This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
There was also an East Prussian German variant of Borscht, named Beetenbartsch. It was a classic of East Prussian cuisine. The main difference to other varieties, as far as I can see, is that the beetroot was steamed seperately, then peeled, grated and mixed with sugar and vinegar, before being added to the soup. And the meat, beef in this case, was cooked in one piece, and only diced when done. I'm 1/4 East Prussian from my paternal grandmother's side BTW, but I'm also totally pro-Ukrainian. 31.24.11.129 ( talk) 01:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Can some add some photos of the Jewish variations of borscht, please? 2A00:1370:81A2:44EB:7021:6CE4:68C6:3C7E ( talk) 14:17, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
One of the paragraphs says: "The World of Russian Borsch". I wonder if that's a typo, since "sch" is, basically, a Deutsch styled way to spell "sh". 81.89.66.133 ( talk) 09:17, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
In USSR era, the word associated with "Vienna" sausages - "sosiski", derived from French saucisse - was actually used for any long, but small sausage. Ergo: Swiss style cervelat or Hungarian style debrecener would be "sosiski" in Russian terminology. Therefore, I object against slapping "Vienna sausages" for both Lviv recipe and Moscow recipe, replacing both with "sausages similar to the style of Vienna sausages". Профессор кислых щей. For example, " Povar.ru says "sausage products" are supposed to be added to Moscow borscht instead of regular meat. It literally says "Из множества рецептов борща есть и "Московский борщ". Отличается от обычного только тем, что кроме мяса в него кладут колбасные изделия. Это может быть ветчина, копченая колбаса, сосиски." - ham, smoked sausages or saucisse; therefore, it ain't "and Vienna sausages". Профессор кислых щей ( talk) 13:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Does "barszcz" actually appear with any frequency in English usage?-- User:Khajidha ( talk) ( contributions) 09:41, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Borscht in English is beet-based, but it did not spring fully-formed from the brain of Zeus. The current "History" section is seriously too long and covers every minor variant of boiling hogweed in water. Separating the "History" section into something like "precursors" and "beet-based" seems to make a lot of sense. TaivoLinguist (Taivo) ( talk) 19:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Since 2021, I had something to add to that section.
This artcile needs a gallery or a "multiple picture" template like this one:
Профессор кислых щей ( talk) 12:23, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
Apparently, if you visit archived talk pages with a PC, and use ctrl+f command to find "consensus" word, there will be no proper info on the origins of borscht. Popular modern borscht with beets, on the contrary, is brought too many times. Apparently, TaivoLinguist makes a repetitive error per WP:IDHT, confusing two distantly related entities. As for November 2022, we can clearly see there is a long gap between the original, ancient hogweed borscht and the modern beet "borscht" borscht.
In this sense, borscht is both is and isn't originating in Ukraine or "what now is Ukraine", as its origin seems to be lost in ages
This complication is common for food and drinks. Say, modern beer requires hop to be "beer" beer. Ancient kinds of beer, on the other hand, already existed around 3000 B.C. and counting.
Recommended course of action: remove the "country of origin" bar for borscht just to avoid further confusion. 2A00:1FA0:46E7:C1B6:0:51:E6B3:5901 ( talk) 23:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
You seem to be either confused or inconsistent. A note how
"borsch" is "a word that in Proto-Slavic basically meant "soup" is not really a thing; instead, there was Proto-Slavic bŭrščǐ, which legit means "hogweed". As for you claim, "In English, "borscht" is made from beetroot"... well beets are merely a novel ingredient for already existing borscht.
What do you mean by saying "The argument that "beetroot borscht comes from something else" is misleading"?
You appear to disrupt my point by substituting entities, essentially creating
straw man arguments. The discussions on beets in borscht you tried to start should be cut short. Apparently, there is WP:IDHT indeed, as well as bias towards beets and beet soups. For example, in one of the archived topics, you have a claim how borscht cannot be Polish because it's "barszcz".
I still hope you did not mean to resort to
whataboutism with the "is equivalent to saying that Joe Biden was not born in Scranton, Pennsylvania because his ancestors were born somewhere else" analogy. I still hope you mixed things up a bit upon writing "Demanding that pre-borscht varieties of hogweed soup be considered as "confusing" to marking the origin of "borscht" in Ukraine".
As for October 2022, there's a chronology on the developing of borscht dishes. "Origin", "Diversification", and only then, "Novel ingredients". Besides, I wouldn't expect a linguist to confuse singular and plural unless there's "the heat of a moment" rush. Same goes to bringing out the idea of mixing beets and meats all of a sudden: that's also a
straw man, because I was talking about the hogweed concoction. By the way, not only the ancient fermented hogweed soup/hogweed kvass from the "Origins" section was the first dish to get a name that means borscht, but there's Polish borscht as well, the aforementioned barszcz biały, comes before the "novel ingredients" section era. As for "We could carry that argument", please don't do it.
The implications there's only one family of borschts, the beet borscht and its subkinds, would have some validity if there were "Borscht" trademark popular product in question, and its flankers.
At this rate I fear I would see a consensus on how soda, a.k.a. fizzy pop originates from Atlanta, Georgia one day, per
Coca-cola being the most prominent kind of it, and not Jacob Schweppe's initial invention of water carbonation device; because there would be an argument that referring to Jacob Schweppe would "carry that argument" to the first person to ever taste a water with added sodium in it; not even naturally created carbonated water, but water with sodium.
2A00:1FA0:4817:FB7A:0:B:AC6E:C701 (
talk)
03:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
I actually completely agree, you can't put a place of origin on something so old, widespread, and commonplace as Borscht. It would be like trying to place an origin on Tomato Soup or Chicken Soup. It's great to leave the UNESCO intangible cultural heritage infobox up to show the UNESCO has recognised the unique Ukrainian style of this pan-slavic soup, but even UNESCO themselves say that Ukrainian Borscht is just one "national version of borscht consumed in several countries of the region." [1] Also Taivo your argument about the dictionary definition of the word in English actually disproves your point, since no reputable dictionary either offline or online defines Borscht as coming from Ukraine. In fact most English dictionary definitions actually match the Lithuanian style (cold Borscht). Flyingfishee ( talk) 12:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Perhaps the word "origin" is confusing for some. "Origin" means that is the source of further diversification, it does not mean that only people from that place make "real" borscht even today. In the English-speaking world, beet-based borscht is the only thing that is usually labelled "borscht". The earliest beet-based borscht was from Ukraine. That doesn't mean that only Ukrainian beet-based borscht is all that is NOW labelled "borscht" in English. In English, "borscht" is beet-based and the earliest beet-based borscht was made in Ukraine. That's all that the "origin" tag means. -- TaivoLinguist (Taivo) ( talk) 20:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
You know, I've been thinking. For some reason, light music is labelled as "mainly British" (thanks to Eric Coates' works), yet a lot of music from USA (Muzak etc.) is really close to the British idea of light music. I can imagine a similar argue. 81.89.66.133 ( talk) 10:38, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
References
I have a better question thanks to a recent edit by Sidor0o: what if borscht with smetana isn't exactly the borscht covered with WP:CONSENSUS and UNESCO inscr. #1852, but rather, a standalone beet soup under the same name? I sort of doubt that type of soup would count as a soup from "region U" by "people V or W", since the beet soup with sour cream was made by X in location Y for various purposes away from the living standards people V and W had. Therefore, the soup with smetana does not really go in the way with the "beet sour" soup the consensus took into account. Simply put, I do believe the beet soup with smetana, sour cream added to mitigate over-saltiness wasn't even supposed to be a "borscht", but was later named as one. Perhaps, someone who had trouble differentiating excuisite soups from Moscow/St. Peresburgh from peasant-ish concotion-tasting food of different style was responsible for such a misattribution. 81.89.66.133 ( talk) 07:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
What indeed amuses me, Burlacoff says there was 1 particular chef who made a particular "от кюзин", e.g. haute cuisine dish, while the artciel does not bring up other chefs' works under different names.
What helped familiarize Western Europe with borscht was the practice of Russian emperors, as well as Russian and Polish aristocrats, to employ celebrated French chefs, who later presented their own versions of the dish as a foreign curiosity back in France. One of the first French chefs to do so was Marie-Antoine Carême, who worked briefly for Emperor Alexander I in 1819. [1] In his take on borscht, the original Russian soup served only as inspiration for an extravagant haute cuisine dish with an air of eastern exoticism. Apart from vegetables and beet sour, his recipe calls for a roast chicken, a fried chicken, a duck, a piece of veal, an oxtail, a marrow bone, one pound of bacon, and six large sausages, and suggests serving with beef quenelles, deviled eggs and croûtons.
I think those dishes invented by French chefs on Polish and Russian kitchens are wa-a-a-a-ay too different to be tied with WP:CONSENSUS-grade borscht from Borscht belt. 81.89.66.133 ( talk) 09:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
The hogweed food known as borshch is also "too different-ish" from the beet soup.
I think I was wrong about putting the beet borscht and the ancient hogweed borscht into the same category. Think about it: the kvass-like precursor could have been a sauce, an additive — and not a soup. That would explain, why it's a "concoction" with a "mouth-puckering taste". Regards, The Sour Shchi Professor. Профессор кислых щей ( talk) 06:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
I find it kinda hard to agree on how a language that has several words for "ogurets" kind of vegetable (cucumber, gherkin, pickle) can use a borrowed word to describe any beet soupy dish rather than a specific kind of dish. Профессор кислых щей ( talk) 07:03, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Borshch, Borsch or Borscht? (Russian - Ukraine: Борщ) In your current description, You have the main word and title as Borscht. Claiming the origin is from Ukraine. The transliteration from ukrainian or russian is Borshch. Yet in the description you use Borscht with the letter 't' at the end, in which the origin in your statement states comes from ashkenazi jews. So, the correct spelling should be Borshch without the letter 't'? Manischewitz started a production of this soup, served cold and labeled it as borscht. And perhaps, cold borscht can be used in such a format, while hot borshch can be used without the t. In any event, the correct spelling, even from the title of this page to the descriptions, should be BORSHCH, and not BORSCHT.. Valcot2018 ( talk) 11:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Aside from Pohlyobkin's definition of "svekolnik", there is Ushakov's definition, as well as Ozhegov's definition from XX century: Svekolnik word is a word which generally describes a dish - or a soup - made of beet. Therefore, "svekolnik" is not an exact equivalent of "kholodnik".
In this sense, the following passage actually describes a dish which qualies as "svekolnick" genre of foods; despite not being a borscht or a soup, hence the possible confusion between "kholodnick" and "svekolnick".
There is a cold dish coming from Soviet cuisine known in Russia as "Selyodka pod shuboi", literally "herring under furcoat". It is, in a sense, a kholodnick-themed way to serve canned fish "fillet" bits, or a way to de-soup kholodnick. It is made by putting food in layers: Canned, marinated herring goes in a deep plate/pie-baking tray to form the bottom layer, Normally, there also is a middle layer made with mashed/grated vegetables like potatoes. Finally, grated/minced beet mixed with (sour) cream is used to form the top layer, the "furcoat" of fish.
mention should be made of the unifying cultural importance of cabbage-chicken-tomato-päpakrut based komst borscht of the Ukrainian-Mennonite immigrant culture of Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Paraguay, Bolivia, Belize, Mexico, the USA prairies, and western Canada. 172.59.191.145 ( talk) 22:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
There was also an East Prussian German variant of Borscht, named Beetenbartsch. It was a classic of East Prussian cuisine. The main difference to other varieties, as far as I can see, is that the beetroot was steamed seperately, then peeled, grated and mixed with sugar and vinegar, before being added to the soup. And the meat, beef in this case, was cooked in one piece, and only diced when done. I'm 1/4 East Prussian from my paternal grandmother's side BTW, but I'm also totally pro-Ukrainian. 31.24.11.129 ( talk) 01:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Can some add some photos of the Jewish variations of borscht, please? 2A00:1370:81A2:44EB:7021:6CE4:68C6:3C7E ( talk) 14:17, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
One of the paragraphs says: "The World of Russian Borsch". I wonder if that's a typo, since "sch" is, basically, a Deutsch styled way to spell "sh". 81.89.66.133 ( talk) 09:17, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
In USSR era, the word associated with "Vienna" sausages - "sosiski", derived from French saucisse - was actually used for any long, but small sausage. Ergo: Swiss style cervelat or Hungarian style debrecener would be "sosiski" in Russian terminology. Therefore, I object against slapping "Vienna sausages" for both Lviv recipe and Moscow recipe, replacing both with "sausages similar to the style of Vienna sausages". Профессор кислых щей. For example, " Povar.ru says "sausage products" are supposed to be added to Moscow borscht instead of regular meat. It literally says "Из множества рецептов борща есть и "Московский борщ". Отличается от обычного только тем, что кроме мяса в него кладут колбасные изделия. Это может быть ветчина, копченая колбаса, сосиски." - ham, smoked sausages or saucisse; therefore, it ain't "and Vienna sausages". Профессор кислых щей ( talk) 13:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Does "barszcz" actually appear with any frequency in English usage?-- User:Khajidha ( talk) ( contributions) 09:41, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Borscht in English is beet-based, but it did not spring fully-formed from the brain of Zeus. The current "History" section is seriously too long and covers every minor variant of boiling hogweed in water. Separating the "History" section into something like "precursors" and "beet-based" seems to make a lot of sense. TaivoLinguist (Taivo) ( talk) 19:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Since 2021, I had something to add to that section.
This artcile needs a gallery or a "multiple picture" template like this one:
Профессор кислых щей ( talk) 12:23, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
Apparently, if you visit archived talk pages with a PC, and use ctrl+f command to find "consensus" word, there will be no proper info on the origins of borscht. Popular modern borscht with beets, on the contrary, is brought too many times. Apparently, TaivoLinguist makes a repetitive error per WP:IDHT, confusing two distantly related entities. As for November 2022, we can clearly see there is a long gap between the original, ancient hogweed borscht and the modern beet "borscht" borscht.
In this sense, borscht is both is and isn't originating in Ukraine or "what now is Ukraine", as its origin seems to be lost in ages
This complication is common for food and drinks. Say, modern beer requires hop to be "beer" beer. Ancient kinds of beer, on the other hand, already existed around 3000 B.C. and counting.
Recommended course of action: remove the "country of origin" bar for borscht just to avoid further confusion. 2A00:1FA0:46E7:C1B6:0:51:E6B3:5901 ( talk) 23:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
You seem to be either confused or inconsistent. A note how
"borsch" is "a word that in Proto-Slavic basically meant "soup" is not really a thing; instead, there was Proto-Slavic bŭrščǐ, which legit means "hogweed". As for you claim, "In English, "borscht" is made from beetroot"... well beets are merely a novel ingredient for already existing borscht.
What do you mean by saying "The argument that "beetroot borscht comes from something else" is misleading"?
You appear to disrupt my point by substituting entities, essentially creating
straw man arguments. The discussions on beets in borscht you tried to start should be cut short. Apparently, there is WP:IDHT indeed, as well as bias towards beets and beet soups. For example, in one of the archived topics, you have a claim how borscht cannot be Polish because it's "barszcz".
I still hope you did not mean to resort to
whataboutism with the "is equivalent to saying that Joe Biden was not born in Scranton, Pennsylvania because his ancestors were born somewhere else" analogy. I still hope you mixed things up a bit upon writing "Demanding that pre-borscht varieties of hogweed soup be considered as "confusing" to marking the origin of "borscht" in Ukraine".
As for October 2022, there's a chronology on the developing of borscht dishes. "Origin", "Diversification", and only then, "Novel ingredients". Besides, I wouldn't expect a linguist to confuse singular and plural unless there's "the heat of a moment" rush. Same goes to bringing out the idea of mixing beets and meats all of a sudden: that's also a
straw man, because I was talking about the hogweed concoction. By the way, not only the ancient fermented hogweed soup/hogweed kvass from the "Origins" section was the first dish to get a name that means borscht, but there's Polish borscht as well, the aforementioned barszcz biały, comes before the "novel ingredients" section era. As for "We could carry that argument", please don't do it.
The implications there's only one family of borschts, the beet borscht and its subkinds, would have some validity if there were "Borscht" trademark popular product in question, and its flankers.
At this rate I fear I would see a consensus on how soda, a.k.a. fizzy pop originates from Atlanta, Georgia one day, per
Coca-cola being the most prominent kind of it, and not Jacob Schweppe's initial invention of water carbonation device; because there would be an argument that referring to Jacob Schweppe would "carry that argument" to the first person to ever taste a water with added sodium in it; not even naturally created carbonated water, but water with sodium.
2A00:1FA0:4817:FB7A:0:B:AC6E:C701 (
talk)
03:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
I actually completely agree, you can't put a place of origin on something so old, widespread, and commonplace as Borscht. It would be like trying to place an origin on Tomato Soup or Chicken Soup. It's great to leave the UNESCO intangible cultural heritage infobox up to show the UNESCO has recognised the unique Ukrainian style of this pan-slavic soup, but even UNESCO themselves say that Ukrainian Borscht is just one "national version of borscht consumed in several countries of the region." [1] Also Taivo your argument about the dictionary definition of the word in English actually disproves your point, since no reputable dictionary either offline or online defines Borscht as coming from Ukraine. In fact most English dictionary definitions actually match the Lithuanian style (cold Borscht). Flyingfishee ( talk) 12:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Perhaps the word "origin" is confusing for some. "Origin" means that is the source of further diversification, it does not mean that only people from that place make "real" borscht even today. In the English-speaking world, beet-based borscht is the only thing that is usually labelled "borscht". The earliest beet-based borscht was from Ukraine. That doesn't mean that only Ukrainian beet-based borscht is all that is NOW labelled "borscht" in English. In English, "borscht" is beet-based and the earliest beet-based borscht was made in Ukraine. That's all that the "origin" tag means. -- TaivoLinguist (Taivo) ( talk) 20:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
You know, I've been thinking. For some reason, light music is labelled as "mainly British" (thanks to Eric Coates' works), yet a lot of music from USA (Muzak etc.) is really close to the British idea of light music. I can imagine a similar argue. 81.89.66.133 ( talk) 10:38, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
References
I have a better question thanks to a recent edit by Sidor0o: what if borscht with smetana isn't exactly the borscht covered with WP:CONSENSUS and UNESCO inscr. #1852, but rather, a standalone beet soup under the same name? I sort of doubt that type of soup would count as a soup from "region U" by "people V or W", since the beet soup with sour cream was made by X in location Y for various purposes away from the living standards people V and W had. Therefore, the soup with smetana does not really go in the way with the "beet sour" soup the consensus took into account. Simply put, I do believe the beet soup with smetana, sour cream added to mitigate over-saltiness wasn't even supposed to be a "borscht", but was later named as one. Perhaps, someone who had trouble differentiating excuisite soups from Moscow/St. Peresburgh from peasant-ish concotion-tasting food of different style was responsible for such a misattribution. 81.89.66.133 ( talk) 07:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
What indeed amuses me, Burlacoff says there was 1 particular chef who made a particular "от кюзин", e.g. haute cuisine dish, while the artciel does not bring up other chefs' works under different names.
What helped familiarize Western Europe with borscht was the practice of Russian emperors, as well as Russian and Polish aristocrats, to employ celebrated French chefs, who later presented their own versions of the dish as a foreign curiosity back in France. One of the first French chefs to do so was Marie-Antoine Carême, who worked briefly for Emperor Alexander I in 1819. [1] In his take on borscht, the original Russian soup served only as inspiration for an extravagant haute cuisine dish with an air of eastern exoticism. Apart from vegetables and beet sour, his recipe calls for a roast chicken, a fried chicken, a duck, a piece of veal, an oxtail, a marrow bone, one pound of bacon, and six large sausages, and suggests serving with beef quenelles, deviled eggs and croûtons.
I think those dishes invented by French chefs on Polish and Russian kitchens are wa-a-a-a-ay too different to be tied with WP:CONSENSUS-grade borscht from Borscht belt. 81.89.66.133 ( talk) 09:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
The hogweed food known as borshch is also "too different-ish" from the beet soup.
I think I was wrong about putting the beet borscht and the ancient hogweed borscht into the same category. Think about it: the kvass-like precursor could have been a sauce, an additive — and not a soup. That would explain, why it's a "concoction" with a "mouth-puckering taste". Regards, The Sour Shchi Professor. Профессор кислых щей ( talk) 06:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
I find it kinda hard to agree on how a language that has several words for "ogurets" kind of vegetable (cucumber, gherkin, pickle) can use a borrowed word to describe any beet soupy dish rather than a specific kind of dish. Профессор кислых щей ( talk) 07:03, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Borshch, Borsch or Borscht? (Russian - Ukraine: Борщ) In your current description, You have the main word and title as Borscht. Claiming the origin is from Ukraine. The transliteration from ukrainian or russian is Borshch. Yet in the description you use Borscht with the letter 't' at the end, in which the origin in your statement states comes from ashkenazi jews. So, the correct spelling should be Borshch without the letter 't'? Manischewitz started a production of this soup, served cold and labeled it as borscht. And perhaps, cold borscht can be used in such a format, while hot borshch can be used without the t. In any event, the correct spelling, even from the title of this page to the descriptions, should be BORSHCH, and not BORSCHT.. Valcot2018 ( talk) 11:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Aside from Pohlyobkin's definition of "svekolnik", there is Ushakov's definition, as well as Ozhegov's definition from XX century: Svekolnik word is a word which generally describes a dish - or a soup - made of beet. Therefore, "svekolnik" is not an exact equivalent of "kholodnik".
In this sense, the following passage actually describes a dish which qualies as "svekolnick" genre of foods; despite not being a borscht or a soup, hence the possible confusion between "kholodnick" and "svekolnick".
There is a cold dish coming from Soviet cuisine known in Russia as "Selyodka pod shuboi", literally "herring under furcoat". It is, in a sense, a kholodnick-themed way to serve canned fish "fillet" bits, or a way to de-soup kholodnick. It is made by putting food in layers: Canned, marinated herring goes in a deep plate/pie-baking tray to form the bottom layer, Normally, there also is a middle layer made with mashed/grated vegetables like potatoes. Finally, grated/minced beet mixed with (sour) cream is used to form the top layer, the "furcoat" of fish.
mention should be made of the unifying cultural importance of cabbage-chicken-tomato-päpakrut based komst borscht of the Ukrainian-Mennonite immigrant culture of Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Paraguay, Bolivia, Belize, Mexico, the USA prairies, and western Canada. 172.59.191.145 ( talk) 22:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)