Court papers.
I'll allow 7 days for a reasonable response before I make any changes. Appledell 18:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
These letters apparently from Om Radhe (I have my doubts about their veracity - but that's irrelevent) are primary sources, even if they are genuine. They can't be used as refs/citations in a wikipedia article. I'll remove the related wording in the article they are attached to, unless there are any reasoned objections. I'll allow 7 days before I make any changes. Thanks Appledell 18:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't know what the official BK position of them is, but I don't have a problem with them being in the article - I agree, they are of historical interest in the article. Would have been nice if they could have been discussed here first, but I appreciate that is not the practice of some editors. Appledell 10:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
give it a rest appledell and let us have a bit of om shanti here
as above.......are you Bks actually acquiring copies of the many papers and published book we are providing here? ,we cannot have a discussion if you are not reading the referenced material
it feels to me that the two of you are just sitting there trying to wiki-lawyer your way to control what is and is not on the discussion page and the topic and gaming the system through endless complaints about others? look ,another one....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Association_of_Members%27_Advocates/Requests/March_2007/Bksimonb
why cant the Bkwsu just be open about what it has in its archives or library ?
Green108 18:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
LOL!!!!!!!! the bks have insidiously re-written their history just like they are re-writing the murlis too. the cats out the bag!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets face it 1932 to 1949. Brahma Baba and the BKWSU were not exactly fast learners. So when did they re-write things to include Shiva Baba!!!!!!!! Cos this blows the official version of the history out of the window, and the official historians and all the academics that have parroted their PR, init!!!!! So where are your citations now ŘBKs!!!!!!
Shortskirtlonglegs 16:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
is this the way the Bkwsu tries to build up a case against non-Bks....................Bk-haters now , isn't that a bit like someone on the israel page calling anyone that posts difficult but objective comments a jew-hater? please stop this
i ask you again ,why cant the Bkwsu just be open about what it has in its archives or library?
Green108 20:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
because not all jews are political zionists..........not all jews support the political state of israel ,so your metaphor does not work simon. i am being very specific........the leadership of the Bkwsu and those Bks that take Shrimat from them do not repesent the opinions of all Bks and yet they cover up and supress information
its a bit off the subject but why cant israel be open about its nuclear weapons and human rights abuses?...........why couldnt the Bkwsu be open about its Nuclear powered "transformation" and its abuses? it works
i ask you again simon , here we have serious re-writes............why cant the Bkwsu just be open about what else it has in its archives or library? Green108 17:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
simon , i see you reported and got banned a user called "Reachouttrust"
[25]...........is it any coincidence that the Reachout Trust have pages exposing the Bkwsu????? all they did was change an edit of yours from "claims to inform" to "inform"
[26]. isnt that a bit of a conflict of interest.............are you trying to have me banned too ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Association_of_Members%27_Advocates/Requests/March_2007/Bksimonb........it would have been nice to have just welcomed them as a newcomer and offered help.
these are your own words about me to date , there are probably more elsewhere on the wikipedia but i can be bothered finding them ,i think they make my point , "edit waring............war of words......biased and aggressive......more aggressive bouts......anti editor.......pushing negative quotes.........onslaught.........argue aggressively.......make accusations........POV warrior..........negative pressure........biased, misinformative attack.................very agressive and attacking.............muppet "
if you are trying to set me up like avyakt7 set .244 up , why should i reply to you? Green108 22:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
do you want me to respond in some way you can then report or use as evidence against me as above ? if you have a conflict of interest with the organisation you are surrendered to then you should be very careful in what you do and say
where are the Bkwsu's citations proving when they changed gyan to say that shiva had come.......it must be after 1950 because i have another one that proves in 1949 they still believed in prajapati god brahma and there was no mention of shiva Green108 16:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
james...........please read the notice at the top of the page , i will answer you on either your own or my own , or the AMA case...........you chose which
Green108 01:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Although I do not with to distract from this interesting dialogue. May I suggest to new links. I do not subscribe to Islam. But they have a closer relationship to Christianity through the Abrahamic tradition. I discovered two links from the websie of the Islamic Voice newspaper published in Karnataka. India.
http://www.islamicvoice.com/november.98/dialogue.htm http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.99/dialogue.htm
Are these acceptable? Faithinhumanity 19:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I am sure that this is not the place to discuss how a Christain family reconciles your current faith. Is the link acceptable as an Islamic point of view on general ground then?
Faithinhumanity 17:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I have taken out some unsourced info in the critisism section. It is not a good idea to have critisism in the article that may be false. I am not saying that it is false though. If you can find a source feel free to add it back and make sure to post the source. Have a nice week and God bless:)-- James, La gloria è a dio 10:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Currently, the opening of the article is a real mess. I'd like to invite opinions of ALL editors on what they see as being important to include in the opening paragraph to the article. Currently - in my humble opinion - there is far too much prominence of words and themes like "mediums" and "channels". I think it's fair to include this stuff somewhere in the article, but not as the opening lines of it. I would prefer using a more academic approach to the intro - which gives a more neutral description of the BKs, based on who they are and what they actually do. Any thoughts greatly appreciated. I'll then take a crack at it myself. ~~Appledell (for some reason, my auto-signature doesn't seem to work)
I am re-inserting a Neutrality warning box to reflect the current state of the article and the concerns raised by Appledell. Just quickly scanning through I can see quite a few contentious statements and weasel words such as "It is claimed that women control men". Exactly who is making the claim? Bryan Wilson? Does he actually use the phrase, "Misandry- It is claimed that women control men in a complete role reversal". Words like "Misandry", "control" and "complete role reversal" are a bit strong unless he used them himself. Is that just an interpretation of what he said? This needs to be clearly specified in the sentence especially since it is a contentious claim. Also, how about this classic, "but rather declines birth after birth until its lowest 'fag end' at the end of the 20th Century". "Fag end" is in quotes. Who is it quoting exactly?
Also there seem to be some factual errors, "Following this opposition, which curtailed their activities, the gathering moved from Karachi to their current location in Mount Abu, Rajasthan [23]". We discussed this a long time ago. The reference given does not cite opposition as the reason for the move to Mount Abu. Also, "The Murlis are no longer available for sale or to the general public and one must complete the Brahma Kumaris foundation course in order to attend morning murli class.", when were they ever on sale to the public and where is the citation?
OK. I've run out of lunch time. Will add some tags to the article soon, hopefully.
Regards Bksimonb 13:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed some dodgy references. There are some murli references which are internal documents and so not easily verifiable by the public. One thread on the arb com workshop indicates that they may not be used [3] but only with regards to proving contentious points. If other editors feel strongly about this issue I can post a "request for clarification" on the arb com noticeboard. There was one reference simply labelled as "An early BK textbook states". Hmmm. Regards Bksimonb 12:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Apparently this word means "hatred of men". Should this be under "lifestyle"? It certainly isn't encouraged or considered to be a core BK belief. Hatred of any sort is defintiely a no-no. If Bryan Wilson is of the opinion that this takes place in the BKWSU then perhaps it should be under the "controversies" section and attributed to him.
Talkabout, did Bryan Wilson actually use this word? The reason I ask is because the word "Misogyny", meaning "hatred of women", was originally used and corrected to "Misandry" by Septegram.
Regards Bksimonb 07:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a section on beliefs in the Controversies section. I am assuming this is a mistake. Perhaps we can either combine this with the existing beliefs section or just decide which one is best referenced to keep.
Also the Sunday Mail stuff is overblown and treated as if it were a reliable source for information, which is isn't. Surfice to say that the BKs get some negative press in tabloid newspapers and link to it as an example. I found a link to the citation by Walliss used here [6]. It appears to be from abstracts to a lecture held in 2000 at the University of Exeter [7].
Regards Bksimonb 11:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
This is in my personal opinion a pretty dodgy section to keep...where does it end? There are thousands of people who are associcated with the BKs - what parameters are being set for this? Just people that certain editors might want to include for their own agendas? I of course appreciate that this section may well have been started in good faith, but it is wide open to abuse from banned editors who no doubt will be popping up again in a new incarnation - or people associated with them. I propose deleting this section in a week unless rigorous arguments can be given. By the way...hello to the new editors! See if you can play nice and discuss matters here first - it would be v helpful to maintaining the conducive relations that have formed here of late. Appledell 20:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC) Appledell
Hi Talkabout. I'm all for adding some pictures to the article where appropriate. Certainly it seems appropriate to show the main seniors and/or main buildings. The only concern I have is with Copyright, however such images may be covered under Fair_use. I have some concern about any image sourced from the BKI site since I am quite sure that no attempt would have been made to get permission from the author to upload it there, however if the image is non-contentious to all of us here, and it is covered under fair use, then we are in the clear.
Would you be kind enough to post a direct link to the picture? Let me see if I can trace it to source so we can be sure of the copyright if that turns out to be an issue.
The safest pictures are ones where the person that took the photo is happy to release it under GFDL. I took some of M'ban buildings last October such as Om Shanti Bawan, Madhuban Courtyard and Diamond Hall that I would be happy to upload under GFDL. I already uploaded one of them to a non-related article [8] just to see how the process worked. Also, you may know Ex-BKs who have pictures they kept and would be willing to release for use here.
Thanks & regards Bksimonb 21:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
OK. Here are the proposed images. Regards Bksimonb 20:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
{{Multiple issues|disputed=March 2008|POV=March 2008}} Bksimonb, Can you place the above tag above the area you are "Totally Disputing" rather than the whole article. This will give us a working point and we can then remove the tags as the clarifications go forth.PEACE TalkAbout 02:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/195.82.106.244_%282nd%29
To anyone who comments on this TalkPage:
PEACE TalkAbout 15:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello.
I am from a Christian family and have observed the Brahmakumaris at a number of interreligious events. I would like to propose the following section on the Brahma Kumaris Spiritual University's view of Christianity.
The BKWSU's view on Christianity
"[Contrary to the beliefs of Christianity], just as far as God the Father was now sharing a body with Brahma Baba, in the same way Christ had entered the body of Jesus. [The BKWSU say] it was Jesus who suffered on the cross, not Christ. Christ, the pure Son of God left the body early and went to take rebirth to help guide his fledgling religion into maturity. [They claim that] many more secrets about Christ and the other religious founders have been revealed by Baba."
The quotation is almost word for word, except for grammatical additions marked above, from page 270 of 'A Reader in New Religious Movements' by George Chryssides and Marget Wilkins. Book number 0-80826-6168-9.
FAITH
Faithinhumanity 20:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I dont think so simon...........the Bible is pretty clear on Christianity and every one knows what they believe ,even if they dont. please answer what TalkAbout asked Green108 14:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I am mainly interested in putting forward a Christian point of view. The article is about the Brahma Kumaris. Rev. Scotland is a professor at a theological college. He specialises in new religions. I am concerned by the teaches about Christ. I do not know about the other religions. Also about the nature of heaven. The Brahma Kumaris say there is nuclear power there and supersonic airplanes. I have another quote for this.
FAITH
Faithinhumanity 20:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. It is from the same book. Page 306. Do I just put my comments in like everbody else? Or do we have to agree?
"The airplanes will form a line in your palaces, and will be very easy to handle. All work will be performed on the basis of atomic energy. It is for you that this last invention of science has beeb emeged. accha.
Just start the plane and you will reach faster than the speed of sound. The airplanes will be so fast that you will reach in the same amount of time as it takes to make a phone call. Therefore, no need for telephones. There will be family sized airplanes as well as individual ones."
What do I do about the other quote. It seems rather cult-like to me. Not to question the leader.
FAITH
Faithinhumanity 20:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to say "hi".
I joined a while ago but I could not post on this page. I see the problems you have been having here. How can I help?
Omshanti.
Bkangel
let's get back to that bit we had in about the failed predictions of Destruction ,any BK that has been in Gyan more than 10 or 15 years knows about them. it seems like Simon has admitted up to the 'famous' 1976 one ,i can tell you that in the murlies they used to predict that Destruction would take place in 50 years and Creation in 50 years and that was taken from when Shiva Bab entered into Brahma Baba..........that changed to 50 to 60 and now we are at 70 years ....also in 2000 there was talk or fearmongering with centres preparing for it. ok; that is the inside view that is being covered up by all this Wikilawyering. Simon knows it ,Mauren knows it ,Jayanti used to read it out of the murlies in the morning for years.. .....by 'wikilawyering' I quote what the BKs have been doing here to control the article;
Abiding by the letter of a policy or guideline while violating its spirit; Asserting that the technical interpretation of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines should override the principles they express; and Misinterpreting policy or relying on technicalities to justify inappropriate actions.
but anyway I finally found the book I knew existed that documented some of this ............if you add it to the others that talk about the chosen few ,i think it sticks now.
"Year 2000 doomed: Mankind destroyed" [Exclusive report on imminent world destruction] by Keerthi Kelegama 1998. ISBN 955-95823-3-X
"This World shattering report on imminent world destruction, examines scientific evidence, reports, prophecies, visions, scriptures, divine revelations etc. Its inevitability frightens the reader and prepares him to escape the destruction. ... How to escape destruction" is the last chapter. 900,000 people will be saved from it and you could be one of them."
Keerthi Kelegama is or was a reporter/editor for the 'Observer and Sunday Observer', state-owned premier newspaper company established 1918 in Sri Lanka and biggest selling english newspaper. its not a taboid.............what makes it more important is he says......
"I discussed with Dr. Nirmala Kajaria, Regional Director of Brahmakumari Raja Yoga Centres in Australia, New Zealand and Asia Pacific on matters connected with this book. She gave me her blessings to write this book for the benefit of the people. She wrote to me from Singapore and gave me encouragement."
Keerthi Kelegama has given evidence before the Presidential Commission, was National Organiser of the Union of Journalists in Sri Lanka and active member of the Free Media Movement. He has had books published by the Bar Association of Sri Lanka carrying the messages of the Chief Justice of Sri Lanka and The Netherlands ambassador, the latter sponsored the printing.
"The world destruction is impending, almost imminent. Religions, scientific research and reports etc. etc. confirm it. Christians believe that the world's end would take place almost immediately while Hindu-oriented Brahmakumaris who runs over thousand Raja yoga meditation centres throughout the world, declare emphatically that the time is now ripe for the world destruction to take place. The Christians belief of imminent world destruction is based on some signs which the Holy bible speaks of, heralding the world destruction. Prophet Mohammed also talked of the emergence of major and minor signs for the destruction to take place which are now apparent.
...
Brahmakumaris say that the world destruction takes place in every 5000 years and that 5000 years have already passed after the previous destruction. Soon the new world order would be started with 900,000 people after destroying the rest.
...
The year 2000 is very crucial, records an end of a historical millennium, and the 20th century has produced unimaginably vast technological and scientific development threatening the nature itself. "
so ,there you have 500 years, imminent and 900,000 like this topic used to say before the Bks took it out as unverified. more ,quote:
Brahmakumaris World Spiritual University affiliated to the United Nations Department of Public Information as a non-governmental organisation teaches that in every 5000 years world destruction takes place and now is the time for it. ... World destruction is also part of the drama. That is why it is taking place regularly Kalpa after Kalpa that means in every 5000 years.
...
examining the facts and evidence before me, I could fearlessly declare that "year 2000 will be doomed and mankind annihilated." Read my research work and you will be convinced It is necessary to bring this vital fact of imminent world destruction to the knowledge of the broad masses. Those who believe and the chosen, may follow the divine instructions, found in this book too, in order that they may be saved from the destruction.
...
Brahmakumaris also expect the world destruction to take place immediately followed by the birth of Krishna once again. Brahmakumari devotees who went to their headquarters in Madhuban, Rajasthan, India, in December last year, were told that time is very short. Even those who hold fixed deposits in banks maturing in the year 2000 would not be able withdraw them. They were instructed to withdraw them at the end of this year. However what a top figure of Brahmakumaris want me to write in this book is that in a very short time, the destruction would begin.
...
Lord Shiva take possession of her [Gulzar] at stipulated times and the knowledge passed on through her, is given out to the Brahmakumari devotees calling it "Murali" almost every day at their centres, since the commencement of their movement in 1937. Devotees listen to them in rapt attention, it being God's word especially given to them.
...
Some time back in Brahmakumari Muralis said quoting Lord Shiva that to begin with one news paper would first write about the world destruction and then all the other papers would follow. This is the beginning and gradually more and more news would be repeatedly carried in books papers TVs, and Radios, more than all, by word of mouth till such time it would reach all the people when the definite coming events would become common knowledge.
...
Those with a far-reaching intellect who have achieved the blessing of all powers through Yoga and so on, wherever they may be, any suffering will be transformed into pinpricks. In other words, they will be safe. Most of the people see only the destruction but for those who are ready, they only see the establishment of a new kingdom, heaven on earth.
...
There must be 900,000 pure souls who are ready to take over the new world order (Golden Age) before the destruction would begin. When the Golden Age [Sath Yug] comes after the world destruction, it would only be heaven on earth. People there would literally be deities. But again after another five thousand years they would deteriorate into present levels of morality by going through said four Yugs
...
A celibate to lead a house hold life is quite difficult. They should be vegetarians and not eating onions and garlic which promotes sex. Others who eat these stuff only pretend to be celibates. It is biologically impossible to eat non vegetarian foods especially with onions and garlic and remain celibate. They have to commit perversions at least.
...
Brahmakumari even conduct workshops for their devotees on the golden age that was to come. How it functions. About the rulers of the golden age and what were the governing principles then and so on, on the basis of godly knowledge granted to them by Lord Shiva through Prajapitha Brahma or Sister Gurusal which are called Murlies
...
Colombo Brahmakumari Centre plans to erect a hall before June 14, 1998, which could accommodate at least 500 people. Purpose is more than holding meetings, they wanted to accommodate their devotees when the destruction begins. Because they know very well that Almighty God would protect these centres.
...
In one Murali of Brahmakumaris, Lord Shiva also said that he would afford a vision of good and bad acts each person has committed before the destruction.
...
Fact remains that wars too form a part of the destruction. People might not like to call it destruction instead it may be called setting up the foundation to establish the new world order. Brahmakumaris who are basically responsible for spreading this message have been inculcated with this knowledge by Parajapitha Brahama who was the founder of their movement. He did so on the instruction of Almighty God himself. About 900,000 people who take over the new world are picked from those who lead pure life. At present the number of people ready to commence the Golden Age is only 400,000 to 500,000.
...
If each of them could help one more to evolve like himself to be pure, celibate and god- loving who is constantly in remembrance of God, then one year or so is enough for the destruction to begin. Pure souls who have died would also return once the new world order is established.
...
New world would be established only in India and the destruction could begin its beginning too from India. Brahmakumaris' founder Guru Prajapitha Barama, became aware of the destruction through Almighty God himself who came to reside in his body and spoke through him over the world destruction, the liberation of the soul, and soul world and heaven etc. since 1937. Brahmakumari centres established throughout the world give out this message and also instruct people of what action they should take before such calamity.
...
Lord Shiva appears in Sister Gurzal on certain days for one or two hours when Brahmakumari devotees of Shiva remain in respectful silence in their centres. Some goes to Madhuban to see Lord Shiva who is in the body of Sister Gurusal. Accordingly Brahmakumaris dole out the Shiva-given knowledge to the devotees which is called Murali.
...
the chapters are on Warning before previous destruction, How Atlantis civilisation destroyed, Why world's end necessary, Importance of India, New World Order - Golden Age, How to escape destruction and so on.....................
i can tell you this is how it is ,the is the truth , these are the teachings and this captures the vibe ,especially with the bharatwasis. i have no interest in quibbling over which part of it to use or so on ,...............but I think that is is clear enough to put back the bits the Bks took out. YOU GOT DESTRUCTION, YEAR 2000, 900,000, BKS BEING TOLD TAKE MONEY OUT, and so on. there is a load more and it all confirms what the murlies and senior sisters were teaching. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Green108 ( talk • contribs) 13:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC).
it verifies the 900,000 for the start of the golden age , and the birth of krishna. as Bks you know this is what is taught as "fact", now we have the citation. so they can go back in. it correllates with the chosen few spoken about the other authors. likewise 'heaven in India'
so do we agree those are now verified facts ? i cannot see how they can be contentious , they are facts.
as far as destruction goes what classes as a "press release" brahma baba writing to king george of england (adi dev) ? was brahma baba too emotional or not good enough for you appledell ? why would a press release be considered a better reliable source than an independent third party that has investigated the BKWSU ? you are contradicting simon request for verifiable sources. Green108 21:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
.........................according to your agenda as a bk. its just your point of view. the gentleman's credentials are good and he has reported the way it was. if you are going to cut things out ,appledell dont make misleading statements in the summary Green108 22:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
so is there any argument about the 900,000 figure being the one Baba gives? Green108 23:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
at the time Liz wrote her book you could say she was a Bk, or part-time Bk, and was still married to Neville Hodgkinson........a very important Bk. as such i think that any quote from her should be discounted because of an obvious bias. i took out appledells contribution also because every cycle time religion believes life goes on.
tell me , why is it OK for you as a Bk to put in a quote..........and one from another Bk............when it is not OK for for a non-BK to put in a quotation from a respected professional journalist?
i am serious..................why? Green108 22:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
liz's book is sold by the Brahma Kumaris Information Service ,and the admins said no Bk publications. that is what simon says.
on the BKs page it says........."A personal account of the birth and growth of a powerful spiritual organisation. "
how could it be personal is she was not involved? she got involved with the Bks in 1981 ,this is a conflict of interest.
you ignored my question again................why is it OK to use a book by a BK supporter writing a personal account when it is not OK to use a quote from a non-BK journalist? Green108 14:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
oh.....and I want to add , it says on Liz's website that she writes for "Sunday People, Daily Mail and Sun". that makes her a ,very tabloid journalist.
i really dont want to get into get into word twisting debates......how many books does the BK Publications BKIS sell by nonBks? liz was a sort of Bk ,she just could not keep it up her relationship with Neville makes her too close to be objective. Green108 03:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
like i say below...........whats a Bk and when do you start and stop being a Bk? there is no official membership. they were still married when Neville came into gyan werent they? why did they divorce? liz used to dress up in white , sit on the guddi and get special attention from dadi , come to programs and so on........is that more or less a Bk than a hindi that comes once a week on sunday? why was she given unlimited access to the seniors when even junior Bks cannot when they are having problems? unfortunately that does not guarantee impartial truth. she a journalist writes for The Sun and The People that puts her in a different league from academics Green108 09:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear All, Just wanted to drop by and say "hello" to my wikipedia brothers and sisters on my way back from Madhuban. That "history hall" is filled with such an uplifting atmosphere that you got to be dead not to feel it...Similarly but not quite the same, are the vibrations around Baba"s room in GCH, London. Had some subtle experiences with God, which I am sure will nourish me for the rest of this year...Not a place like Madhuban in the whole world, I am sure. Not even the vibrations in Macchu Picchu, comes close. Accha... Blessings from the heart, avyakt7 09:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Allegations of disruptive editing have been made. Unfortunately the form of article probation put in place by the Arbitration Committee does not allow direct action against disruptive editors (other than the banned 195 editor). I have asked the Committee to review the situation; you may wish to make a comment here as well. (Be reasonably brief and please don't argue over content) Thatcher131 15:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
i just wanted to clear this up one up for once and for all , the Bks have said that murlies are not or have never been for sale or available to the public.........whatever.
then why did this one have an ISBN number?
The Spiritual Powers of the Soul: extracts from Shiva Baba's Murlis, Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya,1999, ISBN 0-9587230-8-7
i have a couple of others...........
the Song Divine II God The Supreme speaking with the Angel Brahma to his Brahmin Children in Madhuban during the 1979-80 Season and Avyakt Bapdada 1987-1988
these were sold and circulated as service to non-bk and you can still buy them now online now if you look , if anyone wants them i might even send you mine ,so that does end that conversation?
Green108 04:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
(re-indenting)
Stephan Nagel has published four murlis in his 1999 German language book. Andries 21:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Bksimonb, I will let you and the others deal with Shankar Party, as I noted that the infogami is closed (dried up all the comments that I could research...darn)due to spamming by them. So, I would not want to show up here and find the Talk Page filled with that. Besides, I don't really know that they have provided enough evidence as to a relationship with the BKs. So, have fun with that one.PEACE TalkAbout 18:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
i almost done putting back what the Bks took out because they said there were no citations.........the lack of citations was the only reason to remove them, the refences are pukka but they need put into the right form. I dont know if someone else can help with this. Green108 07:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Thats wot I did and they kept putting back in just cos it was me. I rather liked the sound of the spirit delivering a massage through the medium. LOL!! Shortskirtlonglegs
patanjali raja yoga is mental too and not about physical exercise.............best leave that for the raja yoga page Green108 22:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
i changed the date to match the new citations i have provided..............its not really clear exactly which date should be used ,as Om Mandli could actually be 1937 or 1938 , will anyone check the originals? Green108 16:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is the following sentence in the section controversies?
Most people will of course treat such a statement with skepticism, but from my reading of Babb's "Redemptive Encounters" it is simply part of the faith and it is not an especially controversial belief. Andries 19:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
andries...........bro , the quote is in the controversial section not because there is any controversy the Bks believe it...........there is none........but because of the belief itself
the Bks believe that for the first 2500 out of the last 5000 human being made babies without sex ,and that starting from about now.........they will start doing so again
it has to be now and not in 30 year times when the golden age starts because by now all krishna and the other golden aged souls should be getting born
if that is not a little controversial then i will have some of whatever you are drinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Green108 09:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
its fine as it is...............its a controversy , your period is of no interest to this topic
id just be careful in the meanwhile that simon or appedell do not try and get you pregnant by the power of thought because they need loads of baby krishnas to be born right now in order to make the golden age Green108 05:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Andries 18:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand the following sentence because the atomic bomb was a secret unitl 1945. Can somebody please explain here or in the article?
Andries 21:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
it was all made up at a later date ,none of it is true.......its all based on the publicity material the Bks churn out , they just wanted to make kirpalani look like arjuna from the bhagadvad gita.....it is correct that the heads on the cats were roosevelt and stalin because they thought that world war II was the end of the world........then around 1950.......then they had to change later etc.........unless the bk know something we do not the russian did not even have nuclear bombs in 1945!!!!!!!!!
looking at the older material from the 30s and 40s there is no mention of muclear bombs.........it is "gas" they were worried about
you might be right that we should make it clearer that this is what the Bks say now but it was not what the Bks said then , the history has all been re-written by the bkwsu Green108 10:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
i asked a reasonable question because Indian Bks keep coming on and deleting any reference to the PBKs........now even the Western Bks are deleting references to that on this discussion page http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3ABrahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University&diff=126805018&oldid=126765913
it was a reasonable question ,we know what is going on between the Bks and Pbks.......the beatings and the banishment...........it is relates to the article and has been going on forever
those Bks are out of order , do we need to lock the article again to stop them?
the Bk team also cut out another users question..........here http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3ABrahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University&diff=126701898&oldid=123756677 its censorship Green108 16:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
for accuracy , the other BK editor gunvanth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Gunvanth was a recently created single user account which would also have been stopped if the article was locked.
simon , if you have a problem with an issue ,i think it is best to request an admin to look into it and allow them to make neutral changes.............you and Appledall are a Bks and you at least are a member of the BKWSU IT Team..............as such you have a conflict of interest , the policy states;
you should avoid or exercise great caution when:
editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with
participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors
avoid breaching relevant policies and guidelines, especially neutral point of view, attribution, and autobiography'
Green108 01:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
in the article it says that after 1952 the Bks started offering the seven day course...........but in her letter to mahatma gandhi of 25 april 1939, om radhe invites him for one
the received history is not true again...........can any Bk provide accurate references here? when did the 7 day course start?
also reading all the stuff they wrote about Prajapati God Brahma and the original paintings with no mention of shiva...............when did god shiva actually enter into the picture? again ,accurate references please
does the Bkwsu still have these original english language "Divine Decrees" from the 30s and 40s in print? Green108 03:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
original research states ,"Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source"
no one is interpreting anything...........if it is a simple matter of reading a date and being able accurately reference other sources then it is perfectly acceptable
the problem with all of the secondary and tertiary sources others are using is that they are not actually historical studies but research on some other aspect of the Bks which have only mentioned its history in passing and depending on publicity or propagandic material from the Bkwsu without checking original sources........no we are able to identify without interpretation exactly Green108 01:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
It's disappointing that there are a few misleading sentences in the article with refs/citations that turn out to not support what is written. I'll be amending them in time. However, can I start with this sentence under the section of God in the article:
"Between 1939 and 1949 the organisation stated that Lekhraj Kirpalani was thought to be the God". This is then cited to a Karachi court paper, which says:
"The garb of religion is used to cover Dada Lekhraj's activities. He knows nothing of religion and has never practised any. His cult furthers the object he has in view. He is God, the members of the Om Mandli to whom he imparts Gian become Gods; a God can commit no sin............they cannot sin", 'Brahma-Kumari Radhe, Om Mandli & the Om Nivas and their suppression, by application of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908' 1939, Pharmacy Printing Press, ISBN: B00089UWHE p 36 quoting the Karachi Court papers.
I'll allow 7 days for a reasonable response before I make any changes. Appledell 18:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
These letters apparently from Om Radhe (I have my doubts about their veracity - but that's irrelevent) are primary sources, even if they are genuine. They can't be used as refs/citations in a wikipedia article. I'll remove the related wording in the article they are attached to, unless there are any reasoned objections. I'll allow 7 days before I make any changes. Thanks Appledell 18:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't know what the official BK position of them is, but I don't have a problem with them being in the article - I agree, they are of historical interest in the article. Would have been nice if they could have been discussed here first, but I appreciate that is not the practice of some editors. Appledell 10:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
give it a rest appledell and let us have a bit of om shanti here
as above.......are you Bks actually acquiring copies of the many papers and published book we are providing here? ,we cannot have a discussion if you are not reading the referenced material
it feels to me that the two of you are just sitting there trying to wiki-lawyer your way to control what is and is not on the discussion page and the topic and gaming the system through endless complaints about others? look ,another one....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Association_of_Members%27_Advocates/Requests/March_2007/Bksimonb
why cant the Bkwsu just be open about what it has in its archives or library ?
Green108 18:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
LOL!!!!!!!! the bks have insidiously re-written their history just like they are re-writing the murlis too. the cats out the bag!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets face it 1932 to 1949. Brahma Baba and the BKWSU were not exactly fast learners. So when did they re-write things to include Shiva Baba!!!!!!!! Cos this blows the official version of the history out of the window, and the official historians and all the academics that have parroted their PR, init!!!!! So where are your citations now ŘBKs!!!!!!
Shortskirtlonglegs 16:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
is this the way the Bkwsu tries to build up a case against non-Bks....................Bk-haters now , isn't that a bit like someone on the israel page calling anyone that posts difficult but objective comments a jew-hater? please stop this
i ask you again ,why cant the Bkwsu just be open about what it has in its archives or library?
Green108 20:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
because not all jews are political zionists..........not all jews support the political state of israel ,so your metaphor does not work simon. i am being very specific........the leadership of the Bkwsu and those Bks that take Shrimat from them do not repesent the opinions of all Bks and yet they cover up and supress information
its a bit off the subject but why cant israel be open about its nuclear weapons and human rights abuses?...........why couldnt the Bkwsu be open about its Nuclear powered "transformation" and its abuses? it works
i ask you again simon , here we have serious re-writes............why cant the Bkwsu just be open about what else it has in its archives or library? Green108 17:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
simon , i see you reported and got banned a user called "Reachouttrust"
[25]...........is it any coincidence that the Reachout Trust have pages exposing the Bkwsu????? all they did was change an edit of yours from "claims to inform" to "inform"
[26]. isnt that a bit of a conflict of interest.............are you trying to have me banned too ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Association_of_Members%27_Advocates/Requests/March_2007/Bksimonb........it would have been nice to have just welcomed them as a newcomer and offered help.
these are your own words about me to date , there are probably more elsewhere on the wikipedia but i can be bothered finding them ,i think they make my point , "edit waring............war of words......biased and aggressive......more aggressive bouts......anti editor.......pushing negative quotes.........onslaught.........argue aggressively.......make accusations........POV warrior..........negative pressure........biased, misinformative attack.................very agressive and attacking.............muppet "
if you are trying to set me up like avyakt7 set .244 up , why should i reply to you? Green108 22:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
do you want me to respond in some way you can then report or use as evidence against me as above ? if you have a conflict of interest with the organisation you are surrendered to then you should be very careful in what you do and say
where are the Bkwsu's citations proving when they changed gyan to say that shiva had come.......it must be after 1950 because i have another one that proves in 1949 they still believed in prajapati god brahma and there was no mention of shiva Green108 16:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
james...........please read the notice at the top of the page , i will answer you on either your own or my own , or the AMA case...........you chose which
Green108 01:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Although I do not with to distract from this interesting dialogue. May I suggest to new links. I do not subscribe to Islam. But they have a closer relationship to Christianity through the Abrahamic tradition. I discovered two links from the websie of the Islamic Voice newspaper published in Karnataka. India.
http://www.islamicvoice.com/november.98/dialogue.htm http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.99/dialogue.htm
Are these acceptable? Faithinhumanity 19:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I am sure that this is not the place to discuss how a Christain family reconciles your current faith. Is the link acceptable as an Islamic point of view on general ground then?
Faithinhumanity 17:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I have taken out some unsourced info in the critisism section. It is not a good idea to have critisism in the article that may be false. I am not saying that it is false though. If you can find a source feel free to add it back and make sure to post the source. Have a nice week and God bless:)-- James, La gloria è a dio 10:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)