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Dear Drs. Bogdanov,
As individuals who have studied the fields of physics, you will undoubtedly be familiar with the work of Richard P. Feynman, the architect of modern quantum electrodynamics and one of the most influential theoretical physicists of the 20th century. My knowledge of physics is only that of an academic minor in computational physics; I have long admired Feynman for his ability to distil very complex and wordy subjects into understandable, plain terms that make sense to an undergrad. The recent discourse on this article and talk page reminded me of an excellent lecture he gave at the Caltech announcement address in 1974 entitled "Cargo Cult Science" . I think the following quotations apply exceptionally well here:
With respect, and with no hard feelings on my part, you appear to be trying to do the exact opposite of this - trying to suppress the facts that disagree with your theory by removing them from the article, and questioning the motives and expertise of those who highlight them. Ultimately, your actions here on Wikipedia can be defined more or less as only that. It would be wrong of me to make assumptions on your work outside of Wikipedia based solely on that, because I haven't read your papers (well, I have read abstracts and made cursory examinations of your famous Initial singularity paper, but that isn't enough to make a proper judgement). That said, I do think this is indicative that you would, both on Wikipedia and in the scientific community at large, do well to take heed of Prof. Feynman's observation and to cultivate that absolute honesty of "bending over backwards" - specifically permitting those observations, and making them yourself, of those points that disagree with your theorem.
Taking another series of Feynman's lectures as an example, QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter, in that work he was capable of making his ideas understandable to a layman who does not have expertise in the field being taught; that is something else which I urge you to do, and to make your work available in a format that makes sense to those without your physics expertise. Then, nobody could impugn the bona fides of your work, since sound logical reasoning is generally clear regardless of the fields, and it would be possible for all of us comparative laymen to make sense of your work - and, if your work is as watertight to scrutiny as you consider it to be, that should be no problem.
In summary, I do think you would do well to reflect what you are actually doing against this benchmark, and to accept that the issues extend far beyond Wikipedia; just because we have an open editing community here does not mean that Wikipedia is in error by not agreeing with your viewpoint. Feynman is an excellent lead to take in your work.
Thank you, and I wish you all the best of luck in your endeavours.
Yours sincerely,
-- NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 01:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Testing Wikipedia:Semi-protection here both on the article and the talk page. Fred Bauder 12:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee will probably use Wikipedia:Semi-protection as a remedy in any case where there are lots of socks concentrating on one or several articles. Whack a mole is a terrible waste of time. Protection can be lifted at any time to test the situation but it is probably permanent. Fred Bauder 14:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The block for users involved in the external event has been extended to talk pages, per the arbcom. So LaurenceR was just blocked indefinitely. Just a heads up. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 12:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The "HKU" section is a complete mess in this article. First, Hong Kong University and Hong Kong University of Science and Technology are completely different institutions, and this article seems to contribute to this confusion. (It's like the difference between University of Massachussetts and MIT). Does anyone have any other sources for this part other than [1] ? -- Fuzheado | Talk 23:23, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the categorization modification that took place:
If new categories are to be added, then Category:Protoscience (which includes Category:String theory and Category:Quantum gravity) or Category:Pseudophysics could be considered. -- Ze miguel 21:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the assertion that the theses and articles were not intended as hoaxes. a hoax is meant as a joke. the Bogdanoffs' publications were not submitted as such, they were a means to an end, that is getting PH D's. If the theses and publications were indeed spurious (an opinion I tend to agree with on the basis of the caliber of some of the critics), the Bogdanoff case would more properly be qualified as a con. -- Svartalf 19:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
In response to a request from Glenzierfoot on 22:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC), I am unprotecting this article and talk page. Since I am not a party to this article in any way, I will keep track of it for a few weeks and will re-protect it if the problems start again. Hope things work out. Best,-- Alabamaboy 00:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
...this whole thing is. If I may jump in with some unasked for advice? Here's a tip: nobody -- NOBODY -- is gonna look at this article and say "Gee these Bogdanov brothers are the cat's pajamas! I mean, we are talking about some A-number-1 ace scientists here!" regardlass of what the B-Boys do. Nobody but a complete idiot, and idiots don't matter much. I mean, people can read between the lines. People can get the drift of somebody's case. So don't worry about it so much. It's not like the B-Boys are gonna get rehabilitated and rise to the Nobel Prize based on what's in this article. They are who they are. Chill y'all. My two cents. Herostratus 10:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
From Dissertation:
However, this article suggests that "mention honourable", when awarded by a university, is the lowest possible passing grade. One or the other is clearly wrong; I do not know which. If anyone would be so good as to explain this to me, I would be most grateful. Best regards, -- NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 06:37, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, but Ze Miguel comment in connection with the PHD mentions is not only approximate: it is false. The law of April 27, 2002 does not apply to the theses of Bogdanoff. The regulations which apply to the delivery of a doctorate depend only on the date on which the registration in thesis was made. In the case of the Bogdanoff brothers, it was in 1991. Therefore, the regulation that applies in their case is the law of 23 novembre 1988. Here is the law text ( http://www.andes.asso.fr/GUIDE/annexe/node11.php) :
"Toutefois, les dispositions de ces arrêtés restent applicables aux candidats inscrits en vue de l'obtention de l'un de ces diplômes et ayant choisi, conformément aux dispositions transitoires prévues par l'arrêté du 5 juillet 1984 relatif aux études doctorales. de poursuivre la préparation de leurs travaux et de les soutenir dans les conditions prévues par les textes antérieurement en vigueur."
In English: "However, the provisions of these decrees remain applicable to the candidates registered for obtaining one of these diplomas and having chosen, in accordance with the transitional provisions envisaged by the decree of 5 July 1984 relating to the doctoral studies to continue the preparation of their work and to support them under the conditions envisaged by the texts before in force."
It is clear. Grichka passed his thesis in 1999. Igor in 2002. They started their thesis in 1991, long before the "new doctorate" mentionned by Ze Miguel (27 april 2002). Therefore, as the law stipulates, the only legal text that applies to the Bogdanoff thesis is the text of July 5,1984 ( http://guilde.jeunes-chercheurs.org/Textes/Doct/A840705-2.html) :
"L'admission ou l'ajournement est prononcé après délibération du jury. L'admission peut donner lieu à l'attribution de l'une des mentions suivantes : passable, honorable ou très honorable."
In English: "the admission or the adjournment is pronounced after deliberation of the jury. The admission can induce the attribution of one of the following mentions: passable, honourable or very honourable."
I know well the circumstances in which Bogdanoff passed their theses at the University of Bourgogne. Taking into account their celebrity (and to avoid discussions), it was decided to allow a "discrete" passing grade to them (Honourable) and not at all "the lowest passing grade" (passable). Insofar as it was the text of 1984 which applied to the theses of Bogdanoff, the jury knew perfectly that the "Honourable" ranking was not the lowest one (which was indeed "passable"). Consequently what is written in this article is absolutely false and I will correctet it.
On January 10 / 2006, I sent an email to Nicholas Turnbull saying, in part : "I would like to correct with your help some critical errors or deformations without being suspected by some editors to rearrange the truth in our favour." Further in the mail, I presented some salient proofs regarding these errors and I was asking Nicholas to correct the article. Unfortunatly, Nicholas did not react to my message and I have to intervene myself on this page in order to modify the following point.
Here are some interesting things that we disclose here about the famous "CQG Official Statement" published here.
This "statement" was presented by Baez as an "official document" issued by CQG editorial board around november 1st 2002. In fact, as we wrote many times, it originally was merely an internal discussion which became "official" because it was presented and "seen" as such by many readers. Here are the proofs of what we claim.
First, here is a link towards an article of the bulletin of the "Physics-Astronomy-Mathematics division of SLA" http://www.sla.org/division/dpam/pam-bulletin/vol30/no3/physics.html
One finds, in reference n° 13 of the references quoted by the author :
http://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0211&L=pamnet#11
One can see the original and official text issued by Andrew Wray and H. Nicolaï of CGQ on November 11 2002, in response to the charges of hoax!!!
http://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211&L=pamnet&T=0&F=&S=&P=3647
As you can see, the so called "official statement" which circulated on SPR and elsewhere was only -as we said here some time ago- " a briefing note for CQG Editorial Board members, who were receiving enquiries from colleagues and the media. The "official" text that was clearly released in the public domain sounds quite different but was never known (because it was kept more or less secret by the californian physicists whose interest was to promote the "negative" version of Nov.1 instead.
Here is the integral version of November 11. As you can see, it reads very different from the previous version : http://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211&L=pamnet&T=0&F=&S=&P=3647
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:38:46 +0000 Reply-To: andrew.wray@iop.org Sender: "Archive of slapam-l (PAMnet)" <PAMNET@LISTSERV.ND.EDU> From: Andrew Wray <andrew.wray@iop.org> Subject: Classical and Quantum Gravity Comments: To: SLAPAM-L@lists.yale.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm writing on behalf of the Institute of Physics in response to a recent discussion on this list re the following paper: 'Topological field theory of the initial singularity of spacetime' by G Bogdanov and I Bogdanov, Class. Quantum Grav. 18 4341-4372 (2001) As you might expect, a number of our readers have contacted us about this and it has been widely discussed online. Our position is this: Classical and Quantum Gravity endeavours to publish original research of the highest calibre on gravitational physics. It is one of the highest standard journals in its field and makes continuous effort to maintain and improve the quality of research communication. In common with many journals, we consult among a worldwide pool of over 1,000 referees asking two independent experts to review each paper. A third referee is selected if the first two disagree. 45% of submitted articles are rejected and almost all accepted articles are revised before publication. The paper 'Topological field theory of the initial singularity of spacetime' by G Bogdanov and I Bogdanov made it through this review process and was therefore published in the normal way. At present, there are no plans to withdraw the article. Rather, the journal publishes refereed Comments and Replies by readers and authors as a means to comment on and correct mistakes in published material. We have passed this information on to the community and ask that if your colleagues enquire about this, you forward this e-mail on to them. Thank you for your help with this matter. Regards, Dr Andrew Wray Senior Publisher Classical and Quantum Gravity Institute of Physics Publishing Professor Hermann Nicolai Honorary Editor Classical and Quantum Gravity Albert Einstein Institute
It is clear that this version is almost the opposite of the "known" one. The text above protects CQG's referees, the quality of their work and the papers they allow to be published. This was a clear and legitimate reaction of the editorial board. Unfortunatly, since the community (represented, at that time, by Baez et al) seemed to be satisfied with the first "offensive" versione that circulated everywhere, Andrew Wray and Herman Nicolaï decided that the second version could as well sleep for ever in a forgotten place. This is exactly how an illigitimate "image" slowly invades some reality. This is exactly why our "Topological Field Theory" CQG paper became "an affair". All of the Wikipedian editors can check the veracity of what is presented here. Without violating any interdiction or being suspected of "vandalism", I will modify this point on the article and insert the legitimate version at the place of the non official one. I hope I will not be reverted because of this change that every honest editor could understand. In a more general way, I hold other proofs likely to correct other deformations or mistakes that I would like produce in the future (if I am allowed to do it, of course). Thank you for your attention. Igor
The reference to Sokal affair is wrong. The article states that the Sokal affair was to prove the shortcomings of peer-reviewing processes in theoretical physics, which is totally wrong. If I remember and understand correctly, the Sokal paper was poking fun at new liberal journals which publish any garbage without properly seeking advice or review from scientists; it's not poking fun at science or process of science itself. Can someone look into this? Temporary account 00:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm intrigued by the claim that the article has become "entangled with the external event", but not intrigued enough to read through the many archives here, and I didn't really see anything about it on the arbitration page.
(I'm assuming that "entangled" means more than merely that persons involved in the affair are editing the article; that's a commonplace. To me "entangled" suggests causality in the other direction; that is, that the article is somehow influencing ongoing events related to the Bogdanovs.)
So could we have a brief summary somewhere of this "entanglement"? -- Trovatore 23:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Why did you add one critic more against the Bogdanoff Brothers whereas you removed several sites rather positive for them ? Silasi 11:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I commented out the giant notice at the top of the article warning editors that they may be mistaken for sockpuppets. How long has the damn thing been up there? The Arbcom case closed about four months ago. Anyone who tries to edit the article will still see it in the edit box. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 18:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I know this article has been subjected to arbitration etc, anyway I want to give my opinion and purpose some changes. The article is about the Bogdanov Affair, it is not about the Bogdanov brothers. I am quite sure their papers where just an hoax, but still cannot understand the reasons for the following lines also receiving the same low passing grade of "honorable", one that is seldom given, as told to New York Times science reporter Dennis Overbye by Bogdanov Ph.D. advisor Dr. Daniel Sternheimer. In justifying the conferring of doctoral degrees to the Bogdanovs, Dr. Sternheimer told the Times, "These guys worked for 10 years without pay. They have the right to have their work recognized with a diploma, which is nothing much these days.
It seems to me this is afree attack against the brothers, more than an additional info about the Affair. I purpose to change it with (something like) ..."honorable", that is the lowest grade for passing the PhD examination... The current version sounds forced to me. gala.martin ( what?) 22:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Things like "Learn physics or don't interfer with facts.Wikibee is right.Galaxies were not "created" by space.Ask around you before reverting to a ridiculous sentence" make no sense, as far as I can say.
Simply put, soon after the beginning of the Universe, space was loaded with an enormous density of pure energy, which converted to matter - anti-matter, back to energy, and so on; hence the notion of "temperature" of the Universe (density of energy in space), the various "eras" of sub-aotmic particles which rythm the early instants of the Universe, and the puzzle about matter -- where is all the missing anti-matter gone ? So yes, you can say that space created matter, probably more that say that it did not.
Of course, I look forward to hearing what User:Alain r will say about this; I aknowledge that I hold a mere master in particle physics, while he is a specialist in cosmology. Rama 17:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The prior comparison of "This figure is extremely low when evaluated against the number of citations made to papers written by other physicists who have given critical evaluations of the Bogdanovs work." is not a proper comparison as it is highly misleading. The Boganovs are new to people who have been published, since 2002, they haven't had as much time to be cited as someone who did work in 1982, and has had time for their popularity and credibility to grow for 24 years, 20 years on the Boganovs. They probably are very uncited, but why not compare them to other graduates, first time published authors, who graduated in 2004. What is the average, etc?
I'm kinda surprised Rama freezes everyone who slightly diverges from his views of the article as a "sock P." of the brothers. I am not. And probably King Vegita is also not a sock P. Perhaps Rama should apply some physics training in order to understand correctly some edits. One thing to be a "pro" in sexuality drawings (User : Rama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rama/Sexuality_drawings) another one to be a good editor in physics. If you disagree you can always email me.
The article claims their papers were cited 3 times in seven papers, is that right? How can that be true? Zyxoas ( talk to me - I'll listen) 12:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
How old are they ? Have they really been TV presenters for a "few decades", which must be more than two ? -- Beardo 08:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The picture caption is very long. Is there the need for the detail about the big bang in this article? -- Robdurbar 18:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The following comes from the 1 November 2004 Lire, p. 107 No. 330, by Jean Audouze: [10]
I particularly like the characterization of the brothers as "two peacocks".
Oh, and this one is short and sweet. It comes from a review in Le Télégramme (8 October 2004), in which Samuel Uguen has some kind words for the Griffons la science educational festival. He starts by saying, "Le goût de la science doit s'acquérir très jeune avant que les chiffres, les formules ou les frères Bogdanov viennent pervertir tout cela." This translates as "The taste for science must be acquired very young, before figures, formulas or the Bogdanov brothers come to pervert it." Funny, funny stuff!
Anville 16:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I am curious: will the puppet theatre ever get tired of rewriting the CQG statement? The version we quote which they say can't be verified was, in fact, quoted by the New York Times, meaning that it's as verifiable as any damn thing in the Wikipedia. I also wonder which of these users are sockpuppets and which are meatpuppets:
Whew. Anville 22:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, and Sophie, who edited as User:213.237.21.6 and later as User:XAL and was accordingly zapped by the ArbCom, came back as User:213.237.21.242. Golly. Anville 23:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Anville 16:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Trying to track those thesis reports to their original lair is a real pain. The only website where anyone claimed they existed is this location at CERN, but those have been deleted, purportedly because they had been "doctored" by the Bogdanovs. CatharineV, one of the partisans banned by the ArbCom, has excerpts from these reports here, but, er. . . . WP:RS and all that.
Sigh. Exegesis always starts out so much fun and then decays into tedium. Anville 20:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The statement about Ciel et Espace getting sued was added by YBM, here. This edit summary implies that the French media have covered the legal dispute to some extent, but I haven't been able to find any specifics. Anville 19:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
While there's a todo list around, there are a couple of paragraphs I had trouble with, #3 and #4 of 'Media involvement'. Para-three contains various direct quotes that don't appear in the cited post, and has the word "interesting" was translated as "important" - is that wikt:important or fr:wikt:important? Para-four has "It's certainly possible that you have some new worthwhile results on quantum groups", was translated as "It is completely certain that you have obtained new worthwhile results on quantum groups", a nonsense English-English translation, when the cite (secondary report, not the book) provides French - in questions of translation accuracy it's surely manditory to provide the exact wording, in both languages. -- zippedmartin 08:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Ahem. To all the anon IPs/sockpuppets/meatpuppets complaining about the CQG e-mail, note that we don't get it from Baez's website, but from Greg Kuperberg via sci.physics.research. I note that none of them has complained about the referee reports for Classical and Quantum Gravity, the Czechoslovak Journal of Physics and the Chinese Journal of Physics which do come from Baez's website — hmmm, the plot thickens. Furthermore, each of these acts of sockpuppet theater remove thoroughly cited material from multiple mainstream, well-regarded news organizations. This is considered vandalism. Anville 19:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
It appears we have moved beyond the CQG-related sockpuppetry into a brave new world of théâtre de faux-nez! Now the issue is over "censored web sites". In my view, the External Links guideline would rule these out even if they weren't being pushed by sockpuppets, but that's a debate for a different day. In the meantime, here is the dramatis personae so far:
Be seeing you. Anville 18:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Dear Drs. Bogdanov,
As individuals who have studied the fields of physics, you will undoubtedly be familiar with the work of Richard P. Feynman, the architect of modern quantum electrodynamics and one of the most influential theoretical physicists of the 20th century. My knowledge of physics is only that of an academic minor in computational physics; I have long admired Feynman for his ability to distil very complex and wordy subjects into understandable, plain terms that make sense to an undergrad. The recent discourse on this article and talk page reminded me of an excellent lecture he gave at the Caltech announcement address in 1974 entitled "Cargo Cult Science" . I think the following quotations apply exceptionally well here:
With respect, and with no hard feelings on my part, you appear to be trying to do the exact opposite of this - trying to suppress the facts that disagree with your theory by removing them from the article, and questioning the motives and expertise of those who highlight them. Ultimately, your actions here on Wikipedia can be defined more or less as only that. It would be wrong of me to make assumptions on your work outside of Wikipedia based solely on that, because I haven't read your papers (well, I have read abstracts and made cursory examinations of your famous Initial singularity paper, but that isn't enough to make a proper judgement). That said, I do think this is indicative that you would, both on Wikipedia and in the scientific community at large, do well to take heed of Prof. Feynman's observation and to cultivate that absolute honesty of "bending over backwards" - specifically permitting those observations, and making them yourself, of those points that disagree with your theorem.
Taking another series of Feynman's lectures as an example, QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter, in that work he was capable of making his ideas understandable to a layman who does not have expertise in the field being taught; that is something else which I urge you to do, and to make your work available in a format that makes sense to those without your physics expertise. Then, nobody could impugn the bona fides of your work, since sound logical reasoning is generally clear regardless of the fields, and it would be possible for all of us comparative laymen to make sense of your work - and, if your work is as watertight to scrutiny as you consider it to be, that should be no problem.
In summary, I do think you would do well to reflect what you are actually doing against this benchmark, and to accept that the issues extend far beyond Wikipedia; just because we have an open editing community here does not mean that Wikipedia is in error by not agreeing with your viewpoint. Feynman is an excellent lead to take in your work.
Thank you, and I wish you all the best of luck in your endeavours.
Yours sincerely,
-- NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 01:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Testing Wikipedia:Semi-protection here both on the article and the talk page. Fred Bauder 12:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee will probably use Wikipedia:Semi-protection as a remedy in any case where there are lots of socks concentrating on one or several articles. Whack a mole is a terrible waste of time. Protection can be lifted at any time to test the situation but it is probably permanent. Fred Bauder 14:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The block for users involved in the external event has been extended to talk pages, per the arbcom. So LaurenceR was just blocked indefinitely. Just a heads up. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 12:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The "HKU" section is a complete mess in this article. First, Hong Kong University and Hong Kong University of Science and Technology are completely different institutions, and this article seems to contribute to this confusion. (It's like the difference between University of Massachussetts and MIT). Does anyone have any other sources for this part other than [1] ? -- Fuzheado | Talk 23:23, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the categorization modification that took place:
If new categories are to be added, then Category:Protoscience (which includes Category:String theory and Category:Quantum gravity) or Category:Pseudophysics could be considered. -- Ze miguel 21:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the assertion that the theses and articles were not intended as hoaxes. a hoax is meant as a joke. the Bogdanoffs' publications were not submitted as such, they were a means to an end, that is getting PH D's. If the theses and publications were indeed spurious (an opinion I tend to agree with on the basis of the caliber of some of the critics), the Bogdanoff case would more properly be qualified as a con. -- Svartalf 19:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
In response to a request from Glenzierfoot on 22:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC), I am unprotecting this article and talk page. Since I am not a party to this article in any way, I will keep track of it for a few weeks and will re-protect it if the problems start again. Hope things work out. Best,-- Alabamaboy 00:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
...this whole thing is. If I may jump in with some unasked for advice? Here's a tip: nobody -- NOBODY -- is gonna look at this article and say "Gee these Bogdanov brothers are the cat's pajamas! I mean, we are talking about some A-number-1 ace scientists here!" regardlass of what the B-Boys do. Nobody but a complete idiot, and idiots don't matter much. I mean, people can read between the lines. People can get the drift of somebody's case. So don't worry about it so much. It's not like the B-Boys are gonna get rehabilitated and rise to the Nobel Prize based on what's in this article. They are who they are. Chill y'all. My two cents. Herostratus 10:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
From Dissertation:
However, this article suggests that "mention honourable", when awarded by a university, is the lowest possible passing grade. One or the other is clearly wrong; I do not know which. If anyone would be so good as to explain this to me, I would be most grateful. Best regards, -- NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 06:37, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, but Ze Miguel comment in connection with the PHD mentions is not only approximate: it is false. The law of April 27, 2002 does not apply to the theses of Bogdanoff. The regulations which apply to the delivery of a doctorate depend only on the date on which the registration in thesis was made. In the case of the Bogdanoff brothers, it was in 1991. Therefore, the regulation that applies in their case is the law of 23 novembre 1988. Here is the law text ( http://www.andes.asso.fr/GUIDE/annexe/node11.php) :
"Toutefois, les dispositions de ces arrêtés restent applicables aux candidats inscrits en vue de l'obtention de l'un de ces diplômes et ayant choisi, conformément aux dispositions transitoires prévues par l'arrêté du 5 juillet 1984 relatif aux études doctorales. de poursuivre la préparation de leurs travaux et de les soutenir dans les conditions prévues par les textes antérieurement en vigueur."
In English: "However, the provisions of these decrees remain applicable to the candidates registered for obtaining one of these diplomas and having chosen, in accordance with the transitional provisions envisaged by the decree of 5 July 1984 relating to the doctoral studies to continue the preparation of their work and to support them under the conditions envisaged by the texts before in force."
It is clear. Grichka passed his thesis in 1999. Igor in 2002. They started their thesis in 1991, long before the "new doctorate" mentionned by Ze Miguel (27 april 2002). Therefore, as the law stipulates, the only legal text that applies to the Bogdanoff thesis is the text of July 5,1984 ( http://guilde.jeunes-chercheurs.org/Textes/Doct/A840705-2.html) :
"L'admission ou l'ajournement est prononcé après délibération du jury. L'admission peut donner lieu à l'attribution de l'une des mentions suivantes : passable, honorable ou très honorable."
In English: "the admission or the adjournment is pronounced after deliberation of the jury. The admission can induce the attribution of one of the following mentions: passable, honourable or very honourable."
I know well the circumstances in which Bogdanoff passed their theses at the University of Bourgogne. Taking into account their celebrity (and to avoid discussions), it was decided to allow a "discrete" passing grade to them (Honourable) and not at all "the lowest passing grade" (passable). Insofar as it was the text of 1984 which applied to the theses of Bogdanoff, the jury knew perfectly that the "Honourable" ranking was not the lowest one (which was indeed "passable"). Consequently what is written in this article is absolutely false and I will correctet it.
On January 10 / 2006, I sent an email to Nicholas Turnbull saying, in part : "I would like to correct with your help some critical errors or deformations without being suspected by some editors to rearrange the truth in our favour." Further in the mail, I presented some salient proofs regarding these errors and I was asking Nicholas to correct the article. Unfortunatly, Nicholas did not react to my message and I have to intervene myself on this page in order to modify the following point.
Here are some interesting things that we disclose here about the famous "CQG Official Statement" published here.
This "statement" was presented by Baez as an "official document" issued by CQG editorial board around november 1st 2002. In fact, as we wrote many times, it originally was merely an internal discussion which became "official" because it was presented and "seen" as such by many readers. Here are the proofs of what we claim.
First, here is a link towards an article of the bulletin of the "Physics-Astronomy-Mathematics division of SLA" http://www.sla.org/division/dpam/pam-bulletin/vol30/no3/physics.html
One finds, in reference n° 13 of the references quoted by the author :
http://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0211&L=pamnet#11
One can see the original and official text issued by Andrew Wray and H. Nicolaï of CGQ on November 11 2002, in response to the charges of hoax!!!
http://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211&L=pamnet&T=0&F=&S=&P=3647
As you can see, the so called "official statement" which circulated on SPR and elsewhere was only -as we said here some time ago- " a briefing note for CQG Editorial Board members, who were receiving enquiries from colleagues and the media. The "official" text that was clearly released in the public domain sounds quite different but was never known (because it was kept more or less secret by the californian physicists whose interest was to promote the "negative" version of Nov.1 instead.
Here is the integral version of November 11. As you can see, it reads very different from the previous version : http://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211&L=pamnet&T=0&F=&S=&P=3647
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:38:46 +0000 Reply-To: andrew.wray@iop.org Sender: "Archive of slapam-l (PAMnet)" <PAMNET@LISTSERV.ND.EDU> From: Andrew Wray <andrew.wray@iop.org> Subject: Classical and Quantum Gravity Comments: To: SLAPAM-L@lists.yale.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm writing on behalf of the Institute of Physics in response to a recent discussion on this list re the following paper: 'Topological field theory of the initial singularity of spacetime' by G Bogdanov and I Bogdanov, Class. Quantum Grav. 18 4341-4372 (2001) As you might expect, a number of our readers have contacted us about this and it has been widely discussed online. Our position is this: Classical and Quantum Gravity endeavours to publish original research of the highest calibre on gravitational physics. It is one of the highest standard journals in its field and makes continuous effort to maintain and improve the quality of research communication. In common with many journals, we consult among a worldwide pool of over 1,000 referees asking two independent experts to review each paper. A third referee is selected if the first two disagree. 45% of submitted articles are rejected and almost all accepted articles are revised before publication. The paper 'Topological field theory of the initial singularity of spacetime' by G Bogdanov and I Bogdanov made it through this review process and was therefore published in the normal way. At present, there are no plans to withdraw the article. Rather, the journal publishes refereed Comments and Replies by readers and authors as a means to comment on and correct mistakes in published material. We have passed this information on to the community and ask that if your colleagues enquire about this, you forward this e-mail on to them. Thank you for your help with this matter. Regards, Dr Andrew Wray Senior Publisher Classical and Quantum Gravity Institute of Physics Publishing Professor Hermann Nicolai Honorary Editor Classical and Quantum Gravity Albert Einstein Institute
It is clear that this version is almost the opposite of the "known" one. The text above protects CQG's referees, the quality of their work and the papers they allow to be published. This was a clear and legitimate reaction of the editorial board. Unfortunatly, since the community (represented, at that time, by Baez et al) seemed to be satisfied with the first "offensive" versione that circulated everywhere, Andrew Wray and Herman Nicolaï decided that the second version could as well sleep for ever in a forgotten place. This is exactly how an illigitimate "image" slowly invades some reality. This is exactly why our "Topological Field Theory" CQG paper became "an affair". All of the Wikipedian editors can check the veracity of what is presented here. Without violating any interdiction or being suspected of "vandalism", I will modify this point on the article and insert the legitimate version at the place of the non official one. I hope I will not be reverted because of this change that every honest editor could understand. In a more general way, I hold other proofs likely to correct other deformations or mistakes that I would like produce in the future (if I am allowed to do it, of course). Thank you for your attention. Igor
The reference to Sokal affair is wrong. The article states that the Sokal affair was to prove the shortcomings of peer-reviewing processes in theoretical physics, which is totally wrong. If I remember and understand correctly, the Sokal paper was poking fun at new liberal journals which publish any garbage without properly seeking advice or review from scientists; it's not poking fun at science or process of science itself. Can someone look into this? Temporary account 00:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm intrigued by the claim that the article has become "entangled with the external event", but not intrigued enough to read through the many archives here, and I didn't really see anything about it on the arbitration page.
(I'm assuming that "entangled" means more than merely that persons involved in the affair are editing the article; that's a commonplace. To me "entangled" suggests causality in the other direction; that is, that the article is somehow influencing ongoing events related to the Bogdanovs.)
So could we have a brief summary somewhere of this "entanglement"? -- Trovatore 23:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Why did you add one critic more against the Bogdanoff Brothers whereas you removed several sites rather positive for them ? Silasi 11:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I commented out the giant notice at the top of the article warning editors that they may be mistaken for sockpuppets. How long has the damn thing been up there? The Arbcom case closed about four months ago. Anyone who tries to edit the article will still see it in the edit box. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 18:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I know this article has been subjected to arbitration etc, anyway I want to give my opinion and purpose some changes. The article is about the Bogdanov Affair, it is not about the Bogdanov brothers. I am quite sure their papers where just an hoax, but still cannot understand the reasons for the following lines also receiving the same low passing grade of "honorable", one that is seldom given, as told to New York Times science reporter Dennis Overbye by Bogdanov Ph.D. advisor Dr. Daniel Sternheimer. In justifying the conferring of doctoral degrees to the Bogdanovs, Dr. Sternheimer told the Times, "These guys worked for 10 years without pay. They have the right to have their work recognized with a diploma, which is nothing much these days.
It seems to me this is afree attack against the brothers, more than an additional info about the Affair. I purpose to change it with (something like) ..."honorable", that is the lowest grade for passing the PhD examination... The current version sounds forced to me. gala.martin ( what?) 22:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Things like "Learn physics or don't interfer with facts.Wikibee is right.Galaxies were not "created" by space.Ask around you before reverting to a ridiculous sentence" make no sense, as far as I can say.
Simply put, soon after the beginning of the Universe, space was loaded with an enormous density of pure energy, which converted to matter - anti-matter, back to energy, and so on; hence the notion of "temperature" of the Universe (density of energy in space), the various "eras" of sub-aotmic particles which rythm the early instants of the Universe, and the puzzle about matter -- where is all the missing anti-matter gone ? So yes, you can say that space created matter, probably more that say that it did not.
Of course, I look forward to hearing what User:Alain r will say about this; I aknowledge that I hold a mere master in particle physics, while he is a specialist in cosmology. Rama 17:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The prior comparison of "This figure is extremely low when evaluated against the number of citations made to papers written by other physicists who have given critical evaluations of the Bogdanovs work." is not a proper comparison as it is highly misleading. The Boganovs are new to people who have been published, since 2002, they haven't had as much time to be cited as someone who did work in 1982, and has had time for their popularity and credibility to grow for 24 years, 20 years on the Boganovs. They probably are very uncited, but why not compare them to other graduates, first time published authors, who graduated in 2004. What is the average, etc?
I'm kinda surprised Rama freezes everyone who slightly diverges from his views of the article as a "sock P." of the brothers. I am not. And probably King Vegita is also not a sock P. Perhaps Rama should apply some physics training in order to understand correctly some edits. One thing to be a "pro" in sexuality drawings (User : Rama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rama/Sexuality_drawings) another one to be a good editor in physics. If you disagree you can always email me.
The article claims their papers were cited 3 times in seven papers, is that right? How can that be true? Zyxoas ( talk to me - I'll listen) 12:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
How old are they ? Have they really been TV presenters for a "few decades", which must be more than two ? -- Beardo 08:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The picture caption is very long. Is there the need for the detail about the big bang in this article? -- Robdurbar 18:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The following comes from the 1 November 2004 Lire, p. 107 No. 330, by Jean Audouze: [10]
I particularly like the characterization of the brothers as "two peacocks".
Oh, and this one is short and sweet. It comes from a review in Le Télégramme (8 October 2004), in which Samuel Uguen has some kind words for the Griffons la science educational festival. He starts by saying, "Le goût de la science doit s'acquérir très jeune avant que les chiffres, les formules ou les frères Bogdanov viennent pervertir tout cela." This translates as "The taste for science must be acquired very young, before figures, formulas or the Bogdanov brothers come to pervert it." Funny, funny stuff!
Anville 16:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I am curious: will the puppet theatre ever get tired of rewriting the CQG statement? The version we quote which they say can't be verified was, in fact, quoted by the New York Times, meaning that it's as verifiable as any damn thing in the Wikipedia. I also wonder which of these users are sockpuppets and which are meatpuppets:
Whew. Anville 22:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, and Sophie, who edited as User:213.237.21.6 and later as User:XAL and was accordingly zapped by the ArbCom, came back as User:213.237.21.242. Golly. Anville 23:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Anville 16:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Trying to track those thesis reports to their original lair is a real pain. The only website where anyone claimed they existed is this location at CERN, but those have been deleted, purportedly because they had been "doctored" by the Bogdanovs. CatharineV, one of the partisans banned by the ArbCom, has excerpts from these reports here, but, er. . . . WP:RS and all that.
Sigh. Exegesis always starts out so much fun and then decays into tedium. Anville 20:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The statement about Ciel et Espace getting sued was added by YBM, here. This edit summary implies that the French media have covered the legal dispute to some extent, but I haven't been able to find any specifics. Anville 19:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
While there's a todo list around, there are a couple of paragraphs I had trouble with, #3 and #4 of 'Media involvement'. Para-three contains various direct quotes that don't appear in the cited post, and has the word "interesting" was translated as "important" - is that wikt:important or fr:wikt:important? Para-four has "It's certainly possible that you have some new worthwhile results on quantum groups", was translated as "It is completely certain that you have obtained new worthwhile results on quantum groups", a nonsense English-English translation, when the cite (secondary report, not the book) provides French - in questions of translation accuracy it's surely manditory to provide the exact wording, in both languages. -- zippedmartin 08:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Ahem. To all the anon IPs/sockpuppets/meatpuppets complaining about the CQG e-mail, note that we don't get it from Baez's website, but from Greg Kuperberg via sci.physics.research. I note that none of them has complained about the referee reports for Classical and Quantum Gravity, the Czechoslovak Journal of Physics and the Chinese Journal of Physics which do come from Baez's website — hmmm, the plot thickens. Furthermore, each of these acts of sockpuppet theater remove thoroughly cited material from multiple mainstream, well-regarded news organizations. This is considered vandalism. Anville 19:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
It appears we have moved beyond the CQG-related sockpuppetry into a brave new world of théâtre de faux-nez! Now the issue is over "censored web sites". In my view, the External Links guideline would rule these out even if they weren't being pushed by sockpuppets, but that's a debate for a different day. In the meantime, here is the dramatis personae so far:
Be seeing you. Anville 18:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)