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I found articles at both BMIbaby and BMI Baby, so I merged the content here. This was the older article. The www.bmibaby.com site isn't responding, so I can't see what capitalisation is most appropriate.-- gadfium 05:53, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Is bmi regional the same as this? If so, then they should be merged. -- Bovineone 04:04, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Should Jersey be put on the International Destination list? It is registered as "International" in Manchester Airport where bmibaby fly from?
Is it really necessary to flag up rumours? Why not stick that kind of stuff on Flyertalk or PPrune and concentrate here on facts.
Should we include how the name is pronounced? I've always said bee-emm-eye-baby and I _think_ that's how I've heard it in airport and on-board announcements but I did catch a radio travel report the other day where the reader said be-my-baby which seems reasonable and the sort of thing the PR hacks would love. -- Cavrdg 10:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Recent edits have added categories for BMIbaby being a Star Alliance member. Up to now Bmibaby has not been a member of the alliance, and the statement that just because it co-operates with the bmi Diamond Club that makes it a member of the alliance does not sound right. Can anybody cite anything that show it as proper member of the Star Alliance please. MilborneOne 19:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. It is recommended that the article name be left at Bmibaby by removing {{lowercase}} from both the article and the talk page, although within the article "bmibaby" may be used throughout. It is a violation of WP:MOSTM to use all lowercase article names. However, it is noted that editor preference is to break this rule, and hopefully this lack of clarity will not lead to an edit war. If it does, since no actual page move is involved, it is recommended that it be resolved through an RFC or mediation. 199.125.109.19 ( talk) 05:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I moved the article back under the name "bmibaby" and reverted the redirect changes to match this, since the article consistently uses "bmibaby" as the name of the airline, which is also what the airline itself uses (see its official website). I hope this is not considered controversial, just housekeeping. -- Mareklug talk 04:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
DISPLAYTITLE|bmibaby}}
on the page and it will correct the article's title within the page— make sure to get consensus to do so, however. --
slakr\
talk /
07:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)I propose the article be moved back to the name "bmibaby". Yes it is a name, but look at the bmibaby website the company clearly says 'bmibaby' now 'Bmibaby' so the article name should be lowercase no capitals. Zaps93 ( talk) 23:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the move request because the article had the lowercase tag added, you cant actually move it for technical reasons Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(technical_restrictions)#Lower_case_first_letter. MilborneOne ( talk) 19:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry I was not after more opinions, the comments above supported a move and as far as wikipedia is concerned that has taken place so this discussion has concluded. If you want to change the name to something else other than bmibaby then you really need to start a new topic. Thanks. MilborneOne ( talk) 19:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
The template “lowercase” was primarily designed for use with mathematical constants (eg e (mathematical constant)) and not to allow us to use the stylistic preferences of trademark owners. For this reason, bmibaby should be correctly titled Bmibaby. This is supported by WP:MOSTM, which states:
Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, regardless of the preference of trademark owners.
and also by Wikipedia:Name#Use_standard_English_for_titles_even_if_trademarks_encourage_otherwise, which states:
Follow standard English text formatting for article names that are trademarks. Items in full or partial uppercase…should have standard capitalization
The stylistic rendering of bmibaby as all lowercase can be dealt with in the opening line if required. As an encyclopedia, wikipedia is more concerned with the use of correct English, rather than pandering to the stylistic preferences of trademark owners. As for the common name argument, this is for instances where the common name may be different to the official name, and is to ensure the article is located at the most logical location (eg. Bill Clinton over William Jefferson Clinton). Bmibaby and bmibaby are the same search term, and thus common name does not apply. We use correct capitalization, and do not alter that for anyone. That is the point to remember. Nouse4aname ( talk) 20:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Not that this really matters, but please see links below for evidence of common usage of Bmibaby (and also BMI, not bmi and BMI Regional not bmi regional):
Here is evidence that even BMIBaby is correct
The fact that some outlets use bmibaby and others use Bmibaby while yet others use BMIBaby is largely irrelevant. It does however show that there is no consistent use of one particular formatting, and thus no one method can be overwhelmingly declared to be the common name. For this reason wikipedia has its own house rules for capitalisation, which have been clearly stated above. Company names are capitalised regardless of the preferences of the trademark owner. Why this is so hard to understand, I do not know. There are countless examples of these rules being implemented in wikipedia (see Adidas, Craigslist, EasyJet, First Direct etc]]). I trust that this can finally be the end of this discussion, given the support presented for the consistent capitalisation. Nouse4aname ( talk) 09:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Additionally, the common name ( WP:COMMONNAME) argument is being quoted to support the use of bmibaby over Bmibaby. First of all, there is insufficient evidence to suggest that the use of lowercase lettering is by any means the common name, with all versions used throughout various reliable sources. Furthermore, it would seem that even if WP:COMMONNAME supported bmibaby, this would be in direct opposition to the policy of Wikipedia:Name#Use_standard_English_for_titles_even_if_trademarks_encourage_otherwise. So, with two policies apparently contradicting one another, which is correct? Well, reading the wording of WP:COMMONNAME shows that
Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things...
Now the important part here is the first part of the sentence "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication". Now clearly the policy here gives a different indication as to what the name should be, and thus COMMONNAME directs us to follow correct English capitalisation rules. Besides which, this does not matter as there is insufficient evidence to suggest that bmibaby is any more a common name that Bmibaby. This guideline primarily exists for where there are two different possible search terms (eg Bill Clinton vs William Jefferson Clinton) and explains which of the two search terms the article should be located at. Nouse4aname ( talk) 10:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
This therefor shows that bmibaby is relevant, bmi is ok, and bmi Regional. Zaps93 ( talk) 19:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
No. eBay and iPod are given as two named and explicit exceptions to the guideline WP:MOSTM and the naming policy Wikipedia:Name#Use_standard_English_for_titles_even_if_trademarks_encourage_otherwise. Everything else is covered by these guidelines and policies. Nouse4aname ( talk) 20:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
OK, so there comes a time when one side must admit defeat, and I feel that time is now. No compelling evidence has been presented to support the use of bmi over BMI, bmibaby over Bmibaby or bmi regional over BMI regional. Wikipedia policy and guideline is quite clear on the matter however, and supports the full capitalisation of these names as both article titles and throughout the body of text. The fact that other articles incorrectly use the lowercase template is irrelevant, and they will be corrected. eBay and iPod are explicit exceptions to the rule and do not support the argument for lowercase as explained ad nauseum above. I will wait a day or so longer, but then I am going to restore the pages to the capitalised versions and expect not to be reverted. Regards Nouse4aname ( talk) 09:45, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The TIME and ROLEX appoint doesn't apply here. It's a differnt style and noone is implying that the company's name is BMIBABY. Welshleprechaun ( talk) 19:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The policy prevents us from improving Wikipedia because it wants us to use an incorrect style. The company decides its name, not Wikipedia. Welshleprechaun ( talk) 19:25, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Could all users please simply indicate their preference taking into account the above points raised. We aim to close this argument and bring about a decision. Please sign under the following heading with your simple reason - please do not debate under this section (All previous participants notified of this poll survey. —
AjaxSmack
19:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)):
I don't mean to disregard Alex's vision for this section to be a streamlined space, but I think it's rather striking that every single editor who supports all-lowercase is invoking IAR, and not only invoking it, they seem to be misinterpreting it as some kind of directive that rules MUST be ignored at all times. The comment that seems to suggest that "turning Wikipedia into an encyclopedia" is a bad thing also troubles me greatly, considering that this IS an encyclopedia and that editors should strive to make it the best possible encyclopedia it can be. As I said above about "official name" arguments, if we are to privilege what the company wants over what independent sources do and what serves our readers best, then we need to reject reliable independent sources and only use press releases, as they are "official information." Croctotheface ( talk) 20:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Guys, seems to be a lot of wand waving and policy-wonking... For the parent airline there is a good argument that BMI should be used because it's fairly clear that the lowercase bmi is a branding exercise. Likewise for bmi Regional. However bmibaby has never been know as anything else, it has never had the BMI capitalised in anyway. The company name is "bmibaby" and I don't think it is refered to as BMIBaby anywhere. By using BMIBaby a selection of guidelines would be being put ahead of common usage - and isn't the overriding point of our naming guidelines to reflect common names? / wangi ( talk) 23:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The above arguments are all interesting but I'm still waiting to see if anyone can tell me why WP:IAR applies to this article but not others that mentioned in this section of WP:MOSTM such as Adidas (adidas), or Craigslist (craigslist) or BMI (bmi) itself. Well? — AjaxSmack 02:44, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
File:Adidas Logo.svg
File:BMI logo.svg
I do not care what you name the page; however, once again, you cannot move the page to "bmibaby." It is impossible to do from a technical standpoint. You can move the page to
BMIBaby, and you can make the page appear as "bmibaby" by placing {{
lowercase}}
on the page while it is named
Bmibaby it if there is consensus for it; however, you cannot actually move the page to "bmibaby." Article records in the database must always begin with a capital letter.
Please see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(technical_restrictions)#Lower_case_first_letter for more information.
-- slakr\ talk / 03:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I have requested a third opinion. Please do not argue in this section until an outside editor has commented on the situation. Welshleprechaun ( talk) 01:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Sum up: Dispute on whether to rename as bmibaby or BMIBbaby. Main arguement for BMIBaby is that as B-M-I are pronounced as seperate letters, it should be reflected. Main argument for bmibaby is that's how the airline itself is named [7].
There are several sentences in the article that start with "bmibaby". It should be noted that this is not recommended. It is recommended that each such sentence be re-arranged to start with an upper case letter. See the example at WP:MOSTM. 199.125.109.19 ( talk) 06:41, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
{{
lowercase}}
added at the top to allow it to look as such. Best Regards,
Zaps93 (
talk)
10:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Um, read the closing comments. The recommendation was to leave it at Bmibaby but to use bmibaby throughout the article (the only other option suggested was to move to BMIBaby). WP:IAR is not a license to ignore every rule, but more like if you show up at the airport and there is a big zigzag roped off place for a queue, but no one in it, you don't have to zigzag but can just go straight to the counter. There was no consensus, and there was significant and well reasoned opposition to using {{ lowercase}}. I would recommend trying it without {{ lowercase}}. 199.125.109.126 ( talk) 01:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
The fact is that
Wikipedia:Name#Use_standard_English_for_titles_even_if_trademarks_encourage_otherwise directs us to use the capitalised version of the name for the article title. This is wikipedia policy, to which
WP:IAR does not apply - we cannot simply ignore policy when we feel like it. As for the use throughout the article, "editor preference" has no impact on this.
WP:MOSTM is quite clear as to how a trademark that is rendered with no capital letters should be presented "
Trademarks rendered without any capitals are always capitalized". Now for those of you trying to invoke
WP:IAR, you cannot just say, we can ignore all rules so we should. You must provide valid reasoning why we should ignore community consensus in this situation, whereas apply it in other situations exactly like this, for example
Adidas,
Craigslist,
First Direct and even another airline
Air Europe. Counting votes for and against a particular style, particularly when the numbers are so close (8 to 5 is hardly a majority), means nothing. "
Wikipedia does not base its decisions on the number of people who show up and vote; we work on a system of good reasons". The fact that the company style their logo in lowercase is dealt with by stating this in the opening sentence and showing the logo in the infobox. From thereon in, the name should be capitalised under correct English. The assertion that the CAA use bmibaby, so we should too is nonsense. They are inconsistent with their usage of the styling (see these search results
[8]). Different outlets have different house rules for formatting such names. Wikipedia's house rule is to capitalise the name.
WP:IAR cannot be applied just because you disagree. You must explain how applying these well-discussed and agreed upon policies and guidelines is detrimental to the encyclopedia, and thus how ignoring these rules will improve the encyclopedia.
Nouse4aname (
talk)
11:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I am also a little concerned with User:Joey_Boeing_777 and User:Zaps93. The overlap in these editors contibutions is rather intriguing. Both are Welsh. Both primarily edit airline related articles. Joey_Boeing's last edit (prior to contributing to the above discussion) was Feb 14 2009 [9]. Zaps93 registered on this same date [10]. Now I am making no accusations, but these coincidences concern me a little, given both editor's participation in the "vote" above. Nouse4aname ( talk) 11:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
To attempt to summarise the arguments so far, I am going to arrange them in list format here. Please don't add discussion in between points on the list! Nouse4aname ( talk) 12:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
For God's sake, I thought we came to a sensible decision. No rename but use {{ lowercase}}. Can't we just leave it? It wasn't my preferred option but it's a good compromise. Welshleprechaun ( talk) 12:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Um, read the closing comments. The recommendation was to leave it at Bmibaby but to use bmibaby throughout the article (the only other option suggested was to move to BMIBaby). WP:IAR is not a license to ignore every rule, but more like if you show up at the airport and there is a big zigzag roped off place for a queue, but no one in it, you don't have to zigzag but can just go straight to the counter. There was no consensus, and there was significant and well reasoned opposition to using {{ lowercase}}. I would recommend trying it without {{ lowercase}}. 199.125.109.126 ( talk) 01:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
You can't rename the page to include a lowercase initial letter, that's why the lowercase template could be used. However the suggestion was that the article title should remain at Bmibaby (no lowercase templated) but use lowercase in the main body. This however was no formal closure and the use of bmibaby in the article is still up for debate. Nouse4aname ( talk) 12:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Listen, you can do whatever you want. The point is just don't edit war over it, but the recommendation is the opposite, use Bmibaby for the article title and use bmibaby throughout the article, just being careful not to start any sentences with it. Frankly you are going to get a lot less complaints that way. 199.125.109.126 ( talk) 14:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
March 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I found articles at both BMIbaby and BMI Baby, so I merged the content here. This was the older article. The www.bmibaby.com site isn't responding, so I can't see what capitalisation is most appropriate.-- gadfium 05:53, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Is bmi regional the same as this? If so, then they should be merged. -- Bovineone 04:04, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Should Jersey be put on the International Destination list? It is registered as "International" in Manchester Airport where bmibaby fly from?
Is it really necessary to flag up rumours? Why not stick that kind of stuff on Flyertalk or PPrune and concentrate here on facts.
Should we include how the name is pronounced? I've always said bee-emm-eye-baby and I _think_ that's how I've heard it in airport and on-board announcements but I did catch a radio travel report the other day where the reader said be-my-baby which seems reasonable and the sort of thing the PR hacks would love. -- Cavrdg 10:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Recent edits have added categories for BMIbaby being a Star Alliance member. Up to now Bmibaby has not been a member of the alliance, and the statement that just because it co-operates with the bmi Diamond Club that makes it a member of the alliance does not sound right. Can anybody cite anything that show it as proper member of the Star Alliance please. MilborneOne 19:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. It is recommended that the article name be left at Bmibaby by removing {{lowercase}} from both the article and the talk page, although within the article "bmibaby" may be used throughout. It is a violation of WP:MOSTM to use all lowercase article names. However, it is noted that editor preference is to break this rule, and hopefully this lack of clarity will not lead to an edit war. If it does, since no actual page move is involved, it is recommended that it be resolved through an RFC or mediation. 199.125.109.19 ( talk) 05:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I moved the article back under the name "bmibaby" and reverted the redirect changes to match this, since the article consistently uses "bmibaby" as the name of the airline, which is also what the airline itself uses (see its official website). I hope this is not considered controversial, just housekeeping. -- Mareklug talk 04:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
DISPLAYTITLE|bmibaby}}
on the page and it will correct the article's title within the page— make sure to get consensus to do so, however. --
slakr\
talk /
07:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)I propose the article be moved back to the name "bmibaby". Yes it is a name, but look at the bmibaby website the company clearly says 'bmibaby' now 'Bmibaby' so the article name should be lowercase no capitals. Zaps93 ( talk) 23:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the move request because the article had the lowercase tag added, you cant actually move it for technical reasons Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(technical_restrictions)#Lower_case_first_letter. MilborneOne ( talk) 19:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry I was not after more opinions, the comments above supported a move and as far as wikipedia is concerned that has taken place so this discussion has concluded. If you want to change the name to something else other than bmibaby then you really need to start a new topic. Thanks. MilborneOne ( talk) 19:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
The template “lowercase” was primarily designed for use with mathematical constants (eg e (mathematical constant)) and not to allow us to use the stylistic preferences of trademark owners. For this reason, bmibaby should be correctly titled Bmibaby. This is supported by WP:MOSTM, which states:
Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, regardless of the preference of trademark owners.
and also by Wikipedia:Name#Use_standard_English_for_titles_even_if_trademarks_encourage_otherwise, which states:
Follow standard English text formatting for article names that are trademarks. Items in full or partial uppercase…should have standard capitalization
The stylistic rendering of bmibaby as all lowercase can be dealt with in the opening line if required. As an encyclopedia, wikipedia is more concerned with the use of correct English, rather than pandering to the stylistic preferences of trademark owners. As for the common name argument, this is for instances where the common name may be different to the official name, and is to ensure the article is located at the most logical location (eg. Bill Clinton over William Jefferson Clinton). Bmibaby and bmibaby are the same search term, and thus common name does not apply. We use correct capitalization, and do not alter that for anyone. That is the point to remember. Nouse4aname ( talk) 20:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Not that this really matters, but please see links below for evidence of common usage of Bmibaby (and also BMI, not bmi and BMI Regional not bmi regional):
Here is evidence that even BMIBaby is correct
The fact that some outlets use bmibaby and others use Bmibaby while yet others use BMIBaby is largely irrelevant. It does however show that there is no consistent use of one particular formatting, and thus no one method can be overwhelmingly declared to be the common name. For this reason wikipedia has its own house rules for capitalisation, which have been clearly stated above. Company names are capitalised regardless of the preferences of the trademark owner. Why this is so hard to understand, I do not know. There are countless examples of these rules being implemented in wikipedia (see Adidas, Craigslist, EasyJet, First Direct etc]]). I trust that this can finally be the end of this discussion, given the support presented for the consistent capitalisation. Nouse4aname ( talk) 09:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Additionally, the common name ( WP:COMMONNAME) argument is being quoted to support the use of bmibaby over Bmibaby. First of all, there is insufficient evidence to suggest that the use of lowercase lettering is by any means the common name, with all versions used throughout various reliable sources. Furthermore, it would seem that even if WP:COMMONNAME supported bmibaby, this would be in direct opposition to the policy of Wikipedia:Name#Use_standard_English_for_titles_even_if_trademarks_encourage_otherwise. So, with two policies apparently contradicting one another, which is correct? Well, reading the wording of WP:COMMONNAME shows that
Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things...
Now the important part here is the first part of the sentence "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication". Now clearly the policy here gives a different indication as to what the name should be, and thus COMMONNAME directs us to follow correct English capitalisation rules. Besides which, this does not matter as there is insufficient evidence to suggest that bmibaby is any more a common name that Bmibaby. This guideline primarily exists for where there are two different possible search terms (eg Bill Clinton vs William Jefferson Clinton) and explains which of the two search terms the article should be located at. Nouse4aname ( talk) 10:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
This therefor shows that bmibaby is relevant, bmi is ok, and bmi Regional. Zaps93 ( talk) 19:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
No. eBay and iPod are given as two named and explicit exceptions to the guideline WP:MOSTM and the naming policy Wikipedia:Name#Use_standard_English_for_titles_even_if_trademarks_encourage_otherwise. Everything else is covered by these guidelines and policies. Nouse4aname ( talk) 20:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
OK, so there comes a time when one side must admit defeat, and I feel that time is now. No compelling evidence has been presented to support the use of bmi over BMI, bmibaby over Bmibaby or bmi regional over BMI regional. Wikipedia policy and guideline is quite clear on the matter however, and supports the full capitalisation of these names as both article titles and throughout the body of text. The fact that other articles incorrectly use the lowercase template is irrelevant, and they will be corrected. eBay and iPod are explicit exceptions to the rule and do not support the argument for lowercase as explained ad nauseum above. I will wait a day or so longer, but then I am going to restore the pages to the capitalised versions and expect not to be reverted. Regards Nouse4aname ( talk) 09:45, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The TIME and ROLEX appoint doesn't apply here. It's a differnt style and noone is implying that the company's name is BMIBABY. Welshleprechaun ( talk) 19:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The policy prevents us from improving Wikipedia because it wants us to use an incorrect style. The company decides its name, not Wikipedia. Welshleprechaun ( talk) 19:25, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Could all users please simply indicate their preference taking into account the above points raised. We aim to close this argument and bring about a decision. Please sign under the following heading with your simple reason - please do not debate under this section (All previous participants notified of this poll survey. —
AjaxSmack
19:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)):
I don't mean to disregard Alex's vision for this section to be a streamlined space, but I think it's rather striking that every single editor who supports all-lowercase is invoking IAR, and not only invoking it, they seem to be misinterpreting it as some kind of directive that rules MUST be ignored at all times. The comment that seems to suggest that "turning Wikipedia into an encyclopedia" is a bad thing also troubles me greatly, considering that this IS an encyclopedia and that editors should strive to make it the best possible encyclopedia it can be. As I said above about "official name" arguments, if we are to privilege what the company wants over what independent sources do and what serves our readers best, then we need to reject reliable independent sources and only use press releases, as they are "official information." Croctotheface ( talk) 20:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Guys, seems to be a lot of wand waving and policy-wonking... For the parent airline there is a good argument that BMI should be used because it's fairly clear that the lowercase bmi is a branding exercise. Likewise for bmi Regional. However bmibaby has never been know as anything else, it has never had the BMI capitalised in anyway. The company name is "bmibaby" and I don't think it is refered to as BMIBaby anywhere. By using BMIBaby a selection of guidelines would be being put ahead of common usage - and isn't the overriding point of our naming guidelines to reflect common names? / wangi ( talk) 23:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The above arguments are all interesting but I'm still waiting to see if anyone can tell me why WP:IAR applies to this article but not others that mentioned in this section of WP:MOSTM such as Adidas (adidas), or Craigslist (craigslist) or BMI (bmi) itself. Well? — AjaxSmack 02:44, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
File:Adidas Logo.svg
File:BMI logo.svg
I do not care what you name the page; however, once again, you cannot move the page to "bmibaby." It is impossible to do from a technical standpoint. You can move the page to
BMIBaby, and you can make the page appear as "bmibaby" by placing {{
lowercase}}
on the page while it is named
Bmibaby it if there is consensus for it; however, you cannot actually move the page to "bmibaby." Article records in the database must always begin with a capital letter.
Please see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(technical_restrictions)#Lower_case_first_letter for more information.
-- slakr\ talk / 03:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I have requested a third opinion. Please do not argue in this section until an outside editor has commented on the situation. Welshleprechaun ( talk) 01:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Sum up: Dispute on whether to rename as bmibaby or BMIBbaby. Main arguement for BMIBaby is that as B-M-I are pronounced as seperate letters, it should be reflected. Main argument for bmibaby is that's how the airline itself is named [7].
There are several sentences in the article that start with "bmibaby". It should be noted that this is not recommended. It is recommended that each such sentence be re-arranged to start with an upper case letter. See the example at WP:MOSTM. 199.125.109.19 ( talk) 06:41, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
{{
lowercase}}
added at the top to allow it to look as such. Best Regards,
Zaps93 (
talk)
10:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Um, read the closing comments. The recommendation was to leave it at Bmibaby but to use bmibaby throughout the article (the only other option suggested was to move to BMIBaby). WP:IAR is not a license to ignore every rule, but more like if you show up at the airport and there is a big zigzag roped off place for a queue, but no one in it, you don't have to zigzag but can just go straight to the counter. There was no consensus, and there was significant and well reasoned opposition to using {{ lowercase}}. I would recommend trying it without {{ lowercase}}. 199.125.109.126 ( talk) 01:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
The fact is that
Wikipedia:Name#Use_standard_English_for_titles_even_if_trademarks_encourage_otherwise directs us to use the capitalised version of the name for the article title. This is wikipedia policy, to which
WP:IAR does not apply - we cannot simply ignore policy when we feel like it. As for the use throughout the article, "editor preference" has no impact on this.
WP:MOSTM is quite clear as to how a trademark that is rendered with no capital letters should be presented "
Trademarks rendered without any capitals are always capitalized". Now for those of you trying to invoke
WP:IAR, you cannot just say, we can ignore all rules so we should. You must provide valid reasoning why we should ignore community consensus in this situation, whereas apply it in other situations exactly like this, for example
Adidas,
Craigslist,
First Direct and even another airline
Air Europe. Counting votes for and against a particular style, particularly when the numbers are so close (8 to 5 is hardly a majority), means nothing. "
Wikipedia does not base its decisions on the number of people who show up and vote; we work on a system of good reasons". The fact that the company style their logo in lowercase is dealt with by stating this in the opening sentence and showing the logo in the infobox. From thereon in, the name should be capitalised under correct English. The assertion that the CAA use bmibaby, so we should too is nonsense. They are inconsistent with their usage of the styling (see these search results
[8]). Different outlets have different house rules for formatting such names. Wikipedia's house rule is to capitalise the name.
WP:IAR cannot be applied just because you disagree. You must explain how applying these well-discussed and agreed upon policies and guidelines is detrimental to the encyclopedia, and thus how ignoring these rules will improve the encyclopedia.
Nouse4aname (
talk)
11:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I am also a little concerned with User:Joey_Boeing_777 and User:Zaps93. The overlap in these editors contibutions is rather intriguing. Both are Welsh. Both primarily edit airline related articles. Joey_Boeing's last edit (prior to contributing to the above discussion) was Feb 14 2009 [9]. Zaps93 registered on this same date [10]. Now I am making no accusations, but these coincidences concern me a little, given both editor's participation in the "vote" above. Nouse4aname ( talk) 11:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
To attempt to summarise the arguments so far, I am going to arrange them in list format here. Please don't add discussion in between points on the list! Nouse4aname ( talk) 12:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
For God's sake, I thought we came to a sensible decision. No rename but use {{ lowercase}}. Can't we just leave it? It wasn't my preferred option but it's a good compromise. Welshleprechaun ( talk) 12:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Um, read the closing comments. The recommendation was to leave it at Bmibaby but to use bmibaby throughout the article (the only other option suggested was to move to BMIBaby). WP:IAR is not a license to ignore every rule, but more like if you show up at the airport and there is a big zigzag roped off place for a queue, but no one in it, you don't have to zigzag but can just go straight to the counter. There was no consensus, and there was significant and well reasoned opposition to using {{ lowercase}}. I would recommend trying it without {{ lowercase}}. 199.125.109.126 ( talk) 01:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
You can't rename the page to include a lowercase initial letter, that's why the lowercase template could be used. However the suggestion was that the article title should remain at Bmibaby (no lowercase templated) but use lowercase in the main body. This however was no formal closure and the use of bmibaby in the article is still up for debate. Nouse4aname ( talk) 12:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Listen, you can do whatever you want. The point is just don't edit war over it, but the recommendation is the opposite, use Bmibaby for the article title and use bmibaby throughout the article, just being careful not to start any sentences with it. Frankly you are going to get a lot less complaints that way. 199.125.109.126 ( talk) 14:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
March 2009 (UTC)
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