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Working of political machinery? I hope noone will object the deletion of this sentence. Red Plum 23:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
1) Would the person who added "Boy Soprano" to the Roles-Fyodor-Voice section (or anyone else for that matter) please give evidence that the composer provided this option? It may be an occasional practice (the Rostropovich recording is the only example of which I am aware), however unless the composer sanctioned this practice in written form, it should not be mentioned, IMHO. Ivan Velikii 18:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
2) I have reverted an edit made to add "boy soprano" to the roles table for the second time, and will continue to do so until the anonymous editor quotes a musicological authority who provides a historical justification for this practice. Ivan Velikii
Regarding edit by Pompervoor: Undid your revision removing duplicated scene (Yurodiviy & Urchins) from synopsis. That is the way the composer left the score. Perhaps you are making the synopsis conform to the cut version of Act 4, which is used only when including the "St. Basil's Scene" and "Kromi Scene" in the same performance (see under Performance Practice) Ivan Velikii 07:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Please don't change the spelling of the Russian names in this article, unless you at least identify yourself and provide a very good reason. I have reverted the edits of Fyodor to Feodor, Kseniya to Xenia, and (oddly) Mityukha to Mitiukha. I did change the -skiy suffixes to the conventional -sky as I can see I am fighting a losing battle on that front. However, Kseniya, Fyodor, and Mityukha are superior to Xenia, Feodor, and Mitiukha, because they are:
1) More Russian
2) More accurate transliterations
3) More accurate pronunciations
Perhaps these changes were made to conform to the spellings often encountered in recording librettos, or are more traditional. These are both poor reasons to change these spellings.
I know 'Fyodor' is sometimes pronounced with 3 syllables (even in the opera by the title character!) but the 2-syllable version is more consistent. And yes, 'Xenia' was perhaps derived from a Greek/Byzantine name which used an 'x', but anyone can see the Russian version has a 'k' at the beginning ('Aleksandr' is superior to 'Alexander' for similar reasons). And 'Mitiukha' can acquire a 4th syllable with this spelling (BTW: Can anyone explain why the chorus leaves off the 3rd syllable in the 1st scene?)
I have been working on this article for some time, and am personally responsible for more than 99% of the text (and all the pictures) as it now stands. I think that entitles me to some latitude in small matters of spelling.
With all the lacunae in Wikipedia, I think there are better places to make contributions or edits, unless you have something really important to say about this work. Ivan Velikii 06:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, Tchaikovsky has made some comments concerning Boris Godunov, and on Mussorgsky in general, and vice versa. Does anyone can quote? AdamChapman 18:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The article puts Marina as a mezzo-soprano. I know her role is quite low for a soprano, and that in Rimsky-Korsakov's score she is a mezzo indeed, but originally the part was written for Julia Platnova, who was I believe a soprano. Moreover, the part has also been sung by sopranos afterwards, like Vishnevskaya, who recorded both Rimsky's version and the original. So is it truly a mezzo role, or soprano, or both? AdamChapman 15:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
It's written in he article that "Boris Godunov is essentially a number opera". There are indeed numbers in the opera, but I think that calling it a number opera is exaggerated. AdamChapman 15:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I will be happy if someone could add information about the performance history outside Russia. I mean premieres in France, USA, UK, etc. It will be also nice if someone can provide with some of the critical receptions of these performances. AdamChapman ( talk) 19:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Why all instruments are with caps like Oboe, English horn, and not oboe, english horn, etc.? OboeCrack ( talk) 21:59, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I removed recent additions to the Performance History section, for the following reasons:
Finally, my actions can always be reversed by majority rule. Although I reverse a lot of changes, most of my actions are justifiable. I do not have a lock on this page. --Ivan Velikii
I removed the recent addition of Acts/Scenes to the synopsis for the following reasons:
71.111.28.14 ( talk) 09:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC) Ivan Velikii
An editor cut the last paragraph of "performance practice", the one stating that conflating the two versions of the opera and restoring all cuts (creating the so-called "super-saturated" version) has negative consequences.
I will address the issue of leitmotiv deployment in another section of the article, and will link the material to this paragraph for more clarification. This is a fascinating aspect of Boris Godunov and deserves more discussion, not cutting. This is one of the more unjustifiable edits to this article I have seen in a while. --Ivan Velikii —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.19.28 ( talk) 01:21, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I made the edits in question, and I stand by them, although a compromise can probably be devised. I don't think the fact that the paragraph was sourced changes the fact that they are unsuitably editorial and subjective in terms of why the conflation is "negative." In particular, the statement about the "overexposure" of the Dmitri leitmotiv is entirely personal opinion. How can one objectively determine "overexposure" to a musical theme? Considering the St. Basil scene doesn't even actually have the Dmitri leitmotiv stated properly (It's only barely noticeable for a moment in an altered form in the men's chorus that opens the scene), I can easily make the case there is no such "overexposure" there. Also, the paragraph describing the positive aspects of conflation is careful enough to denote it's a matter of subjective opinion ("This practice is popular because...," denoting public taste as the justification). So if the last paragraph even said something to the effect of, "some critics of the conflated version argue that...," I'd find it better, but such opinions should not be stated in the voice of the article itself. I don't believe the Wikipedia article should be dictating to the reader what is or isn't "regrettable" when it comes to musical tastes. As for an expanded section on the leitmotiv deployment in the opera, I'd love to see that, as I've read others who have described it more as a haphazard used of "mottos" that the composer himself came to realize weren't particularly important (Forman). Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.187.255 ( talk) 07:11, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Now, after having become acquainted with this word and reading what Taruskin had to say about it, it strikes me that we should also include the arguments in favour of conflation: their thesis is that Mussorgsky did not know what he was doing, and I find myself agreeing with it. Some are to be found in the booklet accompanying the first recording of Mussorgsky's original, conducted by Semkow: I don't have it to hand right now, but one important reason given was that the St. Basil's scene ties together many of the opera's disparate threads (focusing in turn on the people, then the Simpleton, then Boris, and then the Simpleton again, IIRC), and that the lament of the yurodivy in the Kromy scene is more effective (certainly it has much greater pathos!) as a reprise. The first time it seems to predict what will happen if Boris continues as ruler; then the second time we find out that it was actually predicting the chaos Russia would be thrown into by his death.
I can think of a few more, incidentally, and will go look for sources for them when I have the time – at least, if anybody else realised this. I cannot believe that the cuts in the Novodevichy Scene and the Cell Scene were undertaken by Mussorgsky willingly; but then again Stasov thought he was spineless when he submitted to all of Nápravnik's cuts, so who knows. The simple fact is that they make nonsense of the action: not even Gergiev's recording of the 1872 dares to take the cut in the Novodevichy Scene anyway, although unfortunately it does take the cut in the Cell Scene. With the cuts the crowd just appears in the next scene at Boris' coronation without explanation; and, even worse, after Pimen's historical narration regarding the Tsars Ivan and Feodor, he mentions how the Russian people had sinned by putting a regicide on the throne of Russia, and just when everything is pointing to a historical narration of that murder, we skip over it and the whole climax of the rather quiet and restrained Cell Scene is gone.
I would even make the case similarly that Mussorgsky, whether intentionally or not, basically vandalised his own work with the cuts: the added material in the 1872 revision shows his great musical understanding, so this must have been a case of second-guessing in a fit of self-doubt in the face of opposition. (Which is more common than one might dare to expect: consider all the disfigurements Schumann did to his earlier works late in life.) A case in point is the hilariously complicated significance of the Dmitry motive Taruskin argues for. Perhaps a literature-minded individual, or one concerned with underscoring the illegitimacy of the false Dmitry's rule, might have suggested to Mussorgsky to clarify the significance of that motive by making it always refer to the Pretender, except in Boris' mind where it refers to the murdered Tsarevich, but no one listens to music like that. Music is not a language like English or Russian is: you cannot tell the listener who is being referred to. A motive inherently suggests other motives in some sort of section of the space of all possible motives (it can after all be distorted in several ways while keeping its shape), and it simply suggests a character at the most rather than being his signature. (In Khovanshchina Mussorgsky will create chains of motives connected to each other so wide-ranging that one is still able to hear snatches of the Dawn in the immolation scene at the very end, even though one would naïvely note that the two events are very different.) But, most importantly, the distinction is pointless and ridiculous given that it is not just Boris who confuses the two. The vagabonds in the Kromy Scene clearly believe that Grigory Otrepyev is the Tsarevich Dmitry, and that does not stop the motive from being used.
As for the symmetrical scene structure of the revised version, it seems to fall apart when one considers that the False Dmitry does not actually appear in one of the scenes in which the character focus is said to be on him: Act 3, Scene 1. A much more sensible candidate for the character focus of that scene would actually be Marina, given that we get a very clear picture of her from her soliloquy; at least, that takes care of the first half. The second half seems to be more focused on Rangoni, as we are then shown what he is up to with his machinations.
But, I really wonder if anyone has actually noticed this and written about it; but I will look for such sources. Double sharp ( talk) 15:17, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
The format was changed to reflect these guidelines found in all other opera articles. The arbitrary revert has been re-reverted. Do not make any further changes without discussing your reasons here. Viva-Verdi ( talk) 00:39, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
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The section is full of assertions without any sources. HandsomeMrToad ( talk) 02:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
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Working of political machinery? I hope noone will object the deletion of this sentence. Red Plum 23:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
1) Would the person who added "Boy Soprano" to the Roles-Fyodor-Voice section (or anyone else for that matter) please give evidence that the composer provided this option? It may be an occasional practice (the Rostropovich recording is the only example of which I am aware), however unless the composer sanctioned this practice in written form, it should not be mentioned, IMHO. Ivan Velikii 18:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
2) I have reverted an edit made to add "boy soprano" to the roles table for the second time, and will continue to do so until the anonymous editor quotes a musicological authority who provides a historical justification for this practice. Ivan Velikii
Regarding edit by Pompervoor: Undid your revision removing duplicated scene (Yurodiviy & Urchins) from synopsis. That is the way the composer left the score. Perhaps you are making the synopsis conform to the cut version of Act 4, which is used only when including the "St. Basil's Scene" and "Kromi Scene" in the same performance (see under Performance Practice) Ivan Velikii 07:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Please don't change the spelling of the Russian names in this article, unless you at least identify yourself and provide a very good reason. I have reverted the edits of Fyodor to Feodor, Kseniya to Xenia, and (oddly) Mityukha to Mitiukha. I did change the -skiy suffixes to the conventional -sky as I can see I am fighting a losing battle on that front. However, Kseniya, Fyodor, and Mityukha are superior to Xenia, Feodor, and Mitiukha, because they are:
1) More Russian
2) More accurate transliterations
3) More accurate pronunciations
Perhaps these changes were made to conform to the spellings often encountered in recording librettos, or are more traditional. These are both poor reasons to change these spellings.
I know 'Fyodor' is sometimes pronounced with 3 syllables (even in the opera by the title character!) but the 2-syllable version is more consistent. And yes, 'Xenia' was perhaps derived from a Greek/Byzantine name which used an 'x', but anyone can see the Russian version has a 'k' at the beginning ('Aleksandr' is superior to 'Alexander' for similar reasons). And 'Mitiukha' can acquire a 4th syllable with this spelling (BTW: Can anyone explain why the chorus leaves off the 3rd syllable in the 1st scene?)
I have been working on this article for some time, and am personally responsible for more than 99% of the text (and all the pictures) as it now stands. I think that entitles me to some latitude in small matters of spelling.
With all the lacunae in Wikipedia, I think there are better places to make contributions or edits, unless you have something really important to say about this work. Ivan Velikii 06:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, Tchaikovsky has made some comments concerning Boris Godunov, and on Mussorgsky in general, and vice versa. Does anyone can quote? AdamChapman 18:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The article puts Marina as a mezzo-soprano. I know her role is quite low for a soprano, and that in Rimsky-Korsakov's score she is a mezzo indeed, but originally the part was written for Julia Platnova, who was I believe a soprano. Moreover, the part has also been sung by sopranos afterwards, like Vishnevskaya, who recorded both Rimsky's version and the original. So is it truly a mezzo role, or soprano, or both? AdamChapman 15:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
It's written in he article that "Boris Godunov is essentially a number opera". There are indeed numbers in the opera, but I think that calling it a number opera is exaggerated. AdamChapman 15:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I will be happy if someone could add information about the performance history outside Russia. I mean premieres in France, USA, UK, etc. It will be also nice if someone can provide with some of the critical receptions of these performances. AdamChapman ( talk) 19:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Why all instruments are with caps like Oboe, English horn, and not oboe, english horn, etc.? OboeCrack ( talk) 21:59, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I removed recent additions to the Performance History section, for the following reasons:
Finally, my actions can always be reversed by majority rule. Although I reverse a lot of changes, most of my actions are justifiable. I do not have a lock on this page. --Ivan Velikii
I removed the recent addition of Acts/Scenes to the synopsis for the following reasons:
71.111.28.14 ( talk) 09:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC) Ivan Velikii
An editor cut the last paragraph of "performance practice", the one stating that conflating the two versions of the opera and restoring all cuts (creating the so-called "super-saturated" version) has negative consequences.
I will address the issue of leitmotiv deployment in another section of the article, and will link the material to this paragraph for more clarification. This is a fascinating aspect of Boris Godunov and deserves more discussion, not cutting. This is one of the more unjustifiable edits to this article I have seen in a while. --Ivan Velikii —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.19.28 ( talk) 01:21, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I made the edits in question, and I stand by them, although a compromise can probably be devised. I don't think the fact that the paragraph was sourced changes the fact that they are unsuitably editorial and subjective in terms of why the conflation is "negative." In particular, the statement about the "overexposure" of the Dmitri leitmotiv is entirely personal opinion. How can one objectively determine "overexposure" to a musical theme? Considering the St. Basil scene doesn't even actually have the Dmitri leitmotiv stated properly (It's only barely noticeable for a moment in an altered form in the men's chorus that opens the scene), I can easily make the case there is no such "overexposure" there. Also, the paragraph describing the positive aspects of conflation is careful enough to denote it's a matter of subjective opinion ("This practice is popular because...," denoting public taste as the justification). So if the last paragraph even said something to the effect of, "some critics of the conflated version argue that...," I'd find it better, but such opinions should not be stated in the voice of the article itself. I don't believe the Wikipedia article should be dictating to the reader what is or isn't "regrettable" when it comes to musical tastes. As for an expanded section on the leitmotiv deployment in the opera, I'd love to see that, as I've read others who have described it more as a haphazard used of "mottos" that the composer himself came to realize weren't particularly important (Forman). Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.187.255 ( talk) 07:11, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Now, after having become acquainted with this word and reading what Taruskin had to say about it, it strikes me that we should also include the arguments in favour of conflation: their thesis is that Mussorgsky did not know what he was doing, and I find myself agreeing with it. Some are to be found in the booklet accompanying the first recording of Mussorgsky's original, conducted by Semkow: I don't have it to hand right now, but one important reason given was that the St. Basil's scene ties together many of the opera's disparate threads (focusing in turn on the people, then the Simpleton, then Boris, and then the Simpleton again, IIRC), and that the lament of the yurodivy in the Kromy scene is more effective (certainly it has much greater pathos!) as a reprise. The first time it seems to predict what will happen if Boris continues as ruler; then the second time we find out that it was actually predicting the chaos Russia would be thrown into by his death.
I can think of a few more, incidentally, and will go look for sources for them when I have the time – at least, if anybody else realised this. I cannot believe that the cuts in the Novodevichy Scene and the Cell Scene were undertaken by Mussorgsky willingly; but then again Stasov thought he was spineless when he submitted to all of Nápravnik's cuts, so who knows. The simple fact is that they make nonsense of the action: not even Gergiev's recording of the 1872 dares to take the cut in the Novodevichy Scene anyway, although unfortunately it does take the cut in the Cell Scene. With the cuts the crowd just appears in the next scene at Boris' coronation without explanation; and, even worse, after Pimen's historical narration regarding the Tsars Ivan and Feodor, he mentions how the Russian people had sinned by putting a regicide on the throne of Russia, and just when everything is pointing to a historical narration of that murder, we skip over it and the whole climax of the rather quiet and restrained Cell Scene is gone.
I would even make the case similarly that Mussorgsky, whether intentionally or not, basically vandalised his own work with the cuts: the added material in the 1872 revision shows his great musical understanding, so this must have been a case of second-guessing in a fit of self-doubt in the face of opposition. (Which is more common than one might dare to expect: consider all the disfigurements Schumann did to his earlier works late in life.) A case in point is the hilariously complicated significance of the Dmitry motive Taruskin argues for. Perhaps a literature-minded individual, or one concerned with underscoring the illegitimacy of the false Dmitry's rule, might have suggested to Mussorgsky to clarify the significance of that motive by making it always refer to the Pretender, except in Boris' mind where it refers to the murdered Tsarevich, but no one listens to music like that. Music is not a language like English or Russian is: you cannot tell the listener who is being referred to. A motive inherently suggests other motives in some sort of section of the space of all possible motives (it can after all be distorted in several ways while keeping its shape), and it simply suggests a character at the most rather than being his signature. (In Khovanshchina Mussorgsky will create chains of motives connected to each other so wide-ranging that one is still able to hear snatches of the Dawn in the immolation scene at the very end, even though one would naïvely note that the two events are very different.) But, most importantly, the distinction is pointless and ridiculous given that it is not just Boris who confuses the two. The vagabonds in the Kromy Scene clearly believe that Grigory Otrepyev is the Tsarevich Dmitry, and that does not stop the motive from being used.
As for the symmetrical scene structure of the revised version, it seems to fall apart when one considers that the False Dmitry does not actually appear in one of the scenes in which the character focus is said to be on him: Act 3, Scene 1. A much more sensible candidate for the character focus of that scene would actually be Marina, given that we get a very clear picture of her from her soliloquy; at least, that takes care of the first half. The second half seems to be more focused on Rangoni, as we are then shown what he is up to with his machinations.
But, I really wonder if anyone has actually noticed this and written about it; but I will look for such sources. Double sharp ( talk) 15:17, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
The format was changed to reflect these guidelines found in all other opera articles. The arbitrary revert has been re-reverted. Do not make any further changes without discussing your reasons here. Viva-Verdi ( talk) 00:39, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
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The section is full of assertions without any sources. HandsomeMrToad ( talk) 02:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)