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(For readability as usual. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 14:10, 21 May 2011 (UTC))
These arguments for and against are arguments to the argument. How about just letting the theory be described and arguments for it rather than judging that it exists? There are a great deal of opinions that exist in the world for which there is no cogent proofs. That the argument exists should not force the argument itself to be denied, pithy characterizations like "hot air," "junk," and "wacko" are mere name-calling rather than logical argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.157.118 ( talk) 07:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
This article is currently a disaster, and is apparently based entirely on two popular books, neither of which sounds reliable (Avery/Singer is definitely junk (Note: Is This a weasel?)) William M. Connolley 10:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Never edited a wikipedia page; don't think I'll start. None of the ice cores actually exhibit a 1500-year cycle. They only exhibit a 1500-year pacing, that is, D-O events tend to come in multiples of 1500 years. This is a pattern typical of stochastic resonance. This article also appears to confuse a Bond cycle (sets of progressively colder D-O events that terminate with a Heinrich Event) with Bond's 1500-year cycle. These are two different things. Bond's 1500-year cycle refers to the percentage of hematite-stained quartz and feldspar grains eroded by glaciers and deposited in the North Atlantic as ice-rafted debris (IRD), that is marine sediment cores, not ice cores. Somebody (other than me) might want to highlight this in the article. To find an excellent reference, using google scholar search for 'schulz 2002 1470'. This will explain the pacing v. cyclicity issue as well as why GISP2 exhibits a 1500-year periodicity in it's Delta O-18 power spectrum (giving great insights into the nature of time series analysis). And no, I am not Micheal Schulz. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Bb4r (
talk •
contribs)
10:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the dates should be at least converted to absolute, and the Before the Present stuff dropped, and possibly the BCE just changed to BC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.62.41.67 ( talk) 12:42, September 18, 2007 (UTC)
So where does
comes from? Neither gets any google hits. Bond in Science mentions none of them William M. Connolley ( talk) 21:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, we're getting better. Now I've removed "cold" from the unknown events, because Bond specifically notes that his events *don't* show up as cold periods in the Greenland cores. He finds them in ice-rafted debris stuff, I think, which isn't known to correlate to temperature. I may have missed something, though, so if you can find Bond calling these "cold" please re-add William M. Connolley ( talk) 22:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
What conerns me is how these various cycle are so readily discounted as having an affect on our current climate conditions. Loke the North Atlantic oscillation - which doesnt seem to have been factored in either. - Jeremy Cottam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.168.224 ( talk) 12:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The "events" listed under that heading do NOT EXIST in the original Bond et al. (2001) article - to be more exact: Not at the times listed here! HJJHolm ( talk) 14:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the graph [6], which i've tried to verify. Its not from Alley as claimed, and its not from Bond. Please fix up the reference on the image if its to be reinserted. -- Kim D. Petersen ( talk) 19:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The list of events looks much like WP:SYN / WP:OR, especially the things associated with the events. Civilisations rise and fall; inevitably, the falls or rises will co-incide with some events. Unless some outside commentator has linked them, we should not William M. Connolley ( talk) 21:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I've just made a discovery when using the 1,800 lunar tidal model of arctic environment of Northern Russia during the last 20,000yrs and the assumption of a millennial peak triggering H1 at 17,000 B.P. See 'Radiocarbon Variability in the Western North Atlantic During the Last Deglaciation' (2005) by Laura F. Robinson et al. matched at 10,000 B.P. with the graph in paper 'Holocene Treeline History and Climate Change Across Northern Eurasia' (2000) by Glen M. MacDonald et al.
The Maximum Forest Extension is 2 cycles of 1,800 yrs, showing peaks at 4,400 and 8000 yr B.P. (uncalib) which fits with the lunar tide into the arctic basin cycle and extrapolates to the date of 17,000 yr B.P., the onset of Heinrich 1. The tree data shows dips due to the lunar tidal minimum. The diagram can be seen here [url= http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=249553&hl=]1,800 Yr Lunar Tide Cycle Fits Glacial Data[/url]. 176.24.226.120 ( talk) 07:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC) Alan Lowey
Okay, thanks. 176.24.226.120 ( talk) 12:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC) Alan Lowey
Hello. While describing these as 1500 ± 500 year events is technically correct, perhaps the article should be edited to reduce emphasis on 1500 and 1470 year cycles and periods. The concept of a 1500 year climate cycle, especially in the Holocene, is dated and inconsistent with recently published work (both for ice cores and ice-rafted detritus). Bond Events appear to be real, but the significance of the timing has been greatly over interpreted due to (at the time unknown) deficiencies in the benchmark chronology.
Scrutiny of a supposed 1,500 cycle increased after the GISP2 ice core chronology was succeeded by the Greenland Ice Core Chronology 2005 (GICC05; e.g., 1). GICC05 does not produce a 1,470 year period, unlike the GISP2 chronology. Also unlike the GISP2 chronology, GICC05 recurrence times of Dansgaard/Oeschger Event are indistinguishable from random (2). Thus discussion on stochastic resonance is no longer really appropriate, unless this article is going to discuss the history of the interpretation of Bond Events.
Reanalysis of the now-available raw data suggests that the ice-rafted detritus records of the last glacial are "an admixture of the ~1000 and ~2000 cycles" and 1500 is the nonexistent mean in a bimodal population (3). For the Holocene ice-rafted detritus data, classical Fourier spectral analysis detects similar 1,000 ( Eddy cycle?) and 2,500 year periods ( Hallstatt cycle?) (4). Ref 4 also includes wavelet analysis that shows nonstationarity. No statistically significant 1,500 year period is found in the ice-rafted detritus data by Ref 4.
"The North Atlantic ice-rafting events happen to correlate with most weak events of the Asian monsoon for at least the past 9,000 years,[4][5] while also correlating with most aridification events in the Middle East for the past 55,000 years (both Heinrich and Bond events).[6][7] Also, there is widespread evidence that a ≈1,500 yr climate oscillation caused changes in vegetation communities across all of North America.[8]"
The above paragraph from the current version implies that ice-rafting events are coherent with aridification events at a 1500 yr-1 frequency, but this is not reflected in any of the original references. Gupta et al. Fig S3 wavelet has no 1500-year period. Yang et al. Fig S1 shows no coherency at 1500 years. Bartov et al. don't consider Bond Events (only Heinrich Events). Parker et al. perform no spectral analyses.
The current version also cites Viau et al (2002) for "widespread evidence" of a North American terrestrial 1,500-year oscillation, but the same authors in 2006 (5) state that:
"During the Holocene, climate in North America appears to have varied periodically every ~1100 years rather than the ~1500 year cycle found during the last glacial period. Coherence at frequencies between ~900 and ~1100 years between land, ice, and ocean records suggests a common forcing associated with widespread surface impacts during the Holocene."
TLDR; Considering more recent work maybe this page overemphasizes 1,500 years.
1. Andersen, KK., et.al, 2006. Quaternary Science Reviews 25(23-24) 3246–3257. 2. Ditlevsen, P.D., et al., 2007. Climates of the Past 3(1) 129–134. 3. Obrochta, S.P., et al., 2012 Quaternary Science Reviews 55 23–33. 4. Debret, M., et al., 2007. Climates of the Past 3(4) 569–575. 5. Viau, A.E., et al. 2006 Journal of Geophysical Research 111 D09102
Father Huxleyi 06:48, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
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I propose to insert this diagram. It is a plot of Bond, Evans, Muscheler (2008): North Atlantic Holocene Drift Ice Proxy Data. IGBP PAGES/World Data Center for Paleoclimatology Data Contribution Series # 2008-018. (Found at: ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/contributions_by_author/bond2001/bond2001.txt, accessed January 8th, 2019.) Labels have been added manually and placed as in de:Heinz Wanner: Klima und Mensch. Eine 12'000-jährige Geschichte. Haupt, 2016, ISBN 978-3-258-07879-3, Pages 120–124. -- DeWikiMan ( talk) 07:13, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Why was the 5.9 kiloyear event page completely deleted and redirected to this page? Any scientific reason to question that event? If so, then why it is still mentioned in this page? -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 02:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
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(For readability as usual. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 14:10, 21 May 2011 (UTC))
These arguments for and against are arguments to the argument. How about just letting the theory be described and arguments for it rather than judging that it exists? There are a great deal of opinions that exist in the world for which there is no cogent proofs. That the argument exists should not force the argument itself to be denied, pithy characterizations like "hot air," "junk," and "wacko" are mere name-calling rather than logical argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.157.118 ( talk) 07:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
This article is currently a disaster, and is apparently based entirely on two popular books, neither of which sounds reliable (Avery/Singer is definitely junk (Note: Is This a weasel?)) William M. Connolley 10:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Never edited a wikipedia page; don't think I'll start. None of the ice cores actually exhibit a 1500-year cycle. They only exhibit a 1500-year pacing, that is, D-O events tend to come in multiples of 1500 years. This is a pattern typical of stochastic resonance. This article also appears to confuse a Bond cycle (sets of progressively colder D-O events that terminate with a Heinrich Event) with Bond's 1500-year cycle. These are two different things. Bond's 1500-year cycle refers to the percentage of hematite-stained quartz and feldspar grains eroded by glaciers and deposited in the North Atlantic as ice-rafted debris (IRD), that is marine sediment cores, not ice cores. Somebody (other than me) might want to highlight this in the article. To find an excellent reference, using google scholar search for 'schulz 2002 1470'. This will explain the pacing v. cyclicity issue as well as why GISP2 exhibits a 1500-year periodicity in it's Delta O-18 power spectrum (giving great insights into the nature of time series analysis). And no, I am not Micheal Schulz. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Bb4r (
talk •
contribs)
10:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the dates should be at least converted to absolute, and the Before the Present stuff dropped, and possibly the BCE just changed to BC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.62.41.67 ( talk) 12:42, September 18, 2007 (UTC)
So where does
comes from? Neither gets any google hits. Bond in Science mentions none of them William M. Connolley ( talk) 21:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, we're getting better. Now I've removed "cold" from the unknown events, because Bond specifically notes that his events *don't* show up as cold periods in the Greenland cores. He finds them in ice-rafted debris stuff, I think, which isn't known to correlate to temperature. I may have missed something, though, so if you can find Bond calling these "cold" please re-add William M. Connolley ( talk) 22:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
What conerns me is how these various cycle are so readily discounted as having an affect on our current climate conditions. Loke the North Atlantic oscillation - which doesnt seem to have been factored in either. - Jeremy Cottam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.168.224 ( talk) 12:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The "events" listed under that heading do NOT EXIST in the original Bond et al. (2001) article - to be more exact: Not at the times listed here! HJJHolm ( talk) 14:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the graph [6], which i've tried to verify. Its not from Alley as claimed, and its not from Bond. Please fix up the reference on the image if its to be reinserted. -- Kim D. Petersen ( talk) 19:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The list of events looks much like WP:SYN / WP:OR, especially the things associated with the events. Civilisations rise and fall; inevitably, the falls or rises will co-incide with some events. Unless some outside commentator has linked them, we should not William M. Connolley ( talk) 21:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I've just made a discovery when using the 1,800 lunar tidal model of arctic environment of Northern Russia during the last 20,000yrs and the assumption of a millennial peak triggering H1 at 17,000 B.P. See 'Radiocarbon Variability in the Western North Atlantic During the Last Deglaciation' (2005) by Laura F. Robinson et al. matched at 10,000 B.P. with the graph in paper 'Holocene Treeline History and Climate Change Across Northern Eurasia' (2000) by Glen M. MacDonald et al.
The Maximum Forest Extension is 2 cycles of 1,800 yrs, showing peaks at 4,400 and 8000 yr B.P. (uncalib) which fits with the lunar tide into the arctic basin cycle and extrapolates to the date of 17,000 yr B.P., the onset of Heinrich 1. The tree data shows dips due to the lunar tidal minimum. The diagram can be seen here [url= http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=249553&hl=]1,800 Yr Lunar Tide Cycle Fits Glacial Data[/url]. 176.24.226.120 ( talk) 07:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC) Alan Lowey
Okay, thanks. 176.24.226.120 ( talk) 12:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC) Alan Lowey
Hello. While describing these as 1500 ± 500 year events is technically correct, perhaps the article should be edited to reduce emphasis on 1500 and 1470 year cycles and periods. The concept of a 1500 year climate cycle, especially in the Holocene, is dated and inconsistent with recently published work (both for ice cores and ice-rafted detritus). Bond Events appear to be real, but the significance of the timing has been greatly over interpreted due to (at the time unknown) deficiencies in the benchmark chronology.
Scrutiny of a supposed 1,500 cycle increased after the GISP2 ice core chronology was succeeded by the Greenland Ice Core Chronology 2005 (GICC05; e.g., 1). GICC05 does not produce a 1,470 year period, unlike the GISP2 chronology. Also unlike the GISP2 chronology, GICC05 recurrence times of Dansgaard/Oeschger Event are indistinguishable from random (2). Thus discussion on stochastic resonance is no longer really appropriate, unless this article is going to discuss the history of the interpretation of Bond Events.
Reanalysis of the now-available raw data suggests that the ice-rafted detritus records of the last glacial are "an admixture of the ~1000 and ~2000 cycles" and 1500 is the nonexistent mean in a bimodal population (3). For the Holocene ice-rafted detritus data, classical Fourier spectral analysis detects similar 1,000 ( Eddy cycle?) and 2,500 year periods ( Hallstatt cycle?) (4). Ref 4 also includes wavelet analysis that shows nonstationarity. No statistically significant 1,500 year period is found in the ice-rafted detritus data by Ref 4.
"The North Atlantic ice-rafting events happen to correlate with most weak events of the Asian monsoon for at least the past 9,000 years,[4][5] while also correlating with most aridification events in the Middle East for the past 55,000 years (both Heinrich and Bond events).[6][7] Also, there is widespread evidence that a ≈1,500 yr climate oscillation caused changes in vegetation communities across all of North America.[8]"
The above paragraph from the current version implies that ice-rafting events are coherent with aridification events at a 1500 yr-1 frequency, but this is not reflected in any of the original references. Gupta et al. Fig S3 wavelet has no 1500-year period. Yang et al. Fig S1 shows no coherency at 1500 years. Bartov et al. don't consider Bond Events (only Heinrich Events). Parker et al. perform no spectral analyses.
The current version also cites Viau et al (2002) for "widespread evidence" of a North American terrestrial 1,500-year oscillation, but the same authors in 2006 (5) state that:
"During the Holocene, climate in North America appears to have varied periodically every ~1100 years rather than the ~1500 year cycle found during the last glacial period. Coherence at frequencies between ~900 and ~1100 years between land, ice, and ocean records suggests a common forcing associated with widespread surface impacts during the Holocene."
TLDR; Considering more recent work maybe this page overemphasizes 1,500 years.
1. Andersen, KK., et.al, 2006. Quaternary Science Reviews 25(23-24) 3246–3257. 2. Ditlevsen, P.D., et al., 2007. Climates of the Past 3(1) 129–134. 3. Obrochta, S.P., et al., 2012 Quaternary Science Reviews 55 23–33. 4. Debret, M., et al., 2007. Climates of the Past 3(4) 569–575. 5. Viau, A.E., et al. 2006 Journal of Geophysical Research 111 D09102
Father Huxleyi 06:48, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bond event. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:11, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
I propose to insert this diagram. It is a plot of Bond, Evans, Muscheler (2008): North Atlantic Holocene Drift Ice Proxy Data. IGBP PAGES/World Data Center for Paleoclimatology Data Contribution Series # 2008-018. (Found at: ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/contributions_by_author/bond2001/bond2001.txt, accessed January 8th, 2019.) Labels have been added manually and placed as in de:Heinz Wanner: Klima und Mensch. Eine 12'000-jährige Geschichte. Haupt, 2016, ISBN 978-3-258-07879-3, Pages 120–124. -- DeWikiMan ( talk) 07:13, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Why was the 5.9 kiloyear event page completely deleted and redirected to this page? Any scientific reason to question that event? If so, then why it is still mentioned in this page? -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 02:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)