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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Body count was copied or moved into Vietnam War body count controversy with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The inclusion of Gen. Tommy Franks' quote in reference to the Iraq war is misleading and strips the quote of all its context. Even if the quote was "widely reported" by op-ed and feature writers in context of the Iraq war, the quote itself was in reference to the death toll in a specific bombing campaign in Afghanistan that occurred before the Iraq war started (see. e.g.: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/world/nation-war-casualties-us-military-has-no-count-iraqi-dead-fighting.html; http://concept.journals.villanova.edu/article/download/264/227). The inclusion of this quote in a section dedicated to the Iraq war, and couched in the passive "was widely reported," seems (in my non-Wiki-savvy viewpoint) entirely inappropriate and contrary to encyclopedic rigor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.248.242 ( talk) 15:27, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:32, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
Mztourist, A bicyclette, you're both using rollback too much, both of you in the last series of edits have removed valid additions to the article alongside potentially questionable new data. I've locked this page for a week; take your own advice and discuss things here. Both of you are guilty of edit warring. Let's talk and improve the article, rather than rollback all over the place.
Note also that there are (at least) two specific issues here that need to be separately teased out. First, there's ample evidence that post-action reports from U.S. ground forces in combat in SVN inflated numbers of enemy killed and wounded. That is at a specific, limited, tactical scale, repeated over a large number of incidents. There may be less well attributed problems with VC/PAVN reports in the same way (one regrets not being able to speak more languages to seek more sources).
Second, there's the overall casualty count where estimates up to thirty years later try and total overall losses for each side. This includes the U.S. (and VC/PAVN) tactical battle estimates after the individual fights, but also includes large numbers of estimates for actions where the two sides didn't physically meet: from the casualties aboard the ships in the
Tonkin Gulf incident, to all the bombing raid / artillery casualties, and problems with differing counting rules (when does a WIA become a DOW, later casualties from things like Agent Orange, etc.). My guess is that these two levels of estimating problems need to be dealt with separately, and the sections on overall
Casualties of the Vietnam War need to be coordinated with it.
Buckshot06
(talk)
08:21, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
The figure of 849,018 according to a nationwide survey of compensation claims by veterans and their families for the periods between 1955-1975 is directly sourced from Hanoi's ministry, and should reflect the more accurate number than an AP article written in 1995, citing it. The AP article uses a rounded figure, of the upper 1.1 million which is used to assess all casualties across 1949 to 1990,and ought to be considered a secondary source, NOT a primary source. You can run this across a translator, but these numbers are broke down into the "resistance war against France - 191,605 which is accepted on
First Indochina War page, and the 105,627 which is the
Third Indochina War phase.
- Theo số liệu thống kê, toàn quốc có: 1.146.250 liệt sĩ, trong đó:
+ Liệt sĩ hy sinh trong kháng chiến chống Pháp: 191.605 liệt sĩ.
+ Liệt sĩ hy sinh trong kháng chiến chống Mỹ: 849.018 liệt sĩ.
+ Liệt sĩ hy sinh trong chiến trang bảo vệ Tổ quốc: 105.627 liệt sĩ.
[1]
Directly citing Mark Woodruff who wrote Unheralded Victory, should DEFINETLY BE considered POV since he has a pretty clear argument he makes, that the US won the war and is part of the controversial "revisionist branch". I don't see why it ought to be kept, and yet my part which is said directly by Chuck hagel, NOT an author or historian but a secretary of defense validating the gross-inflation did occur ought to be removed.
Buckshot06 Your points on this?
A bicyclette (
talk)
11:54, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
References
As soon as User:Buckshot06's page block expires User:A bicyclette is in there editing the page to "Removed bad sources (AP Articles), removed NPOV narratives." Inserting his "Vietnamese Government" document despite this being under discussion here: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Vietnamese Government document on Vietnam War casualties, deleting the 1995 AP story with no reasons given other than his POV that it is an incorrect translation of his "Vietnamese Government" document despite this apparently being issued 20 years later, deleting Mark Woodruff despite being told he has to take it to WP:RSN here: User talk:A bicyclette#If you've got a problem with Woodruff, take it to WP:RSN. Mztourist ( talk) 04:41, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
The AP Source is already described as generally unreliable as a figure. A bicyclette ( talk) 07:06, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
This article is about a piece of slang, is used as a WP:COATRACK, and is full of WP:OR [ [2]]. E Eng 12:31, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Discuss how he introduced this as a measure/term in the DOD, during the Vietnam War, and the consequences. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough
01:49, 29 June 2020 (UTC).
What’s your body count 2.28.80.44 ( talk) 23:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Killing people for no reason 216.49.31.72 ( talk) 02:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Body count was copied or moved into Vietnam War body count controversy with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The inclusion of Gen. Tommy Franks' quote in reference to the Iraq war is misleading and strips the quote of all its context. Even if the quote was "widely reported" by op-ed and feature writers in context of the Iraq war, the quote itself was in reference to the death toll in a specific bombing campaign in Afghanistan that occurred before the Iraq war started (see. e.g.: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/world/nation-war-casualties-us-military-has-no-count-iraqi-dead-fighting.html; http://concept.journals.villanova.edu/article/download/264/227). The inclusion of this quote in a section dedicated to the Iraq war, and couched in the passive "was widely reported," seems (in my non-Wiki-savvy viewpoint) entirely inappropriate and contrary to encyclopedic rigor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.248.242 ( talk) 15:27, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Body count. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
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).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:32, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
Mztourist, A bicyclette, you're both using rollback too much, both of you in the last series of edits have removed valid additions to the article alongside potentially questionable new data. I've locked this page for a week; take your own advice and discuss things here. Both of you are guilty of edit warring. Let's talk and improve the article, rather than rollback all over the place.
Note also that there are (at least) two specific issues here that need to be separately teased out. First, there's ample evidence that post-action reports from U.S. ground forces in combat in SVN inflated numbers of enemy killed and wounded. That is at a specific, limited, tactical scale, repeated over a large number of incidents. There may be less well attributed problems with VC/PAVN reports in the same way (one regrets not being able to speak more languages to seek more sources).
Second, there's the overall casualty count where estimates up to thirty years later try and total overall losses for each side. This includes the U.S. (and VC/PAVN) tactical battle estimates after the individual fights, but also includes large numbers of estimates for actions where the two sides didn't physically meet: from the casualties aboard the ships in the
Tonkin Gulf incident, to all the bombing raid / artillery casualties, and problems with differing counting rules (when does a WIA become a DOW, later casualties from things like Agent Orange, etc.). My guess is that these two levels of estimating problems need to be dealt with separately, and the sections on overall
Casualties of the Vietnam War need to be coordinated with it.
Buckshot06
(talk)
08:21, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
The figure of 849,018 according to a nationwide survey of compensation claims by veterans and their families for the periods between 1955-1975 is directly sourced from Hanoi's ministry, and should reflect the more accurate number than an AP article written in 1995, citing it. The AP article uses a rounded figure, of the upper 1.1 million which is used to assess all casualties across 1949 to 1990,and ought to be considered a secondary source, NOT a primary source. You can run this across a translator, but these numbers are broke down into the "resistance war against France - 191,605 which is accepted on
First Indochina War page, and the 105,627 which is the
Third Indochina War phase.
- Theo số liệu thống kê, toàn quốc có: 1.146.250 liệt sĩ, trong đó:
+ Liệt sĩ hy sinh trong kháng chiến chống Pháp: 191.605 liệt sĩ.
+ Liệt sĩ hy sinh trong kháng chiến chống Mỹ: 849.018 liệt sĩ.
+ Liệt sĩ hy sinh trong chiến trang bảo vệ Tổ quốc: 105.627 liệt sĩ.
[1]
Directly citing Mark Woodruff who wrote Unheralded Victory, should DEFINETLY BE considered POV since he has a pretty clear argument he makes, that the US won the war and is part of the controversial "revisionist branch". I don't see why it ought to be kept, and yet my part which is said directly by Chuck hagel, NOT an author or historian but a secretary of defense validating the gross-inflation did occur ought to be removed.
Buckshot06 Your points on this?
A bicyclette (
talk)
11:54, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
References
As soon as User:Buckshot06's page block expires User:A bicyclette is in there editing the page to "Removed bad sources (AP Articles), removed NPOV narratives." Inserting his "Vietnamese Government" document despite this being under discussion here: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Vietnamese Government document on Vietnam War casualties, deleting the 1995 AP story with no reasons given other than his POV that it is an incorrect translation of his "Vietnamese Government" document despite this apparently being issued 20 years later, deleting Mark Woodruff despite being told he has to take it to WP:RSN here: User talk:A bicyclette#If you've got a problem with Woodruff, take it to WP:RSN. Mztourist ( talk) 04:41, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
The AP Source is already described as generally unreliable as a figure. A bicyclette ( talk) 07:06, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
This article is about a piece of slang, is used as a WP:COATRACK, and is full of WP:OR [ [2]]. E Eng 12:31, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Discuss how he introduced this as a measure/term in the DOD, during the Vietnam War, and the consequences. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough
01:49, 29 June 2020 (UTC).
What’s your body count 2.28.80.44 ( talk) 23:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Killing people for no reason 216.49.31.72 ( talk) 02:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)