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Does anyone else have a copy of On the Front Line of the Culture War: Recent Attacks on the Boy Scouts of America, written by William A. Donohue, published by The Claremont Institute, ISBN 0-930783-20-4 ? There are good summaries for the legal cases brought up dealing with homosexuality and atheism. Donohue is (was?) a Professor and Chairman of the Department of Sociology at La Roche College. The pamphlet (which is about 40 pages or so, total) also has an excellent Churchill quote that might be used elsewhere here: "It [the Scouting movement] speaks to every heart its message of duty and honor: "Be Prepared" to stand up faithfully for Right and Truth, however the winds may blow." This same quote is cited on many pages about scouting, as I quickly verified through Google. -- JohnDBuell 16:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the Scout Law is much more open to interpretation, but still requires belief in something. The key point there is "A Scout is Reverent" Once again the interpretation of that is left to the Scout, his parents, and religious advisors, if any. While the official explanation is "A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others", that doesn't have to be memorized nor is actually part of the Law. It's the individual Scout who determines how he is meeting it.
Incidently, the simple beauty of BP's concept for the Scout Law is that tells you what you should aspire towards, not what you can't do as most other laws do.
Wikipedia uses the "neutral point of view", which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view; presenting each point of view accurately; providing context for any given point of view, so that readers understand whose view the point represents; and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view." It means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics. When a conflict arises as to which version is the most neutral, declare a cool-down period and tag the article as disputed; hammer out details on the talk page and follow dispute resolution. (See: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and also Wikipedia:Five pillars)
Considering that the original article back in November looked liked it was written by lawyers from the ACLU, I would say things have improved a lot!
I've seen the comment that there is no substantial controversy within the BSA itself, it's people outside the BSA that have a problem. It's more accurate to say that people within the BSA who want a change in policy keep quiet and those on the outside are there primarily because they were excluded from the BSA by their policies.-- Jagz 18:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Not really true. Are you currently in Scouting? As a volunteer Commissioner, I know hundreds of Scout leaders in the organization. We don't walk around in fear of expressing our opinions but neither do we go running to press. Look how few of the 110 million members of BSA have ever been kicked out. Our major objective is usually getting more leaders and kids, not getting rid of them!
While I wouldn't say there is "no" controversy, it's not really anywhere near the top of most Scouters' agenda. If we ever think about it, some of us have differing positions about the homosexual issue. Many feel that the defacto "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy (similar to the US government's own military!) actually in use in most councils when coupled with the YPP is adequate. Virtually all Scouters agree with keeping the Scout Oath as it is. We tend to regard the religious concern as a "non-issue", since "God" in Scouting terms already means whatever the individual decides it does for themselves.
I also wouldn't be suprised that the BSA position on homosexual leaders evolves slowly over time, especially if the US Congress ever amends the Federal Civil Rights Act to make sexual preference a protected federal civil right. That would have been a better venue to approach the issue than pressuring BSA directly and getting it to dig in its heels on the issue. (You can already see the slow change in the position statements about homosexuals as members (not leaders) over the decade.)
I suspect some of the outside activists who got involved when these issues heated up in the early ninties expected BSA to cave like other organizations. They didn't understand that Scouting is VERY traditional and that change comes slowly. Most adults in Boy Scouting are VERY proud that their kids repeat the same oath that their fathers and grandfathers did and that some units have been in continuous existance for seventy years. (Contrast that with GSUSA who did cave quickly but also had previously changed their oath a few times and where very few individual units last more than a few years). Trying to externally force BSA to change and then trashing the Boy Scouts just gets a lot of folks who might have been more sympathetic riled up and makes it harder to do so internally. The fact that BSA stuck to it's guns all the way to the Supreme Court and then WON probably really irritated "progressives" and led to some of the current issues, but it wasn't much of a suprise to folks who knew the organization. But that's all water over the dam now.
The point is that these issues are truly minor compared to our day to day concern of running units, activities and recruiting youth and leaders. We really don't have time nor interest to engage in witchhunts or tilting at windmills. We do object to outsiders, who for the most part haven't invested years working for the kids, trashing an entire program that has helped millions of kids over miniscule issues that affect only a few. It's a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Attempting to squash a Jamboree for 35,000 kids is a good example. The Senate agreed 98-0. When did the Senate ever vote on ANYTHING 98-0? If folks want to get endorsement for their non-traditional behaviors and beliefs, then find another icon of virtue to smash. Things might change in BSA, but it will be glacial and the GREATER the outside pressure, the SLOWER it will be.- GCW 3 Feb
BSA should consider resigning from the World Organization of the Scout Movement (WOSM) and either join another existing international Scouting organization, starting a new international Scouting organization, or stay independent. WOSM essentially mandates religion or spirituality instead of just encouraging it or remaining neutral and letting each National Scout Organization make their own choice.-- Jagz 06:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
As a member of WOSM, BSA must include a reference to "God" in the Scout Oath; this is related to several controversies discussed in the article including that of the future of the National Scout Jamboree. If BSA was no longer a member of WOSM, it could have a non-spiritual Scout oath.-- Jagz 08:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
...is NOT to quibble about personal ideals or feelings. Talk pages exist to discuss the formation of their articles. I wont say I'm not guilty of getting mixed up in (sometimes heated) discussions that involve personal beliefs, values, morals, opinions, politics or whatever else, because I have, and 3 of my comments can be seen above on this very page. But I plan to stop it, now. This is rediculous. There are chatrooms and message boards all over the Internet for discussing personal opinions like the ones expressed on this talk page. If thats how you need to express yourself, then go there and do it. If you want to contribute to encyclopedia articles in a constructive manner, then please stay because we desperately need you.
I'm tired of having to sift through all the opinionated bullshit on this (and other Scouting) talk pages to see if anyone has made a comment regarding the direction/content (or lack there of)/etc. of articles in the Scouting Project, so that I may be of some assistance. Tired of it. Sick of it. I'm here to help write and improve encyclopedia articles, not to get into arguments related to them or to have to read them because they are everywhere instead of talk regarding the article itself. Opinions please go elsewhere, at LEAST to your personal user talk pages. Everything else, please stay, we have some work to do. Agendas are not needed here, researchers and editors are. Thanks, -- Naha| (talk) 04:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I sent an email to SCOUT eh! regarding the accuracy of a couple of statements in the article about Scouts Canada. SCOUT eh! is a group of "registered Scouts Canada members from across Canada dedicated to transforming Scouts Canada into a democratic association". Here is my email and their reply:
>I am from USA. I was hoping you could answer some questions about >Scouts Canada. >I'm working on the Wikipedia article, "Controversies about the Boy >Scouts of America" at > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_Boy_Scouts_of_America. >There are some references to Scouts Canada. Are these statements true >about Scouts Canada?
I'm glad to help. I have done some work on Wikipedia myself. My username is lkmorlan
>1. Since deciding to to admit females, atheists, agnostics, gays, >lesbians, bisexuals, and transsexuals into troops in 1998, Scouts >Canada's membership has dramatically decreased, leading to fiscal >problems.[1] (Was this the reason for the decline in membership?)
Simply, no. Membership decline has been an ongoing problem for decades. In the statistics, there is nothing to distinguish 1998 from any other year. There certainly are fiscal problems now caused by membership decline. See: http://scouteh.ca/resources/2006-02-03-sc_finances.php
The article referenced in the footnote in the article contains many errors and misconceptions and is not a reliable source of information about Scouts Canada.
There are other serious problems with the statement. Let's take them one at a time.
Females: In 1971, Rover Crews (ages 18-26) were given the option of admitting female members. In 1984, this "local option" was extended to Venturers (ages 14-17). In 1992, local option was extended to Beavers (5-7), Wolf Cubs (8-10), and Scouts (11-14). In 1998, local option was removed. From that time, all sections have been required to admit female members. This was the only change of consequence that happened in 1998.
Atheists and agnostics: Religious activities are an almost non-existent part Scouts Canada programs, in practise. Unless an adult is vocally an atheist, they will have no problems in Scouts Canada. Many people who are atheists or agnostics are members, both as youth and adults. The Scouts Canada program contains no Board of Review were youth could be asked about their Duty to God, so this doesn't come up as a issue for them. If a youth member voiced something, this would be dismissed as the youth "still seeking".
I have only heard of one case where a Scouter was dismissed for his religious beliefs. In this case, the Scouter called an open line radio program and made it known that he was an atheist and a Scouter. His District Commissioner revoked his membership and the Scouter accepted this. If it had been fought either internally or at the Human Rights Tribunal, I am confident it would have been over-turned.
Remember that only about one-third of Canadians attend church once a month or more and the number has been falling for decades. Canadian society is not very religious and Scouting has followed the broader trend. Scouts Canada's written policies have not been significantly adjusted in many years. Their is no DRP equivalent. The policies are vague.
Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transsexuals: With the exception of their current general non-discrimination statement, there has never been any official Scouts Canada policy about any of these. It is not reasonable to point to any particular date and say that after this date, gays have been allowed to join. Their acceptance within Scouting mirrors their acceptance within society at large. More below.
>2. Scouts Canada allows homosexuals as members and in leadership >positions, however, individual units can restrict homosexuals. (How >should this sentence be worded?)
Individual units in Scouts Canada may not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. It's both illegal and inconsistent with Scouts Canada policy. I am sure that some individual groups do so anyway, at least in quiet way of making people feel unwelcome. In the case of the Mormons, I understand that Mormon-sponsored groups have all-Mormon leaders, so this takes care of the issue from their perspective.
The entire issue about sexual orientation is much less polarized here then in the US. There is more of a "live and let live" attitude generally. Even the leader of our Conservative Party, which recently won the election, has said that he is not interested in re-opening the debate on same-sex marriage, which was recently made legal in Canada.
Let me know if you have any other questions. --End of email-- Jagz 03:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
With apologies for forgetting to do this earlier, as pointed out by Jagz, I am now posting why I believe this article should be checked for POV.
It seems to me from reading the article, that everything is being expressed from the point of view of everyone else looking at the BSA. There seems to be nothing balancing this pov against the Boy Scouts of America's reason for all these policies.
The article also seems to compare the BSA's policy with those of other organisations, such as Scouting in the UK and Scout Canada. Comparing other organisations is no basis for the issues of the BSA. In my opinion, I think it would be good for this article if the POV of the outside world was balanced against the BSA's own perceptions of these problems, so that the article may be balanced.
I stress it is only my view that the POV of the article is unbalanced, since I nominated it. You are free to discuss this as you please, as always. Thor Malmjursson 02:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC) Thor's Pet Yack
Some are changing the definitions in a way that directly conflicts with The Language of Scouting [2] That is the BSA website.
I went ahead and removed the Definitions section because I couldn't see how most of the definitions were in any way related to the controversy (e.g. "Adult- A person 18 years of age and up, male or female.") (A secondary issues is-- I don't know if we're allowed to copy, verbatim, that much raw copyrighted text from a website-- I think using that much that MIGHT qualify as copyright violation. But that's completely besides the point.)
If there's controversy directly stemming from any of the definitions, by all means, let's discuss it in the article, in prose form.
The "Origins of Standards" section is a bit confusing-- I also added a sentence explaining what I think is the purpose the section-- namely, to demonstrate that principles which led to the controversies are "long-standing and well-established in the history of scouting", not some recent fad. But we really need to explain the controversy before this section can have relevance. - Alecmconroy 04:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I just want to generally say that my take is that this article is very non-neutral point of view. As it stands, this looks like BSA's page ON the controversies-- not Wikipedia's page on the controversies. In many cases, BSA's justifications are listed without even a direct reference to controversial action being justified. Consider-- this article mentions Baden-Powell's views on religion before even describing the controversy about religion.
This isn't to chastise the contributors who have added the excellent info about BSA's justifications-- it's just to say that we all need to do much better job explaining what each controversy is, how it first got raised, what BSA says on the issue, what critics say on the issue, and what the legal / political institutions have said on the issue, and what effects have happened as a result of the controversy.
Since I see the problem more as "This article needs a LOT of work" than just "This article is POV", I also went ahead and added it to Pages Needing Cleanup.
Ask yourself-- if anyone came to the current page with absolutely no knowledge what the controversies were, could they really make heads or tails out of this page, as it stands now?
So, this leads me to ask right out, what are all the controversies. Here's my list, which am I missing:
I'm not sure if the last three two are actually "controversial"-enough to merit mention, but I threw them up there for the purposes of brainstorming. The agnostics/atheist issue and the homosexuals issue can probably be lumped together under a "Membership Criteria Issues" since they share a lot of the legal/political dimensions.
In general, though, this page just needs a big style overhaul. Right now the page consists of mostly snippets of BSA policy and BSA statements-- not a coherent narrative that "tells the story" of the controversies. -- Alecmconroy 04:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Also-- is it NPOV to say "discrimination" with regard to sexual orientation? It's not contested that BSA does that right? saying "unlawful discrimination" or "immoral" discrimination would be WAY inappropriate POV for a lot of reasons (foremost that all courts agree it's "lawful discrimination"). by http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/discrimination , discrimination seems appropriate, but i worry it somehow sounds "too harsh". Is there a better word? I thought about "differential treatment" but that almost implies that gay employess get paid slightly less or something, not are banned outright. - Alecmconroy 11:11, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
This article is getting long, and the length does not come from a deep discussion of a topic but rather the shallow discussion of a number of topics. I think we need to make this a more descriptive sort of disambiguation page. Work with the list of issues and describe them in a paragraph. Then link to individual articles that would be more wiki-ish and on point. -- RSaunders 17:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Another controversy which is not listed (and is not in the wiki article) is the BSA's refusal to recognize a Wiccan religious award, and how the BSA changed the rules after a group of Wiccans met the original requirements. see here Brian Westley 11:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
So, let's say for a minute that we split this into two pages: "Page One" about the Gays & Atheists policy, the reasons for each of the policies, the legal challenges (and their being successfully upheld), the resulting uproar and rallying of support. "Page Two" about this new attempt to deny the scouts access to governmental support, its ongoing legal challenges, yadda yadda yadda. Page One, of course, has to have separate sub-sections explaining the Duty to God values behing the atheism policy and the Morally Straight and Clean values underlying the homosexuality policy. But the litigation is absolutely identical (sometimes down to the same court on the same day), almost all of the "banter" against the scouts addresses both atheism & homosexuality, most of the voices of support equally relates to both, .
So, what's been driving me crazy is: What do we call "Page One". I've been loooking at Wikipedia:Naming conventions and trying to brainstorm a list. Here are just some VERY ROUGH ideas:
Any preferences or other ideas? - Alecmconroy 01:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
The merge proposer didn't post reasons here, so I'll star the discussion. I don't think it should be merged because the group is more than a "Controversy about the BSA". This would be like Merging Citizen's Debate Commission into Controversies about the United States Presidential Debates. I would be fine with merging an article that just talked about one controversy but not articles about notable organizations. savidan (talk) (e@) 16:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
References and links as checked by Linkchecker: [4] --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 02:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Folks, Texas Governor Rick Perry has just come out (Feb 12, 2008) with a book relevant to this page. Consider if/how it should be added. Here's a link to
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help)I learned about this listening to WABC radio, 11AM hour, Feb 21, 2008, interview of Gov. Rick Perry by radio talk show host John R. Gambling. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 03:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The citation used to justify this claim in the article doesn't agree. The text doesn't mention the oath/law at all. Rather, it expresses the view that leadership positions are not appropriate for homosexuals. It may seem like a meaningless distinction, but it is quite different. The relevant text is reproduced below:
A 1978 position statement to the Boy Scouts' Executive Committee, signed by Downing B. Jenks, the President of the Boy Scouts, and Harvey L. Price, the Chief Scout Executive, expresses the Boy Scouts' "official position" with regard to "homosexuality and Scouting":
"Q. May an individual who openly declares himself to be a homosexual be a volunteer Scout leader?
"A. No. The Boy Scouts of America is a private, membership organization and leadership therein is a privilege and not a right. We do not believe that homosexuality and leadership in Scouting are appropriate. We will continue to select only those who in our judgment meet our standards and qualifications for leadership." App. 453-454. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.153.199 ( talk) 23:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
One of the contoversis is about atheists. There is a link to discrimination agansit atheists. Im a member of the BSA and I know that it is private and has the right to self select. So how can it be discrimnation? Plyhmrp ( talk) Plyhmrp
Understandable. Plyhmrp ( talk) Plyhmrp
The recent edit appears to be based on the incorrect view that discrimination is only discrimination if it has been found to be illegal discrimination. Scouts in many other Scouting organizations think that exclusion of homosexuals is immoral discrimination even if it is quite legal to discriminate in this way. Denying membership to atheists is quite clearly discrimination even if again it is quite legal. I'll leave it to US editors however to sort out the best wording. -- Bduke (Discussion) 22:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The BSA's policies have been legally challenged but have not been found to constitute illegal discrimination; as a private organization in the United States they have the right to freedom of association, [5] as determined in Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. [6]
I have removed the paragraph which read
The BSA's policies have been legally challenged but have not been found to constitute illegal discrimination; as a private organization in the United States they have the right to freedom of association
and which, until recently, read
The BSA's policies have been legally challenged but have not been found to constitute illegal discrimination, because as a private organization in the United States they have the Freedom of Assembly guaranteed in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
My understanding is that both those rights are individual rights and, while individuals inside and outside of the BSA organization have those rights, the BSA organization itself does not. Perhaps some judicious rewording can fix this. -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 23:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I've undid my change and added some clarifying cites and a {{ see also}}. -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 20:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Do the Boy Scouts ever do any backup research on the possibility of pedophile priests serving with the organization ? I was reading a few horror stories about pedophile priests, some of them involving the Boy Scouts. [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27539] [7] ADM ( talk) 21:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
The BSA is planning to move their national Jamborees from Fort A.P. Hill (a military center) to their own property, starting in 2013. Should this be mentioned in the section about government support of Jamborees? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian Westley ( talk • contribs) 04:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I love it! The inferrence correlating Scouts Canada "Inclusive" Membership Policy and Membership Size as a comparison to BSA's was originally added to this article by critics of BSA about four years ago when BSA membership had a slight dip. But now that Scouts Canada membership has fallen off the cliff (by it's own admission in it's annual report) while BSA's membership has stayed relatively stable, reference to Scouts Canada membership size in this article is no longer "relevant". We wouldn't want the the facts to get in the way of bias, would we? GCW50 ( talk) 15:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
In the intro, a section reads that girls are prohibited from joining. This is undoubtedly true, but I don't think this belongs in the Controversies section. After all, there is a Girl Scouts organization. Females are also permitted to be on the troop committee, and serve several leadership positions (for instance, my Committee Chairman is a female, as is the treasurer, and a lot of merit badge counselors and other, lesser positions. Should that part be removed? It does seem rather ridiculous; you wouldn't find boys joining the Girl Scouts. Abyssalstudios ( talk) 18:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
ADDITION: "According to the BSA, "The Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs were designed to meet the emotional, psychological, physical, and other needs of boys between the ages of 8 and 14."[27] While the BSA does not admit girls to these programs, the Venturing program is open to young men and women ages 14 through 21." I did not see that last time, but it seems rather redundant. Abyssalstudios ( talk) 18:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I spent several years in scouting up to becoming an eagle scout. I distinctly remember female scouts in uniform as members of other local troops circa 1998-2004. I met several at camps and events. I have heard several times that girls were not excluded from scouting and always believed this to be true. Nonetheless I can find no reference in my handbook or on the internet. Can anyone else confirm/deny definitively? (I am from troop 9, prairielands council in IL) Pinochet (3) ( talk) 17:22, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The issue of BSA allowing only boys to be members is significant on a global level. In almost every other country in the world Scouting has now moved to a situation where males and females have equal access to every position, at all ages, within a single organisation. That Scouting in the USA is different is worth discussing. HiLo48 ( talk) 05:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
This section is based on one source, that covers only the Chicago Area Council. There are no sources showing that this is a National position or that other councils are doing this. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 21:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps regarding other youth organizations, mention should be made of the Masonic youth organizations ( DeMolay, Job's Daughters, and the International Order of Rainbow for Girls). Although not as numerous, they are very widespread in the United States. Like the Boy Scouts, they require a belief in a Supreme Being, but do not have any position on homosexuality in their membership requirements. This is most likely due to the Freemasons themselves, who have no mention of homosexuality in their landmarks.
Their membership, though, it elected by the current members, and it is expected that the boys and girls be "of good character". It also is expected that by joining, members are to accept, at least externally, the tenets of the orders, which tend to emphasize service, citizenship, leadership, and character development.
Masonic methods of inculcation of values rely on ritual. This method of external development, as opposed to personal development, could make the gay question in these organizations less of a controversy.
I have gone through each of these organizations' youth protection program. They each properly emphasized that the danger of sexual abuse comes from unexpected places, and that it is important to "keep the appearances" correct, and not take shortcuts or rely on trust.
I suspect that the Boy Scouts have explicitly banned homosexuals in consequence of the organization's infiltration by a number of pedophiles. Perhaps they are confusing the two. I think the Masonic organizations haven't been as confused. PhilD86 ( talk) 20:41, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually the BSA has said this is not the reason (note they also ban lesbians and some of the male adults caught have been abusing girls in Venturers, they also do not ban homosexuals in Learning for Life), possibly because the evidence for this reason wouldn't stand up in court. The Freemasons and their youth organizations are different because (a) they have never been involved with government to the same degree (no federal charter, no government owned units, no government subsidies) and (b) they are far more explicitly religious in all their rituals. The only youth organizations that the Boy Scouts could truly be compared with would be groups like Campfire, Girl Scouts, 4-H. -- Erp ( talk) 05:17, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
"Position on illegal aliens" wtf? IAmTheCoinMan ( talk) 04:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
This article warrants inclusion into the Homophobia category, the reasoning behind which is clearly self evident and adequately sourced. Since the article has achieved Featured Article status (with the category included) then removing the category will be considered vandalism. I'm sure that there are some editors who do not agree with the categorisation (and even the term "homophobia" itself), and you are entitled to your opinion, but please familiarise yourselves with the accepted definition of homophobia and its uses on Wikipedia before contemplating a pointless edit war. Thank you. 80.41.80.89 ( talk) 05:00, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I strongly suggest removing the featured status until the neutrality issues have been addressed. Is this article a joke? It's full of weasel words: some argue that, has been criticized by many, has been questioned by some... all the way, nearly in every sentence of the article. Could you possibly imagine what will happen to the neutrality and factual accuracy in Wikipedia, if we continued editing like this? Someone who hates or disagrees with something, goes on searching the web for any ultra-liberal on anarchist blog even with less than a few dozen readers which attacks it. Now it's possible to link it as a source, and write: it is controversial, as it has been criticized by XY. Don't misunderstand me: if a really well known source criticized it, we can include it. But not in this propaganda style present in this article. Now the pattern is this: "XY criticized them that ...... . They answered that ...... This, however, is wrong and evil and unjust". Could we do it a bit more neutral and less propagandistic please?
I would like to make clear that I'm not a Scout and I never was. However, I think it is unacceptable to demonize an organization like this because of its membership criteria:
This article is an essay, pure and simple. The fact that I and a lot of other people think this is a good topic for discussion does not change the fact that it is an essay. This kind of thing is EXACTLY why I think wikipedia is ultimately a farce. There is certainly a place in the world for this kind of analysis, and maybe wikipedia actually IS the place, but in my opinion that makes wikipedia, by definition, not an encyclopedia. I really hope the "powers that be" at wikipedia come to terms with this sooner or later and stop pretending that any essay or discussion topic, as long as it has a bunch of footnotes attached, can automatically be called an "encyclopedia article." 18:03, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
You missed their point. They basically said that, from start to finish, this "article" is just an attack against BSA disguised as as an article.
The article claims that the oath has remained unchanged since 1911, and has the following text:
My memory, from when I was a Scout in the Seventies, has only the first three lines. I can't seem to find my BSA manual to check this. The citation for "unchanged" seems to be a legal case, which is a bit suspicious. Can anyone check on this? -- Trovatore ( talk) 21:31, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I reverted the change made by GCW50 [8] here [9]. The laws etc involved are clearly about stopping organizations from practicing what is considered discriminatory by the drafters of said laws etc. Whether or not other people agree and whether or not they are legally allowed to do so is somewhat irrelevant. I'm pretty sure most of these are not blanket laws etc that stop organisations restricting membership. E.g. it's likely many of them having nothing on age discrimination. Thinking of the issue above, I doubt many stop an organisation from restricting membership to citizens. And I'm pretty sure MENSA is allowed restrict by "IQ". And a coal miners unions (for example) is allowed to restrict itself to coal miners. While this is mostly irrelevant, I should add that GCW50 appears to be mistaken anyway. From what I can tell the US Supreme Court has not yet really ruled on these laws. They've ruled the scouting membership policies aren't unconstitutional and that it's unconstitutional compel the scouts to accept a LGBT member however they haven't ruled that you can't punish or restrict access to organisations who don't accept such members or otherwise practice forms or discrimination forbidden by whatever state/country/whatever. The cases mention in Boy Scouts of America membership controversies#Recent litigation don't provide much help either if anything, they suggest it may be okay. There are ongoing cases which may provide additional clarity and additional federal laws as mentioned in the article, so in some cases it may come down to a federal vs state issue I guess Nil Einne ( talk) 14:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The word "Discrimination" has so many meanings that it is virtually useless. Anytime there is any condition placed on anything it is technically "discrimination". But a second meaning has more negative connotations, which is engaging in legally prohibited discrimination. And so the word game is that whenever a condition is (legally) placed that you don't like, you use the first definition to say that it is such, and falsely imply the second definition to try to make it sound negative.
North8000 ( talk) 16:52, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it's not a very helpful word. There are your two extreme meanings, but there is also a whole spectrum of meanings in between, such as immoral, unethical, very old-fashioned, or just plain stupid discrimination. With Scouting being a global organisation, providing other very effective models with which to compare, many outside Scouting in the USA see the discrimination it practices, while mostly being legal according to US law, to be in one of the categories I've just listed. BSA is probably one of the most conservative incarnations of Scouting in the world. I do, and I feel it's worth discussing. HiLo48 ( talk) 20:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
The defacto situation with BSA USA is that it is full of atheists, (I know many that are also Eagle Scouts and in all types of adult leadership positions) and the few person (of the millions in BSA) that have run afoul of the BSA have been just atheists who were out to make an atheist point. It's similar for homosexuals, except with smaller numbers because with an average age of about 10 or 11 years old for youth members, most scouts are too young to be any kind of "sexuals". The reality is that BSA only bars AVOWED homosexuals from senior leadership positions. In short, it lets all youth in except those who seek to make BSA a battleground or platform for their views in favor of societal normalization of homosexuality and atheism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.24.138.102 ( talk) 19:24, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I think that what I already said most accurately characterizes the situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.24.138.102 ( talk) 22:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
First, my comments are to try to convey how it actually is in BSA rather than to score points. That is that a YOUTH does does not have to hide homosexuality or atheism to remain a Scout. To have a senior leadership role (e.g. adult or near adult)a low key (but not hidden) atheist has about a 0% chance of losing that role, and a low key (but not hidden) homosexual has about a 1% chance of losing that role. But a homosexual or atheist adult who shouts such from the rooftops (i.e seeks to make BSA a battleground or platform for their views in favor of societal normalization of homosexuality and atheism.) has about a 99% chance of losing that role. Of the (I'd guess) 20,000,000 people who have gone through BSA, I think that this has happened to 2 people(both adults) for homosexuality and 1 person (and that was indirectly......was actually denied admission because the adult refused to sign the application) for atheism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.24.138.102 ( talk) 15:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Answering your suggestion question, I don't think that this article has much chance of becoming informative vs. a misleading salvo fired from one side of a culture war. However, if an attempt were to be made, I would suggest the following:
1. Remove all references that are just to self-statements by anti-scout groups and anti-scout web sites 2. Where there are challenged or controversial statements: 2A Remove any of those that do not cite references 2B Where references are cited, check whether or not the cited references supports the statment. Where they do not, remove the statement. This would cause a large amount of changes in this article.
3. In the discussion section, challenge folks from both sides in this editorial "article" develop a list of youth and adults who were dropped, denied admission, or denied leadership positions in the two most salient main "culture war" areas (homosexuality and atheism). The result should be summarized and taken as the most accurate "picture" of the BSA situation in these areas. And post this summary as the lead paragraph in those sections. Alternatively, find an objective factual article which has done this already, and post a summary of it's findings in the lead paragraph, with references to that article. (sort of a forest and the trees situation) (BTW I am both an unwilling atheist and a long time Scouter though both it's 50th and 100th anniversary and every year in between)
4. Remove the "homophobia" classification. Nearly all common use of that word is contrary to it's technical definition, and is merely a battle tactic used by persons on one side of the societial-normalization-of-homosexuality culture war to mis-characterize those merely holding the opposite viewpoint of having a "phobia" or of exhibiting "hatred" of the individuals involved. This article commits that same offense by (with no basis) claiming that category.
Get the scout-hating folks that wrote this culture war salvo to agree to the the above before proceeding so that it doesn't get mired down in editing wars.
The areas covered by this piece are an area where there is mis-information and lack of information. An objective article (unlike this one in it's current state) would be very useful, although I do not hold out too much hope for that happening.
75.24.138.102 ( talk) 14:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
You are right. I apologize for the overgeneralization. That said, while there there may be different opinions regarding BSA's practices, it could be considered a matter of fact (rather than opinion) as to what those practices actually are. My suggestion for article improvement was to have it give an accurate view of the latter, and that such would be a change from the current article.
75.24.138.102 ( talk) 19:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Does anyone else have a copy of On the Front Line of the Culture War: Recent Attacks on the Boy Scouts of America, written by William A. Donohue, published by The Claremont Institute, ISBN 0-930783-20-4 ? There are good summaries for the legal cases brought up dealing with homosexuality and atheism. Donohue is (was?) a Professor and Chairman of the Department of Sociology at La Roche College. The pamphlet (which is about 40 pages or so, total) also has an excellent Churchill quote that might be used elsewhere here: "It [the Scouting movement] speaks to every heart its message of duty and honor: "Be Prepared" to stand up faithfully for Right and Truth, however the winds may blow." This same quote is cited on many pages about scouting, as I quickly verified through Google. -- JohnDBuell 16:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the Scout Law is much more open to interpretation, but still requires belief in something. The key point there is "A Scout is Reverent" Once again the interpretation of that is left to the Scout, his parents, and religious advisors, if any. While the official explanation is "A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others", that doesn't have to be memorized nor is actually part of the Law. It's the individual Scout who determines how he is meeting it.
Incidently, the simple beauty of BP's concept for the Scout Law is that tells you what you should aspire towards, not what you can't do as most other laws do.
Wikipedia uses the "neutral point of view", which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view; presenting each point of view accurately; providing context for any given point of view, so that readers understand whose view the point represents; and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view." It means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics. When a conflict arises as to which version is the most neutral, declare a cool-down period and tag the article as disputed; hammer out details on the talk page and follow dispute resolution. (See: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and also Wikipedia:Five pillars)
Considering that the original article back in November looked liked it was written by lawyers from the ACLU, I would say things have improved a lot!
I've seen the comment that there is no substantial controversy within the BSA itself, it's people outside the BSA that have a problem. It's more accurate to say that people within the BSA who want a change in policy keep quiet and those on the outside are there primarily because they were excluded from the BSA by their policies.-- Jagz 18:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Not really true. Are you currently in Scouting? As a volunteer Commissioner, I know hundreds of Scout leaders in the organization. We don't walk around in fear of expressing our opinions but neither do we go running to press. Look how few of the 110 million members of BSA have ever been kicked out. Our major objective is usually getting more leaders and kids, not getting rid of them!
While I wouldn't say there is "no" controversy, it's not really anywhere near the top of most Scouters' agenda. If we ever think about it, some of us have differing positions about the homosexual issue. Many feel that the defacto "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy (similar to the US government's own military!) actually in use in most councils when coupled with the YPP is adequate. Virtually all Scouters agree with keeping the Scout Oath as it is. We tend to regard the religious concern as a "non-issue", since "God" in Scouting terms already means whatever the individual decides it does for themselves.
I also wouldn't be suprised that the BSA position on homosexual leaders evolves slowly over time, especially if the US Congress ever amends the Federal Civil Rights Act to make sexual preference a protected federal civil right. That would have been a better venue to approach the issue than pressuring BSA directly and getting it to dig in its heels on the issue. (You can already see the slow change in the position statements about homosexuals as members (not leaders) over the decade.)
I suspect some of the outside activists who got involved when these issues heated up in the early ninties expected BSA to cave like other organizations. They didn't understand that Scouting is VERY traditional and that change comes slowly. Most adults in Boy Scouting are VERY proud that their kids repeat the same oath that their fathers and grandfathers did and that some units have been in continuous existance for seventy years. (Contrast that with GSUSA who did cave quickly but also had previously changed their oath a few times and where very few individual units last more than a few years). Trying to externally force BSA to change and then trashing the Boy Scouts just gets a lot of folks who might have been more sympathetic riled up and makes it harder to do so internally. The fact that BSA stuck to it's guns all the way to the Supreme Court and then WON probably really irritated "progressives" and led to some of the current issues, but it wasn't much of a suprise to folks who knew the organization. But that's all water over the dam now.
The point is that these issues are truly minor compared to our day to day concern of running units, activities and recruiting youth and leaders. We really don't have time nor interest to engage in witchhunts or tilting at windmills. We do object to outsiders, who for the most part haven't invested years working for the kids, trashing an entire program that has helped millions of kids over miniscule issues that affect only a few. It's a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Attempting to squash a Jamboree for 35,000 kids is a good example. The Senate agreed 98-0. When did the Senate ever vote on ANYTHING 98-0? If folks want to get endorsement for their non-traditional behaviors and beliefs, then find another icon of virtue to smash. Things might change in BSA, but it will be glacial and the GREATER the outside pressure, the SLOWER it will be.- GCW 3 Feb
BSA should consider resigning from the World Organization of the Scout Movement (WOSM) and either join another existing international Scouting organization, starting a new international Scouting organization, or stay independent. WOSM essentially mandates religion or spirituality instead of just encouraging it or remaining neutral and letting each National Scout Organization make their own choice.-- Jagz 06:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
As a member of WOSM, BSA must include a reference to "God" in the Scout Oath; this is related to several controversies discussed in the article including that of the future of the National Scout Jamboree. If BSA was no longer a member of WOSM, it could have a non-spiritual Scout oath.-- Jagz 08:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
...is NOT to quibble about personal ideals or feelings. Talk pages exist to discuss the formation of their articles. I wont say I'm not guilty of getting mixed up in (sometimes heated) discussions that involve personal beliefs, values, morals, opinions, politics or whatever else, because I have, and 3 of my comments can be seen above on this very page. But I plan to stop it, now. This is rediculous. There are chatrooms and message boards all over the Internet for discussing personal opinions like the ones expressed on this talk page. If thats how you need to express yourself, then go there and do it. If you want to contribute to encyclopedia articles in a constructive manner, then please stay because we desperately need you.
I'm tired of having to sift through all the opinionated bullshit on this (and other Scouting) talk pages to see if anyone has made a comment regarding the direction/content (or lack there of)/etc. of articles in the Scouting Project, so that I may be of some assistance. Tired of it. Sick of it. I'm here to help write and improve encyclopedia articles, not to get into arguments related to them or to have to read them because they are everywhere instead of talk regarding the article itself. Opinions please go elsewhere, at LEAST to your personal user talk pages. Everything else, please stay, we have some work to do. Agendas are not needed here, researchers and editors are. Thanks, -- Naha| (talk) 04:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I sent an email to SCOUT eh! regarding the accuracy of a couple of statements in the article about Scouts Canada. SCOUT eh! is a group of "registered Scouts Canada members from across Canada dedicated to transforming Scouts Canada into a democratic association". Here is my email and their reply:
>I am from USA. I was hoping you could answer some questions about >Scouts Canada. >I'm working on the Wikipedia article, "Controversies about the Boy >Scouts of America" at > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_Boy_Scouts_of_America. >There are some references to Scouts Canada. Are these statements true >about Scouts Canada?
I'm glad to help. I have done some work on Wikipedia myself. My username is lkmorlan
>1. Since deciding to to admit females, atheists, agnostics, gays, >lesbians, bisexuals, and transsexuals into troops in 1998, Scouts >Canada's membership has dramatically decreased, leading to fiscal >problems.[1] (Was this the reason for the decline in membership?)
Simply, no. Membership decline has been an ongoing problem for decades. In the statistics, there is nothing to distinguish 1998 from any other year. There certainly are fiscal problems now caused by membership decline. See: http://scouteh.ca/resources/2006-02-03-sc_finances.php
The article referenced in the footnote in the article contains many errors and misconceptions and is not a reliable source of information about Scouts Canada.
There are other serious problems with the statement. Let's take them one at a time.
Females: In 1971, Rover Crews (ages 18-26) were given the option of admitting female members. In 1984, this "local option" was extended to Venturers (ages 14-17). In 1992, local option was extended to Beavers (5-7), Wolf Cubs (8-10), and Scouts (11-14). In 1998, local option was removed. From that time, all sections have been required to admit female members. This was the only change of consequence that happened in 1998.
Atheists and agnostics: Religious activities are an almost non-existent part Scouts Canada programs, in practise. Unless an adult is vocally an atheist, they will have no problems in Scouts Canada. Many people who are atheists or agnostics are members, both as youth and adults. The Scouts Canada program contains no Board of Review were youth could be asked about their Duty to God, so this doesn't come up as a issue for them. If a youth member voiced something, this would be dismissed as the youth "still seeking".
I have only heard of one case where a Scouter was dismissed for his religious beliefs. In this case, the Scouter called an open line radio program and made it known that he was an atheist and a Scouter. His District Commissioner revoked his membership and the Scouter accepted this. If it had been fought either internally or at the Human Rights Tribunal, I am confident it would have been over-turned.
Remember that only about one-third of Canadians attend church once a month or more and the number has been falling for decades. Canadian society is not very religious and Scouting has followed the broader trend. Scouts Canada's written policies have not been significantly adjusted in many years. Their is no DRP equivalent. The policies are vague.
Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transsexuals: With the exception of their current general non-discrimination statement, there has never been any official Scouts Canada policy about any of these. It is not reasonable to point to any particular date and say that after this date, gays have been allowed to join. Their acceptance within Scouting mirrors their acceptance within society at large. More below.
>2. Scouts Canada allows homosexuals as members and in leadership >positions, however, individual units can restrict homosexuals. (How >should this sentence be worded?)
Individual units in Scouts Canada may not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. It's both illegal and inconsistent with Scouts Canada policy. I am sure that some individual groups do so anyway, at least in quiet way of making people feel unwelcome. In the case of the Mormons, I understand that Mormon-sponsored groups have all-Mormon leaders, so this takes care of the issue from their perspective.
The entire issue about sexual orientation is much less polarized here then in the US. There is more of a "live and let live" attitude generally. Even the leader of our Conservative Party, which recently won the election, has said that he is not interested in re-opening the debate on same-sex marriage, which was recently made legal in Canada.
Let me know if you have any other questions. --End of email-- Jagz 03:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
With apologies for forgetting to do this earlier, as pointed out by Jagz, I am now posting why I believe this article should be checked for POV.
It seems to me from reading the article, that everything is being expressed from the point of view of everyone else looking at the BSA. There seems to be nothing balancing this pov against the Boy Scouts of America's reason for all these policies.
The article also seems to compare the BSA's policy with those of other organisations, such as Scouting in the UK and Scout Canada. Comparing other organisations is no basis for the issues of the BSA. In my opinion, I think it would be good for this article if the POV of the outside world was balanced against the BSA's own perceptions of these problems, so that the article may be balanced.
I stress it is only my view that the POV of the article is unbalanced, since I nominated it. You are free to discuss this as you please, as always. Thor Malmjursson 02:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC) Thor's Pet Yack
Some are changing the definitions in a way that directly conflicts with The Language of Scouting [2] That is the BSA website.
I went ahead and removed the Definitions section because I couldn't see how most of the definitions were in any way related to the controversy (e.g. "Adult- A person 18 years of age and up, male or female.") (A secondary issues is-- I don't know if we're allowed to copy, verbatim, that much raw copyrighted text from a website-- I think using that much that MIGHT qualify as copyright violation. But that's completely besides the point.)
If there's controversy directly stemming from any of the definitions, by all means, let's discuss it in the article, in prose form.
The "Origins of Standards" section is a bit confusing-- I also added a sentence explaining what I think is the purpose the section-- namely, to demonstrate that principles which led to the controversies are "long-standing and well-established in the history of scouting", not some recent fad. But we really need to explain the controversy before this section can have relevance. - Alecmconroy 04:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I just want to generally say that my take is that this article is very non-neutral point of view. As it stands, this looks like BSA's page ON the controversies-- not Wikipedia's page on the controversies. In many cases, BSA's justifications are listed without even a direct reference to controversial action being justified. Consider-- this article mentions Baden-Powell's views on religion before even describing the controversy about religion.
This isn't to chastise the contributors who have added the excellent info about BSA's justifications-- it's just to say that we all need to do much better job explaining what each controversy is, how it first got raised, what BSA says on the issue, what critics say on the issue, and what the legal / political institutions have said on the issue, and what effects have happened as a result of the controversy.
Since I see the problem more as "This article needs a LOT of work" than just "This article is POV", I also went ahead and added it to Pages Needing Cleanup.
Ask yourself-- if anyone came to the current page with absolutely no knowledge what the controversies were, could they really make heads or tails out of this page, as it stands now?
So, this leads me to ask right out, what are all the controversies. Here's my list, which am I missing:
I'm not sure if the last three two are actually "controversial"-enough to merit mention, but I threw them up there for the purposes of brainstorming. The agnostics/atheist issue and the homosexuals issue can probably be lumped together under a "Membership Criteria Issues" since they share a lot of the legal/political dimensions.
In general, though, this page just needs a big style overhaul. Right now the page consists of mostly snippets of BSA policy and BSA statements-- not a coherent narrative that "tells the story" of the controversies. -- Alecmconroy 04:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Also-- is it NPOV to say "discrimination" with regard to sexual orientation? It's not contested that BSA does that right? saying "unlawful discrimination" or "immoral" discrimination would be WAY inappropriate POV for a lot of reasons (foremost that all courts agree it's "lawful discrimination"). by http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/discrimination , discrimination seems appropriate, but i worry it somehow sounds "too harsh". Is there a better word? I thought about "differential treatment" but that almost implies that gay employess get paid slightly less or something, not are banned outright. - Alecmconroy 11:11, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
This article is getting long, and the length does not come from a deep discussion of a topic but rather the shallow discussion of a number of topics. I think we need to make this a more descriptive sort of disambiguation page. Work with the list of issues and describe them in a paragraph. Then link to individual articles that would be more wiki-ish and on point. -- RSaunders 17:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Another controversy which is not listed (and is not in the wiki article) is the BSA's refusal to recognize a Wiccan religious award, and how the BSA changed the rules after a group of Wiccans met the original requirements. see here Brian Westley 11:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
So, let's say for a minute that we split this into two pages: "Page One" about the Gays & Atheists policy, the reasons for each of the policies, the legal challenges (and their being successfully upheld), the resulting uproar and rallying of support. "Page Two" about this new attempt to deny the scouts access to governmental support, its ongoing legal challenges, yadda yadda yadda. Page One, of course, has to have separate sub-sections explaining the Duty to God values behing the atheism policy and the Morally Straight and Clean values underlying the homosexuality policy. But the litigation is absolutely identical (sometimes down to the same court on the same day), almost all of the "banter" against the scouts addresses both atheism & homosexuality, most of the voices of support equally relates to both, .
So, what's been driving me crazy is: What do we call "Page One". I've been loooking at Wikipedia:Naming conventions and trying to brainstorm a list. Here are just some VERY ROUGH ideas:
Any preferences or other ideas? - Alecmconroy 01:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
The merge proposer didn't post reasons here, so I'll star the discussion. I don't think it should be merged because the group is more than a "Controversy about the BSA". This would be like Merging Citizen's Debate Commission into Controversies about the United States Presidential Debates. I would be fine with merging an article that just talked about one controversy but not articles about notable organizations. savidan (talk) (e@) 16:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
References and links as checked by Linkchecker: [4] --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 02:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Folks, Texas Governor Rick Perry has just come out (Feb 12, 2008) with a book relevant to this page. Consider if/how it should be added. Here's a link to
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help)I learned about this listening to WABC radio, 11AM hour, Feb 21, 2008, interview of Gov. Rick Perry by radio talk show host John R. Gambling. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 03:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The citation used to justify this claim in the article doesn't agree. The text doesn't mention the oath/law at all. Rather, it expresses the view that leadership positions are not appropriate for homosexuals. It may seem like a meaningless distinction, but it is quite different. The relevant text is reproduced below:
A 1978 position statement to the Boy Scouts' Executive Committee, signed by Downing B. Jenks, the President of the Boy Scouts, and Harvey L. Price, the Chief Scout Executive, expresses the Boy Scouts' "official position" with regard to "homosexuality and Scouting":
"Q. May an individual who openly declares himself to be a homosexual be a volunteer Scout leader?
"A. No. The Boy Scouts of America is a private, membership organization and leadership therein is a privilege and not a right. We do not believe that homosexuality and leadership in Scouting are appropriate. We will continue to select only those who in our judgment meet our standards and qualifications for leadership." App. 453-454. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.153.199 ( talk) 23:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
One of the contoversis is about atheists. There is a link to discrimination agansit atheists. Im a member of the BSA and I know that it is private and has the right to self select. So how can it be discrimnation? Plyhmrp ( talk) Plyhmrp
Understandable. Plyhmrp ( talk) Plyhmrp
The recent edit appears to be based on the incorrect view that discrimination is only discrimination if it has been found to be illegal discrimination. Scouts in many other Scouting organizations think that exclusion of homosexuals is immoral discrimination even if it is quite legal to discriminate in this way. Denying membership to atheists is quite clearly discrimination even if again it is quite legal. I'll leave it to US editors however to sort out the best wording. -- Bduke (Discussion) 22:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The BSA's policies have been legally challenged but have not been found to constitute illegal discrimination; as a private organization in the United States they have the right to freedom of association, [5] as determined in Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. [6]
I have removed the paragraph which read
The BSA's policies have been legally challenged but have not been found to constitute illegal discrimination; as a private organization in the United States they have the right to freedom of association
and which, until recently, read
The BSA's policies have been legally challenged but have not been found to constitute illegal discrimination, because as a private organization in the United States they have the Freedom of Assembly guaranteed in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
My understanding is that both those rights are individual rights and, while individuals inside and outside of the BSA organization have those rights, the BSA organization itself does not. Perhaps some judicious rewording can fix this. -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 23:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I've undid my change and added some clarifying cites and a {{ see also}}. -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 20:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Do the Boy Scouts ever do any backup research on the possibility of pedophile priests serving with the organization ? I was reading a few horror stories about pedophile priests, some of them involving the Boy Scouts. [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27539] [7] ADM ( talk) 21:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
The BSA is planning to move their national Jamborees from Fort A.P. Hill (a military center) to their own property, starting in 2013. Should this be mentioned in the section about government support of Jamborees? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian Westley ( talk • contribs) 04:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I love it! The inferrence correlating Scouts Canada "Inclusive" Membership Policy and Membership Size as a comparison to BSA's was originally added to this article by critics of BSA about four years ago when BSA membership had a slight dip. But now that Scouts Canada membership has fallen off the cliff (by it's own admission in it's annual report) while BSA's membership has stayed relatively stable, reference to Scouts Canada membership size in this article is no longer "relevant". We wouldn't want the the facts to get in the way of bias, would we? GCW50 ( talk) 15:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
In the intro, a section reads that girls are prohibited from joining. This is undoubtedly true, but I don't think this belongs in the Controversies section. After all, there is a Girl Scouts organization. Females are also permitted to be on the troop committee, and serve several leadership positions (for instance, my Committee Chairman is a female, as is the treasurer, and a lot of merit badge counselors and other, lesser positions. Should that part be removed? It does seem rather ridiculous; you wouldn't find boys joining the Girl Scouts. Abyssalstudios ( talk) 18:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
ADDITION: "According to the BSA, "The Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs were designed to meet the emotional, psychological, physical, and other needs of boys between the ages of 8 and 14."[27] While the BSA does not admit girls to these programs, the Venturing program is open to young men and women ages 14 through 21." I did not see that last time, but it seems rather redundant. Abyssalstudios ( talk) 18:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I spent several years in scouting up to becoming an eagle scout. I distinctly remember female scouts in uniform as members of other local troops circa 1998-2004. I met several at camps and events. I have heard several times that girls were not excluded from scouting and always believed this to be true. Nonetheless I can find no reference in my handbook or on the internet. Can anyone else confirm/deny definitively? (I am from troop 9, prairielands council in IL) Pinochet (3) ( talk) 17:22, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The issue of BSA allowing only boys to be members is significant on a global level. In almost every other country in the world Scouting has now moved to a situation where males and females have equal access to every position, at all ages, within a single organisation. That Scouting in the USA is different is worth discussing. HiLo48 ( talk) 05:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
This section is based on one source, that covers only the Chicago Area Council. There are no sources showing that this is a National position or that other councils are doing this. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 21:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps regarding other youth organizations, mention should be made of the Masonic youth organizations ( DeMolay, Job's Daughters, and the International Order of Rainbow for Girls). Although not as numerous, they are very widespread in the United States. Like the Boy Scouts, they require a belief in a Supreme Being, but do not have any position on homosexuality in their membership requirements. This is most likely due to the Freemasons themselves, who have no mention of homosexuality in their landmarks.
Their membership, though, it elected by the current members, and it is expected that the boys and girls be "of good character". It also is expected that by joining, members are to accept, at least externally, the tenets of the orders, which tend to emphasize service, citizenship, leadership, and character development.
Masonic methods of inculcation of values rely on ritual. This method of external development, as opposed to personal development, could make the gay question in these organizations less of a controversy.
I have gone through each of these organizations' youth protection program. They each properly emphasized that the danger of sexual abuse comes from unexpected places, and that it is important to "keep the appearances" correct, and not take shortcuts or rely on trust.
I suspect that the Boy Scouts have explicitly banned homosexuals in consequence of the organization's infiltration by a number of pedophiles. Perhaps they are confusing the two. I think the Masonic organizations haven't been as confused. PhilD86 ( talk) 20:41, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually the BSA has said this is not the reason (note they also ban lesbians and some of the male adults caught have been abusing girls in Venturers, they also do not ban homosexuals in Learning for Life), possibly because the evidence for this reason wouldn't stand up in court. The Freemasons and their youth organizations are different because (a) they have never been involved with government to the same degree (no federal charter, no government owned units, no government subsidies) and (b) they are far more explicitly religious in all their rituals. The only youth organizations that the Boy Scouts could truly be compared with would be groups like Campfire, Girl Scouts, 4-H. -- Erp ( talk) 05:17, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
"Position on illegal aliens" wtf? IAmTheCoinMan ( talk) 04:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
This article warrants inclusion into the Homophobia category, the reasoning behind which is clearly self evident and adequately sourced. Since the article has achieved Featured Article status (with the category included) then removing the category will be considered vandalism. I'm sure that there are some editors who do not agree with the categorisation (and even the term "homophobia" itself), and you are entitled to your opinion, but please familiarise yourselves with the accepted definition of homophobia and its uses on Wikipedia before contemplating a pointless edit war. Thank you. 80.41.80.89 ( talk) 05:00, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I strongly suggest removing the featured status until the neutrality issues have been addressed. Is this article a joke? It's full of weasel words: some argue that, has been criticized by many, has been questioned by some... all the way, nearly in every sentence of the article. Could you possibly imagine what will happen to the neutrality and factual accuracy in Wikipedia, if we continued editing like this? Someone who hates or disagrees with something, goes on searching the web for any ultra-liberal on anarchist blog even with less than a few dozen readers which attacks it. Now it's possible to link it as a source, and write: it is controversial, as it has been criticized by XY. Don't misunderstand me: if a really well known source criticized it, we can include it. But not in this propaganda style present in this article. Now the pattern is this: "XY criticized them that ...... . They answered that ...... This, however, is wrong and evil and unjust". Could we do it a bit more neutral and less propagandistic please?
I would like to make clear that I'm not a Scout and I never was. However, I think it is unacceptable to demonize an organization like this because of its membership criteria:
This article is an essay, pure and simple. The fact that I and a lot of other people think this is a good topic for discussion does not change the fact that it is an essay. This kind of thing is EXACTLY why I think wikipedia is ultimately a farce. There is certainly a place in the world for this kind of analysis, and maybe wikipedia actually IS the place, but in my opinion that makes wikipedia, by definition, not an encyclopedia. I really hope the "powers that be" at wikipedia come to terms with this sooner or later and stop pretending that any essay or discussion topic, as long as it has a bunch of footnotes attached, can automatically be called an "encyclopedia article." 18:03, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
You missed their point. They basically said that, from start to finish, this "article" is just an attack against BSA disguised as as an article.
The article claims that the oath has remained unchanged since 1911, and has the following text:
My memory, from when I was a Scout in the Seventies, has only the first three lines. I can't seem to find my BSA manual to check this. The citation for "unchanged" seems to be a legal case, which is a bit suspicious. Can anyone check on this? -- Trovatore ( talk) 21:31, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I reverted the change made by GCW50 [8] here [9]. The laws etc involved are clearly about stopping organizations from practicing what is considered discriminatory by the drafters of said laws etc. Whether or not other people agree and whether or not they are legally allowed to do so is somewhat irrelevant. I'm pretty sure most of these are not blanket laws etc that stop organisations restricting membership. E.g. it's likely many of them having nothing on age discrimination. Thinking of the issue above, I doubt many stop an organisation from restricting membership to citizens. And I'm pretty sure MENSA is allowed restrict by "IQ". And a coal miners unions (for example) is allowed to restrict itself to coal miners. While this is mostly irrelevant, I should add that GCW50 appears to be mistaken anyway. From what I can tell the US Supreme Court has not yet really ruled on these laws. They've ruled the scouting membership policies aren't unconstitutional and that it's unconstitutional compel the scouts to accept a LGBT member however they haven't ruled that you can't punish or restrict access to organisations who don't accept such members or otherwise practice forms or discrimination forbidden by whatever state/country/whatever. The cases mention in Boy Scouts of America membership controversies#Recent litigation don't provide much help either if anything, they suggest it may be okay. There are ongoing cases which may provide additional clarity and additional federal laws as mentioned in the article, so in some cases it may come down to a federal vs state issue I guess Nil Einne ( talk) 14:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The word "Discrimination" has so many meanings that it is virtually useless. Anytime there is any condition placed on anything it is technically "discrimination". But a second meaning has more negative connotations, which is engaging in legally prohibited discrimination. And so the word game is that whenever a condition is (legally) placed that you don't like, you use the first definition to say that it is such, and falsely imply the second definition to try to make it sound negative.
North8000 ( talk) 16:52, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it's not a very helpful word. There are your two extreme meanings, but there is also a whole spectrum of meanings in between, such as immoral, unethical, very old-fashioned, or just plain stupid discrimination. With Scouting being a global organisation, providing other very effective models with which to compare, many outside Scouting in the USA see the discrimination it practices, while mostly being legal according to US law, to be in one of the categories I've just listed. BSA is probably one of the most conservative incarnations of Scouting in the world. I do, and I feel it's worth discussing. HiLo48 ( talk) 20:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
The defacto situation with BSA USA is that it is full of atheists, (I know many that are also Eagle Scouts and in all types of adult leadership positions) and the few person (of the millions in BSA) that have run afoul of the BSA have been just atheists who were out to make an atheist point. It's similar for homosexuals, except with smaller numbers because with an average age of about 10 or 11 years old for youth members, most scouts are too young to be any kind of "sexuals". The reality is that BSA only bars AVOWED homosexuals from senior leadership positions. In short, it lets all youth in except those who seek to make BSA a battleground or platform for their views in favor of societal normalization of homosexuality and atheism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.24.138.102 ( talk) 19:24, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I think that what I already said most accurately characterizes the situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.24.138.102 ( talk) 22:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
First, my comments are to try to convey how it actually is in BSA rather than to score points. That is that a YOUTH does does not have to hide homosexuality or atheism to remain a Scout. To have a senior leadership role (e.g. adult or near adult)a low key (but not hidden) atheist has about a 0% chance of losing that role, and a low key (but not hidden) homosexual has about a 1% chance of losing that role. But a homosexual or atheist adult who shouts such from the rooftops (i.e seeks to make BSA a battleground or platform for their views in favor of societal normalization of homosexuality and atheism.) has about a 99% chance of losing that role. Of the (I'd guess) 20,000,000 people who have gone through BSA, I think that this has happened to 2 people(both adults) for homosexuality and 1 person (and that was indirectly......was actually denied admission because the adult refused to sign the application) for atheism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.24.138.102 ( talk) 15:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Answering your suggestion question, I don't think that this article has much chance of becoming informative vs. a misleading salvo fired from one side of a culture war. However, if an attempt were to be made, I would suggest the following:
1. Remove all references that are just to self-statements by anti-scout groups and anti-scout web sites 2. Where there are challenged or controversial statements: 2A Remove any of those that do not cite references 2B Where references are cited, check whether or not the cited references supports the statment. Where they do not, remove the statement. This would cause a large amount of changes in this article.
3. In the discussion section, challenge folks from both sides in this editorial "article" develop a list of youth and adults who were dropped, denied admission, or denied leadership positions in the two most salient main "culture war" areas (homosexuality and atheism). The result should be summarized and taken as the most accurate "picture" of the BSA situation in these areas. And post this summary as the lead paragraph in those sections. Alternatively, find an objective factual article which has done this already, and post a summary of it's findings in the lead paragraph, with references to that article. (sort of a forest and the trees situation) (BTW I am both an unwilling atheist and a long time Scouter though both it's 50th and 100th anniversary and every year in between)
4. Remove the "homophobia" classification. Nearly all common use of that word is contrary to it's technical definition, and is merely a battle tactic used by persons on one side of the societial-normalization-of-homosexuality culture war to mis-characterize those merely holding the opposite viewpoint of having a "phobia" or of exhibiting "hatred" of the individuals involved. This article commits that same offense by (with no basis) claiming that category.
Get the scout-hating folks that wrote this culture war salvo to agree to the the above before proceeding so that it doesn't get mired down in editing wars.
The areas covered by this piece are an area where there is mis-information and lack of information. An objective article (unlike this one in it's current state) would be very useful, although I do not hold out too much hope for that happening.
75.24.138.102 ( talk) 14:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
You are right. I apologize for the overgeneralization. That said, while there there may be different opinions regarding BSA's practices, it could be considered a matter of fact (rather than opinion) as to what those practices actually are. My suggestion for article improvement was to have it give an accurate view of the latter, and that such would be a change from the current article.
75.24.138.102 ( talk) 19:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)