![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
There was a move request to "Oblast", but a small majority was opposed. R adiant _>|< 00:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Discussion at Talk:Oblasts of Bulgaria==Removal of dear all== This article below is without any connection to the article.We are not talking about the macedonian issue but for the Blagoevgrad province.It is too long and not to the point.It contains personal and biased views,not supported with facts.I think that removing my articles is vandalism!!!
I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia. I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts. Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia. This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia? Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs. Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia? If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!! Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess. But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it? Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians. Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family. How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there? Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito. Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country. Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians). Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled). Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors). Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians. If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed. Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims. Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web. There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia. The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia is@on.net.mk
I AGREE 100% with Igor!! Have a look at this page:
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov1.html
And its a Canadian page, not Macedonian!
Arnegjor 11:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Wikipedia calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Wikipedia) have the exclusive right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people. In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Wikipedia claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Wikipedia claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Wikipedia does NOW). Then, Wikipedia claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town. Wikipedia says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Wikipedia claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Wikipedia says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?... A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Wikipedia completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time. Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Wikipedia says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case? Wikipedia later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free. Wikipedia even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.
On some places Wikipedia says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.
On the other hand, Wikipedia says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS??? BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.
In this case, Wikipedia is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites. I am a living prove of the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change. How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?
Senceirly, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia
JUST SEARCH THE WEB, YOU CAN SEE HOW WRONG WIKIPEDIA IS!!! ONLY THE PRO-BULGARIAN AND PRO-GREEK SITES HAVE THE SAME CLAIMS AS WIKIPEDIA. MOST OF THEM ARE ONLY CLAIMS THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY FALSIFICATED LETTERS. The TURKISH WERE SUPERIOR AT THAT TIME AND ARE A NEUTRAL SIDE. AND FAR BIGGER PART OF THEM IDENTIFY THE MACEDONIANS AS SEPARATE NATION, MACEDONIANS. WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL??? I DO NOT THINK SO!!!
You know, Wikipedia has nothing to do with this, there's no corporation or entreprise called "Wikipedia". The only persons writing articles here are members like you and I. If it appears as though the pro-Greek and pro-Bulgarian sides are shown a lot more than the pro-Macedonian one, that's probably because there's more Bulgarians and Greeks out there writing and editing the articles. In that case it is your job and that of the other Macedonians to balance it out. User:Red Star
By the way, do you expect people to read all of your rant? It's 10 times longer than the article!
WHY DO YOU ONLY USE PRO-GREEK AND PRO-BULGARIAN SOURCES AND NOT NEUTRAL ONES? CHECK THIS:
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov1.html
Arnegjor 11:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand why you rant here - use the macedonia discussion page instead. If you feel macedonian - this is fine with me, but what is the connection with Blagoevgrad Province? Peace
In fact OMO Ilinden - Pirin isn't political party but a small group of enthusiasts of yugoslav macedonian ethnic idea. It isn't registered and probably it never will be registered because of too small number of supporters. According to 2001 census there are only 3 117 ethnic Macedonians in the district.
'OMO Ilinden - Pirin has 4, 500 - 5, 000 members, and most of them (99%) say, they are ethnic Macedonians! And, as it happens, they have families who also (as it happens - again!) claim to be of Macedonian ethnic origin!
And, this is well known fact(for everybody except the Bulgarians themselves!!!): Pirin Macedonia has always been Macedonian! Do not believe? Just face the truth: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianMinorities/images/eurominority.jpg
I removed the link below
from the main article and pit it here, in the discussion, because this map represents wrong data about demography of Blagoevgrad region and besides that the link leads to macedonian nationalistic site History of Macedonia, which exposes only the macedonian hypertrophic point of view. I offer you a strong evidence about lies, which traditionally come from Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia, about the existence of large macedonian ethnic minority in southwest Bulgaria. This is an excerpt from the sentence of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg from the cases of OMO Ilinden and OMO Ilinden PIRIN Against Bulgaria (20.10.2005):
"Moreover, there was no indication that the applicant party had any real chance of bringing about political changes which would not meet with the approval of everyone on the political stage. Indeed, it was recognised that the public influence of the applicant party was negligible. It therefore appeared that the constitutional court’s holding that the applicant party’s activity truly “imperil[ed] [Bulgaria’s] national security” was not based on an acceptable assessment of the relevant facts."
The source of that text is the site of OMO Pirin: Macedonian Minority Organizations, OMO Ilinden and OMO Ilinden PIRIN, Win Landmark European Court of Human Rights Cases Against Bulgaria
In the similar case, sentenced on 19 january 2006, the court stated that there are only over 3 000 supporters of the macedonian ethnic movement in this region and, still more, not all of them were active. As it is obvious, there isn't any large macedonian ethnic minority in Blagoevgrad province and there aren't any significant ethnic macedonian organisations in Bulgaria. And, of course, it is logical - after last bulgarian census there are only 3 117 ethnic Macedonians in the district. As a conclusion I beg the macedonian nationalists from Former Yugoslavian Repubilc of Macedonia to stop their interference in the demography data in that article.
Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I cannot imagine where you will come across Blagoevgrad Province as Pirin Macedonia. This is not Greece with a province of Macedonia that is referred to as such by the European Union. This is Bulgaria and Sofia has not presented any 'Pirin Macedonia' region of province to the EU. So we have to accept that it is the wishful thinking of Skopje dreamers. I have no problem with that but this is not the place to dream, but to present facts. Makedonija 12:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Todor, you have just proved my point, IMRO! talks about Pirin Macedonia and we know what they want. But most Bulgarians have no idea what Pirin Macedonia means. Perhaps you disagree but there are no statistics either way. But that is not the main issue. The real situation why this has to be removed is because there are no official documents in Bulgaria, Europe or UN with that 'province' and there are no maps with that name (and please do not tell me you found one or two in Skopje or IMRO offices). So how can we justify placing 'Pirin Macedonia' up in the first paragraph? If there are some Greeks who, because of 'Nevrokop' and 'Melenikio' and a few other villages where Greek used to live, might call it 'Greek Macedonia', do we have to mention that as well? You bet no! I do not find the name 'Western Bulgaria' offensive for Republic of Macedonia and many Bulgarian call it like that. So I hope you will agree to include 'Western Bulgaria' in Republic of Macedonia and I will agree to keep Pirin Macedonia. Makedonija 14:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Bulgaria is facing many problems to join the EU. But look at Albania and Moldova, they are economically and socially much worse off and they are like republic of macedonia. It is not because of the Greeks that they are not in. You think Skopje was worried about economic blockade? They are still refusing to link up the rail link with Bulgaria!!! It is only 14 kilometers to complete, Bulgarians say yes but they say no. Makedonija 14:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I have not seen official documents from EU presenting the name isse. All the objections concentrate on other issues (R Moldova has candidate status? but the country is divided into two like republic of macedonia between east and west) Makedonija 14:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know [2] but thank you. There only one mention about the effects of the name: "Relations with Greece have improved in the last few years. Greece is the most important investor in the country (57% of the total foreign investments) and trade has been constantly increasing. However the dispute over the name of the country has remained an open issue since 1993." So it is an open issue - that is all, together with the open issue with claiming Blagoevgrad Province but Bulgaria is not in the EU and so this does not get mentioned. Makedonija 15:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Size is not important. Of course they can claim whatever they want. But they are also pushing their irredentist talk everywhere like here in Wikipedia. Size does not matter to cause chaos. There are many crazy people who think they have god on their side or that they are suffering because of crazy thinking about historical injustice and then they build an ideology that says you are allowed to do anything against other people. I think these people of republic of macedonia already have a machinery to cause harm like their extremists did in the war against the Albanians. It is our duty to expose them because we want to build roads and communications and cooperation and we do not want to build dangerous differences. Makedonija 15:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I was threaten by Todor Bozhinov:
"3RR You've violated the three-revert rule on Pirin Macedonia. I'm not sure you're familiar with it and I'm not going to report you for now (you haven't been warned), but if you revert once more you'll very likely be reported and blocked.
By the way, I don't see what's the problem with my version — many people find the name exactly offensive — you fall in the other category, so it's just a matter of how people see it today. Recent Macedonistic propaganda has played a role in this resentment against the name by some Bulgarians, no doubt about it. Todor→Bozhinov 13:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)"
The reason is the next Todor Bozhinov's note:
"The name 'Pirin Macedonia' is regarded as offensive by many Bulgarians, who assert that it is widely used by Macedonists as part of the irredentist concept of United Macedonia. However, many people in the country also think of the name as a purely geographical term, which it has historically been. Its use is, thus, controversial."
Dear Todor Bozhinov, for me your redaction is neither true nor acceptable and yes, I doubt about it. Don't you think you should prove that for MANY Bulgarians the name Pirin Macedonia is offensive? Please give to the readers and authors of the Wikipedia reliable arguments for that assertion.
85.187.163.40 and TodorBozhinov seem to be involved in an edit war on the inclusion of an image illustrating the Battle of Kleidion. As this battle took place within present-day Blagoevgrad Province, it is related to the subject, but it is not yet related to the content of the article. I propose to include the picture on the condition that 85.187.163.40 (or someone else) also writes a short history section that the image can relate to. Preslav 13:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Please, explain me, are there any really disputable points in this section:
Pirin Macedonia
![]() |
The region is regarded by many of the people living in the Republic of Macedonia as part of an irredentist imaginary state that unites the whole geographical region of Macedonia.
However, these claims are due to the long period of propaganda-like history in the Republic Macedonia.
Today the idea of “united” Macedonia is part of the doctrines only of extremely right-orientated parties and organizations in the Republic of Macedonia. Only a negligible 3,117 of the province's population of 341,245 described themselves as ethnic Macedonians in 2001, Bulgarians being an overwhelming majority of 286,491.
This low number of ethnic Macedonians in the region is explained by supporters of Macedonism as being a result of repression. They also assert that the number of Macedonians in the province was much larger as recorded by the 1948 and 1956 censuses, claiming that then- Stalinist Bulgaria recognised a distinct Macedonian minority and allowed free self-determination (and implying this is not the case today). This is explained by Bulgarians as being part of the Comintern's and the Bulgarian Communist Party's policy of the time, which supported a USSR-backed admission of Bulgaria to Yugoslavia with the corresponding incorporation of Pirin Macedonia into the Macedonian Socialist Republic. With the easing of this trend the idea of promoting a separate national consciousness in Pirin Macedonia lost support.
I think this passage is relatively well sourced with many links to other articles. I can't see any flagrantly inadequate information. Best wishes,
Jackanapes 01:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
P. s. I just have read the dispute between Todor Bozhinov and Dan Carkner in their personal talk pages. Maybe it will be better for all of us to continue the discussion here. Jackanapes 02:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I do think that the section could cause many Macedonians (citizens of the republic) to see red because of the way it is phrased; in fact I'm supprised it hasn't been vandalised by anonymous editors with Macedonian IP-addresses yet (-:. It should be rewritten without using the words "imaginary", "propaganda-like", "doctrines", "extremely", "negligible" and "overwhelming", because these words are emotional. "irredentist" may cause offense because many don't know what it means and a fanatic Macedonist may interpret it as negative without consulting the article about it.
Preslav 07:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
You all know deep in your soles that you are Bulgarians. The serbs made you "Macedonians" after they failed to make you serbs. I think that Macedonia should finnaly join Bulgaria. It is better for you, not for us.-- Gligan 19:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
According to Stoyko Stoykov, one of the leaders of the non-registered ethnic Macedonian political party OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN (abbreviation of United Macedonian Organization "Ilinden" - Party for Economic Development and Integration of the population), the present number of the ethnic Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia is between 5,000 and 10,000:
Source. - Jackanapes 02:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Pirin Macedonia is term which point to the one of the parts of ethnic Macedonia. It is different term then Blagoevgrad Province in Republic of Bulgaria. By the current teritorial subdivisions, Blagoevgrad Province spread almost to the same teritory as Pirin Macedonia. -- Brest 08:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC) (copied from Talk:Pirin Macedonia by Preslav 10:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC))
Politis, the name Pirin Macedonia has its Bulgarian tradition. Some examples. Ivan Mihailov's "Memoirs", volume 2, part 2, chapter 13 "The situation in Pirin Macedonia. Auxuliary IMRO"; volume 3, part 3, chapter 17 about the "Petrich incident" in 1925 - the name "Pirin Macedonia" is used; volume 4, chapter 4, named exactly "The situation in Pirin Macedonia". Again Ivan Mihailov's book, "On the thorny road of the Macedonian liberating deed" from 1939, chapter 6 concerns the usage of the name "Macedonia" after the coup in Bulgaria in 1934. Contemporary Bulgarian academic example: "Macedonia. History and political destiny" in 3 volumes, collective of historians, Sofia, 1998, volumes 2 and 3 - "Pirin Macedonia" is widely used. - Jackanapes 18:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok no problem, I will leave it as it is. Also, as far as I can tell the term was first introduced in the 1920 or 1930s. Will check out my sources. Politis 19:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
can remove the automatic redirect when you search 'pirin macedonians'. there is an actual article pirin macedonians P m kocovski ( talk) 21:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Since less than 1% of the population in the municipality declares Macedonian ethnic self-determination there is absolutely no reason this group of people to be mentioned in a separate paragraph.Sorry to disappoint the Macedonists but there are 2 bigger minorities than the so called Macedonian, so mentioning the presence of Macedonians and their number is more than enough.Furthermore, even to the boldest estimates of the leader of the OMO, the people calling themselves Macedonians are between 1.5% and 3%. -- BulgarianPatriot ( talk)
Once again, please stop reverting "information" which is obviously biased and doesn`t correspond to the requirement for NPOW.If you want to add something about the people with Macedonian national sense then do it in "Demographics".The previous version was imposing ideology of Macedonism which obviously is accepted by a very small share of the residents.Furthermore, this region is one of the biggest educational centers in Bulgaria and there are many foreign students, including from Vardar Macedonia which means that the number of the people who were born in Bulgaria is even smaller.Whether you like it or not, it`s from no importance.Just add once again the propagandist text and I`ll contact the admins or probably I should add very detailed information in the article for every single Macedonian municipality about the number of the people who applied for BG citizenship and signed declaration for Bulgarian self-identity. -- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 07:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, for a 3rd and let`s hope last time- Why do you keep reverting the Macedonist propaganda?There is a separate article for the so called Macedonians in Bulgaria and there is absolutely no need to copy the whole text.This article concerns the Blagoevgrad region itself, not the attempts of some people to build their nation.Those who express ethnic self-determination as the citizens of the Former Jugoslav Republic of Macedonia are less than 1% of the total population and represent neither the first, nor the second, nor the third but the fourth biggest ethnic group.Consequently there is a total lack of arguements for the presence of nationalist material.This article is intended to inform about the economic, politcal, historical, cultural and demographical specifics of the region, not to impose a certain viewpoint.-- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 14:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
-- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 09:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Please refrain from removing relevant information, even if the information is not to your liking. Two times in the last 24 hours, User:Pensionero has removed information about the ethnic composition of Blagoevgrad Province, more precisely by removing the entry about ethnic Macedonians (and grouping them into "others"). For people who are mainly using Wikipedia to get information (and not to promote their own ideas), this kind of information is definitely relevant. The argument "in any other Bulgarian province in ethnic groups of the minorities are showed only turks and roma" is not valid for several reasons. 1: It is not true, since even more detailed information is given for Varna (Armenians, Russians and several others). 2: Even if it was true, that would not be a reason for not mentioning it here, as long as it is relevant information. 3: It is especially relevant to mention the ethnic Macedonians in this context, since the province of Blagoevgrad is in part coinciding with what is called Pirin Macedonia, and it is therefore of interest to see how many (or how few) there are who self-identify as ethnic Macedonians. 4: As the source will show, the ethnic Macedonians in Blagoevgrad Province are the largest percentage of other ethnic groups than Bulgarians, Turks and Roma in any of the provinces of Bulgaria. And lastly: Please use the Talk page for discussions. This talk page has not been used for a long time. It is better to resolve disagreements here than to make endless edit wars - better for the ordinary user of Wikipedia, that is. Regards 79.160.40.10 ( talk) 19:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Blagoevgrad Province. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:47, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Blagoevgrad Province. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:11, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Blagoevgrad Province. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://censusresults.nsi.bg/Reports/2/2/R1.aspx?OBL=BLG{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.bnr.bg/RadioBulgaria/Emission_Bulgarian/Theme_Muzika/Material/mac.htm{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://censusresults.nsi.bg/Reports/2/2/R9.aspx?OBL=BLG{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.rilanationalpark.org/bg/index.phtmlWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
Hello VMORO. There are some issues with the content you recently introduced in the Ethnic groups sub-section. The content in the first paragraph appears to be mostly off topic. The topic of the article is definitely the Blagoevgrad Province, not what most Slavs had identified as in the region of Macedonia. The claim that the UMO Ilinden-Pirin is separatist and foreign-funded is not reliably sourced. It requires better sourcing than Bulgarian media sources and VMRO-BND claims. There also isn't adequate sourcing for the claim that the then Republic of Macedonia consistently made claims against the Bulgarian population, but it's true that this was happening during VMRO-DPMNE's rule. However, on Wikipedia we cannot introduce content just because we know it to be true, we have to provide reliable sources too. It also needs to be within the scope of the article. Content about what was happening in the Blagoevgrad Province during the communist period could be added in the "History" section, but within scope and with due weight. It's not really due to include much content about a pretty tiny part of Bulgaria's population, as some have already pointed out here. Also, I'm wondering if Stojko Stojkov's claim (while not new content) is really necessary here. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 22:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There was a move request to "Oblast", but a small majority was opposed. R adiant _>|< 00:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Discussion at Talk:Oblasts of Bulgaria==Removal of dear all== This article below is without any connection to the article.We are not talking about the macedonian issue but for the Blagoevgrad province.It is too long and not to the point.It contains personal and biased views,not supported with facts.I think that removing my articles is vandalism!!!
I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia. I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts. Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia. This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia? Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs. Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia? If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!! Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess. But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it? Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians. Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family. How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there? Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito. Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country. Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians). Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled). Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors). Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians. If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed. Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims. Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web. There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia. The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia is@on.net.mk
I AGREE 100% with Igor!! Have a look at this page:
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov1.html
And its a Canadian page, not Macedonian!
Arnegjor 11:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Wikipedia calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Wikipedia) have the exclusive right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people. In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Wikipedia claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Wikipedia claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Wikipedia does NOW). Then, Wikipedia claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town. Wikipedia says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Wikipedia claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Wikipedia says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?... A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Wikipedia completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time. Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Wikipedia says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case? Wikipedia later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free. Wikipedia even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.
On some places Wikipedia says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.
On the other hand, Wikipedia says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS??? BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.
In this case, Wikipedia is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites. I am a living prove of the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change. How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?
Senceirly, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia
JUST SEARCH THE WEB, YOU CAN SEE HOW WRONG WIKIPEDIA IS!!! ONLY THE PRO-BULGARIAN AND PRO-GREEK SITES HAVE THE SAME CLAIMS AS WIKIPEDIA. MOST OF THEM ARE ONLY CLAIMS THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY FALSIFICATED LETTERS. The TURKISH WERE SUPERIOR AT THAT TIME AND ARE A NEUTRAL SIDE. AND FAR BIGGER PART OF THEM IDENTIFY THE MACEDONIANS AS SEPARATE NATION, MACEDONIANS. WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL??? I DO NOT THINK SO!!!
You know, Wikipedia has nothing to do with this, there's no corporation or entreprise called "Wikipedia". The only persons writing articles here are members like you and I. If it appears as though the pro-Greek and pro-Bulgarian sides are shown a lot more than the pro-Macedonian one, that's probably because there's more Bulgarians and Greeks out there writing and editing the articles. In that case it is your job and that of the other Macedonians to balance it out. User:Red Star
By the way, do you expect people to read all of your rant? It's 10 times longer than the article!
WHY DO YOU ONLY USE PRO-GREEK AND PRO-BULGARIAN SOURCES AND NOT NEUTRAL ONES? CHECK THIS:
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov1.html
Arnegjor 11:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand why you rant here - use the macedonia discussion page instead. If you feel macedonian - this is fine with me, but what is the connection with Blagoevgrad Province? Peace
In fact OMO Ilinden - Pirin isn't political party but a small group of enthusiasts of yugoslav macedonian ethnic idea. It isn't registered and probably it never will be registered because of too small number of supporters. According to 2001 census there are only 3 117 ethnic Macedonians in the district.
'OMO Ilinden - Pirin has 4, 500 - 5, 000 members, and most of them (99%) say, they are ethnic Macedonians! And, as it happens, they have families who also (as it happens - again!) claim to be of Macedonian ethnic origin!
And, this is well known fact(for everybody except the Bulgarians themselves!!!): Pirin Macedonia has always been Macedonian! Do not believe? Just face the truth: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianMinorities/images/eurominority.jpg
I removed the link below
from the main article and pit it here, in the discussion, because this map represents wrong data about demography of Blagoevgrad region and besides that the link leads to macedonian nationalistic site History of Macedonia, which exposes only the macedonian hypertrophic point of view. I offer you a strong evidence about lies, which traditionally come from Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia, about the existence of large macedonian ethnic minority in southwest Bulgaria. This is an excerpt from the sentence of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg from the cases of OMO Ilinden and OMO Ilinden PIRIN Against Bulgaria (20.10.2005):
"Moreover, there was no indication that the applicant party had any real chance of bringing about political changes which would not meet with the approval of everyone on the political stage. Indeed, it was recognised that the public influence of the applicant party was negligible. It therefore appeared that the constitutional court’s holding that the applicant party’s activity truly “imperil[ed] [Bulgaria’s] national security” was not based on an acceptable assessment of the relevant facts."
The source of that text is the site of OMO Pirin: Macedonian Minority Organizations, OMO Ilinden and OMO Ilinden PIRIN, Win Landmark European Court of Human Rights Cases Against Bulgaria
In the similar case, sentenced on 19 january 2006, the court stated that there are only over 3 000 supporters of the macedonian ethnic movement in this region and, still more, not all of them were active. As it is obvious, there isn't any large macedonian ethnic minority in Blagoevgrad province and there aren't any significant ethnic macedonian organisations in Bulgaria. And, of course, it is logical - after last bulgarian census there are only 3 117 ethnic Macedonians in the district. As a conclusion I beg the macedonian nationalists from Former Yugoslavian Repubilc of Macedonia to stop their interference in the demography data in that article.
Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I cannot imagine where you will come across Blagoevgrad Province as Pirin Macedonia. This is not Greece with a province of Macedonia that is referred to as such by the European Union. This is Bulgaria and Sofia has not presented any 'Pirin Macedonia' region of province to the EU. So we have to accept that it is the wishful thinking of Skopje dreamers. I have no problem with that but this is not the place to dream, but to present facts. Makedonija 12:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Todor, you have just proved my point, IMRO! talks about Pirin Macedonia and we know what they want. But most Bulgarians have no idea what Pirin Macedonia means. Perhaps you disagree but there are no statistics either way. But that is not the main issue. The real situation why this has to be removed is because there are no official documents in Bulgaria, Europe or UN with that 'province' and there are no maps with that name (and please do not tell me you found one or two in Skopje or IMRO offices). So how can we justify placing 'Pirin Macedonia' up in the first paragraph? If there are some Greeks who, because of 'Nevrokop' and 'Melenikio' and a few other villages where Greek used to live, might call it 'Greek Macedonia', do we have to mention that as well? You bet no! I do not find the name 'Western Bulgaria' offensive for Republic of Macedonia and many Bulgarian call it like that. So I hope you will agree to include 'Western Bulgaria' in Republic of Macedonia and I will agree to keep Pirin Macedonia. Makedonija 14:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Bulgaria is facing many problems to join the EU. But look at Albania and Moldova, they are economically and socially much worse off and they are like republic of macedonia. It is not because of the Greeks that they are not in. You think Skopje was worried about economic blockade? They are still refusing to link up the rail link with Bulgaria!!! It is only 14 kilometers to complete, Bulgarians say yes but they say no. Makedonija 14:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I have not seen official documents from EU presenting the name isse. All the objections concentrate on other issues (R Moldova has candidate status? but the country is divided into two like republic of macedonia between east and west) Makedonija 14:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know [2] but thank you. There only one mention about the effects of the name: "Relations with Greece have improved in the last few years. Greece is the most important investor in the country (57% of the total foreign investments) and trade has been constantly increasing. However the dispute over the name of the country has remained an open issue since 1993." So it is an open issue - that is all, together with the open issue with claiming Blagoevgrad Province but Bulgaria is not in the EU and so this does not get mentioned. Makedonija 15:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Size is not important. Of course they can claim whatever they want. But they are also pushing their irredentist talk everywhere like here in Wikipedia. Size does not matter to cause chaos. There are many crazy people who think they have god on their side or that they are suffering because of crazy thinking about historical injustice and then they build an ideology that says you are allowed to do anything against other people. I think these people of republic of macedonia already have a machinery to cause harm like their extremists did in the war against the Albanians. It is our duty to expose them because we want to build roads and communications and cooperation and we do not want to build dangerous differences. Makedonija 15:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I was threaten by Todor Bozhinov:
"3RR You've violated the three-revert rule on Pirin Macedonia. I'm not sure you're familiar with it and I'm not going to report you for now (you haven't been warned), but if you revert once more you'll very likely be reported and blocked.
By the way, I don't see what's the problem with my version — many people find the name exactly offensive — you fall in the other category, so it's just a matter of how people see it today. Recent Macedonistic propaganda has played a role in this resentment against the name by some Bulgarians, no doubt about it. Todor→Bozhinov 13:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)"
The reason is the next Todor Bozhinov's note:
"The name 'Pirin Macedonia' is regarded as offensive by many Bulgarians, who assert that it is widely used by Macedonists as part of the irredentist concept of United Macedonia. However, many people in the country also think of the name as a purely geographical term, which it has historically been. Its use is, thus, controversial."
Dear Todor Bozhinov, for me your redaction is neither true nor acceptable and yes, I doubt about it. Don't you think you should prove that for MANY Bulgarians the name Pirin Macedonia is offensive? Please give to the readers and authors of the Wikipedia reliable arguments for that assertion.
85.187.163.40 and TodorBozhinov seem to be involved in an edit war on the inclusion of an image illustrating the Battle of Kleidion. As this battle took place within present-day Blagoevgrad Province, it is related to the subject, but it is not yet related to the content of the article. I propose to include the picture on the condition that 85.187.163.40 (or someone else) also writes a short history section that the image can relate to. Preslav 13:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Please, explain me, are there any really disputable points in this section:
Pirin Macedonia
![]() |
The region is regarded by many of the people living in the Republic of Macedonia as part of an irredentist imaginary state that unites the whole geographical region of Macedonia.
However, these claims are due to the long period of propaganda-like history in the Republic Macedonia.
Today the idea of “united” Macedonia is part of the doctrines only of extremely right-orientated parties and organizations in the Republic of Macedonia. Only a negligible 3,117 of the province's population of 341,245 described themselves as ethnic Macedonians in 2001, Bulgarians being an overwhelming majority of 286,491.
This low number of ethnic Macedonians in the region is explained by supporters of Macedonism as being a result of repression. They also assert that the number of Macedonians in the province was much larger as recorded by the 1948 and 1956 censuses, claiming that then- Stalinist Bulgaria recognised a distinct Macedonian minority and allowed free self-determination (and implying this is not the case today). This is explained by Bulgarians as being part of the Comintern's and the Bulgarian Communist Party's policy of the time, which supported a USSR-backed admission of Bulgaria to Yugoslavia with the corresponding incorporation of Pirin Macedonia into the Macedonian Socialist Republic. With the easing of this trend the idea of promoting a separate national consciousness in Pirin Macedonia lost support.
I think this passage is relatively well sourced with many links to other articles. I can't see any flagrantly inadequate information. Best wishes,
Jackanapes 01:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
P. s. I just have read the dispute between Todor Bozhinov and Dan Carkner in their personal talk pages. Maybe it will be better for all of us to continue the discussion here. Jackanapes 02:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I do think that the section could cause many Macedonians (citizens of the republic) to see red because of the way it is phrased; in fact I'm supprised it hasn't been vandalised by anonymous editors with Macedonian IP-addresses yet (-:. It should be rewritten without using the words "imaginary", "propaganda-like", "doctrines", "extremely", "negligible" and "overwhelming", because these words are emotional. "irredentist" may cause offense because many don't know what it means and a fanatic Macedonist may interpret it as negative without consulting the article about it.
Preslav 07:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
You all know deep in your soles that you are Bulgarians. The serbs made you "Macedonians" after they failed to make you serbs. I think that Macedonia should finnaly join Bulgaria. It is better for you, not for us.-- Gligan 19:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
According to Stoyko Stoykov, one of the leaders of the non-registered ethnic Macedonian political party OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN (abbreviation of United Macedonian Organization "Ilinden" - Party for Economic Development and Integration of the population), the present number of the ethnic Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia is between 5,000 and 10,000:
Source. - Jackanapes 02:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Pirin Macedonia is term which point to the one of the parts of ethnic Macedonia. It is different term then Blagoevgrad Province in Republic of Bulgaria. By the current teritorial subdivisions, Blagoevgrad Province spread almost to the same teritory as Pirin Macedonia. -- Brest 08:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC) (copied from Talk:Pirin Macedonia by Preslav 10:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC))
Politis, the name Pirin Macedonia has its Bulgarian tradition. Some examples. Ivan Mihailov's "Memoirs", volume 2, part 2, chapter 13 "The situation in Pirin Macedonia. Auxuliary IMRO"; volume 3, part 3, chapter 17 about the "Petrich incident" in 1925 - the name "Pirin Macedonia" is used; volume 4, chapter 4, named exactly "The situation in Pirin Macedonia". Again Ivan Mihailov's book, "On the thorny road of the Macedonian liberating deed" from 1939, chapter 6 concerns the usage of the name "Macedonia" after the coup in Bulgaria in 1934. Contemporary Bulgarian academic example: "Macedonia. History and political destiny" in 3 volumes, collective of historians, Sofia, 1998, volumes 2 and 3 - "Pirin Macedonia" is widely used. - Jackanapes 18:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok no problem, I will leave it as it is. Also, as far as I can tell the term was first introduced in the 1920 or 1930s. Will check out my sources. Politis 19:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
can remove the automatic redirect when you search 'pirin macedonians'. there is an actual article pirin macedonians P m kocovski ( talk) 21:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Since less than 1% of the population in the municipality declares Macedonian ethnic self-determination there is absolutely no reason this group of people to be mentioned in a separate paragraph.Sorry to disappoint the Macedonists but there are 2 bigger minorities than the so called Macedonian, so mentioning the presence of Macedonians and their number is more than enough.Furthermore, even to the boldest estimates of the leader of the OMO, the people calling themselves Macedonians are between 1.5% and 3%. -- BulgarianPatriot ( talk)
Once again, please stop reverting "information" which is obviously biased and doesn`t correspond to the requirement for NPOW.If you want to add something about the people with Macedonian national sense then do it in "Demographics".The previous version was imposing ideology of Macedonism which obviously is accepted by a very small share of the residents.Furthermore, this region is one of the biggest educational centers in Bulgaria and there are many foreign students, including from Vardar Macedonia which means that the number of the people who were born in Bulgaria is even smaller.Whether you like it or not, it`s from no importance.Just add once again the propagandist text and I`ll contact the admins or probably I should add very detailed information in the article for every single Macedonian municipality about the number of the people who applied for BG citizenship and signed declaration for Bulgarian self-identity. -- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 07:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, for a 3rd and let`s hope last time- Why do you keep reverting the Macedonist propaganda?There is a separate article for the so called Macedonians in Bulgaria and there is absolutely no need to copy the whole text.This article concerns the Blagoevgrad region itself, not the attempts of some people to build their nation.Those who express ethnic self-determination as the citizens of the Former Jugoslav Republic of Macedonia are less than 1% of the total population and represent neither the first, nor the second, nor the third but the fourth biggest ethnic group.Consequently there is a total lack of arguements for the presence of nationalist material.This article is intended to inform about the economic, politcal, historical, cultural and demographical specifics of the region, not to impose a certain viewpoint.-- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 14:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
-- BulgarianPatriot ( talk) 09:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Please refrain from removing relevant information, even if the information is not to your liking. Two times in the last 24 hours, User:Pensionero has removed information about the ethnic composition of Blagoevgrad Province, more precisely by removing the entry about ethnic Macedonians (and grouping them into "others"). For people who are mainly using Wikipedia to get information (and not to promote their own ideas), this kind of information is definitely relevant. The argument "in any other Bulgarian province in ethnic groups of the minorities are showed only turks and roma" is not valid for several reasons. 1: It is not true, since even more detailed information is given for Varna (Armenians, Russians and several others). 2: Even if it was true, that would not be a reason for not mentioning it here, as long as it is relevant information. 3: It is especially relevant to mention the ethnic Macedonians in this context, since the province of Blagoevgrad is in part coinciding with what is called Pirin Macedonia, and it is therefore of interest to see how many (or how few) there are who self-identify as ethnic Macedonians. 4: As the source will show, the ethnic Macedonians in Blagoevgrad Province are the largest percentage of other ethnic groups than Bulgarians, Turks and Roma in any of the provinces of Bulgaria. And lastly: Please use the Talk page for discussions. This talk page has not been used for a long time. It is better to resolve disagreements here than to make endless edit wars - better for the ordinary user of Wikipedia, that is. Regards 79.160.40.10 ( talk) 19:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Blagoevgrad Province. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:47, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Blagoevgrad Province. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:11, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Blagoevgrad Province. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://censusresults.nsi.bg/Reports/2/2/R1.aspx?OBL=BLG{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.bnr.bg/RadioBulgaria/Emission_Bulgarian/Theme_Muzika/Material/mac.htm{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://censusresults.nsi.bg/Reports/2/2/R9.aspx?OBL=BLG{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.rilanationalpark.org/bg/index.phtmlWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
Hello VMORO. There are some issues with the content you recently introduced in the Ethnic groups sub-section. The content in the first paragraph appears to be mostly off topic. The topic of the article is definitely the Blagoevgrad Province, not what most Slavs had identified as in the region of Macedonia. The claim that the UMO Ilinden-Pirin is separatist and foreign-funded is not reliably sourced. It requires better sourcing than Bulgarian media sources and VMRO-BND claims. There also isn't adequate sourcing for the claim that the then Republic of Macedonia consistently made claims against the Bulgarian population, but it's true that this was happening during VMRO-DPMNE's rule. However, on Wikipedia we cannot introduce content just because we know it to be true, we have to provide reliable sources too. It also needs to be within the scope of the article. Content about what was happening in the Blagoevgrad Province during the communist period could be added in the "History" section, but within scope and with due weight. It's not really due to include much content about a pretty tiny part of Bulgaria's population, as some have already pointed out here. Also, I'm wondering if Stojko Stojkov's claim (while not new content) is really necessary here. StephenMacky1 ( talk) 22:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)