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We talked about this before, but as Plagarism is a huge issue in bollywood, there needs to a section that talks about it. It looks like some vandal keeps on deleting it. Because of that I think this page or at least that section should be locked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.248.7 ( talk) 04:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Since the name is now Mumbai shouldn't it be Mollywood now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.57.220.124 ( talk) 21:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Pakistanis never call it hindi movies , we call them "Indian movies", the word hindi is never used in pakistan. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
134.105.224.142 (
talk)
10:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I suggest redirecting Bollywood to the Hindi film industry page. Bollywood is not the official name for the Hindi film industry and many people oppose this name. It was originally used as a derogatory term toward the industry and caught on. Many people still use it but that does not make it the official name of the industry. Since the industry has no official name it should be called by a proper classification, that being 'Hindi film industry'. Also, Hollywood is a redirect for 'Cinema of the United States'. So there should not be an issue with making Bollywood a redirect as well. Nsrav ( talk) 03:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
Read the first line of the article and it specifically says that Bollywood is the Hindi lang. film industry of India. It doesn't say anything about being commercial or non commercial. If no one has any valid objections to this I'm going to go ahead with the redirect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.233.105 ( talk) 00:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
So tell me why Hollywood has a redirect. Nsrav ( talk) 20:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
It doesn't matter whether or not Hollywood is a state, we wouldn't be using one redirect for two articles because they could have used a disambiguation like most other terms which refer to more than one thing. Meaning a page that says Hollywood can refer to either: the Hollywood city, the Hollywood movie industry, etc. But they didn't. Hollywood is also a 'very relevant, famous, and used by everybody.' Hollywood is known internationally, NO ONE not even foreigners says 'cinema of the US' everyone says Hollywood. Hollywood is not a rare nick but a 'well and internationally recognised term used in dictionaries BOOKS are written using that term etc. The only reason we're talking about Hollywood so much is to show you that all your excuses for having the Hindi movie industry be listed under Bollywood do not apply because if they did, they would have to apply for Hollywood too. Nsrav ( talk) 18:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
Hollywood is not the common name for Cinema of the US? Reread what you just wrote. Also, reread what you said about 'almost formal and official' key word ALMOST. It is not the formal and official name. The other stuff exists is talking about DELETION and it is saying that just because x is wrongly put, doesn't mean y should be wrongly put as well - aknowledging the fact that BOTH are wrongly put it is a different situation. so are you aknowledging the fact that the Hollywood redirect is wrongly put?? you can't have a double standard and say its okay for one thing and not okay for another when they're subjectivley the same issue and even OTHERSTUFFEXISTS doesnt support that. And what do you mean by there is no way to move this article? Familiarize yourself with a redirect and you'll see that even the links won't be affected. And I know that many people would search the term Bollywood, but redirecting is not renaming. So redirecting would NOT make it difficult for them to find this article because it will show up in searches for 'Bollywood' only thing is, it REDIRECTS them to this page. So redirecting the page will not stop it from showing up when people type in 'Bollywood'. I really don't see what the problem with redirecting it would be, I'm not proposing a reNAME, just reDIRECT. Unless you are offended by 'Hindi film industry' you shouldn't have any problem with the redirect because your favorite name 'Bollywood' is still going to work! it will not be erased or disqualified or unrecognized, everything will be the same, only thing is when the user actually looks at the page, the title will change from Bollywood to Hindi film industry. But everything else works the same, they can still type in Bollywood to get the article! they arent going to be forced to type Hindi film industry, searches will still work with Bollywood, everything will be the same except when reading the page the top will say Hindi film industry. So i really dont see what the problem is - once again it is not a reNAME, it is just redirecting the Bollywood page to the Hindi film industry page, not deleting bollywood and replacing it. The only logical problem one might have with this is that since so many people call it Bollywood, they won't be able to find the page. But that isn't going to be a problem as I just explained so I dont know what other problem there is. Please look at WP:SELFIDENTIFYING You need to respect what the subject calls ITSELF, what it wants to be called. and most of the industry calls itself the hindi film industry and NOT bollywood.
"I would rather call it the Hindi film industry", J.Abraham [1]
"I think the name Bollywood changed from being "Bollywood" to just Indian cinema or something like that [...] Naming is not my job, but it's called Indian cinema.", M.Ratnam
"Moderator: I wanted to talk about Bollywood...
Abhishek Bachchan: [correcting [the moderator]] The Hindi film industry." [2]
"there is nothing called Bollywood. There's the Hindi film industry or the Indian film industry.... And let me assure you, we don't have any hill with a sign saying Bollywood. No property would ever want to sell land to advertise it. [....] It's like calling New York, Bombay....", R.O.Mehra
[3]
"the Hindi Film Industry (name usually prefered by scholars to the term Bollywood)" [4]
"A lot of learned people in the Indian FIlm Industry dislike the term “Bollywood"" [5]
"the Indian film industry was not happy with the word ‘Bollywood’ and were disgusted at its usage in the media." [6]
"many in the Bombay film industry find the term derogatory" [7]
want more? the industry itself does not use this term for self-identification and im sorry but i cannot paste you quotes of every single person in the industry but those are some of them. therefore even though it is the most common name, the self-identification criteria carries more weight
"A city, country or people, by contrast, is a self-identifying entity: it has a preferred name for itself. The city formerly called Danzig now calls itself Gdańsk. These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name. Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.", Wikipedia So even though you think it SHOULD be Bollywood because so many people call it that, that is not what it IS. "Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. ", Wikipedia
please see WP:SELFIDENTIFYING
Nsrav ( talk) 08:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
Oh okay so 7 sources isn't enough to validate the claim that most of the industry calls itself by that name, and you expect me to give you a source for every person in the industry. yet you can claim the industry calls itslelf bollywood without listing a single source. 'plain as day'? more like, an assumption made by yourself. I think my point about naming the page considering what the group calls itself remains valid because you have no backing to say that the industry calls itself bollywood. Nsrav ( talk) 02:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
Hi, I have made some some changes to the finance section. There have been very minor deletions such as "Bollywood budgets are modest by Hollywood standards" this is not necessary or significant. I have instead given figures for the budgets with the celing of $10 million, the highest so far and future project budgets(Mahabhatata)
I have also mentioned something on the hiring of international technicians and given examples of Krrish and Love Story 2050, as they are particularly notesworthy in hiring reputable international talent.
I intend to write something on Hollywood and Bollywood co-productions later, as that is another area of finance appearing for Bollywood today.
No major changes. We've been patrolling for major vandalism, but small things slip past our guard. Possibly the only contentious edit will be my addition of material re the language of Bollywood films. I stressed that dialogues tend to be written so as to be comprehensible to the largest possible audience, and added a comment from Suketu Mehta re initial composition in English. I need to buy my own copy of that book, and get a page number for that cite. Zora 23:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I restored the references to Hindustani and Pakistan. The Hindi movie industry served ALL of what is now North India and Pakistan before the Partition, it is still extremely popular in Pakistan, despite bans, it is to a great extent run by Punjabi refugees from the Partition, and the language used, per all the references I have, is directed at the same swathe of territory served before the Partition. That's to a great extent a commercial decision, to get the largest possible audience. I also strongly object to labeling Devanagari and Nastaliq scripts as Hindi and Urdu. The underlying language is the same, only the script is different. I gather that participants in a number of North Indian/Pakistani web fora are using Roman characters to write Hindustani, so that they can communicate unimpeded by script differences. This would be impossible if the underlying language weren't basically the same (skewing of formal vocabulary aside). I strongly object to the consensus of academic, scientific linguistics being jettisoned in favor of accentuating communal hatreds and political differences.
We had a sentence in there at one point saying that the whole language question was hotly contested and that readers should look at the Hindi, Urdu, and Hindustani articles to get an idea of the issues. I think that sentence was removed in one of the ethnic cleansing drives to which this article has been subjected, and I think it would help to restore it. We can't discuss the language question here, but we can point readers to the places where it is discussed. Zora 03:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Bharatveer, do you think that there is not one person in the entire world who have watched a Bollywood film, understand it comfortably (so they have a good understanding of Hindi/Urdu) but only know how to write this language in the Arabic script? If you do think this, then I think you're wrong and if you don't, then the Arabic script is for these people. Gizza Chat © 06:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
You can't revive a year and half old poll. Nor is the input from editors who don't work on film-related articles particularly helpful. Zora 09:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a really good article. I saw interviews on Film 2006 tonight with Bollywood producers etc, making the point that over the next decade they will produce in more varied genres - presumably spy thrillers, horror and so on. Anyone know more about this? Thanks.-- Shtove 00:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Why did Centrx remove this? It is a valid category regrouping many articles. If you remove the one in this article, why not remove them on all the others? Sfacets 07:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Whatever the case, you should take it up on the Category talk page rather than here. Excluding a category from one article and not the rest seems dubious, and undermines the category maintenance. Besides that, nowhere in wiki policy is it written that a category cannot regroup grammatical terms. Sfacets 07:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone added an academic article to See Also, where it didn't belong. I thought at first that this was self-promotion, but after checking out the conference at which it was presented, I discovered that BASAS was a reputable organization and that the paper had in fact won special mention on the association web page. So I set up a new selection for the paper. Links to other academic papers would be good. I found a paper on Roja, for the same year -- is that considered Tamil cinema only, or is it a Bollywood film also? Zora 07:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is a magnet for linkspam, and various editors keep removing it. That is a nasty but necessary chore and I very much appreciate everyone who does it. However -- fairly often, editors also remove Upperstall. That is not a fansite, it's non-commercial, and it's good, academic-quality information. I think editors are removing it just because they haven't looked at it.
I'm open for argument on the subject -- if after looking at the site, other editors want to remove it and there's a consensus that we should, I'll bow to the consensus. Zora 01:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I have added a new link which i think it VERY INFORMATIVE and USEFUL, Bollywoodistan.com
What do you think?
C'mon www.bollywoodistan is a DIRECTORY which links to everything bollywood. It is very useful Zora!
Google links to everything Bollywood. We don't need commercial directories. We won't host your advertising. Zora 22:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
This is the only reference in the entire article that refers to the Bollywood moral film codes. Please expand. SchmuckyTheCat 20:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a nice introductory article. It seems a little bit lightly sourced, but what would I know. I knew nothing about Bollywood except it was Indian film before reading this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Powerlad ( talk • contribs) 04:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
Bichhdey abhi to hum, bas kal parso, jiyoongi main kaisey, is haal mein barson? Maut na aayi, teri yaad kyon aayi, Haaye, lambi judaayi!
Devanāgarī: "बिछड़े अभी तो हम, बस कल परसों," "जियूँगी मैं कैसे, इस हाल में बरसों?" "मौत न आई, तेरी याद कयों आई?" "हाय, लंबी जुदाई!"
(This is not Nasta'liq, Nasta'liq is a very specific font, ie Times New Roman, and this is not that font. I changed it to just "urdu" in the main article, if there is a better word to describe things written in the urdu alphabet please change it to that. ***see wikipedia entry for Nasta'liq***
Nasta'liq: بچھڑے ابھی تو ہم، بس کل پرسوں جیوں گی میں کیسے، اس حال میں برسوں؟ موت نہ آئی، تیری یاد کیوں آئی؟ !ہاۓ، لمبی جدائی
Translation: We have been separated just a day or two, How am I going to go on this way for years? Death doesn't come; why, instead, do these memories of you? Oh; this long separation!
Does anyone else find this wording confusing? "Over 90% of the Pakistanni population watch Bollywood films alone," Do they really watch them alone, as in 'one ticket, please'? Or do they watch only Bollywood films? What is this supposed to mean? And where does this statistic come from? Should somebody add one of those 'citation needed' stickers?
I think writing the Devanagari and Nasta`liq spellings of "Bollywood" is just not relevant. This word is made of two English words so what do these other scripts have to do with it? And Indians themselves almost don't use it. It makes no sense to me. BernardM 09:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The whole entire section of how popular Bollywood is supposed is around the world is full of nonsense. Nobody in America except for South Asians or maybe Middle Easterners like Bollywood movies. In America, actors in musicals are expected to act, dance, AND sing. I suspect Bollywood is not at all popular in any other country where acting requires more than just physical appeal and movies are expected to be more sophisticated.
"Bollywood" is not "popular" in America. "Popular" would infer at least a majority of the people know something about it, let alone watch it. The claims of popularity in this article are biased and far-fetched. It would be good if there was some legitimacy on that part. What do you others think? While I do not deny it is impressive, how is the 100 million that is reportedly brought in yearly by Indian films even close to the many billions Hollywood brings in? Seriously, this article is inflated. rotinajeht —Preceding comment was added at 18:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Definitions of popular (first four in google search: "define: popular"):
I think it is important to be more specific here, certainly you are wrong in saying that an industry which generates $100 million in the United States isn't in the slightest bit popular but indeed you need to clarify who forms the strength of the market. Howver even in the source given it is important to show that much of the revenue is generated from the major cities and indeed amongst the south asian communities rather than evenly across America. I'm sure there are many white americans in the United States in the cities who have seen Bollywood films but I;d imagine if you did a survey of the gross earnings of the industry in North America you;d find much of it is generated from the larger cities where watching indian movies amongst the south asian diaspora has become a significant part of their culture - the source states that "Amongst south asian populations, in the larger cities, mega stars like AMitabh and SRK are bigger celebrities than Pitt or Cruise. I'm sure though that to generate $100 million there would have to be a significant watching of the films by other ethnicities also -you can't make a generalization either that nobody in America watches them. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 16:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I made changes to the History section of the article to reflect the fact that although Bollywood did start shooting movies in colour in the late 1950s (for instance, Mother India, which was released in 1957), the majority of films continued to be shot in black-and-white until the mid-1960s. Although there were quite a few successful colour movies in the early 60s (e.g. Junglee, Taj Mahal, Mere Mehboob) there were also many more B&W films to balance it out (e.g. Sahib Bibi Aur Ghulam, Bandini, Woh Kaun Thi?, etc.). I personally date the transition from majority B&W to majority colour as being around 1965, with quite a few colour films I can think of (Waqt, Guide, Jab Jab Phool Khile, Arzoo just to name a few) being released in this year.
Also, I made changes to the history timeline which describes what was popular, in particular altering the dates. If anyone disagrees with my edits to this or the B&W/colour issue, it's open to discussion below. Gujuguy 16:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Quick question from a North American. Is there a reference to the ban or censorship of Bollywood media? The popularity and appeal paragraph assumes prior knowledge of "the ban" which I assume relates to Censorship in Pakistan. Although, that article and a related one about internet censorship do not refer directly to censorship of movies. I would also assume that not just Bollywood, but an entire spectrum of film media might be restricted. Group29 16:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Everybody in Pakistan watches Bollywood films.
Don't agree with that. In countries like Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador, Bollywood is quite popular. Pages like Mundo Bollywood, with almost 2.000 visitors per day, are the best example. Bollywood is becoming popular in Spain, but it IS popular in Peru.
The article had some info on Peru removed - a google search shows over 6000 hits for "Bollywood Peru" so it does appear significant. I have therefore included some basic info. Fanx ( talk) 21:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I added a tag saying that the citations on this page need to be removed. Oceania, Africa, and Plagiarism all make very strong claims about numbers, laws, and popularity, with not support to back them up. I've added a few {{ Fact}} tags as well. 17:13, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
There are still no citations for Oceania or Africa, and a single citation in nearly an entire page of information on finances. Is there a reason the "needs citations" tag has been removed? Reyemile 02:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
== sharukhan background
sharukhan is from AFGHANISTAN he belongs to pashton background
The article says: Bollywood films have been misleadingly classified as musicals, because few films are made without at least one song-and-dance number. This classification is something of a misnomer, as a Bollywood film is expected to contain a number of elements, and one of the essentials is catchy music in the form of song-and-dance numbers woven into the script. Indeed, a film's music is often released before the movie itself and helps increase the audience. Song-and-dance numbers are default content for Bollywood films, and defining the films as musicals would not be done by the Indian public. This seems very much a non-sequitur to me. How does the fact that an essential element of a Bollywood film is "catchy music in the form of song-and-dance numbers woven into the script" make it misleading to classify them as musicals? That seems like the definition of a musical to me. As the article on musical film says, "the musical film is a film genre in which several songs sung by the characters are interwoven into the narrative." PubliusFL 22:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
They frequently employ formulaic ingredients such as star-crossed lovers and angry parents, love triangles, family ties, sacrifice, corrupt politicians, kidnappers, conniving villains, courtesans with hearts of gold, long-lost relatives and siblings separated by fate, dramatic reversals of fortune, and convenient coincidences. ^^this line is confusing, long, and biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.94.221 ( talk) 23:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The main problem with this page was the section "Popularity and appeal" which was a full POV, full of admiration, exeptional claims and in need of an urgent clean-up. Therefore, I did the clean-up:) Toned down, removed unreferenced and disputed statements, unencyclopedic and POV claims. I've gone trough the whole page, and chacked it. It looks good (It was previously written by the great User:Zora).
As major clean-up was done, and a lot of improvement was shown down the last 24 hours, I've removed the tags.
If someone feels that tags are still needed, my requests are:
My best regards, Shahid • Talk2me 07:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I want to share a web which has a great library of bollywood songs so I would like to contribute this link in the bollywood songs article the link is http://www.zekty.com/songs/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.133.77.46 ( talk) 18:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I changed one of the last sentences in the intro paragraph to flow a bit better. Hope the editor group doesn't mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.19.42 ( talk) 15:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Over the years, Bollywood, whose annual output of over 800 films a year, and an audience of 3.6 billion people has shown progress in its popularity, and has been entering the consciousness of Western audiences and producers.[9]
Really? Half the world watches movies they don't understand? The source for this claim only says 3.6 billion tickets sold, and I'm assuming it means the sum of all tickets sold from every movie made that year. Can someone change this? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.228.136 ( talk) 05:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
This is bullshit. Bollywood doesn't make 800 films per year and the audience is not 3.6 billion people large. The source is ridiculous. There is a tiny reference, that this is the "national" outcome. Every film industry in India is included. -- Thirusivaperur ( talk) 01:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Instead of saying what Bollywood is not, can we please mention what it is?
Bollywood is often incorrectly used to refer to the whole of Indian cinema; it is only a part of the Indian film industry.
However, unlike Hollywood, Bollywood does not exist as a real physical place.
Though some deplore the name, arguing that it makes the industry look like a poor cousin to Hollywood, it seems likely to persist and now has its own entry in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Bollywood is commonly referred to as Hindi cinema, even though Hindustani, understood as the colloquial base common to both Hindi and Urdu, might be more accurate.
The use of poetic Urdu words is fairly common. There has been a growing presence of Indian English in dialogue and songs as well. It is not uncommon to see films that feature dialogue with English words and phrases, even whole sentences. There is a growing number of films made entirely in English.
How is this an introduction to what Bollywood is?
Nikkul ( talk) 18:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Since plagarism is a big thing in bollywood, there should at least be a section that links it to the Bollywood Plagarism article. I put it in yestarday, but someone deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.229.176 ( talk) 17:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
In the introduction, there should be the reference, that the Hindi film industry is also known as Bollywood. This is an encyclopedia, not a marketing company. -- Thirusivaperur ( talk) 01:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I know we have been through this before but since the sentence has reappeared in the article and if I'm correct, since an edit war is in place on this issue, let me reiterate. Bollywood in the sense of Hindi film industry is NOT the largest film producers in the world. If you are talking about whole of Indian cinema industries included, then this is not the correct article for the claim. The reference given wrongly calls whole Indian film industry as Bollywood, so we shouldn't use that reference. What amazes me is, List of Bollywood movies released in 2007 has only about 100 names. So where are all the remaining 800 movies if Bollywood indeed produces 1000 movies per year? Not logical, is it? Gnanapiti ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
There has been a tremendous tie between the 2 institution of Bollywood and cricket. Perhaps a small section can be in the works? You have first the kashmir ki kali (what's her name?) and pataudi. then lagaan, and various other films. can be in the offing? Lihaas ( talk) 21:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we can split of the international section into something that can talk of the foreign popularity and India's politics soft power?
In this regard, I added back the South Africa stuff. I also moved back some stuff with currently dubious sources/unsourced info, with tag (for a shortwhile) new sources can be found.
The "tidbit" on South africa that follows the gandhi, my father part may not appear directly relevant, but it gives context to the enduring legacy (chamber of commerce head is quite high-profile), and political gain.
Also the addition of the following is important and is shows the reason for the popularity vis-a-vis Hollywood. Or maybe this has more relevance the question above
Also not sure why this was removed: "Additionally, many more movies have shot songs or significant scenes in countries like Mauritius and Kenya."
Also not sure why the Carib. stuff was removed? Lihaas ( talk) 12:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Why do I always see statements exaggerating in the use of English language & promoting it on purpose. The received message is: "English is the best of the best & if you don't use it, you are an ignorant. :( ENOUGH -- Mahmudmasri ( talk) 11:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we can split of the international section into something that can talk of the foreign popularity and India's politics soft power? On the Kabul embassy bombings page, as one such example, the article talks about India's soft power, one such reason was the spread of Bollywood. On this article, as there is already a section on the global popularity, we can then split that section off into a "Global popularity of Bollywood" or some such article to cover both. Instead of having one seperately on this aspect of India's soft power and non-aggressive policial maneouvering, and then facing a merge debate, it could be a good idea to merge here. Lihaas ( talk) 22:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Popularity and Appeal -> Russia and Eastern Europe
"Bollywood films have been dubbed into Russian, and shown in prominent theatres such as Mosfilm and Lenfilm." This does not make sense, as neither Mosfilm nor Lenfilm is a theatre. They're both cinema studios. I believe this reference should be edited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.93.155.218 ( talk) 16:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
who keeps on deleting it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.248.7 ( talk) 04:49, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I would like to dispute the proposition that "V. Shantaram's Do Aankhen Barah Haath (1957) is believed to have inspired the Hollywood film The Dirty Dozen (1967)." Kindly review this statement after having watched Seven Samurai (1954) by Akira Kurosawa. Regards, Quindecillion ( talk) 09:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
User:Shshshsh is a knowledgeable editor, but he shows WP:OWN by blanket-reverting and by restoring fan-level writing that violates WP:TONE, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. I have changed back only those things, and I hope he'll say that I have carefully gone back over his edits and restored every other one of them.
I hope by this example that Shshshsh will discuss specific edits here first, rather than blanket-revert other editors' well-thought-out, good-faith edits. -- 207.237.223.118 ( talk) 13:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
According to the article, The term is often incorrectly used to refer to the whole of Indian cinema; it is only a part of the Indian film industry.
The question is, who is to say that this is an "incorrect" use? There is no "official" definition for this term. Most usage of this term makes no distinction between Hindi movies and movies made in other Indian languages, or between movies made in one Indian city versus another. Bollywood refers to Indian movies. Typical characteristics include song-and-dance sequences and melodramatic plots, and these characteristics are not limited to movies made in any one Indian city or language. 71.112.85.223 ( talk) 15:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)latha
This is just another funny Sh* discussion. It's obvious for all people, that Bollywood is mostly referred to whole Indian cinema, just Sh* is keeping the WP:TRUTH in his holy hands. -- 91.130.91.92 ( talk) 23:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I just want to add another point in support of Bollywood as Hindi film industry. Whenever a Kollywood, Tollywood or any other language film actor/directo/or any crew member, even if a big star in their language films, signs a Hindi film, it's reported in the media as the particular actor is trying their hand in Bollywood now. Even though that actor is a big star and works in Indian cinema, is NOT a Bollywood actor till they work in a Hindi movie. for example:
http://www.indiaglitz.com/channels/telugu/article/50948.html
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/02/24/stories/2009022460311200.htm
http://www.articlesbase.com/humor-articles/can-tollywood-reach-bollywood-standards-1137149.html
Bollywood has been used in India for decades to refer to Hindi film industry. Calling Telugu, Tamil, Bengali or other language films as Bollywood is plain ignorance. And there are seperate wikipedia articles for other film industries like Kollywood and Tollywood. 86.20.43.242 ( talk) 01:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I've currently put a protection on these articles (currently redirects) that redirect to Bollywood#Plagiarism. The central concern is Bollywood and plagiarism is voiced by Dr. Blofeld (and I paraphrase) as it is a POV fork, potentially libelous (which verges on WP:BLP problems) - see here for initial concerns. I'm starting the discussion here to see if there is any additional information to be offered here (see Talk:Bollywood films and plagiarism for various arguments). Any admin is welcome to unprotect if they see these were done incorrectly, but I do note that I do share Dr. Blofeld's concerns about the BLP issues that could easily be raised in the accusations of plagiarism against the film directors, etc. Skier Dude ( talk) 23:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Exactly. Imagine you are a film director struggling to make an income in a competitive industry. And some mainstream central website like wikipedia reels off lists of films of your films which "they" perceive to be copies of other films. It could affect seriously affect the career of the makers of these films. Especially the screenwriters accused of plagiarism it could even prevent them getting new film work as producers may fear facing possible future law suits if certain screenwriters have a "reputation for plagiarism". It sounds a bit extreme but if you think about it it is a pretty serious issue to allege these films are close copies by law. Sure there might be similarities and a few of them pretty obvious but it is certainly not our place to list them without any references or reliable evidence. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, how exactly does this list of alleged films further the advance of encyclopedic knowledge? Assessing what or what has not been plagiarised is totally original research and a subjective one in that there is no measure to what level it can be described as plagiarism. Some films may have certain scenes which resemble another film others may have very extreme copied central plotlines and the whole works so you can't paint every film as the same level. Its too problematic, especially when this is just an encyclopedia and it is certainly not up to us to pass judgements based on original research. A paragraph on the subject addressing the general problem of plagiarism in the industry in summarised form is the way we should be doing it. Dr. Blofeld White cat 23:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I am amazed at the kind of illogical argument that is presented here by Dr Blofeld. His argument implies that when struggling film producers plagiarize hollywood films, it is okay or even required of us to look the other way. Please explain to me again why it is not possible to succeed in hindi film industry with original themes? His argument that it is libellous to accuse films of plagiarism doesn't hold water either. Is it libellous to accuse a thief of stealing? It is obvious to anyone who has seen a hollywood film and the bollywood version of it that they are copied. What is wrong with saying that? why are we scared of speaking the truth? It seems Dr. Blofeld has an agenda of protecting bollywood and doesn't really care about the truth.
Pepe962 ( talk) 12:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I couldn't give a crap about protecting Bollywood in all honesty but I know when articles are pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable, I live thousands of miles away from India in a place in the UK where Bollywood films are unheard of. You are seriously deluded if you think my main goal in life is to serve as to serve in some sort of Bollywood directors protective unit. I am fully aware that many Bollywood films are utter rubbish and are directly copied from Hollywood films, you;d be suprised also by how many Hollywood film are utter rubbish and steal ideas from foreign films actually. I "know" that many Bollywood films are embarrasingly similar to Hollywood films but that doesn't mean it is necessary to list every one of them. Even one of the best western films A fistful of Dollars was stolen from Yojimbo. The question is why do you feel the need to list every film which you think might be copied based on your own suspicions and original research on a site like wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not some fricking watchdog outlet. If you care so much about exposing the "dirty scoundrels" in Bollywood who steal ideas set up your own website or blog exposing them. This is wikipedia an encyclopedia not a forum for listing and discussin copied films. IN all honesty can you imagine any book on general knowledge listing a bunch of films which bear resemblance to others. Its pathetic evne pitiful given that your clear aim as stated on here is to expose copied films and "punish" film directors and screenwriters. Dr. Blofeld White cat 12:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Hmm..so I am seriously deluded? Doesn't that qualify as slander? About plagiarism, Hollywood does it too, so why can't Bollywood do it..is that your argument? How illogical is that?
There are plenty of differences between wikipedia and a standard encyclopedia. If you wan't a standard encyclopedia, why not go to a library and borrow instead of trying to build one on the internet. The very basis of the Internet itself is to provide and openly exchange information without any fear or favour. What is wrong with putting a list of copied films? If you feel it is not justified to say that a certain film is copied, you are free in the great tradition of wikipedia to remove that entry from the list, but you on the other hand are hell bent on removing the entire list without leaving any trace evidence.
Pepe962 ( talk) 12:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
You are completely missing the point. Plagiarism is common in many film industries across the world, not just Bollywood. Films from pretty much most industries have been accused of copying plot ideas since early film. We are not here to pass moral judgements on whether it is right for Bollywood to do so or Hollywood to do so if you thought I was claming this I suggest you reread what I said, the fact is you felt it was necessary to start listing every single individual film in a table which you thought was copied which is not appropriate when there is no official way in which it can be put forward as fact, it is a subjective matter and films are likely to vary significantly in how much they are plagiarised. How exactly do you measure if a film is plagiarised. Sure many films have similar scenes and plot ideas boy meets girl, girls meets boy, disaster happens broken hearted some scenes may be very similar so this qualifies as plagiarism? Hundreds of Post grunge new rock bands churn out very similar sounding riffs and tunes, plagiarised? There are thousands of films in which you could claim are plagiarised but how exactly does this improve wikipedia? Yes it is true that we are not paper so our scope of covering articles is far greater. However this does not mean we are a trash can for everything and anything especially if articles are potentially libellous and could potentially affect the lives of living people. You have not given me one reason why you think lists of copied films are even remotely encyclopedic and why the average wikipedia user could give a monkeys about it. Your explanation is that these directors need to be exposed and we must not hide the truth. The paragraph in the main article more than clearly states that plagiarism is a major problem in Bollywood but to start assessing every film in a list with its own articles is completely inappropriate. Not only this but in individual film articles providing you give reliable references you can mention that the film was accused of plagiarism as it is in the right context to do so, hardly hiding it. There ar elikely 1000s of films which bear resemblance at varying degrees but who are you to assess exactly what is plagiarised or what is not? Wikipedia is here to expose existing knowledge not original research based on personal observations. Now I've had enough of discussing such a pointless topic as this. Dr. Blofeld White cat 12:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
1) If there are films from other films industries which are copied, they should be listed too. Why hide that information? Putting a list of copied films in not passing moral judgment, it is just providing information to whoever is interested. I agree, mentioning that a film is copied is a subjective matter and not objective, but there are plenty of such topics on wikipedia. I would go so far as to say that every topic on wikipedia can be assessed subjectively. Wikipedia is not a scientific paper. No mathematical proof can be provided that a film is copied, but does that mean we should stop providing this information?
2) Some topics are 'encyclopedic' while others are not? How do we define which ones are 'encyclopedic'? If only topics which can be found in an standard encyclopedia are 'encyclopedic' then wikipedia should be 10% of its size.
3)What about the lives of people whose original work was plagiarized? You seem unconcerned about their lives.
I am tired of this discussion too. I request Skier Dude to be fair and restore the Bollywood and Plagiarism page.
Pepe962 ( talk) 13:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Its really not a case of which one of us is right. You're not seeing things from a wikipedia perspective. The article failed the article criteria on just about every score as Shahid explained to you and you have refusued to accept what more people have said than yourself as clearly shown in the editing history by your disruption to various people. Skier chose the course of action not because either of us felt a certain way but because of the problems having an unsourced list could potentially create and its history of disruption which from a neutral pount is very clear and if Skier hadn't of locked it any other admin such as Yellow Monkey etc would have. I couldn't care less about the side of the plagiariser or the one who has been "robbed", wikipedia is not here to be sympathetic to either view or side although if it is potentially libellous and speculative information is presented as "fact" then I take it very seriously. Please try to see this site from a different perspective rather than chasing your own beliefs that plagiarism is wrong and the culprits should be identifed, Its not what we are about, any good editor can see this. It basically sums it up in Wikipedia:No original research which your list was clearly guilty of and its not only a few of us, this is a widely accepted guidleine to what should be included on here. Several paragraphs could probably we written on it in the main article in prose providing it is well written, balanced and sources as a general evaluation of the problem itself not going into reeling off EVERY single film. Dr. Blofeld White cat 13:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
aaah...my old friend Shahid is here. His hobby is to revert back everyone else's work quoting some WP:XYZ. He thinks it is not disruptive editing as long you correctly/incorrectly mention WP:XYZ. Both of you seem to be forgetting that the very spirit of wikipedia is collaborative working. This means extend/enhance/correct each other's work and not to remove complete pages of information or extensive work done by other people.
Hiding information is not in the spirit of wikipedia. There is no WP:XYZ for this.
Pepe962 ( talk) 14:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Extensive work? You have less than 20 edits in two years. Hardly extensive. Unless of course you count the many sock accounts you operate under all on one thing, Bollywood and plagiarism. Information exists on the annual sales of tampons in supermakrkets in the UK. Do we have specific articles realing of figures by year and which colours sell more? No. We choose not the have an article on it not because we hide information but because to normal people it has no encyclopedic value or relevance. Add to that a distinct lack of sources an reliable evidence to back up your claim and it makes your claims completely inappropriate. What part about no original research don't you get? Perhaps you ought to take a break and listen to some Hanson, good ole home boys from Tulsa eh? Actually MmmBop was similar to a British band's song in the early 1990s, does this mean we start listing all of Hanson's and plagiarised songs? Dr. Blofeld White cat 15:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The Bollywood and Plagiarism page has been around and edited over several years. To get to its current form (before the page was deleted) involved collaboration by many people. The only 'contribution' from Shahid has been to blindly revert back changes as is his hobby as I mentioned previously.
I admit that I have been lazy to login before making some edits, but remember that wikipedia allows this. The allegation that I am a sock is a completely baseless attack on my character. I do not hold multiple user accounts.
Pepe962 ( talk) 15:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Shahid, you adding 'End of Discussion' does not bind me or anyone else to end the discussion. Remember that you don't own wikipedia.
About the Inspector Closseau like proof you provided is simply to a fact I just admitted in the previous paragraph, which is that I sometime am too lazy or forget to log on. I have never denied that. What I am denying is to the allegation that I am a sock or that I hold multiple accounts. Got any proof of this?
I hope Skier Dude or any other Admin of wikipedia will read this entire discussion and take the appropriate decision.
Pepe962 ( talk) 15:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The argument for Neutrality Re-examined:
It has been argued here that putting up a list of copied films does not meet neutrality requirements of wikipedia.
Jesus is considered a God by many people - Is this a neutral statement? It is factually correct. It does not provide any opinions one way or the other.
The Bollywood film Criminal is considered to be a copy of the hollywood film The Fugitive by many people - Is this a neutral statement? How is this statement different from the previous statement?
If a well known fact offends some people, should it be considered as Not neutral?
The lack of sources argument Re-examined:
It has been argued here that there is no way to verify that a film is a copy of another film, hence it is only opinion of the individuals editing the page. I would like to make 3 points in response to this. 1) How is it opinion to make a factually correct statement like The Bollywood film Criminal is considered to be a copy of the hollywood film The Fugitive by many people?
2) If there is a WP:XYZ which quotes that EVERY SINGLE SENTENCE on wikipedia has to be sourced, I'd like to see it. It defeats the very purpose of wikipedia which is to compile the information in a collaborative manner from internet users. Why repeat the information which is in other places?
3) If you go to each of the individual wiki pages of some of the copied films, you will find that users have mentioned the Hollywood films they are copied from. If it can be mentioned here, why not in a list?
How do we control it when people make false allegations about movies being copied? Just like we control everything else on wikipedia - by collaborative editing.
The libel argument Re-examined:
It has been argued that listing films which are copied is libellous. Libel is when you make a false statement to harm another individual. Is it libel to say that The LTTE is considered a terrorist organization by several countries? This is a factually correct statement and is in no way considered as libel. So why is it libel when we say The Bollywood film Criminal is considered to be a copy of the hollywood film The Fugitive by many people?
Based on the rebuttal I presented above for the incorrect arguments made to deleting the Bollywood and Plagiarism page, I request the Administrators again that this page be re-opened.
Pepe962 ( talk) 09:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Well done Shahid. Laughable..is that your only response to the points I made? Sounds like you don't have any points in response.
The 'Unencyclopedic' argument Re-examined:
It has been argued that putting a list of copied films is Unencyclopedic. So what exactly does Unencyclopedic really mean? Open any dictionary and there is NO SUCH WORD.
If anything that is not in a Encyclopedia in Unencyclopedic then probably 90% of wikipedia is Unencyclopedic since it contains information not found in a standard encyclopedia.
One of the examples given here by a user was that the yearly sales figures of tampons in a region is Unencyclopedic. Does that imply Unencyclopedic means Irrelevant? Lets re-examine the Bollywood and Plagiarism page with this 'standard'. The page has been updated by several users over several years. It is a topic of active interest and can hardly be considered irrelevant.
Moreover, why such an urgency to go behind it and delete a topic which no one is supposedly interested in?
Pepe962 ( talk) 10:54, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
So you admit 'Unencyclopedic' is a word used only on wikipedia. Its ironic (and laughable) that the person who likes to harp on providing sources is using a non existent word to win an debate.
Pepe962 ( talk) 11:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Lets see about that. This topic is still open to discussion, even if you wish it were not. Pepe962 ( talk) 12:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
You're wasting your time as noone is going to revert Skier's changes. Just drop it and do something useful with your time. Dr. Blofeld White cat 12:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Skier can revert his own changes if he is convinced. I am hoping he will be.
Pepe962 ( talk) 13:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Why do Shahid and Dr Blofeld keep trying to convince me to give up? I wan't to know Skier's response to the points I made in green above. Pepe962 ( talk) 14:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
This word does not need to be in both the intro paragraph and the etymology section, it is redundant. It needs to be removed from the intro for it is not a vital part of the subject. Drinkybird ( talk) 23:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
There are a number of other matters that need to be included and cross referenced to other wikipedia articles. Blocking the editing of the article is impeding such efforts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.201.107 ( talk) 05:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Why is it spelled बॉलीवूड in the introductory sentence? Isn't it pronounced बॉलीवुड? GSMR ( talk) 15:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The user who's been known for editing Wiki for only one reason is back and he adds some court case to the section about Fox suing BR Films. For that matter, it is unnecessary and irrelevant in the Bollywood page. It is relevant in the film's page, not here. The plagiarism section is here to show the matter, not to list incidents associated with it. This section is not a list - two examples are sufficiently fine to discuss the matter and show the criticism Bollywood has faced. Adding another one adds no value at all. WP:IINFO and WP:UNDUE show that. Shahid • Talk2me 14:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not to move the page, per the discussion below. A decision on whether or not to split the article is outside the scope of RM and can be discussed separately, although any article split from this one must avoid becoming a fork. Dekimasu よ! 05:07, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
The name bollywood does no justice to Hindi Cinema. Even American movie industry's name is not hollywood check Cinema of the United States. What is the rationale of keeping the name bollywood. Specially when the city is not anymore named Bombay? I was trying to rename it to Hindi Cinema which is much more appropriate, but it got misspelled as Hindi Cinena and would not rename to Hindi Cinema, so I had to change it to Hindi Movie Industry. Bollywood in no way is a justified name. Why dont you rename the Indian people name to Curries just because thats the name for them popular in Australia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nihits ( talk • contribs) 08:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please rename it to Hindi Cinema? I renamed it but some dude started threatening me to remove my account Nihits ( talk) 08:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know when was the term bollywood first used? maybe in late 80s or early 90s, and no one called it that until its 50 years of history before that.. Its shameful a bunch of wannabe-cools can change the history and name of an industry which has given so much to art. Nihits ( talk) 08:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
User:Bigsuperindia keeps adding irrelevant information to the lead in violation of WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE. He keeps edit warring and his last edits are laughable. "Today Bollywood has become very popular in American and world" is not only a badly written line but is also inappropriate in the lead right after the term's definition. The source also does not explicitly support what the line claims. How come it came in the middle of nowhere here in the lead when entire sections describe its growth in the rest of the world? Why America? Why today? It's been so for years! And again, what is the relevance of this line in the very first paragraph of the lead?
What makes me think even more is the claim that Bollywood is known as the "Hollywood of Mumbai" (also cited by the user in the lead). Now how exactly does this sentence make sense when we all know that the term is derived from Bollywood and Bobmbay. And since when has this been a common title used to refer to this film industry? Where are more sources? And then again, what is the relevance of this line right in the lead? Shahid • Talk2me 00:21, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
We talked about this before, but as Plagarism is a huge issue in bollywood, there needs to a section that talks about it. It looks like some vandal keeps on deleting it. Because of that I think this page or at least that section should be locked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.248.7 ( talk) 04:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Since the name is now Mumbai shouldn't it be Mollywood now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.57.220.124 ( talk) 21:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Pakistanis never call it hindi movies , we call them "Indian movies", the word hindi is never used in pakistan. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
134.105.224.142 (
talk)
10:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I suggest redirecting Bollywood to the Hindi film industry page. Bollywood is not the official name for the Hindi film industry and many people oppose this name. It was originally used as a derogatory term toward the industry and caught on. Many people still use it but that does not make it the official name of the industry. Since the industry has no official name it should be called by a proper classification, that being 'Hindi film industry'. Also, Hollywood is a redirect for 'Cinema of the United States'. So there should not be an issue with making Bollywood a redirect as well. Nsrav ( talk) 03:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
Read the first line of the article and it specifically says that Bollywood is the Hindi lang. film industry of India. It doesn't say anything about being commercial or non commercial. If no one has any valid objections to this I'm going to go ahead with the redirect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.233.105 ( talk) 00:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
So tell me why Hollywood has a redirect. Nsrav ( talk) 20:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
It doesn't matter whether or not Hollywood is a state, we wouldn't be using one redirect for two articles because they could have used a disambiguation like most other terms which refer to more than one thing. Meaning a page that says Hollywood can refer to either: the Hollywood city, the Hollywood movie industry, etc. But they didn't. Hollywood is also a 'very relevant, famous, and used by everybody.' Hollywood is known internationally, NO ONE not even foreigners says 'cinema of the US' everyone says Hollywood. Hollywood is not a rare nick but a 'well and internationally recognised term used in dictionaries BOOKS are written using that term etc. The only reason we're talking about Hollywood so much is to show you that all your excuses for having the Hindi movie industry be listed under Bollywood do not apply because if they did, they would have to apply for Hollywood too. Nsrav ( talk) 18:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
Hollywood is not the common name for Cinema of the US? Reread what you just wrote. Also, reread what you said about 'almost formal and official' key word ALMOST. It is not the formal and official name. The other stuff exists is talking about DELETION and it is saying that just because x is wrongly put, doesn't mean y should be wrongly put as well - aknowledging the fact that BOTH are wrongly put it is a different situation. so are you aknowledging the fact that the Hollywood redirect is wrongly put?? you can't have a double standard and say its okay for one thing and not okay for another when they're subjectivley the same issue and even OTHERSTUFFEXISTS doesnt support that. And what do you mean by there is no way to move this article? Familiarize yourself with a redirect and you'll see that even the links won't be affected. And I know that many people would search the term Bollywood, but redirecting is not renaming. So redirecting would NOT make it difficult for them to find this article because it will show up in searches for 'Bollywood' only thing is, it REDIRECTS them to this page. So redirecting the page will not stop it from showing up when people type in 'Bollywood'. I really don't see what the problem with redirecting it would be, I'm not proposing a reNAME, just reDIRECT. Unless you are offended by 'Hindi film industry' you shouldn't have any problem with the redirect because your favorite name 'Bollywood' is still going to work! it will not be erased or disqualified or unrecognized, everything will be the same, only thing is when the user actually looks at the page, the title will change from Bollywood to Hindi film industry. But everything else works the same, they can still type in Bollywood to get the article! they arent going to be forced to type Hindi film industry, searches will still work with Bollywood, everything will be the same except when reading the page the top will say Hindi film industry. So i really dont see what the problem is - once again it is not a reNAME, it is just redirecting the Bollywood page to the Hindi film industry page, not deleting bollywood and replacing it. The only logical problem one might have with this is that since so many people call it Bollywood, they won't be able to find the page. But that isn't going to be a problem as I just explained so I dont know what other problem there is. Please look at WP:SELFIDENTIFYING You need to respect what the subject calls ITSELF, what it wants to be called. and most of the industry calls itself the hindi film industry and NOT bollywood.
"I would rather call it the Hindi film industry", J.Abraham [1]
"I think the name Bollywood changed from being "Bollywood" to just Indian cinema or something like that [...] Naming is not my job, but it's called Indian cinema.", M.Ratnam
"Moderator: I wanted to talk about Bollywood...
Abhishek Bachchan: [correcting [the moderator]] The Hindi film industry." [2]
"there is nothing called Bollywood. There's the Hindi film industry or the Indian film industry.... And let me assure you, we don't have any hill with a sign saying Bollywood. No property would ever want to sell land to advertise it. [....] It's like calling New York, Bombay....", R.O.Mehra
[3]
"the Hindi Film Industry (name usually prefered by scholars to the term Bollywood)" [4]
"A lot of learned people in the Indian FIlm Industry dislike the term “Bollywood"" [5]
"the Indian film industry was not happy with the word ‘Bollywood’ and were disgusted at its usage in the media." [6]
"many in the Bombay film industry find the term derogatory" [7]
want more? the industry itself does not use this term for self-identification and im sorry but i cannot paste you quotes of every single person in the industry but those are some of them. therefore even though it is the most common name, the self-identification criteria carries more weight
"A city, country or people, by contrast, is a self-identifying entity: it has a preferred name for itself. The city formerly called Danzig now calls itself Gdańsk. These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name. Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.", Wikipedia So even though you think it SHOULD be Bollywood because so many people call it that, that is not what it IS. "Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. ", Wikipedia
please see WP:SELFIDENTIFYING
Nsrav ( talk) 08:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
Oh okay so 7 sources isn't enough to validate the claim that most of the industry calls itself by that name, and you expect me to give you a source for every person in the industry. yet you can claim the industry calls itslelf bollywood without listing a single source. 'plain as day'? more like, an assumption made by yourself. I think my point about naming the page considering what the group calls itself remains valid because you have no backing to say that the industry calls itself bollywood. Nsrav ( talk) 02:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav
Hi, I have made some some changes to the finance section. There have been very minor deletions such as "Bollywood budgets are modest by Hollywood standards" this is not necessary or significant. I have instead given figures for the budgets with the celing of $10 million, the highest so far and future project budgets(Mahabhatata)
I have also mentioned something on the hiring of international technicians and given examples of Krrish and Love Story 2050, as they are particularly notesworthy in hiring reputable international talent.
I intend to write something on Hollywood and Bollywood co-productions later, as that is another area of finance appearing for Bollywood today.
No major changes. We've been patrolling for major vandalism, but small things slip past our guard. Possibly the only contentious edit will be my addition of material re the language of Bollywood films. I stressed that dialogues tend to be written so as to be comprehensible to the largest possible audience, and added a comment from Suketu Mehta re initial composition in English. I need to buy my own copy of that book, and get a page number for that cite. Zora 23:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I restored the references to Hindustani and Pakistan. The Hindi movie industry served ALL of what is now North India and Pakistan before the Partition, it is still extremely popular in Pakistan, despite bans, it is to a great extent run by Punjabi refugees from the Partition, and the language used, per all the references I have, is directed at the same swathe of territory served before the Partition. That's to a great extent a commercial decision, to get the largest possible audience. I also strongly object to labeling Devanagari and Nastaliq scripts as Hindi and Urdu. The underlying language is the same, only the script is different. I gather that participants in a number of North Indian/Pakistani web fora are using Roman characters to write Hindustani, so that they can communicate unimpeded by script differences. This would be impossible if the underlying language weren't basically the same (skewing of formal vocabulary aside). I strongly object to the consensus of academic, scientific linguistics being jettisoned in favor of accentuating communal hatreds and political differences.
We had a sentence in there at one point saying that the whole language question was hotly contested and that readers should look at the Hindi, Urdu, and Hindustani articles to get an idea of the issues. I think that sentence was removed in one of the ethnic cleansing drives to which this article has been subjected, and I think it would help to restore it. We can't discuss the language question here, but we can point readers to the places where it is discussed. Zora 03:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Bharatveer, do you think that there is not one person in the entire world who have watched a Bollywood film, understand it comfortably (so they have a good understanding of Hindi/Urdu) but only know how to write this language in the Arabic script? If you do think this, then I think you're wrong and if you don't, then the Arabic script is for these people. Gizza Chat © 06:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
You can't revive a year and half old poll. Nor is the input from editors who don't work on film-related articles particularly helpful. Zora 09:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a really good article. I saw interviews on Film 2006 tonight with Bollywood producers etc, making the point that over the next decade they will produce in more varied genres - presumably spy thrillers, horror and so on. Anyone know more about this? Thanks.-- Shtove 00:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Why did Centrx remove this? It is a valid category regrouping many articles. If you remove the one in this article, why not remove them on all the others? Sfacets 07:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Whatever the case, you should take it up on the Category talk page rather than here. Excluding a category from one article and not the rest seems dubious, and undermines the category maintenance. Besides that, nowhere in wiki policy is it written that a category cannot regroup grammatical terms. Sfacets 07:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone added an academic article to See Also, where it didn't belong. I thought at first that this was self-promotion, but after checking out the conference at which it was presented, I discovered that BASAS was a reputable organization and that the paper had in fact won special mention on the association web page. So I set up a new selection for the paper. Links to other academic papers would be good. I found a paper on Roja, for the same year -- is that considered Tamil cinema only, or is it a Bollywood film also? Zora 07:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is a magnet for linkspam, and various editors keep removing it. That is a nasty but necessary chore and I very much appreciate everyone who does it. However -- fairly often, editors also remove Upperstall. That is not a fansite, it's non-commercial, and it's good, academic-quality information. I think editors are removing it just because they haven't looked at it.
I'm open for argument on the subject -- if after looking at the site, other editors want to remove it and there's a consensus that we should, I'll bow to the consensus. Zora 01:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I have added a new link which i think it VERY INFORMATIVE and USEFUL, Bollywoodistan.com
What do you think?
C'mon www.bollywoodistan is a DIRECTORY which links to everything bollywood. It is very useful Zora!
Google links to everything Bollywood. We don't need commercial directories. We won't host your advertising. Zora 22:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
This is the only reference in the entire article that refers to the Bollywood moral film codes. Please expand. SchmuckyTheCat 20:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a nice introductory article. It seems a little bit lightly sourced, but what would I know. I knew nothing about Bollywood except it was Indian film before reading this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Powerlad ( talk • contribs) 04:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
Bichhdey abhi to hum, bas kal parso, jiyoongi main kaisey, is haal mein barson? Maut na aayi, teri yaad kyon aayi, Haaye, lambi judaayi!
Devanāgarī: "बिछड़े अभी तो हम, बस कल परसों," "जियूँगी मैं कैसे, इस हाल में बरसों?" "मौत न आई, तेरी याद कयों आई?" "हाय, लंबी जुदाई!"
(This is not Nasta'liq, Nasta'liq is a very specific font, ie Times New Roman, and this is not that font. I changed it to just "urdu" in the main article, if there is a better word to describe things written in the urdu alphabet please change it to that. ***see wikipedia entry for Nasta'liq***
Nasta'liq: بچھڑے ابھی تو ہم، بس کل پرسوں جیوں گی میں کیسے، اس حال میں برسوں؟ موت نہ آئی، تیری یاد کیوں آئی؟ !ہاۓ، لمبی جدائی
Translation: We have been separated just a day or two, How am I going to go on this way for years? Death doesn't come; why, instead, do these memories of you? Oh; this long separation!
Does anyone else find this wording confusing? "Over 90% of the Pakistanni population watch Bollywood films alone," Do they really watch them alone, as in 'one ticket, please'? Or do they watch only Bollywood films? What is this supposed to mean? And where does this statistic come from? Should somebody add one of those 'citation needed' stickers?
I think writing the Devanagari and Nasta`liq spellings of "Bollywood" is just not relevant. This word is made of two English words so what do these other scripts have to do with it? And Indians themselves almost don't use it. It makes no sense to me. BernardM 09:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The whole entire section of how popular Bollywood is supposed is around the world is full of nonsense. Nobody in America except for South Asians or maybe Middle Easterners like Bollywood movies. In America, actors in musicals are expected to act, dance, AND sing. I suspect Bollywood is not at all popular in any other country where acting requires more than just physical appeal and movies are expected to be more sophisticated.
"Bollywood" is not "popular" in America. "Popular" would infer at least a majority of the people know something about it, let alone watch it. The claims of popularity in this article are biased and far-fetched. It would be good if there was some legitimacy on that part. What do you others think? While I do not deny it is impressive, how is the 100 million that is reportedly brought in yearly by Indian films even close to the many billions Hollywood brings in? Seriously, this article is inflated. rotinajeht —Preceding comment was added at 18:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Definitions of popular (first four in google search: "define: popular"):
I think it is important to be more specific here, certainly you are wrong in saying that an industry which generates $100 million in the United States isn't in the slightest bit popular but indeed you need to clarify who forms the strength of the market. Howver even in the source given it is important to show that much of the revenue is generated from the major cities and indeed amongst the south asian communities rather than evenly across America. I'm sure there are many white americans in the United States in the cities who have seen Bollywood films but I;d imagine if you did a survey of the gross earnings of the industry in North America you;d find much of it is generated from the larger cities where watching indian movies amongst the south asian diaspora has become a significant part of their culture - the source states that "Amongst south asian populations, in the larger cities, mega stars like AMitabh and SRK are bigger celebrities than Pitt or Cruise. I'm sure though that to generate $100 million there would have to be a significant watching of the films by other ethnicities also -you can't make a generalization either that nobody in America watches them. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 16:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I made changes to the History section of the article to reflect the fact that although Bollywood did start shooting movies in colour in the late 1950s (for instance, Mother India, which was released in 1957), the majority of films continued to be shot in black-and-white until the mid-1960s. Although there were quite a few successful colour movies in the early 60s (e.g. Junglee, Taj Mahal, Mere Mehboob) there were also many more B&W films to balance it out (e.g. Sahib Bibi Aur Ghulam, Bandini, Woh Kaun Thi?, etc.). I personally date the transition from majority B&W to majority colour as being around 1965, with quite a few colour films I can think of (Waqt, Guide, Jab Jab Phool Khile, Arzoo just to name a few) being released in this year.
Also, I made changes to the history timeline which describes what was popular, in particular altering the dates. If anyone disagrees with my edits to this or the B&W/colour issue, it's open to discussion below. Gujuguy 16:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Quick question from a North American. Is there a reference to the ban or censorship of Bollywood media? The popularity and appeal paragraph assumes prior knowledge of "the ban" which I assume relates to Censorship in Pakistan. Although, that article and a related one about internet censorship do not refer directly to censorship of movies. I would also assume that not just Bollywood, but an entire spectrum of film media might be restricted. Group29 16:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Everybody in Pakistan watches Bollywood films.
Don't agree with that. In countries like Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador, Bollywood is quite popular. Pages like Mundo Bollywood, with almost 2.000 visitors per day, are the best example. Bollywood is becoming popular in Spain, but it IS popular in Peru.
The article had some info on Peru removed - a google search shows over 6000 hits for "Bollywood Peru" so it does appear significant. I have therefore included some basic info. Fanx ( talk) 21:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I added a tag saying that the citations on this page need to be removed. Oceania, Africa, and Plagiarism all make very strong claims about numbers, laws, and popularity, with not support to back them up. I've added a few {{ Fact}} tags as well. 17:13, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
There are still no citations for Oceania or Africa, and a single citation in nearly an entire page of information on finances. Is there a reason the "needs citations" tag has been removed? Reyemile 02:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
== sharukhan background
sharukhan is from AFGHANISTAN he belongs to pashton background
The article says: Bollywood films have been misleadingly classified as musicals, because few films are made without at least one song-and-dance number. This classification is something of a misnomer, as a Bollywood film is expected to contain a number of elements, and one of the essentials is catchy music in the form of song-and-dance numbers woven into the script. Indeed, a film's music is often released before the movie itself and helps increase the audience. Song-and-dance numbers are default content for Bollywood films, and defining the films as musicals would not be done by the Indian public. This seems very much a non-sequitur to me. How does the fact that an essential element of a Bollywood film is "catchy music in the form of song-and-dance numbers woven into the script" make it misleading to classify them as musicals? That seems like the definition of a musical to me. As the article on musical film says, "the musical film is a film genre in which several songs sung by the characters are interwoven into the narrative." PubliusFL 22:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
They frequently employ formulaic ingredients such as star-crossed lovers and angry parents, love triangles, family ties, sacrifice, corrupt politicians, kidnappers, conniving villains, courtesans with hearts of gold, long-lost relatives and siblings separated by fate, dramatic reversals of fortune, and convenient coincidences. ^^this line is confusing, long, and biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.94.221 ( talk) 23:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The main problem with this page was the section "Popularity and appeal" which was a full POV, full of admiration, exeptional claims and in need of an urgent clean-up. Therefore, I did the clean-up:) Toned down, removed unreferenced and disputed statements, unencyclopedic and POV claims. I've gone trough the whole page, and chacked it. It looks good (It was previously written by the great User:Zora).
As major clean-up was done, and a lot of improvement was shown down the last 24 hours, I've removed the tags.
If someone feels that tags are still needed, my requests are:
My best regards, Shahid • Talk2me 07:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I want to share a web which has a great library of bollywood songs so I would like to contribute this link in the bollywood songs article the link is http://www.zekty.com/songs/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.133.77.46 ( talk) 18:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I changed one of the last sentences in the intro paragraph to flow a bit better. Hope the editor group doesn't mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.19.42 ( talk) 15:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Over the years, Bollywood, whose annual output of over 800 films a year, and an audience of 3.6 billion people has shown progress in its popularity, and has been entering the consciousness of Western audiences and producers.[9]
Really? Half the world watches movies they don't understand? The source for this claim only says 3.6 billion tickets sold, and I'm assuming it means the sum of all tickets sold from every movie made that year. Can someone change this? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.228.136 ( talk) 05:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
This is bullshit. Bollywood doesn't make 800 films per year and the audience is not 3.6 billion people large. The source is ridiculous. There is a tiny reference, that this is the "national" outcome. Every film industry in India is included. -- Thirusivaperur ( talk) 01:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Instead of saying what Bollywood is not, can we please mention what it is?
Bollywood is often incorrectly used to refer to the whole of Indian cinema; it is only a part of the Indian film industry.
However, unlike Hollywood, Bollywood does not exist as a real physical place.
Though some deplore the name, arguing that it makes the industry look like a poor cousin to Hollywood, it seems likely to persist and now has its own entry in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Bollywood is commonly referred to as Hindi cinema, even though Hindustani, understood as the colloquial base common to both Hindi and Urdu, might be more accurate.
The use of poetic Urdu words is fairly common. There has been a growing presence of Indian English in dialogue and songs as well. It is not uncommon to see films that feature dialogue with English words and phrases, even whole sentences. There is a growing number of films made entirely in English.
How is this an introduction to what Bollywood is?
Nikkul ( talk) 18:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Since plagarism is a big thing in bollywood, there should at least be a section that links it to the Bollywood Plagarism article. I put it in yestarday, but someone deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.229.176 ( talk) 17:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
In the introduction, there should be the reference, that the Hindi film industry is also known as Bollywood. This is an encyclopedia, not a marketing company. -- Thirusivaperur ( talk) 01:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I know we have been through this before but since the sentence has reappeared in the article and if I'm correct, since an edit war is in place on this issue, let me reiterate. Bollywood in the sense of Hindi film industry is NOT the largest film producers in the world. If you are talking about whole of Indian cinema industries included, then this is not the correct article for the claim. The reference given wrongly calls whole Indian film industry as Bollywood, so we shouldn't use that reference. What amazes me is, List of Bollywood movies released in 2007 has only about 100 names. So where are all the remaining 800 movies if Bollywood indeed produces 1000 movies per year? Not logical, is it? Gnanapiti ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
There has been a tremendous tie between the 2 institution of Bollywood and cricket. Perhaps a small section can be in the works? You have first the kashmir ki kali (what's her name?) and pataudi. then lagaan, and various other films. can be in the offing? Lihaas ( talk) 21:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we can split of the international section into something that can talk of the foreign popularity and India's politics soft power?
In this regard, I added back the South Africa stuff. I also moved back some stuff with currently dubious sources/unsourced info, with tag (for a shortwhile) new sources can be found.
The "tidbit" on South africa that follows the gandhi, my father part may not appear directly relevant, but it gives context to the enduring legacy (chamber of commerce head is quite high-profile), and political gain.
Also the addition of the following is important and is shows the reason for the popularity vis-a-vis Hollywood. Or maybe this has more relevance the question above
Also not sure why this was removed: "Additionally, many more movies have shot songs or significant scenes in countries like Mauritius and Kenya."
Also not sure why the Carib. stuff was removed? Lihaas ( talk) 12:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Why do I always see statements exaggerating in the use of English language & promoting it on purpose. The received message is: "English is the best of the best & if you don't use it, you are an ignorant. :( ENOUGH -- Mahmudmasri ( talk) 11:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we can split of the international section into something that can talk of the foreign popularity and India's politics soft power? On the Kabul embassy bombings page, as one such example, the article talks about India's soft power, one such reason was the spread of Bollywood. On this article, as there is already a section on the global popularity, we can then split that section off into a "Global popularity of Bollywood" or some such article to cover both. Instead of having one seperately on this aspect of India's soft power and non-aggressive policial maneouvering, and then facing a merge debate, it could be a good idea to merge here. Lihaas ( talk) 22:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Popularity and Appeal -> Russia and Eastern Europe
"Bollywood films have been dubbed into Russian, and shown in prominent theatres such as Mosfilm and Lenfilm." This does not make sense, as neither Mosfilm nor Lenfilm is a theatre. They're both cinema studios. I believe this reference should be edited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.93.155.218 ( talk) 16:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
who keeps on deleting it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.248.7 ( talk) 04:49, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I would like to dispute the proposition that "V. Shantaram's Do Aankhen Barah Haath (1957) is believed to have inspired the Hollywood film The Dirty Dozen (1967)." Kindly review this statement after having watched Seven Samurai (1954) by Akira Kurosawa. Regards, Quindecillion ( talk) 09:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
User:Shshshsh is a knowledgeable editor, but he shows WP:OWN by blanket-reverting and by restoring fan-level writing that violates WP:TONE, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. I have changed back only those things, and I hope he'll say that I have carefully gone back over his edits and restored every other one of them.
I hope by this example that Shshshsh will discuss specific edits here first, rather than blanket-revert other editors' well-thought-out, good-faith edits. -- 207.237.223.118 ( talk) 13:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
According to the article, The term is often incorrectly used to refer to the whole of Indian cinema; it is only a part of the Indian film industry.
The question is, who is to say that this is an "incorrect" use? There is no "official" definition for this term. Most usage of this term makes no distinction between Hindi movies and movies made in other Indian languages, or between movies made in one Indian city versus another. Bollywood refers to Indian movies. Typical characteristics include song-and-dance sequences and melodramatic plots, and these characteristics are not limited to movies made in any one Indian city or language. 71.112.85.223 ( talk) 15:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)latha
This is just another funny Sh* discussion. It's obvious for all people, that Bollywood is mostly referred to whole Indian cinema, just Sh* is keeping the WP:TRUTH in his holy hands. -- 91.130.91.92 ( talk) 23:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I just want to add another point in support of Bollywood as Hindi film industry. Whenever a Kollywood, Tollywood or any other language film actor/directo/or any crew member, even if a big star in their language films, signs a Hindi film, it's reported in the media as the particular actor is trying their hand in Bollywood now. Even though that actor is a big star and works in Indian cinema, is NOT a Bollywood actor till they work in a Hindi movie. for example:
http://www.indiaglitz.com/channels/telugu/article/50948.html
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/02/24/stories/2009022460311200.htm
http://www.articlesbase.com/humor-articles/can-tollywood-reach-bollywood-standards-1137149.html
Bollywood has been used in India for decades to refer to Hindi film industry. Calling Telugu, Tamil, Bengali or other language films as Bollywood is plain ignorance. And there are seperate wikipedia articles for other film industries like Kollywood and Tollywood. 86.20.43.242 ( talk) 01:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I've currently put a protection on these articles (currently redirects) that redirect to Bollywood#Plagiarism. The central concern is Bollywood and plagiarism is voiced by Dr. Blofeld (and I paraphrase) as it is a POV fork, potentially libelous (which verges on WP:BLP problems) - see here for initial concerns. I'm starting the discussion here to see if there is any additional information to be offered here (see Talk:Bollywood films and plagiarism for various arguments). Any admin is welcome to unprotect if they see these were done incorrectly, but I do note that I do share Dr. Blofeld's concerns about the BLP issues that could easily be raised in the accusations of plagiarism against the film directors, etc. Skier Dude ( talk) 23:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Exactly. Imagine you are a film director struggling to make an income in a competitive industry. And some mainstream central website like wikipedia reels off lists of films of your films which "they" perceive to be copies of other films. It could affect seriously affect the career of the makers of these films. Especially the screenwriters accused of plagiarism it could even prevent them getting new film work as producers may fear facing possible future law suits if certain screenwriters have a "reputation for plagiarism". It sounds a bit extreme but if you think about it it is a pretty serious issue to allege these films are close copies by law. Sure there might be similarities and a few of them pretty obvious but it is certainly not our place to list them without any references or reliable evidence. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, how exactly does this list of alleged films further the advance of encyclopedic knowledge? Assessing what or what has not been plagiarised is totally original research and a subjective one in that there is no measure to what level it can be described as plagiarism. Some films may have certain scenes which resemble another film others may have very extreme copied central plotlines and the whole works so you can't paint every film as the same level. Its too problematic, especially when this is just an encyclopedia and it is certainly not up to us to pass judgements based on original research. A paragraph on the subject addressing the general problem of plagiarism in the industry in summarised form is the way we should be doing it. Dr. Blofeld White cat 23:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I am amazed at the kind of illogical argument that is presented here by Dr Blofeld. His argument implies that when struggling film producers plagiarize hollywood films, it is okay or even required of us to look the other way. Please explain to me again why it is not possible to succeed in hindi film industry with original themes? His argument that it is libellous to accuse films of plagiarism doesn't hold water either. Is it libellous to accuse a thief of stealing? It is obvious to anyone who has seen a hollywood film and the bollywood version of it that they are copied. What is wrong with saying that? why are we scared of speaking the truth? It seems Dr. Blofeld has an agenda of protecting bollywood and doesn't really care about the truth.
Pepe962 ( talk) 12:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I couldn't give a crap about protecting Bollywood in all honesty but I know when articles are pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable, I live thousands of miles away from India in a place in the UK where Bollywood films are unheard of. You are seriously deluded if you think my main goal in life is to serve as to serve in some sort of Bollywood directors protective unit. I am fully aware that many Bollywood films are utter rubbish and are directly copied from Hollywood films, you;d be suprised also by how many Hollywood film are utter rubbish and steal ideas from foreign films actually. I "know" that many Bollywood films are embarrasingly similar to Hollywood films but that doesn't mean it is necessary to list every one of them. Even one of the best western films A fistful of Dollars was stolen from Yojimbo. The question is why do you feel the need to list every film which you think might be copied based on your own suspicions and original research on a site like wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not some fricking watchdog outlet. If you care so much about exposing the "dirty scoundrels" in Bollywood who steal ideas set up your own website or blog exposing them. This is wikipedia an encyclopedia not a forum for listing and discussin copied films. IN all honesty can you imagine any book on general knowledge listing a bunch of films which bear resemblance to others. Its pathetic evne pitiful given that your clear aim as stated on here is to expose copied films and "punish" film directors and screenwriters. Dr. Blofeld White cat 12:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Hmm..so I am seriously deluded? Doesn't that qualify as slander? About plagiarism, Hollywood does it too, so why can't Bollywood do it..is that your argument? How illogical is that?
There are plenty of differences between wikipedia and a standard encyclopedia. If you wan't a standard encyclopedia, why not go to a library and borrow instead of trying to build one on the internet. The very basis of the Internet itself is to provide and openly exchange information without any fear or favour. What is wrong with putting a list of copied films? If you feel it is not justified to say that a certain film is copied, you are free in the great tradition of wikipedia to remove that entry from the list, but you on the other hand are hell bent on removing the entire list without leaving any trace evidence.
Pepe962 ( talk) 12:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
You are completely missing the point. Plagiarism is common in many film industries across the world, not just Bollywood. Films from pretty much most industries have been accused of copying plot ideas since early film. We are not here to pass moral judgements on whether it is right for Bollywood to do so or Hollywood to do so if you thought I was claming this I suggest you reread what I said, the fact is you felt it was necessary to start listing every single individual film in a table which you thought was copied which is not appropriate when there is no official way in which it can be put forward as fact, it is a subjective matter and films are likely to vary significantly in how much they are plagiarised. How exactly do you measure if a film is plagiarised. Sure many films have similar scenes and plot ideas boy meets girl, girls meets boy, disaster happens broken hearted some scenes may be very similar so this qualifies as plagiarism? Hundreds of Post grunge new rock bands churn out very similar sounding riffs and tunes, plagiarised? There are thousands of films in which you could claim are plagiarised but how exactly does this improve wikipedia? Yes it is true that we are not paper so our scope of covering articles is far greater. However this does not mean we are a trash can for everything and anything especially if articles are potentially libellous and could potentially affect the lives of living people. You have not given me one reason why you think lists of copied films are even remotely encyclopedic and why the average wikipedia user could give a monkeys about it. Your explanation is that these directors need to be exposed and we must not hide the truth. The paragraph in the main article more than clearly states that plagiarism is a major problem in Bollywood but to start assessing every film in a list with its own articles is completely inappropriate. Not only this but in individual film articles providing you give reliable references you can mention that the film was accused of plagiarism as it is in the right context to do so, hardly hiding it. There ar elikely 1000s of films which bear resemblance at varying degrees but who are you to assess exactly what is plagiarised or what is not? Wikipedia is here to expose existing knowledge not original research based on personal observations. Now I've had enough of discussing such a pointless topic as this. Dr. Blofeld White cat 12:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
1) If there are films from other films industries which are copied, they should be listed too. Why hide that information? Putting a list of copied films in not passing moral judgment, it is just providing information to whoever is interested. I agree, mentioning that a film is copied is a subjective matter and not objective, but there are plenty of such topics on wikipedia. I would go so far as to say that every topic on wikipedia can be assessed subjectively. Wikipedia is not a scientific paper. No mathematical proof can be provided that a film is copied, but does that mean we should stop providing this information?
2) Some topics are 'encyclopedic' while others are not? How do we define which ones are 'encyclopedic'? If only topics which can be found in an standard encyclopedia are 'encyclopedic' then wikipedia should be 10% of its size.
3)What about the lives of people whose original work was plagiarized? You seem unconcerned about their lives.
I am tired of this discussion too. I request Skier Dude to be fair and restore the Bollywood and Plagiarism page.
Pepe962 ( talk) 13:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Its really not a case of which one of us is right. You're not seeing things from a wikipedia perspective. The article failed the article criteria on just about every score as Shahid explained to you and you have refusued to accept what more people have said than yourself as clearly shown in the editing history by your disruption to various people. Skier chose the course of action not because either of us felt a certain way but because of the problems having an unsourced list could potentially create and its history of disruption which from a neutral pount is very clear and if Skier hadn't of locked it any other admin such as Yellow Monkey etc would have. I couldn't care less about the side of the plagiariser or the one who has been "robbed", wikipedia is not here to be sympathetic to either view or side although if it is potentially libellous and speculative information is presented as "fact" then I take it very seriously. Please try to see this site from a different perspective rather than chasing your own beliefs that plagiarism is wrong and the culprits should be identifed, Its not what we are about, any good editor can see this. It basically sums it up in Wikipedia:No original research which your list was clearly guilty of and its not only a few of us, this is a widely accepted guidleine to what should be included on here. Several paragraphs could probably we written on it in the main article in prose providing it is well written, balanced and sources as a general evaluation of the problem itself not going into reeling off EVERY single film. Dr. Blofeld White cat 13:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
aaah...my old friend Shahid is here. His hobby is to revert back everyone else's work quoting some WP:XYZ. He thinks it is not disruptive editing as long you correctly/incorrectly mention WP:XYZ. Both of you seem to be forgetting that the very spirit of wikipedia is collaborative working. This means extend/enhance/correct each other's work and not to remove complete pages of information or extensive work done by other people.
Hiding information is not in the spirit of wikipedia. There is no WP:XYZ for this.
Pepe962 ( talk) 14:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Extensive work? You have less than 20 edits in two years. Hardly extensive. Unless of course you count the many sock accounts you operate under all on one thing, Bollywood and plagiarism. Information exists on the annual sales of tampons in supermakrkets in the UK. Do we have specific articles realing of figures by year and which colours sell more? No. We choose not the have an article on it not because we hide information but because to normal people it has no encyclopedic value or relevance. Add to that a distinct lack of sources an reliable evidence to back up your claim and it makes your claims completely inappropriate. What part about no original research don't you get? Perhaps you ought to take a break and listen to some Hanson, good ole home boys from Tulsa eh? Actually MmmBop was similar to a British band's song in the early 1990s, does this mean we start listing all of Hanson's and plagiarised songs? Dr. Blofeld White cat 15:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The Bollywood and Plagiarism page has been around and edited over several years. To get to its current form (before the page was deleted) involved collaboration by many people. The only 'contribution' from Shahid has been to blindly revert back changes as is his hobby as I mentioned previously.
I admit that I have been lazy to login before making some edits, but remember that wikipedia allows this. The allegation that I am a sock is a completely baseless attack on my character. I do not hold multiple user accounts.
Pepe962 ( talk) 15:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Shahid, you adding 'End of Discussion' does not bind me or anyone else to end the discussion. Remember that you don't own wikipedia.
About the Inspector Closseau like proof you provided is simply to a fact I just admitted in the previous paragraph, which is that I sometime am too lazy or forget to log on. I have never denied that. What I am denying is to the allegation that I am a sock or that I hold multiple accounts. Got any proof of this?
I hope Skier Dude or any other Admin of wikipedia will read this entire discussion and take the appropriate decision.
Pepe962 ( talk) 15:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The argument for Neutrality Re-examined:
It has been argued here that putting up a list of copied films does not meet neutrality requirements of wikipedia.
Jesus is considered a God by many people - Is this a neutral statement? It is factually correct. It does not provide any opinions one way or the other.
The Bollywood film Criminal is considered to be a copy of the hollywood film The Fugitive by many people - Is this a neutral statement? How is this statement different from the previous statement?
If a well known fact offends some people, should it be considered as Not neutral?
The lack of sources argument Re-examined:
It has been argued here that there is no way to verify that a film is a copy of another film, hence it is only opinion of the individuals editing the page. I would like to make 3 points in response to this. 1) How is it opinion to make a factually correct statement like The Bollywood film Criminal is considered to be a copy of the hollywood film The Fugitive by many people?
2) If there is a WP:XYZ which quotes that EVERY SINGLE SENTENCE on wikipedia has to be sourced, I'd like to see it. It defeats the very purpose of wikipedia which is to compile the information in a collaborative manner from internet users. Why repeat the information which is in other places?
3) If you go to each of the individual wiki pages of some of the copied films, you will find that users have mentioned the Hollywood films they are copied from. If it can be mentioned here, why not in a list?
How do we control it when people make false allegations about movies being copied? Just like we control everything else on wikipedia - by collaborative editing.
The libel argument Re-examined:
It has been argued that listing films which are copied is libellous. Libel is when you make a false statement to harm another individual. Is it libel to say that The LTTE is considered a terrorist organization by several countries? This is a factually correct statement and is in no way considered as libel. So why is it libel when we say The Bollywood film Criminal is considered to be a copy of the hollywood film The Fugitive by many people?
Based on the rebuttal I presented above for the incorrect arguments made to deleting the Bollywood and Plagiarism page, I request the Administrators again that this page be re-opened.
Pepe962 ( talk) 09:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Well done Shahid. Laughable..is that your only response to the points I made? Sounds like you don't have any points in response.
The 'Unencyclopedic' argument Re-examined:
It has been argued that putting a list of copied films is Unencyclopedic. So what exactly does Unencyclopedic really mean? Open any dictionary and there is NO SUCH WORD.
If anything that is not in a Encyclopedia in Unencyclopedic then probably 90% of wikipedia is Unencyclopedic since it contains information not found in a standard encyclopedia.
One of the examples given here by a user was that the yearly sales figures of tampons in a region is Unencyclopedic. Does that imply Unencyclopedic means Irrelevant? Lets re-examine the Bollywood and Plagiarism page with this 'standard'. The page has been updated by several users over several years. It is a topic of active interest and can hardly be considered irrelevant.
Moreover, why such an urgency to go behind it and delete a topic which no one is supposedly interested in?
Pepe962 ( talk) 10:54, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
So you admit 'Unencyclopedic' is a word used only on wikipedia. Its ironic (and laughable) that the person who likes to harp on providing sources is using a non existent word to win an debate.
Pepe962 ( talk) 11:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Lets see about that. This topic is still open to discussion, even if you wish it were not. Pepe962 ( talk) 12:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
You're wasting your time as noone is going to revert Skier's changes. Just drop it and do something useful with your time. Dr. Blofeld White cat 12:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Skier can revert his own changes if he is convinced. I am hoping he will be.
Pepe962 ( talk) 13:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Why do Shahid and Dr Blofeld keep trying to convince me to give up? I wan't to know Skier's response to the points I made in green above. Pepe962 ( talk) 14:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
This word does not need to be in both the intro paragraph and the etymology section, it is redundant. It needs to be removed from the intro for it is not a vital part of the subject. Drinkybird ( talk) 23:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
There are a number of other matters that need to be included and cross referenced to other wikipedia articles. Blocking the editing of the article is impeding such efforts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.201.107 ( talk) 05:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Why is it spelled बॉलीवूड in the introductory sentence? Isn't it pronounced बॉलीवुड? GSMR ( talk) 15:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The user who's been known for editing Wiki for only one reason is back and he adds some court case to the section about Fox suing BR Films. For that matter, it is unnecessary and irrelevant in the Bollywood page. It is relevant in the film's page, not here. The plagiarism section is here to show the matter, not to list incidents associated with it. This section is not a list - two examples are sufficiently fine to discuss the matter and show the criticism Bollywood has faced. Adding another one adds no value at all. WP:IINFO and WP:UNDUE show that. Shahid • Talk2me 14:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not to move the page, per the discussion below. A decision on whether or not to split the article is outside the scope of RM and can be discussed separately, although any article split from this one must avoid becoming a fork. Dekimasu よ! 05:07, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
The name bollywood does no justice to Hindi Cinema. Even American movie industry's name is not hollywood check Cinema of the United States. What is the rationale of keeping the name bollywood. Specially when the city is not anymore named Bombay? I was trying to rename it to Hindi Cinema which is much more appropriate, but it got misspelled as Hindi Cinena and would not rename to Hindi Cinema, so I had to change it to Hindi Movie Industry. Bollywood in no way is a justified name. Why dont you rename the Indian people name to Curries just because thats the name for them popular in Australia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nihits ( talk • contribs) 08:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please rename it to Hindi Cinema? I renamed it but some dude started threatening me to remove my account Nihits ( talk) 08:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know when was the term bollywood first used? maybe in late 80s or early 90s, and no one called it that until its 50 years of history before that.. Its shameful a bunch of wannabe-cools can change the history and name of an industry which has given so much to art. Nihits ( talk) 08:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
User:Bigsuperindia keeps adding irrelevant information to the lead in violation of WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE. He keeps edit warring and his last edits are laughable. "Today Bollywood has become very popular in American and world" is not only a badly written line but is also inappropriate in the lead right after the term's definition. The source also does not explicitly support what the line claims. How come it came in the middle of nowhere here in the lead when entire sections describe its growth in the rest of the world? Why America? Why today? It's been so for years! And again, what is the relevance of this line in the very first paragraph of the lead?
What makes me think even more is the claim that Bollywood is known as the "Hollywood of Mumbai" (also cited by the user in the lead). Now how exactly does this sentence make sense when we all know that the term is derived from Bollywood and Bobmbay. And since when has this been a common title used to refer to this film industry? Where are more sources? And then again, what is the relevance of this line right in the lead? Shahid • Talk2me 00:21, 28 December 2009 (UTC)