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Right now there is a ridiculous disambiguation page. No one is searching for "Blackwater" as a geographical location. If they are, let them go to the disambiguation page. As it is, looking through that long list to find "Blackwater USA" is going to discourage those who don't know much about what is going on, and so may not have the time or even saavy to scan through such a long list. This seems fair.
Previous edits of the Criticism section included Jeremy Scahill's book, Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army (ISBN: 1560259795) . That reference has disappeared. What is up with that? HC21:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I strongly agree. The section on Scahill needs to be much more significant. Links need to be made to DemocracyNow.org, an easy search of the archives under Blackwater or Scahill should do. This is important, especially given any attempt to scrub this site of references to one of the group's strongest and most articulate critics (As mentioned below, "With your "contributions" to this article from your corporate IP range, you're currently NUMBER THREE on the list of Most Shameful Wikipedia Spin Jobs!"). Surely any reasonable person would grant the significance of his criticism, whatever your opinion. The greatest threat to the issue is that it be taken as a non-issue. Now who would want to see that happen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.121.73 ( talk) 01:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
A Mercenary is - Concerning a legal definition of mercenary, the Special Rapporteur's interim report to the General Assembly (A/55/334) provides information on, inter alia: mercenary. The report notes that the currently accepted meaning or use of the term primarily focusses on professional services that are paid to recruit soldiers to intervene in an armed conflict in a country other than their own. So before anyone tries to merge "contractors" with "mercenaries" there should be careful discussion on what services that company, who would be lumped into that category, has provided. SCG International Risk, for example, works only for the US Government and private US corporations. Ghostscg 00:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Since the definition of what is a mercenary seems to be in dispute...
→
P.MacUidhir
(t)
(c)
18:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
mercenary, n. and a.
-forms:
-definitions
c1387-95 CHAUCER Canterbury Tales Prol. 514 He [sc. the parson] was a shepherde and noght a mercenarye [v.r. mersenarye]. c1475 (a1449) LYDGATE Minor Poems (1911) I. 167 Pastor callid, nat a mercenarye. ?1548 J. BALE Comedy Thre Lawes Nature III. sig. C8v, We are soch mercenaryes... As from the flock all carryes. 1643 SIR T. BROWNE Relig. Medici I. §52 Mercenaries that crouch unto him in feare of Hell..are indeed but slaves of the Almighty. 1805 H. TOOKE Diversions of Purley II. 3 Punish the wickedness of those mercenaries who utter such atrocities. 1806 J. LINGARD Antiq. Anglo-Saxon Church II. xi. 258 The monastic institute was condemned, as calculated only for mercenaries and slaves. 1982 N.Y. Times (Nexis) 11 July II. 15 Mr Lucas's original intention was to ‘do the first one [sc. Star Wars film] and then be a real mercenary and turn it over to someone like Fox and take a big percentage of the gross’. 1998 Mirror (Nexis) 18 Dec. 49 When Everton came in for me two seasons ago, West Ham were in relegation trouble. If I'd been a real mercenary, I'd have cleared off and left them to it.
1523 LD. BERNERS tr. J. Froissart Chron. I. ccv. 242 The Almaygnes, and mercenaryes of strange countreis. 1583 P. STUBBES Anat. Abuses II. sig. K7, The reading ministers after they be hired of the parishes (for they are mercenaries). 1638 G. SANDYS Paraphr. Job vii. 10 He a poore mercenary serves for bread. 1687 DRYDEN Hind & Panther II. 49 Like mercenary's, hir'd for home defence, They will not serve against their native Prince. 1776 T. JEFFERSON Wks. (1859) I. 23 He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries. 1840 R. BROWNING Sordello IV. 51 Lean silent gangs of mercenaries ceased Working to watch the strangers. 1849 G. GROTE Hist. Greece VII. II. lx. 438 Greeks continental and insular..volunteers and mercenaries..were all here to be found. 1913 G. EDMUNDSON Church Rome First Cent. vi. 169 The storming and burning of the Capitol by the foreign mercenaries of Vitellius. 1974 F. FORSYTH Dogs of War (1975) I. iv. 86 So for the last six years he had lived as a mercenary, often an outlaw, at best regarded as a soldier for hire, at worst a paid killer.
1861 J. PYCROFT Ways & Words 285 Literary mercenaries, ready to serve under friend or foe. 1987 E. PRAGER Clea & Zeus Divorce (1988) v. 26 They wore their camouflage fatigues..and heavy boots and berets, like the show biz mercenaries they were.
1532 T. MORE Confut. Tyndale in Wks. 507/2 A mercennary preacher and an hired, which seketh his own temporal aduauntage & commoditie. 1600 SHAKESPEARE Merch. V. IV. i. 415 And I deliuering you, am satisfied, and therein doe account my selfe well payd, my minde was neuer yet more mercinarie. 1616 SIR R. DUDLEY in Fortescue Papers (Camden) 17 And that, whether you move this suite or noe, for I am not mercenarie. 1762 O. GOLDSMITH Citizen of World I. 45 Such wretches are kept in pay by some mercenary bookseller. 1843 Ainsworth's Mag. 4 308 Upon the ‘balance’,..women are quite as mercenary as men. 1865 DICKENS Our Mutual Friend II. III. iv. 31 Haven't I told you what a mercenary little wretch I am? 1955 A. WEST Heritage ii. 38, I should be put in a school where I would neither be exposed, nor tempted to expose myself, to the activities of mercenary and unscrupulous journalists. 1997 Dallas Morning News (Nexis) 20 Dec. 1A, Mr. Greene said he's heard skeptical comments that JPI only gave the city the property because it benefited from the deal. ‘They're not a mercenary organization.’
1532 T. MORE Confut. Tyndale in Wks. 362/2 They holde that it is not lawfull to loue..God..for obteining of reward, calling this maner of loue..seruile bonde and mercennary. 1619 H. HUTTON Follie's Anat. sig. A5v, Value my verse according to her worth: No mercenary hope hath brought her forth. 1690 W. TEMPLE Misc. II. i. 68 Learning has been so little advanced since it grew to be mercenary. 1711 LD. SHAFTESBURY Characteristicks (1737) I. II. iii. 97 They have made Virtue so mercenary a thing, and have talk'd so much of its Rewards. 1781 W. COWPER Hope 333 His soul abhors a mercenary thought, And him as deeply who abhors it not. 1837 H. MARTINEAU Society in Amer. III. 128 The disgusting spectacle of mercenary marriages. 1861 DICKENS Let. 6 Nov. (1938) III. 251 They are all old servants,..and..are under the strongest injunction to avoid any approach to mercenary dealing. 1890 H. JAMES Tragic Muse I. xiii. 273, I might improve my fortune by some other means than by making a mercenary marriage. 1913 T. HARDY Changed Man 275 No man when he first becomes interested in a woman has any definite scheme of engagement to marry her in his mind, unless he is meaning a vulgar mercenary marriage. 1971 I. MURDOCH Accidental Man 150 We are glad to know that you did not learn of the young lady's fortune before you courted her, though we are in any case aware that you are above any mercenary motive. 1990 G. ROBERTSON Media Law 17 The law of England is indeed,..a law of liberty; but the freedoms it recognises do not include a licence for the mercenary betrayal of business confidences.
1569 T. STOCKER tr. Diodorus Siculus' Hist. Successors Alexander 105 Aboute two thousand Mercenarie Grekes, and so many Thracians. 1589 R. GREENE Ciceronis Amor 52 A simple sheepeharde who as a Mercinarie man kept sheepe for Vatinius. 1590 J. SMYTHE Certain Disc. Weapons 49b, They..began..to go ouer to serue as mercenarie soldiers in the Low Countries. 1611 T. CORYATE Crudities I. 171 Of these Gondolaes..sixe thousand are priuate..and foure thousand for mercenary men, which get their liuing by the trade of rowing. 1640 I. WALTON Life of Donne in J. Donne 80 Serm. A6 He continued that employment.., being daily usefull (and not mercenary) to his friends. 1795 W. SEWARD Anecd. (1796) III. 382 Lord Chatham was obliged to call in to its aid the mercenary troops of other Nations: these..he subsidised with a liberal..hand. 1830 LADY MORGAN France 1829-30 I. 502 For what purpose is all this apparatus of tyranny..the jail, the gibbet, the mercenary army, [etc.]{em}to obtain the power of doing evil. 1871 E. A. FREEMAN Hist. Norman Conquest IV. xviii. 233 William at this time dismissed the mercenary part of his army. 1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 31/2 Abd-ar-rahman subdued the nobles by means of a mercenary army, which included Christians. 1974 J. PHILIPS Power Killers (1975) I. i. 9 There is a well organized..terror group that involves mercenary killers all over the world.
1656 T. STANLEY Hist. Philos. (new ed.) VI. xv. 27 He shut up his poor shop, and gave over his mercenary profession. a1684 J. EVELYN Diary anno 1664 (1955) III. 369, I saw acted the Indian Queene a Tragedie..so beautified with rich Scenes as the like had never ben seene..on a mercenarie Theater. 1726 J. AYLIFFE Parergon 319 Such Things..the Judge may despatch by his mercenary Office. 1782 T. PENNANT Journey Chester to London 96 These livings at that time were good rectories; now poor vicarages, or mercenary curacies, annexed to the bishoprick.
a1616 SHAKESPEARE Hen. V (1623) IV. vii. 74 Many of our Princes..Lye drown'd and soak'd in mercenary blood. 1735 J. THOMSON Liberty II. 38 To spill Their Country's bravest blood, and on themselves To turn their matchless mercenary Arms. 1758 J. HOME Agis II. i. 22 Tell..Rhesus, if he loves bright arms..No more to wield a mercenary sword, But plant himself with thee in Sparta's soil. 1922 A. E. HOUSMAN in Oxf. Bk. 20th Cent. Eng. Verse (1973) 48 These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling And took their wages and are dead.
An article at "Backwater training centre" was being prodded; I removed the PROD and redirected it here. The content doesn't seem to be completely redundant, so I'm reproducing it here:
-- maru (talk) contribs 06:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone managed to claim that Bethesda Softworks stooped so low as to include contemporary political satire in their fantasy game Oblivion. In this game, there is a mercenary company named the Blackwood Company which pursue unethical acts. What the author failed to realise, is that the company is named after the region in the game in which they base their operations, the Blackwood forest. The fictional world of this forest precedes Blackwater USA by three years. Joffeloff 23:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
The Blackwater organisation is also named after a geographic trait in the region (Blackwater Creek), the symbol the company uses is also used because there are a number of Black Bears on the property. (Bears paw in the crosshairs.) Izzy1985 23:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
the Line: Blackwater USA consists of five companies: is followed by six lines of "subcompanies"... whats right? 5 or 6? -- 87.193.35.4 18:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Not sure what date should be used for when blackwater was found: the company website uses 1996 as the genesis of the operation, as did the Wikipedia page prior to my edit. During the congressional hearing over Reconstruction is Iraq on Wednesday, the 7th of February, the General Council for Blackwater said the company was founded in 1997. No real concensus on what year to use for foundation. BarabasKid 20:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
On a broadcast of Democracy Now, they mentioned that the founders of Blackwater were big contributors to Bush/ Cheney's election campaign. Do you think this is worth putting in the article? -- Jml4000 23:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Aelffin. Perhaps the best place to note the contributions to Republican candidates by Prince and Jackson is under the section dealing with personnel, where their names are mentioned. The extant connections between the current government administration and this company through personnel exchanges are further justification for acknowledging a publicly-alleged conflict of interest--i.e. current vice president, Cofer Black, is the former coordinator for counterterrorism at the State Department and former director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, and Joseph Schmitz, current COO of the Prince Group, Blackwater's parent company, was previously the Pentagon's Inspector General. There should be some acknowledgment of these relationships. Mcwabaunsee 20:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
If conflict of interest is mentioned, it seems to be part of the corporate culture. Cofer Black is now counterterrorism advisor on the Romney campaign staff. ----Rawkcuf.
With your "contributions" to this article from your corporate IP range, you're currently NUMBER THREE on the list of Most Shameful Wikipedia Spin Jobs!
Blackwater's creative history of what happended in Al Najaf, Iraq in April 2004 is interesting but not completely true. As an eyewitness of the events that transpired in April 2004 in Al Najaf, here is the rest of the story: A team of Marines from 4th ANGLICO, attached to MND-CS, arrived on Al Ándalus to assist in repelling the attack by Al Sadr's Militia which lasted almost the entire month of April. The ANGLICO Marines were also joined by SSgt Allen Truesdale who was attached to a unit training the ICDC (Iraqi Civil Defense Corps). Upon their arrival at the base, the ANGLICO Marines exposed themselves to enemy fire while establishing a communication plan with the Spanish headquarters, the CPA headquarters, and an element from the MND headquarters. The ANGLICO Marines (SSgt Derrick Leath, Sgt Justin Foley, Sgt Luis Hernandez, Sgt Halain Suarez, Cpl Jeff Dusch, and Cpl Fahim Mortazavi) and SSgt Truesdale established an obervation post to maintain a view of the surrounding area and began coordinating Close Air Support to include Apaches, F-14s, F-18s, Hueys, etc. While directing aircraft to areas of interest the Marines receivied incoming enemy fire from Al Sadr Hospital which was a taller building on the perimeter of the base.
The Marines changed observation posts on several occasions to gain the best vantage point of the battlefield. After several days of no sleep, the ANGLICO team worked twenty-four hour operations with a two man watch. During this time, the ANGLICO team controlled a C-130 Gunship, Slayer 75, onto a vehicle after their position was attacked with RPG fire. Additionally, the ANGLICO Marines cleared the delivery of a 500lb bomb, with no collateral damage, on a building killing several combatants while. The ANGLICO team also directed the Spanish sniper team on the engagement of enemy combatants and controlled over twenty CAS missions.
It is curious, that Blackwater would leave out such an important factor in the April, 2004 defense of Najaf. Maybe it was because one of their own spray painted the ANGLICO vehicle and received the beat down of his life for showing such disrespect to a team of Marines who had been fighting along side of them for weeks.
SSgt Derrick Leath and SSgt Allen Truesdale won a Bronze Star with "V", Sgt Foley and Sgt Suarez won a Navy Commendation Medal with "V", and Sgt Hernandez, Cpl Dusch, and Cpl Mortazavi earned a Navy Achievement Medal with "V" for their actions in defending the garrison. The statement that "the U.S. military had declared the city unsafe and would not risk inserting U.S. troops" is a lie. I was there and witnessed the bravery of these Marines who have more than earned the right to be recognized as they lived up to the traditions set by Marines before them and weren't earning six figures doing their job. source: http://anglico.net/news_040929.php G8rlawdog 13:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I am pretty sure that the border jail paragraph (currently the last paragraph in Controversy and Critisms) is not true, but I can't prove that. Is there anything to back that up? Tmaull 17:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Most of the History and Controversy sections of this article are dedicated to information concerning the current Iraq war. It seems like a good idea to establish a separate section dealing with the role Blackwater plays in Iraq (how many employees, what kinds of missions, etc.) and criticism concerning this role (lawsuits, company's response to employee deaths in Iraq, etc.). Or, if the information about Blackwater's activities elsewhere, in Azerbaijan, for example, can be expanded, then a section pertaining to Iraq could fall under that larger category. Mcwabaunsee 20:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Under the "Iraq Involvement" section there is a dramatic passage concerning Blackwater's defense of the U.S. base in Najaf. The section should be rewritten more objectively. In addition to that, information concerning other incidents of Blackwater misconduct (in addition to the one already discussed), legal battles, the number of Blackwater employees in Iraq, and the extent of government funding, should also be included. Mcwabaunsee 21:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone geo coordinates? I would like to check if there is anything visible on google earth... sounds interessting. -- Nemissimo 10:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I think we should avoid including current events in an article summary. I know people are desperately eager to be the first to add breaking news to an article, but it's going to look ridiculous in a couple of years time when this information is still in the article summary even though by then it'll just be distant blip in the company's history.
Also, if 20 more things happen to the country in the next couple of years, are we supposed to put ALL this info in the article summary? If so, why bother having the summary at all if it's just becoming longer and longer?
I'm removing this information from the article summary for now because it looks ridiculous. 195.99.220.2 17:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The WP:LEAD is generally a summary of the article that follows - all of it. If the coverage of recent events is considerable, it warrants at least cursory mention in the lead. MrZaius talk 14:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there enough to fork that off, yet, into it's own article? • Lawrence Cohen 23:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
During a Govt. House oversight committee session headed up by Waxman Oct. 2nd, 20007, the question was directly asked to the CEO of Blackwater, who manages a smattering of personell compared to General Petraus' thousands, what his salary is compared to the General. According to the CEO himself, he is being paid (via American taxpayers) around 9 to 10 times what the General is paid although he manages a paltry fraction of people. Also, estimated profits were mentioned as well... mulitple millions of dollars? Of course, the CEO who laughably claimed during the hearing that he "doesn't care" about money said he didn't know what the specific profits were of his company and said since Blackwater is a privately held company they didn't feel the need to let the American people know what their profits were anyway. Basically, he admitted Blackwater is a rogue, anti-American taxmoney-sucking entity. I think the least we can do for those seeking facts on Wikipeida is mention estimated Blackwater profits, salaries, etc. that are being paid by the American taxpayer. It's the right thing to do.... and THAT'S how it is. Sorry, I'm a bit furious right now when the traitors to our country are called "heros". Real heros don't milk American taxpayers, real heros don't run, scurry and hide when light is shown upon them. Real heros fight for America, not profit. ($*&$&ing bastards. Cowicide 07:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I've nominated these articles for In The News on the front page of Wikipedia, and it appears to have some support. • Lawrence Cohen 21:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Featured on Wikipedia ITN on front page, 10/3/07, expect some vandalism... • Lawrence Cohen 23:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Prince Group currently redirects here, but isn't mentioned at all in the article. My understanding is that Prince Group predates Blackwater USA, though, being founded by Erik Prince's father as an automotive company, so perhaps it should have a separate article. It seems the automotive part has since been sold off, but Prince Manufacturing still remains one of the Group's major holdings besides Blackwater. -- Delirium 04:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Unless I'm missing something, both of the Wikinews links are straight to the WN front page, rather than the articles themselves. 138.38.151.17 08:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know the Wikipedia tags for the Current Events template,, but this page is clearly involving current events and will be susceptible to edit wars and arguments with political motivations. I suggest it is locked down or at least noted as current events. 68.1.79.246 20:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the search for a secondary source interpretation of the Geneva convention definition of "mercenary", my recollection is that PW Singer's book Corporate Warriors is good on this point. -- Pleasantville 15:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for rv yourself Nil Einne, the presence of these chilian nationals is i believe very important to the arguement as to if blackwater are mercs. They are mentioned by many sources, what do you want this section to say and why Nil? (Hypnosadist) 15:28, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I've found no mention of sub-contracting to anyone else, would'nt really matter, they are paying for mercs as opposed to hireing them directly in that case. (Hypnosadist) 17:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC) PS can EVERYONE on this page take a chill pill! (Hypnosadist) 17:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I see that someone has added Executive Outcomes to the See also list. EO is much more closely related to BW's competitor Aegis, so I'm not sure this is appropriate. Maybe we need a list of comparable firms? Or is that covered by categories? -- Pleasantville 21:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
On this article, I found an image of their main headquarters. As the building is heavily secured in a 7,000 acre complex with armed guards, and all reports in other sources indicating that photography is disallowed, a free photograph is highly unlikely to be found. Would this then count as fair use? • Lawrence Cohen 21:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I've also asked at WikiProject North Carolina to see if someone can get us an illustrative photo of the entrance to their building at 850 Puddin Ridge Way, for this article. • Lawrence Cohen 21:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
After a US Navy owned IP removed the mercenary tag again, I have re-added it, with five international sources. Google news archive searches, and regular Googling, turn up several dozen more. I suggest that any other removals of this internationally accepted fact be reversed as vandalism. • Lawrence Cohen 18:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
It isn't an "internationally accepted fact" simply because antiwar activists or people opposed to the Bush administration around the world refer to PMCs like Blackwater as mercenaries. There are many other reliable sources which refer to Blackwater with terms other than Mercenary. Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Arkalochori reworded the mercenary usage under NPOV, and that IP from today RV'd it. Let's discuss it here. I think having multiple reliable sources reporting on them as a mercenary organization is sufficient to list them as such, in the lead and in the infobox. While Blackwater doesn't list themselves as mercenaries, they do not get to decide that and their take on it doesn't matter. Thoughts? •
Lawrence Cohen
22:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
That sounds NPOV to me, but the issue I have is that it sounds redundant, since the terms "private military" and "mercenary" are more or less synonymous, IMO. -- Sawyerkaufman 23:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The synonym for "private military" would be "militia", not mercenary. A mercenary is a foreign private military. Walterego Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I just realized it was already redone. Is the current wording alright? • Lawrence Cohen 02:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The terms "security contractor" and "private military contractor" were coined to intentionally muddy the waters. Culturally, Western Civilization has some very strong opinions on the subject of mercenaries. However people have much less strong opinions on bank security guards, and folks the military subcontracts food service to. The terms that are alternatives to "mercenary" tend to be waffle words. -- Pleasantville 12:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Sawyerkaufman that the Americans working for Blackwater aren't mercenaries under the UN conventions, and as well as that Blackwater works in several other countries in which the US isn't a party to the conflict making all their staff there qualify as mercenaries Ticklemygrits 01:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Trying to add the following text, but people keep deleting it claiming it is unsourced. Notice that the two embeded external links point to the sources. What is wrong with it?
Fans of CBS drama series Jericho believe that the fictional company Ravenwood_Security is modeled after Blackwater USA. The theory triggered a heavy discussion about patriotism but the real world connection between the fictional company and Blackwater haven't been disputed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.159.61 ( talk) 19:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Update: The section keeps being removed without proper arguments. I must assume that the moderators do not want Blackwater look bad by being compared to a fictional villain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.159.61 ( talk) 19:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
We should probably have a section for the attorneys & PR firms helping them through their difficulties. See http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5io26XfEe4F4LJr8KxWsRUyjO_SbwD8S34P3O0
What should it be called? Representation? -- Pleasantville 19:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
This is interesting: allegations that the State Dept's Inspector General Howard Krongard has threatened to fire anyone from his office who testify in Henry Waxman's Congressional investigation.
An Uncertain Fate for the Whistleblowers Who Took on State Department's Inspector General by Brian Beutler, Mother Jones, October 5, 2007: "The Blackwater investigation has fueled controversy about military contractors' abuses in Iraq. But it has also raised questions about where government whistleblowers can turn for protection."
See also this letter by Waxman: http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20070918105806.pdf
Where would this fit in to the current article structure? Should it perhaps be added to the section on the Congressional investigation?-- Pleasantville 00:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Pleasantville 10:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I was talking to a marine who was in Iraq (I don't know where), and his patrol witnessed Blackwater employees kill a little girl unprovoked, and the patrol arrested them on the spot. I asked him if it was an isolated incident, and he said "no, they do it all the time" and that these blackwater employees just go unlucky to have done it in the presence of a patrol. I'm sure he was exaggerating with "all the time" and probably meant that they are just known to do it. I know there was a video on the internet of some anonymous security contractors (not sure if they were Blackwater) taking pot-shots at cars on a freeway.
The fact that the marine who told me this was very conservative, of the mindset that "we shouldn't be in Iraq, we should just blow the f'in place up" and isn't the type to make up tall tales, and along with the fact that there was video released I'm inclined to believe there is something to what he said.
I would never add this to the article unless I could get it from a reliable published source. But I figure there has to be something published about it. That video was on the news for a while. Someone had to have investigated it. If a good source explaining the phenemenon could be found I think it would be good to add the info to the article. Brentt 02:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Ooh, that's a good story. I'm going to email it to all my friends! 129.92.250.41
I have seen the video, the security contractors are not taking "pot-shots" at cars, they are firing warning shots to alert cars that they are coming too close to the Blackwater convoy and will be fired on directly if they get any closer. This is not done callously, but to prevent suicide car bomb attackers from detonating next to the convoy. Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This may be true...but as a standard operating procedure the men and women operating under blackwater are liable for war crimes and courtmartials under both united states military codes of conduct and the geneva convention. I'll Tell you one thing, if any black water employees openly admit their alegance to that company in Our Country (USA) I will arrest them on the spot and take them to Abu Garb Myself...not a threat...a promise. Remember this: "Dead Men Learn not from their Mistakes" --THe Hare 8/oct/2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.100.189 ( talk) 08:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Not done callously, you're having a laugh aren't you. I've seen the video too more than one car veers off the road. One even slows down(in my opinion as if the driver has been killed or at least seriously injured) then veers off and hits another car, then the perpetrators have a good laugh about it. If thats not callous I don't know what is. I also wish to add a warning shot IS a pot shot, if live ammunition isn't fired at and stopped by a specific target, it keeps going until it either runs out of momentum and ends up on the ground, hits a solid object and either stops or richochets into something else, "accidentally" hits somebody minding their own business. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.116.201 ( talk) 06:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
The Blackwater USA page seems to be experiencing a high level of vandalism from unregistered users. Should we request that the page be protected for a short period of time? -- Pleasantville 19:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Not unless anyone says something really stupid like " Black tar heroin turns into blackwater when it is made ready for injection." That'd be bad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.244.163.71 ( talk) 17:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance and/or my paranoia, but what the heck is ebird.afis.mil? I can see that most of the links under "External links and references" are to this web site. At the moment these links do not work. (I assume they have worked previously...) As for my paranoia, why should it be necessary to go to an American web server run by the US military to read articles about Blackwater? Can friends of Blackwater in the military be collecting IP addresses for cross-referencing with other IP address sources to maybe profile those who are anti-military? Should I consider hiring a private security service to protect me from the, uh, no that probably isn't a good idea... :-( -- RenniePet 23:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
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I'm really not sure. Cla68 added the first ones here I just found, I had to backtrack quite a ways for that. I'll ask him what is up with that on his talk page. • Lawrence Cohen 06:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Whereas I have, occasionally, accessed some .mil addresses, it seems that they are not always blocked. It seems that one possibility is, if a discrepancy is suspected, employ a machine that is not likely to have ever been registered to whichever website.
Many libraries seem to rinse the caches frequently.
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 14:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I updated Template:BlackwaterUSA a bit just now. Posting here to advertise that--what else would be appropriate for inclusion on the template? • Lawrence Cohen 18:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I've asked for very long term to permanent semi-protection for what is now an ultra high-profile article, given it's subject matter. The request is here, please weigh in with any support. • Lawrence Cohen 19:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
It just struck me that "Personnel" is a funny heading for a section that talks about the top executives. How about Executives, Management or Leadership? Incidentally, Robert Richer is no longer with Blackwater, at least not directly. [1] -- RenniePet 23:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
How many blackwater in Iraq? How many private military contractors total? Are these numbers anywhere?
IIRC, it's on the Iraq War page. Kensai Max 23:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a good idea to add some numbers to the opening section that defines what Blackwater is--i.e. roughly how many people they train per year, and who their major clients are. Mcwabaunsee 15:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Lawrence, the numbers are from a congressional report. I'm pretty sure those are only for Iraq and only for the department of state. No DOD contracts are included. I'll see if I need to clarify that Ticklemygrits 23:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
"Erik Prince's Blackwater suing the families of its slain employees for $10-million ea." -Note- The Daily Kos BLOG is not a Creditable Source or Reference for Citation especially when it itself does not provide a Citation for it's claims.
The following applies both to this article and to Blackwater USA businesses.
Under "External links and references" there is a link to www.blackwaterwatch.com, a site very critical of Blackwater.
In the interest of neutrality shouldn't there also be links to www.blackwaterfacts.com and/or www.blackwaterreporting.com?
I'm not experienced enough with Wikipedia to know what kinds of sites are acceptable as references and what are not, or I'd do it myself. -- RenniePet 22:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I object on the basis that both are anonymous blogs less that 2 months old that look to be part of some PR company's idea of damage control. They are really slight. -- Pleasantville 17:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Given the extent of Blackwater press coverage and the number of press links on the page, I'm not sure that Blackwaterwatch adds much, either. -- Pleasantville 17:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Having a look at 'Blackwaterfacts', they've got a link to this blog that seemed fairly neutral towards them. It's not soley on them but has some interesting stuff [2] Ticklemygrits 10:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
If anybody has the coordiantes for the Blackwater Training ground please put them in the article. Angelbo Talk / Contribs 19:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I think I found it: 850 Puddin Ridge Road in Moyock, North Carolina. This is borne out by observing the Google Map for the openness of the location relevant to the rest of Moyock, which is filled with streets--but that area isn't. I'm sure there are lots of RS mixed into that first Google search for 850 Puddin Ridge Road in Moyock, North Carolina. I don't think I'll have time to pull it out for the coordinates to confirm. • Lawrence Cohen 20:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
This link for county tax records may help turn up additional RS for this information. • Lawrence Cohen 20:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Confirmed RS: State of Virginia department of criminal justice services; Blackwater is at 850 Puddin Ridge Road in Moyock, North Carolina. Ton more to be found here, so that is settled. Another RS at: A Congressional record of a contract Blackwater has with the USA.
Is anyone any good at converting a street address to coordinates for the article, now that we can source this? • Lawrence Cohen 20:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Stability issues aside (which are now fixed by semi-protection, which should be extended when the current one ends next month), and aside from the references being messy and unevenly formatted, this looks really good now. Put it up for a GA review? • Lawrence Cohen 16:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I've thought a bit about my idea of reorganizing the topic structure, and here's my suggestion:
Contents - current structure
1 History
2 Corporate
3 Iraq involvement
4 Litigation
5 Post-Katrina involvement
6 Other employments
7 Controversy and criticism
8 Public relations
9 See also
10 Notes
11 External links and references
Contents - suggested structure
1 History
2 Iraq involvement
3 Non-Iraq operations
4 Litigation, controversy and criticism
5 Corporate
6 See also
7 Notes
8 External links and references
This reduces the number of top-level main topics from 8 to 5 and groups and orders things more logically.
Also, as a general comment, I think the article needs more non-controversial information about exactly what these guys are doing and where and for whom. Facts and figures and historical development, etc. Simple non-critical prose. Although I realize this may be difficult because they are rather tight-mouthed themselves, and most of the public information is about their screw-ups. -- RenniePet 21:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Since the blackwater is under the control of the government, Illuminati, I bet they are going to kill off any anti- illuminatist. Beware, those of you who woke up. Amphitere
The litigation section needs subheads or something distinguishing between cases, and perhaps a little more detail on incidents related to the litigation. It is hard to follow as it stands now because of lack of signposting. -- Pleasantville 12:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Blackwater USA is a company, how is this artical about a current event? i see no need for the tag, Boatman666 00:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
this company was featured on tonight's premier of "K-Ville" as "Blackriver Securities" who worked as assassins in New Orleans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arabianofelix ( talk • contribs) 01:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Not to mention numerous critical articles and news reports, e.g. DemocracyNow.org, Jeremy Scahill, et al. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.121.73 ( talk) 01:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Boatman666. No matter how much it may be related to or involved in current events, Blackwater USA is a company, not an event. If there is a more appropriate tag, maybe that should be used. Kriptyk 03:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I was about to concede defeat on this whole "are they or aren't they mercenaries" issue. But I see from the BBC [4] that they employ (amongst others) "231 third-country nationals ... to protect US state department in Iraq". What's the most military-like work that these "third-country nationals" are doing? If they are employing people, from countries not part of the conflict, to do miltary-type work, the final criteria for a mercenary group would be met. Evercat 02:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
They are mercenaries. If they weren't motivated by money, the Americans amongst them could join the US Army. And everyone agrees the foreigners are mercenaries. I'm not too fussed about it though. Contractor/mercenary, not much difference really both motivated by money. And what the hell is this? "International Peace Operations Association, a trade group representing Blackwater and other military contractors" Does that really exist??? Ticklemygrits 06:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Quite possible, if they were working as truck drivers or mechanics in the Chilean Army. Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
The more general issue is that the business model of the private military industry entails a new, more corporate stance intended to make the industry palatable to government and business in a way that "mercenaries" are not. -- Pleasantville 16:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The dictionary definitions are further up the page. After seeing a video with Doug Brooks and Scahill, it's pretty obvious Blackwater don't like the term. They seem to be using an unnecessarily stringant definition of 'mercenary' to deny that they are. But they fit the definition of any dictionary you can find. It's an interesting video, I'd love someone to find sources apart from Scahill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn0phnmsEOA&mode=related&search= Ticklemygrits 08:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC) PS in three parts
They are reported as mercenaries in the international (European, Australian) media. There was a reference to a Geneve convention paragraph that defined them as mercenaries, but I do not have the quote -- 212.213.204.99 10:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
One could use Erik Prince's remark from his congressional testimony regarding the use of the term mercenary (noted in his entry) as a counterpoint. (Otherwise such thing may be difficult to source.) -- Pleasantville 14:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The very fact that this discussion is happening reveals the rampant POV; the term "mercenary" is being debated not for its descriptive value, but for its pejorative value. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 03:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd add a "disputed neutrality" tag to this article but it would take me hours to identify and dispute all the extraneous information presented. Even if I did, one of you would probably use the Wiki-magic of "7 degrees of separation" to show how I "have ties to" certain irrelevant Republicans, and Big [insert industry here]. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 08:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
According to reference [58] Blackwater employees are not mercenaries under international law making media allegations erroneous and extraneous This is the edit summary that you've managed to ignore twice. Rebut or recuse (yourself). -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 09:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Unbelievable.
[5] Instead of providing a proper counterbalance to fact X, fact X was removed so that the improper counterbalance Y could remain in the article. --
Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 09:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC) Struck by me. --
Haizum μολὼν λαβέ
09:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I have made a report to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. -- Pleasantville 09:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: While I agree that it would be ideal if Haizum would explain specifics in the talk page, I also agree that his edit summaries are good enough. If he'd been asking us to wade thru a page of edit summaries or something to find an ancient edit summary then I would say this was unresonable. Also if someone doesn't check the history but checks the talk page and removes then I don't think the person could really be blamed for that. But I would presume that those reverting are reading the summaries given that they are using them. So IMHO it was a bit unresonable for Pleasantville to continually revert. Also I note that Haizum did come here and explain again why he was adding the POV-intro tag after the the reversions started. If pleasantvile doesn't agree with the view it's POV that's fine but IMHO proper behaviour is to discuss the issue and since it appears Haizum was willing to discuss the problem the tag should remain, at least for a while. Nil Einne 10:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I've edited the section to try an address POV concerns. It's true that ref 79 doesn't negate or directly address the fact that no one BW has been guarding has ever been seriously injured or killed so it was wrong for it to suggest it did. However it does provide context for the record and the equipement they carry and also provides a view on their behaviour in Iraq. Nil Einne 09:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that Haizum has a point. The fact that many of their people are technically not merceneries is relevant. The fact that they are widely considered merceneries is also relevent and I don't think this should be removed from the intro. I'm thinking of a way to address the issue here, mentioning the fact that most of their people may not be considered merceneries under international law without going into too much detail. In the mean time, please leave the tag. Also, see above for my view on the reversions Nil Einne 10:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay I've tried to summarise the mercenary bit. I don't think there's any need to go into the Chileans bit or the specifics of which laws. Nil Einne 10:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
In this case, I don't really agree with Haizum. However I did remove some stuff. I think it's barely relevant that Erik Prince's father was rich and not at all relevant that he invented the lighted car visor and died in 1995. The Christian bit is slightly relevant particularly given that he's operating in a number of Muslim countries but IMHO given it's seperate from his BW role, not enough. As for the other stuff well I removed the intern in GHWB White House bit. It's old enough that I don't think it's that relevant. However I agree with others that the donations are relevant as are his support for specific candidates. Especially since his company has directly benefited from contracts awarded by a government that these people are members of. Nil Einne 10:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Gee, Haizum, then what should we call no-bid contracts? "Competitive contracts"? There are lots of things in Wikipedia that can be generally viewed as a "negative thing", so shall we prune every article so nobody "looks negative" based on stated fact? Haizum, I'm not sure you understand how Wikipedia works, it's not for hit-jobs nor for sugar-coating... it's for relevant facts and letting the chips fall where they may. Quit attempting to rearrange the chips, it smells of agenda. Cowicide 08:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
So where else should BW's executives connection to government be documented in Wikipedia? Or do you just want this not to be widely known? Do you think they should be ashamed of their connections to Bush & co.? Niczar 11:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This page is supposed to be about the article on Blackwater USA, rather than Haizum's possible genders. I think I was the first (and perhaps only one) to use the word "emotional" to describe Haizum. If he has an issue with that, he should take it up on the ANI I initiated. -- Pleasantville 17:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Haizum, question: if not RS, what can we use to make this NPOV? Please detail for us? • Lawrence Cohen 21:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Heres a conservative source, the FT, heres an editorial [6] and heres the news coverage [7]. (Hypnosadist) 15:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC) And heres links between haliburton and blackwater [8]. (Hypnosadist) 15:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
(UTC)
Just a point here, the Financial Times is a British paper (but still the most read on wall street). (Hypnosadist) 18:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I apologize, I don't see how this is being helpful in any way. Posting here to notify all involved. My apologies. • Lawrence Cohen 22:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Just so everyone is clear, that weaponized ANI was fruitless. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 03:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe there's not a single mention of the Sept. 16th Nisoor Square massacre in this whole article. What's going on here? dariopy 13:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
This really needs a citation, especially with the extrapolation taken about the intent of the donation. -- arkalochori |talk| 07:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Mindboggling though this oxymoron be, perhaps The Blackwater Global Peace and Stability Operations Institute should be mentioned. -- Pleasantville 15:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
What do you guys think of my eliminating the subsections? I think it works better this way. I want to do something similar on other sections, but those look like they will be tougher. • Lawrence Cohen 23:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Guys, I think we have a great base of material (a lot of it, actually) to work off of, but the structure is the biggest problem I can readily see. Please check out:
User:Lawrence Cohen/sandbox/Blackwater USA
I started that just as a layout tool, on how we can possibly restructure this. I want to go for Featured Article, but we need GA first, then Peer. Lets take it all the way. We can be front page in a few months I bet. Please edit that sub page of mine--order, layout, projected length of a section. The length guesstimate is in case we'll need to adjust the layout further because of more forked child articles. Please take a whack at it. Once we hammer out a good layout and structure, we can jam that structure onto Blackwater USA, and then dive into a section-by-section cleanup. I was thinking we can re-do the layout there, instead of live, so that it's less messy. One person can then go in and do the major copy/paste work for the restructuring without us tripping on each other. • Lawrence Cohen 16:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Like Tickle mentioned above, I'm stuck on this one and where best to put all the current info (which is all good) and how to break it down. See here, and feel free to edit/change my sandbox at will. I think we need a controversy section--they are highly contentious and controversial, but beside that its the standard format of a lot of Wikipedia articles for that sort of thing to go in. What do you all think? Please take a whack at my test layout. • Lawrence Cohen 17:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Under the litigation section can be found a reference of slain Blackwater contractors' families testimony to Congress regarding drafting of laws governing DoD contractors.
These laws already exist.
Blackwater is under contract with the State Department.
As for the diasambiguation page, politics and newsworthiness have no place in an encyclopedia. Blackwater is black water is Blackwater.
The reference section, btw, is similar to using Westlaw for cooking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.199.180.164 ( talk) 10:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is getting big again. Possible options:
I'm inclined to say the operations one, first. It will likely grow the most, besides the legal. This article could well spawn yet more of these. Thoughts? I'd be willing to do the heavy lifting in a few days again. • Lawrence Cohen 14:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Should this page be moved to Blackwater Worldwide given the name change? Tmaull 14:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The "See Also" is blatantly POV. It won't be long before "military-industrial complex" and "fascist" are added to that list. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 06:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
What about 'Search and Avoid Missions' in Iraq. I don't like Blackwater, but to be fair it's worth noting why such organizations can thrive in hostile Zones. Why, because it's dangerous and nobody on a soldiers salary would do it.
See this Article: (scroll to bottom of article for summary)
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/66160?page=2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Byzantine Dragon ( talk • contribs) 07:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I completely admit to my naivete in knowing how to do this, but here I go: First and foremost, my dislosure: I have written extensively on the topic of Modern PMCs and Blackwater in particular; I wrote my MA thesis on the topic. That said, I would not claim to be an experrt and as such my word should not be taken as gospel. 1)I take issue with the "no-bid contract" mentioned in paragraph 2. Though Blackwater has undoubtedly received no bid contracts, as Erik Prince noted himsel in his testimony before congress the vast majority were bid via the typical government contracting process. The article cited says that 2/3 of those being looked at were no-bid, not all contracts; furthermore, I take issue with the ability to actually differentitate between no bid contracts and the actual process of writing a "catalog entry," and the government then choosing. Either way, the entry is misleading.
2)I take much more significant issue with the citation of the $445,000/year in the second paragraph. later in the entry there is a discussion of Erik Prince's refuting this number as outlandish, this should either be included in the second paragraph or the number should be excluded. Simply because Congressman Waxman, not exactly a non-biased source, creates this number, doesn't make it legitimate.
3)Within the Iraq War section: Blackwater is not protecting The American Embassy per se. It is more accurate to say that they are guarding US Embassy Personell, as the US Military is largely responsible for guarding the Green Zone in which the Embassy is contained. Blackwater is famous, or infamous, not for standing around guarding a gate, but running around with State Dept. employees.
4)Post Citation 37, the article would benefit from some explanation as to the higher numbers of fire first incidents and the placement of 195 engagements within the thousands of operations they have run. Even Chairman Waxman included this in his report.
5)In regards to the picking up the injured US Marine; three things would be worth noting: 1)that this was outside the realm of their contractual obligations, in other words they did it because they wanted to save a fellow American, 2) the pilots who did this were chastised for doing so because it was outside their contractual obligation (see RYP Licensed to Kill), 3)according to Erik Prince as least come ground elements in Baghdad carry the Blackwater Helos call signs to come bail them out when necessary
6)After the notation of Blackwater pulling out of IPOA, it would be worth noting that Blackwater is forming their own organizaiton, including holding a conference to deal with similar issues the Doug Brooks and IPOA normally deal with.
7)After citation number 68, in the discussion of Erik Prince's rebuttal to the characterization of his men as mercenaries; he also defined mercenary as Foreigners hired into military service. It could be noted that while the average blackwater employee, being american, is not by his own characterization a mercenary, those chileans or third party nationals blackwater hires are in fact mercenaries.
Overall, I would say that the article is biased against Blackwater, which of course is not difficult to understand given the current public opinion of Blackwater; however, I think these changes could be beneficial in making it more neutral. Wnegley 10:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The link to Charlie Black links to a stub for a basket ball player born in 1920. I don't know but I don't think that this is the same Charlie Black. Ender8282 23:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
After an incident on September 16, 2007 when a Blackwater team guarding a State Department convoy in Baghdad fatally shot 17 Iraqis near a bustling traffic circle, Blackwater unveiled a new logo.
After an incident on September 16, 2007 when a Blackwater team guarding a State Department convoy in Baghdad fatally shot 17 Iraqis near a bustling traffic circle is still in the section and has no business being there without proof that the change was made due to the incident itself. The fact that you can't see this as being a problem means you should recuse yourself. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 06:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Lauren Miller, the owner of MDesign, a graphic design firm in New York, commented on the logo change, "“I would say it’s a highly significant change; they’re repositioning themselves. The old logo suggests that they’re targeting people. The new logo is a more ambiguous, more safe corporate logo.”
Alright, the article is now marginally acceptable to me. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 07:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
resetting the indents
Hmm, there seems to be a strange interpretation of policy operating here. We don't evaluate third party articles for NPOV, original research, etc. We do evaluate the publishers of such articles for reliability, and the New York Times news pages clearly meet those standards; in fact, they fall in the top tier of journalistic sources.
When there is more than one side to a controversy, we try to identify which viewpoints there are, so we can present them in rough proportion to their significance. In this case, there does not appear to be much of a controversy within reliable sources; an editor may personally disagree with the content of the NYT piece but this does not a controversy make. So using roughly the same viewpoint and conclusions of the Times piece is not a problem.
Using the exact language (Jim Bean's, etc) would be problematic, since the NYT is a newspaper and writes its articles in a certain narrative voice which may be inappropriate for an encyclopedia. However, that does not seem to be the issue here - nobody is suggesting, so far as I can see, that we should say something like "The old lettering resembled the font used on bottles of inexpensive whiskey[29]".
Can we discuss, specifically, what language in the encyclopedia article is questioned, rather than perform a blog-style Fisking of the NYT piece? < eleland/ talk edits> 17:21, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
has individually expressed ongoing concerns in the past month about his perceived view of the neutrality of the article Blackwater Worldwide. In particular, the Logo section is the current point of contention. Haizum argues that the New York Times article, "Blackwater Softens Its Logo From Macho to Corporate" is a biased and individualy a possibly unacceptable source for information on Blackwater USA changing it's logo recently. From reading the entirety of this article talk page, he has also expressed that the article does not meet NPOV standards. An extensive review would be appreciated by outside eyes, as traffic on this talk page has significantly dropped, as the article has stabilized, except for User:Haizum's concerns. Aside from his concerns and some citation formatting clean-up, there is no other hold up now to starting this article on the GA/FA path, and we need to get this conclusively addressed. So, two issues to be addressed: 1. Review of that NYT article, and the logo section; and 2. the overall neutrality of this article, Blackwater Worldwide: is it fine? If not, why? !! time=21:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)}}
Reason for RfC: Haizum ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has individually expressed ongoing concerns in the past month about his perceived view of the neutrality of the article Blackwater Worldwide. In particular, the Logo section is the current point of contention. Haizum argues that the New York Times article, " Blackwater Softens Its Logo From Macho to Corporate" is a biased and individualy a possibly unacceptable source for information on Blackwater USA changing it's logo recently. From reading the entirety of this article talk page, he has also expressed that the article does not meet NPOV standards. An extensive review would be appreciated by outside eyes, as traffic on this talk page has significantly dropped, as the article has stabilized, except for User:Haizum's concerns. Aside from his concerns and some citation formatting clean-up, there is no other hold up now to starting this article on the GA/FA path, and we need to get this conclusively addressed. So, two issues to be addressed: 1. Review of that NYT article, and the logo section; and 2. the overall neutrality of this article, Blackwater Worldwide: is it fine? If not, why?
Please also read Talk:Blackwater_Worldwide#Logo directly above this section, for more background and discussion of the merits (or lack) of this source and section. • Lawrence Cohen 21:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Haizum, take a look at this. • Lawrence Cohen 05:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I've been staring at the article for the past few days, as its not up to 65kb in size, which is too large. Theres not really a practical way to fork off a section yet, though, unfortunately. We can't do Blackwater Worldwide in Iraq, as that would functionally be the whole article. We shouldn't do Blackwater Worldwide controversies, unless that gets so overwhelming we have no choice--but thats a ways off. Blackwater Worldwide operations is probably the best bet, but needs more meat.
We have a ton of sources in the article not properly citation formatted, I'm going to start up on that again this week. So we can get 1-7 done. We also need to integrate all the sources that are listed under external links that Cla68 added. Beyond that, there is going to a huge amount of additional sources, especially as the arms smuggling investigations around Krongard have progressed in Congress, and the Nisoor Square killings have turned into an international lawsuit. Nisoor square will be a very long article on its own before all is said and done. So, short to-do list:
Am I missing anything? Other areas of interest that merit a section on the article? List them all; we can always add them here first then ship them off in detail to the other articles, while leaving a reference here on this one. Lawrence Cohen 14:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
before anybody makes anymore changes concerning mercenary and contractors, put down on this page why it should be one or the other. I personally believe they are more like mercenaries and in the traditional sense of the word, they are mercenaries but they are referred to as contractors.
Perhaps we'll jsut call them contractors and put a note saying that while they are called contractors, they are mercenaries or something like that.
Bubbleboys 22:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
they are mercenaries and they are contractors in both senses they are mercenaries because they have units that are paid and combat trained that go in "battle" (some even died in iraq) and they're contractors because they are contracted out by the gov't to do other tasks like logistics/integrated communications stc. they are also able to contract out themselves hopefully this will help you with your disagrement also check out their website [www.blackwaterusa.com]
errm, can someone add more relating to there new found role in helping out with the NO disaster as mentioned here http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091005A.shtml (very biased) and on there homepage http://www.blackwaterusa.com
I have added a brief rehash of Blackwater's press release and Jeremy Scahill's article. Nick
My father works for the company, so i had the pleasure of touring the grounds. they are trained to protect highly visible VIP's, not "attack" front line enemy troops. This article has a lot of bias, but even bias has its citable sources. Ill see if i can get some good info from my father and maybe hellp make this article better Sponge1354 02:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Sponge, you hardly sound like an objective source. You saw a very small part of a very large organization. Ask your father about extraordinary renditions to Eastern Europe, or "interrogation techniques" at Abu Graib. ----Rawckuf.
the company says blatantly on it's website that you must be a US citized to apply there. therefore, unless someone can provide some evidence that blackwater does indeed hire (not just work with...remember people: multinational force in iraq, americans work WITH people from other nations all the time) non US citizens, the line regarding the term mercenary being correct only for non US citizens, i'm deleting the sentence. oh, one more thing to be deleted is the statement regarding 'private security contractors aroused anger in iraq'. it is not specifically citing blackwater, so why is it there? you wouldn't put a blurb about wal-marts worker comp fraud on k-mart's page, would you?
Would you consider BBC as a reliable source? See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7008058.stm for referrence to "231 third country nationals and 12 Iraqis" Pustelnik 17:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Blackwater hired Chilean commandos. They have an entity based in the barbados which manages their foreign mercs. -- KaliqX 07:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
It's obvious that they are mercenaries. That should be in the first sentence on the page. I assume the only reason it's not in the first sentence is because of blackwater employee's who wiki-propaganda. -- firefight 18:00, 19 Sept 2007 (UTC)
User:Lawrence Cohen claims that there is "consensus" on the use of the term "mercenary". Frankly, I don't see any such consenus.-- Davidwiz 22:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC) Just because some newpaper reporters use the word "mercenary" doesn't mean that Blackwater is.
It is far more common for reliable sources to refer to Blackwater employees simply as "employees" or "contractors". It seems incredibly P.O.V. to apply the highly negative term "mercenary" to Blackwater employees objectively firstly because it is not clear that they are acting as soldiers. The company defines their role in Iraq and other places they are contracted by the US govt as being security guards or bodyguards. When they have been involved in violent actions, they have been protecting a convoy carrying some civilian diplomat or businessman, not a military action. Secondly, for them to be mercenaries they would have to be soldiers fighting for a foreign government. Blackwater USA is staffed by US citizens working on behalf of the US govt in a US conflict, so the term mercenary again doesn't make sense. Jeremy Scahill has been the most vocal critic of Blackwater, and he has alleged that Blackwater hired Chileans or other non-US nationals to work in Iraq. If those Chileans worked as soldiers rather than simply as guards or logistical workers, then those Chileans could be called mercenaries, but only those Chileans. Scahill does not seem to be an objective source here, based on his extremely POV interviews on the partisan site Democracy Now. Scahill and virtually every source that refers to Blackwater with the pejorative term mercenary are opposed to the US invasion/occupation of Iraq and usage of this term seems to be more an expression of dislike for the US actions in Iraq than a sincere judgement that Blackwater employees are fighting for the highest bidder. Nearly all regular soldiers expect compensation, both in salary and often benefits as well. But a mercenary is one who will fight for any army at all, with no concern for any particular cause except his own financial gain. Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
i cannot make contributions yet, but i think it would be appropriate for someone to add the following the in the "controversial" section. it should be noted the scary similarities between blackwater and the nazi SS, here is one referance- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen_SS
above the law, "to protect political people", best of the best personnel,... and cold blooded killers like many others have pointed out.
thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blacksheepwiggins ( talk • contribs) 09:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
i hadn't thought of it as "viewpoint". rather, a factual mirror of how the 2 are the same. aside from only the point in time in which they exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.43.230.70 ( talk) 21:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I would just like to state that I think the term "Mercenaries" should be removed from the infobox. Its fine to point out that BW is called a mercenary organization by many sources, as long as both sides of the argument are given, but its not OK in the infobox. Private security is fairly nuanced, and yes, its easier to label a company a merc outfit than it is to explain the shades of grey, so sure, label them a merc outfit, but not in the infobox where theres not going to be any discussion on it. Its intellectually lazy. Tmaull ( talk) 01:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Before I would violate 3RR, I would like to expand on this but while people have criticized Blackwater USA to be a mercenary organization but what people failed to realize is that Blackwater USA / Worldwide is predominantly hired by the United States to carry out missions protecting diplomats. They do not participate in direct warfare as mercenary organizations are hired to do. Executive Outcome would be a good example of a mercenary organization because they were hired to carry out an agenda in direct warfare for which the host country desired. For example, the Polish ambassador in Iraq was attacked in October 2007 and Blackwater USA was assigned to protect him which they did carry out the job and brought the ambassador out safely. While the controversy over Blackwater being discussed as a mercenary organization, they are predominantly US Nationals under United States rules rather than their organization rules. I read through all the 5 source which all of them are Opinion/Ed articles but nothing based on NGO or official government assigned terms. Blackwater Worldwide is recognized by the UN and United States as a Private Military Company but not designated as a mercenary company. People will disagree that they are indeed mercenary but you have to prove that that they are fighting on behalf of a host country in direct warfare. Would you say a bodyguard assigned to an ambassador who is paid by the same organization is also a mercenary in another country? Thank you. ViriiK ( talk) 01:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi ViriiK. I agree that the legal definition is significant in and of itself, but at the same time, we don't adhere to that per our sourcing policies. That is, if a law states that person x is profession y, that is fine. But, at the same time, we have multiple international reputable sources that all refer to Blackwater as a mercenary corporation, which is ultimately what we are required by Wikipedia policies to go with. A discussion on Blackwater as mercenaries is definitely interesting, but unfortunately it doesn't change what we can do. You might want to read WP:SYN, which is policy:
That is what would be happening here. We have sources that say Blackwater is x type of agent or guard or soldier. We have sources that say x type of agent or guard or soldier according to this set of laws may or may not be a mercenary. The problem is, as far as Blackwater goes, we have a variety of international 3rd party independent sources that refer to them as mercenaries. Thats all we can do, as well. Lawrence Cohen 02:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Prince did indeed confirm that on live television. Lawrence Cohen 18:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, not only Prince confirmed this, but the State Department and Congress during the hearings. This is what Black Water was operating on, a no-bid contract. This is a common thing with government contracts when a specific item is needed in a specific amount of time. Mustang Six Zero 02:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
No, totally agree with you on that. That is an issue I have always had with the whole thing is people are quick to jump on the no-bid(bad thing, evil, must point to something wrong bandwagon) when in reality it goes on a lot, is part of the process, and Blackwater is not the first nor the last contractor that has utilized no-bid. Mustang Six Zero 06:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
We would need sourcing for the counter views, but I've got no problem adding them in. We shouldn't use primary sources right from Prince or BW corporate, though. Secondary sources are needed. But I certainly have no problem adding them. When I did a first pass of working on the sourcing here I added stuff along those lines. If possible, lets do fact and citation tags on unsourced bits first? All the material here is sourceable from rereading this many times, and easily, it just looks like some was added some time ago willy nilly. The article truthfully can be another 1/2 again as long, and will be once I begin expanding it out next month. Unless others beat me to the punch. The article is actually pretty darn neutral, as virtually everyone here has commented. The problem, thoughh, is that BW is a very secretive company, so something like 95% of the press coverage, reporting, and book work is negative in tone: thats all the world gets to see.
Unfortunately, due to BW's secretive nature, that is the tone the article has to take, but that is in line with NPOV as well. If only bad things exist that are reported on, we can only report on bad things. I recently picked up a copy of Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army, which has literally thousands of citations on basically anything and everything Blackwater. Once I get going through it this article should expand exponentially. There will be a ton of great information. I was thinking of bringing this to Featured Article status, but in hindsight I can see at least 1-2 articles of that length and hopeful quality, and a few others bringing up the rear behind that. Lawrence Cohen 07:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Are they named after sewage or what? -- RucasHost ( talk) 16:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reason this edit was reverted? It appears to be sourced. - Tmaull ( talk) 15:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
BLACKWATER USA IS AN "INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST" ORGANIZATION, AS DEFINED IN 18 USC 2331, ET SEQ.
The above statement that claims,"BLACKWATER USA IS AN "INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST" ORGANIZATION, AS DEFINED IN 18 USC 2331, ET SEQ." is completely false. The US Code collection can be found at the following link: [11]
(1) the term “international terrorism” means activities that— (A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum;
The purpose of wikipedia.com is to pass along "facts" to those seeking answers and to those who believe in researching something before formulating an opinion. This article was mostly spin and biased towards one-side. How is anyone going to gain any kind of knowledge on something that is so obviously filled with controvertable "facts"? I hope people will take the time to truly research the Blackwater company before formulating a perception, especially based on this article.
The villain in the recent Knight Rider TV movie was "Blackriver security", a firm with contracts in Iraq... AnonMoos ( talk) 06:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
WP:Good article usage is a survey of the language and style of Wikipedia editors in articles being reviewed for Good article nomination. It will help make the experience of writing Good Articles as non-threatening and satisfying as possible if all the participating editors would take a moment to answer a few questions for us, in this section please. The survey will end on April 30.
At any point during this review, let us know if we recommend any edits, including markup, punctuation and language, that you feel don't fit with your writing style. Thanks for your time. - Dan
Dank55 (
talk)(
mistakes)
03:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I've started reviewing this, but I'm afraid I'll have to finish tomorrow night. Sorry! I have some thoughts already though, figured I'd give them so you can get working on them. Most are very minor and won't stop it passing; however, the citation issues do need to be dealt with before it can pass. I've included even very minor issues that you may want to have dealt with before going to FAC.
This is just a start, I'll have more in a bit. delldot on a public computer talk 10:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
More:
More to follow. Once again, the only really serious problems are the citation issues. delldot on a public computer talk 10:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Hitting save now, more to follow. delldot on a public computer talk 01:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
More:
I'm putting this on hold for now. The main problems I see are the citations needed, which have been tagged, the flow issues needing some reorganization, and a few NPOV things. The other stuff I mentioned would be nice to get fixed but aren't deal breakers.
I feel like I've been exceedingly harsh here; you've really done a great job with a very difficult topic, getting all the info in and keeping it NPOV for the most part. Definitely keep up the good work, there's nothing here to stop this from becoming a GA and beyond once these main issues are fixed. I'm glad to help however I can, definitely keep me posted and let me know if I can offer any clarification or other aid. delldot on a public computer talk 02:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
THIS PAGE IS RIFE WITH WEAZEL WORDS!!!! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.246.155.104 (
talk)
14:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 10:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This article is arguably the worst in Wiki history. The first paragraph alone is not only poorly written but also almost entirely (and heavily) POV. The inclusion of so many anti-Blackwater talking points just in the first 500 words is appalling for an alleged "encyclopedia," even by Wikipedia's usually shoddy standards. When people laugh at Wikipedia ... this article illustrates precisely why.
If any of you actually care about journalistic integrity and want Wikipedia to look something like a real encyclopedia, go grab one - a real encyclopedia - and check how they treat the subject. Then erase this whole article and start over. Begin the entire first section with NPOV, objective description. Since you won't be able to help yourself from including your bias, add those in later sections on controversy and criticism.
As it reads now, this is a one-sided embarrassment. I don't care how deep you are in your own brand of Kool-Aid, you should be able to recognize just how bad this article truly is. Imagine an article on President Clinton that begins with the alleged murder of Vince Foster and several alleged rapes, before going on to point out that he was the 42nd President. That's precisely how biased this article is.
74.185.105.135 ( talk) 11:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you. This article obviously is biased and I think needs to be rewritten. It seems to consist of all the controversial actions of this company but doesn't include much history of the company. Also, the Najaf incident could be detailed more.
Alot of material on Wikipedia that is about private military companies is controversial and needs to be rewritten from a neutral view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 23:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
It's cute how all the IPs are chiming in. The only reason Blackwater is notable is because of the controversy they create. Be serious. Tool2Die4 ( talk) 01:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
-Anonymous user again-With the current article, it tells the reader that Blackwater Worldwide (when it's actually Blackwater Security Consulting-a division of Blackwater Worldwide) mostly about Blackwater's contracts and operations in Iraq. I think that there should be information about Blackwater's state of the art training facility (some of the best targets in the world and a complex simulation of a school crisis situation) and also Blackwater's contracts throughout the world (training the Georgeian military, guarding the oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea-see Caspian Guard-, and they were recently in a contract that would put them in South America to fight drug cartels.
This article needs to be rewritten so that it is not biased at all and completely informative, just like what an encylopedia article should be written like. The current article just presents information that leaves the leader with a biased opinion of Blackwater. Does anybody understand what I'm trying to say? Thanks, I'm just trying to help make Wikipedia better in topics that I know alot about and have a strong interest for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 08:47, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok I will be putting some stuff in very soon. I ask that somebody reviews what I wrote to make sure it is formatted correctly and meet's Wikipedia's standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 18:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I just put some stuff in. I couldn't figure out how to cite it correclty so my sources are within the article. Help please in fixing that. I just noticed that my edits do not appear. I am unfamiliar with how editting works but I'm assuming it's being reviewed by somebody.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 18:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
There was some recent vandalism with critisicism against Blackwater that violated several of Wikipedia's rules. I deleted the vandalism.
Also, I made some changes but they were deleted reffering to Caspian Guard. I'm going to rewrite Caspian Guard with better citations so it hopefully meets Wikipedia's requirements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 07:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
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Right now there is a ridiculous disambiguation page. No one is searching for "Blackwater" as a geographical location. If they are, let them go to the disambiguation page. As it is, looking through that long list to find "Blackwater USA" is going to discourage those who don't know much about what is going on, and so may not have the time or even saavy to scan through such a long list. This seems fair.
Previous edits of the Criticism section included Jeremy Scahill's book, Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army (ISBN: 1560259795) . That reference has disappeared. What is up with that? HC21:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I strongly agree. The section on Scahill needs to be much more significant. Links need to be made to DemocracyNow.org, an easy search of the archives under Blackwater or Scahill should do. This is important, especially given any attempt to scrub this site of references to one of the group's strongest and most articulate critics (As mentioned below, "With your "contributions" to this article from your corporate IP range, you're currently NUMBER THREE on the list of Most Shameful Wikipedia Spin Jobs!"). Surely any reasonable person would grant the significance of his criticism, whatever your opinion. The greatest threat to the issue is that it be taken as a non-issue. Now who would want to see that happen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.121.73 ( talk) 01:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
A Mercenary is - Concerning a legal definition of mercenary, the Special Rapporteur's interim report to the General Assembly (A/55/334) provides information on, inter alia: mercenary. The report notes that the currently accepted meaning or use of the term primarily focusses on professional services that are paid to recruit soldiers to intervene in an armed conflict in a country other than their own. So before anyone tries to merge "contractors" with "mercenaries" there should be careful discussion on what services that company, who would be lumped into that category, has provided. SCG International Risk, for example, works only for the US Government and private US corporations. Ghostscg 00:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Since the definition of what is a mercenary seems to be in dispute...
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mercenary, n. and a.
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c1387-95 CHAUCER Canterbury Tales Prol. 514 He [sc. the parson] was a shepherde and noght a mercenarye [v.r. mersenarye]. c1475 (a1449) LYDGATE Minor Poems (1911) I. 167 Pastor callid, nat a mercenarye. ?1548 J. BALE Comedy Thre Lawes Nature III. sig. C8v, We are soch mercenaryes... As from the flock all carryes. 1643 SIR T. BROWNE Relig. Medici I. §52 Mercenaries that crouch unto him in feare of Hell..are indeed but slaves of the Almighty. 1805 H. TOOKE Diversions of Purley II. 3 Punish the wickedness of those mercenaries who utter such atrocities. 1806 J. LINGARD Antiq. Anglo-Saxon Church II. xi. 258 The monastic institute was condemned, as calculated only for mercenaries and slaves. 1982 N.Y. Times (Nexis) 11 July II. 15 Mr Lucas's original intention was to ‘do the first one [sc. Star Wars film] and then be a real mercenary and turn it over to someone like Fox and take a big percentage of the gross’. 1998 Mirror (Nexis) 18 Dec. 49 When Everton came in for me two seasons ago, West Ham were in relegation trouble. If I'd been a real mercenary, I'd have cleared off and left them to it.
1523 LD. BERNERS tr. J. Froissart Chron. I. ccv. 242 The Almaygnes, and mercenaryes of strange countreis. 1583 P. STUBBES Anat. Abuses II. sig. K7, The reading ministers after they be hired of the parishes (for they are mercenaries). 1638 G. SANDYS Paraphr. Job vii. 10 He a poore mercenary serves for bread. 1687 DRYDEN Hind & Panther II. 49 Like mercenary's, hir'd for home defence, They will not serve against their native Prince. 1776 T. JEFFERSON Wks. (1859) I. 23 He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries. 1840 R. BROWNING Sordello IV. 51 Lean silent gangs of mercenaries ceased Working to watch the strangers. 1849 G. GROTE Hist. Greece VII. II. lx. 438 Greeks continental and insular..volunteers and mercenaries..were all here to be found. 1913 G. EDMUNDSON Church Rome First Cent. vi. 169 The storming and burning of the Capitol by the foreign mercenaries of Vitellius. 1974 F. FORSYTH Dogs of War (1975) I. iv. 86 So for the last six years he had lived as a mercenary, often an outlaw, at best regarded as a soldier for hire, at worst a paid killer.
1861 J. PYCROFT Ways & Words 285 Literary mercenaries, ready to serve under friend or foe. 1987 E. PRAGER Clea & Zeus Divorce (1988) v. 26 They wore their camouflage fatigues..and heavy boots and berets, like the show biz mercenaries they were.
1532 T. MORE Confut. Tyndale in Wks. 507/2 A mercennary preacher and an hired, which seketh his own temporal aduauntage & commoditie. 1600 SHAKESPEARE Merch. V. IV. i. 415 And I deliuering you, am satisfied, and therein doe account my selfe well payd, my minde was neuer yet more mercinarie. 1616 SIR R. DUDLEY in Fortescue Papers (Camden) 17 And that, whether you move this suite or noe, for I am not mercenarie. 1762 O. GOLDSMITH Citizen of World I. 45 Such wretches are kept in pay by some mercenary bookseller. 1843 Ainsworth's Mag. 4 308 Upon the ‘balance’,..women are quite as mercenary as men. 1865 DICKENS Our Mutual Friend II. III. iv. 31 Haven't I told you what a mercenary little wretch I am? 1955 A. WEST Heritage ii. 38, I should be put in a school where I would neither be exposed, nor tempted to expose myself, to the activities of mercenary and unscrupulous journalists. 1997 Dallas Morning News (Nexis) 20 Dec. 1A, Mr. Greene said he's heard skeptical comments that JPI only gave the city the property because it benefited from the deal. ‘They're not a mercenary organization.’
1532 T. MORE Confut. Tyndale in Wks. 362/2 They holde that it is not lawfull to loue..God..for obteining of reward, calling this maner of loue..seruile bonde and mercennary. 1619 H. HUTTON Follie's Anat. sig. A5v, Value my verse according to her worth: No mercenary hope hath brought her forth. 1690 W. TEMPLE Misc. II. i. 68 Learning has been so little advanced since it grew to be mercenary. 1711 LD. SHAFTESBURY Characteristicks (1737) I. II. iii. 97 They have made Virtue so mercenary a thing, and have talk'd so much of its Rewards. 1781 W. COWPER Hope 333 His soul abhors a mercenary thought, And him as deeply who abhors it not. 1837 H. MARTINEAU Society in Amer. III. 128 The disgusting spectacle of mercenary marriages. 1861 DICKENS Let. 6 Nov. (1938) III. 251 They are all old servants,..and..are under the strongest injunction to avoid any approach to mercenary dealing. 1890 H. JAMES Tragic Muse I. xiii. 273, I might improve my fortune by some other means than by making a mercenary marriage. 1913 T. HARDY Changed Man 275 No man when he first becomes interested in a woman has any definite scheme of engagement to marry her in his mind, unless he is meaning a vulgar mercenary marriage. 1971 I. MURDOCH Accidental Man 150 We are glad to know that you did not learn of the young lady's fortune before you courted her, though we are in any case aware that you are above any mercenary motive. 1990 G. ROBERTSON Media Law 17 The law of England is indeed,..a law of liberty; but the freedoms it recognises do not include a licence for the mercenary betrayal of business confidences.
1569 T. STOCKER tr. Diodorus Siculus' Hist. Successors Alexander 105 Aboute two thousand Mercenarie Grekes, and so many Thracians. 1589 R. GREENE Ciceronis Amor 52 A simple sheepeharde who as a Mercinarie man kept sheepe for Vatinius. 1590 J. SMYTHE Certain Disc. Weapons 49b, They..began..to go ouer to serue as mercenarie soldiers in the Low Countries. 1611 T. CORYATE Crudities I. 171 Of these Gondolaes..sixe thousand are priuate..and foure thousand for mercenary men, which get their liuing by the trade of rowing. 1640 I. WALTON Life of Donne in J. Donne 80 Serm. A6 He continued that employment.., being daily usefull (and not mercenary) to his friends. 1795 W. SEWARD Anecd. (1796) III. 382 Lord Chatham was obliged to call in to its aid the mercenary troops of other Nations: these..he subsidised with a liberal..hand. 1830 LADY MORGAN France 1829-30 I. 502 For what purpose is all this apparatus of tyranny..the jail, the gibbet, the mercenary army, [etc.]{em}to obtain the power of doing evil. 1871 E. A. FREEMAN Hist. Norman Conquest IV. xviii. 233 William at this time dismissed the mercenary part of his army. 1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 31/2 Abd-ar-rahman subdued the nobles by means of a mercenary army, which included Christians. 1974 J. PHILIPS Power Killers (1975) I. i. 9 There is a well organized..terror group that involves mercenary killers all over the world.
1656 T. STANLEY Hist. Philos. (new ed.) VI. xv. 27 He shut up his poor shop, and gave over his mercenary profession. a1684 J. EVELYN Diary anno 1664 (1955) III. 369, I saw acted the Indian Queene a Tragedie..so beautified with rich Scenes as the like had never ben seene..on a mercenarie Theater. 1726 J. AYLIFFE Parergon 319 Such Things..the Judge may despatch by his mercenary Office. 1782 T. PENNANT Journey Chester to London 96 These livings at that time were good rectories; now poor vicarages, or mercenary curacies, annexed to the bishoprick.
a1616 SHAKESPEARE Hen. V (1623) IV. vii. 74 Many of our Princes..Lye drown'd and soak'd in mercenary blood. 1735 J. THOMSON Liberty II. 38 To spill Their Country's bravest blood, and on themselves To turn their matchless mercenary Arms. 1758 J. HOME Agis II. i. 22 Tell..Rhesus, if he loves bright arms..No more to wield a mercenary sword, But plant himself with thee in Sparta's soil. 1922 A. E. HOUSMAN in Oxf. Bk. 20th Cent. Eng. Verse (1973) 48 These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling And took their wages and are dead.
An article at "Backwater training centre" was being prodded; I removed the PROD and redirected it here. The content doesn't seem to be completely redundant, so I'm reproducing it here:
-- maru (talk) contribs 06:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone managed to claim that Bethesda Softworks stooped so low as to include contemporary political satire in their fantasy game Oblivion. In this game, there is a mercenary company named the Blackwood Company which pursue unethical acts. What the author failed to realise, is that the company is named after the region in the game in which they base their operations, the Blackwood forest. The fictional world of this forest precedes Blackwater USA by three years. Joffeloff 23:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
The Blackwater organisation is also named after a geographic trait in the region (Blackwater Creek), the symbol the company uses is also used because there are a number of Black Bears on the property. (Bears paw in the crosshairs.) Izzy1985 23:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
the Line: Blackwater USA consists of five companies: is followed by six lines of "subcompanies"... whats right? 5 or 6? -- 87.193.35.4 18:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Not sure what date should be used for when blackwater was found: the company website uses 1996 as the genesis of the operation, as did the Wikipedia page prior to my edit. During the congressional hearing over Reconstruction is Iraq on Wednesday, the 7th of February, the General Council for Blackwater said the company was founded in 1997. No real concensus on what year to use for foundation. BarabasKid 20:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
On a broadcast of Democracy Now, they mentioned that the founders of Blackwater were big contributors to Bush/ Cheney's election campaign. Do you think this is worth putting in the article? -- Jml4000 23:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Aelffin. Perhaps the best place to note the contributions to Republican candidates by Prince and Jackson is under the section dealing with personnel, where their names are mentioned. The extant connections between the current government administration and this company through personnel exchanges are further justification for acknowledging a publicly-alleged conflict of interest--i.e. current vice president, Cofer Black, is the former coordinator for counterterrorism at the State Department and former director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, and Joseph Schmitz, current COO of the Prince Group, Blackwater's parent company, was previously the Pentagon's Inspector General. There should be some acknowledgment of these relationships. Mcwabaunsee 20:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
If conflict of interest is mentioned, it seems to be part of the corporate culture. Cofer Black is now counterterrorism advisor on the Romney campaign staff. ----Rawkcuf.
With your "contributions" to this article from your corporate IP range, you're currently NUMBER THREE on the list of Most Shameful Wikipedia Spin Jobs!
Blackwater's creative history of what happended in Al Najaf, Iraq in April 2004 is interesting but not completely true. As an eyewitness of the events that transpired in April 2004 in Al Najaf, here is the rest of the story: A team of Marines from 4th ANGLICO, attached to MND-CS, arrived on Al Ándalus to assist in repelling the attack by Al Sadr's Militia which lasted almost the entire month of April. The ANGLICO Marines were also joined by SSgt Allen Truesdale who was attached to a unit training the ICDC (Iraqi Civil Defense Corps). Upon their arrival at the base, the ANGLICO Marines exposed themselves to enemy fire while establishing a communication plan with the Spanish headquarters, the CPA headquarters, and an element from the MND headquarters. The ANGLICO Marines (SSgt Derrick Leath, Sgt Justin Foley, Sgt Luis Hernandez, Sgt Halain Suarez, Cpl Jeff Dusch, and Cpl Fahim Mortazavi) and SSgt Truesdale established an obervation post to maintain a view of the surrounding area and began coordinating Close Air Support to include Apaches, F-14s, F-18s, Hueys, etc. While directing aircraft to areas of interest the Marines receivied incoming enemy fire from Al Sadr Hospital which was a taller building on the perimeter of the base.
The Marines changed observation posts on several occasions to gain the best vantage point of the battlefield. After several days of no sleep, the ANGLICO team worked twenty-four hour operations with a two man watch. During this time, the ANGLICO team controlled a C-130 Gunship, Slayer 75, onto a vehicle after their position was attacked with RPG fire. Additionally, the ANGLICO Marines cleared the delivery of a 500lb bomb, with no collateral damage, on a building killing several combatants while. The ANGLICO team also directed the Spanish sniper team on the engagement of enemy combatants and controlled over twenty CAS missions.
It is curious, that Blackwater would leave out such an important factor in the April, 2004 defense of Najaf. Maybe it was because one of their own spray painted the ANGLICO vehicle and received the beat down of his life for showing such disrespect to a team of Marines who had been fighting along side of them for weeks.
SSgt Derrick Leath and SSgt Allen Truesdale won a Bronze Star with "V", Sgt Foley and Sgt Suarez won a Navy Commendation Medal with "V", and Sgt Hernandez, Cpl Dusch, and Cpl Mortazavi earned a Navy Achievement Medal with "V" for their actions in defending the garrison. The statement that "the U.S. military had declared the city unsafe and would not risk inserting U.S. troops" is a lie. I was there and witnessed the bravery of these Marines who have more than earned the right to be recognized as they lived up to the traditions set by Marines before them and weren't earning six figures doing their job. source: http://anglico.net/news_040929.php G8rlawdog 13:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I am pretty sure that the border jail paragraph (currently the last paragraph in Controversy and Critisms) is not true, but I can't prove that. Is there anything to back that up? Tmaull 17:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Most of the History and Controversy sections of this article are dedicated to information concerning the current Iraq war. It seems like a good idea to establish a separate section dealing with the role Blackwater plays in Iraq (how many employees, what kinds of missions, etc.) and criticism concerning this role (lawsuits, company's response to employee deaths in Iraq, etc.). Or, if the information about Blackwater's activities elsewhere, in Azerbaijan, for example, can be expanded, then a section pertaining to Iraq could fall under that larger category. Mcwabaunsee 20:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Under the "Iraq Involvement" section there is a dramatic passage concerning Blackwater's defense of the U.S. base in Najaf. The section should be rewritten more objectively. In addition to that, information concerning other incidents of Blackwater misconduct (in addition to the one already discussed), legal battles, the number of Blackwater employees in Iraq, and the extent of government funding, should also be included. Mcwabaunsee 21:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone geo coordinates? I would like to check if there is anything visible on google earth... sounds interessting. -- Nemissimo 10:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I think we should avoid including current events in an article summary. I know people are desperately eager to be the first to add breaking news to an article, but it's going to look ridiculous in a couple of years time when this information is still in the article summary even though by then it'll just be distant blip in the company's history.
Also, if 20 more things happen to the country in the next couple of years, are we supposed to put ALL this info in the article summary? If so, why bother having the summary at all if it's just becoming longer and longer?
I'm removing this information from the article summary for now because it looks ridiculous. 195.99.220.2 17:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The WP:LEAD is generally a summary of the article that follows - all of it. If the coverage of recent events is considerable, it warrants at least cursory mention in the lead. MrZaius talk 14:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there enough to fork that off, yet, into it's own article? • Lawrence Cohen 23:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
During a Govt. House oversight committee session headed up by Waxman Oct. 2nd, 20007, the question was directly asked to the CEO of Blackwater, who manages a smattering of personell compared to General Petraus' thousands, what his salary is compared to the General. According to the CEO himself, he is being paid (via American taxpayers) around 9 to 10 times what the General is paid although he manages a paltry fraction of people. Also, estimated profits were mentioned as well... mulitple millions of dollars? Of course, the CEO who laughably claimed during the hearing that he "doesn't care" about money said he didn't know what the specific profits were of his company and said since Blackwater is a privately held company they didn't feel the need to let the American people know what their profits were anyway. Basically, he admitted Blackwater is a rogue, anti-American taxmoney-sucking entity. I think the least we can do for those seeking facts on Wikipeida is mention estimated Blackwater profits, salaries, etc. that are being paid by the American taxpayer. It's the right thing to do.... and THAT'S how it is. Sorry, I'm a bit furious right now when the traitors to our country are called "heros". Real heros don't milk American taxpayers, real heros don't run, scurry and hide when light is shown upon them. Real heros fight for America, not profit. ($*&$&ing bastards. Cowicide 07:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I've nominated these articles for In The News on the front page of Wikipedia, and it appears to have some support. • Lawrence Cohen 21:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Featured on Wikipedia ITN on front page, 10/3/07, expect some vandalism... • Lawrence Cohen 23:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Prince Group currently redirects here, but isn't mentioned at all in the article. My understanding is that Prince Group predates Blackwater USA, though, being founded by Erik Prince's father as an automotive company, so perhaps it should have a separate article. It seems the automotive part has since been sold off, but Prince Manufacturing still remains one of the Group's major holdings besides Blackwater. -- Delirium 04:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Unless I'm missing something, both of the Wikinews links are straight to the WN front page, rather than the articles themselves. 138.38.151.17 08:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know the Wikipedia tags for the Current Events template,, but this page is clearly involving current events and will be susceptible to edit wars and arguments with political motivations. I suggest it is locked down or at least noted as current events. 68.1.79.246 20:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the search for a secondary source interpretation of the Geneva convention definition of "mercenary", my recollection is that PW Singer's book Corporate Warriors is good on this point. -- Pleasantville 15:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for rv yourself Nil Einne, the presence of these chilian nationals is i believe very important to the arguement as to if blackwater are mercs. They are mentioned by many sources, what do you want this section to say and why Nil? (Hypnosadist) 15:28, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I've found no mention of sub-contracting to anyone else, would'nt really matter, they are paying for mercs as opposed to hireing them directly in that case. (Hypnosadist) 17:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC) PS can EVERYONE on this page take a chill pill! (Hypnosadist) 17:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I see that someone has added Executive Outcomes to the See also list. EO is much more closely related to BW's competitor Aegis, so I'm not sure this is appropriate. Maybe we need a list of comparable firms? Or is that covered by categories? -- Pleasantville 21:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
On this article, I found an image of their main headquarters. As the building is heavily secured in a 7,000 acre complex with armed guards, and all reports in other sources indicating that photography is disallowed, a free photograph is highly unlikely to be found. Would this then count as fair use? • Lawrence Cohen 21:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I've also asked at WikiProject North Carolina to see if someone can get us an illustrative photo of the entrance to their building at 850 Puddin Ridge Way, for this article. • Lawrence Cohen 21:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
After a US Navy owned IP removed the mercenary tag again, I have re-added it, with five international sources. Google news archive searches, and regular Googling, turn up several dozen more. I suggest that any other removals of this internationally accepted fact be reversed as vandalism. • Lawrence Cohen 18:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
It isn't an "internationally accepted fact" simply because antiwar activists or people opposed to the Bush administration around the world refer to PMCs like Blackwater as mercenaries. There are many other reliable sources which refer to Blackwater with terms other than Mercenary. Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Arkalochori reworded the mercenary usage under NPOV, and that IP from today RV'd it. Let's discuss it here. I think having multiple reliable sources reporting on them as a mercenary organization is sufficient to list them as such, in the lead and in the infobox. While Blackwater doesn't list themselves as mercenaries, they do not get to decide that and their take on it doesn't matter. Thoughts? •
Lawrence Cohen
22:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
That sounds NPOV to me, but the issue I have is that it sounds redundant, since the terms "private military" and "mercenary" are more or less synonymous, IMO. -- Sawyerkaufman 23:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The synonym for "private military" would be "militia", not mercenary. A mercenary is a foreign private military. Walterego Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I just realized it was already redone. Is the current wording alright? • Lawrence Cohen 02:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The terms "security contractor" and "private military contractor" were coined to intentionally muddy the waters. Culturally, Western Civilization has some very strong opinions on the subject of mercenaries. However people have much less strong opinions on bank security guards, and folks the military subcontracts food service to. The terms that are alternatives to "mercenary" tend to be waffle words. -- Pleasantville 12:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Sawyerkaufman that the Americans working for Blackwater aren't mercenaries under the UN conventions, and as well as that Blackwater works in several other countries in which the US isn't a party to the conflict making all their staff there qualify as mercenaries Ticklemygrits 01:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Trying to add the following text, but people keep deleting it claiming it is unsourced. Notice that the two embeded external links point to the sources. What is wrong with it?
Fans of CBS drama series Jericho believe that the fictional company Ravenwood_Security is modeled after Blackwater USA. The theory triggered a heavy discussion about patriotism but the real world connection between the fictional company and Blackwater haven't been disputed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.159.61 ( talk) 19:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Update: The section keeps being removed without proper arguments. I must assume that the moderators do not want Blackwater look bad by being compared to a fictional villain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.159.61 ( talk) 19:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
We should probably have a section for the attorneys & PR firms helping them through their difficulties. See http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5io26XfEe4F4LJr8KxWsRUyjO_SbwD8S34P3O0
What should it be called? Representation? -- Pleasantville 19:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
This is interesting: allegations that the State Dept's Inspector General Howard Krongard has threatened to fire anyone from his office who testify in Henry Waxman's Congressional investigation.
An Uncertain Fate for the Whistleblowers Who Took on State Department's Inspector General by Brian Beutler, Mother Jones, October 5, 2007: "The Blackwater investigation has fueled controversy about military contractors' abuses in Iraq. But it has also raised questions about where government whistleblowers can turn for protection."
See also this letter by Waxman: http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20070918105806.pdf
Where would this fit in to the current article structure? Should it perhaps be added to the section on the Congressional investigation?-- Pleasantville 00:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Pleasantville 10:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I was talking to a marine who was in Iraq (I don't know where), and his patrol witnessed Blackwater employees kill a little girl unprovoked, and the patrol arrested them on the spot. I asked him if it was an isolated incident, and he said "no, they do it all the time" and that these blackwater employees just go unlucky to have done it in the presence of a patrol. I'm sure he was exaggerating with "all the time" and probably meant that they are just known to do it. I know there was a video on the internet of some anonymous security contractors (not sure if they were Blackwater) taking pot-shots at cars on a freeway.
The fact that the marine who told me this was very conservative, of the mindset that "we shouldn't be in Iraq, we should just blow the f'in place up" and isn't the type to make up tall tales, and along with the fact that there was video released I'm inclined to believe there is something to what he said.
I would never add this to the article unless I could get it from a reliable published source. But I figure there has to be something published about it. That video was on the news for a while. Someone had to have investigated it. If a good source explaining the phenemenon could be found I think it would be good to add the info to the article. Brentt 02:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Ooh, that's a good story. I'm going to email it to all my friends! 129.92.250.41
I have seen the video, the security contractors are not taking "pot-shots" at cars, they are firing warning shots to alert cars that they are coming too close to the Blackwater convoy and will be fired on directly if they get any closer. This is not done callously, but to prevent suicide car bomb attackers from detonating next to the convoy. Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This may be true...but as a standard operating procedure the men and women operating under blackwater are liable for war crimes and courtmartials under both united states military codes of conduct and the geneva convention. I'll Tell you one thing, if any black water employees openly admit their alegance to that company in Our Country (USA) I will arrest them on the spot and take them to Abu Garb Myself...not a threat...a promise. Remember this: "Dead Men Learn not from their Mistakes" --THe Hare 8/oct/2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.100.189 ( talk) 08:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Not done callously, you're having a laugh aren't you. I've seen the video too more than one car veers off the road. One even slows down(in my opinion as if the driver has been killed or at least seriously injured) then veers off and hits another car, then the perpetrators have a good laugh about it. If thats not callous I don't know what is. I also wish to add a warning shot IS a pot shot, if live ammunition isn't fired at and stopped by a specific target, it keeps going until it either runs out of momentum and ends up on the ground, hits a solid object and either stops or richochets into something else, "accidentally" hits somebody minding their own business. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.116.201 ( talk) 06:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
The Blackwater USA page seems to be experiencing a high level of vandalism from unregistered users. Should we request that the page be protected for a short period of time? -- Pleasantville 19:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Not unless anyone says something really stupid like " Black tar heroin turns into blackwater when it is made ready for injection." That'd be bad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.244.163.71 ( talk) 17:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance and/or my paranoia, but what the heck is ebird.afis.mil? I can see that most of the links under "External links and references" are to this web site. At the moment these links do not work. (I assume they have worked previously...) As for my paranoia, why should it be necessary to go to an American web server run by the US military to read articles about Blackwater? Can friends of Blackwater in the military be collecting IP addresses for cross-referencing with other IP address sources to maybe profile those who are anti-military? Should I consider hiring a private security service to protect me from the, uh, no that probably isn't a good idea... :-( -- RenniePet 23:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
EARLY BIRD
Accessed from Non-military Networks
We are unable to verify that your computer is in the military network (.mil) domain. Please see the assistance page if your computer is actually in the .mil domain.
If you are a U.S. Servicemember, member of the Ready Reserve, or DoD employee, you may access Early Bird regardless of your location or network domain (for example, from home) by providing your Social Security number and Date of Birth in Early Bird login page located at DMDC.
Continue to the Early Bird Login page.
I'm really not sure. Cla68 added the first ones here I just found, I had to backtrack quite a ways for that. I'll ask him what is up with that on his talk page. • Lawrence Cohen 06:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Whereas I have, occasionally, accessed some .mil addresses, it seems that they are not always blocked. It seems that one possibility is, if a discrepancy is suspected, employ a machine that is not likely to have ever been registered to whichever website.
Many libraries seem to rinse the caches frequently.
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 14:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I updated Template:BlackwaterUSA a bit just now. Posting here to advertise that--what else would be appropriate for inclusion on the template? • Lawrence Cohen 18:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I've asked for very long term to permanent semi-protection for what is now an ultra high-profile article, given it's subject matter. The request is here, please weigh in with any support. • Lawrence Cohen 19:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
It just struck me that "Personnel" is a funny heading for a section that talks about the top executives. How about Executives, Management or Leadership? Incidentally, Robert Richer is no longer with Blackwater, at least not directly. [1] -- RenniePet 23:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
How many blackwater in Iraq? How many private military contractors total? Are these numbers anywhere?
IIRC, it's on the Iraq War page. Kensai Max 23:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a good idea to add some numbers to the opening section that defines what Blackwater is--i.e. roughly how many people they train per year, and who their major clients are. Mcwabaunsee 15:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Lawrence, the numbers are from a congressional report. I'm pretty sure those are only for Iraq and only for the department of state. No DOD contracts are included. I'll see if I need to clarify that Ticklemygrits 23:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
"Erik Prince's Blackwater suing the families of its slain employees for $10-million ea." -Note- The Daily Kos BLOG is not a Creditable Source or Reference for Citation especially when it itself does not provide a Citation for it's claims.
The following applies both to this article and to Blackwater USA businesses.
Under "External links and references" there is a link to www.blackwaterwatch.com, a site very critical of Blackwater.
In the interest of neutrality shouldn't there also be links to www.blackwaterfacts.com and/or www.blackwaterreporting.com?
I'm not experienced enough with Wikipedia to know what kinds of sites are acceptable as references and what are not, or I'd do it myself. -- RenniePet 22:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I object on the basis that both are anonymous blogs less that 2 months old that look to be part of some PR company's idea of damage control. They are really slight. -- Pleasantville 17:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Given the extent of Blackwater press coverage and the number of press links on the page, I'm not sure that Blackwaterwatch adds much, either. -- Pleasantville 17:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Having a look at 'Blackwaterfacts', they've got a link to this blog that seemed fairly neutral towards them. It's not soley on them but has some interesting stuff [2] Ticklemygrits 10:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
If anybody has the coordiantes for the Blackwater Training ground please put them in the article. Angelbo Talk / Contribs 19:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I think I found it: 850 Puddin Ridge Road in Moyock, North Carolina. This is borne out by observing the Google Map for the openness of the location relevant to the rest of Moyock, which is filled with streets--but that area isn't. I'm sure there are lots of RS mixed into that first Google search for 850 Puddin Ridge Road in Moyock, North Carolina. I don't think I'll have time to pull it out for the coordinates to confirm. • Lawrence Cohen 20:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
This link for county tax records may help turn up additional RS for this information. • Lawrence Cohen 20:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Confirmed RS: State of Virginia department of criminal justice services; Blackwater is at 850 Puddin Ridge Road in Moyock, North Carolina. Ton more to be found here, so that is settled. Another RS at: A Congressional record of a contract Blackwater has with the USA.
Is anyone any good at converting a street address to coordinates for the article, now that we can source this? • Lawrence Cohen 20:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Stability issues aside (which are now fixed by semi-protection, which should be extended when the current one ends next month), and aside from the references being messy and unevenly formatted, this looks really good now. Put it up for a GA review? • Lawrence Cohen 16:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I've thought a bit about my idea of reorganizing the topic structure, and here's my suggestion:
Contents - current structure
1 History
2 Corporate
3 Iraq involvement
4 Litigation
5 Post-Katrina involvement
6 Other employments
7 Controversy and criticism
8 Public relations
9 See also
10 Notes
11 External links and references
Contents - suggested structure
1 History
2 Iraq involvement
3 Non-Iraq operations
4 Litigation, controversy and criticism
5 Corporate
6 See also
7 Notes
8 External links and references
This reduces the number of top-level main topics from 8 to 5 and groups and orders things more logically.
Also, as a general comment, I think the article needs more non-controversial information about exactly what these guys are doing and where and for whom. Facts and figures and historical development, etc. Simple non-critical prose. Although I realize this may be difficult because they are rather tight-mouthed themselves, and most of the public information is about their screw-ups. -- RenniePet 21:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Since the blackwater is under the control of the government, Illuminati, I bet they are going to kill off any anti- illuminatist. Beware, those of you who woke up. Amphitere
The litigation section needs subheads or something distinguishing between cases, and perhaps a little more detail on incidents related to the litigation. It is hard to follow as it stands now because of lack of signposting. -- Pleasantville 12:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Blackwater USA is a company, how is this artical about a current event? i see no need for the tag, Boatman666 00:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
this company was featured on tonight's premier of "K-Ville" as "Blackriver Securities" who worked as assassins in New Orleans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arabianofelix ( talk • contribs) 01:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Not to mention numerous critical articles and news reports, e.g. DemocracyNow.org, Jeremy Scahill, et al. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.121.73 ( talk) 01:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Boatman666. No matter how much it may be related to or involved in current events, Blackwater USA is a company, not an event. If there is a more appropriate tag, maybe that should be used. Kriptyk 03:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I was about to concede defeat on this whole "are they or aren't they mercenaries" issue. But I see from the BBC [4] that they employ (amongst others) "231 third-country nationals ... to protect US state department in Iraq". What's the most military-like work that these "third-country nationals" are doing? If they are employing people, from countries not part of the conflict, to do miltary-type work, the final criteria for a mercenary group would be met. Evercat 02:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
They are mercenaries. If they weren't motivated by money, the Americans amongst them could join the US Army. And everyone agrees the foreigners are mercenaries. I'm not too fussed about it though. Contractor/mercenary, not much difference really both motivated by money. And what the hell is this? "International Peace Operations Association, a trade group representing Blackwater and other military contractors" Does that really exist??? Ticklemygrits 06:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Quite possible, if they were working as truck drivers or mechanics in the Chilean Army. Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
The more general issue is that the business model of the private military industry entails a new, more corporate stance intended to make the industry palatable to government and business in a way that "mercenaries" are not. -- Pleasantville 16:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The dictionary definitions are further up the page. After seeing a video with Doug Brooks and Scahill, it's pretty obvious Blackwater don't like the term. They seem to be using an unnecessarily stringant definition of 'mercenary' to deny that they are. But they fit the definition of any dictionary you can find. It's an interesting video, I'd love someone to find sources apart from Scahill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn0phnmsEOA&mode=related&search= Ticklemygrits 08:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC) PS in three parts
They are reported as mercenaries in the international (European, Australian) media. There was a reference to a Geneve convention paragraph that defined them as mercenaries, but I do not have the quote -- 212.213.204.99 10:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
One could use Erik Prince's remark from his congressional testimony regarding the use of the term mercenary (noted in his entry) as a counterpoint. (Otherwise such thing may be difficult to source.) -- Pleasantville 14:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The very fact that this discussion is happening reveals the rampant POV; the term "mercenary" is being debated not for its descriptive value, but for its pejorative value. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 03:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd add a "disputed neutrality" tag to this article but it would take me hours to identify and dispute all the extraneous information presented. Even if I did, one of you would probably use the Wiki-magic of "7 degrees of separation" to show how I "have ties to" certain irrelevant Republicans, and Big [insert industry here]. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 08:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
According to reference [58] Blackwater employees are not mercenaries under international law making media allegations erroneous and extraneous This is the edit summary that you've managed to ignore twice. Rebut or recuse (yourself). -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 09:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Unbelievable.
[5] Instead of providing a proper counterbalance to fact X, fact X was removed so that the improper counterbalance Y could remain in the article. --
Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 09:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC) Struck by me. --
Haizum μολὼν λαβέ
09:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I have made a report to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. -- Pleasantville 09:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: While I agree that it would be ideal if Haizum would explain specifics in the talk page, I also agree that his edit summaries are good enough. If he'd been asking us to wade thru a page of edit summaries or something to find an ancient edit summary then I would say this was unresonable. Also if someone doesn't check the history but checks the talk page and removes then I don't think the person could really be blamed for that. But I would presume that those reverting are reading the summaries given that they are using them. So IMHO it was a bit unresonable for Pleasantville to continually revert. Also I note that Haizum did come here and explain again why he was adding the POV-intro tag after the the reversions started. If pleasantvile doesn't agree with the view it's POV that's fine but IMHO proper behaviour is to discuss the issue and since it appears Haizum was willing to discuss the problem the tag should remain, at least for a while. Nil Einne 10:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I've edited the section to try an address POV concerns. It's true that ref 79 doesn't negate or directly address the fact that no one BW has been guarding has ever been seriously injured or killed so it was wrong for it to suggest it did. However it does provide context for the record and the equipement they carry and also provides a view on their behaviour in Iraq. Nil Einne 09:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that Haizum has a point. The fact that many of their people are technically not merceneries is relevant. The fact that they are widely considered merceneries is also relevent and I don't think this should be removed from the intro. I'm thinking of a way to address the issue here, mentioning the fact that most of their people may not be considered merceneries under international law without going into too much detail. In the mean time, please leave the tag. Also, see above for my view on the reversions Nil Einne 10:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay I've tried to summarise the mercenary bit. I don't think there's any need to go into the Chileans bit or the specifics of which laws. Nil Einne 10:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
In this case, I don't really agree with Haizum. However I did remove some stuff. I think it's barely relevant that Erik Prince's father was rich and not at all relevant that he invented the lighted car visor and died in 1995. The Christian bit is slightly relevant particularly given that he's operating in a number of Muslim countries but IMHO given it's seperate from his BW role, not enough. As for the other stuff well I removed the intern in GHWB White House bit. It's old enough that I don't think it's that relevant. However I agree with others that the donations are relevant as are his support for specific candidates. Especially since his company has directly benefited from contracts awarded by a government that these people are members of. Nil Einne 10:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Gee, Haizum, then what should we call no-bid contracts? "Competitive contracts"? There are lots of things in Wikipedia that can be generally viewed as a "negative thing", so shall we prune every article so nobody "looks negative" based on stated fact? Haizum, I'm not sure you understand how Wikipedia works, it's not for hit-jobs nor for sugar-coating... it's for relevant facts and letting the chips fall where they may. Quit attempting to rearrange the chips, it smells of agenda. Cowicide 08:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
So where else should BW's executives connection to government be documented in Wikipedia? Or do you just want this not to be widely known? Do you think they should be ashamed of their connections to Bush & co.? Niczar 11:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This page is supposed to be about the article on Blackwater USA, rather than Haizum's possible genders. I think I was the first (and perhaps only one) to use the word "emotional" to describe Haizum. If he has an issue with that, he should take it up on the ANI I initiated. -- Pleasantville 17:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Haizum, question: if not RS, what can we use to make this NPOV? Please detail for us? • Lawrence Cohen 21:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Heres a conservative source, the FT, heres an editorial [6] and heres the news coverage [7]. (Hypnosadist) 15:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC) And heres links between haliburton and blackwater [8]. (Hypnosadist) 15:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
(UTC)
Just a point here, the Financial Times is a British paper (but still the most read on wall street). (Hypnosadist) 18:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I apologize, I don't see how this is being helpful in any way. Posting here to notify all involved. My apologies. • Lawrence Cohen 22:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Just so everyone is clear, that weaponized ANI was fruitless. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 03:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe there's not a single mention of the Sept. 16th Nisoor Square massacre in this whole article. What's going on here? dariopy 13:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
This really needs a citation, especially with the extrapolation taken about the intent of the donation. -- arkalochori |talk| 07:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Mindboggling though this oxymoron be, perhaps The Blackwater Global Peace and Stability Operations Institute should be mentioned. -- Pleasantville 15:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
What do you guys think of my eliminating the subsections? I think it works better this way. I want to do something similar on other sections, but those look like they will be tougher. • Lawrence Cohen 23:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Guys, I think we have a great base of material (a lot of it, actually) to work off of, but the structure is the biggest problem I can readily see. Please check out:
User:Lawrence Cohen/sandbox/Blackwater USA
I started that just as a layout tool, on how we can possibly restructure this. I want to go for Featured Article, but we need GA first, then Peer. Lets take it all the way. We can be front page in a few months I bet. Please edit that sub page of mine--order, layout, projected length of a section. The length guesstimate is in case we'll need to adjust the layout further because of more forked child articles. Please take a whack at it. Once we hammer out a good layout and structure, we can jam that structure onto Blackwater USA, and then dive into a section-by-section cleanup. I was thinking we can re-do the layout there, instead of live, so that it's less messy. One person can then go in and do the major copy/paste work for the restructuring without us tripping on each other. • Lawrence Cohen 16:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Like Tickle mentioned above, I'm stuck on this one and where best to put all the current info (which is all good) and how to break it down. See here, and feel free to edit/change my sandbox at will. I think we need a controversy section--they are highly contentious and controversial, but beside that its the standard format of a lot of Wikipedia articles for that sort of thing to go in. What do you all think? Please take a whack at my test layout. • Lawrence Cohen 17:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Under the litigation section can be found a reference of slain Blackwater contractors' families testimony to Congress regarding drafting of laws governing DoD contractors.
These laws already exist.
Blackwater is under contract with the State Department.
As for the diasambiguation page, politics and newsworthiness have no place in an encyclopedia. Blackwater is black water is Blackwater.
The reference section, btw, is similar to using Westlaw for cooking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.199.180.164 ( talk) 10:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is getting big again. Possible options:
I'm inclined to say the operations one, first. It will likely grow the most, besides the legal. This article could well spawn yet more of these. Thoughts? I'd be willing to do the heavy lifting in a few days again. • Lawrence Cohen 14:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Should this page be moved to Blackwater Worldwide given the name change? Tmaull 14:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The "See Also" is blatantly POV. It won't be long before "military-industrial complex" and "fascist" are added to that list. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 06:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
What about 'Search and Avoid Missions' in Iraq. I don't like Blackwater, but to be fair it's worth noting why such organizations can thrive in hostile Zones. Why, because it's dangerous and nobody on a soldiers salary would do it.
See this Article: (scroll to bottom of article for summary)
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/66160?page=2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Byzantine Dragon ( talk • contribs) 07:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I completely admit to my naivete in knowing how to do this, but here I go: First and foremost, my dislosure: I have written extensively on the topic of Modern PMCs and Blackwater in particular; I wrote my MA thesis on the topic. That said, I would not claim to be an experrt and as such my word should not be taken as gospel. 1)I take issue with the "no-bid contract" mentioned in paragraph 2. Though Blackwater has undoubtedly received no bid contracts, as Erik Prince noted himsel in his testimony before congress the vast majority were bid via the typical government contracting process. The article cited says that 2/3 of those being looked at were no-bid, not all contracts; furthermore, I take issue with the ability to actually differentitate between no bid contracts and the actual process of writing a "catalog entry," and the government then choosing. Either way, the entry is misleading.
2)I take much more significant issue with the citation of the $445,000/year in the second paragraph. later in the entry there is a discussion of Erik Prince's refuting this number as outlandish, this should either be included in the second paragraph or the number should be excluded. Simply because Congressman Waxman, not exactly a non-biased source, creates this number, doesn't make it legitimate.
3)Within the Iraq War section: Blackwater is not protecting The American Embassy per se. It is more accurate to say that they are guarding US Embassy Personell, as the US Military is largely responsible for guarding the Green Zone in which the Embassy is contained. Blackwater is famous, or infamous, not for standing around guarding a gate, but running around with State Dept. employees.
4)Post Citation 37, the article would benefit from some explanation as to the higher numbers of fire first incidents and the placement of 195 engagements within the thousands of operations they have run. Even Chairman Waxman included this in his report.
5)In regards to the picking up the injured US Marine; three things would be worth noting: 1)that this was outside the realm of their contractual obligations, in other words they did it because they wanted to save a fellow American, 2) the pilots who did this were chastised for doing so because it was outside their contractual obligation (see RYP Licensed to Kill), 3)according to Erik Prince as least come ground elements in Baghdad carry the Blackwater Helos call signs to come bail them out when necessary
6)After the notation of Blackwater pulling out of IPOA, it would be worth noting that Blackwater is forming their own organizaiton, including holding a conference to deal with similar issues the Doug Brooks and IPOA normally deal with.
7)After citation number 68, in the discussion of Erik Prince's rebuttal to the characterization of his men as mercenaries; he also defined mercenary as Foreigners hired into military service. It could be noted that while the average blackwater employee, being american, is not by his own characterization a mercenary, those chileans or third party nationals blackwater hires are in fact mercenaries.
Overall, I would say that the article is biased against Blackwater, which of course is not difficult to understand given the current public opinion of Blackwater; however, I think these changes could be beneficial in making it more neutral. Wnegley 10:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The link to Charlie Black links to a stub for a basket ball player born in 1920. I don't know but I don't think that this is the same Charlie Black. Ender8282 23:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
After an incident on September 16, 2007 when a Blackwater team guarding a State Department convoy in Baghdad fatally shot 17 Iraqis near a bustling traffic circle, Blackwater unveiled a new logo.
After an incident on September 16, 2007 when a Blackwater team guarding a State Department convoy in Baghdad fatally shot 17 Iraqis near a bustling traffic circle is still in the section and has no business being there without proof that the change was made due to the incident itself. The fact that you can't see this as being a problem means you should recuse yourself. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 06:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Lauren Miller, the owner of MDesign, a graphic design firm in New York, commented on the logo change, "“I would say it’s a highly significant change; they’re repositioning themselves. The old logo suggests that they’re targeting people. The new logo is a more ambiguous, more safe corporate logo.”
Alright, the article is now marginally acceptable to me. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 07:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
resetting the indents
Hmm, there seems to be a strange interpretation of policy operating here. We don't evaluate third party articles for NPOV, original research, etc. We do evaluate the publishers of such articles for reliability, and the New York Times news pages clearly meet those standards; in fact, they fall in the top tier of journalistic sources.
When there is more than one side to a controversy, we try to identify which viewpoints there are, so we can present them in rough proportion to their significance. In this case, there does not appear to be much of a controversy within reliable sources; an editor may personally disagree with the content of the NYT piece but this does not a controversy make. So using roughly the same viewpoint and conclusions of the Times piece is not a problem.
Using the exact language (Jim Bean's, etc) would be problematic, since the NYT is a newspaper and writes its articles in a certain narrative voice which may be inappropriate for an encyclopedia. However, that does not seem to be the issue here - nobody is suggesting, so far as I can see, that we should say something like "The old lettering resembled the font used on bottles of inexpensive whiskey[29]".
Can we discuss, specifically, what language in the encyclopedia article is questioned, rather than perform a blog-style Fisking of the NYT piece? < eleland/ talk edits> 17:21, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
has individually expressed ongoing concerns in the past month about his perceived view of the neutrality of the article Blackwater Worldwide. In particular, the Logo section is the current point of contention. Haizum argues that the New York Times article, "Blackwater Softens Its Logo From Macho to Corporate" is a biased and individualy a possibly unacceptable source for information on Blackwater USA changing it's logo recently. From reading the entirety of this article talk page, he has also expressed that the article does not meet NPOV standards. An extensive review would be appreciated by outside eyes, as traffic on this talk page has significantly dropped, as the article has stabilized, except for User:Haizum's concerns. Aside from his concerns and some citation formatting clean-up, there is no other hold up now to starting this article on the GA/FA path, and we need to get this conclusively addressed. So, two issues to be addressed: 1. Review of that NYT article, and the logo section; and 2. the overall neutrality of this article, Blackwater Worldwide: is it fine? If not, why? !! time=21:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)}}
Reason for RfC: Haizum ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has individually expressed ongoing concerns in the past month about his perceived view of the neutrality of the article Blackwater Worldwide. In particular, the Logo section is the current point of contention. Haizum argues that the New York Times article, " Blackwater Softens Its Logo From Macho to Corporate" is a biased and individualy a possibly unacceptable source for information on Blackwater USA changing it's logo recently. From reading the entirety of this article talk page, he has also expressed that the article does not meet NPOV standards. An extensive review would be appreciated by outside eyes, as traffic on this talk page has significantly dropped, as the article has stabilized, except for User:Haizum's concerns. Aside from his concerns and some citation formatting clean-up, there is no other hold up now to starting this article on the GA/FA path, and we need to get this conclusively addressed. So, two issues to be addressed: 1. Review of that NYT article, and the logo section; and 2. the overall neutrality of this article, Blackwater Worldwide: is it fine? If not, why?
Please also read Talk:Blackwater_Worldwide#Logo directly above this section, for more background and discussion of the merits (or lack) of this source and section. • Lawrence Cohen 21:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Haizum, take a look at this. • Lawrence Cohen 05:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I've been staring at the article for the past few days, as its not up to 65kb in size, which is too large. Theres not really a practical way to fork off a section yet, though, unfortunately. We can't do Blackwater Worldwide in Iraq, as that would functionally be the whole article. We shouldn't do Blackwater Worldwide controversies, unless that gets so overwhelming we have no choice--but thats a ways off. Blackwater Worldwide operations is probably the best bet, but needs more meat.
We have a ton of sources in the article not properly citation formatted, I'm going to start up on that again this week. So we can get 1-7 done. We also need to integrate all the sources that are listed under external links that Cla68 added. Beyond that, there is going to a huge amount of additional sources, especially as the arms smuggling investigations around Krongard have progressed in Congress, and the Nisoor Square killings have turned into an international lawsuit. Nisoor square will be a very long article on its own before all is said and done. So, short to-do list:
Am I missing anything? Other areas of interest that merit a section on the article? List them all; we can always add them here first then ship them off in detail to the other articles, while leaving a reference here on this one. Lawrence Cohen 14:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
before anybody makes anymore changes concerning mercenary and contractors, put down on this page why it should be one or the other. I personally believe they are more like mercenaries and in the traditional sense of the word, they are mercenaries but they are referred to as contractors.
Perhaps we'll jsut call them contractors and put a note saying that while they are called contractors, they are mercenaries or something like that.
Bubbleboys 22:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
they are mercenaries and they are contractors in both senses they are mercenaries because they have units that are paid and combat trained that go in "battle" (some even died in iraq) and they're contractors because they are contracted out by the gov't to do other tasks like logistics/integrated communications stc. they are also able to contract out themselves hopefully this will help you with your disagrement also check out their website [www.blackwaterusa.com]
errm, can someone add more relating to there new found role in helping out with the NO disaster as mentioned here http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091005A.shtml (very biased) and on there homepage http://www.blackwaterusa.com
I have added a brief rehash of Blackwater's press release and Jeremy Scahill's article. Nick
My father works for the company, so i had the pleasure of touring the grounds. they are trained to protect highly visible VIP's, not "attack" front line enemy troops. This article has a lot of bias, but even bias has its citable sources. Ill see if i can get some good info from my father and maybe hellp make this article better Sponge1354 02:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Sponge, you hardly sound like an objective source. You saw a very small part of a very large organization. Ask your father about extraordinary renditions to Eastern Europe, or "interrogation techniques" at Abu Graib. ----Rawckuf.
the company says blatantly on it's website that you must be a US citized to apply there. therefore, unless someone can provide some evidence that blackwater does indeed hire (not just work with...remember people: multinational force in iraq, americans work WITH people from other nations all the time) non US citizens, the line regarding the term mercenary being correct only for non US citizens, i'm deleting the sentence. oh, one more thing to be deleted is the statement regarding 'private security contractors aroused anger in iraq'. it is not specifically citing blackwater, so why is it there? you wouldn't put a blurb about wal-marts worker comp fraud on k-mart's page, would you?
Would you consider BBC as a reliable source? See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7008058.stm for referrence to "231 third country nationals and 12 Iraqis" Pustelnik 17:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Blackwater hired Chilean commandos. They have an entity based in the barbados which manages their foreign mercs. -- KaliqX 07:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
It's obvious that they are mercenaries. That should be in the first sentence on the page. I assume the only reason it's not in the first sentence is because of blackwater employee's who wiki-propaganda. -- firefight 18:00, 19 Sept 2007 (UTC)
User:Lawrence Cohen claims that there is "consensus" on the use of the term "mercenary". Frankly, I don't see any such consenus.-- Davidwiz 22:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC) Just because some newpaper reporters use the word "mercenary" doesn't mean that Blackwater is.
It is far more common for reliable sources to refer to Blackwater employees simply as "employees" or "contractors". It seems incredibly P.O.V. to apply the highly negative term "mercenary" to Blackwater employees objectively firstly because it is not clear that they are acting as soldiers. The company defines their role in Iraq and other places they are contracted by the US govt as being security guards or bodyguards. When they have been involved in violent actions, they have been protecting a convoy carrying some civilian diplomat or businessman, not a military action. Secondly, for them to be mercenaries they would have to be soldiers fighting for a foreign government. Blackwater USA is staffed by US citizens working on behalf of the US govt in a US conflict, so the term mercenary again doesn't make sense. Jeremy Scahill has been the most vocal critic of Blackwater, and he has alleged that Blackwater hired Chileans or other non-US nationals to work in Iraq. If those Chileans worked as soldiers rather than simply as guards or logistical workers, then those Chileans could be called mercenaries, but only those Chileans. Scahill does not seem to be an objective source here, based on his extremely POV interviews on the partisan site Democracy Now. Scahill and virtually every source that refers to Blackwater with the pejorative term mercenary are opposed to the US invasion/occupation of Iraq and usage of this term seems to be more an expression of dislike for the US actions in Iraq than a sincere judgement that Blackwater employees are fighting for the highest bidder. Nearly all regular soldiers expect compensation, both in salary and often benefits as well. But a mercenary is one who will fight for any army at all, with no concern for any particular cause except his own financial gain. Walterego 09:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
i cannot make contributions yet, but i think it would be appropriate for someone to add the following the in the "controversial" section. it should be noted the scary similarities between blackwater and the nazi SS, here is one referance- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen_SS
above the law, "to protect political people", best of the best personnel,... and cold blooded killers like many others have pointed out.
thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blacksheepwiggins ( talk • contribs) 09:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
i hadn't thought of it as "viewpoint". rather, a factual mirror of how the 2 are the same. aside from only the point in time in which they exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.43.230.70 ( talk) 21:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I would just like to state that I think the term "Mercenaries" should be removed from the infobox. Its fine to point out that BW is called a mercenary organization by many sources, as long as both sides of the argument are given, but its not OK in the infobox. Private security is fairly nuanced, and yes, its easier to label a company a merc outfit than it is to explain the shades of grey, so sure, label them a merc outfit, but not in the infobox where theres not going to be any discussion on it. Its intellectually lazy. Tmaull ( talk) 01:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Before I would violate 3RR, I would like to expand on this but while people have criticized Blackwater USA to be a mercenary organization but what people failed to realize is that Blackwater USA / Worldwide is predominantly hired by the United States to carry out missions protecting diplomats. They do not participate in direct warfare as mercenary organizations are hired to do. Executive Outcome would be a good example of a mercenary organization because they were hired to carry out an agenda in direct warfare for which the host country desired. For example, the Polish ambassador in Iraq was attacked in October 2007 and Blackwater USA was assigned to protect him which they did carry out the job and brought the ambassador out safely. While the controversy over Blackwater being discussed as a mercenary organization, they are predominantly US Nationals under United States rules rather than their organization rules. I read through all the 5 source which all of them are Opinion/Ed articles but nothing based on NGO or official government assigned terms. Blackwater Worldwide is recognized by the UN and United States as a Private Military Company but not designated as a mercenary company. People will disagree that they are indeed mercenary but you have to prove that that they are fighting on behalf of a host country in direct warfare. Would you say a bodyguard assigned to an ambassador who is paid by the same organization is also a mercenary in another country? Thank you. ViriiK ( talk) 01:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi ViriiK. I agree that the legal definition is significant in and of itself, but at the same time, we don't adhere to that per our sourcing policies. That is, if a law states that person x is profession y, that is fine. But, at the same time, we have multiple international reputable sources that all refer to Blackwater as a mercenary corporation, which is ultimately what we are required by Wikipedia policies to go with. A discussion on Blackwater as mercenaries is definitely interesting, but unfortunately it doesn't change what we can do. You might want to read WP:SYN, which is policy:
That is what would be happening here. We have sources that say Blackwater is x type of agent or guard or soldier. We have sources that say x type of agent or guard or soldier according to this set of laws may or may not be a mercenary. The problem is, as far as Blackwater goes, we have a variety of international 3rd party independent sources that refer to them as mercenaries. Thats all we can do, as well. Lawrence Cohen 02:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Prince did indeed confirm that on live television. Lawrence Cohen 18:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, not only Prince confirmed this, but the State Department and Congress during the hearings. This is what Black Water was operating on, a no-bid contract. This is a common thing with government contracts when a specific item is needed in a specific amount of time. Mustang Six Zero 02:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
No, totally agree with you on that. That is an issue I have always had with the whole thing is people are quick to jump on the no-bid(bad thing, evil, must point to something wrong bandwagon) when in reality it goes on a lot, is part of the process, and Blackwater is not the first nor the last contractor that has utilized no-bid. Mustang Six Zero 06:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
We would need sourcing for the counter views, but I've got no problem adding them in. We shouldn't use primary sources right from Prince or BW corporate, though. Secondary sources are needed. But I certainly have no problem adding them. When I did a first pass of working on the sourcing here I added stuff along those lines. If possible, lets do fact and citation tags on unsourced bits first? All the material here is sourceable from rereading this many times, and easily, it just looks like some was added some time ago willy nilly. The article truthfully can be another 1/2 again as long, and will be once I begin expanding it out next month. Unless others beat me to the punch. The article is actually pretty darn neutral, as virtually everyone here has commented. The problem, thoughh, is that BW is a very secretive company, so something like 95% of the press coverage, reporting, and book work is negative in tone: thats all the world gets to see.
Unfortunately, due to BW's secretive nature, that is the tone the article has to take, but that is in line with NPOV as well. If only bad things exist that are reported on, we can only report on bad things. I recently picked up a copy of Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army, which has literally thousands of citations on basically anything and everything Blackwater. Once I get going through it this article should expand exponentially. There will be a ton of great information. I was thinking of bringing this to Featured Article status, but in hindsight I can see at least 1-2 articles of that length and hopeful quality, and a few others bringing up the rear behind that. Lawrence Cohen 07:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Are they named after sewage or what? -- RucasHost ( talk) 16:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reason this edit was reverted? It appears to be sourced. - Tmaull ( talk) 15:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
BLACKWATER USA IS AN "INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST" ORGANIZATION, AS DEFINED IN 18 USC 2331, ET SEQ.
The above statement that claims,"BLACKWATER USA IS AN "INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST" ORGANIZATION, AS DEFINED IN 18 USC 2331, ET SEQ." is completely false. The US Code collection can be found at the following link: [11]
(1) the term “international terrorism” means activities that— (A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum;
The purpose of wikipedia.com is to pass along "facts" to those seeking answers and to those who believe in researching something before formulating an opinion. This article was mostly spin and biased towards one-side. How is anyone going to gain any kind of knowledge on something that is so obviously filled with controvertable "facts"? I hope people will take the time to truly research the Blackwater company before formulating a perception, especially based on this article.
The villain in the recent Knight Rider TV movie was "Blackriver security", a firm with contracts in Iraq... AnonMoos ( talk) 06:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
WP:Good article usage is a survey of the language and style of Wikipedia editors in articles being reviewed for Good article nomination. It will help make the experience of writing Good Articles as non-threatening and satisfying as possible if all the participating editors would take a moment to answer a few questions for us, in this section please. The survey will end on April 30.
At any point during this review, let us know if we recommend any edits, including markup, punctuation and language, that you feel don't fit with your writing style. Thanks for your time. - Dan
Dank55 (
talk)(
mistakes)
03:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I've started reviewing this, but I'm afraid I'll have to finish tomorrow night. Sorry! I have some thoughts already though, figured I'd give them so you can get working on them. Most are very minor and won't stop it passing; however, the citation issues do need to be dealt with before it can pass. I've included even very minor issues that you may want to have dealt with before going to FAC.
This is just a start, I'll have more in a bit. delldot on a public computer talk 10:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
More:
More to follow. Once again, the only really serious problems are the citation issues. delldot on a public computer talk 10:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Hitting save now, more to follow. delldot on a public computer talk 01:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
More:
I'm putting this on hold for now. The main problems I see are the citations needed, which have been tagged, the flow issues needing some reorganization, and a few NPOV things. The other stuff I mentioned would be nice to get fixed but aren't deal breakers.
I feel like I've been exceedingly harsh here; you've really done a great job with a very difficult topic, getting all the info in and keeping it NPOV for the most part. Definitely keep up the good work, there's nothing here to stop this from becoming a GA and beyond once these main issues are fixed. I'm glad to help however I can, definitely keep me posted and let me know if I can offer any clarification or other aid. delldot on a public computer talk 02:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
THIS PAGE IS RIFE WITH WEAZEL WORDS!!!! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.246.155.104 (
talk)
14:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 10:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This article is arguably the worst in Wiki history. The first paragraph alone is not only poorly written but also almost entirely (and heavily) POV. The inclusion of so many anti-Blackwater talking points just in the first 500 words is appalling for an alleged "encyclopedia," even by Wikipedia's usually shoddy standards. When people laugh at Wikipedia ... this article illustrates precisely why.
If any of you actually care about journalistic integrity and want Wikipedia to look something like a real encyclopedia, go grab one - a real encyclopedia - and check how they treat the subject. Then erase this whole article and start over. Begin the entire first section with NPOV, objective description. Since you won't be able to help yourself from including your bias, add those in later sections on controversy and criticism.
As it reads now, this is a one-sided embarrassment. I don't care how deep you are in your own brand of Kool-Aid, you should be able to recognize just how bad this article truly is. Imagine an article on President Clinton that begins with the alleged murder of Vince Foster and several alleged rapes, before going on to point out that he was the 42nd President. That's precisely how biased this article is.
74.185.105.135 ( talk) 11:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you. This article obviously is biased and I think needs to be rewritten. It seems to consist of all the controversial actions of this company but doesn't include much history of the company. Also, the Najaf incident could be detailed more.
Alot of material on Wikipedia that is about private military companies is controversial and needs to be rewritten from a neutral view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 23:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
It's cute how all the IPs are chiming in. The only reason Blackwater is notable is because of the controversy they create. Be serious. Tool2Die4 ( talk) 01:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
-Anonymous user again-With the current article, it tells the reader that Blackwater Worldwide (when it's actually Blackwater Security Consulting-a division of Blackwater Worldwide) mostly about Blackwater's contracts and operations in Iraq. I think that there should be information about Blackwater's state of the art training facility (some of the best targets in the world and a complex simulation of a school crisis situation) and also Blackwater's contracts throughout the world (training the Georgeian military, guarding the oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea-see Caspian Guard-, and they were recently in a contract that would put them in South America to fight drug cartels.
This article needs to be rewritten so that it is not biased at all and completely informative, just like what an encylopedia article should be written like. The current article just presents information that leaves the leader with a biased opinion of Blackwater. Does anybody understand what I'm trying to say? Thanks, I'm just trying to help make Wikipedia better in topics that I know alot about and have a strong interest for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 08:47, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok I will be putting some stuff in very soon. I ask that somebody reviews what I wrote to make sure it is formatted correctly and meet's Wikipedia's standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 18:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I just put some stuff in. I couldn't figure out how to cite it correclty so my sources are within the article. Help please in fixing that. I just noticed that my edits do not appear. I am unfamiliar with how editting works but I'm assuming it's being reviewed by somebody.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 18:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
There was some recent vandalism with critisicism against Blackwater that violated several of Wikipedia's rules. I deleted the vandalism.
Also, I made some changes but they were deleted reffering to Caspian Guard. I'm going to rewrite Caspian Guard with better citations so it hopefully meets Wikipedia's requirements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.14.14 ( talk) 07:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
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