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Someone had added information saying that it is made with Sorrel and a Boiled egg. I have never heard of any Mennonite soups made with an Egg, but I have seen some other Borscht recipes with Sorrel (but not Summer Borscht). My family Mennonite, and my Mother and Grandmother have alot of mennonite recipes (community-compiled cookbooks), and I'm very familiar with alot of the soup recipes. i even did a Google search, and came up with absolutely nothing about any kind of "Summer Borscht" containing Sorrel or an Egg. every Recipe ive seen for it is Pork-broth, Potatoes, Sausage, Beet-leaves (or Chard), Dill, and Green onions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Impreziv ( talk • contribs) 04:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I visited Ukraine twice for three weeks each time. I was served borscht there about 12 times, and only twice did it have beets. The key ingredients in Ukraine seem to be either potatoes or carrots. It seemed to me that the beets were the optiional ingredient.
213.85.69.121 ( talk) 14:28, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
The following is a recipe for Ukranian borscht I obtained form a good friend of mine. We were teaching in Lithuania at the time. Often for lunch we would have Lithuanian borscht, which DOES NOT contain beets. I happened one day to mention during lunch that I would like a recipe for the Lithuanian version. I was asked if I would settle for a Ukranian version. Here it is.
How to Make Ukrainian Cabbage Borscht (A thick soup) (Courtesy Lawrence Fast, St. Johns International School, Vancouver)
Ingredients required: One liter or more chicken broth One head of cabbage One or two potatoes Four or five or six carrots Four or five sticks of celery Two medium size onions Two or three or four or five cloves of garlic One large can of diced tomatoes Two or three or four sprigs of fresh dill (chopped up) Pickling spices (plus whatever spices are to your taste (I use sage, thyme oregano, bay leaves, rosemary, etc.)) Salt and pepper to taste Worcester sauce to taste Olive oil
The cooking process:
Prepare the potatoes, carrots by peeling, then slicing into bite-size pieces. Wash and slice the celery into bite-sized pieces. The onions and garlic must be peeled and chopped. The cabbage should be sliced. In a large cooking pot heat enough olive oil to fry the chopped onions and garlic over medium heat. Three or four tablespoons of oil should be enough. If not, add more oil. Let the onions and garlic simmer over medium or low heat for 8 to 10 minutes. Now add one liter of chicken broth and bring to a boil. Now add the sliced potatoes, carrots and celery; bring to a boil and simmer over medium heat until vegetables are almost tender enough to eat. While the vegetables are boiling fill a spice container* and add any other spices your heart may desire. Put the spice container in the boiling soup and leave it there until the soup is finished. While the soup is simmering add salt and pepper to taste, a dash of Worcester sauce or seasoned salt or celery salt until the soup is really tasty. If the soup becomes too thick add some more chicken broth but it should be a hearty soup with plenty of vegetables. When the vegetables seem tender, add the can of tomatoes and the shredded cabbage. Again let the soup simmer over medium heat continue tasting to see whether your imagination has worked magic. Lastly, add the chopped fresh dill. When it’s done, EAT!
--- (I top it off just prior to serving with a large tablespoon of sour cream. Mmmmmmm!)
Gene McManus
GenotheGreat2003@yahoo.com
I wonder where did the current name of this article came from. Borscht does not seem like an approximation of any of the original names and the transcryption seems German to me. Is this soup really called "Borscht" in English? And if so - does anyone know where did it come from? [[User:Halibutt| Halibu tt]] 21:25, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Another possibility, and I'm guessing purely on the grounds of pronunciation, is that it is a German transcription of the name in Bulgarian, борщ (borsht). Is this a feasible explanation? -- Iceager 22:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The real transcription should be "Borshch" because that is the spelling in russian. -- 195.85.172.178 22:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)Verdulo
I grew up in Moscow during the 80s and I can't seem to recollect that there was ever a question of the cabbage being optional in Russia, and I don't really recall eating a borscht prepared with potatoes. I might've had a limited culinary experience in this instance, so do correct me if I'm wrong.
I added a comment about smetana as well. I know it's not identical to creme fraiche, but it's the closest reasonable equivalent available outside Eastern Europe. Especially in mildly Russophobic Sweden... Peter Isotalo 13:10, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)
When I visited Hong Kong a few years ago, it seemed like Borscht was extremely popular there for some reason. Is this accurate, and is there any particular explanation for it other than just the Hong Kongers liking the taste? -- Robert Merkel 1 July 2005 04:41 (UTC)
I happen to be Russian, and my parents make борщ (/borç/) all the time. I personally like to transliterate it as borsh', because that last group of letters represents only one letter and one sound. It's not a good idea though because the apostrophe is generally reserved for the soft sign, and that would be an incorrect spelling. The best spelling would probably be borshch since the letter 'щ' is understood by Russians by it's historic origin, which is Ш+Ч. There's actually a Russian joke about a German princess misspelling a two-letter word by 7 letters ('щи' compared to 'schtschi').
Anyway, the beets are the main ingredient, and the process of boiling the beets along with a bone (which takes a looong time) is what gives the soup that red colour (and delicious taste). The borshch my parents make always has potatoes, cabbage, carrots, and meat in it, but I don't really remember the other ingredients. It's ALWAYS served with sour cream. I think foreigners are the only people that refuse that option. And why the hell does this page have 'smetana' seperate from sour cream? Sour cream is the literal definition of smetana.-- 67.177.36.200 04:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
From what I've heard, you guys are all correct about the nature of the sound corresponding to this letter, except that it's actually pronounced as a long sound (from its origin as two different sounds). Benwing 04:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
As a practicing Polish speaker, I can confirm that in Polish, barszcz is said with two distinct consonants at the end. The 'cz' is a hard version of the english 'ch' and the 't' adds that quality to the 'ch'. The Russian 'щ' is always transliterated into 'szcz' in the Polish press. Gregmal ( talk) 17:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The "Russian" pronunciation in the Ukraine, (at least in Kiev where my mother came from) is "Borshch" - there is certainly no such thing as Ukrainian "Borsht" as in the picture - it would be борщ - NO "T"!! My family's version uses smoked bacon as the base, with much more cabbage than beetroot. But beetroot is essential to distinguish it from Russian "Shchi". I squeeze garlic into mine and add home made "smyetana", cultured from cream with yoghurt culture. Also, I serve it with home made rye sourdough bread. As a friend of mine said once "Borshch is not so much a recipe, as a concept". Sasha ( talk) 23:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Who cares? This edit war is LAME. -- JamesTeterenko 00:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
When I lived in Ukraine (Odessa), whenever we were served borscht we were asked if we wanted red borscht or green borscht. Obviously the red borscht is the subject of this article, but should green borscht be mentioned somewhere? (I believe it had dill in it; I don't remember exactly because I always ate the red version.) Likewise, Polish restaurants I've eaten at in the U.S. offer a choice of red borscht or white borscht. Even if the green and white versions aren't true borscht per se, it might be worth mentioning that these other non-beet-based soups are also called borscht. Thanks and cпасибо, Dmp348 22:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The key ingredients of green borscht (Ukrainian) are sorrel and NETTLE. The rest is similar to red borcsht, excepting the beet. It's a summer green coloured version, serve chilled. BTW, the foregoing receipts are wrong. By this way you can only get an uneatable and stinking slush.
I merged the polish regional borscht article in with this one as a complete copy paste with a few internal links added in. I make it its own subsection and renamed the recipies section to fit. DLPanther 21:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Please don't merge cold Borscht with Borscht. It is not the same and it is not a local variant. We have both Borscht and Cold Borscht in Lithuania. Hugo.arg ( talk) 15:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
IT IS SPELLED "BORSCHT". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.203.206.189 ( talk • contribs) 16:45, 23 July 2008
"Russian and Ukrainian: борщ, Polish: barszcz" The cyrillic letter Щщ is read in Russian and Ukrainan as "shch", in Bulgarian as "sht". Cantabo07 ( talk) 04:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
"obiad (main meal eaten in the early afternoon)" -- can't we replace this with "lunch"? If it's different, please explain what the difference is. Otherwise, we might as well replace all the English words in the article with their native transliterations. - Pgan002 ( talk) 08:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
There is a request for an article on "Baby Borscht" for WP: Food and drink that I went and set up a redir to this article for; the only info I was able to find that may relate to this as a separate dish are a borscht flavored baby food and borscht recipes using baby vegetables... I figure we leave it as a redirect and add a section in this article if there is any notability to "baby" borscht. Irontobias ( talk) 22:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Please, make a note, that only Heracleum sibiricum (Siberian hogweed) is suitable for cooking borscht. Most of other hogweeds are extremely poisonous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.195.86 ( talk) 18:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the claim that borscht is "of Ukrainian origin", this definitely needs a citation from WP:reliable sources. I have removed this claim (now twice) because it was unsupported. Based on the popularity and cultural importance of this dish among Slavic and other peoples in that geographic region, as well as its etymological history across Slavic languages (coming from the word for hogweed and hogweed soup), I have major doubts that this dish is in fact attributable to just Ukrainian origins (and that there is a general consensus on this). It was probably a regional culinary development. For example, this cookbook (admittedly, not an academic source) attributes the soup to Russian and Polish origins. If there are reliable sources to support the claim of Ukrainian origins, then please include them, but I'm going to predict that there's not really a consensus as to the origins of the dish. - Krasnoludek ( talk) 12:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
With all due respect to the Ukrainian nation, I can't stop wondering why we say that borscht has Ukrainian origin while there is no proof that Ukrainian nation or state did exist as a separate entity by the time this soup was "invented"? Yuniq ( talk) 22:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
The section on Polish barszcz claimed that parnsip is one of the vegetables added, but I am pretty sure from my own experience that parsnips (pasternak) are rare in Poland, whereas root parsley (pietruszka) is added to many Polish soups. The two vegetables look similar, and root parsley is little known in English speaking countries, hence the confusion. I have changed it. Toroboro ( talk) 23:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Today an admin moved the page from Borscht to Borsch, arguing
there is no "t" in there, either in Ukrainian or Russian - its source languages.
As has been discussed several times on this talk page, there's a reason to put the 't' in there if you use another Slavic language as a source and even if you use Ukrainian or Russian as a source. This is also not simply a question of transliteration from the original language(s) either, since the word entered English several decades ago and so already has established spellings in English. Per WP:ENGLISH, the name of the article should follow its most common name in English language references. Merriam-Webster gives its main entry as "borscht" and Dictionary.com indicates that both the Random House dictionary and the American Heritage dictionary list "borscht" as their main entry. Even if this is not enough evidence to have the article be named "borscht", it should be enough evidence that this move should not have been done without a proper move proposal and discussion. - Krasnoludek ( talk) 17:10, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Comments:
The result of the proposal was 'move per request per WP:UCN. The uncontroverted evidence provided below is that borscht, rather than borsch is the common spelling used in reliable English language sources as to both the food item and the Catskill Mountains resort area.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 13:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Borsch → Borscht — Both articles had a 't' in their names before an admin changed them without first seeking consensus, despite the history of discussion about the name in the talk page, which qualifies it as a "potentially controversial move". In the above section on Talk:Borsch, I cited three American English dictionaries that have the primary spelling as "borscht" and all references for the Borsch Belt article also spell it "borscht". Issues of transliteration from Russian/Ukrainian have been discussed on the talk page as well. Krasnoludek ( talk) 03:02, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) You suggested Google Books so the search for "cooking, borsch" in English without the word "borscht" yielded 1320 results. Doing the same search but looking for books with "cooking, borscht" and not "borsch" yielded 5830 results. Still conclusive as to English usage. (You have to restrict the search with the word "cooking" or else you get proper nouns and "borscht belt"--we're just looking for the food. You also have to look for books that have one without the other in order to eliminate books that say "Borsch, also called borscht" or "Borscht, also called borsch".) I tried a couple of different modifier words instead of "cooking" ("food", "soup") and the results were the same--"borscht" is about four times as common as "borsch". -- Taivo ( talk) 13:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I would like to see some research as to when tomatos became an ingredient. if borscht dates to before 1600, which is likely, then tomato may have been used as a substitute for beets once people started eating them in europe. if borscht dates to after that time, they would be two versions of this soup with roughly similar pedigrees.(mercurywoodrose) 76.245.45.179 ( talk) 01:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
In Cuisines of Our Peoples, William Pokhlyobkin describes the following variations of Ukrainian borsht:
— Kpalion (talk) 11:05, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
Isn't it the time to name it properly - Borshch? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abatishchev ( talk • contribs) 17:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
In Mongolia it is "universally" known and quite popular. Kdammers ( talk) 05:48, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
The photograph accompanying "cold borscht" includes what appears to be a peeled boiled potato with the bowl of soup. Is this standard? If so, is it limited to Lithuanian cuisine? -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 17:34, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be definite tendency to purge references to Russian in this article. This [10] is an excellent example.
I don't mind discussing the level of details in the lead, but I'm thoroughly annoyed that the audio file of the Russian pronunciation of the word was removed and not re-added until I noticed after seven years.
Removing linguistic references to Russian and Russian pronunciation is clearly some about nationalism, not concern for article quality. Borscht is a vital part of numerous Central and European cuisines, including Russian cuisine, which is likely the best known to the rest of the world. The Ukrainian origins of this dish should under no circumstances obscure its importance to Russians, Poles, Lithuanians, etc. I urge all users here to watch out for any and all chauvinist Ukrainian editing.
Peter Isotalo 00:53, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
An anon IP has recently used an article in the Russia Times as a source to claim that borsch is of Russian origin. Russian Times is widely known to be a Kremlin-controlled propaganda tool and, especially in these times, is used as a means to eliminate all reference to Ukrainian culture and history as separate from Russian culture and history. -- Taivo ( talk) 15:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
dear readers and contributors, I live in Romania for all my 47 years, first eating, then preparing myself this local dish by recipes learned from my mother (who was an awesome cook, like almost all romanian mothers, and she learned from my grandma, which learned from her mom and so on - cooking knowledge runs in the family here) and the appelative "borsch" - with a strong, distinct "r" - is the correct spelling of the name of this main dish, specifically without the "t" in the end, not just here in Romania, but in other 15 different countries from Eastern Europe - all my respect for jewish cuisine, though. this appelative is defined exclusively by the sour agent - a fermented cereals-based sour liquid (based on rye / whey / corn husk + flour mix, yeast added - I can post the recipe for the ones interested in it), very rich in all vitamins B, other vitamins and minerals (extracted from the husk during the fermentation).
the other recipes, including lemon juice, vinegar, sauerkraut liquid, tomatoes, unripen wax cherry fruits, green grapes and so on, are therefore named "ciorba" (pronounced like Tchaikovsky, no offence) - so the affirmation on the "en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borscht" page, regarding Romanian cuisine, which says: "Romanian gastronomy uses with no discrimination the words ciorbă, borș or, sometimes, zeamă/acritură" is utterly false. here only an ignorant housewife would use such confusion of terms.
so, to be clear: every sour soup prepared in our country starting with vegetables, with or without white / red meat, fish etc, will be called borsch only when the sour agent is the fermented liquid mentioned above. and every person who pretends to know all about it just reading online, looking from afar or visiting one of the contries / regions whose cuisine includes this specific dish is wrong. I experienced myself russian borsch recipes, with red beet, cabbage etc, so I know well what the other contributors were writing about. btw, the Ukrainian people also call it "zamă", with no "e" inside of that word.
and another thing: the name of the dish is composed using the basic word "borsch" (again, this spelling is much closer to the original word), then adding the main ingredient, as in "chicken borsch", "white bean borsch", "green beans borsch", "courgettes borsch" and so on. also, the aromatic herbs used to complete the taste of this great dish are different, according to recipe, to the main ingredient and of course according to one's particular taste: for kidney beans the housewives will use mostly thyme, for chicken, fish, potatoes or courgettes will use lovage, and so on.
please read more, talk online with people who actually live in those countries and cook in the family for dozens of years a specific dish, before posting here - take with a grain of salt the writings of authors like the one who wrote "Culture and Customs of Russia", or just think again before applying that information on every country where this dish is prepared and served on a daily basis. thank you.
Tigerlily67 ( talk) 15:20, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
References: http://www.gustos.ro/retete-culinare/cautare/bors/ and other similar cooking sites — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigerlily67 ( talk • contribs) 15:05, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
Common hogweed is the prindipal ingredient of borshch? Is this some sort of trolling?-- 128.84.124.169 ( talk) 20:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Here's what the famous Russian food writer Vilyam Pokhlyobkin wrote about the issue in his National Cuisines of Our Peoples ("our peoples" referring to the various ethnic groups of the Soviet Union):
То, что иностранцы называют борщ или вареники русскими национальными блюдами, еще можно понять и извинить, но когда выясняется, что эти сведения они почерпнули из советских кулинарных книг или из меню ресторанов, становится стыдно за наших авторов и мастеров общепита, так безграмотно пропагандирующих национальную кухню наших народов.
— V.V. Pokhlyobkin, Национальные кухни наших народов
Elsewhere in the same book, he unequivocally assigns borscht to Ukrainian cuisine:
Cреди славянских кухонь украинская пользуется широкой известностью (...) а некоторые блюда украинской кухни, например борщи и вареники, вошли в меню международной кухни.
— V.V. Pokhlyobkin, Национальные кухни наших народов
Translations:
One could understand and forgive foreigners for calling borscht or varenyky Russian national dishes, but when it turns out that they gleaned the information from Soviet cookbooks or from restaurant menus, one is embarrassed for our authors and chefs, who popularize the cuisines of our nations with such ignorance.
Among Slavic cuisines, the Ukrainian one is particularly well known, (...) and some dishes of Ukrainian cookery, such as borscht and varenyky, have entered the menu of international cuisine.
I plan to eventually work the first quote into the article, but for now let it stay here to help prevent further edit-warring over borscht's alleged Russianness. — Kpalion (talk) 09:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Borscht/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Rated Start because the article is not cited and there is no history given for the dish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanner-Christopher ( talk • contribs) 07:11, 20 April 2007 |
Substituted at 14:25, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Someone had added information saying that it is made with Sorrel and a Boiled egg. I have never heard of any Mennonite soups made with an Egg, but I have seen some other Borscht recipes with Sorrel (but not Summer Borscht). My family Mennonite, and my Mother and Grandmother have alot of mennonite recipes (community-compiled cookbooks), and I'm very familiar with alot of the soup recipes. i even did a Google search, and came up with absolutely nothing about any kind of "Summer Borscht" containing Sorrel or an Egg. every Recipe ive seen for it is Pork-broth, Potatoes, Sausage, Beet-leaves (or Chard), Dill, and Green onions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Impreziv ( talk • contribs) 04:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I visited Ukraine twice for three weeks each time. I was served borscht there about 12 times, and only twice did it have beets. The key ingredients in Ukraine seem to be either potatoes or carrots. It seemed to me that the beets were the optiional ingredient.
213.85.69.121 ( talk) 14:28, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
The following is a recipe for Ukranian borscht I obtained form a good friend of mine. We were teaching in Lithuania at the time. Often for lunch we would have Lithuanian borscht, which DOES NOT contain beets. I happened one day to mention during lunch that I would like a recipe for the Lithuanian version. I was asked if I would settle for a Ukranian version. Here it is.
How to Make Ukrainian Cabbage Borscht (A thick soup) (Courtesy Lawrence Fast, St. Johns International School, Vancouver)
Ingredients required: One liter or more chicken broth One head of cabbage One or two potatoes Four or five or six carrots Four or five sticks of celery Two medium size onions Two or three or four or five cloves of garlic One large can of diced tomatoes Two or three or four sprigs of fresh dill (chopped up) Pickling spices (plus whatever spices are to your taste (I use sage, thyme oregano, bay leaves, rosemary, etc.)) Salt and pepper to taste Worcester sauce to taste Olive oil
The cooking process:
Prepare the potatoes, carrots by peeling, then slicing into bite-size pieces. Wash and slice the celery into bite-sized pieces. The onions and garlic must be peeled and chopped. The cabbage should be sliced. In a large cooking pot heat enough olive oil to fry the chopped onions and garlic over medium heat. Three or four tablespoons of oil should be enough. If not, add more oil. Let the onions and garlic simmer over medium or low heat for 8 to 10 minutes. Now add one liter of chicken broth and bring to a boil. Now add the sliced potatoes, carrots and celery; bring to a boil and simmer over medium heat until vegetables are almost tender enough to eat. While the vegetables are boiling fill a spice container* and add any other spices your heart may desire. Put the spice container in the boiling soup and leave it there until the soup is finished. While the soup is simmering add salt and pepper to taste, a dash of Worcester sauce or seasoned salt or celery salt until the soup is really tasty. If the soup becomes too thick add some more chicken broth but it should be a hearty soup with plenty of vegetables. When the vegetables seem tender, add the can of tomatoes and the shredded cabbage. Again let the soup simmer over medium heat continue tasting to see whether your imagination has worked magic. Lastly, add the chopped fresh dill. When it’s done, EAT!
--- (I top it off just prior to serving with a large tablespoon of sour cream. Mmmmmmm!)
Gene McManus
GenotheGreat2003@yahoo.com
I wonder where did the current name of this article came from. Borscht does not seem like an approximation of any of the original names and the transcryption seems German to me. Is this soup really called "Borscht" in English? And if so - does anyone know where did it come from? [[User:Halibutt| Halibu tt]] 21:25, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Another possibility, and I'm guessing purely on the grounds of pronunciation, is that it is a German transcription of the name in Bulgarian, борщ (borsht). Is this a feasible explanation? -- Iceager 22:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The real transcription should be "Borshch" because that is the spelling in russian. -- 195.85.172.178 22:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)Verdulo
I grew up in Moscow during the 80s and I can't seem to recollect that there was ever a question of the cabbage being optional in Russia, and I don't really recall eating a borscht prepared with potatoes. I might've had a limited culinary experience in this instance, so do correct me if I'm wrong.
I added a comment about smetana as well. I know it's not identical to creme fraiche, but it's the closest reasonable equivalent available outside Eastern Europe. Especially in mildly Russophobic Sweden... Peter Isotalo 13:10, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)
When I visited Hong Kong a few years ago, it seemed like Borscht was extremely popular there for some reason. Is this accurate, and is there any particular explanation for it other than just the Hong Kongers liking the taste? -- Robert Merkel 1 July 2005 04:41 (UTC)
I happen to be Russian, and my parents make борщ (/borç/) all the time. I personally like to transliterate it as borsh', because that last group of letters represents only one letter and one sound. It's not a good idea though because the apostrophe is generally reserved for the soft sign, and that would be an incorrect spelling. The best spelling would probably be borshch since the letter 'щ' is understood by Russians by it's historic origin, which is Ш+Ч. There's actually a Russian joke about a German princess misspelling a two-letter word by 7 letters ('щи' compared to 'schtschi').
Anyway, the beets are the main ingredient, and the process of boiling the beets along with a bone (which takes a looong time) is what gives the soup that red colour (and delicious taste). The borshch my parents make always has potatoes, cabbage, carrots, and meat in it, but I don't really remember the other ingredients. It's ALWAYS served with sour cream. I think foreigners are the only people that refuse that option. And why the hell does this page have 'smetana' seperate from sour cream? Sour cream is the literal definition of smetana.-- 67.177.36.200 04:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
From what I've heard, you guys are all correct about the nature of the sound corresponding to this letter, except that it's actually pronounced as a long sound (from its origin as two different sounds). Benwing 04:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
As a practicing Polish speaker, I can confirm that in Polish, barszcz is said with two distinct consonants at the end. The 'cz' is a hard version of the english 'ch' and the 't' adds that quality to the 'ch'. The Russian 'щ' is always transliterated into 'szcz' in the Polish press. Gregmal ( talk) 17:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The "Russian" pronunciation in the Ukraine, (at least in Kiev where my mother came from) is "Borshch" - there is certainly no such thing as Ukrainian "Borsht" as in the picture - it would be борщ - NO "T"!! My family's version uses smoked bacon as the base, with much more cabbage than beetroot. But beetroot is essential to distinguish it from Russian "Shchi". I squeeze garlic into mine and add home made "smyetana", cultured from cream with yoghurt culture. Also, I serve it with home made rye sourdough bread. As a friend of mine said once "Borshch is not so much a recipe, as a concept". Sasha ( talk) 23:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Who cares? This edit war is LAME. -- JamesTeterenko 00:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
When I lived in Ukraine (Odessa), whenever we were served borscht we were asked if we wanted red borscht or green borscht. Obviously the red borscht is the subject of this article, but should green borscht be mentioned somewhere? (I believe it had dill in it; I don't remember exactly because I always ate the red version.) Likewise, Polish restaurants I've eaten at in the U.S. offer a choice of red borscht or white borscht. Even if the green and white versions aren't true borscht per se, it might be worth mentioning that these other non-beet-based soups are also called borscht. Thanks and cпасибо, Dmp348 22:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The key ingredients of green borscht (Ukrainian) are sorrel and NETTLE. The rest is similar to red borcsht, excepting the beet. It's a summer green coloured version, serve chilled. BTW, the foregoing receipts are wrong. By this way you can only get an uneatable and stinking slush.
I merged the polish regional borscht article in with this one as a complete copy paste with a few internal links added in. I make it its own subsection and renamed the recipies section to fit. DLPanther 21:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Please don't merge cold Borscht with Borscht. It is not the same and it is not a local variant. We have both Borscht and Cold Borscht in Lithuania. Hugo.arg ( talk) 15:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
IT IS SPELLED "BORSCHT". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.203.206.189 ( talk • contribs) 16:45, 23 July 2008
"Russian and Ukrainian: борщ, Polish: barszcz" The cyrillic letter Щщ is read in Russian and Ukrainan as "shch", in Bulgarian as "sht". Cantabo07 ( talk) 04:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
"obiad (main meal eaten in the early afternoon)" -- can't we replace this with "lunch"? If it's different, please explain what the difference is. Otherwise, we might as well replace all the English words in the article with their native transliterations. - Pgan002 ( talk) 08:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
There is a request for an article on "Baby Borscht" for WP: Food and drink that I went and set up a redir to this article for; the only info I was able to find that may relate to this as a separate dish are a borscht flavored baby food and borscht recipes using baby vegetables... I figure we leave it as a redirect and add a section in this article if there is any notability to "baby" borscht. Irontobias ( talk) 22:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Please, make a note, that only Heracleum sibiricum (Siberian hogweed) is suitable for cooking borscht. Most of other hogweeds are extremely poisonous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.195.86 ( talk) 18:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the claim that borscht is "of Ukrainian origin", this definitely needs a citation from WP:reliable sources. I have removed this claim (now twice) because it was unsupported. Based on the popularity and cultural importance of this dish among Slavic and other peoples in that geographic region, as well as its etymological history across Slavic languages (coming from the word for hogweed and hogweed soup), I have major doubts that this dish is in fact attributable to just Ukrainian origins (and that there is a general consensus on this). It was probably a regional culinary development. For example, this cookbook (admittedly, not an academic source) attributes the soup to Russian and Polish origins. If there are reliable sources to support the claim of Ukrainian origins, then please include them, but I'm going to predict that there's not really a consensus as to the origins of the dish. - Krasnoludek ( talk) 12:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
With all due respect to the Ukrainian nation, I can't stop wondering why we say that borscht has Ukrainian origin while there is no proof that Ukrainian nation or state did exist as a separate entity by the time this soup was "invented"? Yuniq ( talk) 22:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
The section on Polish barszcz claimed that parnsip is one of the vegetables added, but I am pretty sure from my own experience that parsnips (pasternak) are rare in Poland, whereas root parsley (pietruszka) is added to many Polish soups. The two vegetables look similar, and root parsley is little known in English speaking countries, hence the confusion. I have changed it. Toroboro ( talk) 23:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Today an admin moved the page from Borscht to Borsch, arguing
there is no "t" in there, either in Ukrainian or Russian - its source languages.
As has been discussed several times on this talk page, there's a reason to put the 't' in there if you use another Slavic language as a source and even if you use Ukrainian or Russian as a source. This is also not simply a question of transliteration from the original language(s) either, since the word entered English several decades ago and so already has established spellings in English. Per WP:ENGLISH, the name of the article should follow its most common name in English language references. Merriam-Webster gives its main entry as "borscht" and Dictionary.com indicates that both the Random House dictionary and the American Heritage dictionary list "borscht" as their main entry. Even if this is not enough evidence to have the article be named "borscht", it should be enough evidence that this move should not have been done without a proper move proposal and discussion. - Krasnoludek ( talk) 17:10, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Comments:
The result of the proposal was 'move per request per WP:UCN. The uncontroverted evidence provided below is that borscht, rather than borsch is the common spelling used in reliable English language sources as to both the food item and the Catskill Mountains resort area.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 13:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Borsch → Borscht — Both articles had a 't' in their names before an admin changed them without first seeking consensus, despite the history of discussion about the name in the talk page, which qualifies it as a "potentially controversial move". In the above section on Talk:Borsch, I cited three American English dictionaries that have the primary spelling as "borscht" and all references for the Borsch Belt article also spell it "borscht". Issues of transliteration from Russian/Ukrainian have been discussed on the talk page as well. Krasnoludek ( talk) 03:02, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) You suggested Google Books so the search for "cooking, borsch" in English without the word "borscht" yielded 1320 results. Doing the same search but looking for books with "cooking, borscht" and not "borsch" yielded 5830 results. Still conclusive as to English usage. (You have to restrict the search with the word "cooking" or else you get proper nouns and "borscht belt"--we're just looking for the food. You also have to look for books that have one without the other in order to eliminate books that say "Borsch, also called borscht" or "Borscht, also called borsch".) I tried a couple of different modifier words instead of "cooking" ("food", "soup") and the results were the same--"borscht" is about four times as common as "borsch". -- Taivo ( talk) 13:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I would like to see some research as to when tomatos became an ingredient. if borscht dates to before 1600, which is likely, then tomato may have been used as a substitute for beets once people started eating them in europe. if borscht dates to after that time, they would be two versions of this soup with roughly similar pedigrees.(mercurywoodrose) 76.245.45.179 ( talk) 01:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
In Cuisines of Our Peoples, William Pokhlyobkin describes the following variations of Ukrainian borsht:
— Kpalion (talk) 11:05, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
Isn't it the time to name it properly - Borshch? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abatishchev ( talk • contribs) 17:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
In Mongolia it is "universally" known and quite popular. Kdammers ( talk) 05:48, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
The photograph accompanying "cold borscht" includes what appears to be a peeled boiled potato with the bowl of soup. Is this standard? If so, is it limited to Lithuanian cuisine? -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 17:34, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be definite tendency to purge references to Russian in this article. This [10] is an excellent example.
I don't mind discussing the level of details in the lead, but I'm thoroughly annoyed that the audio file of the Russian pronunciation of the word was removed and not re-added until I noticed after seven years.
Removing linguistic references to Russian and Russian pronunciation is clearly some about nationalism, not concern for article quality. Borscht is a vital part of numerous Central and European cuisines, including Russian cuisine, which is likely the best known to the rest of the world. The Ukrainian origins of this dish should under no circumstances obscure its importance to Russians, Poles, Lithuanians, etc. I urge all users here to watch out for any and all chauvinist Ukrainian editing.
Peter Isotalo 00:53, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
An anon IP has recently used an article in the Russia Times as a source to claim that borsch is of Russian origin. Russian Times is widely known to be a Kremlin-controlled propaganda tool and, especially in these times, is used as a means to eliminate all reference to Ukrainian culture and history as separate from Russian culture and history. -- Taivo ( talk) 15:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
dear readers and contributors, I live in Romania for all my 47 years, first eating, then preparing myself this local dish by recipes learned from my mother (who was an awesome cook, like almost all romanian mothers, and she learned from my grandma, which learned from her mom and so on - cooking knowledge runs in the family here) and the appelative "borsch" - with a strong, distinct "r" - is the correct spelling of the name of this main dish, specifically without the "t" in the end, not just here in Romania, but in other 15 different countries from Eastern Europe - all my respect for jewish cuisine, though. this appelative is defined exclusively by the sour agent - a fermented cereals-based sour liquid (based on rye / whey / corn husk + flour mix, yeast added - I can post the recipe for the ones interested in it), very rich in all vitamins B, other vitamins and minerals (extracted from the husk during the fermentation).
the other recipes, including lemon juice, vinegar, sauerkraut liquid, tomatoes, unripen wax cherry fruits, green grapes and so on, are therefore named "ciorba" (pronounced like Tchaikovsky, no offence) - so the affirmation on the "en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borscht" page, regarding Romanian cuisine, which says: "Romanian gastronomy uses with no discrimination the words ciorbă, borș or, sometimes, zeamă/acritură" is utterly false. here only an ignorant housewife would use such confusion of terms.
so, to be clear: every sour soup prepared in our country starting with vegetables, with or without white / red meat, fish etc, will be called borsch only when the sour agent is the fermented liquid mentioned above. and every person who pretends to know all about it just reading online, looking from afar or visiting one of the contries / regions whose cuisine includes this specific dish is wrong. I experienced myself russian borsch recipes, with red beet, cabbage etc, so I know well what the other contributors were writing about. btw, the Ukrainian people also call it "zamă", with no "e" inside of that word.
and another thing: the name of the dish is composed using the basic word "borsch" (again, this spelling is much closer to the original word), then adding the main ingredient, as in "chicken borsch", "white bean borsch", "green beans borsch", "courgettes borsch" and so on. also, the aromatic herbs used to complete the taste of this great dish are different, according to recipe, to the main ingredient and of course according to one's particular taste: for kidney beans the housewives will use mostly thyme, for chicken, fish, potatoes or courgettes will use lovage, and so on.
please read more, talk online with people who actually live in those countries and cook in the family for dozens of years a specific dish, before posting here - take with a grain of salt the writings of authors like the one who wrote "Culture and Customs of Russia", or just think again before applying that information on every country where this dish is prepared and served on a daily basis. thank you.
Tigerlily67 ( talk) 15:20, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
References: http://www.gustos.ro/retete-culinare/cautare/bors/ and other similar cooking sites — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigerlily67 ( talk • contribs) 15:05, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
Common hogweed is the prindipal ingredient of borshch? Is this some sort of trolling?-- 128.84.124.169 ( talk) 20:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Here's what the famous Russian food writer Vilyam Pokhlyobkin wrote about the issue in his National Cuisines of Our Peoples ("our peoples" referring to the various ethnic groups of the Soviet Union):
То, что иностранцы называют борщ или вареники русскими национальными блюдами, еще можно понять и извинить, но когда выясняется, что эти сведения они почерпнули из советских кулинарных книг или из меню ресторанов, становится стыдно за наших авторов и мастеров общепита, так безграмотно пропагандирующих национальную кухню наших народов.
— V.V. Pokhlyobkin, Национальные кухни наших народов
Elsewhere in the same book, he unequivocally assigns borscht to Ukrainian cuisine:
Cреди славянских кухонь украинская пользуется широкой известностью (...) а некоторые блюда украинской кухни, например борщи и вареники, вошли в меню международной кухни.
— V.V. Pokhlyobkin, Национальные кухни наших народов
Translations:
One could understand and forgive foreigners for calling borscht or varenyky Russian national dishes, but when it turns out that they gleaned the information from Soviet cookbooks or from restaurant menus, one is embarrassed for our authors and chefs, who popularize the cuisines of our nations with such ignorance.
Among Slavic cuisines, the Ukrainian one is particularly well known, (...) and some dishes of Ukrainian cookery, such as borscht and varenyky, have entered the menu of international cuisine.
I plan to eventually work the first quote into the article, but for now let it stay here to help prevent further edit-warring over borscht's alleged Russianness. — Kpalion (talk) 09:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
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The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Borscht/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Rated Start because the article is not cited and there is no history given for the dish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanner-Christopher ( talk • contribs) 07:11, 20 April 2007 |
Substituted at 14:25, 1 May 2016 (UTC)