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The Borg think they are perfect yet they seem unaware of The Q. I emailed a long message about this to a friend of Jeri Ryan and a year later Q's son met Seven of Nine on an episode of voyager. Yet, so far The Borg Queen has never met any of The Q and she seems unaware that they exist and are impossible for the borg to do anything about. I think this must be noted somewhere. Thodin 21:38, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Q: If the Continuum's told you once, they've told you a thousand times, Junior...DON'T PROVOKE THE BORG!! - Lordraydens 08:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, yes they would know about the Continuum, they assimilated Picard after all 66.189.90.207 15:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I googled this phrase and all I got were half dozen copies of this exact article on various other free encyclopedias.
"The Borg, with their frightening appearance, immense power, and most importantly a no-nonsense, totally sinister motive became the signature villains for the Next Generation era of Star Trek. Its strongest definition is most probably the fearful Luddite prophecy."
so what the hell is a Luddite prophecy? Vroman
Hello there. I've added the Reavers, the nomadic cannibals from Firefly into the "See Also" section. They're not exactly the same as the Borg, nor am I aware of what the similarities are (Haven't seen much Trek), but from what I can tell, they're definitely similar. Hydragon 08:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to bring up that my adiition of Death's Head II to this section should not have been removed, as the two concepts are similar. The Death's Head II, as I mentioned in that article addition, is similar yet different, comparable to the Borg in his existence and the fact that he does in fact assimilate others, but is not a collective in the way the Borg are.
While Death's Head II is in most way opposite to the Borg, he IS a cyborg which uses assimilation in order to gain new skills. Which is among the things listed in that edit. I placed it in the see also section because of the similarities between the two, such as the fact that both are collectives, both assimilate others, and of course, both adapt to attacks from opponents. The differences are that Death's Head II is a singular being containing multiple minds and that he is a passionate and emotional being. This was all in that edit. I have never seen any of the other things mentioned in the see also section, and as even the editor who placed the Reavers on the list states, that edit does not truly relate to the Borg in terms of comparable, if not copmpletely similar concepts. Just figured I'd point this out, as that feels like a double standard to me.
This section has been deleted many times. The greatest contribution of Wikipedia is to free speech. Unfortunately there are always those that wish to stifle it. To give in to attempts to censor uncomfortable truths and to silence opinions is to submit to those repressive forces that Wikipedia seeks to defeat. If you disagree with this article then write a rebuttal and let the force of your argument show through instead of simply deleting it. Evil succeeds where good men do nothing.
Ideology Many modern commentators have drawn a comparison between the Borg and the ideology of Al Qaeda and fundamentalist Islam. Just as the avowed aim of the borg is to assimilate all non-borg civilisations, so fanatical Muslims desire to make the whole world Islam, by force if necessary. Both the Borg and radical Islam believe not only that other cultures should be assimilated into their own, but that peaceful co-existance with those cultures who refuse cannot be counternanced. It should also to be noted that very few Borg are ever de-assimilated; in a similar way that in radical Islam, the price for converting to another faith is death, so very few convert out.
Capabilities Like modern Islamic terrorism, the Borg are equipped not only with an unshakeable ideology but a decentralised structure with high levels of redundancy that makes them incredibly difficult to defeat. They can adapt very rapidly to measures opponents devise to defeat them, and learn quickly from their adversaries tactics and weaknesses.In a similar way one sees That you should convert or suffer the consequences in this life or the next.
The Borg most strongly resembled radical Islam in their first incarnations. Most Star Trek fans consider the early Borg to be more powerful and truly implacable enemies than they have subsequently become. For instance, in their first encounter with the Borg in Q Who, the Next Generation crew initially see the Borg as another interesting species to study and to engage with, naivelly confident even after the Enterprise is attacked that the Borg will respond to reason once they understand them. This can be read in retrospect as naive western liberal politics coming up against the resolute implacability of Islam. Later in "The Best of Both Worlds" this naitvete is disabused and the Borg are presented an as out and out threat to the very survival of the Federation's way of life,s s striking at its very centre. The creation of the "Borg Queen" has been a rather futile effort at humanising the Borg. The fundimental point here is that the borg are not human and attitute is as unacceptible as it is non-negotiable. A similar state of affairs exists between the West and radical Islam.
I personally think that the comparisons between the Borg and Islam should be removed entirely, particularly in the view that the Al Queda wasn't really big in world news during the time the Borg were conceived.-- Vercalos 17:58, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Some flaws with the post:
-- Abelani 2:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I will try to reply to critisms point by point.
Firstly, I am quite happy to correct the grammatical errors and post it in a different section of the article; however I fear that this will not really change your opinion of the article.
Two, your comments that the borg seek to assimilate/convert and not to kill; I would be happy to remove the references to killing. For it is the avowed aim of all true Muslims that the whole world should become muslim. A uniform world of conformity; a Borg ideal.
What I try to make clear is that the article refers to the initial incarnation of the Borg. That implacable, non-negotiable entity that equates with a philosophy that sees all other religions as inferior and ripe for conversion. As this philosophy is so far removed from the norms of freedom of religion that we cherish the writers naturally amended this initial into a form people could more readily identify. A more negotiable, more understandable, more liberal form. And you’re right this has less relevance to radical Islam.
No Muslim country is a signatory to the UN convention on the freedom of religion. Why is this? This is because in Islam the price for converting out of Islam is death. Indeed one receives a reward in the afterlife for killing members of ones family that perform such apostasy. In a similar way few convert from being borg.
I am not saying that the writers when they first created the Borg meant to create an analogy to Islam. Nonetheless in its initial incarnation the Borg were emblematic of radical islam.
So finally, if I amend the grammatical errors, remove the references to killing, make it clear that it refers to the first form/impression of the Borg and site it near the cultural allusions section of the article will you allow it to be included. Or is the actual problem the subject matter? Free speech is total or it is nothing at all. Unfortunately radical Muslims have threatened, cajoled, and silenced anyone who dares to make any direct criticism of Islam. This has resulted in a climate of fear where comedians will refuse to make any jokes about Islam after the death threat issued against Salman Rushdie in the early 90’s. Salman Rushdie wrote a fictional book about the birth of islam. Film makers make no films directly criticising islam, after the killing of Theo Van Gogh. Van Gogh made a film criticising the treatment of women under islam. He was stabbed to death by a muslim.
I don’t know whether or not you’re a muslim. I don’t know whether or criticism of my article is due to the causes listed in your entry or due to the fact that I criticised islam. Whether or not you feel that islam is beyond criticism or you fear Wikipedia will receive a fatwa. But silencing an opinion you disagree with is something that I would never do. For although I may disagree or have distain for your opinion I will always defend your right to hold it.
Now that we actually do have a conversation going on the topic, anybody object to my unprotecting the article in about one and a half hours (if I don't fall asleep before then)? -- Nlu 23:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I strongly believe the borg communicate with machine language fundementaly. -- Cool Cat Talk| @ 12:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
So much of so many Star Trek races' "histories" are wrapped up in noncanon and fanfics and what have you that it's virtually impossible to be both canonical and comprehensive while satisfying inquizitive minds. However, a lot of the speculation of the origins of the Borg reads like the What If series. Unreconcilable time travel schemes? Megatron City? Conjecture in here, solidify out there. -Unregistered User
Perhaps. However, there is indeed a fanfiction in which the Borg capture and assimilate Megatron, which at one point was available over the internet. And while conjecture is certainly interesting to read, in this case, I had posted that particular passage, along with the Death's head II passage (which DOES in fact relate to the Borg as it is a semi-similar concept, though a study in reversal in terms of his differences from them), because it is a suggestion of how some fans might interpret the 'machine world' to be, given that the Borg's centrul hub resembvles nothing even similar to an actual planet. PlaneTOID, perhaps, but not a planet, whereas V'Ger was said to have been pulled into the Machine Planet via is't gravity. We know that Cybertron has gravity, and so it is a source of possibility that may be explored by fanfiction writers, even if such has not happened yet. After all, historically speaking, the events of Beast Wars are not completely historically possible because the original Voyager probe was launched before the Transformers themselves awoke aboard the ark when Mt. Saint Hilary erupted in 1984.
The Borg do not use telepathy. As Cybernetic-Organic entites, they use technology. As was seen in Voyager, they blocked their signals to Seven of Nine by shutting off her sub-space radio connection (or something radio). They are not telepathic. If there is no dissent, I move to change the article to reflect the situation as portrayed in the series BoLingua
Picard was clearly not biochemically assimilated in the standard Borg sense as often seen later. His face remained Picard's, and his skin did not change. Anthony Appleyard 21:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
when the borg queen takes 7of9 to the unicomplex, the door to her chambers has a symbol on it that looks like the triskelion. any concurs out there? - Lordraydens 07:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It was mentioned that Voyager 6 could not have made it very far even at maximum warp and therefore could not have gotten to the Delta quadrant. However, in the movie I believe it mentions that Voyager 6 went into a black hole or a wormhole only to emerge on the far side of the galaxy, aka Delta Quadrant. Despite this though, we have no idea where V'ger went after melding with a human. It was postulated that V'ger went off to explore other universes or dimensions, not the delta quadrant which it may very well have already visited in that uberpowerful ship of his.
An additional critizism of this theory is that the ship V'ger had was way beyond what the Borg could have produced to give to V'ger at the time, in my opinion at least.
Agreed. The Borg have never shown any weaponry anywhere near as advanced as the giant plasma balls V'Ger used to take out the Klingons, the Epsilon Station, and almost the Enterprise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.123.145.114 ( talk • contribs) 10:03 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The Borg need not have equipped V'ger with it's own present technology; they just souped it up to be able to collect and use whatever V'ger itself found along it's own journey (perhaps the creators of the Dyson Sphere from the "Relics" episode of ST: TNG might have been ingenious enough to have given V'ger some of it's amazing stuff). Although just speculative, I've always liked the Borg/V'ger connection...especially since Spock (while inside V'ger's visual memory banks) sees a computerized-mechanized world with unbelievable technology. It's clear that that world reengineered Voyager, so until contradicted, let's just say that it encountered either the Borg homeworld, or at least a planet already fully transformed by Borg technology. User:Odysseybookshop June 12, 2006
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The Borg think they are perfect yet they seem unaware of The Q. I emailed a long message about this to a friend of Jeri Ryan and a year later Q's son met Seven of Nine on an episode of voyager. Yet, so far The Borg Queen has never met any of The Q and she seems unaware that they exist and are impossible for the borg to do anything about. I think this must be noted somewhere. Thodin 21:38, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Q: If the Continuum's told you once, they've told you a thousand times, Junior...DON'T PROVOKE THE BORG!! - Lordraydens 08:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, yes they would know about the Continuum, they assimilated Picard after all 66.189.90.207 15:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I googled this phrase and all I got were half dozen copies of this exact article on various other free encyclopedias.
"The Borg, with their frightening appearance, immense power, and most importantly a no-nonsense, totally sinister motive became the signature villains for the Next Generation era of Star Trek. Its strongest definition is most probably the fearful Luddite prophecy."
so what the hell is a Luddite prophecy? Vroman
Hello there. I've added the Reavers, the nomadic cannibals from Firefly into the "See Also" section. They're not exactly the same as the Borg, nor am I aware of what the similarities are (Haven't seen much Trek), but from what I can tell, they're definitely similar. Hydragon 08:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to bring up that my adiition of Death's Head II to this section should not have been removed, as the two concepts are similar. The Death's Head II, as I mentioned in that article addition, is similar yet different, comparable to the Borg in his existence and the fact that he does in fact assimilate others, but is not a collective in the way the Borg are.
While Death's Head II is in most way opposite to the Borg, he IS a cyborg which uses assimilation in order to gain new skills. Which is among the things listed in that edit. I placed it in the see also section because of the similarities between the two, such as the fact that both are collectives, both assimilate others, and of course, both adapt to attacks from opponents. The differences are that Death's Head II is a singular being containing multiple minds and that he is a passionate and emotional being. This was all in that edit. I have never seen any of the other things mentioned in the see also section, and as even the editor who placed the Reavers on the list states, that edit does not truly relate to the Borg in terms of comparable, if not copmpletely similar concepts. Just figured I'd point this out, as that feels like a double standard to me.
This section has been deleted many times. The greatest contribution of Wikipedia is to free speech. Unfortunately there are always those that wish to stifle it. To give in to attempts to censor uncomfortable truths and to silence opinions is to submit to those repressive forces that Wikipedia seeks to defeat. If you disagree with this article then write a rebuttal and let the force of your argument show through instead of simply deleting it. Evil succeeds where good men do nothing.
Ideology Many modern commentators have drawn a comparison between the Borg and the ideology of Al Qaeda and fundamentalist Islam. Just as the avowed aim of the borg is to assimilate all non-borg civilisations, so fanatical Muslims desire to make the whole world Islam, by force if necessary. Both the Borg and radical Islam believe not only that other cultures should be assimilated into their own, but that peaceful co-existance with those cultures who refuse cannot be counternanced. It should also to be noted that very few Borg are ever de-assimilated; in a similar way that in radical Islam, the price for converting to another faith is death, so very few convert out.
Capabilities Like modern Islamic terrorism, the Borg are equipped not only with an unshakeable ideology but a decentralised structure with high levels of redundancy that makes them incredibly difficult to defeat. They can adapt very rapidly to measures opponents devise to defeat them, and learn quickly from their adversaries tactics and weaknesses.In a similar way one sees That you should convert or suffer the consequences in this life or the next.
The Borg most strongly resembled radical Islam in their first incarnations. Most Star Trek fans consider the early Borg to be more powerful and truly implacable enemies than they have subsequently become. For instance, in their first encounter with the Borg in Q Who, the Next Generation crew initially see the Borg as another interesting species to study and to engage with, naivelly confident even after the Enterprise is attacked that the Borg will respond to reason once they understand them. This can be read in retrospect as naive western liberal politics coming up against the resolute implacability of Islam. Later in "The Best of Both Worlds" this naitvete is disabused and the Borg are presented an as out and out threat to the very survival of the Federation's way of life,s s striking at its very centre. The creation of the "Borg Queen" has been a rather futile effort at humanising the Borg. The fundimental point here is that the borg are not human and attitute is as unacceptible as it is non-negotiable. A similar state of affairs exists between the West and radical Islam.
I personally think that the comparisons between the Borg and Islam should be removed entirely, particularly in the view that the Al Queda wasn't really big in world news during the time the Borg were conceived.-- Vercalos 17:58, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Some flaws with the post:
-- Abelani 2:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I will try to reply to critisms point by point.
Firstly, I am quite happy to correct the grammatical errors and post it in a different section of the article; however I fear that this will not really change your opinion of the article.
Two, your comments that the borg seek to assimilate/convert and not to kill; I would be happy to remove the references to killing. For it is the avowed aim of all true Muslims that the whole world should become muslim. A uniform world of conformity; a Borg ideal.
What I try to make clear is that the article refers to the initial incarnation of the Borg. That implacable, non-negotiable entity that equates with a philosophy that sees all other religions as inferior and ripe for conversion. As this philosophy is so far removed from the norms of freedom of religion that we cherish the writers naturally amended this initial into a form people could more readily identify. A more negotiable, more understandable, more liberal form. And you’re right this has less relevance to radical Islam.
No Muslim country is a signatory to the UN convention on the freedom of religion. Why is this? This is because in Islam the price for converting out of Islam is death. Indeed one receives a reward in the afterlife for killing members of ones family that perform such apostasy. In a similar way few convert from being borg.
I am not saying that the writers when they first created the Borg meant to create an analogy to Islam. Nonetheless in its initial incarnation the Borg were emblematic of radical islam.
So finally, if I amend the grammatical errors, remove the references to killing, make it clear that it refers to the first form/impression of the Borg and site it near the cultural allusions section of the article will you allow it to be included. Or is the actual problem the subject matter? Free speech is total or it is nothing at all. Unfortunately radical Muslims have threatened, cajoled, and silenced anyone who dares to make any direct criticism of Islam. This has resulted in a climate of fear where comedians will refuse to make any jokes about Islam after the death threat issued against Salman Rushdie in the early 90’s. Salman Rushdie wrote a fictional book about the birth of islam. Film makers make no films directly criticising islam, after the killing of Theo Van Gogh. Van Gogh made a film criticising the treatment of women under islam. He was stabbed to death by a muslim.
I don’t know whether or not you’re a muslim. I don’t know whether or criticism of my article is due to the causes listed in your entry or due to the fact that I criticised islam. Whether or not you feel that islam is beyond criticism or you fear Wikipedia will receive a fatwa. But silencing an opinion you disagree with is something that I would never do. For although I may disagree or have distain for your opinion I will always defend your right to hold it.
Now that we actually do have a conversation going on the topic, anybody object to my unprotecting the article in about one and a half hours (if I don't fall asleep before then)? -- Nlu 23:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I strongly believe the borg communicate with machine language fundementaly. -- Cool Cat Talk| @ 12:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
So much of so many Star Trek races' "histories" are wrapped up in noncanon and fanfics and what have you that it's virtually impossible to be both canonical and comprehensive while satisfying inquizitive minds. However, a lot of the speculation of the origins of the Borg reads like the What If series. Unreconcilable time travel schemes? Megatron City? Conjecture in here, solidify out there. -Unregistered User
Perhaps. However, there is indeed a fanfiction in which the Borg capture and assimilate Megatron, which at one point was available over the internet. And while conjecture is certainly interesting to read, in this case, I had posted that particular passage, along with the Death's head II passage (which DOES in fact relate to the Borg as it is a semi-similar concept, though a study in reversal in terms of his differences from them), because it is a suggestion of how some fans might interpret the 'machine world' to be, given that the Borg's centrul hub resembvles nothing even similar to an actual planet. PlaneTOID, perhaps, but not a planet, whereas V'Ger was said to have been pulled into the Machine Planet via is't gravity. We know that Cybertron has gravity, and so it is a source of possibility that may be explored by fanfiction writers, even if such has not happened yet. After all, historically speaking, the events of Beast Wars are not completely historically possible because the original Voyager probe was launched before the Transformers themselves awoke aboard the ark when Mt. Saint Hilary erupted in 1984.
The Borg do not use telepathy. As Cybernetic-Organic entites, they use technology. As was seen in Voyager, they blocked their signals to Seven of Nine by shutting off her sub-space radio connection (or something radio). They are not telepathic. If there is no dissent, I move to change the article to reflect the situation as portrayed in the series BoLingua
Picard was clearly not biochemically assimilated in the standard Borg sense as often seen later. His face remained Picard's, and his skin did not change. Anthony Appleyard 21:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
when the borg queen takes 7of9 to the unicomplex, the door to her chambers has a symbol on it that looks like the triskelion. any concurs out there? - Lordraydens 07:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It was mentioned that Voyager 6 could not have made it very far even at maximum warp and therefore could not have gotten to the Delta quadrant. However, in the movie I believe it mentions that Voyager 6 went into a black hole or a wormhole only to emerge on the far side of the galaxy, aka Delta Quadrant. Despite this though, we have no idea where V'ger went after melding with a human. It was postulated that V'ger went off to explore other universes or dimensions, not the delta quadrant which it may very well have already visited in that uberpowerful ship of his.
An additional critizism of this theory is that the ship V'ger had was way beyond what the Borg could have produced to give to V'ger at the time, in my opinion at least.
Agreed. The Borg have never shown any weaponry anywhere near as advanced as the giant plasma balls V'Ger used to take out the Klingons, the Epsilon Station, and almost the Enterprise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.123.145.114 ( talk • contribs) 10:03 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The Borg need not have equipped V'ger with it's own present technology; they just souped it up to be able to collect and use whatever V'ger itself found along it's own journey (perhaps the creators of the Dyson Sphere from the "Relics" episode of ST: TNG might have been ingenious enough to have given V'ger some of it's amazing stuff). Although just speculative, I've always liked the Borg/V'ger connection...especially since Spock (while inside V'ger's visual memory banks) sees a computerized-mechanized world with unbelievable technology. It's clear that that world reengineered Voyager, so until contradicted, let's just say that it encountered either the Borg homeworld, or at least a planet already fully transformed by Borg technology. User:Odysseybookshop June 12, 2006