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Page 54 may be of interest. I must admit it's the first I've heard of it. Parrot of Doom 22:53, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm depositing here the sources I found relating to Guy Fawkes Night and various bonfire and firework festival traditions in Australia (the current text of this article gets some things wrong about the Australian traditions, as the change in dates and the timing of firework bans varied from state to state within Australia).
Hopefully those will be of some use to anyone looking to expand this page. Carcharoth ( talk) 21:38, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
After the AfD was closed with a keep, I am still at a loss to know where this page is going. A hatnote says "This article is about the general tradition of bonfire celebrations", but there is no such 'general tradition', except perhaps that primitive human communities living in temperate or cold climates all needed fires at night. For that, we have Control of fire by early humans. As there are specific articles on each of the important bonfire traditions, distinguished from each other at Bonfire Night (disambiguation), and as all these traditions have in common is bonfires, what will this page be about? Moonraker ( talk) 19:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
For information, the decision has been revised to No Consensus (my concerns were understood). -- Trevj ( talk) 12:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 06:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Bonfire Night → Bonfire celebration – Current title is misleading and unnecessarily complicated for users searching for any of the specific events listed at Bonfire Night (disambiguation) or Bonfire#Celebratory bonfires. If there is consensus for the move, I support Ghmyrtle's suggestions elsewhere to merge in the content at Bonfire and redirect that to Bonfire celebration. A redirect could also be created from Celebratory bonfire. -- Trevj ( talk) 21:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
At risk of appearing POINTy, would the Bonfire Night at Gelora Bung Karno Stadium qualify for inclusion in this article? Clearly it's not an annual event, but maybe such bonfires are commonplace when teams are defeated. -- Trevj ( talk) 14:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Currently the article says:
Bonfire Night is not derived from Guy Fawkes Night it is the common name for Guy Fawkes Night in England, they are on and the same thing -- "However, I'm certain that most people who attend Guy Fawkes' Nights – which are, after all, more commonly just called Bonfire or Firework Nights" ( Is it anti-Catholic to celebrate Guy Fawkes' Night? by Guy Walters in the Telegraph on 1 November 2010 ) -- PBS ( talk) 02:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, technically, this article should be a redirect to guy fawkes night. But that's not going to happen, is it? -- regentspark ( comment) 23:30, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
It is a shame more people have not joined in the conversion. I have rewritten the second sentence to indicate the traditional side of it. The names of Guy Fawkes night and Bonfire night do not represent different celebrations. They are one and the same thing, so we need to make that point by explaining that one is the common name for the other. -- PBS ( talk) 05:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
For me, the page is still confused about what it is dealing with, essentially I think because it struggles to find formulas of words to justify its existence. A header says "This article is about traditions of bonfire celebrations", which recognizes that it is about different traditions, and that reflects the origins of the page as a disambiguation page. I do not see how it can escape from that role, which is its natural one. The lead begins "Bonfire night is a yearly event...", but plainly that is not so, and the page goes on to deal in an understandably limited way with some traditions which are a number of different "yearly events". As Trevj says above, "Whatever wording is settled on, we still have a content fork". Moonraker ( talk) 12:11, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
The Pink Oboe I am not sure why you removed the and in: "The modern event is held annually on or near 5 November, although its religious significance has generally been lost and it is now simply a night of revelry and fireworks." I think the sentence would need some more words changed if the word and is removed. --
PBS (
talk)
02:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I am reverting this edit here are the reasons why:
-- PBS ( talk) 02:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
If the Bonfire night of 5 November is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC then the listing in the lead and the article needs to be sorted on some neutral criteria such as day of the year. -- PBS ( talk) 07:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
this article states that November 5th has 'lost its religious significance.' I believe this to be a very misleading statement, as it implies that the origins of the celebrations are religious. This is wholly untrue: the origins of the celebrations stem from an historical event in English history; the events may have arisen over religious conflict, but the event itself is wholly secular - it cannot be found in the bible, for example. Moreover, the historical roots of the event are very much at the forefront of the celebration, with 'Guys' burnt in rememberence in virtually every town. The article requires much deeper detail of these events, and links to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agimouldi ( talk • contribs) 14:05, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this page I found it disappointingly unencyclopaedic. I'd typed "Bonfire night" in the search box to see what information en.WP might have on the Italian traditions. Nothing it would seem... Until I spotted that the Italian article on bonfire night traditions, it:Falò di inizio anno, actually links not here but to Bonfire. The present page seems to be an annoying fork with Bonfire#Celebratory_bonfires. And to the general reader it risks giving a needlessly insular viewpoint. 86.164.149.143 ( talk) 20:35, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I can find only one link (irishcultureandcustoms.com) in this entire page that even remotely supports the idea that "Bonfire Night" refers to anything other than Guy Fawkes Night, while I found absolutely nothing here that discusses "Bonfire Nights" (plural) as an abstract concept. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of its text and the references discuss Guy Fawkes Night. If the only purpose of this page is to state the obvious (that a "Bonfire Night" is a celebration involving a bonfire), and tell people when/where the other nights are, then why is the other page which simply lists them not perfectly adequate for that very same purpose? How would adding the first line (or even the second) of this page to that list not serve exactly the same purpose as this page? Why should people like me, who arrived at this page wondering why it's been separated from the Guy Fawkes Night page as a supposedly separate entity, have their time completely wasted in this fashion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Galactic envoy ( talk • contribs) 18:48, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
This type of mix up that I highlight below inevitable when a page is listing different traditions under the same name -- that is what we use alternative names (such as Guy Fawkes Night) or if one is not available we use dab extensions to separate out different meanings (per the example dab page Mercury). This page was a proper dab page until 2011 and it ought to become one again to reduce the confusion this page generates.
The sections "Social impact" and "Food" are confusing because they imply that there is only one celebration and that they are linked. They are not, they are different celebrations in different countries with their own traditions and problems (they don't even all share the name "Bonfire Night").
For example in the first sentence of the "Social" section it ends with "or fights" while that may be true in Northern Ireland is is also true in Newfoundland and Labrador or parts of Scandinavia?
It is similar with the Food section who says that "Candy apple, Bonfire toffee, Black peas, Parkin" are associated with celebrations in Southern Ireland, or Scandinavia?
-- PBS ( talk) 10:23, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
"and safety concerns in New Zealand have resulted in similar sales restrictions," This is the danger of using dated newspapers, those were under the past Labour Party government the current National Party government is not so concerned, and although Auckland local government as an example has recently banned fireworks from being let off in public places within Auckland (no bangers in the park) there are no such restrictions on the use on private property or for official shows. [1] It is a political issue in NZ with National, more relaxed about fireworks than Labour (National are much keener than Labour on the flag debate). The thing is that there are similar restrictions on the sale of Fireworks in England and Wales, [2] [3] but this is not usually presented as a "safety concern" in the UK. -- PBS ( talk) 20:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
I have just updated the lead to reflect the fact that "Bonfire Night" is used primarily to refer to the 5 November (Guy Fawkes Night), whilst other events (Eleventh Night and St John's Eve) are occasionally described as "bonfire nights". I shall add some references for the first sentence. 81.152.36.213 ( talk) 12:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 7 July 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was No Consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
Page 54 may be of interest. I must admit it's the first I've heard of it. Parrot of Doom 22:53, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm depositing here the sources I found relating to Guy Fawkes Night and various bonfire and firework festival traditions in Australia (the current text of this article gets some things wrong about the Australian traditions, as the change in dates and the timing of firework bans varied from state to state within Australia).
Hopefully those will be of some use to anyone looking to expand this page. Carcharoth ( talk) 21:38, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
After the AfD was closed with a keep, I am still at a loss to know where this page is going. A hatnote says "This article is about the general tradition of bonfire celebrations", but there is no such 'general tradition', except perhaps that primitive human communities living in temperate or cold climates all needed fires at night. For that, we have Control of fire by early humans. As there are specific articles on each of the important bonfire traditions, distinguished from each other at Bonfire Night (disambiguation), and as all these traditions have in common is bonfires, what will this page be about? Moonraker ( talk) 19:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
For information, the decision has been revised to No Consensus (my concerns were understood). -- Trevj ( talk) 12:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 06:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Bonfire Night → Bonfire celebration – Current title is misleading and unnecessarily complicated for users searching for any of the specific events listed at Bonfire Night (disambiguation) or Bonfire#Celebratory bonfires. If there is consensus for the move, I support Ghmyrtle's suggestions elsewhere to merge in the content at Bonfire and redirect that to Bonfire celebration. A redirect could also be created from Celebratory bonfire. -- Trevj ( talk) 21:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
At risk of appearing POINTy, would the Bonfire Night at Gelora Bung Karno Stadium qualify for inclusion in this article? Clearly it's not an annual event, but maybe such bonfires are commonplace when teams are defeated. -- Trevj ( talk) 14:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Currently the article says:
Bonfire Night is not derived from Guy Fawkes Night it is the common name for Guy Fawkes Night in England, they are on and the same thing -- "However, I'm certain that most people who attend Guy Fawkes' Nights – which are, after all, more commonly just called Bonfire or Firework Nights" ( Is it anti-Catholic to celebrate Guy Fawkes' Night? by Guy Walters in the Telegraph on 1 November 2010 ) -- PBS ( talk) 02:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, technically, this article should be a redirect to guy fawkes night. But that's not going to happen, is it? -- regentspark ( comment) 23:30, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
It is a shame more people have not joined in the conversion. I have rewritten the second sentence to indicate the traditional side of it. The names of Guy Fawkes night and Bonfire night do not represent different celebrations. They are one and the same thing, so we need to make that point by explaining that one is the common name for the other. -- PBS ( talk) 05:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
For me, the page is still confused about what it is dealing with, essentially I think because it struggles to find formulas of words to justify its existence. A header says "This article is about traditions of bonfire celebrations", which recognizes that it is about different traditions, and that reflects the origins of the page as a disambiguation page. I do not see how it can escape from that role, which is its natural one. The lead begins "Bonfire night is a yearly event...", but plainly that is not so, and the page goes on to deal in an understandably limited way with some traditions which are a number of different "yearly events". As Trevj says above, "Whatever wording is settled on, we still have a content fork". Moonraker ( talk) 12:11, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
The Pink Oboe I am not sure why you removed the and in: "The modern event is held annually on or near 5 November, although its religious significance has generally been lost and it is now simply a night of revelry and fireworks." I think the sentence would need some more words changed if the word and is removed. --
PBS (
talk)
02:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I am reverting this edit here are the reasons why:
-- PBS ( talk) 02:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
If the Bonfire night of 5 November is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC then the listing in the lead and the article needs to be sorted on some neutral criteria such as day of the year. -- PBS ( talk) 07:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
this article states that November 5th has 'lost its religious significance.' I believe this to be a very misleading statement, as it implies that the origins of the celebrations are religious. This is wholly untrue: the origins of the celebrations stem from an historical event in English history; the events may have arisen over religious conflict, but the event itself is wholly secular - it cannot be found in the bible, for example. Moreover, the historical roots of the event are very much at the forefront of the celebration, with 'Guys' burnt in rememberence in virtually every town. The article requires much deeper detail of these events, and links to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agimouldi ( talk • contribs) 14:05, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this page I found it disappointingly unencyclopaedic. I'd typed "Bonfire night" in the search box to see what information en.WP might have on the Italian traditions. Nothing it would seem... Until I spotted that the Italian article on bonfire night traditions, it:Falò di inizio anno, actually links not here but to Bonfire. The present page seems to be an annoying fork with Bonfire#Celebratory_bonfires. And to the general reader it risks giving a needlessly insular viewpoint. 86.164.149.143 ( talk) 20:35, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I can find only one link (irishcultureandcustoms.com) in this entire page that even remotely supports the idea that "Bonfire Night" refers to anything other than Guy Fawkes Night, while I found absolutely nothing here that discusses "Bonfire Nights" (plural) as an abstract concept. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of its text and the references discuss Guy Fawkes Night. If the only purpose of this page is to state the obvious (that a "Bonfire Night" is a celebration involving a bonfire), and tell people when/where the other nights are, then why is the other page which simply lists them not perfectly adequate for that very same purpose? How would adding the first line (or even the second) of this page to that list not serve exactly the same purpose as this page? Why should people like me, who arrived at this page wondering why it's been separated from the Guy Fawkes Night page as a supposedly separate entity, have their time completely wasted in this fashion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Galactic envoy ( talk • contribs) 18:48, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
This type of mix up that I highlight below inevitable when a page is listing different traditions under the same name -- that is what we use alternative names (such as Guy Fawkes Night) or if one is not available we use dab extensions to separate out different meanings (per the example dab page Mercury). This page was a proper dab page until 2011 and it ought to become one again to reduce the confusion this page generates.
The sections "Social impact" and "Food" are confusing because they imply that there is only one celebration and that they are linked. They are not, they are different celebrations in different countries with their own traditions and problems (they don't even all share the name "Bonfire Night").
For example in the first sentence of the "Social" section it ends with "or fights" while that may be true in Northern Ireland is is also true in Newfoundland and Labrador or parts of Scandinavia?
It is similar with the Food section who says that "Candy apple, Bonfire toffee, Black peas, Parkin" are associated with celebrations in Southern Ireland, or Scandinavia?
-- PBS ( talk) 10:23, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
"and safety concerns in New Zealand have resulted in similar sales restrictions," This is the danger of using dated newspapers, those were under the past Labour Party government the current National Party government is not so concerned, and although Auckland local government as an example has recently banned fireworks from being let off in public places within Auckland (no bangers in the park) there are no such restrictions on the use on private property or for official shows. [1] It is a political issue in NZ with National, more relaxed about fireworks than Labour (National are much keener than Labour on the flag debate). The thing is that there are similar restrictions on the sale of Fireworks in England and Wales, [2] [3] but this is not usually presented as a "safety concern" in the UK. -- PBS ( talk) 20:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
I have just updated the lead to reflect the fact that "Bonfire Night" is used primarily to refer to the 5 November (Guy Fawkes Night), whilst other events (Eleventh Night and St John's Eve) are occasionally described as "bonfire nights". I shall add some references for the first sentence. 81.152.36.213 ( talk) 12:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC)