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Blockade of Nagorno-Karabakh article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Armenia, Azerbaijan, or related conflicts, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
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This article contains a translation of 员謤謥铡窄斋 辗謤栈铡謨铡寨崭謧沾 (2022) from hy.wikipedia. ( 1127275264 et seq.) |
On 7 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Nagorno-Karabakh blockade. The result of the discussion was Moved to Blockade of Nagorno-Karabakh. |
No, no. I just stumbled on this article and I was impressed by the sources and their placement. It is done in a way that does not distract from the reading. Impressive article so far.~~ 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by 69.167.196.62 ( talk) 17:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for your feedback on my user page.
I agree that there is citation overkill. Part of that was from a structural edit, but also because a lot of articles in the Armenia/Azerbaijan topics are subject to contentious editing so generally if anything isn't cited it's often removed.
Let's start with definitions regarding your edit where you added "(alleged)" to one of the goals of the blockade.
Ethnic cleansing
Although "ethnic cleansing" does not have a strict legal definition, it usually includes intentional forced migration (either direct or indirect) through coercion, intimidation, and/or genocide. These characteristics are mentioned by United Nations entities, including the UNSC. [1] Two other characteristics listed by the UNSC include " arbitrary arrest and detention ... confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas." [2]
Genocide
The intentional destruction of a people based on their perceived membership in a group. Also some genocide scholars and advocacy groups criticize the distinction, many media and scholars consider genocide to be a form of ethnic cleansing but not all ethnic cleansing is genocide.
In the context of the blockade
Numerous reliable sources describe the blockade as aimed at ethnic cleansing and/or genocide.
Numerous reliable sources also characterize the blockade as a form of "intimidation", "coercion," and state that there is "intention" to "expel" or cause an "outflow" of the Armenian population.
Given this, I'm struggling to see why you added "alleged" to the infobox. Looking forward to hearing you feedback on this!
R.Lemkin ( talk) 18:38, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
References
Khachatryan's detention confirms the fears of many Karabakh Armenians that, if Azerbaijan assumes control over Karabakh, it will detain (and torture) them arbitrarily, using their participation in one or more of the wars as justification. This criteria extends to nearly every male resident of the small enclave. "Arrests with linkages to the past wars, local army or the [Karabakh] government 鈥ould quality almost all local men for detentions," wrote Olesya Vartanyan, International Crisis Group's senior analyst for the South Caucasus. The detainees can expect torture or worse, as the Armenian prisoners of war following the 2020 war conflict experienced.
As seen in the Aftermath section of the Azerbaijani offensive article, supplies are now pouring into Nagorno-Karabakh, from the Russians, the Red Cross, and, according to Azerbaijan, from Azerbaijan. It doesn't appear that Azerbaijan is restricting the movement of humanitarian supplies at this point, nor does it appear that it's trying to block deliveries of supplies or evacuations of Armenians - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 14:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Kevo327; I understand that you are an Armenian, but it's important to put our biases aside here. You've constantly been reverting what I've been doing which improves this (and other) articles related to this topic, and it's starting to feel like you just want to control every edit made here. There's no ownership of this page, please remember that.
Next, the usage of the word indigenous. It's inaccurate, since it implies that Armenians are the absolute first and only native inhabitants of the region, while there have been other civilizations in the area across milleniums. Many groups are native to the region and to describe Armenians as the only indigenous from Nagorno-Karabakh is not acknowledging NPOV. Additionally, I could only find
R.Lemkin, a now-blocked user (and probably biased too), promoting the usage of this word on this article. It doesn't even seem to have a widespread usage across Wikipedia, but just here.
Ethnic Armenians is a perfectly respectable and neutral way to refer to the (
now-departed) Armenian population of the region/breakaway state. It doesn't remove from the understanding of the understanding of the article. In fact, it adds to the understanding of the goals of the blockade, since many Armenians who are not originally from Nagorno-Karabakh but who moved from Armenia into NKR were also ethnically cleansed from the region. If it was just a campaign against "indigenous" Armenians, then the non-indigenous ones would surely have not been targeted, right? It doesn't add up. Ethnic Armenians is perfectly respectable and follows
WP:NPOV.
Paul Vaurie (
talk)
18:33, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
There just seems to be some kind of inability to understand each other on this topic (which I have my beliefs as to why), so I will just abandon for now. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 17:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
I updated that this event is not ongoing anymore. Since September 2023, there is practically no movement on this road, as the majority of the Armenian population left the region. To my knowledge, there are no recent reports on any blockade on this road in the international media. Grand master 11:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Paul Vaurie: Wasn't the reasoning behind adding the quotes because multiple reliable sources do so? By not using quotes, a lot of undue weight is put on the environmentalist claim. KhndzorUtogh ( talk) 23:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Blockade of Nagorno-Karabakh article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources:聽 Google ( books聽路 news聽路 scholar聽路 free images聽路 WP聽refs)聽路 FENS聽路 JSTOR聽路 TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30聽days聽 |
| ||||||||||
A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " In the news" column on January 7, 2023. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Armenia, Azerbaijan, or related conflicts, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article contains a translation of 员謤謥铡窄斋 辗謤栈铡謨铡寨崭謧沾 (2022) from hy.wikipedia. ( 1127275264 et seq.) |
On 7 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Nagorno-Karabakh blockade. The result of the discussion was Moved to Blockade of Nagorno-Karabakh. |
No, no. I just stumbled on this article and I was impressed by the sources and their placement. It is done in a way that does not distract from the reading. Impressive article so far.~~ 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by 69.167.196.62 ( talk) 17:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for your feedback on my user page.
I agree that there is citation overkill. Part of that was from a structural edit, but also because a lot of articles in the Armenia/Azerbaijan topics are subject to contentious editing so generally if anything isn't cited it's often removed.
Let's start with definitions regarding your edit where you added "(alleged)" to one of the goals of the blockade.
Ethnic cleansing
Although "ethnic cleansing" does not have a strict legal definition, it usually includes intentional forced migration (either direct or indirect) through coercion, intimidation, and/or genocide. These characteristics are mentioned by United Nations entities, including the UNSC. [1] Two other characteristics listed by the UNSC include " arbitrary arrest and detention ... confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas." [2]
Genocide
The intentional destruction of a people based on their perceived membership in a group. Also some genocide scholars and advocacy groups criticize the distinction, many media and scholars consider genocide to be a form of ethnic cleansing but not all ethnic cleansing is genocide.
In the context of the blockade
Numerous reliable sources describe the blockade as aimed at ethnic cleansing and/or genocide.
Numerous reliable sources also characterize the blockade as a form of "intimidation", "coercion," and state that there is "intention" to "expel" or cause an "outflow" of the Armenian population.
Given this, I'm struggling to see why you added "alleged" to the infobox. Looking forward to hearing you feedback on this!
R.Lemkin ( talk) 18:38, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
References
Khachatryan's detention confirms the fears of many Karabakh Armenians that, if Azerbaijan assumes control over Karabakh, it will detain (and torture) them arbitrarily, using their participation in one or more of the wars as justification. This criteria extends to nearly every male resident of the small enclave. "Arrests with linkages to the past wars, local army or the [Karabakh] government 鈥ould quality almost all local men for detentions," wrote Olesya Vartanyan, International Crisis Group's senior analyst for the South Caucasus. The detainees can expect torture or worse, as the Armenian prisoners of war following the 2020 war conflict experienced.
As seen in the Aftermath section of the Azerbaijani offensive article, supplies are now pouring into Nagorno-Karabakh, from the Russians, the Red Cross, and, according to Azerbaijan, from Azerbaijan. It doesn't appear that Azerbaijan is restricting the movement of humanitarian supplies at this point, nor does it appear that it's trying to block deliveries of supplies or evacuations of Armenians - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 14:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Kevo327; I understand that you are an Armenian, but it's important to put our biases aside here. You've constantly been reverting what I've been doing which improves this (and other) articles related to this topic, and it's starting to feel like you just want to control every edit made here. There's no ownership of this page, please remember that.
Next, the usage of the word indigenous. It's inaccurate, since it implies that Armenians are the absolute first and only native inhabitants of the region, while there have been other civilizations in the area across milleniums. Many groups are native to the region and to describe Armenians as the only indigenous from Nagorno-Karabakh is not acknowledging NPOV. Additionally, I could only find
R.Lemkin, a now-blocked user (and probably biased too), promoting the usage of this word on this article. It doesn't even seem to have a widespread usage across Wikipedia, but just here.
Ethnic Armenians is a perfectly respectable and neutral way to refer to the (
now-departed) Armenian population of the region/breakaway state. It doesn't remove from the understanding of the understanding of the article. In fact, it adds to the understanding of the goals of the blockade, since many Armenians who are not originally from Nagorno-Karabakh but who moved from Armenia into NKR were also ethnically cleansed from the region. If it was just a campaign against "indigenous" Armenians, then the non-indigenous ones would surely have not been targeted, right? It doesn't add up. Ethnic Armenians is perfectly respectable and follows
WP:NPOV.
Paul Vaurie (
talk)
18:33, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
There just seems to be some kind of inability to understand each other on this topic (which I have my beliefs as to why), so I will just abandon for now. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 17:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
I updated that this event is not ongoing anymore. Since September 2023, there is practically no movement on this road, as the majority of the Armenian population left the region. To my knowledge, there are no recent reports on any blockade on this road in the international media. Grand master 11:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Paul Vaurie: Wasn't the reasoning behind adding the quotes because multiple reliable sources do so? By not using quotes, a lot of undue weight is put on the environmentalist claim. KhndzorUtogh ( talk) 23:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC)