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This is another section which is not specific to Bon. And seems to confuse Bon, Dzogchen and Tantra. As there is already an entry Ngagpa I delete this section here. -- Menmo 21:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
This sounds like a duplication of stuff that could be (is?) found in entries on Vajrayana. It is not so specific to Bön. Thus I would be in favour of removing this section. -- Menmo 17:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add the IPA pronunciation of "Bön" please? -- LakeHMM 02:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know of a reliable source calling Gampo a Bon practicioner? I believed this as well, and on a recent trip to Tibet I asked this of my tour guide to which she said "that's not true."
Now granted, that was a long time ago and Bon was forced into hiding for a while, but I can't find any mention of this in any articles I collected in my research...scratch that...Berzin Archives mentions something about Gampo continuing Bon burial rituals...but continuing a ritual is one thing while following a different religous tradition is quite another.
Another possibility is the 'gtsug' cult phenomenon that supposedly occurred with kings and court 'nobles' which featured sacrifice...sometimes this was labeled as Bon in the centuries to come. (Per Kvaern...Kvaerne?)
The lead section needs to be shortened. According to the Wikipedia:Lead_section#Length, it should be no more than three or four paragraphs. A Ramachandran 13:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Most of the information in this section is not specific to Bon at all, but are generalisms about central Asian shamanism. In my opinion this section could be eliminated completely. It certainly does not provide a clear introduction to the tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.40.126.205 ( talk) 00:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
In the original Bon arrival story, Bon was the result of three brothers who, through their compassion, desired to bring the Bon religion to the human realm. The first brother, Dagpa, arrived in the last world age and introduced "the way". This is loosely refered to in current commentaries as the "animistic" or "Black Bon". According to tradition, it was taught as in the God's realm. The purpose of this early Bon is to produce "BonKu" (a class of realized beings later to be called Buddha).
This part of the Bon tradition is commonly referred to, but left out of religious treatment on this topic. This earlier form of Bon survives today and is found across the world in small practice groups led by a Rigdzen (Bonku) or gShen (priest).
Padmagonpo 16:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Padma Gonopo Rinpoche
The quote in the lead section is also biased. It assumes that there was not a pre-Tibetan Empire culture with the abilities for a religion as complicated as Bon, and that only with the post Hindu introduction of Buddhism could Bon have originated. This is derogatory to the Bonpo of the Himalayas, which do no necessarily reside only in the Tibetan Empire. Bwadman ( talk) 18:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Sanskrit terms are used on occasion in this article. I suggest that the either they be excised, or some explanation be added as to how an indigenous Tibetan religion came to employ them. Sylvain1972 20:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The word "dorje" is definitely Tibetan (Wylie rdo rje), not Mongol. Is the quotation from Pegg accurate? In other words, did Pegg get this wrong, or (as seems more likely) did someone transcribe it incorrectly?
Also the quotation seems irrelevant to the subject of the section. Also, the implements listed are not specific to Bön but are equally used by Buddhists (and I think probably also Shaivites, but I'm not certain about that). I would favor deleting it altogether. -- Actually, I am going to be bold and will go ahead and do that, and if someone wants to revert, they can (but it would be nice to have an explanation of why this belongs and how it is relevant and whether it is accurate).
Arthur chos ( talk) 05:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Category:Bon is itself a category within Category:Asian shamanism. — Robert Greer ( talk) 22:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm under the impression that "Bönpo" is the adjective applied to things associated with Bön. I'm pretty sure that the correct term would be "the Bönpo religion", but in the article, I see "the Bön religion". Isn't that kind of like calling Buddhism "the Buddhism religion" rather than "the Buddhist religion"? Gringo300 ( talk) 05:11, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
There is a much better discussion of the history and teachings of bon at http://bon-encyclopedia.wikispaces.com/bon+overview.
The Description below was taken From http://www.olmoling.org/contents/bon_bonpo - an actual Bon Lama.
Bon and Bonpo ‘Bon’ means ‘Boundlessness’. Its essence is the truth that lies within everything. It is the truth that pervades throughout time and space. It is the miracle that manifests in every moment. Bon is also the spiritual tradition and ancient culture of the Zhang-Zhung Civilization and of Tibet.
The founder of the ancient Bon spiritual tradition was the Buddha Tonpa Shenrab. Tonpa Shenrab was born at the palace Barpo Sogye of Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring. According to the Bon canon, his birth dates 18,000 years ago. His father was Gyalbon Thodkar of the Mu clan and his mother Yonchi Gyalzhedma. His teachings are called ‘Yung Drung Bon’ or ‘Eternal Bon’, and practitioners of Bon are called ‘Bonpo’. The great Shenrab dedicated his whole life to the practice of Eternal Bon for the benefit of all beings. He taught the teaching of Eternal Bon for about five decades, showing the path of compassion to many beings. At the age of 82 he entered into nirvana. His death was a true remainder to many of his followers that we all have to experience the truth of impermanence. Throughout Shenrab’s teaching he tried to communicate with every being, showing them how to recognize their true nature and live with the moment. The essence of his teachings is how to find our home within and abide joyfully with the treasury of contentment that we are all gifted with. His teachings continue to inspire many beings throughout the centuries.
1,800 years later, Mucho Dem Drug organized and classified the entire teaching of Tonpa Shenrab into four categories. The prayers, mantras, the teachings on monastic discipline or precepts, and the biography of Tonpa Shenrab were arranged as part of the Sutra collection (mDo). The second category, Prajnaparamita or ‘Bum’, consists of the detailed exposition of the Perfection of Wisdom teachings. The third category, Tantra, consists of deity visualization, and ritual and esoteric tantric practices. The forth category, ‘mDzod’ consists of the teachings on Dzogchen meditation practices. He also wrote commentaries to these teachings and taught them to many students. Through his teachings and efforts, the teachings of Yung Drung Bon flourished throughout Zhang_Zhung and Tibet. Out of his many students, six become great scholars who translated the teachings of Yung Drung Bon into different languages: Mutsa Tahe and Guhuli Paraya translated Yung Drung Bon into the language of Tagzig. Tritok Partsa translated Yung Drung Bon into Zhang Zhung. Letang Mangpo translated Yung Drung Bon into Chinese. Lhadag Ngadro translated Yung Drung Bon into Indian language, and Sertok Chezam translated Yung Drung Bon into the language of Trom. Through the help of these great scholars, the teachings of Yung Drung Bon reached many parts of the world. In the Bon Canon, these six great scholars are known under the name of “Jamling Khepi Gyendrug”. Later, Tongyu Thuchen of Zhang Zhung translated Yung Drung Bon into Tibetan with the help of the three Tibetan scholars Shari Wuchen, GyimTsa Machung and Chetsa kharbu. After this, the teachings of Yung Drung Bon flourished throughout Tibet.
Around 1196 B.C., Zhutrul Yeshi, a great master from Tagzig established the Bon monastic system and propagated the practice of monastic discipline and philosophical study in the kingdoms of Zhang Zhung and Tibet with energy and devotion. Mutri Tsenpo, the second king of Tibet, was interested in the Bon trantric practice Drakpa Kor Sum and invited many scholars from Zhang Zhung to teach it. Through his efforts, the practice of Tantra, the path of transformation, flourished widely in Tibet.
In the late 7th century, Buddhism came to Tibet from India. During that transition period Bon faced difficulties, yet it survived with the help of great masters who buried and hid many Bon teaching resources. During the reign of Lang Darma, the 40th king of Tibet, Buddhism was entirely terminated. Its first transmission and Tibet went into a spiritual dark age for about a century and a half.
The second transmission for both Bon and Buddhist began around the 10th century. The great Bon master and Terton Shen Chen Luga (996-1035 AD) rediscovered many Bon scriptures that were hidden by earlier Bon masters. One of his students, Dru Yung Drung Lama, founded Yeru Wensaka Monastery in 1072 AD. Yeru Wensaka become the main study center of Bon Practice for many centuries. Unfortunately, it was destroyed by a flood. In 1405 AD, Nyamed Shenrab Gyaltsen from Yeru Wensaka Monastery founded Menri Monastery in place of Yeru Wensaka. Since then, Menri has become the mother monastery of all Bonpos. The abbot of Menri is given the title of the world spiritual head of the Bon tradition. Nyamed Shenrab Gyaltsen became the first abbot of Menri. During the Cultural Revolution in 1959, Menri was destroyed. Later it was reestablished in northern India by Yongzding Tenzing Namdak Rinpoche and His Holiness Lungtok Tenpei Nyima Rinpoche, the 33rd Menri Trizin and head of the Bon tradition.
By Tempa Dukte Lama
Lazzara399 ( talk) 22:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
"However, Tibetans still differentiate between Bön and Buddhism, referring to members of the Nyingma, Shakya, Kagyu and Gelug schools as nangpa, meaning "insiders," but to practitioners of Bön as "Bönpo," or even chipa ("outsiders").[20][21]"
I'm pretty sure this contrasts the Buddhist practice of meditation against the originally Bonpo practice of sky-gazing, (although both traditions use both practices now) as in internalists vs. externalists. To me, this phrasing suggests that the appellation "outsiders" is attached to Bonpos with the connotation of "outcast". This much, I think, is untrue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.215.252 ( talk) 17:11, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Bon religion is exactly animism and not a compassionate practice and belived come from Mu clan,Tonpa Sherab was a missionary come to tibet in early time. Bon tradition started much earlier than ten thousand years ago in tibet. Was started destroying Bon religion since buddhism cilvilaxation come to tibet in 7th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tseringv8 ( talk • contribs) 07:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
I challenge the first sentence of the article..."Bon is the oldest extant spiritual tradition of Tibet."
We do not have a single Bon text which can be dated earlier that the 11th century. Bon is a branch of Tibetan Vajrayana, which itself is the main surviving branch of Indian Vajrayana. I think this needs to be made clear because people demean Bon as some sort of shamanism. Dr. Sam van Schaik says the term "Bon" first comes about by end of the tenth century BUDDHISTS to designate RETROACTIVELY old funerary rites.
http://earlytibet.com/2009/08/24/buddhism-and-bon-iv/ Thigle ( talk) 19:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I guess blogs by respected published authors are not allowed? LhunGrub ( talk) 14:56, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
understanding tibetan buddhism: bon - a heterodox system. I don't know. It sounds like some articles like I posted above implies that Bön and generic animism are separate entities. Kinda confusing. Komitsuki ( talk) 15:46, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
As I said in the edit summary, given the vagueness of Bon, which has many different meanings, pure numbers mean nothing when determining the common spelling. Many of the sources uses Bon and Bön interchangeably, but the correct spelling and common name for this article's subject appears to be Bön. However, if there is evidence to the contrary, I'd welcome any discussion on this. - Sudo Ghost
A "foreign book" in English? What a sight, given that this is an international encyclopaedia. Your WP:GHITS number theory is an argument for WP:COMMONNAME, not WP:PRECISION, and in fact only reinforces the fact that Bön is a valid name for the article's subject. As I said, and is reflected in WP:GHITS, the quality of the search engine results matters more than the raw number. This raw number is useless, given the ambiguous nature of the word "Bon", even when operands are applied to the search (unless you mean to say that you went through 3,880,000 hits and saw all of them were about this article's subject, and not for instance, a religious event at Cap Bon). - Sudo Ghost 05:33, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
@SudoGhost: And on what basis do you revert the updates to the article? You agree above that "Bon" is the obvious most common English spelling of this term. I undo your reversion as there is no naming conflict to justify using anything but the most common English term within the article itself. You may have an argument, which I don't agree with and I think is weak, with WP:PRECISE regarding the best name for the article, but as for wording within the article, there is no such policy to back you up. Further, in reverting, you restored several dead links and restored references which do not accurately reflect the titles of the books they claim to represent (or is your idea of WP editing that the goal is to create inaccuracy and to improperly reference sources) because that sure isn't my idea of what we're doing here and I believe other editors will agree. So I guess we can RfC while we RM this article. — Who R you? Talk 05:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Dear combatants,
FYI, the 3RR rule does not define the upper limit of permissible number of edits per day, it defines a bright-line limit at which an edit war has been proven to exist. Edit wars can be had with fewer than 3RR if it is clear that battles are being fought in articlespace with precious little discussion on the talk pages. Now…
You’ve spit on each other’s shoes over at ANI enough and the 3RR stuff ought to be sufficiently resolved. The only issue at hand now is to establish the facts about how the spelling of “Bön / Bon” is most customarily done in the English language. Wikipedia always follows the practices of the RSs. Given that this article’s own external links takes readers to The Bon Foundation and this PBS article that uses “Bon”, a cursory inspection suggests this article is not using the proper English-language spelling.
Let’s see evidence now. This is an collaborative writing environment inhabited by an all-volunteer army. We do not entrust, mere wikipedians with the job of debating—with pouted lower lip and raised brow—what is the proper future for the English language. We do not engage in primary debate on how the English language ought to be expanded with diacritics, nor what is the proper way for diacritics to be expunged from the English language. That is why wikipedians are steered away from oratory about the proper future of the English language and are steered towards following the RSs.
Greg L ( talk) 15:55, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Okay, again it seems you're not reading the pertinent points here, so to clear up any confusion, I'll make my point as clear as I know how:
So unless there is some overriding policy that says otherwise, there's no basis in using Bon (religion) over Bön. - Sudo Ghost 20:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
I wanted to clarify and make sure there was some kind of rough consensus before editing the page again. Viewing the references in the article in its current state gives Bon as the more common spelling. With this in mind, I wanted to change most of the spellings to Bon. However I think the article's title should remain at Bön, as WP:DIACRITICS says that diacritics should be "neither encouraged nor discouraged", and Bön is "an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English" [3] [4] [5], making it the natural disambiguation for the article's subject per WP:PRECISION.
Is there any objection to this? - Sudo Ghost 18:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
I think there can be no doubt that "Bön" is an established spelling, and that "Bon" is also an established, perhaps more established, spelling. The obvious explanation appears to be this: Tibetology is rather strong in German-speaking countries (and more specifically here in Vienna), and many English-speaking Tibetologists have to read German translations occasionally. The pronunciation of the vowel in Bon/Bön is precisely the same as ö in German and cannot be reproduced in English orthography without changing the consonants. (The word is pronounced roughly like burn without the r.) Add to this the fact that Bon/Bön is not very well known among the general public, and the odd spelling begins to make sense.
I have not checked whether the "Bon" spelling is really so much more common than the "Bön" spelling in high-quality English sources as to make it the dominant one. But as others have explained above, this is not even relevant because "Bon" would require disambiguation and "Bön" does not. The other natural disambiguator without the umlaut, "Bon religion", is POV because it's a matter of POV whether Bon/Bön is a religion or a flavour of Buddhism. Hans Adler 09:03, 9 November 2011 (UTC) I asked a Tibetologist over lunch. He said the usual spelling in English is Bon and noted that even "(religion)" as a disambiguator could be considered slightly POV because it's not completely clear whether Buddhism should be called a religion in the first place (as opposed to a philosophy). Hans Adler 16:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
By selectively quoting just one option out of two, it gives the appearance that WP:PRECISE requires what you want. Here is what WP:PRECISE says:
- This policy section should be read in conjunction with the disambiguation guideline.
When additional precision is necessary to distinguish an article title from other uses of the topic name, over-precision should be avoided. Be precise, but only as precise as necessary. For example, it would be inappropriate to title an article "United States Apollo program (1961–75)" over Apollo program (given that the year range refers to the whole of the program, not a portion of it); or "Queen (London, England rock band)" over Queen (band). Remember that concise titles are preferred.
However, because pages cannot share the same title, it is not always possible to use the exact title that may be desired for an article, as that title may have another meaning. Where there is more than one existing Wikipedia article for another meaning of a desired title, as a general rule:
- If the subject of an article is the primary (or only) topic to which a term refers, then that term can be the title of that article without modification, provided it follows all other applicable policies.
- However, when a topic's most commonly used name, as reflected in reliable sources, is ambiguous (can refer to more than one topic covered in Wikipedia), and the topic is not primary, that name cannot be used and so must be disambiguated. There are generally two methods employed to avoid using an ambiguous title:
- i) Natural disambiguation: If it exists, choose a different, alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit, not as commonly as the preferred but ambiguous title (do not, however, use obscure or made up names). If this is not possible:
ii) Parenthetical disambiguation: Add a disambiguating term in parentheses (or sometimes after a comma), directly after the ambiguous name.
- Examples
- The word "English" commonly refers to either the people or the language. Because of the ambiguity, we use the alternative but still common titles, English language and English people, allowing natural disambiguation.
- On the other hand, "mercury" has distinct meanings that do not have sufficiently common alternative names, so we use instead parenthetical disambiguation: Mercury (element), Mercury (mythology) and Mercury (planet).
Where there is no set name for a topic, so a title of our own conception is necessary, e.g., List of birds of Nicaragua and Campaign history of the Roman military, more latitude is allowed to form descriptive and unique titles.
Titles of distinct articles may differ only in their detail. Many such differences involve capitalization, separation or non-separation of components, or pluralization: MAVEN and Maven; Red Meat and Red meat; Sea-Monkeys and SeaMonkey. While each name in such a pair may already be precise and apt, a reader who enters one term might in fact be looking for the other; so use appropriate disambiguation techniques, such as hatnotes or disambiguation pages, to help readers find the article they want.
All it says is There are generally two methods employed to avoid using an ambiguous title and that one of them is parenthetical, which is perfectly acceptable. There has been compelling evidence presented here that “Bon” is used by the preponderance of the English-langauge RSs, including The Bon Foundation themselves, which (notwithstanding your protestations), is an RS. Thus, having the article title “Bön” when the body text and most RSs are “Bon” has no virtues and has the disadvantage of being inconsistent. Most editors would merely type “Bon” in the search field and be taken to a disambiguation page.
Thus, making the article title consistent is best. Sorry, but your quoting just one snippet out of WP:PRECISE is misleading. It’s clear we will have to move the article title and I don’t see that you have a leg to stand on. Greg L ( talk) 19:38, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
P.S. And don’t diminish my posts again like you did here by collapsing key text that is central to the facts. Collapsing is typically done by a third-party editor and, even then, only when pages become so long they are tedious to scroll through. Your selectively quoting just part of a policy out of context was misleading. You made your bed by doing that so now you can sleep in it. Anyone can see the above policy in total. Greg L ( talk) 19:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
No Match
.The following citation in the Further reading: section:
Pegg, Carole (2006). Inner Asia Religious Contexts: Folk-religious Practices, Shamanism, Tantric Buddhist Practices. Oxford University Press. Grove Music Online. Source:
http://www.grovemusic.com/shared/views/srticle.html?section=music.05283#music.05283 (accessed: January 17, 2007)
links to the Oxford press site; however, a subscription to the site is apparently required, users are therefore unable to read the further reading, something which I suspect most readers would find frustrating. Does anyone know of any other links to this information which would be freely accessible to readers without a need to subscribe? If not, I'd suggest that the link be deleted leaving just the reference (and an ISBN # or equivalent if on exists); so that readers can pursue the information for themselves without feeling somehow suckered to a site that's asking them to subscribe (even if it is Oxford). — Who R you? Talk 06:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 14:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
– Bon is the correct (i.e. most common English usage) spelling of this article's topic, and this article should be so named. This article (currently entitled Bön) is the most natural topic for "Bon" and thus should replace the disambiguation page to be the one associated with the keyword "Bon"; a tophat will be added to lead readers to the "Bon (disambiguation)" page. This article (currently Bön) has over three times the traffic of the disambiguation page (See SudoGhost's post in earlier talk section). None of the other topics on the disambiguation page would be appropriate as the natural target for keyword "Bon". The current title of this article "Bön" does not represent the most common English usage for this foreign topic, and this article (likely) only exists with its current title because the disambiguation page is already using the appropriate title Bon. —
Who R you?
Talk 03:25, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
"Bon or Bön(Tibetan: བོན་, Wylie: bon [pʰø̃̀(n)]) is a branch of Tibetan Vajrayana." this is strange. If you ask someone who believes in Bon, he won't agree. -- Danielinblue ( talk) 11:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
http://www.tibetanresearch.org/Shamanism.htm. I think this has some concise info on Bon. Komitsuki ( talk) 14:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
The first couple sentences of this article seem to be refuting an argument or viewpoint that hasn't even been introduced. It doesn't make sense to someone unfamiliar with the subject. If there's some dispute over the age of the religion, it should be in the body of the text, not the first paragraph. I don't know enough about the subject to edit this properly but someone should. -- 109.158.214.140 ( talk) 15:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
This question should be answered in the very first sentence. Every Wikipedia article should explain what that, which the article is about, is, in its very first sentence. This is in order for the reader to know what it is she is actually reading about, as reading an article about something that you don't know what it is is quite pointless. This article fails to explain what Bön or Bon is (at least as far I have wanted to read), and since it's still a bit unclear to me what it actually is, someone else should probably make the article explain this. — Kri ( talk) 20:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
"The term Bön has two different designations in the Tibetan and Bhutanese world when used in reference to a religious tradition. The word Bön is used to refer to the form of religion which is thought to have arrived in Tibet before Buddhism was introduced and which co-existed with Buddhism to some extent after the introduction of Buddhism despite periodic tensions and conflicts between the adherents of the two religions. This Bön was then considered to have been Tibet's old religion. It took a highly institutionalized and Buddhicized form during the time of the Latter Diffusion and exists to this day with very sophisticated doctrinal and practice systems. It shares a great deal of similarity with tthe Buddhist traditions of Tibet and is today often referred to as the fifth religious tradition of Tibet in addition to the four main Buddhist schools. The term Bön is also often employed, inaccurately, to refer to the numerous pre-Buddhist practices across the Himalayas. A wide variety of local rituals and practices found in Bhutan which are shamanistic, animistic or paganistic are often mistakenly branded as Bön for the simple reason of being pre- or non-Buddhist. In this use it designates what R.A. Stein called the 'nameless religion', comprising the diverse folk beliefs found in their localized variations with or without some influence of the institutional Bön and/or Buddhist practices."
"Bon is one of the pre-Buddhist religions in Tibet. By the term 'pre-Buddhist' here I mean that it existed in Tibet before Buddhism was imported into the area and that it has survived till the present time. Although various definitions of Bon have been proposed, it could be properly said that, in Bonpo culture, we perceive something essential or basic, that has pervaded Tibetan culture from ancient times to the present day. Bon is therefore an important cultural substratum in Tibet."
{{
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: |chapter=
ignored (
help)"The term Bön and its derivative Bönpo have been employed by many Tibetan and Western scholars to refer variously to all sorts of allegedly pre-Buddhist and non-Buddhist elements of Tibetan religion, often including the folk-religion cults of local deities...Such usage conflates so many different things under the one label that serious analysis becomes impossible...While there are some grounds for using the term Bön for the early religion of Tibet, there are few for applying it to the cults of local gods and spirits as they exist today, and I shall avoid using Bön to refer to this contemporary 'folk religion'...The religious order of Bön...is similar in form and nature to the religious orders of Tibetan Buddhism, but claims to derive from the teachings of the pre-Buddhist master Shenrab Mibo rather than historical Buddha Śākyamuni. This modern Bön religion has shamanic and clerical aspects similar to those of modern Tibetan Buddhism....Tibetan folk-religion, then, is 'shamanic', in my sense, but it is to be distinguished from the shamanic aspects of Tibetan Buddhism (and also of the modern Bön religion, which is essentially, in this context, a variant of Buddhism)." - Geoffrey Samuel (1993), Civilized Shamans: Buddhism in Tibetan Societies, pp. 10-12.
I think it's misleading to say that Bon is "a sect of Tibetan Buddhism". Its adherents do not self-identify as a sect of Tibetan Buddhism, do they? I understand that current scholarship disputes Bon claims of preceding Tibetan Buddhism. But to say that Bon arose as an identifiable tradition contemporaneously with the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet, and shared many traits with Buddhism, is quite different from saying it is a sect of Buddhism. Bertport ( talk) 03:21, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
It said in the article that, the chief gods the White Old Man and his consort. I've read on other sites, regarding Bon, that their chief deity is a mother goddess named 'Yum.'-- Splashen ( talk) 16:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Bon/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
This article is becoming worse and worse. It contains lots of irrelevant material, marginally relevant material, unusual spelling etc. Menmo ( talk) 19:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 14:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC). Substituted at 10:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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The article is missing notes on the theological doctrine of Bon, which I feel is a must-have for any article concerning religion. The Verified Cactus 100% 22:38, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Made extensive edits to the opening paragraph, as it was misleading and poorly sourced. I also moved the definitions section to the top and filled it out with scholarly sources. 2607:F2C0:9379:4E00:48FF:46B6:8BF8:879F ( talk) 01:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
The article is missing all mention of the religion prior to what is termed "rediscovery". Since it precedes the arrival of Buddhism I expect to read about this time period, its relationship with Buddhism, the conversion of Tibet and how the religions coexisted/not coexisted. Right now, it reads as though someone discovered an ancient religion in the late Middle Ages, which does not sound right. 134.100.201.250 ( talk) 12:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
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This is another section which is not specific to Bon. And seems to confuse Bon, Dzogchen and Tantra. As there is already an entry Ngagpa I delete this section here. -- Menmo 21:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
This sounds like a duplication of stuff that could be (is?) found in entries on Vajrayana. It is not so specific to Bön. Thus I would be in favour of removing this section. -- Menmo 17:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add the IPA pronunciation of "Bön" please? -- LakeHMM 02:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know of a reliable source calling Gampo a Bon practicioner? I believed this as well, and on a recent trip to Tibet I asked this of my tour guide to which she said "that's not true."
Now granted, that was a long time ago and Bon was forced into hiding for a while, but I can't find any mention of this in any articles I collected in my research...scratch that...Berzin Archives mentions something about Gampo continuing Bon burial rituals...but continuing a ritual is one thing while following a different religous tradition is quite another.
Another possibility is the 'gtsug' cult phenomenon that supposedly occurred with kings and court 'nobles' which featured sacrifice...sometimes this was labeled as Bon in the centuries to come. (Per Kvaern...Kvaerne?)
The lead section needs to be shortened. According to the Wikipedia:Lead_section#Length, it should be no more than three or four paragraphs. A Ramachandran 13:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Most of the information in this section is not specific to Bon at all, but are generalisms about central Asian shamanism. In my opinion this section could be eliminated completely. It certainly does not provide a clear introduction to the tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.40.126.205 ( talk) 00:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
In the original Bon arrival story, Bon was the result of three brothers who, through their compassion, desired to bring the Bon religion to the human realm. The first brother, Dagpa, arrived in the last world age and introduced "the way". This is loosely refered to in current commentaries as the "animistic" or "Black Bon". According to tradition, it was taught as in the God's realm. The purpose of this early Bon is to produce "BonKu" (a class of realized beings later to be called Buddha).
This part of the Bon tradition is commonly referred to, but left out of religious treatment on this topic. This earlier form of Bon survives today and is found across the world in small practice groups led by a Rigdzen (Bonku) or gShen (priest).
Padmagonpo 16:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Padma Gonopo Rinpoche
The quote in the lead section is also biased. It assumes that there was not a pre-Tibetan Empire culture with the abilities for a religion as complicated as Bon, and that only with the post Hindu introduction of Buddhism could Bon have originated. This is derogatory to the Bonpo of the Himalayas, which do no necessarily reside only in the Tibetan Empire. Bwadman ( talk) 18:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Sanskrit terms are used on occasion in this article. I suggest that the either they be excised, or some explanation be added as to how an indigenous Tibetan religion came to employ them. Sylvain1972 20:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The word "dorje" is definitely Tibetan (Wylie rdo rje), not Mongol. Is the quotation from Pegg accurate? In other words, did Pegg get this wrong, or (as seems more likely) did someone transcribe it incorrectly?
Also the quotation seems irrelevant to the subject of the section. Also, the implements listed are not specific to Bön but are equally used by Buddhists (and I think probably also Shaivites, but I'm not certain about that). I would favor deleting it altogether. -- Actually, I am going to be bold and will go ahead and do that, and if someone wants to revert, they can (but it would be nice to have an explanation of why this belongs and how it is relevant and whether it is accurate).
Arthur chos ( talk) 05:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Category:Bon is itself a category within Category:Asian shamanism. — Robert Greer ( talk) 22:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm under the impression that "Bönpo" is the adjective applied to things associated with Bön. I'm pretty sure that the correct term would be "the Bönpo religion", but in the article, I see "the Bön religion". Isn't that kind of like calling Buddhism "the Buddhism religion" rather than "the Buddhist religion"? Gringo300 ( talk) 05:11, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
There is a much better discussion of the history and teachings of bon at http://bon-encyclopedia.wikispaces.com/bon+overview.
The Description below was taken From http://www.olmoling.org/contents/bon_bonpo - an actual Bon Lama.
Bon and Bonpo ‘Bon’ means ‘Boundlessness’. Its essence is the truth that lies within everything. It is the truth that pervades throughout time and space. It is the miracle that manifests in every moment. Bon is also the spiritual tradition and ancient culture of the Zhang-Zhung Civilization and of Tibet.
The founder of the ancient Bon spiritual tradition was the Buddha Tonpa Shenrab. Tonpa Shenrab was born at the palace Barpo Sogye of Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring. According to the Bon canon, his birth dates 18,000 years ago. His father was Gyalbon Thodkar of the Mu clan and his mother Yonchi Gyalzhedma. His teachings are called ‘Yung Drung Bon’ or ‘Eternal Bon’, and practitioners of Bon are called ‘Bonpo’. The great Shenrab dedicated his whole life to the practice of Eternal Bon for the benefit of all beings. He taught the teaching of Eternal Bon for about five decades, showing the path of compassion to many beings. At the age of 82 he entered into nirvana. His death was a true remainder to many of his followers that we all have to experience the truth of impermanence. Throughout Shenrab’s teaching he tried to communicate with every being, showing them how to recognize their true nature and live with the moment. The essence of his teachings is how to find our home within and abide joyfully with the treasury of contentment that we are all gifted with. His teachings continue to inspire many beings throughout the centuries.
1,800 years later, Mucho Dem Drug organized and classified the entire teaching of Tonpa Shenrab into four categories. The prayers, mantras, the teachings on monastic discipline or precepts, and the biography of Tonpa Shenrab were arranged as part of the Sutra collection (mDo). The second category, Prajnaparamita or ‘Bum’, consists of the detailed exposition of the Perfection of Wisdom teachings. The third category, Tantra, consists of deity visualization, and ritual and esoteric tantric practices. The forth category, ‘mDzod’ consists of the teachings on Dzogchen meditation practices. He also wrote commentaries to these teachings and taught them to many students. Through his teachings and efforts, the teachings of Yung Drung Bon flourished throughout Zhang_Zhung and Tibet. Out of his many students, six become great scholars who translated the teachings of Yung Drung Bon into different languages: Mutsa Tahe and Guhuli Paraya translated Yung Drung Bon into the language of Tagzig. Tritok Partsa translated Yung Drung Bon into Zhang Zhung. Letang Mangpo translated Yung Drung Bon into Chinese. Lhadag Ngadro translated Yung Drung Bon into Indian language, and Sertok Chezam translated Yung Drung Bon into the language of Trom. Through the help of these great scholars, the teachings of Yung Drung Bon reached many parts of the world. In the Bon Canon, these six great scholars are known under the name of “Jamling Khepi Gyendrug”. Later, Tongyu Thuchen of Zhang Zhung translated Yung Drung Bon into Tibetan with the help of the three Tibetan scholars Shari Wuchen, GyimTsa Machung and Chetsa kharbu. After this, the teachings of Yung Drung Bon flourished throughout Tibet.
Around 1196 B.C., Zhutrul Yeshi, a great master from Tagzig established the Bon monastic system and propagated the practice of monastic discipline and philosophical study in the kingdoms of Zhang Zhung and Tibet with energy and devotion. Mutri Tsenpo, the second king of Tibet, was interested in the Bon trantric practice Drakpa Kor Sum and invited many scholars from Zhang Zhung to teach it. Through his efforts, the practice of Tantra, the path of transformation, flourished widely in Tibet.
In the late 7th century, Buddhism came to Tibet from India. During that transition period Bon faced difficulties, yet it survived with the help of great masters who buried and hid many Bon teaching resources. During the reign of Lang Darma, the 40th king of Tibet, Buddhism was entirely terminated. Its first transmission and Tibet went into a spiritual dark age for about a century and a half.
The second transmission for both Bon and Buddhist began around the 10th century. The great Bon master and Terton Shen Chen Luga (996-1035 AD) rediscovered many Bon scriptures that were hidden by earlier Bon masters. One of his students, Dru Yung Drung Lama, founded Yeru Wensaka Monastery in 1072 AD. Yeru Wensaka become the main study center of Bon Practice for many centuries. Unfortunately, it was destroyed by a flood. In 1405 AD, Nyamed Shenrab Gyaltsen from Yeru Wensaka Monastery founded Menri Monastery in place of Yeru Wensaka. Since then, Menri has become the mother monastery of all Bonpos. The abbot of Menri is given the title of the world spiritual head of the Bon tradition. Nyamed Shenrab Gyaltsen became the first abbot of Menri. During the Cultural Revolution in 1959, Menri was destroyed. Later it was reestablished in northern India by Yongzding Tenzing Namdak Rinpoche and His Holiness Lungtok Tenpei Nyima Rinpoche, the 33rd Menri Trizin and head of the Bon tradition.
By Tempa Dukte Lama
Lazzara399 ( talk) 22:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
"However, Tibetans still differentiate between Bön and Buddhism, referring to members of the Nyingma, Shakya, Kagyu and Gelug schools as nangpa, meaning "insiders," but to practitioners of Bön as "Bönpo," or even chipa ("outsiders").[20][21]"
I'm pretty sure this contrasts the Buddhist practice of meditation against the originally Bonpo practice of sky-gazing, (although both traditions use both practices now) as in internalists vs. externalists. To me, this phrasing suggests that the appellation "outsiders" is attached to Bonpos with the connotation of "outcast". This much, I think, is untrue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.215.252 ( talk) 17:11, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Bon religion is exactly animism and not a compassionate practice and belived come from Mu clan,Tonpa Sherab was a missionary come to tibet in early time. Bon tradition started much earlier than ten thousand years ago in tibet. Was started destroying Bon religion since buddhism cilvilaxation come to tibet in 7th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tseringv8 ( talk • contribs) 07:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
I challenge the first sentence of the article..."Bon is the oldest extant spiritual tradition of Tibet."
We do not have a single Bon text which can be dated earlier that the 11th century. Bon is a branch of Tibetan Vajrayana, which itself is the main surviving branch of Indian Vajrayana. I think this needs to be made clear because people demean Bon as some sort of shamanism. Dr. Sam van Schaik says the term "Bon" first comes about by end of the tenth century BUDDHISTS to designate RETROACTIVELY old funerary rites.
http://earlytibet.com/2009/08/24/buddhism-and-bon-iv/ Thigle ( talk) 19:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I guess blogs by respected published authors are not allowed? LhunGrub ( talk) 14:56, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
understanding tibetan buddhism: bon - a heterodox system. I don't know. It sounds like some articles like I posted above implies that Bön and generic animism are separate entities. Kinda confusing. Komitsuki ( talk) 15:46, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
As I said in the edit summary, given the vagueness of Bon, which has many different meanings, pure numbers mean nothing when determining the common spelling. Many of the sources uses Bon and Bön interchangeably, but the correct spelling and common name for this article's subject appears to be Bön. However, if there is evidence to the contrary, I'd welcome any discussion on this. - Sudo Ghost
A "foreign book" in English? What a sight, given that this is an international encyclopaedia. Your WP:GHITS number theory is an argument for WP:COMMONNAME, not WP:PRECISION, and in fact only reinforces the fact that Bön is a valid name for the article's subject. As I said, and is reflected in WP:GHITS, the quality of the search engine results matters more than the raw number. This raw number is useless, given the ambiguous nature of the word "Bon", even when operands are applied to the search (unless you mean to say that you went through 3,880,000 hits and saw all of them were about this article's subject, and not for instance, a religious event at Cap Bon). - Sudo Ghost 05:33, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
@SudoGhost: And on what basis do you revert the updates to the article? You agree above that "Bon" is the obvious most common English spelling of this term. I undo your reversion as there is no naming conflict to justify using anything but the most common English term within the article itself. You may have an argument, which I don't agree with and I think is weak, with WP:PRECISE regarding the best name for the article, but as for wording within the article, there is no such policy to back you up. Further, in reverting, you restored several dead links and restored references which do not accurately reflect the titles of the books they claim to represent (or is your idea of WP editing that the goal is to create inaccuracy and to improperly reference sources) because that sure isn't my idea of what we're doing here and I believe other editors will agree. So I guess we can RfC while we RM this article. — Who R you? Talk 05:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Dear combatants,
FYI, the 3RR rule does not define the upper limit of permissible number of edits per day, it defines a bright-line limit at which an edit war has been proven to exist. Edit wars can be had with fewer than 3RR if it is clear that battles are being fought in articlespace with precious little discussion on the talk pages. Now…
You’ve spit on each other’s shoes over at ANI enough and the 3RR stuff ought to be sufficiently resolved. The only issue at hand now is to establish the facts about how the spelling of “Bön / Bon” is most customarily done in the English language. Wikipedia always follows the practices of the RSs. Given that this article’s own external links takes readers to The Bon Foundation and this PBS article that uses “Bon”, a cursory inspection suggests this article is not using the proper English-language spelling.
Let’s see evidence now. This is an collaborative writing environment inhabited by an all-volunteer army. We do not entrust, mere wikipedians with the job of debating—with pouted lower lip and raised brow—what is the proper future for the English language. We do not engage in primary debate on how the English language ought to be expanded with diacritics, nor what is the proper way for diacritics to be expunged from the English language. That is why wikipedians are steered away from oratory about the proper future of the English language and are steered towards following the RSs.
Greg L ( talk) 15:55, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Okay, again it seems you're not reading the pertinent points here, so to clear up any confusion, I'll make my point as clear as I know how:
So unless there is some overriding policy that says otherwise, there's no basis in using Bon (religion) over Bön. - Sudo Ghost 20:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
I wanted to clarify and make sure there was some kind of rough consensus before editing the page again. Viewing the references in the article in its current state gives Bon as the more common spelling. With this in mind, I wanted to change most of the spellings to Bon. However I think the article's title should remain at Bön, as WP:DIACRITICS says that diacritics should be "neither encouraged nor discouraged", and Bön is "an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English" [3] [4] [5], making it the natural disambiguation for the article's subject per WP:PRECISION.
Is there any objection to this? - Sudo Ghost 18:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
I think there can be no doubt that "Bön" is an established spelling, and that "Bon" is also an established, perhaps more established, spelling. The obvious explanation appears to be this: Tibetology is rather strong in German-speaking countries (and more specifically here in Vienna), and many English-speaking Tibetologists have to read German translations occasionally. The pronunciation of the vowel in Bon/Bön is precisely the same as ö in German and cannot be reproduced in English orthography without changing the consonants. (The word is pronounced roughly like burn without the r.) Add to this the fact that Bon/Bön is not very well known among the general public, and the odd spelling begins to make sense.
I have not checked whether the "Bon" spelling is really so much more common than the "Bön" spelling in high-quality English sources as to make it the dominant one. But as others have explained above, this is not even relevant because "Bon" would require disambiguation and "Bön" does not. The other natural disambiguator without the umlaut, "Bon religion", is POV because it's a matter of POV whether Bon/Bön is a religion or a flavour of Buddhism. Hans Adler 09:03, 9 November 2011 (UTC) I asked a Tibetologist over lunch. He said the usual spelling in English is Bon and noted that even "(religion)" as a disambiguator could be considered slightly POV because it's not completely clear whether Buddhism should be called a religion in the first place (as opposed to a philosophy). Hans Adler 16:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
By selectively quoting just one option out of two, it gives the appearance that WP:PRECISE requires what you want. Here is what WP:PRECISE says:
- This policy section should be read in conjunction with the disambiguation guideline.
When additional precision is necessary to distinguish an article title from other uses of the topic name, over-precision should be avoided. Be precise, but only as precise as necessary. For example, it would be inappropriate to title an article "United States Apollo program (1961–75)" over Apollo program (given that the year range refers to the whole of the program, not a portion of it); or "Queen (London, England rock band)" over Queen (band). Remember that concise titles are preferred.
However, because pages cannot share the same title, it is not always possible to use the exact title that may be desired for an article, as that title may have another meaning. Where there is more than one existing Wikipedia article for another meaning of a desired title, as a general rule:
- If the subject of an article is the primary (or only) topic to which a term refers, then that term can be the title of that article without modification, provided it follows all other applicable policies.
- However, when a topic's most commonly used name, as reflected in reliable sources, is ambiguous (can refer to more than one topic covered in Wikipedia), and the topic is not primary, that name cannot be used and so must be disambiguated. There are generally two methods employed to avoid using an ambiguous title:
- i) Natural disambiguation: If it exists, choose a different, alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit, not as commonly as the preferred but ambiguous title (do not, however, use obscure or made up names). If this is not possible:
ii) Parenthetical disambiguation: Add a disambiguating term in parentheses (or sometimes after a comma), directly after the ambiguous name.
- Examples
- The word "English" commonly refers to either the people or the language. Because of the ambiguity, we use the alternative but still common titles, English language and English people, allowing natural disambiguation.
- On the other hand, "mercury" has distinct meanings that do not have sufficiently common alternative names, so we use instead parenthetical disambiguation: Mercury (element), Mercury (mythology) and Mercury (planet).
Where there is no set name for a topic, so a title of our own conception is necessary, e.g., List of birds of Nicaragua and Campaign history of the Roman military, more latitude is allowed to form descriptive and unique titles.
Titles of distinct articles may differ only in their detail. Many such differences involve capitalization, separation or non-separation of components, or pluralization: MAVEN and Maven; Red Meat and Red meat; Sea-Monkeys and SeaMonkey. While each name in such a pair may already be precise and apt, a reader who enters one term might in fact be looking for the other; so use appropriate disambiguation techniques, such as hatnotes or disambiguation pages, to help readers find the article they want.
All it says is There are generally two methods employed to avoid using an ambiguous title and that one of them is parenthetical, which is perfectly acceptable. There has been compelling evidence presented here that “Bon” is used by the preponderance of the English-langauge RSs, including The Bon Foundation themselves, which (notwithstanding your protestations), is an RS. Thus, having the article title “Bön” when the body text and most RSs are “Bon” has no virtues and has the disadvantage of being inconsistent. Most editors would merely type “Bon” in the search field and be taken to a disambiguation page.
Thus, making the article title consistent is best. Sorry, but your quoting just one snippet out of WP:PRECISE is misleading. It’s clear we will have to move the article title and I don’t see that you have a leg to stand on. Greg L ( talk) 19:38, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
P.S. And don’t diminish my posts again like you did here by collapsing key text that is central to the facts. Collapsing is typically done by a third-party editor and, even then, only when pages become so long they are tedious to scroll through. Your selectively quoting just part of a policy out of context was misleading. You made your bed by doing that so now you can sleep in it. Anyone can see the above policy in total. Greg L ( talk) 19:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
No Match
.The following citation in the Further reading: section:
Pegg, Carole (2006). Inner Asia Religious Contexts: Folk-religious Practices, Shamanism, Tantric Buddhist Practices. Oxford University Press. Grove Music Online. Source:
http://www.grovemusic.com/shared/views/srticle.html?section=music.05283#music.05283 (accessed: January 17, 2007)
links to the Oxford press site; however, a subscription to the site is apparently required, users are therefore unable to read the further reading, something which I suspect most readers would find frustrating. Does anyone know of any other links to this information which would be freely accessible to readers without a need to subscribe? If not, I'd suggest that the link be deleted leaving just the reference (and an ISBN # or equivalent if on exists); so that readers can pursue the information for themselves without feeling somehow suckered to a site that's asking them to subscribe (even if it is Oxford). — Who R you? Talk 06:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 14:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
– Bon is the correct (i.e. most common English usage) spelling of this article's topic, and this article should be so named. This article (currently entitled Bön) is the most natural topic for "Bon" and thus should replace the disambiguation page to be the one associated with the keyword "Bon"; a tophat will be added to lead readers to the "Bon (disambiguation)" page. This article (currently Bön) has over three times the traffic of the disambiguation page (See SudoGhost's post in earlier talk section). None of the other topics on the disambiguation page would be appropriate as the natural target for keyword "Bon". The current title of this article "Bön" does not represent the most common English usage for this foreign topic, and this article (likely) only exists with its current title because the disambiguation page is already using the appropriate title Bon. —
Who R you?
Talk 03:25, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
"Bon or Bön(Tibetan: བོན་, Wylie: bon [pʰø̃̀(n)]) is a branch of Tibetan Vajrayana." this is strange. If you ask someone who believes in Bon, he won't agree. -- Danielinblue ( talk) 11:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
http://www.tibetanresearch.org/Shamanism.htm. I think this has some concise info on Bon. Komitsuki ( talk) 14:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
The first couple sentences of this article seem to be refuting an argument or viewpoint that hasn't even been introduced. It doesn't make sense to someone unfamiliar with the subject. If there's some dispute over the age of the religion, it should be in the body of the text, not the first paragraph. I don't know enough about the subject to edit this properly but someone should. -- 109.158.214.140 ( talk) 15:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
This question should be answered in the very first sentence. Every Wikipedia article should explain what that, which the article is about, is, in its very first sentence. This is in order for the reader to know what it is she is actually reading about, as reading an article about something that you don't know what it is is quite pointless. This article fails to explain what Bön or Bon is (at least as far I have wanted to read), and since it's still a bit unclear to me what it actually is, someone else should probably make the article explain this. — Kri ( talk) 20:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
"The term Bön has two different designations in the Tibetan and Bhutanese world when used in reference to a religious tradition. The word Bön is used to refer to the form of religion which is thought to have arrived in Tibet before Buddhism was introduced and which co-existed with Buddhism to some extent after the introduction of Buddhism despite periodic tensions and conflicts between the adherents of the two religions. This Bön was then considered to have been Tibet's old religion. It took a highly institutionalized and Buddhicized form during the time of the Latter Diffusion and exists to this day with very sophisticated doctrinal and practice systems. It shares a great deal of similarity with tthe Buddhist traditions of Tibet and is today often referred to as the fifth religious tradition of Tibet in addition to the four main Buddhist schools. The term Bön is also often employed, inaccurately, to refer to the numerous pre-Buddhist practices across the Himalayas. A wide variety of local rituals and practices found in Bhutan which are shamanistic, animistic or paganistic are often mistakenly branded as Bön for the simple reason of being pre- or non-Buddhist. In this use it designates what R.A. Stein called the 'nameless religion', comprising the diverse folk beliefs found in their localized variations with or without some influence of the institutional Bön and/or Buddhist practices."
"Bon is one of the pre-Buddhist religions in Tibet. By the term 'pre-Buddhist' here I mean that it existed in Tibet before Buddhism was imported into the area and that it has survived till the present time. Although various definitions of Bon have been proposed, it could be properly said that, in Bonpo culture, we perceive something essential or basic, that has pervaded Tibetan culture from ancient times to the present day. Bon is therefore an important cultural substratum in Tibet."
{{
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: |chapter=
ignored (
help)"The term Bön and its derivative Bönpo have been employed by many Tibetan and Western scholars to refer variously to all sorts of allegedly pre-Buddhist and non-Buddhist elements of Tibetan religion, often including the folk-religion cults of local deities...Such usage conflates so many different things under the one label that serious analysis becomes impossible...While there are some grounds for using the term Bön for the early religion of Tibet, there are few for applying it to the cults of local gods and spirits as they exist today, and I shall avoid using Bön to refer to this contemporary 'folk religion'...The religious order of Bön...is similar in form and nature to the religious orders of Tibetan Buddhism, but claims to derive from the teachings of the pre-Buddhist master Shenrab Mibo rather than historical Buddha Śākyamuni. This modern Bön religion has shamanic and clerical aspects similar to those of modern Tibetan Buddhism....Tibetan folk-religion, then, is 'shamanic', in my sense, but it is to be distinguished from the shamanic aspects of Tibetan Buddhism (and also of the modern Bön religion, which is essentially, in this context, a variant of Buddhism)." - Geoffrey Samuel (1993), Civilized Shamans: Buddhism in Tibetan Societies, pp. 10-12.
I think it's misleading to say that Bon is "a sect of Tibetan Buddhism". Its adherents do not self-identify as a sect of Tibetan Buddhism, do they? I understand that current scholarship disputes Bon claims of preceding Tibetan Buddhism. But to say that Bon arose as an identifiable tradition contemporaneously with the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet, and shared many traits with Buddhism, is quite different from saying it is a sect of Buddhism. Bertport ( talk) 03:21, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
It said in the article that, the chief gods the White Old Man and his consort. I've read on other sites, regarding Bon, that their chief deity is a mother goddess named 'Yum.'-- Splashen ( talk) 16:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Bon/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
This article is becoming worse and worse. It contains lots of irrelevant material, marginally relevant material, unusual spelling etc. Menmo ( talk) 19:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC) |
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:34, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
The article is missing notes on the theological doctrine of Bon, which I feel is a must-have for any article concerning religion. The Verified Cactus 100% 22:38, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Made extensive edits to the opening paragraph, as it was misleading and poorly sourced. I also moved the definitions section to the top and filled it out with scholarly sources. 2607:F2C0:9379:4E00:48FF:46B6:8BF8:879F ( talk) 01:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
The article is missing all mention of the religion prior to what is termed "rediscovery". Since it precedes the arrival of Buddhism I expect to read about this time period, its relationship with Buddhism, the conversion of Tibet and how the religions coexisted/not coexisted. Right now, it reads as though someone discovered an ancient religion in the late Middle Ages, which does not sound right. 134.100.201.250 ( talk) 12:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)