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As interesting and thorough as this article is, much of it seems to be original analysis and speculation by fans who come to their own conclusions based on evidence given by the books and JK Rowling. Although I have nothing personally against this, Wikipedia needs to be based off of reliable secondary (and not primary) sources. Which means, no original research.
In addition, I don't think that talk about genetics is approriate at all in this article, as it was demonstrated how, in the world defined by Rowling, the laws of genetics don't exactly work as they should. And we're bringing in terms that should be deemed irrelevant to the subject, and talk about genetics is obviously original research. However, if you ask me, magic ability could probably be linked to "magic energies" present in the cells themselves, or maybe mitochrondria, which have their own DNA and exist as part of the cell.
Anyways.... alot of this stuff has got to go, i think... :( Blueaster 23:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
{{ examplefarm}} {{ in-universe}} {{ Synthesis}} {{ Missing information}}
It appears at this point that the article will be kept, so I will report some of the issues raised:
The reason that this appears to be a "fan article" is because it reads like one. It simply describes a concept used throughout the series, making no reference, that I can find at least, to the literaty significance of said concept. It gives a ton of facts about the stories (way too many) without delving into the symbolism behind the concept. It just doesn't "look" encyclopedic. It looks like the kind of thing I would expect to find on a Harry Potter fansite, not in an encyclopedia. As it stands, this isn't an article about a theme but about a simple idea used in the books.
The article needs a serious reduction in current content; there are far too many examples, making it seem like an attempt at a research paper and not an encyclopedia article. While articles shold be detailed, this one reads like an example farm.
Also, it has a serious lack of secondary sources, which is one of the main reasoms it was nominated for deletion. As the main source for this seems to be the books themselves, it appears to be original research by synthesis, which is generally forbidden by Wikipedia policy. It needs to cite multiple secondary sources that report the same information that is presented in the article.
If these issues are not fixed soon after the deletion discussion closes, it stands a good chance of being nominated again with a reason such as "Previously closed as Keep and cleanup but was not cleaned up and still appears to fail WP:OR and is still written like an essay" which is more likely to attract some "delete" !votes than the current nom. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ 19:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The new sources provided are better than nothing, but they are far from adequate.
I can help clean up some of the unnecessary examples, if anyone wishes for me to do so. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ 03:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't disagree that this article contains a lot of things which you'd take away from the books but which you can't cite because it's the strong assumptions of every reader. (Though I would disagree that Mrs. Weasley doesn't like Muggles -- just is slightly perturbed by her husband's strong fascination -- so as this is an opinion, and can definitely not cited, it should be removed.) I have a book of Harry Potter essays, one of which partially discusses purity of blood. --03:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
This article has far too many examples. It goes into far more detail about the families than is necessary for an article about a plot device, especially as it seems most of the families have their own articles anyway.
I've pulled out a few random examples:
These are by no means all of the unnecessary examples. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ 18:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I didn't spot this in time to chime in on the AfD debate, but I do see a small problem with the title of this article. When I first saw Blood purity my original assumption was that it was going to be an article on the concept of "Blood Quanta" Native_Americans_in_the_United_States#Blood_Quanta which is a real application of the concept of "blood purity".
Because of the potential for confusion and misdirection, I would propose that this article be moved to a less ambiguous name such as Blood purity in Harry Potter or Blood purity (Harry Potter) or something similar, and this page be turned in to a disambiguation page pointing both to this content as well as the Native Americans article.
Because this just underwent a contentious AfD debate, I am refraining from making this move unilaterally and waiting to see what, if any, thoughts on the matter come up. Arkyan • (talk) 20:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Found another quote by Rowling, which could be used as secondary source. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2353000/2353529.stm Neville Longbottom 17:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
This article (and not the talk page) was moved by means of copy-and-paste. I've reverted that; since it needs to be moved by an admin, I've asked John Reaves to do so. Michael Sanders 15:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC) No It is scientific theory, you guys are wrong about everything. Really.
Although this probably seems inappropriate, should it not be mentioned somewhere that mudblood is basically the equivalent of the term 'n-word' for African-Americans? 71.244.106.78
In the Lestrange Family section, it says that a M Lestrange is a ghost at the Ministry of Magic and owned one of the first stores at the Diagon Alley. Where did those pieces of information came from? 201.37.226.89 22:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Folken and I disagree on whether the Potters should be listed as a pure-blood family; I say yes, Folken says no. My rationale is that Harry and Ginny's kids are all pure-blood, as their grandparents were all magical, and this is the criterion for being considered pure-blood. Ginny, of course, is also a pure-blood. In fact, Harry and his mother are the only Potters not to be pure-blood (and of course Lily wasn't really a Potter, but rather an Evans). Given this, I can't see why the Potters would not be considered a pure-blood family. Comments? faithless (speak) 13:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not asserting things I can't be sure of. JKR has told us what constitutes blood purity. The Potters were an old pure-blood family, Harry being the only blip on the radar. Per the link provided, we know what characters such as Voldemort and Umbridge would think. Of the five Potters we know of at the end of DH, four are pure-blood. Why would the family not be considered pure-blood? We know the criterion, and the Potters pass it. By suggesting that the characters might go against the "rules" that the author has told us exist for determining blood-purity, it is you who is introducing original research into the article. In short, the author has told us what constitutes a pure-blood, and four of five Potters meet the standard. Why should they not be listed as such? faithless (speak) 22:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Rowling has stated what constitutes blood purity, per he link above. This is not my opinion, it is the author explaining the thought process of her characters. What makes me "think that people like Malfoy, Umbridge or Voldemort, would be glad to consider the Potters as pure blood?" Maybe the fact that the previous Potter family, the Weasleys, Longbottoms, MacMillans, Prewetts, Sirius Black, etc. were considered pure-blood. You're suggesting that the "bad guys" wouldn't consider the Potters pure-blood just because they don't like them; that's obviously not the case. There are pure-bloods on both sides. It is not up to Malfoy, Umbridge or anyone else to say who's PB; otherwise why would families like the Longbottoms and Weasleys be included? True, the only ones who actually care about that sort of thing are the bad guys, but the criterion for inclusion is the same no matter how you feel about it: that all four of your grandparents be magical. Again, this is not my opinion. We've been told what makes a pure-blood, haven't we? Yes. And four of the five living Potters meet the standard, don't they? Yes. faithless (speak) 12:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
From her official site:
The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' have been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and express their originators' prejudices. As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concerned, for instance, a Muggle-born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his mother's grandparents.
If you think this is far-fetched, look at some of the real charts the Nazis used to show what constituted 'Aryan' or 'Jewish' blood. I saw one in the Holocaust Museum in Washington when I had already devised the 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' definitions, and was chilled to see that the Nazis used precisely the same warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda.
Are all the pure-blood families going to die out? (We've lost the Blacks and the Crouches during the series)
Don't forget that, as Sirius revealed in 'Order of the Phoenix', none of these families is really 'pure' – in other words, they merely cross Muggles and Squibs off the family tree and pretend that they didn't exist. But yes, the number of families claiming to be pure is diminishing. By refusing to marry Muggles or Muggle-borns, they are finding it increasingly difficult to perpetuate themselves. This subject is touched upon in 'Half-Blood Prince'.
Genetic discussion of blood purity. Not good though; says Wizard gene is recessive. He obviously hasn't been reading the books carefully. Mugglenet's discussion is better.
[HP's Brazilian translator on issues with making Harry relevant http://www.erudit.org/revue/meta/2003/v48/n1/006954ar.html]:
• the concept of blue or pure blood was used deprecatingly in Brazil in the last century and is now relatively unknown except in animal breeding, although “good blood” has recently become current slang for a trustworthy person
“Harry Potter and the deconstruction of childhood”. Decent ref for the comparisons between Voldemort and Harry as regards blood. Can't be linked to. Must be found on Google Scholar
The wizard world from a sociological perspective.
Jumping Jesus on a palomino, there is a lot of cruft here. I've only tagged a few sections and I'm starting to think that this is like trying to grab a handful of water - it's all OR by synthesis. And who is suggesting that Harry is half-blood? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
"Dogs have four legs" doesn't mean "Four legs means dog". "He got 64% and failed the test" doesn't mean "Failing the test means you get 64% or below". "Harry isn't pureblood because he had muggle grandparents" doesn't mean "the standard for blood purity is the presence or absence of Muggle grandparents." This isn't OR, its logic. Apparently my quoting of a particularily apt Monty Python quote was unappreciated, so I shant do that again, but it is still the case that Logic isn't algebra. Unless JK says that "Blood purity means four wizard grandparents" then we can't assume that. WookMuff 09:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I propose we just do what was done at the Weasley article and remove it from this one. Regardless of who is right about the Potters blood status, it's crufty as hell anyways, and hurts the aesthetics of an already ugly, crufty page. Thoughts? faithless (speak) 06:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Whats with all the thousands of "citation neeeded" tags for things that are straight from the book. Is someone just trying to be POINTy?. No article would have that many references, if you need refs that badly, why not try {{NOREFS}}.-- Jac16888 16:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 6 April 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
As interesting and thorough as this article is, much of it seems to be original analysis and speculation by fans who come to their own conclusions based on evidence given by the books and JK Rowling. Although I have nothing personally against this, Wikipedia needs to be based off of reliable secondary (and not primary) sources. Which means, no original research.
In addition, I don't think that talk about genetics is approriate at all in this article, as it was demonstrated how, in the world defined by Rowling, the laws of genetics don't exactly work as they should. And we're bringing in terms that should be deemed irrelevant to the subject, and talk about genetics is obviously original research. However, if you ask me, magic ability could probably be linked to "magic energies" present in the cells themselves, or maybe mitochrondria, which have their own DNA and exist as part of the cell.
Anyways.... alot of this stuff has got to go, i think... :( Blueaster 23:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
{{ examplefarm}} {{ in-universe}} {{ Synthesis}} {{ Missing information}}
It appears at this point that the article will be kept, so I will report some of the issues raised:
The reason that this appears to be a "fan article" is because it reads like one. It simply describes a concept used throughout the series, making no reference, that I can find at least, to the literaty significance of said concept. It gives a ton of facts about the stories (way too many) without delving into the symbolism behind the concept. It just doesn't "look" encyclopedic. It looks like the kind of thing I would expect to find on a Harry Potter fansite, not in an encyclopedia. As it stands, this isn't an article about a theme but about a simple idea used in the books.
The article needs a serious reduction in current content; there are far too many examples, making it seem like an attempt at a research paper and not an encyclopedia article. While articles shold be detailed, this one reads like an example farm.
Also, it has a serious lack of secondary sources, which is one of the main reasoms it was nominated for deletion. As the main source for this seems to be the books themselves, it appears to be original research by synthesis, which is generally forbidden by Wikipedia policy. It needs to cite multiple secondary sources that report the same information that is presented in the article.
If these issues are not fixed soon after the deletion discussion closes, it stands a good chance of being nominated again with a reason such as "Previously closed as Keep and cleanup but was not cleaned up and still appears to fail WP:OR and is still written like an essay" which is more likely to attract some "delete" !votes than the current nom. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ 19:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The new sources provided are better than nothing, but they are far from adequate.
I can help clean up some of the unnecessary examples, if anyone wishes for me to do so. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ 03:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't disagree that this article contains a lot of things which you'd take away from the books but which you can't cite because it's the strong assumptions of every reader. (Though I would disagree that Mrs. Weasley doesn't like Muggles -- just is slightly perturbed by her husband's strong fascination -- so as this is an opinion, and can definitely not cited, it should be removed.) I have a book of Harry Potter essays, one of which partially discusses purity of blood. --03:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
This article has far too many examples. It goes into far more detail about the families than is necessary for an article about a plot device, especially as it seems most of the families have their own articles anyway.
I've pulled out a few random examples:
These are by no means all of the unnecessary examples. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ 18:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I didn't spot this in time to chime in on the AfD debate, but I do see a small problem with the title of this article. When I first saw Blood purity my original assumption was that it was going to be an article on the concept of "Blood Quanta" Native_Americans_in_the_United_States#Blood_Quanta which is a real application of the concept of "blood purity".
Because of the potential for confusion and misdirection, I would propose that this article be moved to a less ambiguous name such as Blood purity in Harry Potter or Blood purity (Harry Potter) or something similar, and this page be turned in to a disambiguation page pointing both to this content as well as the Native Americans article.
Because this just underwent a contentious AfD debate, I am refraining from making this move unilaterally and waiting to see what, if any, thoughts on the matter come up. Arkyan • (talk) 20:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Found another quote by Rowling, which could be used as secondary source. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2353000/2353529.stm Neville Longbottom 17:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
This article (and not the talk page) was moved by means of copy-and-paste. I've reverted that; since it needs to be moved by an admin, I've asked John Reaves to do so. Michael Sanders 15:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC) No It is scientific theory, you guys are wrong about everything. Really.
Although this probably seems inappropriate, should it not be mentioned somewhere that mudblood is basically the equivalent of the term 'n-word' for African-Americans? 71.244.106.78
In the Lestrange Family section, it says that a M Lestrange is a ghost at the Ministry of Magic and owned one of the first stores at the Diagon Alley. Where did those pieces of information came from? 201.37.226.89 22:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Folken and I disagree on whether the Potters should be listed as a pure-blood family; I say yes, Folken says no. My rationale is that Harry and Ginny's kids are all pure-blood, as their grandparents were all magical, and this is the criterion for being considered pure-blood. Ginny, of course, is also a pure-blood. In fact, Harry and his mother are the only Potters not to be pure-blood (and of course Lily wasn't really a Potter, but rather an Evans). Given this, I can't see why the Potters would not be considered a pure-blood family. Comments? faithless (speak) 13:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not asserting things I can't be sure of. JKR has told us what constitutes blood purity. The Potters were an old pure-blood family, Harry being the only blip on the radar. Per the link provided, we know what characters such as Voldemort and Umbridge would think. Of the five Potters we know of at the end of DH, four are pure-blood. Why would the family not be considered pure-blood? We know the criterion, and the Potters pass it. By suggesting that the characters might go against the "rules" that the author has told us exist for determining blood-purity, it is you who is introducing original research into the article. In short, the author has told us what constitutes a pure-blood, and four of five Potters meet the standard. Why should they not be listed as such? faithless (speak) 22:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Rowling has stated what constitutes blood purity, per he link above. This is not my opinion, it is the author explaining the thought process of her characters. What makes me "think that people like Malfoy, Umbridge or Voldemort, would be glad to consider the Potters as pure blood?" Maybe the fact that the previous Potter family, the Weasleys, Longbottoms, MacMillans, Prewetts, Sirius Black, etc. were considered pure-blood. You're suggesting that the "bad guys" wouldn't consider the Potters pure-blood just because they don't like them; that's obviously not the case. There are pure-bloods on both sides. It is not up to Malfoy, Umbridge or anyone else to say who's PB; otherwise why would families like the Longbottoms and Weasleys be included? True, the only ones who actually care about that sort of thing are the bad guys, but the criterion for inclusion is the same no matter how you feel about it: that all four of your grandparents be magical. Again, this is not my opinion. We've been told what makes a pure-blood, haven't we? Yes. And four of the five living Potters meet the standard, don't they? Yes. faithless (speak) 12:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
From her official site:
The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' have been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and express their originators' prejudices. As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concerned, for instance, a Muggle-born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his mother's grandparents.
If you think this is far-fetched, look at some of the real charts the Nazis used to show what constituted 'Aryan' or 'Jewish' blood. I saw one in the Holocaust Museum in Washington when I had already devised the 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' definitions, and was chilled to see that the Nazis used precisely the same warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda.
Are all the pure-blood families going to die out? (We've lost the Blacks and the Crouches during the series)
Don't forget that, as Sirius revealed in 'Order of the Phoenix', none of these families is really 'pure' – in other words, they merely cross Muggles and Squibs off the family tree and pretend that they didn't exist. But yes, the number of families claiming to be pure is diminishing. By refusing to marry Muggles or Muggle-borns, they are finding it increasingly difficult to perpetuate themselves. This subject is touched upon in 'Half-Blood Prince'.
Genetic discussion of blood purity. Not good though; says Wizard gene is recessive. He obviously hasn't been reading the books carefully. Mugglenet's discussion is better.
[HP's Brazilian translator on issues with making Harry relevant http://www.erudit.org/revue/meta/2003/v48/n1/006954ar.html]:
• the concept of blue or pure blood was used deprecatingly in Brazil in the last century and is now relatively unknown except in animal breeding, although “good blood” has recently become current slang for a trustworthy person
“Harry Potter and the deconstruction of childhood”. Decent ref for the comparisons between Voldemort and Harry as regards blood. Can't be linked to. Must be found on Google Scholar
The wizard world from a sociological perspective.
Jumping Jesus on a palomino, there is a lot of cruft here. I've only tagged a few sections and I'm starting to think that this is like trying to grab a handful of water - it's all OR by synthesis. And who is suggesting that Harry is half-blood? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
"Dogs have four legs" doesn't mean "Four legs means dog". "He got 64% and failed the test" doesn't mean "Failing the test means you get 64% or below". "Harry isn't pureblood because he had muggle grandparents" doesn't mean "the standard for blood purity is the presence or absence of Muggle grandparents." This isn't OR, its logic. Apparently my quoting of a particularily apt Monty Python quote was unappreciated, so I shant do that again, but it is still the case that Logic isn't algebra. Unless JK says that "Blood purity means four wizard grandparents" then we can't assume that. WookMuff 09:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I propose we just do what was done at the Weasley article and remove it from this one. Regardless of who is right about the Potters blood status, it's crufty as hell anyways, and hurts the aesthetics of an already ugly, crufty page. Thoughts? faithless (speak) 06:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Whats with all the thousands of "citation neeeded" tags for things that are straight from the book. Is someone just trying to be POINTy?. No article would have that many references, if you need refs that badly, why not try {{NOREFS}}.-- Jac16888 16:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)