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Not too sure about the meaning of this para (and see earlier revs).
Looking for references now to write an explanation. Feel free to revert (as always) if I am missing something here. Caltrop 14:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I think clearer identification of Bowery Street and its relation to the Bowery would be fitting. Even something like, "Bowery Street runs down the middle of the Bowery" (as it is, "Bowery Street" doesn't actually appear anywhere in the current version). I'm reluctant to add a seemingly obvious statement myself without more familiarity with the subject, like whether the name of the street or the disctrict preceded. ENeville 03:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Historically the Bowery has been recognized as the road to Peter Stuyvesant's Farm, as shown in the second map , http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/stuyvesant/stuy.html.
The name Bowery can also refer to the immediate area surrounding it, much in the same way "Broadway" often refers to the sidestreets that comprise the Theatre District. However, as a six lane throughfare. However, the Bowery tends to be more of boundry that separates and defines other neighborhoods, like the East Village, Noho, Little Italy, or Chinatown, rathar than a neighborhood in itself. Srosenstock 02:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was
An obvious move. I have moved the previous page to the disambiguation page as suggested. ProhibitOnions (T) 11:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Two items: Could we reconsider the use of the term reviving (" However, since the 1990s the entire Lower East Side has been reviving.")? The Bowery and the Lower East Side have been vibrant artistic and activist communities all along. If we want to speak of the influx of wealth into the neighborhood, that would be more precise. less subjective. And fyi: Their existed a second African Burial Ground between Chrystie and Bowery near Stanton Street. Emilyn Brown, archivist, has done a great deal of research on it. Carolee Inskeep has an entry for it in her book The Graveyard Shift: A Family Historian's Guide to New York City Cemeteries (Orem, UT: Ancestry Publications, 2000). This African, Protestant Episcopal graveyard--also called Saint Philip's Cemetery--was used between 1795 and 1851. It was located on the west side of Chrystie Street at numbers 195 to 197, between Stanton and Rivington Streets and went two thirds through the block. To quote Inskeep, "When the African Burial Ground closed in 1794, an organization called The African Society asked the City of New York for a new burial ground. They were granted property on Chrystie Street. In 1827, it became the burial ground of Saint Philip's Church, Centre Street. Interments probably came to an end with the 1851 ban on burials below 86th Street in Manhattan. The bodies were removed to Cypress Hills Cemetery in 1863." -- Bowerygal 14:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
we need a section on the bowery mural wall. it is a tourist attraction in itself and several museum-grade famous artists have painted it over the years. i'll try to get some photos some time soon and maybe get some text up here. it'll be a few weeks. of course anyone else wanna add, go ahead. Cramyourspam ( talk) 21:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
The question has arisen of whether to refer to the street as "The Bowery" or "Bowery".
Burrows & Wallace's
Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898 is the definitive history of NYC prior to consolidation. Here are three randomly-selection quotes from that book:
Kenneth Jackson's
The Encyclopedia of New York City is also definitive. Here are three sentences from the article in that work:
The WPA Guide to New York City is a well-cited reference work, published in 1939:
Innumberable other examples could be provided.
Beyond My Ken (
talk) 20:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Street signs are not, unfortunately, definitive. Please look at any street sign on, say Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, and you'll find that they say "5 Av", but the street's name is not "Five Avenue", it's Fifth Avenue. The DOT adopted a style of street signage that eliminates unnecessary items, such ordinals like "th" and "rd", the "e" on the end of "Ave" ("AV" is not the standard abbreviation for "Avenue", "Ave" is), and other bits and pieces that were not needed for people needing to quickly see where they are. Street signs have a specific purpose, and the wording on them serves that purpose, they are not intended to be an indication of the street's full name.
In any event, the policy that's controlling here is WP:COMMONNAME. If you haven't already, a read-through of the discussion on Talk:The Bronx I previously pointed you to is relevant here. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 00:58, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
"...the Bowery became, by the end of the 18th century, New York's most elegant street, lined with the mansions of prosperous residents and with fashionable shops" (p.29, emphasis added) Note that the street is being referred to, not the neighborhood. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 05:11, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
As I already mentioned about your references: "None of the above sources capitalize "the". A colloquial phrase isn't the same as a formal name." -- Tenebrae ( talk) 22:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
The street is called "the Bowery" in every reference to it ever, except maybe by people who are unaccustomed to it. It is just like Broadway in that it doesn't have a street/road/avenue suffix. If it did it would be an avenue, not a street anywway (in NYC toponymy parlance there's a directional distinction). Tenebrae - your insistence on capitalization for the "the" is completely unfounded and no doubts stems from a longstanding feud with user Beyond My Ken. Look at The Bronx, The Netherlands or The Ukraine - all instances are only capitalized when beginning a sentence, not as part of the title. Same as "The Met" (either one). "The" is a definite article, not part of the name, but some things don't make sense without a definite article as a property of certain languages. The neighborhood argument is less valid. It's somewhat dubious as a neighborhood as a lot of businesses and residences would classify themselves as LES/Chinatown/Little Italy/East Village/NoHo quicker than "Bowery" - especially if they're not on the Bowery as it might lead to confusion. Either way it would have to be determined after this issue as it's clear one has its origins in another (putative nabe from the street). JesseRafe ( talk) 23:22, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but the phrase "You know how bodegas are in the Bronx" can also be applied to [the] Bowery, so in context it would be "You know how bodegas are on Bowery"/"You know how bodegas are on the Bowery." The latter sounds incorrect to me for some reason. Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 12:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Burrows, Edwin G. and Wallace, Mike (1999). Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-195-11634-8.
Jackson, Kenneth T., ed. (2010). The Encyclopedia of New York City (2nd ed.). New Haven: Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-11465-2.
These are not out of date, they are quite recent and definitive. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 17:31, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Epicgenius, consensus doesn't mean we have to convince you to change the way you refer to the street when you speak, but of all the editors who have chimed in here on the page, all but you have advocated for the "the" in the article. You don't have to be convinced that it's right, but accept that more people than you think it's right. It's a supermajority, it doesn't have to be unanimous. JesseRafe ( talk) 18:06, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Want reliable sources? This is reliable enough. Note that it says "the Bronx" but not "the Bowery"! Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 12:47, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
The recent discussion has demonstrated consensus that the common name is the Bowery. I propose that we move the page. Any objections? Pburka ( talk) 00:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Epicgenius would like to add a contemporary map to the article and Beyond My Ken appears to oppose it. Given that this article is about both the street and the neighborhood, I think that having a map isn't a bad idea. However the map which was added isn't very good. The scale is too small, it portrays most of Manhattan, and the lines are too heavy, obscuring the neighborhood itself. If a better map can be provided, I wouldn't object to its addition. Ideally, the map should indicate both the street and the neighborhood. Pburka ( talk) 00:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, please add a map. Not everyone is very familiar with New York City, so listing streets and parks is not very helpful. I would like to learn more about the different areas, neighborhoods, parks, and streets, but I can't learn without good maps of the areas.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can we re-add the note "<ref>Both usages are correct, as the article "the" is optional. In local parlance, phrases like "take Bowery for two blocks" and "take ''the'' Bowery for two blocks" are used interchangeably, but "the Bowery" is the more favored usage.</ref>"? It seems germane, and besides, this is based off the Riverway note. Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 15:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Some addresses on the Bowery in Chinatown say that they are located "Bowery Street"—for example, the storefront on 90 Bowery says "90 Bowery St." Should I note that the Bowery is sometimes erroneously called "Bowery Street"? Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 15:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
Are you getting how this works yet? Your personal observations are unusable original research period, full stop, end of sentence. Your observations can be used to prompt you to do research on the subject, but in and of themselves they cannot be used on Wikipedia. Please do not ask this question again in any other circumstance, because the answer will be the same - if the only thing you've got is that you saw it or you heard it, or someone told you, you cannot use it on Wikipedia. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 21:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
The neighborhoods navbox was incomplete, so I added some links, though someone should correct these if possible. – Epicgenius ( talk) 13:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
|references =
, for the references in the infobox. –
Epicgenius (
talk) 00:08, 21 September 2014 (UTC)I'm confused about where the two marginally different pronunciations in the lede are coming from, but also the importance of that slight distinction here on Wikipedia. The citation provided by JesseRafe is Dictionary.com, where I see only two pronunciation options given: /ˈbaʊ.ə.ri/ and /ˈbaʊ.ri/. The dictionary also gives the comment "1695-1705; bower+ -y," which seems to show more about etymology than syllabification. Where on Dictionary.com does it make the difference between a definite New York pronunciation versus a (presumably) more "generic" English pronunciation? I certainly am not finding that information and wondering whether it's of any real importance here. Wolfdog ( talk) 18:29, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
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The Lorenzo da Ponte article says he ran a grocery store in Pennsylvania, and a bookstore in NYC. It also does not mention his business being in the Bowery. Please reconcile the two articles. — howcheng { chat} 06:40, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
In the films John Wick 2 and 3, Laurence Fishburne plays a character called "Bowery King". If this is the same "Bowery", would someone ( more competent than me at such things ) like to add it as a reference ? Thanks GeoffAvogadro ( talk) 11:51, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Which spelling was used at the time in New Amsterdam, "Bouwerie" or "Bouwerij"? It seems the former might be slightly more archaic according to wikt:bouwerij, or maybe it's just another form of anglicization.-- Pharos ( talk) 18:41, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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The contents of the Bowery Mural page were merged into Bowery on 8 April 2014. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Not too sure about the meaning of this para (and see earlier revs).
Looking for references now to write an explanation. Feel free to revert (as always) if I am missing something here. Caltrop 14:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I think clearer identification of Bowery Street and its relation to the Bowery would be fitting. Even something like, "Bowery Street runs down the middle of the Bowery" (as it is, "Bowery Street" doesn't actually appear anywhere in the current version). I'm reluctant to add a seemingly obvious statement myself without more familiarity with the subject, like whether the name of the street or the disctrict preceded. ENeville 03:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Historically the Bowery has been recognized as the road to Peter Stuyvesant's Farm, as shown in the second map , http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/stuyvesant/stuy.html.
The name Bowery can also refer to the immediate area surrounding it, much in the same way "Broadway" often refers to the sidestreets that comprise the Theatre District. However, as a six lane throughfare. However, the Bowery tends to be more of boundry that separates and defines other neighborhoods, like the East Village, Noho, Little Italy, or Chinatown, rathar than a neighborhood in itself. Srosenstock 02:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was
An obvious move. I have moved the previous page to the disambiguation page as suggested. ProhibitOnions (T) 11:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Two items: Could we reconsider the use of the term reviving (" However, since the 1990s the entire Lower East Side has been reviving.")? The Bowery and the Lower East Side have been vibrant artistic and activist communities all along. If we want to speak of the influx of wealth into the neighborhood, that would be more precise. less subjective. And fyi: Their existed a second African Burial Ground between Chrystie and Bowery near Stanton Street. Emilyn Brown, archivist, has done a great deal of research on it. Carolee Inskeep has an entry for it in her book The Graveyard Shift: A Family Historian's Guide to New York City Cemeteries (Orem, UT: Ancestry Publications, 2000). This African, Protestant Episcopal graveyard--also called Saint Philip's Cemetery--was used between 1795 and 1851. It was located on the west side of Chrystie Street at numbers 195 to 197, between Stanton and Rivington Streets and went two thirds through the block. To quote Inskeep, "When the African Burial Ground closed in 1794, an organization called The African Society asked the City of New York for a new burial ground. They were granted property on Chrystie Street. In 1827, it became the burial ground of Saint Philip's Church, Centre Street. Interments probably came to an end with the 1851 ban on burials below 86th Street in Manhattan. The bodies were removed to Cypress Hills Cemetery in 1863." -- Bowerygal 14:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
we need a section on the bowery mural wall. it is a tourist attraction in itself and several museum-grade famous artists have painted it over the years. i'll try to get some photos some time soon and maybe get some text up here. it'll be a few weeks. of course anyone else wanna add, go ahead. Cramyourspam ( talk) 21:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
The question has arisen of whether to refer to the street as "The Bowery" or "Bowery".
Burrows & Wallace's
Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898 is the definitive history of NYC prior to consolidation. Here are three randomly-selection quotes from that book:
Kenneth Jackson's
The Encyclopedia of New York City is also definitive. Here are three sentences from the article in that work:
The WPA Guide to New York City is a well-cited reference work, published in 1939:
Innumberable other examples could be provided.
Beyond My Ken (
talk) 20:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Street signs are not, unfortunately, definitive. Please look at any street sign on, say Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, and you'll find that they say "5 Av", but the street's name is not "Five Avenue", it's Fifth Avenue. The DOT adopted a style of street signage that eliminates unnecessary items, such ordinals like "th" and "rd", the "e" on the end of "Ave" ("AV" is not the standard abbreviation for "Avenue", "Ave" is), and other bits and pieces that were not needed for people needing to quickly see where they are. Street signs have a specific purpose, and the wording on them serves that purpose, they are not intended to be an indication of the street's full name.
In any event, the policy that's controlling here is WP:COMMONNAME. If you haven't already, a read-through of the discussion on Talk:The Bronx I previously pointed you to is relevant here. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 00:58, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
"...the Bowery became, by the end of the 18th century, New York's most elegant street, lined with the mansions of prosperous residents and with fashionable shops" (p.29, emphasis added) Note that the street is being referred to, not the neighborhood. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 05:11, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
As I already mentioned about your references: "None of the above sources capitalize "the". A colloquial phrase isn't the same as a formal name." -- Tenebrae ( talk) 22:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
The street is called "the Bowery" in every reference to it ever, except maybe by people who are unaccustomed to it. It is just like Broadway in that it doesn't have a street/road/avenue suffix. If it did it would be an avenue, not a street anywway (in NYC toponymy parlance there's a directional distinction). Tenebrae - your insistence on capitalization for the "the" is completely unfounded and no doubts stems from a longstanding feud with user Beyond My Ken. Look at The Bronx, The Netherlands or The Ukraine - all instances are only capitalized when beginning a sentence, not as part of the title. Same as "The Met" (either one). "The" is a definite article, not part of the name, but some things don't make sense without a definite article as a property of certain languages. The neighborhood argument is less valid. It's somewhat dubious as a neighborhood as a lot of businesses and residences would classify themselves as LES/Chinatown/Little Italy/East Village/NoHo quicker than "Bowery" - especially if they're not on the Bowery as it might lead to confusion. Either way it would have to be determined after this issue as it's clear one has its origins in another (putative nabe from the street). JesseRafe ( talk) 23:22, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but the phrase "You know how bodegas are in the Bronx" can also be applied to [the] Bowery, so in context it would be "You know how bodegas are on Bowery"/"You know how bodegas are on the Bowery." The latter sounds incorrect to me for some reason. Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 12:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Burrows, Edwin G. and Wallace, Mike (1999). Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-195-11634-8.
Jackson, Kenneth T., ed. (2010). The Encyclopedia of New York City (2nd ed.). New Haven: Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-11465-2.
These are not out of date, they are quite recent and definitive. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 17:31, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Epicgenius, consensus doesn't mean we have to convince you to change the way you refer to the street when you speak, but of all the editors who have chimed in here on the page, all but you have advocated for the "the" in the article. You don't have to be convinced that it's right, but accept that more people than you think it's right. It's a supermajority, it doesn't have to be unanimous. JesseRafe ( talk) 18:06, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Want reliable sources? This is reliable enough. Note that it says "the Bronx" but not "the Bowery"! Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 12:47, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
The recent discussion has demonstrated consensus that the common name is the Bowery. I propose that we move the page. Any objections? Pburka ( talk) 00:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Epicgenius would like to add a contemporary map to the article and Beyond My Ken appears to oppose it. Given that this article is about both the street and the neighborhood, I think that having a map isn't a bad idea. However the map which was added isn't very good. The scale is too small, it portrays most of Manhattan, and the lines are too heavy, obscuring the neighborhood itself. If a better map can be provided, I wouldn't object to its addition. Ideally, the map should indicate both the street and the neighborhood. Pburka ( talk) 00:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, please add a map. Not everyone is very familiar with New York City, so listing streets and parks is not very helpful. I would like to learn more about the different areas, neighborhoods, parks, and streets, but I can't learn without good maps of the areas.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can we re-add the note "<ref>Both usages are correct, as the article "the" is optional. In local parlance, phrases like "take Bowery for two blocks" and "take ''the'' Bowery for two blocks" are used interchangeably, but "the Bowery" is the more favored usage.</ref>"? It seems germane, and besides, this is based off the Riverway note. Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 15:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Some addresses on the Bowery in Chinatown say that they are located "Bowery Street"—for example, the storefront on 90 Bowery says "90 Bowery St." Should I note that the Bowery is sometimes erroneously called "Bowery Street"? Epicgenius( talk to me • see my contributions) 15:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
Are you getting how this works yet? Your personal observations are unusable original research period, full stop, end of sentence. Your observations can be used to prompt you to do research on the subject, but in and of themselves they cannot be used on Wikipedia. Please do not ask this question again in any other circumstance, because the answer will be the same - if the only thing you've got is that you saw it or you heard it, or someone told you, you cannot use it on Wikipedia. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 21:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
The neighborhoods navbox was incomplete, so I added some links, though someone should correct these if possible. – Epicgenius ( talk) 13:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
|references =
, for the references in the infobox. –
Epicgenius (
talk) 00:08, 21 September 2014 (UTC)I'm confused about where the two marginally different pronunciations in the lede are coming from, but also the importance of that slight distinction here on Wikipedia. The citation provided by JesseRafe is Dictionary.com, where I see only two pronunciation options given: /ˈbaʊ.ə.ri/ and /ˈbaʊ.ri/. The dictionary also gives the comment "1695-1705; bower+ -y," which seems to show more about etymology than syllabification. Where on Dictionary.com does it make the difference between a definite New York pronunciation versus a (presumably) more "generic" English pronunciation? I certainly am not finding that information and wondering whether it's of any real importance here. Wolfdog ( talk) 18:29, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
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The Lorenzo da Ponte article says he ran a grocery store in Pennsylvania, and a bookstore in NYC. It also does not mention his business being in the Bowery. Please reconcile the two articles. — howcheng { chat} 06:40, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
In the films John Wick 2 and 3, Laurence Fishburne plays a character called "Bowery King". If this is the same "Bowery", would someone ( more competent than me at such things ) like to add it as a reference ? Thanks GeoffAvogadro ( talk) 11:51, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Which spelling was used at the time in New Amsterdam, "Bouwerie" or "Bouwerij"? It seems the former might be slightly more archaic according to wikt:bouwerij, or maybe it's just another form of anglicization.-- Pharos ( talk) 18:41, 15 May 2021 (UTC)