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(requested by Evrik on my talk page. cut and pasted because we cannot do a history merge on categories due to Mediawiki limitations). Syrthiss 20:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that merging Scouting For All into this article is a bad idea. This article discusses the controversies while making no recommendation for change whereas the stated purpose of the non-profit organization Scouting For All is to eliminate the Boy Scouts of America's policies on not allowing members into their organization who are gay/lesbian, non-theist, and/or girls/women. People may favor some change in the BSA's policies while not necessarily supporting Scouting For All's goals.-- Jagz 17:50, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of bulleted lists in this article and many claims made without inline citations. There are obviously many people contributing to this article, which is great. However, the referencing system used in inconsistent. Please follow [{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/RulesStandards|Scouting Project Guidelines]] and also please work on these issues: using more prose, less list oriented, and better documented. Thank you. Rlevse 20:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Any way we can get the new title of this article changed to "Controversies about the Boy Scouts of America" ? As almost any active Scouter will tell you, all of this isn't really much of a controversy or even a common topic of discussion within Scouting. It does appear to mostly concern a few who aren't active in the program. Thanks - GCW 22 Jan
Since the cites requested six weeks ago about the supposed "Goshen Incident" haven't been provided, I've removed the Violence section and moved the safe scouting section. - GCW
Since some seem to think that removing this totally unsubstantiated section might be "vandalism" I've flagged it with a Wikipedia disclaimer that the "facts" in it haven't been cited. - GCW
This for those who say there's never been a case of BSA being denied access to a public facility. The city has similar leases with other non-profit groups, so BSA didn't have any preferential treatment.
This was easily found on the BSA legal Issues website as Barnes-Wallace on http://www.bsalegal.org/whatothe-123.htm BTW, once the President signs the 2005 Defense Appropriation Act, the City of San Diego can continue denying BSA access to the facilities, as long they agree not to accept any funding from HUD. Want to bet which way they go? ;-) - GCW
Once again, all references to the signing of the bill have been removed, I put them back again. If you dispute this fact, take it up with the Library of Congress, which list the bill as having become Public Law [1]
- APW 16:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Now the references to the fact that the President signed this into law on December 30th were deleted. Another FACT that it has become LAW seems to bother those with a POV agenda Here. I've put it back. Geez! I promise if the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 is ever amended to include "Sexual Preference", you can put it in and I won't delete it.
- GCW 11 Jan
Why have all the references to the FACT that both Houses of Congress overwhelmingly approved the Support Our Scouts Act on December 21, 2005 and that the White House website says the president will sign it shortly been deleted???? The bill is a direct response to the "controversies" discussed here. I guess some people can't stand FACTS when they don't suit their POV agenda!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm going to keep putting this very relevant fact back in- GCW
"But since all legislation has to pass constitutional muster, it will almost certainly be struck down on identical grounds if it is signed into law." Removed as it's pure conjecture and future speculation, unless the writer is the judge in question. Let's stick to facts, not future prognostication unless this is the "paranormal" article.
It's out again. It's still speculation about future events (thus POV) and not a FACT- GCW
The bill was written as direct response to the judge's illogical decision that the BSA is a religion, which now becomes moot as a result.
Well, considering that the judge was a woman, it's hard to see how much research you actually did about "his" ruling. - GCW 28 Dec
It defines DOD support of the Boy Scout Jamboree (and other large national youth group gatherings including non-BSA ones) as military training exercises, which have nothing to do with "establishment of religion". Regarding the Constitutional question, in the bill the Congress found that the courts have little say over how the Congress raises funds for and instructs the executive branch how to train it's military.
And the President says on www.whitehouse.gov that he definitely will be signing the Defense Appropriation Act which this is now part of, so it's "when" (probably within two weeks) not "if". -GCW
As it's stated in many Boy Scout materials, Scouting requires boys to be "reverent," not to "believe in God."
Having recently attended the 2005 National Jamboree as a visitor, and seeing religious services held for myriads of religions (jewish, catholic, two christian faiths, mormon), dispelled my doubts that the BSA is a religious organization. If it were, it would be more organized. Also, since many troops contained members with similar religious beliefs, if no service was held for them, they did it themselves, and nobody harassed them because they weren't praising a God. As long as a scout has a religion, he is usually not bothered by anyone. Any judges who claim Boy Scouting is a religious organization should have their position stripped based on the fact they can't think. -Chewbacca
LETS STICK TO FACTS - Until someone can give me the name of a Scout in a non-leadership position who was removed from BSA for being openly homosexual, the fact remains that BSA policy as written on it's own page proscribes known and avowed homosexuals from LEADERSHIP positions not general boy membership! I'll probably be waiting for a long time as there never has been any. Atheism is another matter, altogether and is proscribed for general members. GCW
18 Year Old Life Scout Greg Lattera - Obviously had to be in a leadership position to achieve Life Rank (and the previous Star). Also once he turned 18, he has to be registered as an adult leader. Once again, virtually every Scout who is over 12 will be in a youth leadership position. - GCW
PRECISELY!
PRECISELY! As you say "10 year olds are too young to have many sexual feelings in the first place" That's been BSA's position all along and why sexuality (homo or hetero) isn't an appropriate topic within Scouting to begin with.
As you say "MAYBE" - Seems to be in conflict with your previous argument that "10 year olds are too young to have many sexual feelings in the first place
The current 2004 policy is posted below under Youth Leadership. That's the current one on Youth and homosexuality.
I think the below is more accurate and would have no problem with it. The "BSA Beliefs" have always been the Scout Oath and Law. You don't have to subscribe to the BSA position statements. Adults do have to also agree to the Declaration of Religious Principles.
The decision in BSA vs. Dale quotes a 1993 BSA policy which explicitly excludes avowed homosexuals as members. The more recent 2004 policy mentions only leaders and does not say whether avowed homosexuals may be members. However, it does require that BSA members must be morally straight in thought and be willing to follow the Scout Oath and Law. GCW
This is all coulda, woulda, shoulda speculation, so let's please stick to the facts that have occurred as I have written. BSA has problems with folks using the program for political purposes of any type, hence the emphasis on AVOWED homosexual. You can even read that implied in their current policy on youth leadership which says it's unlikely a boy would come out and publicize that he's homosexual until after 18.
Now here's my opinion and observation as a leader for thirty years. (Notice it's labelled as that ;-) ) In all practicality, BSA's policy as actually practiced in the field by most councils is very similar to the US government's own "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" for the military. Most of us don't care what you do on your own time as long as you keep it private and out of the newspapers and Scouting. Folks around here aren't actually wasting time "outing" leaders.
As for "Morally Straight", when that was written in 1910 it basically meant being honest and good, as in a "straight arrow". It was the Gay community who subsequently took the word "straight" and made it mean heterosexual.
Sorry for the delay. I was checking the current Boy Scout Handbook for it's discussion of Morally straight. Morally straight means doing the right thing and following the guidance of your parents and religion. There is no requirement for a member to follow what you call the "beliefs" of BSA, nor would the typical member or leader even know them.
BSA's prohibition is on outward behavior, not belief. Due to their age, it's an unlikely situation for a youth "member" not in a leadership position to be a known or avowed homosexual. Most youth over 15 and all adults are in leadership positions in BSA.
Where in the Scout Oath or Law is the word homosexuality mentioned? You won't find it on any application form or in the Boy Scout Handbook, nor in the interpretation of the Oath and Law that Scouts use from these sources.
Trust me, this is not a big topic of concern to most Scouts and Scouters. The national policy statements are just that, policy used when a problem arises. Same with the legal statements, etc, etc.
--- Why has this article been spunoff from the Boy Scouts of America article? I think this might be construed as a POV fork, and, IIRC, there is a guideline/policy against such things. crazyeddie 06:23, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
It's ridiculous that this (since long before it was a separate article) doesn't mention anywhere that the Boy Scouts bars gay members, only leaders. I've changed this. -
Well I've changed it back to show the actual current written policy. Let's stick to current facts, not opinions if this is going to be an encyclopedia and not an editorial page.
First of all, BSA is only concerned about AVOWED homosexuals who publicly declare that they are homosexual and are using their Scout position to advocate it or any other political cause. I know a few of my fellow Scout Leaders who are homosexual. Nobody cares as long they keep it out of Scouting and the newspapers.
The Scoutmaster's Handbook instructs adult leaders to instruct boys who have sexual questions to discuss them with their parents or religious leaders. The general principle is that adolescent youth members (who are under 18) are not yet old enough to know if they are really homosexual.
(And if anyone needs a source for "Critics contend that some leaders within BSA have investigated and expelled non-avowed homosexual leaders and members from the organization." (with respect to members), there's several such contentions by a critic in the Pool/Geller brief in BSA vs. Dale.) Ken Arromdee 07:45, 10 October 2005 (UTC) That's right it's from a critic not BSA policy. Here's the policy:
Only Leaders, Not general members. Here's the BSA position on Youth members:
● Youth Leadership Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting’s values and beliefs. Most boys join Scouting when they are 10 or 11 years old. As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position
So adult and youth leadership positions are proscribed, not general youth membership. GCW
Ken Arromdee 04:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
The reference doesn't describe Matt Hill's rank or leadership position, but does describe his age at the time as 14. Every Scout of First Class rank or higher has to serve in a leadership position to advance to the next level. Most Scouts who stay in the program achieve First Class by age 12. The national standard goal is First Class one year after joining at 10 1/2. So the odds are very great that he was in some leadership position, and not a general member. It's rare Scout over the age 12 who isn't in a leadership position. -GCW
As I read the current policy, that would be event if he came out. As a practical matter, though, I doubt a youth of that age would want to stay in the unit without being in a leadership position and obviously couldn't meet the leadership requirements for further advancement. Remember though, that the chartered institution sponsoring the unit also has it's own say on who can be in the unit it sponsors. In reality, district, councils, BSA national or chartered institution rarely get involved in membership issues within a unit. -GCW
66.77.224.152 18:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC) - Correct. There is no information. If they were 12 or under when asked to leave, I'd be surprised.
In the BSA's brief in Dale (PDF is [ here]), this is found on page 14 of the PDF document, all text from the original:
2) In 1978, Boy Scouts of America prepared a policy statement providing 'that an individual who openly declares himself to be a homosexual would not be selected to be a volunteer [S]cout leader, be registered as a unit member, or be employed [by the Boy Scouts of America] as a professional. . . .' Later position statements affirmed that stance. 109a, JA 453-461 (emphasis added)
I know of no statement by the BSA rescinding the part about "be registered as a unit member"; since this was cited by the BSA itself in the Dale lawsuit in 2000, I think that shows that gays can't be registered as a unit member today. As the BSA's policy on gays is still an unwritten policy, policy statements and legal briefs are about the only way to determine what that policy is now. Anyone still wanting to dispute whether the BSA excludes gays as members ought to cite a BSA policy or legal brief that contradicts the BSA statement in their Dale brief. Brian Westley 02:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
This is an obvious example of hearsay since I've never looked at a scouting manual myself, but I've heard that the manual prohibits masturbation and can kick members out if they catch them doing it. Can anyone confirm this? 207.157.121.50 23:48, 23 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey
YOU FOUND IT IN ANCIENT HISTORY. The 1910 manual also teaches Scouts how to stop runaway horses.
Robert Baden-Powell, who died in 1941, warned budding Scouts in the book first published in 1908: “You all know what it is to have at times a pleasant feeling in your private parts, and there comes an inclination to work it up with your hand or otherwise.
“Well, lots of fellows, from not knowing any better, please themselves in this way until it often becomes a sort of habit with them which they cannot get out of.
“The practice is called self abuse and the result is that the boy after time becomes weak and nervous and shy.
“He gets headaches and probably palpitation of the heart, and if he still carries it on too far he very often goes out of his mind and becomes an idiot.” …
He wrote: “The use of your private parts is not to play with when you are a boy but to enable you to get children when you are grown-up and married.
“But if you misuse them while young, you will not be able to use them when you are a man.
“Remember too that several awful diseases come from indulgence - one especially that rots away the inside of men’s mouths, their noses and eyes.”
The current page reads "Similarly, less than twelve other leaders and members have been asked to leave a BSA Council because of engaging in public dissent in the media." As I know of no official BSA announcement as to how many people they have kicked out due to public dissent in the media, where does the very specific "less than twelve" come from? I would not accept the writer's only hearing of 11 or fewer cases as sufficient support to state "less than twelve".
From your own postings of who has been kicked out over this. GCW
Since you still haven't provided any cites for the "violence" section why is that still there? A double standard! - GCW 18 Jan
Good then you'll have no objection to my removing it after it's author had six weeks to provide the needed cites - GCW
I've just put BACK a sentence changed from:
The BSA's policies have made it the target of costly litigation, notably lawsuits filed by the American Civil Liberties Union.
Back to:
There have also been a number of lawsuits filed by the American Civil Liberties Union over such issues as BSA recruiting in public schools and government involvement with the BSA.
It is NOT accurate to summarize the BSA as the "target" of costly litigation, as MOST current lawsuits involving the Boy Scouts are against OTHER entities, and do NOT have the BSA as a party:
Winkler v. Chicago School Reform Board of Trustees, et al
Scalise v. Mount Pleasant Public Schools
Powell v. Portland Public School District
Notice the above lawsuits lack "Boy Scouts of America" as a party.
There is this one:
U.S. ex rel Glenn Goodwin v. Old Baldy Council of the Boy Scouts of America, Inc.
...which is against the Old Baldy Council for signing a nondiscrimination agreement to get a HUD grant, which paid for a Scout program (which does not admit atheists, in violation of the HUD nondiscrimination agreement). That one IS against the BSA.
There are also these cases:
Eugene Evans et al v. City of Berkeley
"Evans" was instigated BY members of a BSA Sea Scout group, for losing their free berth; the BSA isn't the "target" in this case, Berkeley is.
Barnes-Wallace, et al. v. City of San Diego and Boy Scouts of America/Desert Pacific Council
This case was against both San Diego and the BSA; the city has decided not fight the case anymore, but the BSA is continuing the case on its own.
So out of these 6 active cases, 2 "targeted" the BSA. And the Goodwin lawsuit isn't about the BSA policies per se, it's about the BSA defrauding HUD by not living up to the required nondiscrimination agreement that they signed to get funding.
Another recently decided case, Boy Scouts of America v. Connecticut Commission on Human Rights and Opportunities, was also instigated by the BSA; the BSA was not "targeted".
Brian Westley
05:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
This legal stuff really needs to be put directly into the article itself as reference and footnotes. As it stands, this article is not only in real need of Wikification, it is severely POV and lacks documentation. "Twenty years ago..." and "A few volunteers..." and so on smack of "this one guy back in school..." What years did these things happen? Where are they documented? I am not saying they did not happen, I have heard the stories myself as long as I have been a Scout and I know there are issues that need addressed. But I've also heard the urban legends of Rod Stewart and the goat, and the woman whose house burnt down because she could not find the 11 button when dialling 911. If someone can show me the interview with that woman on Larry King, by all means document it. Same here, without citation of precedents, actual events and the steps taken or not taken afterward, a first-year law student would throw this article out. Before I get flamed, I have been in Scouting 26 years and have first-hand encountered several of the issues contained herein. This is not at all a taboo topic, but as yet it is a sketchy article, and needs a POV and Wikify tag, soon. Chris 02:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
What's the cite for 10,000 units being sponsored by public schools? I'll bet those are Learning for Life units. Most traditional packs and troops would be sponsored by the PTA, not the school itself. I'll remove the reference in a day if we don't have a cite. -GCW
Venture Crews would never be chartered to a public entity as the program prohibited it from its inception in the 90's.
Interesting, as my own council has very few schools listed. We converted most of them to PTA's a few years ago to avoid the problem. Looking at the database for my own state, about 20% are listed there in error, being private schools, charter schools, volunteer fire companies, etc. So I would say the actual number in March of 2005 would be 8,000. Of course the real number is how many will be in March of 2006 after a years worth of re-chartering. It's not hard to transfer the charter to a parents troop committee. GCW
Interesting. Any old Explorer unit chartered to a public institution was transferred to the Learning for Life division when the Venturing program was started. The unit seems to go against it.
For examples of private schools included in the "public school" list just go to the ones listed for New Jersey. Westminster Choir School, schools with religious names like "Notre Dame", "Mother Seton", etc. are obviously not public schools, nor are any "charter" schools. In addition, there are numerous volunteer fire companies listed, which are not municipalities. The same holds for other states.
It's the responsibility of the "Scouting for All" folks to make sure that the list THEY posted on their website and you quoted is correct.
Anyone with half a brain looking at the database they've assembled can find a number of instances where TEN cub packs with sequential pack numbers chartered to the same school are listed. That's an impossibility and checking the unit on their council page shows the units don't even exist!
Schools which Scouting for All's own links describe as Private are numerous. Montessori school and PTG's are listed. Etc,, etc.
It's just another example of POV reporting without checking the facts. I'm removing the entire section until the folks posting it can come up with accurate numbers that stand up to scrutiny.
66.77.224.62 05:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
See Talk:Girl Scouts of the USA#Discrimination against "Infidels" and Bisexual/Gay people:. -- Mistress Selina Kyle 19:24, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there some evidence to back this up? Claims such as "in reality, a woman who is a scoutmaster must deal with prejudice from both volunteer and professional scouters. Women who are employees of the BSA deal with strong prejudices." need backing up, as does the claim that the BSA does not offer equal opportunities to both male and female employees. Mdwh 04:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
ummm.. I am a boyscout, I have never heard this or seen any evidence to support it, and there are more women leaders in my troop then there are men Mac Domhnaill 03:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I have two comments on this. The first: my mother is a Scoutmaster, and she is more competent than many male ones I've seen, and nobody "discriminates" against her in any way based on her gender. I know many women that work at the Council level, some in paid positions. If they were so discriminated against, they wouldn't be there. Next, there are positions in a scout troop for any adult interested, from treasurer, to secretary, to scoutmaster. But, and even my mother has said this, certain positions are only truly fulfilled by males, and only males that have been scouts in their youth. One such position is Scoutmaster. The role of the scoutmaster is more important than "running" the troop, he has to be a friend and mentor to all scouts. Scoutmasters also commonly participate in the "youthful humor," or some uncouth jokes and such that one would expect to hear at an event with 10-17 year old boys. That is part of the Scouting environment. From what I've seen, women usually frown upon and/or punish that behavior, which is an almost natural part of life for the boys. This is where that woman fails in her duty to the boys. If a woman can handle this humor, just ignore it if nothing else, then she can do the job fine. And yes, I'd like to see some of this evidence supporting all of this supposed discrimination. - Chewbacca 03:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a place for original research. If deep within the fabric there is widespread distrust of women, someone should have done a study or investigation and published it. If you can find something like that, cite it as an example of some people's opinion. I have grown up in the scouting program: first as a cub scout, with a woman leader, and second as a Boy Scout with a male leader. I often heard older scouts say the endearing sentence, "I helped my mom earn my Eagle Scout." Nothing in anything I have heard or observed comes close to what is presented in that section. I really need to see some facts about it before I can feel comfortable about a statement so powerful.
Neither is Wikipedia a place for fringe ideas. Surely there are some who think that BSA discriminates against women, but reason suggests that the overwhelming majority thinks otherwise. Consider the 2005 bill to support the BSA. Politicians thought it was fine to support it overwhelmingly. These people are extremely concerned about their appearance, and I seriously doubt that so many could be so wrong to support an organization that discriminates so terribly against women. That many people couldn't risk losing re-election.
As mentioned in the article, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose members constitute a large portion of the BSA, uses the BSA as part of its official program for the young men. They also participate in a more spiritual service program, the Aaronic priesthood. It has a standard of living for its young men that includes "Give proper respect to women, girls, and children" ("The purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood", Duty to God book, 7). Distrust of women is not compatible with this; for a distrust to exist within scouting, thousands of boys must be hypocrites.
I am in favor of drastically editing this page and combining it with the main article about the BSA, in order to clean up the unsubstantiated claims and prevent a POV fork. Sjwheel 04:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I've take the "Discrimination against women" section out as it's it's strictly unsubstantiated POV without a single cite or external reference. Someone have any facts to back up these "feelings"? Until then, I'll keep taking it out. It doesn't jibe with my experience with women in BSA. There's a much better argument for discrimination against men in GSUSA!
As a practical matter, all of the supposed "controversies" here are rarely a concern or even a topic of discussion among the average kid or leader in Scouts. We're talking at most about a few dozen "problem cases" among the hundreds of millions of members and leaders and tens of thousands of units over the ninety five year history of BSA. Statistically, that's insignificant.
Thus this "controversy" piece needs to be kept separate from the main Scouting and BSA pages to avoid giving the impression that this stuff really is a major part of Scouting. The fact that there is even a "controversy page" is that BSA actually had the nerve to stand up for what it believes in, didn't cave-in to pressure among radical folks wanting an "endorsement" from a mainstream organization for their unusual beliefs, and that the Supreme Court in Dale agreed that BSA had the right to do so. -GCW
Yes. BSA allows virtually every religion to use it, so in fact it actually encourages and promotes respect for other's religions. It's position is in accordance with the Constitution that states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In Scouting, no member has to attend any religious service, but they do have to do their duty to God. How they define that duty and what "God" represents is totally up to them, their parents and their religious leaders, if any.
As for promoting the rights of non-heterosexuals, the more appropriate forum for advancing such leading edge causes is to amend the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 to include "Sexual Preference" as a protected Federal Civil Right. Once you do that, then the concept would no longer be radical. But until you do, it isn't the role of BSA to act as a surrogate for federal legislation that Gay Rights activists haven't been able to get passed.
Due to it's image as an icon with Motherhood and Apple Pie in popular culture, BSA has had such problems in the past with labor unions objecting to "loyal" in the 1910's and the Catholic Church feeling it was taking kids AWAY from church in 1920's. As a result, BSA has been very consistent in avoiding use of its program to promote certain political agendas. It's current positions are no different taken in this historical context.
The fact that we have this section in Wikipedia at all shows that some folks don't understand how miniscule this all is the actual operations of the hundreds of thousands of Scout Units and millions of members of BSA. Millions of kids benefit from the program as is, yet folks jump up and down and beat up the organization for few dozen extreme cases wishing to push the envelope. The envelope of what are mainstream American values is more appropriately defined in a democracy through legislation. - GCW
And I assume that such advocates as you are adults. Once again, the appropriate venue in a democracy is through legislation if such "discrimination" is a significant problem for the country. By their recent actions, the citizens of this country through their elected representatives of this country appear to feel that it's not. - GCW
Actually the term "discrimination" in it's pejorative sense just proves the POV slant of this entire article. The Supreme Court in the Dale case stated that freedom of association does not denote "discrimination" against those who do not meet membership guidelines or requirements.
Once again, the actual number of cases has been small, and most of those involve adults, not Scouts. Even before joining, even the youngest Cub Scout has to sign his own membership application (right under the Cub Scout Promise) agreeing that he'll try to live up to it (including the Duty to God part) so it's no surprise to anyone. His first advancement step has always been to memorize it and explain what it means to him.
The Scout Oath hasn't changed since 1910 and the Cub Scout Promise is essentially the same since 1930, so why this has suddenly become "controversial" is the real controversy. The real reason is the ACLU lost ground in the Dale case and is now on a vendetta.
Congress has recognized this through it's adding it's protections for BSA in the Education Act of 2001 and the recent Support Our Scouts Act. Without the ACLU encouraged lawsuits, the subject never would have been brought up. But the nation, through it's elected representatives, has now spoken twice on the subject in BSA's favor to help dissuade school boards and local governments from being coerced to join the ACLU campaign. - GCW 19 Jan
What's the difference in BSA promoting its social agenda and those opposed to BSA fighting the BSA to promote their social agenda? Rlevse 02:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason for duplicating Category:Boy_Scouts_of_America_controversies as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Boy_Scouts_of_America_controversies ? (And at the least, it's better as an internal link like the former, rather than an external http:// link.) If there's a good reason I have missed, then fair enough. I do not claim to be a "Wiki expert" btw - citing reasons in edit summaries is good practice, and I'm sure something that non-experts can do too. Mdwh 04:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I could not get the link to work in the standard internal link format if that is your concern, however, it is essentially an internal link and properly placed under "See Also". I think the category name "Boy Scouts of America controversies" sounds too much like the name of this article "Controversies in the Boy Scouts of America" to draw people's attention. I think that the category name should be modified to make it more accurate as its links are not all controversies per se but only somehow related to controversies. Maybe if the category name was changed then the duplicate link would not be needed. The articles should be written to be user friendly.-- Jagz 08:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
As you guys hash this out, please change the title from "Controversies in the Boy Scouts of America" There isn't much controversy IN the BSA about these subjects. It's more "Controversies about the Boy Scouts of America". As almost any active Scouter will tell you, all of this isn't really much of a controversy or even a common topic of discussion within Scouting. It does appear to be mostly a concern to a few who aren't active in the program. Thanks - GCW 23 Jan
I changed the category name to "Boy Scouts of America controversy" and removed the duplicate link. The name of the article was changed slightly to "Controversies in the Boy Scouts of America" on January 22 by Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Todo.-- Jagz 17:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed "the BSA is conservative" statement. BSA has always been strictly apolitical and requires it's leaders to be so in public remarks, following the military officer corps model on which Scouting originally derived from.
Some of the controversy about removing leaders who speak publicly on political or controversial issues comes from folks who don't understand that they hold their commissions at both the pleasure of BSA and their chartered organization. If they wish to "speak out", then they need to first resign their commissions. Exactly the same as the military. I'm a retired USAFR Lt. Colonel and couldn't speak on political issues there either.
Historically, BSA tends to be pretty traditional and mainstream in keeping with it's charter to be a patriotic society and tends to reflect mainstream societal values, not lead them. For example, I'm a moderate Republican and when I was a Scoutmaster, my good friend and Assistant Scoutmaster was a moderate Democrat. We had interesting personal discussions round the campfire after the Scouts went to sleep, but neither of us would ever use our positions in Scouting to advance our political beliefs to the Scouts or publicly.
Now as Scouting has come under attack from folks on the left, folks on the right have rallied to support Scouting. But that's outside of Scouting as folks try to grab some of the motherhood and apple pie aura to support their positions. -GCW 23 Jan.
While I agree with the removal of that statement, due to their official apolitical policies, and I'm sure "conservative" does not really apply to every Scout, Scout Leader, Troop etc, discrimination against homosexuals and requiring a "duty to God" does seem just a tad conservative ;) -- Naha| (talk) 21:56, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The section now says:
"Volunteers say paid Scout leaders have created fictitious 'ghost units' for years to pump up membership numbers to trick donor groups and charities, including the United Way, into giving them more money."
Is or was there also a problem with some BSA councils or Scouting units continuing to carry on their membership rolls the names of people who quit or stopped participating for a long period of time? --
Jagz
16:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Why the older Strategic Plan logo? -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
For historical purposes, here is the article as it was on 27 February 2006 [3] and here it is on 28 February 2006 after Alecmconroy rewrote it [4]. -- Jagz 02:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The article now says:
"In 2001, nine BSA local councils requested permission to sign nondiscrimination statements but were denied by the BSA National Council. [1] Since then, at least one council in New Jersey has signed such a statement in order to continue receiving United Way funding by complying with their nondiscrimination policy." [2]
How many local councils have adopted nondiscrimination policies to continue to get funding, such as United Way funding? See [5]. Do the councils really adhere to the policies? -- Jagz 18:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Also the statement concerning the the packs in Chicago isn't quite correct and the reference link is dead. The pack committees in question drafted their own membership policies post-Dale that differed from the BSA national position. Units have to follow all of BSA's programs and policies, not pick and choose them. When this was pointed out to them and they refused to follow the BSA policies, their charters were not renewed. GCW50 16:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Some BSA local Councils have signed nondiscrimination statements to continue receiving United Way funding. Is this in conflict with BSA National Council policy? Since local Councils can't abide by a true nondiscrimination policy (because of National Council policy), signing a nondiscrimination statement would seem to be against National Council policy as well. -- Jagz 15:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
A quick review of references:
-- Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
-- Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
People are getting expelled from the BSA or Scouting units. "Removed" is too vague of a word to use in this article. -- Jagz 17:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
How about this as a new introduction:
The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), the largest youth organization in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics, and known or avowed homosexuals from membership in its Scouting program; boys and adults have had their memberships revoked as a result. The BSA contends that these policies are essential in its mission to instill in young people the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The BSA also prohibits girls from fully participating. These policies are controversial and are considered by some to be wrong and discriminatory.
The organization's right to have these policies has been upheld repeatedly by both state and federal courts. The Supreme Court of the United States has affirmed that as a private organization, the BSA can set its own membership standards. In recent years, the policy disputes have led to litigation over the terms under which the BSA can access governmental resources including public lands. -- Jagz 21:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to get hung up on that one. How about this:
The Boy Scouts of America, the largest youth organization in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics, and known or avowed homosexuals from membership in its Scouting program; both
youthyouths and adults have had their memberships revoked as a result. The BSA contends that these policies are essential in its mission to instill in young people the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The BSA also prohibits girls from participatingat all levelsin Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting. These policies are controversial and are considered by some to bewrong anddiscriminatory.
The organization's right to have these policies has been upheld repeatedly by both state and federal courts. The Supreme Court of the United States has affirmed that as a private organization, the BSA can set its own membership standards. In recent years, the policy disputes have led to litigation over the terms under which the BSA can access governmental resources including public lands.
-- Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes- this looks good. Much more succinct. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
These issues do not affect Learning for Life or Exploring (Learning for Life). LfL is a separate subsidiary of the BSA and does not have any religious or sexual orientation restrictions. I'm also sure that girls can participate in all levels of LfL. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
There should be a mention about the 1998 split of Exploring into Exploring & Venturing, since it was triggered by the Winkler lawsuit and is, so far, the only time a large part of the BSA program was changed from excluding gays & atheists to including them. Brian Westley 03:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
When did the BSA start admiting blacks, Jews, and other historic candidates for discrimination in the United States? Did this correspond with any official or unofficial policy changes? (For example, who was the first black boy scout and when did he join?) Does anyone know how this has changed by geographic region over time?
Elements of the DRP are in the 1911 Handbook for Boys; from page 250:
The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no boy can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.
Boy Scouts of America therefore recognizes the religious element in the training of a boy, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the organization or institution with which the boy is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.
As I understand it, West developed and insisted on this. This part of the DRP has changed only slightly, mainly from "boy" to "member" and combining the two sentences. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
In the Reaction to nondiscrimination policies section it says that in 2001, "nine BSA local councils requested permission to sign nondiscrimination statements but were denied by the BSA National Council". Is this a true statement? (The citation link is no longer good.) -- Jagz 16:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Try http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewAllPosts.asp?userID=291&p=17 . The Boston Globe has it in its archives also. Boston Globe A fee is required for the full article. The nine councils seem to have wanted it to be left up to the chartering organizations. In other words a given troop could ban gays but another troop could have a non-discrimination statement and would not face repercussions from National. -- Erp 21:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually, one patently false statement that persists in the article is "Also in 2001, the National Council "revoked the charters of several Cub Scout packs in Oak Park, Illinois, because the sponsors, a parent-teacher group, adhered to a nondiscrimination policy." What we're doing here quoting from a newspaper story that got it wrong. (Not uncommon). What actually happened was the Pack committees (not the sponsoring organizations) of the nine packs post-Dale adopted their own non-discrimination policy saying that they would allow openly gay leaders. (This was in the Chicago area, home to many of the controversies (Welsh, Jambo, etc.)) When National informed them that they could not appoint such a person or adopt leadership standards that differ from BSA national policies and they still insisted on carrying forth after a warning, the local council revoked their charters, not national. National charters councils; local councils charter units. Of course, National might have pressured the local council. GCW50 16:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Here's another one: "The Boy Scouts of America requires youths and adults to subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle". Unless things have changed lately, I'm pretty sure that the typical kid in Scouts doesn't even know about the DRP. The DRP was only on the adult applications per above. But correct me if I'm wrong. GCW50 18:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation of God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership." -- Jagz 22:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Can anybody explain what the connection between membership controversies and Scouting sex abuse cases was? I have removed this link since the two subjects seem completely unrelated to me. Tim Vickers 00:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
The article currently states, "The Unitarian Universalist Association opposes the BSA's membership exclusions and this has led to a dispute and dissolution of ties between the organizations". I know there is a dispute over the UUA's religious emblems program but has there really been a total dissolution of ties between UUA and BSA? If so, what citation can we use in the article for this issue? -- Jagz 15:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The BSA barred the Unitarian Universalist denomination from its Religious Relationships Committee in 1992, and threw the denomination out of its Religious Emblems program in 1998. Documentation is provided in my article published in volume 17 of the George Mason University Civil Rights Law Journal: Eric Alan Isaacson, Traditional Values or a New Tradition of Prejudice? The Boy Scouts of America vs. The Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, 17 Geo. Mason U. L. Civ. Rts. L. J. 1 (2006).
Eric Alan Isaacson 01:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
As it stands in the article at present, the sentance:
is Original Research implying that any religion that sees homosexuality as immoral somehow automatically supports the discriminatory policies of the BSA. This isn't true. There are religious sects that do not condone homosexuality, but believe that the discriminatory polices of the BSA are also wrong and many sects that belive that discrimination against atheists is also wrong. The sentance above needs to be reworded, cited or removed. 207.69.137.20 23:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
right|75px|thumb|Original image I do not understand why the 1910-2010 BSA 'Strategic Plan' logo is included in this article. The inclusion of 2002-2005 logo might be justified by the 'Timeless Values' tie in to the reasoning the BSA has its controversial membership policies - but unless the current strategic plan is somehow incorporated into the article, I think that the other logo should go. 207.69.137.39 00:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed the tags on some procedural points:
-- Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
What is the BSA Strategic Plan? -- Jagz 15:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Re the in-body "see also" sections; I recommend replacing them with {{ details}}. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is a shortcut to the Wikipedia policy regarding the neutral point of view (NPOV). -- Jagz 21:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Check it:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314570,00.html
Basically, the scouts were renting a public building for 1$ a year, but now they have to pay full rent because they fail to meet the city's non-discrimination requirements. Very interesting, considering this is the same group, I think, that attempted to write a non-discrimination policy which was shot down by the national leadership.
May want to wait a bit to see how it plays out, but it's getting covered on CNN tonight and should continue to be interesting, so keep an eye on it. VatoFirme 19:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Just finished a huge cleanup of the references. There are four marked with {{ citation broken}}—these need templates. Some of them I was unsure as to the intent (and my brain is hurting after all that). --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 17:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I just rolled a change from 21 years back to 20, using WP:Twinkle. I think that particular change has previously been cycled back & forth between those two ages. My edit summary got truncated in the process, and doesn't make sense as it appears. My un-truncated summary would have read "The cited supporting source says "Venturing is a youth development program of the Boy Scouts of America for young men and women who are 14 (and have completed the eighth grade) through 20 years of age." (that was truncated after the word "through"). -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 21:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Venturers and Sea Scouts registered in a crew or ship prior to their 21st birthday may continue as members after their 21st birthday until the crew or ship recharters or until they reach their 22nd birthday, whichever comes first.--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 21:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
(requested by Evrik on my talk page. cut and pasted because we cannot do a history merge on categories due to Mediawiki limitations). Syrthiss 20:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that merging Scouting For All into this article is a bad idea. This article discusses the controversies while making no recommendation for change whereas the stated purpose of the non-profit organization Scouting For All is to eliminate the Boy Scouts of America's policies on not allowing members into their organization who are gay/lesbian, non-theist, and/or girls/women. People may favor some change in the BSA's policies while not necessarily supporting Scouting For All's goals.-- Jagz 17:50, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of bulleted lists in this article and many claims made without inline citations. There are obviously many people contributing to this article, which is great. However, the referencing system used in inconsistent. Please follow [{Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/RulesStandards|Scouting Project Guidelines]] and also please work on these issues: using more prose, less list oriented, and better documented. Thank you. Rlevse 20:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Any way we can get the new title of this article changed to "Controversies about the Boy Scouts of America" ? As almost any active Scouter will tell you, all of this isn't really much of a controversy or even a common topic of discussion within Scouting. It does appear to mostly concern a few who aren't active in the program. Thanks - GCW 22 Jan
Since the cites requested six weeks ago about the supposed "Goshen Incident" haven't been provided, I've removed the Violence section and moved the safe scouting section. - GCW
Since some seem to think that removing this totally unsubstantiated section might be "vandalism" I've flagged it with a Wikipedia disclaimer that the "facts" in it haven't been cited. - GCW
This for those who say there's never been a case of BSA being denied access to a public facility. The city has similar leases with other non-profit groups, so BSA didn't have any preferential treatment.
This was easily found on the BSA legal Issues website as Barnes-Wallace on http://www.bsalegal.org/whatothe-123.htm BTW, once the President signs the 2005 Defense Appropriation Act, the City of San Diego can continue denying BSA access to the facilities, as long they agree not to accept any funding from HUD. Want to bet which way they go? ;-) - GCW
Once again, all references to the signing of the bill have been removed, I put them back again. If you dispute this fact, take it up with the Library of Congress, which list the bill as having become Public Law [1]
- APW 16:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Now the references to the fact that the President signed this into law on December 30th were deleted. Another FACT that it has become LAW seems to bother those with a POV agenda Here. I've put it back. Geez! I promise if the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 is ever amended to include "Sexual Preference", you can put it in and I won't delete it.
- GCW 11 Jan
Why have all the references to the FACT that both Houses of Congress overwhelmingly approved the Support Our Scouts Act on December 21, 2005 and that the White House website says the president will sign it shortly been deleted???? The bill is a direct response to the "controversies" discussed here. I guess some people can't stand FACTS when they don't suit their POV agenda!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm going to keep putting this very relevant fact back in- GCW
"But since all legislation has to pass constitutional muster, it will almost certainly be struck down on identical grounds if it is signed into law." Removed as it's pure conjecture and future speculation, unless the writer is the judge in question. Let's stick to facts, not future prognostication unless this is the "paranormal" article.
It's out again. It's still speculation about future events (thus POV) and not a FACT- GCW
The bill was written as direct response to the judge's illogical decision that the BSA is a religion, which now becomes moot as a result.
Well, considering that the judge was a woman, it's hard to see how much research you actually did about "his" ruling. - GCW 28 Dec
It defines DOD support of the Boy Scout Jamboree (and other large national youth group gatherings including non-BSA ones) as military training exercises, which have nothing to do with "establishment of religion". Regarding the Constitutional question, in the bill the Congress found that the courts have little say over how the Congress raises funds for and instructs the executive branch how to train it's military.
And the President says on www.whitehouse.gov that he definitely will be signing the Defense Appropriation Act which this is now part of, so it's "when" (probably within two weeks) not "if". -GCW
As it's stated in many Boy Scout materials, Scouting requires boys to be "reverent," not to "believe in God."
Having recently attended the 2005 National Jamboree as a visitor, and seeing religious services held for myriads of religions (jewish, catholic, two christian faiths, mormon), dispelled my doubts that the BSA is a religious organization. If it were, it would be more organized. Also, since many troops contained members with similar religious beliefs, if no service was held for them, they did it themselves, and nobody harassed them because they weren't praising a God. As long as a scout has a religion, he is usually not bothered by anyone. Any judges who claim Boy Scouting is a religious organization should have their position stripped based on the fact they can't think. -Chewbacca
LETS STICK TO FACTS - Until someone can give me the name of a Scout in a non-leadership position who was removed from BSA for being openly homosexual, the fact remains that BSA policy as written on it's own page proscribes known and avowed homosexuals from LEADERSHIP positions not general boy membership! I'll probably be waiting for a long time as there never has been any. Atheism is another matter, altogether and is proscribed for general members. GCW
18 Year Old Life Scout Greg Lattera - Obviously had to be in a leadership position to achieve Life Rank (and the previous Star). Also once he turned 18, he has to be registered as an adult leader. Once again, virtually every Scout who is over 12 will be in a youth leadership position. - GCW
PRECISELY!
PRECISELY! As you say "10 year olds are too young to have many sexual feelings in the first place" That's been BSA's position all along and why sexuality (homo or hetero) isn't an appropriate topic within Scouting to begin with.
As you say "MAYBE" - Seems to be in conflict with your previous argument that "10 year olds are too young to have many sexual feelings in the first place
The current 2004 policy is posted below under Youth Leadership. That's the current one on Youth and homosexuality.
I think the below is more accurate and would have no problem with it. The "BSA Beliefs" have always been the Scout Oath and Law. You don't have to subscribe to the BSA position statements. Adults do have to also agree to the Declaration of Religious Principles.
The decision in BSA vs. Dale quotes a 1993 BSA policy which explicitly excludes avowed homosexuals as members. The more recent 2004 policy mentions only leaders and does not say whether avowed homosexuals may be members. However, it does require that BSA members must be morally straight in thought and be willing to follow the Scout Oath and Law. GCW
This is all coulda, woulda, shoulda speculation, so let's please stick to the facts that have occurred as I have written. BSA has problems with folks using the program for political purposes of any type, hence the emphasis on AVOWED homosexual. You can even read that implied in their current policy on youth leadership which says it's unlikely a boy would come out and publicize that he's homosexual until after 18.
Now here's my opinion and observation as a leader for thirty years. (Notice it's labelled as that ;-) ) In all practicality, BSA's policy as actually practiced in the field by most councils is very similar to the US government's own "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" for the military. Most of us don't care what you do on your own time as long as you keep it private and out of the newspapers and Scouting. Folks around here aren't actually wasting time "outing" leaders.
As for "Morally Straight", when that was written in 1910 it basically meant being honest and good, as in a "straight arrow". It was the Gay community who subsequently took the word "straight" and made it mean heterosexual.
Sorry for the delay. I was checking the current Boy Scout Handbook for it's discussion of Morally straight. Morally straight means doing the right thing and following the guidance of your parents and religion. There is no requirement for a member to follow what you call the "beliefs" of BSA, nor would the typical member or leader even know them.
BSA's prohibition is on outward behavior, not belief. Due to their age, it's an unlikely situation for a youth "member" not in a leadership position to be a known or avowed homosexual. Most youth over 15 and all adults are in leadership positions in BSA.
Where in the Scout Oath or Law is the word homosexuality mentioned? You won't find it on any application form or in the Boy Scout Handbook, nor in the interpretation of the Oath and Law that Scouts use from these sources.
Trust me, this is not a big topic of concern to most Scouts and Scouters. The national policy statements are just that, policy used when a problem arises. Same with the legal statements, etc, etc.
--- Why has this article been spunoff from the Boy Scouts of America article? I think this might be construed as a POV fork, and, IIRC, there is a guideline/policy against such things. crazyeddie 06:23, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
It's ridiculous that this (since long before it was a separate article) doesn't mention anywhere that the Boy Scouts bars gay members, only leaders. I've changed this. -
Well I've changed it back to show the actual current written policy. Let's stick to current facts, not opinions if this is going to be an encyclopedia and not an editorial page.
First of all, BSA is only concerned about AVOWED homosexuals who publicly declare that they are homosexual and are using their Scout position to advocate it or any other political cause. I know a few of my fellow Scout Leaders who are homosexual. Nobody cares as long they keep it out of Scouting and the newspapers.
The Scoutmaster's Handbook instructs adult leaders to instruct boys who have sexual questions to discuss them with their parents or religious leaders. The general principle is that adolescent youth members (who are under 18) are not yet old enough to know if they are really homosexual.
(And if anyone needs a source for "Critics contend that some leaders within BSA have investigated and expelled non-avowed homosexual leaders and members from the organization." (with respect to members), there's several such contentions by a critic in the Pool/Geller brief in BSA vs. Dale.) Ken Arromdee 07:45, 10 October 2005 (UTC) That's right it's from a critic not BSA policy. Here's the policy:
Only Leaders, Not general members. Here's the BSA position on Youth members:
● Youth Leadership Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting’s values and beliefs. Most boys join Scouting when they are 10 or 11 years old. As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position
So adult and youth leadership positions are proscribed, not general youth membership. GCW
Ken Arromdee 04:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
The reference doesn't describe Matt Hill's rank or leadership position, but does describe his age at the time as 14. Every Scout of First Class rank or higher has to serve in a leadership position to advance to the next level. Most Scouts who stay in the program achieve First Class by age 12. The national standard goal is First Class one year after joining at 10 1/2. So the odds are very great that he was in some leadership position, and not a general member. It's rare Scout over the age 12 who isn't in a leadership position. -GCW
As I read the current policy, that would be event if he came out. As a practical matter, though, I doubt a youth of that age would want to stay in the unit without being in a leadership position and obviously couldn't meet the leadership requirements for further advancement. Remember though, that the chartered institution sponsoring the unit also has it's own say on who can be in the unit it sponsors. In reality, district, councils, BSA national or chartered institution rarely get involved in membership issues within a unit. -GCW
66.77.224.152 18:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC) - Correct. There is no information. If they were 12 or under when asked to leave, I'd be surprised.
In the BSA's brief in Dale (PDF is [ here]), this is found on page 14 of the PDF document, all text from the original:
2) In 1978, Boy Scouts of America prepared a policy statement providing 'that an individual who openly declares himself to be a homosexual would not be selected to be a volunteer [S]cout leader, be registered as a unit member, or be employed [by the Boy Scouts of America] as a professional. . . .' Later position statements affirmed that stance. 109a, JA 453-461 (emphasis added)
I know of no statement by the BSA rescinding the part about "be registered as a unit member"; since this was cited by the BSA itself in the Dale lawsuit in 2000, I think that shows that gays can't be registered as a unit member today. As the BSA's policy on gays is still an unwritten policy, policy statements and legal briefs are about the only way to determine what that policy is now. Anyone still wanting to dispute whether the BSA excludes gays as members ought to cite a BSA policy or legal brief that contradicts the BSA statement in their Dale brief. Brian Westley 02:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
This is an obvious example of hearsay since I've never looked at a scouting manual myself, but I've heard that the manual prohibits masturbation and can kick members out if they catch them doing it. Can anyone confirm this? 207.157.121.50 23:48, 23 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey
YOU FOUND IT IN ANCIENT HISTORY. The 1910 manual also teaches Scouts how to stop runaway horses.
Robert Baden-Powell, who died in 1941, warned budding Scouts in the book first published in 1908: “You all know what it is to have at times a pleasant feeling in your private parts, and there comes an inclination to work it up with your hand or otherwise.
“Well, lots of fellows, from not knowing any better, please themselves in this way until it often becomes a sort of habit with them which they cannot get out of.
“The practice is called self abuse and the result is that the boy after time becomes weak and nervous and shy.
“He gets headaches and probably palpitation of the heart, and if he still carries it on too far he very often goes out of his mind and becomes an idiot.” …
He wrote: “The use of your private parts is not to play with when you are a boy but to enable you to get children when you are grown-up and married.
“But if you misuse them while young, you will not be able to use them when you are a man.
“Remember too that several awful diseases come from indulgence - one especially that rots away the inside of men’s mouths, their noses and eyes.”
The current page reads "Similarly, less than twelve other leaders and members have been asked to leave a BSA Council because of engaging in public dissent in the media." As I know of no official BSA announcement as to how many people they have kicked out due to public dissent in the media, where does the very specific "less than twelve" come from? I would not accept the writer's only hearing of 11 or fewer cases as sufficient support to state "less than twelve".
From your own postings of who has been kicked out over this. GCW
Since you still haven't provided any cites for the "violence" section why is that still there? A double standard! - GCW 18 Jan
Good then you'll have no objection to my removing it after it's author had six weeks to provide the needed cites - GCW
I've just put BACK a sentence changed from:
The BSA's policies have made it the target of costly litigation, notably lawsuits filed by the American Civil Liberties Union.
Back to:
There have also been a number of lawsuits filed by the American Civil Liberties Union over such issues as BSA recruiting in public schools and government involvement with the BSA.
It is NOT accurate to summarize the BSA as the "target" of costly litigation, as MOST current lawsuits involving the Boy Scouts are against OTHER entities, and do NOT have the BSA as a party:
Winkler v. Chicago School Reform Board of Trustees, et al
Scalise v. Mount Pleasant Public Schools
Powell v. Portland Public School District
Notice the above lawsuits lack "Boy Scouts of America" as a party.
There is this one:
U.S. ex rel Glenn Goodwin v. Old Baldy Council of the Boy Scouts of America, Inc.
...which is against the Old Baldy Council for signing a nondiscrimination agreement to get a HUD grant, which paid for a Scout program (which does not admit atheists, in violation of the HUD nondiscrimination agreement). That one IS against the BSA.
There are also these cases:
Eugene Evans et al v. City of Berkeley
"Evans" was instigated BY members of a BSA Sea Scout group, for losing their free berth; the BSA isn't the "target" in this case, Berkeley is.
Barnes-Wallace, et al. v. City of San Diego and Boy Scouts of America/Desert Pacific Council
This case was against both San Diego and the BSA; the city has decided not fight the case anymore, but the BSA is continuing the case on its own.
So out of these 6 active cases, 2 "targeted" the BSA. And the Goodwin lawsuit isn't about the BSA policies per se, it's about the BSA defrauding HUD by not living up to the required nondiscrimination agreement that they signed to get funding.
Another recently decided case, Boy Scouts of America v. Connecticut Commission on Human Rights and Opportunities, was also instigated by the BSA; the BSA was not "targeted".
Brian Westley
05:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
This legal stuff really needs to be put directly into the article itself as reference and footnotes. As it stands, this article is not only in real need of Wikification, it is severely POV and lacks documentation. "Twenty years ago..." and "A few volunteers..." and so on smack of "this one guy back in school..." What years did these things happen? Where are they documented? I am not saying they did not happen, I have heard the stories myself as long as I have been a Scout and I know there are issues that need addressed. But I've also heard the urban legends of Rod Stewart and the goat, and the woman whose house burnt down because she could not find the 11 button when dialling 911. If someone can show me the interview with that woman on Larry King, by all means document it. Same here, without citation of precedents, actual events and the steps taken or not taken afterward, a first-year law student would throw this article out. Before I get flamed, I have been in Scouting 26 years and have first-hand encountered several of the issues contained herein. This is not at all a taboo topic, but as yet it is a sketchy article, and needs a POV and Wikify tag, soon. Chris 02:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
What's the cite for 10,000 units being sponsored by public schools? I'll bet those are Learning for Life units. Most traditional packs and troops would be sponsored by the PTA, not the school itself. I'll remove the reference in a day if we don't have a cite. -GCW
Venture Crews would never be chartered to a public entity as the program prohibited it from its inception in the 90's.
Interesting, as my own council has very few schools listed. We converted most of them to PTA's a few years ago to avoid the problem. Looking at the database for my own state, about 20% are listed there in error, being private schools, charter schools, volunteer fire companies, etc. So I would say the actual number in March of 2005 would be 8,000. Of course the real number is how many will be in March of 2006 after a years worth of re-chartering. It's not hard to transfer the charter to a parents troop committee. GCW
Interesting. Any old Explorer unit chartered to a public institution was transferred to the Learning for Life division when the Venturing program was started. The unit seems to go against it.
For examples of private schools included in the "public school" list just go to the ones listed for New Jersey. Westminster Choir School, schools with religious names like "Notre Dame", "Mother Seton", etc. are obviously not public schools, nor are any "charter" schools. In addition, there are numerous volunteer fire companies listed, which are not municipalities. The same holds for other states.
It's the responsibility of the "Scouting for All" folks to make sure that the list THEY posted on their website and you quoted is correct.
Anyone with half a brain looking at the database they've assembled can find a number of instances where TEN cub packs with sequential pack numbers chartered to the same school are listed. That's an impossibility and checking the unit on their council page shows the units don't even exist!
Schools which Scouting for All's own links describe as Private are numerous. Montessori school and PTG's are listed. Etc,, etc.
It's just another example of POV reporting without checking the facts. I'm removing the entire section until the folks posting it can come up with accurate numbers that stand up to scrutiny.
66.77.224.62 05:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
See Talk:Girl Scouts of the USA#Discrimination against "Infidels" and Bisexual/Gay people:. -- Mistress Selina Kyle 19:24, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there some evidence to back this up? Claims such as "in reality, a woman who is a scoutmaster must deal with prejudice from both volunteer and professional scouters. Women who are employees of the BSA deal with strong prejudices." need backing up, as does the claim that the BSA does not offer equal opportunities to both male and female employees. Mdwh 04:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
ummm.. I am a boyscout, I have never heard this or seen any evidence to support it, and there are more women leaders in my troop then there are men Mac Domhnaill 03:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I have two comments on this. The first: my mother is a Scoutmaster, and she is more competent than many male ones I've seen, and nobody "discriminates" against her in any way based on her gender. I know many women that work at the Council level, some in paid positions. If they were so discriminated against, they wouldn't be there. Next, there are positions in a scout troop for any adult interested, from treasurer, to secretary, to scoutmaster. But, and even my mother has said this, certain positions are only truly fulfilled by males, and only males that have been scouts in their youth. One such position is Scoutmaster. The role of the scoutmaster is more important than "running" the troop, he has to be a friend and mentor to all scouts. Scoutmasters also commonly participate in the "youthful humor," or some uncouth jokes and such that one would expect to hear at an event with 10-17 year old boys. That is part of the Scouting environment. From what I've seen, women usually frown upon and/or punish that behavior, which is an almost natural part of life for the boys. This is where that woman fails in her duty to the boys. If a woman can handle this humor, just ignore it if nothing else, then she can do the job fine. And yes, I'd like to see some of this evidence supporting all of this supposed discrimination. - Chewbacca 03:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a place for original research. If deep within the fabric there is widespread distrust of women, someone should have done a study or investigation and published it. If you can find something like that, cite it as an example of some people's opinion. I have grown up in the scouting program: first as a cub scout, with a woman leader, and second as a Boy Scout with a male leader. I often heard older scouts say the endearing sentence, "I helped my mom earn my Eagle Scout." Nothing in anything I have heard or observed comes close to what is presented in that section. I really need to see some facts about it before I can feel comfortable about a statement so powerful.
Neither is Wikipedia a place for fringe ideas. Surely there are some who think that BSA discriminates against women, but reason suggests that the overwhelming majority thinks otherwise. Consider the 2005 bill to support the BSA. Politicians thought it was fine to support it overwhelmingly. These people are extremely concerned about their appearance, and I seriously doubt that so many could be so wrong to support an organization that discriminates so terribly against women. That many people couldn't risk losing re-election.
As mentioned in the article, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose members constitute a large portion of the BSA, uses the BSA as part of its official program for the young men. They also participate in a more spiritual service program, the Aaronic priesthood. It has a standard of living for its young men that includes "Give proper respect to women, girls, and children" ("The purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood", Duty to God book, 7). Distrust of women is not compatible with this; for a distrust to exist within scouting, thousands of boys must be hypocrites.
I am in favor of drastically editing this page and combining it with the main article about the BSA, in order to clean up the unsubstantiated claims and prevent a POV fork. Sjwheel 04:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I've take the "Discrimination against women" section out as it's it's strictly unsubstantiated POV without a single cite or external reference. Someone have any facts to back up these "feelings"? Until then, I'll keep taking it out. It doesn't jibe with my experience with women in BSA. There's a much better argument for discrimination against men in GSUSA!
As a practical matter, all of the supposed "controversies" here are rarely a concern or even a topic of discussion among the average kid or leader in Scouts. We're talking at most about a few dozen "problem cases" among the hundreds of millions of members and leaders and tens of thousands of units over the ninety five year history of BSA. Statistically, that's insignificant.
Thus this "controversy" piece needs to be kept separate from the main Scouting and BSA pages to avoid giving the impression that this stuff really is a major part of Scouting. The fact that there is even a "controversy page" is that BSA actually had the nerve to stand up for what it believes in, didn't cave-in to pressure among radical folks wanting an "endorsement" from a mainstream organization for their unusual beliefs, and that the Supreme Court in Dale agreed that BSA had the right to do so. -GCW
Yes. BSA allows virtually every religion to use it, so in fact it actually encourages and promotes respect for other's religions. It's position is in accordance with the Constitution that states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In Scouting, no member has to attend any religious service, but they do have to do their duty to God. How they define that duty and what "God" represents is totally up to them, their parents and their religious leaders, if any.
As for promoting the rights of non-heterosexuals, the more appropriate forum for advancing such leading edge causes is to amend the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 to include "Sexual Preference" as a protected Federal Civil Right. Once you do that, then the concept would no longer be radical. But until you do, it isn't the role of BSA to act as a surrogate for federal legislation that Gay Rights activists haven't been able to get passed.
Due to it's image as an icon with Motherhood and Apple Pie in popular culture, BSA has had such problems in the past with labor unions objecting to "loyal" in the 1910's and the Catholic Church feeling it was taking kids AWAY from church in 1920's. As a result, BSA has been very consistent in avoiding use of its program to promote certain political agendas. It's current positions are no different taken in this historical context.
The fact that we have this section in Wikipedia at all shows that some folks don't understand how miniscule this all is the actual operations of the hundreds of thousands of Scout Units and millions of members of BSA. Millions of kids benefit from the program as is, yet folks jump up and down and beat up the organization for few dozen extreme cases wishing to push the envelope. The envelope of what are mainstream American values is more appropriately defined in a democracy through legislation. - GCW
And I assume that such advocates as you are adults. Once again, the appropriate venue in a democracy is through legislation if such "discrimination" is a significant problem for the country. By their recent actions, the citizens of this country through their elected representatives of this country appear to feel that it's not. - GCW
Actually the term "discrimination" in it's pejorative sense just proves the POV slant of this entire article. The Supreme Court in the Dale case stated that freedom of association does not denote "discrimination" against those who do not meet membership guidelines or requirements.
Once again, the actual number of cases has been small, and most of those involve adults, not Scouts. Even before joining, even the youngest Cub Scout has to sign his own membership application (right under the Cub Scout Promise) agreeing that he'll try to live up to it (including the Duty to God part) so it's no surprise to anyone. His first advancement step has always been to memorize it and explain what it means to him.
The Scout Oath hasn't changed since 1910 and the Cub Scout Promise is essentially the same since 1930, so why this has suddenly become "controversial" is the real controversy. The real reason is the ACLU lost ground in the Dale case and is now on a vendetta.
Congress has recognized this through it's adding it's protections for BSA in the Education Act of 2001 and the recent Support Our Scouts Act. Without the ACLU encouraged lawsuits, the subject never would have been brought up. But the nation, through it's elected representatives, has now spoken twice on the subject in BSA's favor to help dissuade school boards and local governments from being coerced to join the ACLU campaign. - GCW 19 Jan
What's the difference in BSA promoting its social agenda and those opposed to BSA fighting the BSA to promote their social agenda? Rlevse 02:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason for duplicating Category:Boy_Scouts_of_America_controversies as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Boy_Scouts_of_America_controversies ? (And at the least, it's better as an internal link like the former, rather than an external http:// link.) If there's a good reason I have missed, then fair enough. I do not claim to be a "Wiki expert" btw - citing reasons in edit summaries is good practice, and I'm sure something that non-experts can do too. Mdwh 04:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I could not get the link to work in the standard internal link format if that is your concern, however, it is essentially an internal link and properly placed under "See Also". I think the category name "Boy Scouts of America controversies" sounds too much like the name of this article "Controversies in the Boy Scouts of America" to draw people's attention. I think that the category name should be modified to make it more accurate as its links are not all controversies per se but only somehow related to controversies. Maybe if the category name was changed then the duplicate link would not be needed. The articles should be written to be user friendly.-- Jagz 08:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
As you guys hash this out, please change the title from "Controversies in the Boy Scouts of America" There isn't much controversy IN the BSA about these subjects. It's more "Controversies about the Boy Scouts of America". As almost any active Scouter will tell you, all of this isn't really much of a controversy or even a common topic of discussion within Scouting. It does appear to be mostly a concern to a few who aren't active in the program. Thanks - GCW 23 Jan
I changed the category name to "Boy Scouts of America controversy" and removed the duplicate link. The name of the article was changed slightly to "Controversies in the Boy Scouts of America" on January 22 by Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Todo.-- Jagz 17:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed "the BSA is conservative" statement. BSA has always been strictly apolitical and requires it's leaders to be so in public remarks, following the military officer corps model on which Scouting originally derived from.
Some of the controversy about removing leaders who speak publicly on political or controversial issues comes from folks who don't understand that they hold their commissions at both the pleasure of BSA and their chartered organization. If they wish to "speak out", then they need to first resign their commissions. Exactly the same as the military. I'm a retired USAFR Lt. Colonel and couldn't speak on political issues there either.
Historically, BSA tends to be pretty traditional and mainstream in keeping with it's charter to be a patriotic society and tends to reflect mainstream societal values, not lead them. For example, I'm a moderate Republican and when I was a Scoutmaster, my good friend and Assistant Scoutmaster was a moderate Democrat. We had interesting personal discussions round the campfire after the Scouts went to sleep, but neither of us would ever use our positions in Scouting to advance our political beliefs to the Scouts or publicly.
Now as Scouting has come under attack from folks on the left, folks on the right have rallied to support Scouting. But that's outside of Scouting as folks try to grab some of the motherhood and apple pie aura to support their positions. -GCW 23 Jan.
While I agree with the removal of that statement, due to their official apolitical policies, and I'm sure "conservative" does not really apply to every Scout, Scout Leader, Troop etc, discrimination against homosexuals and requiring a "duty to God" does seem just a tad conservative ;) -- Naha| (talk) 21:56, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The section now says:
"Volunteers say paid Scout leaders have created fictitious 'ghost units' for years to pump up membership numbers to trick donor groups and charities, including the United Way, into giving them more money."
Is or was there also a problem with some BSA councils or Scouting units continuing to carry on their membership rolls the names of people who quit or stopped participating for a long period of time? --
Jagz
16:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Why the older Strategic Plan logo? -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
For historical purposes, here is the article as it was on 27 February 2006 [3] and here it is on 28 February 2006 after Alecmconroy rewrote it [4]. -- Jagz 02:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The article now says:
"In 2001, nine BSA local councils requested permission to sign nondiscrimination statements but were denied by the BSA National Council. [1] Since then, at least one council in New Jersey has signed such a statement in order to continue receiving United Way funding by complying with their nondiscrimination policy." [2]
How many local councils have adopted nondiscrimination policies to continue to get funding, such as United Way funding? See [5]. Do the councils really adhere to the policies? -- Jagz 18:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Also the statement concerning the the packs in Chicago isn't quite correct and the reference link is dead. The pack committees in question drafted their own membership policies post-Dale that differed from the BSA national position. Units have to follow all of BSA's programs and policies, not pick and choose them. When this was pointed out to them and they refused to follow the BSA policies, their charters were not renewed. GCW50 16:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Some BSA local Councils have signed nondiscrimination statements to continue receiving United Way funding. Is this in conflict with BSA National Council policy? Since local Councils can't abide by a true nondiscrimination policy (because of National Council policy), signing a nondiscrimination statement would seem to be against National Council policy as well. -- Jagz 15:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
A quick review of references:
-- Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
-- Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
People are getting expelled from the BSA or Scouting units. "Removed" is too vague of a word to use in this article. -- Jagz 17:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
How about this as a new introduction:
The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), the largest youth organization in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics, and known or avowed homosexuals from membership in its Scouting program; boys and adults have had their memberships revoked as a result. The BSA contends that these policies are essential in its mission to instill in young people the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The BSA also prohibits girls from fully participating. These policies are controversial and are considered by some to be wrong and discriminatory.
The organization's right to have these policies has been upheld repeatedly by both state and federal courts. The Supreme Court of the United States has affirmed that as a private organization, the BSA can set its own membership standards. In recent years, the policy disputes have led to litigation over the terms under which the BSA can access governmental resources including public lands. -- Jagz 21:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to get hung up on that one. How about this:
The Boy Scouts of America, the largest youth organization in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics, and known or avowed homosexuals from membership in its Scouting program; both
youthyouths and adults have had their memberships revoked as a result. The BSA contends that these policies are essential in its mission to instill in young people the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The BSA also prohibits girls from participatingat all levelsin Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting. These policies are controversial and are considered by some to bewrong anddiscriminatory.
The organization's right to have these policies has been upheld repeatedly by both state and federal courts. The Supreme Court of the United States has affirmed that as a private organization, the BSA can set its own membership standards. In recent years, the policy disputes have led to litigation over the terms under which the BSA can access governmental resources including public lands.
-- Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes- this looks good. Much more succinct. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
These issues do not affect Learning for Life or Exploring (Learning for Life). LfL is a separate subsidiary of the BSA and does not have any religious or sexual orientation restrictions. I'm also sure that girls can participate in all levels of LfL. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
There should be a mention about the 1998 split of Exploring into Exploring & Venturing, since it was triggered by the Winkler lawsuit and is, so far, the only time a large part of the BSA program was changed from excluding gays & atheists to including them. Brian Westley 03:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
When did the BSA start admiting blacks, Jews, and other historic candidates for discrimination in the United States? Did this correspond with any official or unofficial policy changes? (For example, who was the first black boy scout and when did he join?) Does anyone know how this has changed by geographic region over time?
Elements of the DRP are in the 1911 Handbook for Boys; from page 250:
The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no boy can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.
Boy Scouts of America therefore recognizes the religious element in the training of a boy, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the organization or institution with which the boy is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.
As I understand it, West developed and insisted on this. This part of the DRP has changed only slightly, mainly from "boy" to "member" and combining the two sentences. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
In the Reaction to nondiscrimination policies section it says that in 2001, "nine BSA local councils requested permission to sign nondiscrimination statements but were denied by the BSA National Council". Is this a true statement? (The citation link is no longer good.) -- Jagz 16:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Try http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewAllPosts.asp?userID=291&p=17 . The Boston Globe has it in its archives also. Boston Globe A fee is required for the full article. The nine councils seem to have wanted it to be left up to the chartering organizations. In other words a given troop could ban gays but another troop could have a non-discrimination statement and would not face repercussions from National. -- Erp 21:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually, one patently false statement that persists in the article is "Also in 2001, the National Council "revoked the charters of several Cub Scout packs in Oak Park, Illinois, because the sponsors, a parent-teacher group, adhered to a nondiscrimination policy." What we're doing here quoting from a newspaper story that got it wrong. (Not uncommon). What actually happened was the Pack committees (not the sponsoring organizations) of the nine packs post-Dale adopted their own non-discrimination policy saying that they would allow openly gay leaders. (This was in the Chicago area, home to many of the controversies (Welsh, Jambo, etc.)) When National informed them that they could not appoint such a person or adopt leadership standards that differ from BSA national policies and they still insisted on carrying forth after a warning, the local council revoked their charters, not national. National charters councils; local councils charter units. Of course, National might have pressured the local council. GCW50 16:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Here's another one: "The Boy Scouts of America requires youths and adults to subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle". Unless things have changed lately, I'm pretty sure that the typical kid in Scouts doesn't even know about the DRP. The DRP was only on the adult applications per above. But correct me if I'm wrong. GCW50 18:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation of God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership." -- Jagz 22:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Can anybody explain what the connection between membership controversies and Scouting sex abuse cases was? I have removed this link since the two subjects seem completely unrelated to me. Tim Vickers 00:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
The article currently states, "The Unitarian Universalist Association opposes the BSA's membership exclusions and this has led to a dispute and dissolution of ties between the organizations". I know there is a dispute over the UUA's religious emblems program but has there really been a total dissolution of ties between UUA and BSA? If so, what citation can we use in the article for this issue? -- Jagz 15:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The BSA barred the Unitarian Universalist denomination from its Religious Relationships Committee in 1992, and threw the denomination out of its Religious Emblems program in 1998. Documentation is provided in my article published in volume 17 of the George Mason University Civil Rights Law Journal: Eric Alan Isaacson, Traditional Values or a New Tradition of Prejudice? The Boy Scouts of America vs. The Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, 17 Geo. Mason U. L. Civ. Rts. L. J. 1 (2006).
Eric Alan Isaacson 01:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
As it stands in the article at present, the sentance:
is Original Research implying that any religion that sees homosexuality as immoral somehow automatically supports the discriminatory policies of the BSA. This isn't true. There are religious sects that do not condone homosexuality, but believe that the discriminatory polices of the BSA are also wrong and many sects that belive that discrimination against atheists is also wrong. The sentance above needs to be reworded, cited or removed. 207.69.137.20 23:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
right|75px|thumb|Original image I do not understand why the 1910-2010 BSA 'Strategic Plan' logo is included in this article. The inclusion of 2002-2005 logo might be justified by the 'Timeless Values' tie in to the reasoning the BSA has its controversial membership policies - but unless the current strategic plan is somehow incorporated into the article, I think that the other logo should go. 207.69.137.39 00:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed the tags on some procedural points:
-- Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
What is the BSA Strategic Plan? -- Jagz 15:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Re the in-body "see also" sections; I recommend replacing them with {{ details}}. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is a shortcut to the Wikipedia policy regarding the neutral point of view (NPOV). -- Jagz 21:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Check it:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314570,00.html
Basically, the scouts were renting a public building for 1$ a year, but now they have to pay full rent because they fail to meet the city's non-discrimination requirements. Very interesting, considering this is the same group, I think, that attempted to write a non-discrimination policy which was shot down by the national leadership.
May want to wait a bit to see how it plays out, but it's getting covered on CNN tonight and should continue to be interesting, so keep an eye on it. VatoFirme 19:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Just finished a huge cleanup of the references. There are four marked with {{ citation broken}}—these need templates. Some of them I was unsure as to the intent (and my brain is hurting after all that). --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 17:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I just rolled a change from 21 years back to 20, using WP:Twinkle. I think that particular change has previously been cycled back & forth between those two ages. My edit summary got truncated in the process, and doesn't make sense as it appears. My un-truncated summary would have read "The cited supporting source says "Venturing is a youth development program of the Boy Scouts of America for young men and women who are 14 (and have completed the eighth grade) through 20 years of age." (that was truncated after the word "through"). -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 21:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Venturers and Sea Scouts registered in a crew or ship prior to their 21st birthday may continue as members after their 21st birthday until the crew or ship recharters or until they reach their 22nd birthday, whichever comes first.--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 21:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
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