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On 9 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Denylist (computing). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Add this, please. -- 2601:E:280:13AF:3DDE:51E8:9D1E:4369 ( talk) 01:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Who supplies and maintains such blacklists? -- 113.28.129.54 ( talk) 04:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Various IT companies are choosing to no longer use BlackList / WhiteList and are switching to DenyList AllowList. Do we need to have a controversy section on this page? https://thepostmillennial.com/twitter-blacklists-the-term-blacklist-and-other-racist-terms. 104.158.189.50 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:36, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
References
The controversy has been be more visible in tech. Still, doesn't this controversial part belong to the more general Blacklisting article ? Maybe right after "Origin of the term", in a section named "Evolution of usage" ? Thanks. Cgo ( talk) 17:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works 20:25, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Blacklist (computing) →
Denylist – There were a previous discussion above in the section "BlackList Controversy". A reason is that Wikipedia also provides influence on the usage of terms. The idea would be to have the article named Denylist or Blocklist, but still have the term Blacklist mentioned in the article. —
Arthurfragoso (
talk)
19:40, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Blacklist (computing) → Denylist (computing) – Changing the proposal to Denylist (computing) as there are many Blacklist articles that we don't know their fate yet, such as: Blacklisting, Blacklist (employment), Software blacklisting,.. — Arthurfragoso ( talk) 20:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
--
I acknowledge I may be in a bubble, and the consensus here leans against a move. I took the time to read and think about all the arguments and search for more data. Even as the consensus doesn't change, I will provide more data and arguments, as if this is not approved this time, this topic will probably be brought up again in the future.
Searching on google, the number of results it says for each term are:
black list: 15.8B blacklist: 216M "black list" - 12.8M Block list: 8.4B blocklist: 30M "Block list": 7M Deny list: 504M Denylist: 258K "Deny list" - 120k whitelist - 101M allowlist - 7.5M
And Github results:
blocklist - 9.5M
[4]
blacklist - 3M
[5]
denylist - 90.4k
[6]
whitelist - 3.9M
[7]
allowlist - 440k
[8]
We see that there are more results for "blacklist" in Google, followed up by blocklist and denylist. Take in consideration that the result for blacklist contains results for books and tv shows. And in Github there are actually more "blocklist" than "blacklist". So, a takeaway is that blocklist is much more common than denylist if we were to rename the article.
Also, let's take in consideration that the major players have adopted the new terms. Aside from Google [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] and Microsoft [14], there is also Cisco that plays a major influence on Computer Networking, [15] [16] noting that I also found an article that indicate Cisco started adopting those terms long before (2016). [17]
There is also a IETF draft (that doesn't carry much weight while still only a draft, but sharing nonetheless): [18]
- Now addressing the question that original meaning may have not being from a racist origin (although disputed, see the notes from Douglas Harper [19] mentioned in [20] (it also mentions other papers and scholars, we can dive deeper in this question to improve the articles later)), even if those were not the original etymology, those words can still be associated with other events in history and carry negative weight. I personally find those terms quite offensive. I also know we can communicate about offensive words without being offensive, it is described well in Wikipedia:Offensive material, and I think, even if we keep the article title, we would have to rewrite some content of the article so it would be less offensive. Google also mentions this when dealing with code and commands that haven't updated the terms. [21] ("If the command or code that you're documenting uses one of these words, then use the words only in direct reference to the code items (formatted as code), and make it clear what you're referring to.") We can also see this workaround in the FreeBSD documentation about a firewall named "blacklistd". [22] [23] (it seems unmaintained [24])
The Wikipedia rule that I find most difficult to argument against is the MOS:NEO mentioned by @ AjaxSmack ( talk · contribs), as the word "blacklist" is indeed much older. — Arthurfragoso ( talk) 03:06, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
Company statements | |
---|---|
IBM | August 19, 2020. - Big call for action. Words Matter: Driving Thoughtful Change Toward Inclusive Language in Technology |
Microsoft | Nov 2, 2017 - Consider alternatives where possible.
[25]
January 15, 2021- [26] - Never use blacklist. Use blocklist instead. [27] January 15, 2021 - Never use whitelist. Use allowlist instead. [28] |
Don't use blacklist, whitelist, and graylist. Instead, use more precise terms that are appropriate for your domain.
[29]
- For the noun blacklist, consider using a replacement such as denylist, excludelist, or blocklist. - For the noun whitelist, consider using a replacement such as allowlist, trustlist, or safelist. - For the noun graylist (greylist), consider using a replacement such as provisional list. Terms such as “blacklist” and “whitelist” reinforce the notion that black==bad and white==good. That Word Black, by Langston Hughes illustrates this problem in a lighthearted, if somewhat pointed way. These terms can usually be replaced by “blocklist” and “allowlist” without changing their meanings, but particular instances may need other replacements. [30] Allowlist URLs - [31] Jun 12 2020 - [U: Android too] Google Chrome team moving away from the words ‘blacklist’ and ‘whitelist’ to be more inclusive | |
Apple | blacklist/whitelist (n., v.) Don’t use. For the noun, use an alternative that’s appropriate to the context, such as deny list/allow list, deny list/permit list, unapproved list/approved list, or reject list/accept list. [32] |
Cloudflare | A blocklist is a list of items (usually websites, IP addresses, email addresses, etc.) that are prevented from accessing a system.
[33]
An allowlist list of items (usually websites, IP addresses, email addresses, etc.) that are permitted to access a system. [34] |
Linux | 04 Jul 2020 - proposal
[35]
10 Jul 2020 - approval [36] [37] +Recommended replacements for 'blacklist/whitelist' are: + 'denylist / allowlist' + 'blocklist / passlist' |
Kaspersky | Allowlists and denylists -
[38]
Denylist (sometimes referred as blocklist, formerly known as blacklist) is a list of sites, programs, or other elements that are not allowed to be started or visited. (...) [39] - Since about Jan 2020 (comparing on web.archive) One method of filtering spam, an allowlist (formerly known as whitelist) provides a list of legitimate e-mail addresses or domain names: all messages from allowlisted addresses or domains are automatically passed on to the intended recipient. - [40] |
Cisco Talos | June 23, 2020 - While we acknowledge it is a small change, Cisco Talos is moving to replace our use of the terms "blacklist" and "whitelist" with "block list" and "allow list.” [41] |
Cisco | Safelist/Blocklist -
[42]
IP Allow/Block List - [43] |
SAP | Avoid "blacklist", as well as any compound words containing "black" that denote something bad or negative, such as black rating. Possible replacements: blocklist, exclude list, avoid list.
Examples of acceptable terms that include "black": blackout period, blackbox testing. Avoid "whitelist", as well as any compound words containing "white" that denote something good or positive, such as white rating. Possible replacements: allow list, include list, prefer list. Examples of acceptable terms that include "white": white paper, whitebox testing, whitespace. [44] |
Amazon / AWS ???
(Partially) |
Amazon engineers are collaborating on an internal Wiki page that shows how to replace unconsciously racist and gender-biased terms with more inclusive language.
Although it's not an official mandate by the leadership team, managers are encouraging employees to review the page, which is available companywide, according to people familiar with the effort. It also says "blacklist" has a racial stigma attached to it and should be replaced by "Blocklist" or "approved." [45] According to this page, their internal wiki is located at Alternative Phrasings to Unconscious Bias in Communication Wiki (Alexa Team). But searching their documentation, there are much mixed content: Blacklist - [46] Blocklist - CDK - Interface IFirewallDomainListProps |
Broadcom | Deny List / Allow List
[47]
Allowed list / Denied list [48] |
Whitelist -> Allowlist
Blacklist -> Denylist [49] | |
Meta | Block lists / Allow lists [50] |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||
|
On 9 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Denylist (computing). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Add this, please. -- 2601:E:280:13AF:3DDE:51E8:9D1E:4369 ( talk) 01:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Who supplies and maintains such blacklists? -- 113.28.129.54 ( talk) 04:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Various IT companies are choosing to no longer use BlackList / WhiteList and are switching to DenyList AllowList. Do we need to have a controversy section on this page? https://thepostmillennial.com/twitter-blacklists-the-term-blacklist-and-other-racist-terms. 104.158.189.50 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:36, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
References
The controversy has been be more visible in tech. Still, doesn't this controversial part belong to the more general Blacklisting article ? Maybe right after "Origin of the term", in a section named "Evolution of usage" ? Thanks. Cgo ( talk) 17:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works 20:25, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Blacklist (computing) →
Denylist – There were a previous discussion above in the section "BlackList Controversy". A reason is that Wikipedia also provides influence on the usage of terms. The idea would be to have the article named Denylist or Blocklist, but still have the term Blacklist mentioned in the article. —
Arthurfragoso (
talk)
19:40, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Blacklist (computing) → Denylist (computing) – Changing the proposal to Denylist (computing) as there are many Blacklist articles that we don't know their fate yet, such as: Blacklisting, Blacklist (employment), Software blacklisting,.. — Arthurfragoso ( talk) 20:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
--
I acknowledge I may be in a bubble, and the consensus here leans against a move. I took the time to read and think about all the arguments and search for more data. Even as the consensus doesn't change, I will provide more data and arguments, as if this is not approved this time, this topic will probably be brought up again in the future.
Searching on google, the number of results it says for each term are:
black list: 15.8B blacklist: 216M "black list" - 12.8M Block list: 8.4B blocklist: 30M "Block list": 7M Deny list: 504M Denylist: 258K "Deny list" - 120k whitelist - 101M allowlist - 7.5M
And Github results:
blocklist - 9.5M
[4]
blacklist - 3M
[5]
denylist - 90.4k
[6]
whitelist - 3.9M
[7]
allowlist - 440k
[8]
We see that there are more results for "blacklist" in Google, followed up by blocklist and denylist. Take in consideration that the result for blacklist contains results for books and tv shows. And in Github there are actually more "blocklist" than "blacklist". So, a takeaway is that blocklist is much more common than denylist if we were to rename the article.
Also, let's take in consideration that the major players have adopted the new terms. Aside from Google [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] and Microsoft [14], there is also Cisco that plays a major influence on Computer Networking, [15] [16] noting that I also found an article that indicate Cisco started adopting those terms long before (2016). [17]
There is also a IETF draft (that doesn't carry much weight while still only a draft, but sharing nonetheless): [18]
- Now addressing the question that original meaning may have not being from a racist origin (although disputed, see the notes from Douglas Harper [19] mentioned in [20] (it also mentions other papers and scholars, we can dive deeper in this question to improve the articles later)), even if those were not the original etymology, those words can still be associated with other events in history and carry negative weight. I personally find those terms quite offensive. I also know we can communicate about offensive words without being offensive, it is described well in Wikipedia:Offensive material, and I think, even if we keep the article title, we would have to rewrite some content of the article so it would be less offensive. Google also mentions this when dealing with code and commands that haven't updated the terms. [21] ("If the command or code that you're documenting uses one of these words, then use the words only in direct reference to the code items (formatted as code), and make it clear what you're referring to.") We can also see this workaround in the FreeBSD documentation about a firewall named "blacklistd". [22] [23] (it seems unmaintained [24])
The Wikipedia rule that I find most difficult to argument against is the MOS:NEO mentioned by @ AjaxSmack ( talk · contribs), as the word "blacklist" is indeed much older. — Arthurfragoso ( talk) 03:06, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
Company statements | |
---|---|
IBM | August 19, 2020. - Big call for action. Words Matter: Driving Thoughtful Change Toward Inclusive Language in Technology |
Microsoft | Nov 2, 2017 - Consider alternatives where possible.
[25]
January 15, 2021- [26] - Never use blacklist. Use blocklist instead. [27] January 15, 2021 - Never use whitelist. Use allowlist instead. [28] |
Don't use blacklist, whitelist, and graylist. Instead, use more precise terms that are appropriate for your domain.
[29]
- For the noun blacklist, consider using a replacement such as denylist, excludelist, or blocklist. - For the noun whitelist, consider using a replacement such as allowlist, trustlist, or safelist. - For the noun graylist (greylist), consider using a replacement such as provisional list. Terms such as “blacklist” and “whitelist” reinforce the notion that black==bad and white==good. That Word Black, by Langston Hughes illustrates this problem in a lighthearted, if somewhat pointed way. These terms can usually be replaced by “blocklist” and “allowlist” without changing their meanings, but particular instances may need other replacements. [30] Allowlist URLs - [31] Jun 12 2020 - [U: Android too] Google Chrome team moving away from the words ‘blacklist’ and ‘whitelist’ to be more inclusive | |
Apple | blacklist/whitelist (n., v.) Don’t use. For the noun, use an alternative that’s appropriate to the context, such as deny list/allow list, deny list/permit list, unapproved list/approved list, or reject list/accept list. [32] |
Cloudflare | A blocklist is a list of items (usually websites, IP addresses, email addresses, etc.) that are prevented from accessing a system.
[33]
An allowlist list of items (usually websites, IP addresses, email addresses, etc.) that are permitted to access a system. [34] |
Linux | 04 Jul 2020 - proposal
[35]
10 Jul 2020 - approval [36] [37] +Recommended replacements for 'blacklist/whitelist' are: + 'denylist / allowlist' + 'blocklist / passlist' |
Kaspersky | Allowlists and denylists -
[38]
Denylist (sometimes referred as blocklist, formerly known as blacklist) is a list of sites, programs, or other elements that are not allowed to be started or visited. (...) [39] - Since about Jan 2020 (comparing on web.archive) One method of filtering spam, an allowlist (formerly known as whitelist) provides a list of legitimate e-mail addresses or domain names: all messages from allowlisted addresses or domains are automatically passed on to the intended recipient. - [40] |
Cisco Talos | June 23, 2020 - While we acknowledge it is a small change, Cisco Talos is moving to replace our use of the terms "blacklist" and "whitelist" with "block list" and "allow list.” [41] |
Cisco | Safelist/Blocklist -
[42]
IP Allow/Block List - [43] |
SAP | Avoid "blacklist", as well as any compound words containing "black" that denote something bad or negative, such as black rating. Possible replacements: blocklist, exclude list, avoid list.
Examples of acceptable terms that include "black": blackout period, blackbox testing. Avoid "whitelist", as well as any compound words containing "white" that denote something good or positive, such as white rating. Possible replacements: allow list, include list, prefer list. Examples of acceptable terms that include "white": white paper, whitebox testing, whitespace. [44] |
Amazon / AWS ???
(Partially) |
Amazon engineers are collaborating on an internal Wiki page that shows how to replace unconsciously racist and gender-biased terms with more inclusive language.
Although it's not an official mandate by the leadership team, managers are encouraging employees to review the page, which is available companywide, according to people familiar with the effort. It also says "blacklist" has a racial stigma attached to it and should be replaced by "Blocklist" or "approved." [45] According to this page, their internal wiki is located at Alternative Phrasings to Unconscious Bias in Communication Wiki (Alexa Team). But searching their documentation, there are much mixed content: Blacklist - [46] Blocklist - CDK - Interface IFirewallDomainListProps |
Broadcom | Deny List / Allow List
[47]
Allowed list / Denied list [48] |
Whitelist -> Allowlist
Blacklist -> Denylist [49] | |
Meta | Block lists / Allow lists [50] |