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Just as a note, the events of the "Endgame" episode occurred in 2378, a date which had been set up in a previous episode. -- MiChaos 17:05, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC).
I think that the sections "Overview", "The Borg change over time", and "Origin of the Borg should all be merged, but I'm not sure how. The V'Ger stuff should be condensed to a trivia bullet at the bottom, because the evidence seems to be heavily stacked against any connection with the Borg. Additionally, a section on Borg biology/technology would be nice and could incorporate info from the sections above.-- StAkAr Karnak 21:56, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you there, the first few sections of this article is badly written. I am working on an overhaul, we'll see where it leads.
I just stumbled upon this article, and I agree that it needs a major overhaul. The two sections on V'ger seem to be mostly speculation on the part of the author of the text, and it's not clear that either of these theories have appeared in this much detail in print. No matter what, the section should be drastically shortened and moved farther down. The "nanobot theory" section is also speculative, and there is no reason to feature the plot of a single non-canonical short story so prominently. (It may, however, be reasonable to include a section on "the Borg in Star Trek fiction" or some such, giving a brief description of this short story as well as describing the role of the Borg in Star Trek novels and other media.) The "Urban Myths About the Borg" section is flat-out terrible. In both subject matter and tone, it reads more like an extended message board post than it does like an encyclopedia article. I'm sorry to be so negative, but I've probably read a few dozen Wikipedia articles on Star Trek in the past few years, and this was the only one that jumped out at me as needing a rewrite. Jim 23:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I question the legitimacy of the term "Borg". "Borg" is certainly not in common usage, and would not even be understood by a Star Trek fan. The number of people who use "Borg", for anything other than the actual Borg race, is so miniscule as to be negligible. There should be no mention of the term "Borg" as a slang, or noun.
Borg -"Star Trek" -collective -warp -assimilation
'The function of the Borg Queen within the Borg seems to be that of a coordinator, as in an ant colony, and less so of a leader in the traditional sense'
If I understand this sentence correctly, it is a poor analogy. The queens of eusocial insects are not coordinators in their society; they are merely reproductives (egg machines). They only coordinate in the sense that if they exist, the nest exists. Most ant behavior is hard-wired in instinct. Although ants have the capacity to communicate through pheromones and kineasthetic interaction, the organisation is in no way hierarchical; it is more decentralised and anarchic. These adaptions enable ants to antagonistically-respond to environmental factors such as food supplies and seasonal variations. If the queen is removed, the colony does not disassociate into chaos; it continues to function with the specific exclusions of tending to the queen and her offpsring. Of course, its numbers dwindle and it produces no reproductive drones.
A better analogy is that the Borg Queen is the primary hub of a star topology distributed computing network. This analogy is highly appropriate given the idea that the queen is a coordinator, and that borg individuals are fitted with computer-like implants. It is worth noting that the organisation of the borg collective is, in theory, poorly scaleable (adding more drones could create a bandwidth bottleneck). It is also failure prone with dire consequences, as the old captain Janeway demonstrated.
Hope you all like the interesting links:D ChrisJMoor
I think that the function of the Borg Queen is that of a thought police. If the Borg is a collective, it would be likely that it would collectively decide to disband. In my view, the Borg Queen exists to block "unacceptable" decisions. I also think that it is likely that there is a Queen subcollective, rather than a single Queen. This would explain the continuity of the Queen despite a Queen being destroyed in "Best of Both Worlds".-- RLent 05:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't really know anything about Star Trek, but thought I'd comment on the cultural allusion paragraph, which I find quite interesting. Is the part about the Borg representing no real world state universally accepted? The whole 'hive mind' and man-machine concept seems to me like a (strongly hostile) take on the ideals of socialism(the hive mind representing the fear that collectivism will eliminate individual thought) - such as one could expect to find in American Cold War culture. In other words, though the Klingons/Romulans may already have represented the Soviet Union and China, to the untrained eye the Borg sure looks like another take on communism. If anyone knows anything about this, it'd be interesting if they'd care to expand on it.
Furthermore, perhaps the sentence about the Ferengi could be improved - as it stands it could be taken to imply that Japanese people are "annoying, but cute comic relief characters", which surely wasn't intended. - 83.109.21.112
I take great issue with "There is little doubt that the Klingon Empire represented the Soviet Union and the Romulan Empire represented mainland China in the geopolitical situation of the Star Trek universe in the original series and some of the subsequent films."
The bad guys in TOS is a recreation of WWII good vs evil.
Klingons are recreations of historical Japanese/Samurai. Their ancestry worship, clans, honor system, weapons and martial arts emphasis are clearly extensions of kamikaze and feudal Japan.
Romulans are the Nazis with strict militaristic hierarchy, technological superiority, racial elitism.
While there might be something to the Borg being "communists", I think it more clearly tilts toward the Borg being a large multinationalist capitalist organization. The Borg ship even looks like an office building. The mission of the Borg is simple -- to spread Borg-ness and acquire technology -- and that's roughly analagous to globalization. I would argue that the Borg are a dystopic vision of America as a corporate empire, and not supposed to represent another country.
I think the Borg character arises partly from the anxiety people have over losing their individuality to an organization, and the primary organization people contend with is the company they work for. Many of the fears of surveillance, control over your own biology, and invasive technology are expressed via the Borg, and indirectly, I think also reflect fears of corporations and the government.
http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/5192/isb.html
I think that most science fiction tends to revel in the anxieties of the present. In the TOS, American discomfort over its imperialist past came out as the "Prime Directive", which was a rule that "allowed" for exploration, but only without conquest. This was the dream of liberal democracy, spreading into places with a kinder-gentler expansionism. It must have had great appeal as we were bombing Vietnam.
Guinan is certainly present on Earth in the 19th century, but as a refugee? She is seen as one of a whole bunch of refugees in ST: Generations. In "Time's Arrow" she is implied to have run away from home. -- Tarquin 20:11, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What was the excuse that Q gave to Picard for why he caused the contact between Humans and the Borg? We are in dispute here. I recall that he said something like, "If I did not do it, by the time you would have had contact with the Borg their empire would have been too strong for the Federation to defeat it." The other view is that Q was just trying to teach Picard a lesson and was not trying to help the Federation.
The emblem on the front of this article is not the emblem of the "Borg Collective". This emblem was only associated with the rogue Borg that were under the sway of the android Lore. Never since, nor even at that time was it insenuated that that emblem was a designator for the Collective. As such, I am making the appropriate revisions. || THOR 22:37, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The text states that this episode was named for the Asimov collection. However, the plot is more of a tribute to the (unrelated) short story of the same name (and its appearances on "The Outer Limits" starring Lenard Nemoy). Unless someone really knows what the author was thinking when the title was written, I'm changing the reference. — DÅ‚ugosz
"In the episode "Drone" the Doctor's mobile emitter combines with Seven of Nine's technology to form a 29th century. Its capabilities include an internal teleporter, speech cababilities, and the ability to reproduce sexually."
I was just wondering what a 29th century was. If it was a mistype, or what? I'm not much of a trekkie (I enjoy it, just don't have time to watch TV), but it seems to be needing a name. Or maybe I'm wrong. Quite possable, honestly.
Feel free to erase this post if it really is supposed to be 29th century. Thanks!
I call bullshit. There's nothing even remotely Soviet-like in Klingons. The "Klingons as samurai" story has way more credibility. The Romulans are clearly modelled after ancient Romans, not anything close to the Cold War mainland Chinese.
I don't know who started this meme, but it must be killed here and now. Taw 20:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Just as a note, the events of the "Endgame" episode occurred in 2378, a date which had been set up in a previous episode. -- MiChaos 17:05, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC).
I think that the sections "Overview", "The Borg change over time", and "Origin of the Borg should all be merged, but I'm not sure how. The V'Ger stuff should be condensed to a trivia bullet at the bottom, because the evidence seems to be heavily stacked against any connection with the Borg. Additionally, a section on Borg biology/technology would be nice and could incorporate info from the sections above.-- StAkAr Karnak 21:56, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you there, the first few sections of this article is badly written. I am working on an overhaul, we'll see where it leads.
I just stumbled upon this article, and I agree that it needs a major overhaul. The two sections on V'ger seem to be mostly speculation on the part of the author of the text, and it's not clear that either of these theories have appeared in this much detail in print. No matter what, the section should be drastically shortened and moved farther down. The "nanobot theory" section is also speculative, and there is no reason to feature the plot of a single non-canonical short story so prominently. (It may, however, be reasonable to include a section on "the Borg in Star Trek fiction" or some such, giving a brief description of this short story as well as describing the role of the Borg in Star Trek novels and other media.) The "Urban Myths About the Borg" section is flat-out terrible. In both subject matter and tone, it reads more like an extended message board post than it does like an encyclopedia article. I'm sorry to be so negative, but I've probably read a few dozen Wikipedia articles on Star Trek in the past few years, and this was the only one that jumped out at me as needing a rewrite. Jim 23:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I question the legitimacy of the term "Borg". "Borg" is certainly not in common usage, and would not even be understood by a Star Trek fan. The number of people who use "Borg", for anything other than the actual Borg race, is so miniscule as to be negligible. There should be no mention of the term "Borg" as a slang, or noun.
Borg -"Star Trek" -collective -warp -assimilation
'The function of the Borg Queen within the Borg seems to be that of a coordinator, as in an ant colony, and less so of a leader in the traditional sense'
If I understand this sentence correctly, it is a poor analogy. The queens of eusocial insects are not coordinators in their society; they are merely reproductives (egg machines). They only coordinate in the sense that if they exist, the nest exists. Most ant behavior is hard-wired in instinct. Although ants have the capacity to communicate through pheromones and kineasthetic interaction, the organisation is in no way hierarchical; it is more decentralised and anarchic. These adaptions enable ants to antagonistically-respond to environmental factors such as food supplies and seasonal variations. If the queen is removed, the colony does not disassociate into chaos; it continues to function with the specific exclusions of tending to the queen and her offpsring. Of course, its numbers dwindle and it produces no reproductive drones.
A better analogy is that the Borg Queen is the primary hub of a star topology distributed computing network. This analogy is highly appropriate given the idea that the queen is a coordinator, and that borg individuals are fitted with computer-like implants. It is worth noting that the organisation of the borg collective is, in theory, poorly scaleable (adding more drones could create a bandwidth bottleneck). It is also failure prone with dire consequences, as the old captain Janeway demonstrated.
Hope you all like the interesting links:D ChrisJMoor
I think that the function of the Borg Queen is that of a thought police. If the Borg is a collective, it would be likely that it would collectively decide to disband. In my view, the Borg Queen exists to block "unacceptable" decisions. I also think that it is likely that there is a Queen subcollective, rather than a single Queen. This would explain the continuity of the Queen despite a Queen being destroyed in "Best of Both Worlds".-- RLent 05:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't really know anything about Star Trek, but thought I'd comment on the cultural allusion paragraph, which I find quite interesting. Is the part about the Borg representing no real world state universally accepted? The whole 'hive mind' and man-machine concept seems to me like a (strongly hostile) take on the ideals of socialism(the hive mind representing the fear that collectivism will eliminate individual thought) - such as one could expect to find in American Cold War culture. In other words, though the Klingons/Romulans may already have represented the Soviet Union and China, to the untrained eye the Borg sure looks like another take on communism. If anyone knows anything about this, it'd be interesting if they'd care to expand on it.
Furthermore, perhaps the sentence about the Ferengi could be improved - as it stands it could be taken to imply that Japanese people are "annoying, but cute comic relief characters", which surely wasn't intended. - 83.109.21.112
I take great issue with "There is little doubt that the Klingon Empire represented the Soviet Union and the Romulan Empire represented mainland China in the geopolitical situation of the Star Trek universe in the original series and some of the subsequent films."
The bad guys in TOS is a recreation of WWII good vs evil.
Klingons are recreations of historical Japanese/Samurai. Their ancestry worship, clans, honor system, weapons and martial arts emphasis are clearly extensions of kamikaze and feudal Japan.
Romulans are the Nazis with strict militaristic hierarchy, technological superiority, racial elitism.
While there might be something to the Borg being "communists", I think it more clearly tilts toward the Borg being a large multinationalist capitalist organization. The Borg ship even looks like an office building. The mission of the Borg is simple -- to spread Borg-ness and acquire technology -- and that's roughly analagous to globalization. I would argue that the Borg are a dystopic vision of America as a corporate empire, and not supposed to represent another country.
I think the Borg character arises partly from the anxiety people have over losing their individuality to an organization, and the primary organization people contend with is the company they work for. Many of the fears of surveillance, control over your own biology, and invasive technology are expressed via the Borg, and indirectly, I think also reflect fears of corporations and the government.
http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/5192/isb.html
I think that most science fiction tends to revel in the anxieties of the present. In the TOS, American discomfort over its imperialist past came out as the "Prime Directive", which was a rule that "allowed" for exploration, but only without conquest. This was the dream of liberal democracy, spreading into places with a kinder-gentler expansionism. It must have had great appeal as we were bombing Vietnam.
Guinan is certainly present on Earth in the 19th century, but as a refugee? She is seen as one of a whole bunch of refugees in ST: Generations. In "Time's Arrow" she is implied to have run away from home. -- Tarquin 20:11, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What was the excuse that Q gave to Picard for why he caused the contact between Humans and the Borg? We are in dispute here. I recall that he said something like, "If I did not do it, by the time you would have had contact with the Borg their empire would have been too strong for the Federation to defeat it." The other view is that Q was just trying to teach Picard a lesson and was not trying to help the Federation.
The emblem on the front of this article is not the emblem of the "Borg Collective". This emblem was only associated with the rogue Borg that were under the sway of the android Lore. Never since, nor even at that time was it insenuated that that emblem was a designator for the Collective. As such, I am making the appropriate revisions. || THOR 22:37, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The text states that this episode was named for the Asimov collection. However, the plot is more of a tribute to the (unrelated) short story of the same name (and its appearances on "The Outer Limits" starring Lenard Nemoy). Unless someone really knows what the author was thinking when the title was written, I'm changing the reference. — DÅ‚ugosz
"In the episode "Drone" the Doctor's mobile emitter combines with Seven of Nine's technology to form a 29th century. Its capabilities include an internal teleporter, speech cababilities, and the ability to reproduce sexually."
I was just wondering what a 29th century was. If it was a mistype, or what? I'm not much of a trekkie (I enjoy it, just don't have time to watch TV), but it seems to be needing a name. Or maybe I'm wrong. Quite possable, honestly.
Feel free to erase this post if it really is supposed to be 29th century. Thanks!
I call bullshit. There's nothing even remotely Soviet-like in Klingons. The "Klingons as samurai" story has way more credibility. The Romulans are clearly modelled after ancient Romans, not anything close to the Cold War mainland Chinese.
I don't know who started this meme, but it must be killed here and now. Taw 20:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)