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Is it necessary. Half this article is about racism to blacks. Black people weren't the only one to experience racism and their isn't a cultural image of asians or cultural image of white people section (s) etc. ect.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.182.221 ( talk) 00:41, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
These sections don't exist because nobody has felt the need to write them yet. If you feel it is important perhaps you can be the first to start them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.35.16.150 ( talk) 03:10, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
This is not going anywhere useful or constructive.
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I've tried to tidy this, however there are editors who believe that refering to black people as 'blacks' is acceptable. It's not, and hasn't been for some time. WP's Manual of Style at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=17072530#Identity specifically states "Avoid the use of certain adjectives as nouns to refer to groups of people within society: use black people rather than blacks" - one would hope that we would be able to manage this in the very article 'black people'?! Little grape ( talk) 00:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) I see you managed to find consensus for your edits, in a discussion in which no one really agrees with you. I reverted again, and I suggest you continue this discussion which appears to be still unresolved.-- Atlan ( talk) 13:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
The Manual of Style is unambiguous. Nobody has given a compelling reason why it should not be followed. However, since since I (and Grape) have already stated these things, I think edit warring perhaps cannot be avoided without taking this to a higher power. I'll do that tomorrow. My personal opinion? I think "black people" is a kinda strange article from the outset, fraught with difficulties and inevitably going to be a political minefield. However, I accept that it exists, so will work from there. -- bodnotbod ( talk) 05:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
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quoth Little grape ( talk · contribs), most of it reads like a school essay, while the rest has odd and/or esoteric info dropped in willy-nilly. The "blacks" red herring discussed above mostly just distracted from this. The article is in very poor shape. The huge section structured by country isn't helpful. I mean, what is the point of a huge content {{ duplication}} from country-specific articles like African American or Race in Brazil? If this article is to serve any use it needs to attempt a well-written synthesis of these topics. -- dab (𒁳) 09:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a request for comment on whether the article should use the term "blacks" to help the article read more fluently, or whether the term should be completely excised from the article. Two editors have expressed the view that this term is "offensive". Other editors do not find it offensive. Please acquaint yourself with the previous discussion here (click 'show') before posting, as there are important points to be taken into consideration. The RFC has been created to generate more input so that consensus may be reached. -- bodnotbod ( talk) 19:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
D'oh! Thuranx! You were a participant in the discussion earlier on. I didn't realise that. My aim here is to bring in new people and get a consensus that doesn't involve any of us. If you're willing I will delete mine and your discussion points that sit below the RFC banner. Seriously: although you may assume differently, I don't have a massive vested interest in the outcome of this argument. I'd actually be interested, in a stand-offish way to see how this pans out. But, that said... there's the god-damn manual of style! -- bodnotbod ( talk) 06:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
can we please use some common sense here? It is reasonable to use "black people" instead of "blacks" when the mention is in passing, in some unrelated article that doesn't dwell on details of racial concepts. But this is Wikipedia's article on black people. It is the article subject. The concept and its nuances are introduced and examined in detail, center stage. If the term "blacks" is "considered offensive" in some contexts, present references to the effect and introduce a paragraph on this point, but I cannot see how after careful introduction of the term, the article needs to awkwardly go on saying "black people this, black people that". Its a point of stylistics and readability. -- dab (𒁳) 09:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't buy the argument that referring to black people as "blacks" represents an improvement in style and readability. The historical baggage surrounding that particular usage in many areas of the world would be a detriment to readability, in my opinion. The phrase "black people" is not particularly awkward, and "readability" has a more complex meaning than "reducing the number of syllables." IceCreamEmpress ( talk) 16:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree with IceCreamEmpress , I cannot see what is wrong with 'black people' so why go against the MoS? 'Blacks' is sometimes used offensively and should only be used in direct quotes within this article. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 22:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Comment: If using the term "blacks" in the article offends a significant proportion of editors (even if it's not the majority) , when that is scaled up to all those who read the article we have quite a lot of slightly offended people. You guys are never ever going to agree on whether "blacks" is objectively offensive or objectively reasonable. Surely it's better to accept that it is offensive to some people (not all) and so use "black people", which means exactly the same thing but offends no-one. Charlie A. ( talk) 17:20, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Comment I am a neutral (as it were) reader and I came here from the RfC. I think it is a perilous path for we, as wikipedia editors, to say things like "so you agree that many people find this word offensive!" and so on. I could ask 10 black people today if they find the word "blacks" offensive and if all 10 of them say no, that doesn't diminish Little grape's opinion. Similarly, I could probably track down 10 gay people who hate the word "gay" but just deal with it anyway. Meanwhile, Jewish people often delightfully refer to themselves as "Jews" and have really embraced that term. And so on and so forth.
My naive suggestion would be that we assume good faith with words and not "reify" them into concrete things without reference to the intent behind them. In this case, "blacks" is used because, frankly, it still in very common parlance, and (no offense to Little grape and the other editors here) just because 3-4 people on wikipedia vociferously object, I really don't think we need to cater to them at the expense of a readable article. As was said already, "black people" is the very substance and topic of this article. Very few people will come here and say "gasp, what disrespect these writers have for black people by blatantly using this offensive term!" So, that's my opinion. Now: can't we, in our brilliance as English speakers, come up with any constructive solutions to avoid the term without repeating "black people" over and over? It may be time consuming but I'll bet it's possible. I know "African American" is too specific, but I constantly hear people refer, without giving it any actual thought, to a black Australian actor as "african american" because they are so internally discombobulated over the term "black." Some people would be shocked that we still use the term "black people" at all! Dmz5 *Edits* *Talk* 00:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Suggestion on a way forwards It is accepted that the term 'blacks' is not necessarily offensive when used appropriately, however it is accepted that it must be used with caution. Although the term will not be banned on this page, editors should feel free to change the wording of sections where the term is used inappropriately. To quote from what I have said above 'Black people have darker skins than white people and blacks usually have darker hair than whites', is OK but, 'Blacks first came to Europe in ...', especially at the start of a paragraph, is not. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 12:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Somebody, please, grow up, and stick to being a professional which includes not involving your personal views and opinions about political beliefs. If I was a racist, then I still wouldn't be right for involving my beliefs in how a business or what a business should call or label individuals of certain features, skin colors, or origins. The use of the term "blacks" is offensive in this modern 21st century era and the only reason that this word isn't offensive to some is that they continue to use the same terminology that they have been using without updating their usage of phrases and words. The world is constantly changing and so are how people are termed, so as far as any professionals, in any business,are concerned, we all need to learn new ways of communicating for the better of our world around us. I agree, as a writer, that you don't have to keep using the same word or phrase several times with good rules of grammar, word usage, and editing. Trust me! I write a lot and have the same problem, and many other writers do, too. Don't use this as an excuse to support poor and incorrect use of terms. Just1one ( talk) 21:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC) Just1one ( talk) 21:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The term black people usually refers to a racial group of humans with a light brown to a black skin color and born with Afro textured hair, Blacks are not light brown.the light brown skin color is from race mixing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.176.127.74 ( talk) 19:22, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Black africans aren`t the only ones with black skin color
White people are actually pink - but you don't see that being raise as an issue
-Truthseeker —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
74.216.13.35 (
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01:36, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Scott. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.85.74.148 ( talk) 03:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
As discussed above, I started looking that the usages of 'blacks' and changing those that I considered inappropriate to 'black people'. I stopped because it started to look as if it was going to be nearly all of them, and as a new editor here I did not want to appear to be imposing my own views on the page whilst there was an RfC in progress.
I do still think, however, that many of the occurrences of 'blacks' in this article are potentially offensive and not required to write in good English and should be therefore changed to 'black people'. This is not the same as banning the term completely but it is in accordance with the MoS and other guides. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
As no one has commented I have completed changing 'blacks' to 'black people' as discussed. There are still uses of 'blacks' which, in my opinion are OK. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm partially reverting the lede because User:AnwarSadatFan's version was repetitive, and it was wrong insofar as afro hair is not a defining characteristic of "black"-ness. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 23:58, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The image of the Pacific Islander boy has been there since June 22 2007; almost 2 years without any problems from anyone, until June 2 2009 when User:AnwarSadatFan removed it, and for no given reason at that. There is no problem with the image being in the article. There was no reason that it should be removed. The rarity of blonde blacks is more reason to show it, not to try to hide it as if it doesn't exist. Tailan All ( talk) 15:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Some of the statements in the section "Sub-Saharan Africa" appear to be poorly thought out and gratuitous. The first statement, "Sub-Saharan Africa is a common if imprecise term that encompasses African countries located south of the Saharan Desert" is inaccurate. The term Sub-Saharan Africa refers to a geographical region - that part of the continent that is south of the Sahara - not to a group of countries. Compare with "Pacific Rim" or "Western Europe" or "Antipodes".
The final sentence in the first paragraph, "Furthermore, the Sahara cuts across countries such as Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Chad, and Sudan, leaving some parts of them in North Africa and some in sub-Saharan Africa", is also incongruent. The Rocky Mountains cut across many states in America, and the Great Steppe cuts across many countries in Europe and Asia, but neither of these geographic features are considered problematic or questionable in the same manner as the previously cited sentence suggests.
I don't know how to go about fixing this, but I would be grateful if some scholar out there could have a look at it and perhaps clean it up. PanEuropean ( talk) 09:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
In your definition of "Black" people, you defined them as ranging in color from light brown to varying degrees of dark skin. You need to refine your or someone's error or ignorant definition of "Black" people as their colors range from so-called "white" complexions to varying degrees of dark skin. You, or to whomever wrote this definition on "Black" people need to understand that the term "Black" came from a racist era and one in which the term "Black" people was a stereotype and limited one which only supported data that supported stereotypes of "Black" people. The history of "Black" people could be a more diverse history with "Black" people deriving from not only dark pigmentation and curly hair, but, also, deriving from light pigmentations, light eye colors, light hair colors, and varying hair lengths and textures. You should know that it is a well-known fact that dark-skin parents can father a child that is born with lighter skin, and, therefore, you should know that, scientifically, light-skin parents can father a child that is born with dark skin. So the characterizations of so-called "Black" people is solely a racist term which aims to define, divide, and categorize people according to skin color or pigmentation and not by nationality and origin. Please add this fact to your definition: "Black" people are not a race of people, rather,the term "Black" people came out of a way to give a positive face or identity of individuals called and named racist and derogatory labels; yet, "Black" people is still derogatory in that the term is used to divide a group of people within their nation from other groups of people based solely on colors and certain features. Just1one ( talk) 20:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC) I, also, want to further add and correct whoever stated that light skin comes from racial mixing. You need to study and learn your facts about skin pigmentation, especially, from someone, (i.e., me), that has studied, plus, researched genetics, and DNA. I am passing this fact on to you that color of skin does not only derive from racial mixing, but, also, can come about through the combination of certain cells. This is a well-known scientific and proven fact, so, Africans or "Black" people with light skin does not only derive from racial mixing. In fact, that error only comes out of stereotyping, and racist profiling. Changes in pigmentation and color can happen for many diverse reasons beside albinism, and racial mixing. Again, the term "Black" people comes from a racial terminology that solely limits and groups certain individuals by color of skin or pigmentation - not factual or actual data. Just1one ( talk) 21:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I looked up this article, because I wanted to find out what percentage of the world population is classified as black people? It seems a relevant piece of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.145.79.116 ( talk) 10:46, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Without writing a long explanation of why the section was flawed I'll just cite the most thorough and credible Y-DNA study of Cypriots, Capelli et al 2005, that indicates Haplogroup A appeared at a 3.1% frequency in the Cypriot sample. Haplogroup A is associated with sub-saharan African ancestry and likely arrived in Cyprus through the servants of rulers (Ptolomaic, Venetian, other) or through the Ottoman slave trade. To define a people as part 'black people' due to a 3.1% occurance of a Y-DNA haplogroup just doesn't make sense. The other Cypriot haplogroups trace to the Mediterranean/North Africa/Middle East and Western Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coasterby ( talk • contribs) 02:23, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I wanted to thank some of the contributors here for their work in the page over the past 2 to 3 years. Since the craziness of accusing everyone of being a sockpuppet everytime we held our own against biased attacks which seek to do nothing but to maintain a prejudiced view and silence credible and verifiable opposition. A few of us found those e-saults to be frustrating and we had to develop methods that get around sockpuppet and bans. That being the case, how we contribute, by sending our data to a wide variety of others who look it over and contribute. Since then the spread of information to new users all over has made it possible to have articles relating to black people to be well devleoped BY black people. Before that, it seemed that non-blacks had a controlling impact on this article and others. Now it's more developed more fair. Great job and keep up the good work. -- 68.41.101.63 ( talk) 19:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
More work should be done to clarify black (race), black (ethnicity), black (social group), black (skin color). I notice how points are made that confuse black skin color with the black racial group and that with black ethnicity. It will help to clarify that. Black people as an Ethnic group probably have the largest numbers, followed by black "race". -- 68.41.101.63 ( talk) 19:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Mixing Veddas and Melanesyans with black Africans is ridiculous. In fact, a great part of black people in India is Caucasian: yes, black but caucasian.-- 88.18.148.166 ( talk) 03:01, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
"Black caucasians?" Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlecTrevelyan402 ( talk • contribs) 14:22, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
The claim "the loss of melanin in white people is now thought to have been caused by a mutation in just one letter out of 3.1 billion letters of DNA" is not supported by the reference. The referenced newspaper article reports the discovery of a one letter change in DNA that is responsible for a loss of melanin in white people. This cannot be the only genetic change responsible for the difference in skin pigmentation between white and black people because black-white hybrids show a fine gradation in skin tones. Indeed, the article also states "...the gene, known as slc24a5, is responsible for about one-third of the pigment loss that made black skin white. A few other as-yet-unidentified mutated genes apparently account for the rest". I'm somewhat troubled by the focus on what distinguishes whites, when the wikipedia page is about black people. The portion of the newspaper article that discussed the genetic differences that account for the difference in skin color between black Africans and (east) Asians was ignored. Qemist ( talk) 07:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Change "By that time, the majority of black people people were U.S.-born" to "By that time, the majority of black people were U.S.-born" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael.airola ( talk • contribs) 06:13, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Done —
C.Fred (
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06:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding the line, "Approximately 12 million Africans were shipped to the Americas during the Atlantic slave trade from 1492 to 1888."
Africans were not shipped to the Americas in 1492. The first African slaves were shipped to Spanish Florida in 1560's. (Source: David Brion Davis, Inhuman Bondage: The Rise and Fall of Slavery in the New World. Oxford University Press. 2006. p. 124.)
The last recorded slave ship to land on American soil was the Clotilde, which in 1859 illegally smuggled a number of Africans into the town of Mobile, Alabama. ( http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/question/july05/)
I am wondering if it is more correct to say: "Approximately 12 million Africans were shipped to the Americas during the Atlantic slave trade from the 1560's to 1859."
Also, I believe 12 million refers to the number of people who were held in slavery in the United States, not the number of Africans shipped to the Americas. Africans in slavery had families and children, and as such, the number of Africans who were transported was lower. I cannot find numbers on this point however.
66.49.248.98 ( talk) 00:08, 1 March 2010 (UTC)zackbear26@yahoo.com
I would like to request that the sentence (quote)"In general, Arabs had a more positive view of black women than black men, even if the women were of slave origin." in the Arab world part of this article to be changed or deleted as it can be read to say that Arabs view (African) black women more positively then how (African) black men view there own women which would be untrue, subjective and offensive to the intelligence and love (African)black men have for their women. I am not saying the person who wrote this was putting this forward but the way it was written implies this. No race views the race of a female people group more positively then their own men since they are there mothers, sisters, partners and wives. This obviously goes for any people group (or race) not just African black people. I would also like to request the word African to be added before every “black” in the same article (African is added before black in some parts but not others) since it was specifically black Africans that were taken into slavery in the Arab slave trade. Not every people group (or race) referred to as black around the world comes from Africa which is what people often forget. A more clear and better statement would be “In general, Arabs had a more positive view of African black women compared to how they viewed and treated African black men, even if the women were of slave origin” This or a similar edit would help avoid confusion and/or any offence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.106.200 ( talk) 13:43, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I see this article apparently is not about Blacks of Sub-Saharan Africa. Can someone point to the article here on Wikipedia that is exclusively about the Blacks of Sub-Saharan Africa? If there isn't one, then there really should be. AnwarSadatFan ( talk) 02:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}}
The explanation for Toni Morrison's comment that Bill Clinton was the first black president is not entirely correct. She said that "People misunderstood that phrase. I was deploring the way in which President Clinton was being treated, vis-à-vis the sex scandal that was surrounding him. I said he was being treated like a black on the street, already guilty, already a perp. I have no idea what his real instincts are, in terms of race." So, he was not black because of his warm relationship with black people. He was black because people treated him as guilty without a fair chance.
Stas89 ( talk) 00:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Why are the pages "Nigger" and "Nigga" not linked to this article? Everything else with a smidgen of relevance is, so I feel that the pages "Nigger" and "Nigga" should definitely be linked in the article's conclusion. 72.223.82.21 ( talk) 08:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
And what reason is that? Perhaps those should be linked to White People as well. I didn't go straight to the white people talk page and bring it up because I'm not studying the etymology of "honky" or "cracker," and I didn't want to be immediately labeled a troll. I feel that the entries "Nigger" and "Nigga" as well as their alleged differences are a pretty relevant point to this page. 72.223.82.21 ( talk) 09:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I never suggested a stand alone section on the words. I suggested linking to the pages at the end of the article in the "see also" section which includes the following:
* African-American * African diaspora * Africans * Afro-Asian * Afro-Latino * Black British * Black Canadians * Black Hispanic and Latino Americans * Black Indians * Black pride, Black Power, Black nationalism, Black separatism, Black supremacy * List of topics related to Black and African people * Negritos * Stereotypes of black people * Sub-Saharan Africa * The Minds of Marginalized Black Men (book)
So why would it NOT include links to those pages?
Also, I find it offensive that it's implied that the word could only relate to, or affect african-americans. The word is universal to people of color (not just "black" color), but from the origins and evolution of the word it would make it extremely relevant to black people. It's almost like the people posting on this topic didn't read the Nigger or Nigga pages before trying to throw a racism flag and say linking them is irrelevant. 72.223.82.21 ( talk) 23:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I notice this talk page is flagged with {{ Calm talk}}, {{ censor}} and {{ Controversial3}}. Aren't the "issues" these tags are meant for, just vandalism that should be cleared up in the normal editing process? I certainly don't see anything that some people might consider offensive or controversial, and I would hope that any racist ranting would be quickly be removed as disruptive. Astronaut ( talk) 14:27, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Why isn't there anything in there about how they now have an advantage upon birth because of all the reverse racism (affirmative action) in America? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.17.231.118 ( talk) 21:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
The polls you use to illustrate whether Obama is considered black were done by a subset of Zogby International known as Zogby Interactive. Zogby Interactive is a non-scientific poll that only questions members of its own community(completely destroying the foundation of scientific polling which insists you use randomly selected groups), and as such I don't think it should be included in Wikipedia. See the discussion here. Wikiposter0123 ( talk) 19:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
The map is portraying the wrong shade of green. Should be something closer to (RGB) #339900 instead. -- 66.66.187.132 ( talk) 01:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
"The term "African American" is preferred for public and formal use." This is false at worst, non-NPOV at best. See http://www.gallup.com/poll/28816/black-african-american.aspx Most American Blacks do prefer to be called Black. I hate creating new usernames, so I don't have a wikipedia account. I am posting this here because this is the only way I can edit the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.59.167.142 ( talk) 15:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
I remember there being one, and it had some good links in it. BrainyBabe ( talk) 13:14, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
The author of this article seems to suggest sub conciously that the people of dark skin are slaves.Judging by recent European Composition of African History,this seems so,however I would like to ask the authour to grant maximum respect to the people who founded humans and the art of being human in every sense of the word. Always remember that civilizations rise and crumble and our modern civilizations will one day crumble and become ancient and antiquite.It will at that time be injustice to presume and try to perpetuate the notion that a peoples civilization is not their civilization.This idea was started by Early Greek visitors to ancient African Kingdoms(After copying almost everything they knew then from Africans and craving for false originality of the what they copied from Africa to their Greek homeland),advanced by later Conquerers like Romans and inherited as wisdom by current generations of Europe and Northern America. Being black is very normal,just like being pinkish("white") and it is an adaption of the environment. Slavery was an act of cruel domination of some Africans by some other powerful humankind.Slavery has consistently repeated itself in History,with the temporarily weaker race at any given time being subdued.In Ancient Times,Africans were powerful and they subdued other races.Yesterday other races became powerful and really subdued the African.Who knows what happens tomorrow when some other race or may be the African Arises?When writing a sensitive article such as this,try to uplift the humanity of the humans you are describing rest the same fate of manufactured racial wretchedness befalls your later generations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwenemucii ( talk • contribs) 22:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
If there are physical differences, there are also must be psychological differences between, say, blacks and asians, blacks and whites, asians and whites etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.50.50 ( talk) 05:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I have altered the intro to read thus: Although the classification is primarily associated with the very dark skin colors of some people who are classified as 'black', the classification itself, particularly in the United States, also refers to people with all possible kinds of skin pigmentation from the darkest through to the very lightest skin colors, including albinos. Therefore, the term 'black people' is not an indicator of skin color but of racial classification.'
I should add that, of course, this helps to clarify the fact that 'race' is not a biological category, but a form of social or political classification.
I object most strongly to the previous post which suggested that 'black people' referred simply or even primarily to 'dark' or 'nearly black' skin colour. This is particularly true in the US, where the term has most relevance (being the largest population of English-as-a-first-language speaking 'black people'), and where historically, 'blackness' is not associated with the individual in question having 'dark' or 'black' skin, but with them having ancestors who were deported from Africa into slavery. -- Ackees ( talk) 19:04, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
The caption for the picture of Ivan Gannibal says he was the grandfather of Alexander Pushkin. He was the great-uncle, as his own Wikipedia entry confirms, and not the grandfather. 87.231.185.157 ( talk) 11:52, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | → | Archive 24 |
Is it necessary. Half this article is about racism to blacks. Black people weren't the only one to experience racism and their isn't a cultural image of asians or cultural image of white people section (s) etc. ect.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.182.221 ( talk) 00:41, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
These sections don't exist because nobody has felt the need to write them yet. If you feel it is important perhaps you can be the first to start them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.35.16.150 ( talk) 03:10, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
This is not going anywhere useful or constructive.
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I've tried to tidy this, however there are editors who believe that refering to black people as 'blacks' is acceptable. It's not, and hasn't been for some time. WP's Manual of Style at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=17072530#Identity specifically states "Avoid the use of certain adjectives as nouns to refer to groups of people within society: use black people rather than blacks" - one would hope that we would be able to manage this in the very article 'black people'?! Little grape ( talk) 00:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) I see you managed to find consensus for your edits, in a discussion in which no one really agrees with you. I reverted again, and I suggest you continue this discussion which appears to be still unresolved.-- Atlan ( talk) 13:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
The Manual of Style is unambiguous. Nobody has given a compelling reason why it should not be followed. However, since since I (and Grape) have already stated these things, I think edit warring perhaps cannot be avoided without taking this to a higher power. I'll do that tomorrow. My personal opinion? I think "black people" is a kinda strange article from the outset, fraught with difficulties and inevitably going to be a political minefield. However, I accept that it exists, so will work from there. -- bodnotbod ( talk) 05:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
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quoth Little grape ( talk · contribs), most of it reads like a school essay, while the rest has odd and/or esoteric info dropped in willy-nilly. The "blacks" red herring discussed above mostly just distracted from this. The article is in very poor shape. The huge section structured by country isn't helpful. I mean, what is the point of a huge content {{ duplication}} from country-specific articles like African American or Race in Brazil? If this article is to serve any use it needs to attempt a well-written synthesis of these topics. -- dab (𒁳) 09:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a request for comment on whether the article should use the term "blacks" to help the article read more fluently, or whether the term should be completely excised from the article. Two editors have expressed the view that this term is "offensive". Other editors do not find it offensive. Please acquaint yourself with the previous discussion here (click 'show') before posting, as there are important points to be taken into consideration. The RFC has been created to generate more input so that consensus may be reached. -- bodnotbod ( talk) 19:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
D'oh! Thuranx! You were a participant in the discussion earlier on. I didn't realise that. My aim here is to bring in new people and get a consensus that doesn't involve any of us. If you're willing I will delete mine and your discussion points that sit below the RFC banner. Seriously: although you may assume differently, I don't have a massive vested interest in the outcome of this argument. I'd actually be interested, in a stand-offish way to see how this pans out. But, that said... there's the god-damn manual of style! -- bodnotbod ( talk) 06:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
can we please use some common sense here? It is reasonable to use "black people" instead of "blacks" when the mention is in passing, in some unrelated article that doesn't dwell on details of racial concepts. But this is Wikipedia's article on black people. It is the article subject. The concept and its nuances are introduced and examined in detail, center stage. If the term "blacks" is "considered offensive" in some contexts, present references to the effect and introduce a paragraph on this point, but I cannot see how after careful introduction of the term, the article needs to awkwardly go on saying "black people this, black people that". Its a point of stylistics and readability. -- dab (𒁳) 09:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't buy the argument that referring to black people as "blacks" represents an improvement in style and readability. The historical baggage surrounding that particular usage in many areas of the world would be a detriment to readability, in my opinion. The phrase "black people" is not particularly awkward, and "readability" has a more complex meaning than "reducing the number of syllables." IceCreamEmpress ( talk) 16:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree with IceCreamEmpress , I cannot see what is wrong with 'black people' so why go against the MoS? 'Blacks' is sometimes used offensively and should only be used in direct quotes within this article. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 22:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Comment: If using the term "blacks" in the article offends a significant proportion of editors (even if it's not the majority) , when that is scaled up to all those who read the article we have quite a lot of slightly offended people. You guys are never ever going to agree on whether "blacks" is objectively offensive or objectively reasonable. Surely it's better to accept that it is offensive to some people (not all) and so use "black people", which means exactly the same thing but offends no-one. Charlie A. ( talk) 17:20, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Comment I am a neutral (as it were) reader and I came here from the RfC. I think it is a perilous path for we, as wikipedia editors, to say things like "so you agree that many people find this word offensive!" and so on. I could ask 10 black people today if they find the word "blacks" offensive and if all 10 of them say no, that doesn't diminish Little grape's opinion. Similarly, I could probably track down 10 gay people who hate the word "gay" but just deal with it anyway. Meanwhile, Jewish people often delightfully refer to themselves as "Jews" and have really embraced that term. And so on and so forth.
My naive suggestion would be that we assume good faith with words and not "reify" them into concrete things without reference to the intent behind them. In this case, "blacks" is used because, frankly, it still in very common parlance, and (no offense to Little grape and the other editors here) just because 3-4 people on wikipedia vociferously object, I really don't think we need to cater to them at the expense of a readable article. As was said already, "black people" is the very substance and topic of this article. Very few people will come here and say "gasp, what disrespect these writers have for black people by blatantly using this offensive term!" So, that's my opinion. Now: can't we, in our brilliance as English speakers, come up with any constructive solutions to avoid the term without repeating "black people" over and over? It may be time consuming but I'll bet it's possible. I know "African American" is too specific, but I constantly hear people refer, without giving it any actual thought, to a black Australian actor as "african american" because they are so internally discombobulated over the term "black." Some people would be shocked that we still use the term "black people" at all! Dmz5 *Edits* *Talk* 00:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Suggestion on a way forwards It is accepted that the term 'blacks' is not necessarily offensive when used appropriately, however it is accepted that it must be used with caution. Although the term will not be banned on this page, editors should feel free to change the wording of sections where the term is used inappropriately. To quote from what I have said above 'Black people have darker skins than white people and blacks usually have darker hair than whites', is OK but, 'Blacks first came to Europe in ...', especially at the start of a paragraph, is not. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 12:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Somebody, please, grow up, and stick to being a professional which includes not involving your personal views and opinions about political beliefs. If I was a racist, then I still wouldn't be right for involving my beliefs in how a business or what a business should call or label individuals of certain features, skin colors, or origins. The use of the term "blacks" is offensive in this modern 21st century era and the only reason that this word isn't offensive to some is that they continue to use the same terminology that they have been using without updating their usage of phrases and words. The world is constantly changing and so are how people are termed, so as far as any professionals, in any business,are concerned, we all need to learn new ways of communicating for the better of our world around us. I agree, as a writer, that you don't have to keep using the same word or phrase several times with good rules of grammar, word usage, and editing. Trust me! I write a lot and have the same problem, and many other writers do, too. Don't use this as an excuse to support poor and incorrect use of terms. Just1one ( talk) 21:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC) Just1one ( talk) 21:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The term black people usually refers to a racial group of humans with a light brown to a black skin color and born with Afro textured hair, Blacks are not light brown.the light brown skin color is from race mixing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.176.127.74 ( talk) 19:22, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Black africans aren`t the only ones with black skin color
White people are actually pink - but you don't see that being raise as an issue
-Truthseeker —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
74.216.13.35 (
talk)
01:36, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Scott. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.85.74.148 ( talk) 03:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
As discussed above, I started looking that the usages of 'blacks' and changing those that I considered inappropriate to 'black people'. I stopped because it started to look as if it was going to be nearly all of them, and as a new editor here I did not want to appear to be imposing my own views on the page whilst there was an RfC in progress.
I do still think, however, that many of the occurrences of 'blacks' in this article are potentially offensive and not required to write in good English and should be therefore changed to 'black people'. This is not the same as banning the term completely but it is in accordance with the MoS and other guides. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
As no one has commented I have completed changing 'blacks' to 'black people' as discussed. There are still uses of 'blacks' which, in my opinion are OK. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm partially reverting the lede because User:AnwarSadatFan's version was repetitive, and it was wrong insofar as afro hair is not a defining characteristic of "black"-ness. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 23:58, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The image of the Pacific Islander boy has been there since June 22 2007; almost 2 years without any problems from anyone, until June 2 2009 when User:AnwarSadatFan removed it, and for no given reason at that. There is no problem with the image being in the article. There was no reason that it should be removed. The rarity of blonde blacks is more reason to show it, not to try to hide it as if it doesn't exist. Tailan All ( talk) 15:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Some of the statements in the section "Sub-Saharan Africa" appear to be poorly thought out and gratuitous. The first statement, "Sub-Saharan Africa is a common if imprecise term that encompasses African countries located south of the Saharan Desert" is inaccurate. The term Sub-Saharan Africa refers to a geographical region - that part of the continent that is south of the Sahara - not to a group of countries. Compare with "Pacific Rim" or "Western Europe" or "Antipodes".
The final sentence in the first paragraph, "Furthermore, the Sahara cuts across countries such as Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Chad, and Sudan, leaving some parts of them in North Africa and some in sub-Saharan Africa", is also incongruent. The Rocky Mountains cut across many states in America, and the Great Steppe cuts across many countries in Europe and Asia, but neither of these geographic features are considered problematic or questionable in the same manner as the previously cited sentence suggests.
I don't know how to go about fixing this, but I would be grateful if some scholar out there could have a look at it and perhaps clean it up. PanEuropean ( talk) 09:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
In your definition of "Black" people, you defined them as ranging in color from light brown to varying degrees of dark skin. You need to refine your or someone's error or ignorant definition of "Black" people as their colors range from so-called "white" complexions to varying degrees of dark skin. You, or to whomever wrote this definition on "Black" people need to understand that the term "Black" came from a racist era and one in which the term "Black" people was a stereotype and limited one which only supported data that supported stereotypes of "Black" people. The history of "Black" people could be a more diverse history with "Black" people deriving from not only dark pigmentation and curly hair, but, also, deriving from light pigmentations, light eye colors, light hair colors, and varying hair lengths and textures. You should know that it is a well-known fact that dark-skin parents can father a child that is born with lighter skin, and, therefore, you should know that, scientifically, light-skin parents can father a child that is born with dark skin. So the characterizations of so-called "Black" people is solely a racist term which aims to define, divide, and categorize people according to skin color or pigmentation and not by nationality and origin. Please add this fact to your definition: "Black" people are not a race of people, rather,the term "Black" people came out of a way to give a positive face or identity of individuals called and named racist and derogatory labels; yet, "Black" people is still derogatory in that the term is used to divide a group of people within their nation from other groups of people based solely on colors and certain features. Just1one ( talk) 20:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC) I, also, want to further add and correct whoever stated that light skin comes from racial mixing. You need to study and learn your facts about skin pigmentation, especially, from someone, (i.e., me), that has studied, plus, researched genetics, and DNA. I am passing this fact on to you that color of skin does not only derive from racial mixing, but, also, can come about through the combination of certain cells. This is a well-known scientific and proven fact, so, Africans or "Black" people with light skin does not only derive from racial mixing. In fact, that error only comes out of stereotyping, and racist profiling. Changes in pigmentation and color can happen for many diverse reasons beside albinism, and racial mixing. Again, the term "Black" people comes from a racial terminology that solely limits and groups certain individuals by color of skin or pigmentation - not factual or actual data. Just1one ( talk) 21:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I looked up this article, because I wanted to find out what percentage of the world population is classified as black people? It seems a relevant piece of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.145.79.116 ( talk) 10:46, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Without writing a long explanation of why the section was flawed I'll just cite the most thorough and credible Y-DNA study of Cypriots, Capelli et al 2005, that indicates Haplogroup A appeared at a 3.1% frequency in the Cypriot sample. Haplogroup A is associated with sub-saharan African ancestry and likely arrived in Cyprus through the servants of rulers (Ptolomaic, Venetian, other) or through the Ottoman slave trade. To define a people as part 'black people' due to a 3.1% occurance of a Y-DNA haplogroup just doesn't make sense. The other Cypriot haplogroups trace to the Mediterranean/North Africa/Middle East and Western Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coasterby ( talk • contribs) 02:23, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I wanted to thank some of the contributors here for their work in the page over the past 2 to 3 years. Since the craziness of accusing everyone of being a sockpuppet everytime we held our own against biased attacks which seek to do nothing but to maintain a prejudiced view and silence credible and verifiable opposition. A few of us found those e-saults to be frustrating and we had to develop methods that get around sockpuppet and bans. That being the case, how we contribute, by sending our data to a wide variety of others who look it over and contribute. Since then the spread of information to new users all over has made it possible to have articles relating to black people to be well devleoped BY black people. Before that, it seemed that non-blacks had a controlling impact on this article and others. Now it's more developed more fair. Great job and keep up the good work. -- 68.41.101.63 ( talk) 19:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
More work should be done to clarify black (race), black (ethnicity), black (social group), black (skin color). I notice how points are made that confuse black skin color with the black racial group and that with black ethnicity. It will help to clarify that. Black people as an Ethnic group probably have the largest numbers, followed by black "race". -- 68.41.101.63 ( talk) 19:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Mixing Veddas and Melanesyans with black Africans is ridiculous. In fact, a great part of black people in India is Caucasian: yes, black but caucasian.-- 88.18.148.166 ( talk) 03:01, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
"Black caucasians?" Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlecTrevelyan402 ( talk • contribs) 14:22, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
The claim "the loss of melanin in white people is now thought to have been caused by a mutation in just one letter out of 3.1 billion letters of DNA" is not supported by the reference. The referenced newspaper article reports the discovery of a one letter change in DNA that is responsible for a loss of melanin in white people. This cannot be the only genetic change responsible for the difference in skin pigmentation between white and black people because black-white hybrids show a fine gradation in skin tones. Indeed, the article also states "...the gene, known as slc24a5, is responsible for about one-third of the pigment loss that made black skin white. A few other as-yet-unidentified mutated genes apparently account for the rest". I'm somewhat troubled by the focus on what distinguishes whites, when the wikipedia page is about black people. The portion of the newspaper article that discussed the genetic differences that account for the difference in skin color between black Africans and (east) Asians was ignored. Qemist ( talk) 07:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Change "By that time, the majority of black people people were U.S.-born" to "By that time, the majority of black people were U.S.-born" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael.airola ( talk • contribs) 06:13, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Done —
C.Fred (
talk)
06:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding the line, "Approximately 12 million Africans were shipped to the Americas during the Atlantic slave trade from 1492 to 1888."
Africans were not shipped to the Americas in 1492. The first African slaves were shipped to Spanish Florida in 1560's. (Source: David Brion Davis, Inhuman Bondage: The Rise and Fall of Slavery in the New World. Oxford University Press. 2006. p. 124.)
The last recorded slave ship to land on American soil was the Clotilde, which in 1859 illegally smuggled a number of Africans into the town of Mobile, Alabama. ( http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/question/july05/)
I am wondering if it is more correct to say: "Approximately 12 million Africans were shipped to the Americas during the Atlantic slave trade from the 1560's to 1859."
Also, I believe 12 million refers to the number of people who were held in slavery in the United States, not the number of Africans shipped to the Americas. Africans in slavery had families and children, and as such, the number of Africans who were transported was lower. I cannot find numbers on this point however.
66.49.248.98 ( talk) 00:08, 1 March 2010 (UTC)zackbear26@yahoo.com
I would like to request that the sentence (quote)"In general, Arabs had a more positive view of black women than black men, even if the women were of slave origin." in the Arab world part of this article to be changed or deleted as it can be read to say that Arabs view (African) black women more positively then how (African) black men view there own women which would be untrue, subjective and offensive to the intelligence and love (African)black men have for their women. I am not saying the person who wrote this was putting this forward but the way it was written implies this. No race views the race of a female people group more positively then their own men since they are there mothers, sisters, partners and wives. This obviously goes for any people group (or race) not just African black people. I would also like to request the word African to be added before every “black” in the same article (African is added before black in some parts but not others) since it was specifically black Africans that were taken into slavery in the Arab slave trade. Not every people group (or race) referred to as black around the world comes from Africa which is what people often forget. A more clear and better statement would be “In general, Arabs had a more positive view of African black women compared to how they viewed and treated African black men, even if the women were of slave origin” This or a similar edit would help avoid confusion and/or any offence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.106.200 ( talk) 13:43, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I see this article apparently is not about Blacks of Sub-Saharan Africa. Can someone point to the article here on Wikipedia that is exclusively about the Blacks of Sub-Saharan Africa? If there isn't one, then there really should be. AnwarSadatFan ( talk) 02:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}}
The explanation for Toni Morrison's comment that Bill Clinton was the first black president is not entirely correct. She said that "People misunderstood that phrase. I was deploring the way in which President Clinton was being treated, vis-à-vis the sex scandal that was surrounding him. I said he was being treated like a black on the street, already guilty, already a perp. I have no idea what his real instincts are, in terms of race." So, he was not black because of his warm relationship with black people. He was black because people treated him as guilty without a fair chance.
Stas89 ( talk) 00:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Why are the pages "Nigger" and "Nigga" not linked to this article? Everything else with a smidgen of relevance is, so I feel that the pages "Nigger" and "Nigga" should definitely be linked in the article's conclusion. 72.223.82.21 ( talk) 08:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
And what reason is that? Perhaps those should be linked to White People as well. I didn't go straight to the white people talk page and bring it up because I'm not studying the etymology of "honky" or "cracker," and I didn't want to be immediately labeled a troll. I feel that the entries "Nigger" and "Nigga" as well as their alleged differences are a pretty relevant point to this page. 72.223.82.21 ( talk) 09:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I never suggested a stand alone section on the words. I suggested linking to the pages at the end of the article in the "see also" section which includes the following:
* African-American * African diaspora * Africans * Afro-Asian * Afro-Latino * Black British * Black Canadians * Black Hispanic and Latino Americans * Black Indians * Black pride, Black Power, Black nationalism, Black separatism, Black supremacy * List of topics related to Black and African people * Negritos * Stereotypes of black people * Sub-Saharan Africa * The Minds of Marginalized Black Men (book)
So why would it NOT include links to those pages?
Also, I find it offensive that it's implied that the word could only relate to, or affect african-americans. The word is universal to people of color (not just "black" color), but from the origins and evolution of the word it would make it extremely relevant to black people. It's almost like the people posting on this topic didn't read the Nigger or Nigga pages before trying to throw a racism flag and say linking them is irrelevant. 72.223.82.21 ( talk) 23:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I notice this talk page is flagged with {{ Calm talk}}, {{ censor}} and {{ Controversial3}}. Aren't the "issues" these tags are meant for, just vandalism that should be cleared up in the normal editing process? I certainly don't see anything that some people might consider offensive or controversial, and I would hope that any racist ranting would be quickly be removed as disruptive. Astronaut ( talk) 14:27, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Why isn't there anything in there about how they now have an advantage upon birth because of all the reverse racism (affirmative action) in America? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.17.231.118 ( talk) 21:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
The polls you use to illustrate whether Obama is considered black were done by a subset of Zogby International known as Zogby Interactive. Zogby Interactive is a non-scientific poll that only questions members of its own community(completely destroying the foundation of scientific polling which insists you use randomly selected groups), and as such I don't think it should be included in Wikipedia. See the discussion here. Wikiposter0123 ( talk) 19:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
The map is portraying the wrong shade of green. Should be something closer to (RGB) #339900 instead. -- 66.66.187.132 ( talk) 01:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
"The term "African American" is preferred for public and formal use." This is false at worst, non-NPOV at best. See http://www.gallup.com/poll/28816/black-african-american.aspx Most American Blacks do prefer to be called Black. I hate creating new usernames, so I don't have a wikipedia account. I am posting this here because this is the only way I can edit the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.59.167.142 ( talk) 15:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
I remember there being one, and it had some good links in it. BrainyBabe ( talk) 13:14, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
The author of this article seems to suggest sub conciously that the people of dark skin are slaves.Judging by recent European Composition of African History,this seems so,however I would like to ask the authour to grant maximum respect to the people who founded humans and the art of being human in every sense of the word. Always remember that civilizations rise and crumble and our modern civilizations will one day crumble and become ancient and antiquite.It will at that time be injustice to presume and try to perpetuate the notion that a peoples civilization is not their civilization.This idea was started by Early Greek visitors to ancient African Kingdoms(After copying almost everything they knew then from Africans and craving for false originality of the what they copied from Africa to their Greek homeland),advanced by later Conquerers like Romans and inherited as wisdom by current generations of Europe and Northern America. Being black is very normal,just like being pinkish("white") and it is an adaption of the environment. Slavery was an act of cruel domination of some Africans by some other powerful humankind.Slavery has consistently repeated itself in History,with the temporarily weaker race at any given time being subdued.In Ancient Times,Africans were powerful and they subdued other races.Yesterday other races became powerful and really subdued the African.Who knows what happens tomorrow when some other race or may be the African Arises?When writing a sensitive article such as this,try to uplift the humanity of the humans you are describing rest the same fate of manufactured racial wretchedness befalls your later generations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwenemucii ( talk • contribs) 22:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
If there are physical differences, there are also must be psychological differences between, say, blacks and asians, blacks and whites, asians and whites etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.50.50 ( talk) 05:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I have altered the intro to read thus: Although the classification is primarily associated with the very dark skin colors of some people who are classified as 'black', the classification itself, particularly in the United States, also refers to people with all possible kinds of skin pigmentation from the darkest through to the very lightest skin colors, including albinos. Therefore, the term 'black people' is not an indicator of skin color but of racial classification.'
I should add that, of course, this helps to clarify the fact that 'race' is not a biological category, but a form of social or political classification.
I object most strongly to the previous post which suggested that 'black people' referred simply or even primarily to 'dark' or 'nearly black' skin colour. This is particularly true in the US, where the term has most relevance (being the largest population of English-as-a-first-language speaking 'black people'), and where historically, 'blackness' is not associated with the individual in question having 'dark' or 'black' skin, but with them having ancestors who were deported from Africa into slavery. -- Ackees ( talk) 19:04, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
The caption for the picture of Ivan Gannibal says he was the grandfather of Alexander Pushkin. He was the great-uncle, as his own Wikipedia entry confirms, and not the grandfather. 87.231.185.157 ( talk) 11:52, 26 December 2010 (UTC)