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The term "blacks" has often been applied to indigenous Australians. This owes rather more to racial stereotyping than ethnology, as it categorises indigenous Australians with the other black peoples of Asia and Africa, despite the relationships only being ones of very distant shared ancestry. In the 1970s, many Aboriginal activists, such as Gary Foley proudly embraced the term "black", and writer Kevin Gilbert's groundbreaking book from the time was entitled Living Black. In recent years young indigenous Australians have increasingly adopted aspects of black American and Afro-Caribbean culture, creating what has been described as a form of "black transnationalism."[2] (i dont know if this is in the article but it should be)-- HalaTruth(????) 11:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
This article clearly asserts that there is no agreed upon notion of who is Black and who is not. In that context, a population estimate table does not make sense. Perhaps the numbers for individual, identifiable groups would be ok. Just perhaps. Jd2718 03:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Some numbers are necessary to add meaning and context to the article. Without them we could be talking about 2 people or 6 billion people. Being "black" is subjective and there is no agreed upon definition, but that should not stop us from making estimates. The US government takes statistics on black people so it is not an impossible task [1]. Basically by breaking down the table further it is possible to arrive at different numbers depending on one'e desired interpretation. User:Muntuwandi 20:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
The article asserts that the population of black people is half a billion. This is not possible as the the population of sub-saharan africa is $767 million. Though ethnically heterogenous is almost entirely black. The exceptions include about 4 million whites in south africa and about 1.5 million peoples of Indian descent. Sub-saharan africa should be the least controversial when it comes to defining who is black. There will definitely be some controversy in the americas as not everyone of african descent there will define themselves as primarily black. The information in the new chart does not include the distribution ie where black people are to be found. Without it we could assume that there are a half billion black people living in russia or japan. As mentioned earlier a table is useful because if a reader decides that he or she has a different interpretation of what black is then they can simply remove or add a row from the table. For example there are about $80 million people of african descent in brazil. Of that about 11 million define themselves as primarily black. One can decide for themselves how to interpret this information but is useful and relevant if displayed. User:Muntuwandi 15:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not have a problem with modifying the content. But including certain information in a visually friendly manner is important.Distribution is necessary because it provides information on where most likely you will find black people. If i am walking down a street in siberia will I meet a black person?. The whole issue of racism is very much linked to numbers- minority User:Muntuwandi 15:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I think one chart is enough. some issues
I have again and again said that i wish that this page would not be used by these people who want to push this nonsense into our communities. I am Ethiopian. And it is sickening of seeing peole talking nonsense. Chances are they are white people who realize Ethiopian was the 1st christian state, the empire that conquered Arabia, the Last and longest continuous civilization, the country that saved Islam, the country that the original Jews come from. The country with an ancient Script Ge'ez and they want to find a way, Just like Kemet, take it away from Black people. Again and again we see this. And if anywhere in this article this bunch of eurcentric lies is placed i will have to go down taking it out!!!!!!!!! p.s. Most Ethiopians are darker than Most African South Africans, Xhosa and Zulu poeple. And African hair comes in many different textures. If you live as high as we do your hair will be curly. in addition Ethiopia is a diverse group of people who dont all look the same, Do knowledge and speaking from pure lies. The Masai have the same features, The Kanuri, the Wodabee, the Somali, the Fulani the Tutsi, all have these features, so why would thick lips be more Negroid? It is just the white mans take on what a "real" African is..-- HalaTruth(????) 16:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
please do not add any multiracial madness to habasha people, this has been an ongoing war on this page, dont start it again. see the previous talk comments. How Selassie say that and still be the king of Rasta people, does it make sense. Selassie was one of the key Pan-Africanist who said Africa unite because we are teh same people... come on?-- HalaTruth(????) 22:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes the reference to the Habesha is POV and should not be included in the article. User:Muntuwandi 23:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
After a lengthy analysis and public comment period, the Federal Office of Management and Budget (OMB) revised the standards for how the Federal government would collect and present data on race and ethnicity. The new guidelines reflect "the increasing diversity of our Nation's population, stemming from growth in interracial marriages and immigration." [2]" Is that wrong? Thank you. Jeeny 03:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
due to significant mixing the americas have the most controversial and flexible definitions for blackness. However we can start with the figures for the African diaspora which are far less controversial.
This is approximately 150 million. Not everyone in the african diaspora identifies themselves as primarily black. In the US the one drop rule meaning one is black if they have one drop of african blood. However the reverse is true in much of latin america where one drop of white blood could make you white.
This includes the populations of Papua New Guinea New Caledonia and other surrounding islands. Approx 6 million.
the institute of health has the indigenous population of Australians as 500, 000.
Afro-European England - 1 million split evenly between afro-caribbeans and africans France - 2 million of sub-saharan african descent Netherlands- 300, 000 of surinamese descent.
To reduce controversy on defining who is black I have added figures on the African diaspora that are less controversial. This can serve as the upper limit of who is "black". For example if there are 40 million people of african descent in the US, then there can be no more than 40 million Black people of African descent in the US User:Muntuwandi 20:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
total figure extends above 900 million. This however has not included black populations in North africa the middle east and South India so the figure could be higher. ( eg Egypt and Saudi Arabia) User:Muntuwandi 04:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
"The above chart is an unpublished synthesis of published sources, and is inconsistent with published estimates. For example it asserts that indigenous sub-Saharan Africans and their Diasporas descendents around the globe number 917 million or roughly 14% of the now 6.555 billion people on Earth. This figure is inconsistent with journalist Jon Entine’s, claim that persons of sub-Saharan African ancestry comprise 12 percent of humanity [3](roughly 787 million people). The total black population of 923 million is especially inconsistent with reports that the people of Nigeria are one fifth of the global black population [4]. Nigeria currently has 140 million people implying the global black population should be only 700 million (a discrepancy of 233 million people). The Nigeria-based estimate may be lower because it only counts peoples of sub-Saharan descent as black (excluding the 6.5 million Melanesians and Australian aboriginals) and also because its excludes populations sometimes viewed as multiracial such as Ethiopians [5] and many Afro-Latinos. "
Dear Iseebias,
I think it is a little odd to make criticisms right in the article. It shows conflict and disagreement. If one disagrees, which is expected,then it is more appropriate to provide alternative or better sources.
My motives are really simple- to indicate:
This is useful information and tells us alot about world history and current events.It is not my intention to define who is black but there is a strong correlation between "black" and "african". In an attempt to avoid disputes I looked for the most reliable sources of information, eg The United Nations.
By viewing your edits it seems as though you are uncomfortable with higher figures for people who are black or of African descent. I think we should let the numbers speak for themselves and not try to drive them up or down. Yes Nigeria is the most populous african nation but we should not be trying to manipulate the figures so that nigeria can have one fifth of the global black population.
It is for these reasons I believe the published estimates section should be removed. User:Muntuwandi 01:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the sources that you have cited is that are from much earlier dates. John Entine's book was published in 1999 and the other nigerian economic report is from 2001. Africa is the fastest growing continent in the world by population adding about 100 million people every five years [6], [7]. The population of Europe is actually decreasing and the population growth rate in Asia is also decreasing. Therefore comparing figures from 1999 with figures from 2006 ( at least 7 years) will definitely yield different results. User:Muntuwandi 05:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This is starting to look like original research (unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material). -- Ezeu 06:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Because of the fast growth rate, in the future it is therefore possible that due to migration, many countries and regions that did not have a visible black presence will begin to do so. It is for this reason that talk of black population is very relevant.
Yes not everyone in the Afro-latin american diaspora identifies themselves as black. In fact most are multiracial mix of black, amerindian and white. They are still relevant to the discussion because they have a recent ancestor who was black from sub-saharan africa. User:Muntuwandi 16:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
My main issue about the reports is that they are not directly about population. I would like to read john entines book about black athletes but the book is about the NBA and NFL. The second report is about Economic and Financial crimes in Nigeria. If i were attending an international conference on population i would not use these reports as references and I don't think you would either. I would use more credible sources. Yes no statistics are full proof and beyond reproach. but I would still trust those who dedicate their full resources to compiling these statistics than to one who is just mentioning it in passing and has other goals. User:Muntuwandi 22:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It is not my intention to impose a US centric definition on who is black. By using the african diaspora we can determine the upper limit of who can be defined as black based on sub-saharan ancestry. Because latin america is largely multiracial, in most cases the black population is going to be less than the figures but it will not be more. At this point we should not completely exclude anyone of african descent from the conversation. For example Malcolm X's maternal grandfather was a white man so technically he is multiracial. He is to many the symbol of "blackness". Should we exclude him from the discussion. The same can be said about Bob Marley and even Louis Farrakhan User:Muntuwandi 22:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
my main
I have serious issues with the credibility of your [8] , [9] In my opinion it should be common sense that these are not reliable sources but i'll break it down
John Entine
Nigeria fight against economic crimes
see Wikipedia:Reliable sources
Accordingly the sources do not meet the standard of being a reliable source. If you dispute the information in the article I would suggest using current and reliable sources to back it up and not these. However we should not dispute the information for the sake of it. There must be good reason. I am fully aware that this is a very heated and sensitive article with passions running high. There is always a great amount of suspicion on anything new that is introduced.It is for this reason that I have attempted to include information that has the least controversy. I will not define anyone as black but leave that to the reader. I think it is time to move on there are alot more interesting things about the black diaspora that can be included. User:Muntuwandi 04:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is it " a kenyan man" in the first picture on the artice on black people and then only stars in the hite people article. this is so racist. i think this page need a reality check, but i also realy like the way wikipedia devide Black and White people. its sick. I think we need to discuss putting this page into Deletion or a total rewrtie/matrix17
Well their are many photogeniwue white people but anyway the photots only shows renowed people. /matrix17
I commented in the population estimate section, above, without having carefully reviewed the changes introduced in the last month, and especially the last week. I must withdraw any supportive comments I made. The article has systematically been altered to introduce five races as fact. This strong POV must be addressed. Now I see, in this context, the population estimate section has served to reinforce this POV, and especially perniciously by bandying about "admixtures" and allocating parts of one person to different races. I am deleting this section, which serves as a proxy for introducing this material. There is much more clean up necessary. Jd2718 06:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the definitions of "Negro" and "Negroid". The terms Negro/Negroid are not synonymous with the term Black people. Include definitions that refer to Black people, and not definitions that refer to sub-sets of Black people. Alun 07:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Do you know what Black people are called in Cuba? Negro thats what they are called. Think about it. If you go to Cuba and say "where is that black girl" they say "?Donde nina Negroese?" or something like that. Why do people believe black and Negro are different. Negro is Spanish for black. i never understood why AA move from Negro to black, its the samething. That why i just use African-American.-- HalaTruth(????) 21:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Like many, I thought that Sub-Saharans could not contain different races in them, as on one show in the UK quoted Sub-Saharans were not very big travelers but looking at many articles say Arabs had coastal towns along the east coast of Africa in the early 10th century. Thus the native population could of not been as big as it is today so the Arabs must of caught a majority of the population and then untermixed with them. Also the majority of Africans taken by the Europeans in the 16th Century to the New World were from West Africa and had Arabic names. I know that is not proof but it is very likely they had middle eastern ancestry. Caribbean1 17:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Man so-called Sub-Sahara Africa has been home to native Arabs for yonks, pre-Islam all at the time of Axsum. The entire Swahili culture isnt just "black" people. So Sub-Sahara def aint just "blacks". More on that millions of native "blacks" live in North Africa. No they didnt move there to get into Europe, they have always been there, they are "black" and have no connection to Sub-Africa--NONE! they dont speak Bantu and they were not brought there as slaves. Why cant we get our heads around this fact? Arabs and white people came to North Africa with the greeks,Romans, Spanish Arab invasion in 9th c. and pushed the Africans down or mixed with them.-- HalaTruth(????) 21:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I recommend we make this article more similar in structure to the white people article. In particular, we should include a physical traits section as that seems to be a significant part of race (as is seen in the white people article). A 'culture' section would also be a good addition. 212.139.248.227 03:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Isn't that insulting that in the population tabulation... every term has "afro" in front of it. We just can't be humans can we? -- 68.60.55.162 01:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Some people are making out that the one drop rule is something unique to African blood, but if someone has a Jewish mother they are "Jewish", Robert De Niro is 1/4 Italian is considered an Italian American. The list is long of examples. -- HalaTruth(????) 10:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Not 100% true, tiger isnt "black", but Berry is, Bob is. Blackness is dominant so it isnt just some unfair policy. Many "mixed" poeple look like everyday non-mixed "black" people. This is the issue. I am from Africa and even with in one family you get people who are lighter than some mixed people, and in the same family you get dark people. So most of these "mixed" people look like Africans in Africa. So race is about how you look. Bob Marley looks Black, Berry looks Black. When she goes to Ethiopia or Rwanda or Mali she looks like them (and no these Africans are not mixed). Only when they tell you they are mixed do you know it. Just look at Lenny Kravitz (with Kinky hair), he is mixed, look at Prince, he isnt mixed, Vanessa Willliam (with Green eyes) isnt mixed. And again having Jewish blood makes you Jewish, you can worship Jesus all you like you are still Jewish. Indian and white = Indian as well (UK) -- HalaTruth(????) 22:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
"the right to decide" can i as an African decide to be not African? why not let everyone decide then. So next race box should be free to select what race you want to be. If you have 1/8 Indian in you, tick whatever on any given day you feel like ticking. Indian + White = INdian (UK not america)-- HalaTruth(????) 00:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Lenny Kravitz mother isnt Jewish, and he is Jewish. Same with Slash-- HalaTruth(????) 00:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I take it you dont like the one drop rule, i guess it makes no sense but i am talking about people who have more than 1 drop like 50%-- HalaTruth(????) 01:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I hear statistics saying that the proportion of whites to nonwhites is decreasing in America and Europe, explaining it as differences in reproductive rates based on cultural whatnot, as well as immigration.. but considering the prevalence of the one-drop rule (SINBAD is black? How exactly is Sinbad BLACK?) it could just be the fact that any 'mixed race' breeding produces nonwhites no matter what, for dozens of generations.
Can we avoid bringing our personal issues and feelings into this article. Though this is the talk page, it is not a social networking forum. some of the stuff i am reading is really quite embarrassing. we should stick to the facts ie, what can be defined, what can be proved and what can be measured. User:Muntuwandi 03:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Deevoice and Xmas girl. bullet point the issues and discuss, i dont know why Xmasgirl is complaining about Deceevoice edits, you cant revert the entire thing, there must be some content which can be keep, and Xmas girl 3RR is a problem and you will be blocked, use the talk page to discuss. Let others understand the issues so a resolution can be gained, because all that will happen is the same why you can revert they can revert back, pointless.-- HalaTruth(????) 12:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Although America’s one drop rule originated as a racist attempt to keep the white race pure of any black contamination, today some of it’s biggest defenders are African-Americans such as professor John Michael Spencer. According to American Renaissance :
Prof. Spencer is particularly touchy about the idea that some of the icons of black history might have been "multiracial" rather than black. Nothing seems to infuriate him more than the thought of the white parents saying to their hybrid children, "Colin Powell, Lena Horne, Alex Haley, and Malcolm X were multiracial, just like you." He thinks this is nothing less than the theft of black history, adding, "The United States has a history of this kind of grand larceny." "Is Black History Month to be replaced by Multiracial History Month?" he asks. For Afro-centrists this may be a real worry because without the one drop rule, not even the most brazen of them can claim that Nefertiti, Jesus, Rameses, and Beethoven were "black." [7]
As this is being added and removed in the edit war, so start by discussing this problem.-- HalaTruth(????) 13:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I suggest, in the interest of thoroughness, we start at the beginning, edit by edit. XmasGirl's reverts begin with the first paragrah. What's the problem there? deeceevoice 13:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
But *sigh*, in the interest of cooperation, I'll start with your question, HalaTruth. My edit note explains: "There must be another way to make this point. The author being quoted is attributing emotions to this fellow rather than making a purely rational, dispassionate argument.Find another, more NPOV source."
The author's quote uses value-laden language to characterize the other person's views. The guy starts off calling the man he's criticizing "touchy." It means (going to the online dictionary) "marked by readiness to take offense on slight provocation." Already, he's engaging in a personal attack, ascribing his ideological opponent's views to some sort of character flaw or emotional imbalance, rather than simply a difference of opinion/perspective. The language is clearly polemical, argumentative and disrespectful, rather than objective; its obvious intent is to ridicule and denigrate/belittle.
Because of the nature of the www, all sorts of written material is readily available for use in articles. Some of it is noteworthy, analytical and useful. Some of it is deliberately argumentative, inflammatory, derisive -- pick an ugly adjective. As the society has become less and less civil, so has the level of public/political discourse. This is an encyclopedia, not a political journal. The sources we choose should meet a high standard.
I haven't taken issue with the point the editor rather obviously is trying to interject/make; I've taken issue with the source being used to do so. The writer clearly has an axe to grind -- as does the editor, Christmasgirl, as she has demonstrated with her non-stop edit warring and her declaration on my talk page that "Black supremacists. Afrocentrics piss [her] off...." My suggestion in the edit note was to find a NPOV source.
And the edit was made was before I checked into the nature of American Renaissance and this guy. The language immediately struck me as inappropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedia. It is clearly an ad hominem attack.
Similarly, Christmasgirl's edit notes -- when she's bothered to include them -- have been little more than ad hominem attacks directed at me, with no credible attempt whatsoever to justify her ongoing black reversion of material.
I did a very brief check on AR, the source of this quote and the author. The publication itself is a rag. The author is widely regarded as a racist and admits to being a white separatist. Yes, he's been published, but so has David Duke. There are plenty of people with degrees frontin' like authorities on this, that or the other thing. And in today's world where everyone has his/her 15 minutes of fame, and at a time when the mass media seem particularly driven by ratings based on battling, intemperate (usually) red-faced talking heads screaming invectives at one another, one can find just about anything on anything in print or online and claim it as a source. It does not mean, however, that we should, as editors, freely and irresponsibly cut and paste such garbage into an article because it is a convenient way of injecting our own biases into an article under the guise of scholarship. Such thinly veiled POV should fairly shout at any remotely sentient/intelligent, objective reader.
And we should call one another on such bullsh*t.
Wikipedia should strive for a high standard when it comes to sources. We should not give the impression that these mental cretins and beyond-the-fringe media whores are reputable, reliable, trustworthy sources -- merely because they have a vanity press, a podium (and there are thousands upon thousands of them -- millions, even, in cyberspace) from which to spew their intemperate venom/rhetoric. Let's not dignify their b*tchy, POV blatherings with inclusion in an encyclopedia, for God's sake. Find someone without an axe to grind -- at least someone with broad credibility. And not some racist lunatic frontin' like decency. U get my drift? deeceevoice 14:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Now, let's take it from the top. Paragraph one. What's the beef? deeceevoice 14:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
If you "could take or leave" my changes, then why did change them -- wholesale? Your argument is a cop-out, and it's evident. When an editor makes carefully considered edits, then you are obliged to state a reason for changing those edits. What you did was an unreasoned, knee-jerk, blanket revert of several changes that were accompanied by rational edit summaries, and you did so with nothing but dismissive, ad hominem language in your edit summaries -- when you bothered to include one at all.
Just as with your puerile vandalism of the White people article, this demonstrates an unthinking contempt for the wiki process and for the contributions of other editors. News flash: this is a collaborative process. If you are unwilling to work with editors in a mature, civil way to produce a quality product, then you'd best turn your attentions to one of the thousands of blogs in cyberspace where disruptive, intemperate, adolescent conduct and mindless demagoguery are accepted modes of conduct.
I stated my objections clearly to the quotation from that racist hack clearly. If you want to introduce information/a commentary regarding the opinion of a majority of African-Americans in this nation with regard to who is and who is not black -- because the majority of blacks in the U.S. think similarly to the "touchy" man referred to in the quote -- then there shouldn't be a problem finding something acceptable. The author's value-laden, smirking language is not. It's grist for a political rag, a blog, even -- but not for an encyclopedia. deeceevoice 19:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, don't misunderstand me. There is a difference between being controversial and being a hack. Afrocentrist scholarship of the level of that of Cheickh Ante Diop is highly respected worldwide. When UNESCO undertook a project to present a comprehensive/exhaustive history of the African continent, Diop featured prominently in the epic, finished product. His scholarship had to be presented and defended to a rigorous review by a panel of eminent historians before inclusion in the multi-volume work. He proved to the satisfaction of those seated that dynastic Egypt was a black civilization, and this is what has been recorded in the finished product. There was no countervailing argument presented in the book. Why? because Diop's scholarship and documentation were unassailable. He not only successfully justified his findings, he completely blew away his detractors. He devastated them -- not with demagoguery, or artifice, or ad hominem insults; point by point, he presented the facts. Once the evidence was gathered and all the arguments were in, there was no credible opposition left standing. So, those of you who, knee-jerk fashion, discount outright the work of any and every historian, scholar, academician because you or someone else has slapped an "Afrocentric" label on it, may be closing your eyes to what was in the time of Herodotus, and is now accepted elsewhere in high academic circles the truth. Diop's status is already established. Is he controversial in some circles? Yes. But he was most certainly no hack. deeceevoice 20:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm crunching a deadline and haven't read the changes in detail. I'll come back when I have more time. But I did notice this in the summary from Christmasgirl in the edit history: "...but without the so-called personal attack against spencer that pissed off Deeceevoice" Once again, unproductive, inaccurate language. I'm not "pissed off." Further the nature of my objections were very clear. Quite the contrary. It is you who stated you were "pissed off" on my talk page. Do not attribute to me motivations which do not exist. I suppose, however, we are making progress. You're finally leaving edit summaries. Tone down the nastiness, girl, and try to behave yourself. deeceevoice 20:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The population estimates are a problem. They use 2 of arguably (and in this article argued) many definitions of Black people. They have cobbled together numbers from many sources, constituting new synthesis and Original Research. This is not all that surprising; the article has been edited over the last few weeks to present Black primarily as a race - but there are not and will not be good sources to document world population by race. Jd2718 20:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
all the information is cited from reputable sources like the UN and the Population reference bureau. There is no original research or manufacturing of information. User:Muntuwandi 20:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I know you have expressed reservations about the population estimate. Also several times you have expressed your wish to have this entire article deleted. You are not giving sufficient reason as to why you think this is original research when all the information is cited from reputable sources. If you have any problems, let us use the talk page and avoid unnecessary edit wars. Please detail exactly what you disapprove of.For the moment the informatin should remain simply because it is cited. It is not mismatched because it is all concurrent. User:Muntuwandi 20:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
so why not black people. User:Muntuwandi 06:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
It is for this reason that statistics are important. Bush is not the only one who does not know there are blacks in brazil.
User:Muntuwandi
00:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is counting black people seeming to be an impossible task.
I would like to know what is wrong with mentioning these government published statistics. User:Muntuwandi 01:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Muntuwandi 02:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I have not been involved in this dispute, but I'm jumping in to share my thoughts....
I often ask my 7th grade students to go to the library and find out the "population of the world" They always come in with wildly different numbers because we do not really know the population of the world in any precise sense. For all our hubris and zeal for counting we simply haven't gotten around to assigning a number to every human being on the planet. (My students are quite shocked to discover this, they tend to expect the numbers to be out there and exact right down to the last person.)
Counting all of the black people in the world is an even more troubling task due to the fluid and inconsistent definitions of black.
That all said, I do think it would be appropriate and consistent with wikipedia policies to cite a source that claims to have estimated the total black population of the world, if any scholars have claimed to do this. I looked in Africana and found no numbers on this topic. But if someone can find a source I think it would be sensible to mention it.
We can't synthesize this information ourselves, doing so would constitute original research. IMNSHO.
Also, we should check to see of the other "ethnic group" articles have population numbers. I think it is important to keep these articles all consistent. (I see you have done that...) futurebird 02:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes other ethnic groups have some statistics and distribution. These include
"The boundary between original research and compilation may be blurred. For example, classification may be as non-original as simply putting things in alphabetical order."
"There are now nearly 800 million Africans on the continent and perhaps up to another 100 million persons of African descent living in other parts of world" [10]
the whole issue about the population is not aimed at advancing a viewpoint or to get an exact number, but just to add context. Are we talking of 50 people or 5 billion people and where are they(alaska, japan, greenland?). Without this context one might end up like president bush, not knowing that there are any blacks in brazil. User:Muntuwandi 05:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
The weight of this article has been tilted heavily towards the five race or four race point of view over the last few weeks. We need to reread for Reliable Sources and proper weight. Jd2718 20:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Everybody is mixed to some degree, Spanish Italians etc, If we must discuss multi-racial limit it near mixed race, mom, dad, Else we will have to add that the Spanish arent white. The Ethiopian thing will start many problems again, just look at the edit history. Arabs are a Semitic people look up what racial semitic means. So how far back do we want to go, if we go back 70,000 years everybody is African.-- HalaTruth(????) 22:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
But races are social constructions. Humans used arbitrary subjective biological logic to define blacks, whites, Asians ect. So if we socially constructed these categories then we can socially construct an intermediate between these categories. I think you guys have missed the whole point of the massive multiracial movement. These people are not saying races are scientific, they're saying if you insist on assigning people to races based on antiquated racist labels like black and white, they are going to assert a middle groind. They're refusing to be pigeon-holed, and I say more power to them Iseebias
The day that color based racism ends I would be right up there in recommending this article for deletion. But until then not discussing the issues is being in racial denial. User:Muntuwandi 04:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
These remain one of the most controversial issues in western society. Malcolm X talked about it extensively in his autobiography almost half a century ago. Today it is no less controversial. I just hope that we do not recycle old arguments that have been debated over and over again. we should move forward and bring new insights. What is tiger woods or Halle berry or ethiopians? are now getting stale. Maybe according to Chappelle, let us have a racial draft. User:Muntuwandi 02:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe you're bringing Ethiopians into this. For the most part, they're not mixed with anything. They're as black as the Kenyan man pictured in the article. deeceevoice 06:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to let such abysmal ignorance go unchallenged. And don't tell me what I may or may not comment upon. deeceevoice 07:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
there is only one view on the topic of ET, then there is a few academics with their bin to remove the noblity of Ethiopian civilization from African claim. But 2 white people saying something outbalances 2 billion Africans opinion-- HalaTruth(????) 20:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
its strange that someone get blocked from discussing on this page because wikipedia doesnt excepts racist behaviour. then why is this whole article about "black people" quite racist in my opinion. to define people in to races like black and white is just wrong. and to have a "kenyan man" on one of the pictures in the article and then have only celebrities in the "white people" section is just very very strange i think and wrong. i think we should discuss the deletion of this article bacuase i cant see any reason of defining people into races.. i dont see my friend as my "black friend" i see her as a friend i think this article is wrong wrong wrong... /matrix17
I don't like the current version of the gallery. It's a more a showcase of our favorite black heroes that makes the article seem amateurish & adds little encyclopedic info. In addition, it displays only a limited spectrum of the people who could be considered black, & implies that some definitions are more objective than others by saying those people are considered black by a significant number of people (significant number of people is a weasle word). I'd much prefer a more diverse gallery that showcases the absurdity racial classification by drawing attention to all the inconsistencies & how blackness is a constantly evolving social construction that keeps redefining itself. The following is a very rough idea of the direction I'd like to take the gallery in & I'd like to get your opinions & suggestions (most of the claims are cited in the article): Iseebias
I agree with Iseebias. There is no generally accepted conception of blackness because it's a socio-political construct and not a biological one, and the gallery should reflect that. The Irish should be re-added to the gallery as well. Furthermore, the gallery isn't ment to be someones personal shrine and shouldn't be misused as a place of POV worship ("King Of Kings globally seen as the king of Black men").
SecurID
15:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
At the heart of the problem are some who strongly feel that this article should be deleted, and I can understand their ideals. I share some of them too. But the reality is race and color play an important part of everyday life especially for people of color. Take for example,
France does not officially recognize race and ethnicity. The ideal is that all citizens are equally French. No statistics are kept on race, religion and ethnic origin. To do so would be to encourage what the French call communautarisme, the idea that identity-based subcultures can exist within a society, a concept most French see as profoundly threatening to Republican values based on individual citizenship.
After the 2005 race riots in france everyone saw that these ideals are actually a myth and as the National Catholic reporter put it "Race is a reality for everyone in France except the French state." User:Muntuwandi 04:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I would just like to say everyone is colored, There is no blacks or whites, because they are not colors they are shades. So if black people are colored that means white people must be colored. Kind of like native americans, there not indians to all idiots who say there indian still. They are just simply americans and not from INDIA! White is the incorrect term for a "Caucasian"(note the asian part) person just so you know, white people aren't actually white. Secondly any kind of racial pride is just plain stupid because it all goes back to the Only race,the Inferior race, THE HUMAN RACE!
TERMINATE ALL HUMANS WUHAHAHAHAHa
-just a joke. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
24.208.79.61 (
talk)
19:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
Do u know there is only one biological human race? All children of one African woman. What would she say if she could see the world today? That her own children would come home and enslave their brothers and sisters. So as irrelvant as race is, it is relevant because we are defined by it, we are privalleged or not privalleged by it. the more we use it the more we have to use it.-- HalaTruth(????) 19:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
(Disclaimer: I don't think anything POV slipped into this comment, and if something sounds POV, I certainly didn't intend for it to. Also, I would have implemented most of these changes, but I don't believe that the current restriction will allow me to edit the article myself.)
1. To preserve its relevance to the article, shouldn't the picture of "a Kenyan man" be changed to "a black man" or "a black Kenyan"?
(Note: I don't really care about that, it just popped into my head.)
2. There are multiple flaws in this quote: "The difference in skin color between black and whites is however a minor genetic difference accounting for just one letter in 3.1billion letters of DNA. code[4] [sic]".
I have fought, and failed, to make the main theme of this article be closely coupled to current mainstream scientific reasoning, instead of pseudoscientific nonsense. I have no objection to including pseudoscience, but it should be clearly identified as such. This is an interesting link that shows what claims of separate human races can lead some extremists to do: click here for a chart. But I know it is not politically correct among most of the editors of this page to admit that maybe skin color is just that; skin color, and basically a very minor difference among humans.-- Filll 17:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
"Until the colour of the skin is of no more significance than the colour of the eyes there will never be peace," Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia to the United Nations, SqueakBox 17:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
african brazilians are a small minority.most brazilians are mixed race. If racist americans call everyone who has a drop of african blood in their veins an african, mostly for the purpose of oppressing them into a racial underclass, this is an international encyclopedia and such concepts should not be refered for racist reasons originating in one country. the vast majority of brazilians are both proud of their african and european heritages and refer to themselves as "pardos", meaning coloured and mixed race. less than 10% of brazilians refer to themselves as "black".Since race is an unscientific concept it is the self-identification that counts. if you doubt this see references in Brazil and Demographics of Brazil. 84.90.18.136 19:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
why is there a white person in the gallery? What would happen if someone put a pic of black person on the white people article. That should not be acceptable. If one sees the documentary African American Lives, in it henry louis gates talks about how back in the day whites would not allow blacks to congregate in church by themselves. There always had to be one white preacher or pastor in the black churches. This reminds me of the same thing. User:Muntuwandi 02:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I reverted to the other version of the gallery. The inclusion of the guy who plays Tony Soprano is ridiculous. Diop was referring to southern Italians/Sicilians, and the operative word (though I haven't seen the exact quote; it's not provided) is "may". Clearly, Diop was not writing about all Italians. deeceevoice 04:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually there is a black person's picture in the white people article. Iseebias what is the obsession with white people in the black people article. there is an article for white people. User:Muntuwandi 05:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
There are several editors who contribute to this article. Therefore if only 2 editors agree on something it is still very far from consensus. I have noticed that "consensus" is used to justify edits when in actual fact many other editors are in disagreement. User:Muntuwandi 04:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- I seem to be a little confused but maybe someone can help. Is this guy white or asian. User:Muntuwandi 04:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not certain I get the objection to the language of the lead. The alternatives just don't make sense syntactically. Seriously, what's the problem? deeceevoice 04:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Today started with the lead of the article in this condition:
Deeceevoice edited with an edit summary of Deleted. Wholly unnecessary -- and this isn't a bona fide footnote. There is no reference cited, nor does there need to be one. this to:
I put the deleted information back, but edited as well with this summary del "lineage" and associated ideas of race from opening:
Later today Deeceevoice used an edit summary of Tweaked the head to change to
First, the edit summary was misleading. All of us, especially in a contentious article, should make sure that we are using accurate edit summaries.
I have put the lead back to where it started today. If there is a need to change it, please discuss here.
The elements that are important: there is not a fixed definition of who is Black. People are not (the color) black. Jd2718 05:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe the ambiguity of being black is very much overstated and exaggerated. there may be a few exceptions here and there but by large people who are black are very easily recognizable. Some have made it seem as though it is very complicated. Michael jordan is black everywhere on this planet. No one will ever say that he is white or asian. No one will ever say that George bush is black- anywhere on this planet. User:Muntuwandi 05:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I definitely believe the lead should have more detail on physical appearance. User:Muntuwandi 05:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
It's worth reading today's valuable input on Brazil. Only 1 in 20 Brazilians are Black, but over half would be Black if they moved to the US. It's not skin color - but it can be skin color. It's not national origin - but it can be national origin. You may be certain that the Ethiopians in DC are Black; I have a book in my hand that says they are Caucasian (the racial part of the book is garbage), but just because some people in one race-obsessed country think they can categorize everyone in the world, that doesn't make the categories constant, accurate, or even meaningful.
Articles about meaningful ethnic groups, Nigerians, East Africans, African Americans - physical characteristics make sense for them. Population estimates make sense for them. We can agree broadly on who we are talking about. That's not the case here. Jd2718 05:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC) Jd2718 05:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it is a minority of people who have unorthodox views that being black is so flexible. A Nigerian an East African or an African American appearance-wise can easily be interchangeable. but you cannot mistake a nigerian from a white swede. Impossible.
User:Muntuwandi
05:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
If you agree Nigerians are black everywhere then that should serve as the starting point for the definition. People who would be considered black everywhere plus regional variations User:Muntuwandi 14:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Deeceevoice wrote:
And that's just wrong. Black people are characterized in different ways in different places. In this country, it's social. In Brazil, it's social. But the social groups don't match.
Some people claim that the classification, and that's all it is, is racial, or biological, or genetic. I think they are wrong.
But the lead should reflect that what Black is, is contentious. And it should not say what the social, biological, racial, or whatever factors are, because they very from source to source, and place to place (and from time period to time period). That's what the body of the article needs to do. Jd2718 05:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Basic reading comprehension and the issue of misleading edit summaries
What about "blacks" who pass as "white"? SecurID 12:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
what is with focussing on five legged dogs or the man with 12 fingers. Yes these cases exist and are very interesting. but they do not reflect the average dog or average person. The same goes for the white guy who is black.
This article needs to be locked to prevent racism posts that are frequent on this page. Shot menot 18:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Err sub-Saharan Africa isnt desert it is tropics. The pic, while I like the comment, is not appropriate at all for the article. Can we get a tropical picture? SqueakBox 04:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
What makes this article look poor is when POV run through the article. Kolfi is black by all definitions original research?. This race in this place is identical to Sub-Sahara Africa {NPOV}}. Either keep it simple or leave it alone. The text is enought to explain the complex topic of black identify. It is a waste of time to add it in any attempt to gain clarity. Photo's can be added to relevant sections. the grand list introduces controversy without offering the reader anything more than a shop list. Also a gallery with a sub text cannot do justice to the topic.-- HalaTruth(????) 09:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Halaqah. We don't need a gallery, especially not after the latest image Deeceevoice was thoughtful enough to add to the African race section. I'm sure all the editors are editing in good faith, but it's just too easy for complex issues to get oversimplified in the gallery. For example Ethiopians being synonymous with blacks. Ethiopian at the time was a broad term for all Africans so putting that caption with citizens of the country now called ethiopian gives a misleading impression. The gallery as a whole is not needed. Much better to concentrate on the text Iseebias
I think 4 editors have agreed on this, i think Deeceevoice is the last editor who likes the gallery.-- HalaTruth(????) 15:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The gallery is a good idea but the issue of using it to further an opinion is a problem. for about a month there were no changes, all of sudden it became a big deal. I really don't mind who would be in it as long as there are regular black men and women from around the world. The easiest are those who have little controversy about being black so that the focus is more about who they are, and not whether they are black or not. User:Muntuwandi 20:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The only type of gallery that might be useful would be one that is devoid of POV pushing captions, & one where we could all agree who is considered black, black/multiracial, black/Pacific islander. Highly controversial people like Ethiopians should be avoided. A model like this might work: Iseebias
The following individuals are black by all definitions cited in this article:
The following individuals are considered black by some, multiracial by others:
The following individuals are considered black by some, Pacific Islander by others:
I tried to balance it to make half men and half women within each category, and also for mix of American and non-American. I chose not people I like the best, but high quality photos. I tried to show as much diversity within each section as possible without causing controversy. I tried to include diverse mixes in the Afro-multiracial section Iseebias
Side point Haile Berry actually said no one believed she was mixed, this is funny because i was shocked as well when i heard she was, so this is further proof that Blackness isnt about genes and the one-drop rule (more like 50%) is weak because Blackness is dominant. Many times you dont know someone is mixed, now how strong is that? Prince for example is lighter than berry but not mixed.-- HalaTruth(????) 23:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
What? Mixed people are considered black, too. Why remove Obama? He clearly considers himself black -- and most African-Americans do, as well.
Further, what's with the emphasis on only Africans? Where are the West Indians, African-Americans? (Michael Jordan is included, yes, but he's as dark as any brother from the continent. What about a whole lot of other African-Americans who are clearly mixed (and I'm not talking "biracial"; I'm talking about the usual amalgam of peoples; we're mongrels, for God's sake)? The definition of "black" by implication is getting narrower and narrower. No Ethiopians. Not a single African-American!?? Hell, I'm mixed with (obviously) African (likely from Angola or the Congo), Cherokee and Cado Indian, Irish and God knows what else. And I'm black! Always have been, always will be.
I object to this silliness!
And why more than one example of Black-Asians and South Pacific peoples? This doesn't make a bit of sense to me! WTH? deeceevoice 02:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- The debate about Ethiopians will go on forever. My own personal opinion is that Ethiopians have a unique appearance in the world but are still black and recognizably african. there is a notion or stereotype that ethiopian women are attractive. Then I hear they look like caucasians. The implication of this is that caucasians are attractive and blacks are not. Praise for the beauty of ethiopian women often comes from black people- self hate I guess.
Even if an Ethiopian had white skin they would still look different from a german or a russian. According to the map the average skin tone in Ethiopia is moderately dark(level 3 on the "blackness" scale), that plus the fact they live in Africa, have an African culture is enough for them to be black.
Technically there is nothing wrong with having a larger gallery to accomodate a diversity of opinions. Four rows is okay. but since we would like to keep it as small as possible we should focus on the diversity of black people and avoid repititions.
I think our focus is too external ie how are blacks defined with respect to other races. we need more internal discusion on "blackness". There are various black sub-cultures that can be brought.
One interesting but controversial issue regarding the concept of race is blacks and sports. According to John Entine Blacks of West African origin dominate the sprints but are lousy long distance runners. Kenyans dominate long distance events but are lousy sprinters. This difference shows that being black is only skin deep. race and sports
Arabized may not be accurate as Arabs are relative newcomers in North Africa. Whereas Ethiopians have been possibly been living in the Area for 20, 000 years. Maybe it is Arabs who have been Ethiopianized.
User:Muntuwandi
05:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The article stated that white people do not have melanin. That information is incorrect, as can easily be checked via Google. See, e.g., http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/07/skin_cancer.html Albino people may not have any skin pigment, but even we northern European types whose capillary systems show through their skin in the high northern latitudes will tan up fairly well when exposed to UV. Chinese people can be as white as paper under their clothes, but the same people can tan as dark as many Afro-Americans. So I changed the wording slightly. In the process I was surprised to learn that black people can be subject to skin cancers too. So a believer in [race] as a tool for medical guidance might be tempted to direct resources away from public health announcements to darker populations telling them to check themselves for skin cancer, watch strange moles, etc. on the mistaken theory that the darker people are not at risk. It's true that the darker groups get less skin cancer, but when people in those groups do get skin cancer it will often be the worst kind. Just another reason to doubt the utility of [race] as a category for dealing with the world, IMHO. P0M 23:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
Anyone is at risk of skin cancer, and white people do have melanin. The amounts depending on where they are from. According to the map the lowest levels of pigmentation are found in Northern Europe and Scandanavia. Stephen Oppenheimer uses the term depigmented to describe the lowest levels. According to the hypothesis light skinned people are more prone to skin cancer and dark skinned people are more prone to rickets. The hypothesis further states that virtually depigmented people are only found in the Northern Hemisphere because there is no land mass that is habitable at comparable latitudes in the Southern Hemisphere. Hypothetically if weather in Antartica was not as harsh as it is, if it was connected to Africa, then Africans living in Antartica over time would become depigmented and their skin would resemble caucasians. Conversly light skinned people who came to the americas through alaska from asia, became darker skinned native americans when the populated central and south america.
Accordingly it is possible for any human population over time to change appearance in a different location. Stephen Oppenheimer believes white Australians are slowly becoming black.
That said African people may still have the greatest ability to modify appearance as they have the greatest genetic diversity User:Muntuwandi 00:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the subheads in the gallery, because they are problematic. Iseebias, however, keeps reinserting them.
lol. I just knew you would cite that page. Now, go back to that same page, click the link to "Somalis" and read this:
Genetics
The most distinct separation is between African and non-African populations. The northeastern-African -- that is, the Ethiopian and Somali -- populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations."
...The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity -- and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis -- makes simple-admixture models less likely[emphasis added]; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) -- that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe."
Translation: what I said.
You've got a point with Marley. We can substitute another West Indian, one who's not "mixed" -- though I don't know anyone who's tried to say Marley wasn't black.
Now, I really do have to get to work. deeceevoice 09:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Because this isn't about agreement in every instance. It is about presenting examples of people who are called/known as "black." The precise definition(s) of who are black and who are not vary depending on a variety of factors. And that's the entire point. The lead (2nd paragraph) clearly states as much!' You can't state the definition is in dispute and then cleave to a narrow band of humanity because it suits your own perspective. Nor, certainly, can you leave out a people who were/are emblematic of black people -- Ethiopians --simply because not everybody agrees they are black (and that is a fringe notion by all accounts. The facts are they're still commonly called "black" regardless of what theory one postulates about their origins). They commonly -- historically and today -- are called, and call themselves, black. That's sufficient to have them included. I mean there are people in Africa who will look at Condoleezza Rice and a good many African-Americans and claim we're not black, either! So, you're going to leave anyone African-American who could pass the paper bag test out of the category? Absurd! deeceevoice 11:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The term Arab admixture is technically incorrect because Arabs are newcomers in the area. Arabs arrived in North Africa in the 7th century AD by which Ethiopia was already an established empire. The genetic similarities are likely because the invading arabs mixed with the indigenous populations in the area(eg berbers) who had been mixing with ethiopians. The distinct facial features of Ethiopians are too prominent to be as a result of admixing. If they are any similarities with other groups it is probably genetic coincidence. What makes an Ethiopian look Ethiopian is not other races but it is the ethiopians themselves as they have some of the oldest DNA. Outside of Africa the closest resemblance to Ethiopians are actually Indians and not caucasians. User:Muntuwandi 05:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
condi int culturally black i think we should put someone else, bellafonte and others doubt how black she is. better to find another female, jada pinkett, and get better images for the tureg. funny AA have more "white" blood than ethiopians so y not put all of the AA in a mix race section. this is just to show the absurdity of the ongoing debate.-- HalaTruth(????) 11:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Some of the most mixed people on the planet are African Americans, Slavery has left so much White blood that even when AA go to Africa they are know as mixed, not pure. Every Caribbean person has between 80-60% non-African blood, they also have Carib blood. So how fine can we take this point, either we keep it simple or we take it complex. YOu cannot have AA in the pure cat and Ethiopians in the confused cat. 70:30 and 80:20 is all complex linage (if that argument holds).Please review original research it is pure original research? and it will only take a less fussy editor 2 sec to delete it, just like the population thing. someone like yom for example.-- HalaTruth(????) 12:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
But such matters are not -- I repeat -- not the purview of this particular article. This is about who is considered black, and Ethiopians fit the bill -- even the so-called "Caucasoid" ones. deeceevoice 12:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
And just where exactly in the text you've cited does it actually, precisely say that geneticists have said that Ethiopians aren't "black"? deeceevoice 12:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Again, this article isn't about "race." It is not about genetics. It is about who is considered "black." And, again, several groups treated in this article are considered black by some and not black by others -- as is noted in the second paragraph of the article. The parameters of who is considered black and who is not are spelled out early on; such classifications are variable. You, yourself acknowledge, however, that the majority of people on the planet consider Ethiopians black. What more do you need?
But for the sake of argument, percentages vary, depending on which study you're citing. This [21] particular study clusters slightly more than half (52%) of Ethiopia's three, major population groups with black Africans -- which comprise only 75% of the population -- citing clades and haplogroups specific to sub-Saharan Africa. The other half studied also have Asian affinities (which the study links to the "Out of Africa" model, which does not speak to admixture, but to shared characteristics, which it cryptically discounts out of hand -- presumably because it is irrelevant to admixture -- and does not discuss this matter further) and Arab and Near East affinities, citing clades and haplogroups more common, but not specific to Arabia and the Near East. This population also was found to possess two additional haplotypes which are consonant with black Africa -- "more common" there -- (but which for some reason aren't fleshed out in the article in terms of frequency). One must look at a tiny schematic (which I don't have time, or likely, frankly, the knowledge) to try to make sense of that piece.
And I'm using this study here precisely because the investigators took great pains to differentiate among Ethiopians -- who are not one, single people. I live in D.C. We have the greatest population of Ethiopians of any metropolitan area outside of Addis, and I see Ethiopians virtually every time I hit the street. And I know what they look like. (And I know they consider themselves black.) So, I'm always leery of studies that speak of "Ethiopians" as one group and then proceed to make generalizations about the entire populace of the country as a result. Further, it makes me wonder which populations they actually studied -- if the findings were skewed because the investigators started out with an unrepresentative sampling of the population.
So, with this study, we're looking at the three, major population groups of a nation, with the highest degree of genetic diversity -- because the other 25% are minority groups who cluster solidly with sub-Saharan Africans. So, right off the bat, you're already looking at 64 percent of the population that clusters solidly with sub-Saharan Africa -- read "with no meaningful/discernible admixture or relatedness to outside populations whatsoever." I haven't read further to determine the percentage of relatedness to other populations is represented by the other 36 percent, but suffice it to say that the vast majority of Ethiopians, taken as a group, across ethnicities, cluster genetically with sub-Saharan Africans. I mean what am I missing here? deeceevoice 13:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Bob Marley was born to white british father and black mother Cedella Booker. Marley had very little or no contact with his father or his fathers relatives growing up. He was raised entirely by his black mother. Therefore even though he was genetically multiracial, culturally he was black jamaican. He spoke like a black jamaican, his buddies Peter Tosh and Bunny Wailer were black , he married a black cuban Rita Marley and the reggae music he played can be traced back to the ancient drum rythyms of black africa.
What is interesting is that in the new world many traditions that have long been abandoned in Africa have been preserved in the Americas. In Africa after colonialism there was a desire to become modernized quickly. For example traditional mysticisms and religions like voodoo were condescended upon by the African elite, and the church chasitized them as being demonic and pagan. Upwardly mobile blacks would disassociate themselves from such traditions and many traditions would be lost and forgotten. However in the Americas these traditions would be used as symbol of resistance to the oppression of slavery. Many blacks linked the church with slavery and thus continued to practice ancient religions. The result is Voodoo, Candomble, and Orixas are openly practiced in Haiti and brazil but are rarely seen in public in Africa.
Afro brazilian Walson Botelho says
African culture is stronger in our part of Brazil than in some parts of Africa. Several gods forgotten in Africa are still worshiped in Bahia.
The basic point is that even though there has been extensive mixing in the americas, elements of black african culture are still pervasive and in some cases more african than on the mother continent. User:Muntuwandi 15:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Condi is Congo would be a mulatto, she is at least 10%-35% non-African, most AA are, we dont know her DNA. It is OR to add her, or any AA into a pure cat. Their lingage is complex. So how can we seperate out Ethiopia. As Deeceevoice has said at length, the genetic map of Ethiopia is not enough to draw conclusions about all Ethiopians. Today and in the past they are the definitive Black people. for heaven sake Ethiopian means burnt face. Original research means you are as editors adding unreferenced groupings and not applying the criteria across the board. According to the critics on this very page, Ethiopian, AA, San none of them are black, they are only African. So the gallery contradicts the text. To seperate out groups is to make the gallery worst. Not everyone agrees about averages because some AA might have 99% while some may have 60% African genes, thus the average is the middle of those studied. Basically no African American fits the pure section, or no San fits the pure section as they were called COLORED under SA law. how much % DNA do you need to be considered mixed 80% or 60% this is why it is original research-- HalaTruth(????) 14:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Hybrid populations with multiple lines of descent are to be characterized in just those terms: as of multiple descent. Thus, American Negroids are individuals most of whose ancestors from 15 to 5000 generations ago were sub- Saharan African. Specifying 'most' more precisely in a way that captures ordinary usage may not be possible. '> 50%' seems too low a threshold; my sense is that ordinary attributions of race begin to stabilize at 75%. An individual, half of whose ancestors are East Asian and half Caucasian, is to be categorized as just that, of half northeast Asian and half Caucasian ancestry. Nothing in continental cladistics precludes mixed ancestry, any more than the concept of a breed of dog excludes mixtures. [11]
The highest estimates anyone has ever claimed for Ethiopians is 64% sub-Saharan which means they would not be considered negroid by Levin, but multiracial. African-Americans, who are on average 83% sub-Saharan, would qualify as negroid on average. Iseebias
Wrong again, Iseebias -- if you're using the figures I've presented above. That's 64% of Ethiopians solidly clustering in the "sub-Saharan" African group with no evidence of admixture or affinities w/outside (non black African) populations. That doesn't even begin to address the other 34 percent who are said to evidence admixture (though that, too, is disputed, as I've mentioned earlier), or some affinities/similarities with Arabs and Eurasians - but who clearly also have affinities with black African groups to varying degrees. Even though they are said to cluster more closely with Arabs and Eurasians, they very clearly aren't completely Arab or Eurasian, so the degree to which they do so (the variables involved) cannot be known without consulting very detailed genetic schematics (which, frankly, I don't have a clue how to interpret). So, even if this 34 percent were, say, 75 percent Arab and Eurasian -- taking Levin's definition of the threshold for "racial" identity (so, assuming this 34 group is non-black by Lewin's definition, which is being wa-aay too generous) -- then the final result is that Ethiopians are 74.5 percent indigenous, black African, with 25.5 percent with sufficient evidence of non-indigenous accretions so as to be classified as non-black (in effect, quadroons -- whiter-looking than, say, Alicia Keys, who is mulatto -- the very notion of which is absurd; it's way too extreme). And that's, again, being overly generous with the "Ethiopians aren't black" nonsense. Looks to me like Ethiopia was -- and remains overwhelmingly -- a black, African nation (genetically and historically), a matter which has never been in question among Ethiopians themselves. deeceevoice 05:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Wrong again? LOL! I haven't been wrong yet :-) Just because 64% cluster solidly with sub-Saharan doesn't mean they're not mixed, it just means they're closer to sub-Saharans than any other "race". Anyway, rather than try to make sense of complex genetic studies we're not qualified to interpret, I quote directly from the man universally regarded as the most important population geneticist in the world today, Cavalli-Sforza, who says this about Ethiopians on pg 199 of The Great Human Diasporas:
The Ethiopians compromise a number of different ethnic groups and have many more languages. They are one of the forty-two genetic groups emerging from the fifteen hundred populations studied, and are classified as African, genetically speaking, even if a closer look reveals that they are special Africans with a high level of genes of caucasoid (white) origin. In fact we can call them an admixture of African and west Asian (Arab) genes. The two groups contribute respectively about 60 percent and 40 percent of their genes. But linguistically speaking, they are closer to the Arabs, because they generally speak languages from a family (Afro-Asiatic) covering northern Africa, Arabia, and the Middle East.
The mixed genetic makeup and use of Afro-Asiatic languages reflect the history of the Ethiopians, who for a long time had close contacts with the Arabs. In and around the earliest Christian times, there was an empire that took in both regions. Its capital was first at Saba (Sheba) in Arabia and later at Axum, in Africa. According to Ethiopian tradition, Makeda, the Queen of Sheba, visited King Solomon and had by him a son, Menelek, founder of the Ethiopian dynasty, which has only recently been overthrown. The Bible tells of these events.
Now I can't imagine why anyone would think Ethiopians are multiracial?! (sarcasm) Anyway we've reached a compromise by putting very dark skinned Ethiopians in the top third of the gallery (since they probably have the least admixture) and I'm not going to nitpick about Ethiopians overall being less than 75% (at least they're well above 50% in some studies which is more than I can say for some people who've tried to call themselves black) because black and multiracial are mostly social constructions Iseebias
I am Ethiopian (1/2), and nothing you said is correct it is your original research based upon a very limited understanding of Africans. YOu see that Kenyan man, he is Masai, Masai are closly related to the Oromo people, they come from the same place (KENYA). Oromo are the majority of Ethiopian people. Amhara are no lighter than other ethnic groups in Ethiopia. The waChaga of TZ are very light skinned, the San are the lightest Africans in Africa, they are almost yellow (lighter than Arabs). This is the danger of assumption based on racistly feed information. Keep your opinions as it is clear you are not intrested in learning. Afro-Asiatic is spoken by Hausa. The Ethiopians are mothers of the Arabs of Yemen (they werent even called Arabs back then), they occupied it in antiquity. Google Woodabe are they mixed as well, they look identical to Somali and Amhara poeple. Ethiopia has more Ethnic diversity than all of South Africa and Kenya combined. Do not discuss antiquity as if you go back far enough everybody is from Africa so nobody is mixed. But you have 2 sets of rules one to prove a crazy idea. AA are more mixed than Ethiopians. AA have European blood which is less than 120- 300 years ago. The biggest Joke is Condi the "pure Negro" is light skin in Ethiopia. The few "Arab" genes that these freaks claim exist are 1000's of years old. YOu are pure OR as you are limiting race to genetics and racist assumptions of "negro features". The people of Rwanda look just like habasha people, the fulani also. In West Africa the same thing among some Fon. This info isnt for you as it is clear you have no interest in learning from the people telling you, it is for the peoople that read your rant. If they are social constructions then your argument is an opinion and invalid in the real world where Black means Ethiopian, AA, SAn, Gambian, and Nubian. Everyone is from one race the human race, all genes go black to Africa. Most Ethiopians are dark, i am from Ethiopia i think i know what the people in my country look like. Most Ethiopians are not Hailes color, and the ones with the straightest hair are usually very dark, intresting fact. this debate needs to end and i think editors should delete it if it continues as it keeps coming up and doesnt develop this article! fly ethiopia and see for yourself, so racist to discuss a people you dont know or never seen methinks--
HalaTruth(????)
13:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Hal have you ever been to America? What are you FREAKING talking about when you say African Americans are more mixed than Ethiopians? Just cause the ones you see in the FREAKING movies are mixed doesn't mean the typical African American on the street is very mixed. It makes me so FREAKING MAD to see a guy who looks 90% Arab thinking he can lead the Rastafarian movement. That makes my blood FREAKING BOIL trying to play them for fools like that! I think you need to listen to the African Americans. Everything you know about being black you learned from the African-Americans so if the African-Americans aren't ready to accept you as black you got to respect that! I'm so mad I could spit! Christmasgirl
I am following this discussion and I am astonished. Christmasgirl and Iseebias are really out of line with the remarks. The arguements you bring up don't hold ground what so ever. And I also wanna ask Christmas girl, do you know who that man is in the picture that iseebias call's a man from Ethiopia? No, I think this discussion needs to be based on scientific facts and handled in a professional manner. There are several things you have to take into account when stating comments and defining who or what is to be called "black". First Black is a term used to identify people who where not white. In the medieval times an African was called Moorish by early Europeans and Zanj by Arabs. The term negro was invented by the Portugeuse after there first encounter with Sub-Saharan Africa'd Zanzibar (Vasco da Gama). Black became a synonom for Negro and a negro was stereotyped as having a flat nose, thick lips, dark skin and crispy hair. So everyone who fitted within these description's was therefor a negro. But as we now know, this racial typecasting is UNSCIENTIFIC and therefor MUST be dismissed. Just as the onedrop rule should be dismissed for 1 since it was used (and here I agree a little with Cgirl) to separate Africans from Europeans and to maintain the "pureness" of the white race 2 the fact that it helped to maintain the segregation law's. May I remind you that in the time these definitions where made and used Europe still thouhgt that the Earth was flat, draining blood with leaches was a way to cure typhoid and other ailments, and people with epelitic seasures where possesed by the devil! Scientific studies in America has found in Every AAn traces of European, Asian, Native An DNA-markers, And that a large percentage of Euro-Americans have significant traces of African-American DNA-Markers! These studies can be viewed on the internet if you'll take the time to google a bit!! Now for the Ethiopians and the Africans: you both Cgirl and IBs, are wrong and do not take a very SIGNIFICANT thought in considaration: Migration. Halaqal has good points there she is not only talking out of experience but she is stating the same thing scientist UNIVERSALLY conclude: 1 that through migration one group with specific markers merge with another group with specific markers creating a new group with a new DNA make up. Ethiopia alone contrives of minimum 42 different groups with each his own specific markers. BTW the Oromo-tribe is one of those 42 groups and to which Archeologist and Forensic Antropologists say the first Pharoa of Egypt (Narmer/Min) probably belongs. THIS IS NOT AFROCENTRISM BUT FACT!!! Migration is VERY VERY important when you want to outline groups, pinpoint there origins and define who they are or who they where. It has been proven not only by DNA but archeological findings that the migration started arround 15,000 BC when groups whent separate ways out of the region that is now known as the Saharan dessert. The migration whent south, northwest north and east. some-time later the Nubian A-group emerged on the banks of the Nile. Now we all now that Nubian's where darkskinned people aswell as the Early Egyptian's. As far as I am concerned the whole Anti-AFROCENTRISM debate and definitition comes from EUROCENTRICS who lack the ability to confirm the obvious. That we are all from ONE RACE and we all have a unique bleuprint which gives us our look. Again Halaqal is right. I see it within my own family. While my youngest sister looks more like a or even Ethiopian my Elder has the morphology of an Native American, My mother passed on many occassions for an Erythrean and My Sister looks more like an Asian we all have different skin tones predominantly red and yellow skin undertone. While when anyone will perseave me as black I am for a 42% Native through both parents 19%jewish and 5%Asian while the rest of me is African. The fact that I see myself as African Carribean is solely because I rather identify with my African Ancestry. The Cavalli-Sforza, IBs, is not undisputed. You should find a more reliable source since this particular gentleman is being fronted by 4 other scientist who oppose his views. And if one scientist come's up with some BS doesn't make him a world renowned scientits, ofcourse only to those who's agenda these views support! BTW this man comes from the 1920 so he's ancient as well as the research methods, the whole thesis based on insignificant and uncomplete researchdate would today not be admissable so: DISMISS!!!#@! ADD. Furthermore, His Imperial Majesty Negus Negesti Haille Selassie (YEAH, THE ANONIMOUS ETHIOPIAN MAN IN THE PICTURE), Is significant to every black man and woman everywhere, You can also trace his line further back to the Biblical times (the oldest monarchy in the world). During the struggle he invited black people from whereever they where to come back to live in Ethiopia. That's why he is so important to Rastafarians. But I guess you didn't know.
Mr or Miss (i guess u r a girl i dont know why)Leave the gallery alone, Deecees version is far more acceptable. Deccevoice and you will disrupt this article so just let it go. I back up this gallery as it is better than the alternative, but only in the name of stablity.-- HalaTruth(????) 14:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't intend to edit war this into the ground. I've stated my case -- over and over again. The gallery still isn't quite right. The last row still has two Papuans (with a third in the body of the article). That's overkill. (And I, frankly, don't remember my other objection at this point. lol) But let's keep talking, people, and keeping things civil. It's tedious, but bearable, as long as we keep a level of respect, openness and cooperation. Bless. I'm out for now. deeceevoice 14:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The gallery will never please everyone but at least we cannot complain about diversity. Blacktino, blaropean???? User:Muntuwandi 16:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, we've got Hugo Chavez. He's an Afro-Latino. I think we should replace the Papuan in the yellow shirt with a black European -- like maybe the athlete who was there before. (There are already two other photos -- as I keep pointing out -- of Papuan peoples in the article.) I'll hunt it up and do it. deeceevoice 17:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Did it, but promptly had to revert it. Switching out the old Papuan guy meant the athlete was under a subhead which implied he wasn't of recent African descent -- when he is. He is (or his people are) from Surinam. deeceevoice 17:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You have a very good point. I don't particularly like the photo -- not because, as someone said, he's "unphotogenic." I don't have a problem with the way the guy looks. He just looks like he's had a hard life. But it's simply not a very good photo. (It's out of focus.) And then there's the problem with three Papuans represented. But, then, I'd hate to sacrifice the photo of the children. They're cute. Unless someone has any better ideas, I'm can live with it. That brings to mind the fact that the top section doesn't have any blue-black black folks in it. Do we have a photo of someone from Sudan we could insert, maybe in place of the Dinka? deeceevoice 18:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
File:Michaeljacksonmugshot.png
mayb pics of mj from the 1970s when he was young and had an afro User:Muntuwandi 04:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I was only half serious about Michael Jackson. My larger point is that we should add someone who is black by most definitions yet white as a ghost, in sharp contrast to the South pacific guy who is black as can be in color but not defined as black by many. A native African albino would be a cool choice if we could find such a photo Iseebias
U SHOULD PUT IN MJ, because he doesnt fit all the definitions and is an intresting case study. he has transcended physical race. genetically black, physically "unknown".-- HalaTruth(????) 13:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, I disagree. Not because he's an embarrassment to himself and, for some black people (not me; I'm not accountable for him), an embarrassment to the "race." He's a freak -- pretty much sui generis. In an article on white people, should we include as an anomaly taxorexic white women who get butt implants, grotesquely collagen-swollen lips, who rat their hair, and sing in AAVE, trying to sound like (name their favorite black recording artist)? (Jeeze. Except for the butt implants and swollen lips, I think I just described Christina Aguilera! 8-O ) Or in an Asian gallery, Asians who get their eyefolds sliced, breast and butt implants -- or the Ganguro girls of Japan? MJ would be an utter waste of space better utilized with some other, truly instructive, photo. deeceevoice 17:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
How about a section "Black people who look like they belong in a Tim Burton movie"? Look, this has gotten beyond silly. Let it drop. deeceevoice 02:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that this article should have two types of racial definitions:those made by black people and those made by Europeans. In the name of counteracting systematic bias, the historical section with definitions by Europeans should be moved to the bottom and should be given less weight. The self-definitions made by black people should be given more weight. The white people article never lets non-whites define white people, so why should this article rely on Europeans to define the black people? The reader should have a clear heads up about what definitions are self-defined and which definitions come from white people who have less of a vested interest in the definition.---- Dark Tea 15:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[[:"I contend that black is a state of mind -- a state that Rice arbitrarily denied and currently defies. I send my condolences to Condoleezza for the awakening of methodical individualism and the death of her blackness. That blackness nurtured her and made her eligible for the affirmative action to which she is now, conveniently, oblivious. All those who subscribe to the same contra black thought should no longer accept anything on the basis of race. Accordingly, Rice should resign from the cabinet. As far as I'm concerned, she is as black as Rush Limbaugh and as acceptable for black America as Elvis." [23] Same was said about other people, for instance Clarence Thomas and Larry Elder.
And this: "For me, being Black is a state of mind: My Blackness cannot be judged by the color of my skin, the width of my nose or the kinkiness of my hair. For me, being Black is knowing and respecting more than 300 years of African-American history. It is realizing that I am a part of this history, because it has made me who I am today." [24] And Walter White for instance, looked like a white man, but selfidentified as black. [25] And Wallace Fard Muhammad, the founder of the Nation of Islam, was according to his birth certificate a white man, but he and his followers claimed he was black. SecurID 23:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand why there is a photo of sand with the caption "Some feel the term sub-Saharan is rooted in racism." First of all, this article is about people, and a photo of sand doesn't offer anything useful to the topic. Second, captions are supposed to describe what is actually in the photo, not provid editorial commentary about a topic that is only indirectly related to what appears in the photo. I suggest that the irrelevant photo of sand be deleted. Spylab 17:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles aren't for posting "really cool photos." This is supposed to be a serious encyclopedic article. There are plenty of photos on this page already; more than there are on most Wikipedia articles. It diverts attention away from the main topic of this article. The useless photo of sand should be deleted. Go ahead and delete repetitive photos if you want; like I said, there are still way more photos in this article than there are in other Wikipedia articles. Spylab 18:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree which is why I removed it. A pic of tropical Africa would be more appropriate and if we really want desert there is desert in South Africa, SqueakBox 18:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
consider these. User:Muntuwandi 18:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see any connection between black people and sand. Can someone please elaborate? SqueakBox 19:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Added new infor on scholars who criticize definitions of blackness. This info was taken out by Issebia who has made several erroneous statements as regards blacks and race. For example he claims that Ethiopians are 40% Arab, but the study he cites says no such thing. Indeed, that cited study is itelf seriously open to question on a number of points by the sources I reference. There are also a number of other erroneous statments made as well. This new information balances the statements in this article by Rushton, etc, and supports some of the data presented by Alum, DarkTea and Deeceevoice. Please do not remove this new info until other editors have had a chance to review and comment. Adrunkman 00:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the section he created is that it misses the whole point of the article. The article is not about proving one definition of blackness is less scientific than another. Blackness is just a social construct and people have used all kinds of nutty and arbitrary ways of defining it, including poking people's hair with pencils. So if people decide tommorow that only Ethiopians are black then that's what black will mean & no amount of science can change the fact that black identity has once again been reconstructed Iseebias
Comments
Okay put it in. It's makes my point anyway which is that many people have questioned whether Ethiopians are black. The fact that all your sources are bending over backwards to prove Ethiopians are black means that it's something that requires desperate proof. I thought it was understood. My only concern is that it doesn't fit the theme of the article which is simply a list of diverse perspectives on what it means to be black not a scientific debate about whether North/East Africans have Arab blood. The scholars I quoted like Diop & Rushton only make vague references to science in passing, I don't quote their entire thesis or try to justify their definitions. I simply document them as part of the diverse spectrum of views on this topic. And btw Cavalli-Sforza uses the term African when discussing genetics. It's you who is making the leap that implies Cavalli-Sforza is defining black people. Trust me if Cavalli-Sforza had offered a definition of black people I would have put in the article by now Iseebias
The frequent use of these words in what seem like encyclopediac-NPOV context, is all quite POV: the terms presuppose the existence of "pure" races. Jd2718 03:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
If in the photo Slash is expressing his opinion about people who attach importance to his "race," then I agree with him. ;-) P0M 02:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
this section should be rewritten as black diversity or the section should be deleted. if we have a this then we could have a section on Bantoid, khoisan, dinka, west african, east african, masai etc. In the west appearance is superficial and simply based on skin color. But in Africa it is possible to identify what general region someone is from based on appearance. Certain phenotypes such as nose, forehead, eyes and other more subtle features give cues to where someone is from. Basically Africans are generally dark skinned but have a spectrum of different appearances and cultures.
where ever there is a population overlap, mixing is expected. So not only do horn africans but also kenyans, tanzanians, particularly from Zanzibar all have arab influence. Indeed Swahili itself is a bantu language with a significant arabic vocabularly. Arabic influence extended all over the east coast of africa as far south as mozambique. My point once again is we are dwelling too much on the so called caucosoid features of horn africans. What next the epicanthic folds of khoisan. In fact we could make a case saying that whites are black because they both lack epicanthic folds and that asians are khoisans because they both have epicanthic fold. We could say that everyone with the same blood group are one race. Thus a japanese, a mandingo, a peruvian with blood group A are all the same race. Scandanavians and dinkas are one race because they are tall.
The concepts of race and ethnicity are always largely based on simple things such as skin color,language, culture and location. 100 years ago before DNA was discovered, if we were to ask are ethiopians black or Arab, what would the answer be. User:Muntuwandi 05:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I still believe this section should be rewritten or better still deleted. The obsession with the Ethiopians continues. I think we should avoid this controversial and divisive issue altogether. Even if the heading is changed it still has the same undertones of saying some are less black than others. The section is a distraction from the main article. My personal preference is always for simplified information as opposed to long winded theories and hypothesis that will just confuse readers.
what is the whole aim of this section. User:Muntuwandi 13:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
but the arabs in question look just like the bantus. why the obsession with horn africans.
Finally the idea of assigning admixture percentages to whole groups is innappropriate for this article. As we have done with other population such as in brazil. Instead of assigning a percentage we have just mentioned that the people are a multiracial spectrum. User:Muntuwandi 14:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
While i am not too aware of what goes on in the academic world regarding horn africans. we are all familiar with how the common man perceives who is black. This should be given preference over hypothesis that only a few in the academic world will have access to. A person in a rural village in africa has little concern about admixture percentages and will simply see things in black, white and brown. For the whole article I would much prefer most of the opinions of psychologists and psychiatrists to be removed. We do not need some college professors deciding who is black, rather the collective perceptions of society at large should be taken into accout. In short we need to "dumb down" some of the phylosophical jargon.
If one met a horn african, and said to them you are 40% arabic, I guess they might be insensed by the allegation. Throughout this article I think that we had been succesful at avoiding the term "admixture" which is fast becoming a much misused word. I see its execessive use as quite politically incorrect and not very good etiquette. we do not ask say for example each african american what his or her admixture proportions are. but we do know that mixing is a reality. There must be a much less controversial explaining whatever concept that the section is attempting to explain. User:Muntuwandi 16:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
If as some say race is a social construct, then it is the common man who constructs it and not the elite professor. Scientists have began to discard the concept of race, but it is central in the life of the common man(His neighborhood, family, friends etc). I am not against science but against the scientific opinions of a few. I just find it odd because a four year old can recognize black from white. So why do not we need a rushton or satel to advise us on who is black. But anything scientific that can help us articulate what a person goes through in that fraction of second that is required to recognize the race of an individual is useful. Surveys, polls, statistics are better sources because the give group dynamics as opposed to what one prof says. The article can very well articulate "black people" without rushton, satel, sforza User:Muntuwandi 18:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's just show everyone's opinion, the professors, the common man's, the 4 year olds, show all the disagreements as you go from the U.S. to Latin America to Jamaica. Hell in Australia they think Australian aboriginals are black! Let's show everyone's opinion. In the U.K. they even thought people from India were black, but they called them "blackeys" not black. That's what make this article interesting. Hell, I'm even interested in the Afrocentric opinions as crazy as I think they are Gottoupload
undue weight this page is about Black people not exploring opinions of quaks et al with strange lopsided POV. Which have more to do with another topic than this one. Focus and due weight means that this article must be balance and discuss the issues in balance. not be original research. As explained above by the POV agent isseebias a promise was made not to introduce this nonesense into this article, subsequently i return and see the POV again. Dispite this agreement this OR was added by citing and giving undue weight to a psuedo topic with an article.-- HalaTruth(????) 22:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
this debate has been exhausted and editors agree not to add in this content as it is undue weight, this article is about black people, not strange theories according to a group of white people about one group of Africans. ISEEBIAS, if what you told me is true and you comply then i encorage you to revert the inclusion of this addition not feed the problem. other editor see the talk page and stick to what editor have agreed upon in order to develop this section. Undue weight is only one violation, add that argument to race not black people.-- HalaTruth(????) 09:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
At least we have come to some sort of consensus regarding horn africans. One thing
Anyone with a brain has political views one way or another. She's a Yale lecturer and medical expert on human variation published by the NY Times. The most reliable possible source, and she's the only person who defines black as "recent African descent"-a key point that needs to be made. Very strong keep.
Jensen's an emminent psychologist who has been the dominant figure in the race debate since the 1960s. And he's not even giving a biological definition but a social one.
Nothing against them, but who are these folks. I may recognize one or two but i do not know the rest. I think that is why this article is jumbled and does not flow. So many different opinions.
to start with this guy
This sounds like a page right out of Genesis chapter 1
Secondly
Do we really need a professor to tell us that. This is common sense. I think many of the things these so called experts are saying can be mentioned without bringing their personality to the fore. User:Muntuwandi 03:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Hybrid populations with multiple lines of descent are to be characterized in just those terms: as of multiple descent. Thus, American Negroids are individuals most of whose ancestors from 15 to 5000 generations ago were sub- Saharan African. Specifying 'most' more precisely in a way that captures ordinary usage may not be possible. '> 50%' seems too low a threshold; my sense is that ordinary attributions of race begin to stabilize at 75%. An individual, half of whose ancestors are East Asian and half Caucasian, is to be categorized as just that, of half northeast Asian and half Caucasian ancestry. Nothing in continental cladistics precludes mixed ancestry, any more than the concept of a breed of dog excludes mixtures. [12]
But we don't need to get that precise or technical. Rushton & Satel's quote when combined make roughly the same point. In fact I added time estimates Rushtom made elsewhere to the article to make his definition more meaningful Iseebias
its time to start thinking about archiving the talk page.
The ultimate question is do we really need the quotations of these people in conceptualizing black people. I personally think most of their observations are commons sense or unnecessary. They may be known in their respective academic circles but they are not household names. If someone was to read this article for the first time, how would he have confidence in them because he does not know them. Once again I am not against scientists, but say if there was a quote from Mandela, or Dr. Martin Luther King, one can easily relate to them as opposed to some relative unknowns. User:Muntuwandi 15:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
On the street I see asian, people, white people, black people. I do not need lineaus to tell me who they are. It is self evident.
User:Muntuwandi
19:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
That is not entirely true. these guys were born in the 1700, 100 years after which blacks were already in americas. are you insisting that there were not know as blacks in 1619.
The new organization is entirely based on race. The massive remake of the article goes well beyond bold. Jd2718 15:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I am in objection to the use of terms in the lead that would subliminally portray blacks a perpetually oppressed people. Hence all terms regarding oppression, slavery, discrimination should not be present in the lead.
This is a reason I had the population information. If you see there are some countries in africa that have an almost 100% black population. How is racial discrimination a problem in those areas because there are hardly any other people. Therefore we cannot define blacks based on any history of discrimination. User:Muntuwandi 15:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Jd2718 the lead you have is very much US centric. The issue of oppression should be left out of the lead. It can be mentioned elsewhere but not in the lead. being black is just that. Certain places being black is just about skin color and cannot be connected with discrimination and oppression. We should mention that definitions differ from place to place, yes, and that some see it as a social construct. Not all places have the civil rights history the US has.
Your lead also states that Europeans defined blackness, the lead is borderline racist.
User:Muntuwandi
16:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Then is it blacks who constructed whiteness. That is controversial and should be left out of the lead. What should be in the lead should be the least controversial information. I believe nobody made black or white, the two both came into existence when two different cultures collided. One of light skinned people and the other of dark skinned. In the US maybe there was a social construct whereby someone with very light skin may be called black but in a village in africa it was all about skin color.
The lead is going to have problems, I suggest we keep it simple as it was before. User:Muntuwandi 17:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
everywhere European explorers went from polynesia to the new world, the natives described them as white men. Therefore the social constructions were self evident. Nobody constructed white people, same as did black people. When white explorers came to east africa, the local tribes people called them Muzungu which means one who goes round and round in swahili. This because the explorers were looking for something (gold , the source of the nile etc) and often seemed to be wandering aimlessly. Differences in appearances, culture, language, and behaviour are self evident. So to say that Europeans constructed blackness is absurd when black and white are self evident to a four year old. User:Muntuwandi 17:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Once again we need to keep the lead free from bias and opinion, controversies should be in other places. A four year old in an isolated village in africa knows a white from black and does not know lineaus, is unaffected by european academics. Yes whites were the first to make an in depth study of the races but the people themselves were already self aware.
finally the social construct is not entirely accepted by everyone. There are still some biological issues to race. Apart from the obvious dark skin, other issues include ; medicine sickle cell disease is most common in black people, so is the risk of prostate cancer is higher with black men. In this case social construct is baseless. From a lay mans perspective, a doctor would not waste his time testing for sickle cell disease on a white person. User:Muntuwandi 19:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
the race article says
not everyone agrees about the social construct thing, therefore putting controversial theories in the lead is a POV. In the body yes, but not in the lead.
the race article says
According to some recent publications and discussions in US academia, since his ancestry is from East Africa and not West Africa, he is not black.-- Filll 20:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Enough of the campaigning! What the hell has Obama done?
Back to the matter at hand. Obama's father was Luo, the largest non-Bantu ethnic group in Kenya. They are a Nilotic people and most certainly black. [27] Not even those people who try to perpetrate the hoax that some Northeast Africans and some East Africans, by virtue of geography, somehow aren't black should be able to say with a straight face that Obama isn't black. The man self-identifies as black. He looks black. Hell, he doesn't even look like a mulatto. If I saw him on the street, I wouldn't assume he was of mixed parentage. The brutha is clearly a brutha. And those who try to say otherwise obviously don't have a clue what they're talking about. deeceevoice 20:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
HalaTruth(????) 20:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. "Caucasoid" refers to phenotype -- not geographical origin. And you can't argue with objective fact. It is a known fact that many Senegalese have no/limited prognathism. That makes them, according to those who use such a term to describe some Ethiopians, "Caucasoid" in that respect. There are Nubians -- full blood -- with straightish hair and narrow nasal indices. But these same white people don't call them "Caucasoid," either. Why? Because there's no way in hell they can maintain that the Senegalese populations and the Nubian populations are mixed with anyone. They can't get away with the lie. Besides, they're not interested in trying to claim Senegal or Nubia. They are, however, intent upon appropriating dynastic Egypt. Hence the lie of "Caucasoid," black North Africans. The fact is they are all African phenotypes; they are all Africoid peoples. deeceevoice 22:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Obama was smart enough to speak out against the war while other democrats supported it. He's introduced excellent pro-black legislation to have police interviews videotaped. He has a brilliant career as a civil rights attorney. He's absolutely brilliant. First African American president of the Harvard Law Review. Most gifted and charismatic speaker in politics since Kennedy. And while I consider him multiracial not black, you don't need to be black to be African-American. Being Afro-multiracial or even even Afro-octoroon is enough to be African-American because it's a far more inclusive term. An African-American would have to be very foolish to not vote for Obama Iseebias
white people never really worry about the mike tyson type, it is the type with brains they worry about, the ones that cut ilitary bujets and will be more pro-Islam than pro-Israel. They only c him as multiracial because it is the string that links them to him, nothing to do with if he is or isnt. watch this space. The one thing he will do is challenge the system and force AMerica to be more honest about racism vs merit.yes if he cant get elected no AA will-- HalaTruth(????) 21:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
well deeceevoice i hope u r smart 2 c beyond his 1/2 whiteness and dont end up voting for a 100% white person. Sometimes we miss the point what about voting for a fully black person like rev. jesse peterson? y do we treat each other like this?-- HalaTruth(????) 21:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
If I do vote for a 100% white person (if there is such a thing), it'll be because of what they bring to the table -- not the color of their skin. Same with Obama. Otherwise, we end up with turncoat self-haters like Clarence Thomas, Alan Keyes and the like. Pleeze. deeceevoice 21:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
100% of an imaginary leader or 25% of hope? waiting on a messiah that will never arrive. i am shocked at this debate. dont think turncoat is Obama. a man cant b guilty for being mixed or can he? we dont like sharpton cuz his hair is too slick, we dont like Mr FKhan cuz he 2 hardcore (and Islamic and brown skin). we end up with...-- HalaTruth(????) 22:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Hell, I'm still waiting to see who else is running. There must be at least half a dozen more folks waiting to throw their hats into the ring. A politician eventually ends up catering to his base. If a bunch of smitten, mealy mouthed (politically middle-of-the-road) "can't we just all get along," "we love our mulattos" white folks get solidly behind Obama, give him $ and hold him up as their candidate, what? You're gonna tell me Obama isn't going to start parsing his words and altering his platform to get elected? Well, I don't know that. It's been my experience you can't predict what a candidate is going to do once the political pressure is on. Obama laughed and poo-pooed the idea of him running for president a while back, saying (in effect) he hadn't done anything as a senator yet. Well, he still hasn't. But is he running? Yep. It's possible that whole rock-star/adoration mess got to him. And if it did, then what's next. I'm still waitin'. deeceevoice 22:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Brock O'Bama User:Muntuwandi 05:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Do we have to handle the Tamil/Dravidian matter again and again. Some of u even doubt about if EastAfricans are Black. So how come u think Tamils are Black if they fit only the dark skin criteria to be "Black" (like allmost every Indian do)and also fall us Caucasoid in term of race, while EastAfrican share a Black ancestry and are atleast "Partly Black".
Just one point, there is no fuckin race called Tamils. Tamil is one of the ethnicities of Indians, like Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali, Telugu, Assamese,.... And those both girls doesnt even look a little bit "Black", even if they smile and their nose looks "broader".
I've read something about selfdefinition.. If we talk about self definition most Tamils, not all, will agree thet they are not "Black", what ever that means. Putting people together by skin colour is as much ridiculous as putting people together with hair-, or eyecolour. Skin colour is an adaptation to the climate. Just like hair- or eyecolour. Not one single Nation describes Tamils/Indians as Black in their racial profiling. It doesnt matter if some of you think that way.
Asian2duracell
00:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Am nobody ever see slash, thats how he mask his black identity, i think he is a good example we all know him. etc etc. Ahhhhhh Vin Disel put him, he keep cropping his hair but his voice gives him up everytime-- HalaTruth(????) 00:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
-- HalaTruth(????) 00:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that Black people have to discuss and argue their identy and origin's with white people? Can a white person answer this question: How white are YOU? And what if I was going to make a definition on who is going to be called white from now on and who's going to be called, off-white all the way up to black. To take it a step further: what if I add some characterics and race trades on your mental state of mind (The less melanin one has the lower on the lather you'll end up). Than, to take it up a knodge, how would you like it if I would impose MY DEFINITION of you to you and declared it to be the UNIVERSAL TRUTH? Than I will go to WIKI-White-people and put in some bogus lil'entry! How does that sound? It is not up to you to define me or any other person for that matter and push me out of history!! You cannot do that anymore that ship has sailed.
And tell me what do you have to back up these thesis of yours? Dravidians probably African but an essentially African cultural is in your imagination probably EuroArabic. Proposterous!! Than the case of defining by morphology or other physical trades whither someone is Caucasian or not, by which method? HITLERS? Are you going that way? The definition used by so-called scholars living in dark-aged Europe is a crock, gibberish from old white-only-in-it-for-the-loot-man and their melanin-envy, trying to come across as litterates, inventing terms to seperate people (white) from so-called subhumans (by Euro definition: darkskinned, broadlipped, kinkyhaired people). And you are so NOT SMART to accept their way of thinking with analysing where this is coming from. Next thing you're gonna tell me is that the earth is flat and women belong in the kitchen.. . (You know that the earth is not flat right and women today have voting-rights).
The only way to PROPERLY identify whither people belonging to the same group share the same historical origin is by studying the history of those people and groups maticulously. Cultural trades, religious believe, language, burialsites, skills, arts, legends, fabels and folklore all the way down to their genetic make up. Next is to go digg in the ground to find traces. I doubt seriously whither the whites and that obnoxious lil'Chinagirl have done that. This discussion seriously needs to get away from the European focus point and back to where it belongs, Africans.
Objectivity is urgently needed in these pages. Have none of you (again whites) had a proper education? Haven't you learned that arguements need to be backed up by scientific evidence, reckonising sources and USING them (f.e. Halaqal as an Ethiopian had to clearly very concise and accurate arguements). It seems to me that you are deliberately ignoring the objections, using this board for your own shady views. You need to stop it, take a reality check, argue with the evidence instead of basing the evidence to support your arguement, handle the evidence as objectively as you can (if you master that capacity), and get of your imaginary throne to listen to people with a little more knowledge about the region than yourself. Got it? good.
Now, In the light of new knowledge, where in the past the untruth was being established as fact by Eurob(i)ased views of the world during the renaissance and the industrial age, and that being that the term "Negroe" or "Black" used as a definition for the "homegrown sub-saharan" African, must be DEEMED unsubstantiated, unscientifical and biologically incorrect. This definition of "Blacks" in referrence to the peoples of sub-saharan Africa or their descendents should be banned from here on out.
There are sources available which are less questionable and more accurate such as the ancient Greecs traveljournals, they did never put much emphasis on race. The Greeks described breefly the appearance of the peoples they encountered Herodotus for example. Than the Arabics like El Mas'udi a highly praised Archeological scholar (although I wouldn't trust the translation made by the English and French in the 19th century, because their view was already tainted by economics and the slavetrade). Al Mas'udi is the first and only one, up till the 20th century as far as I am concerned, who observed in a scientifical nonpartial way and recorded amongst others, early CE purely African cultured Civilizations (which formarly was said to haven been build by the Arabs) I have nothing against the Arabs but those cities where there and thriving long befor Al Mas'udi arrived and saw (as he himself attests). You could also do an extensive research an try to study some of the different peoples living in Africa(Fulani, Dogon, Zagawe, Oromo, Ibo, Ife Yoruba, Massai, Ashanti/Akan,Zanj or waq waq or mende, Touareg, Amazight to name a few) and register their beliefsystem comparing them to one another and than you can start to call yourself a little educated on Africa. Untill then I think it best for you to reckonise your lack of knowledge and look to the more venerated and lamented scholars and writers. Reed Basil Davidsons Lost cities of Africa, that would be a good start!
We got to get some people in here who have the knowledge to tell other people about who every distinguishable group within Africa is. I think Eurocentrism shouldn't be allowed in this page. It is almost blasphomy.
It's an interesting issue that keeps coming up. How is it that White people think they have the right to Africans and their history? Good for a debate from a psychological viewpoint on Eurocentrism. And if you don't stop the stupendous remarks on Anthe Diop I am going to go to WIKI-White-people and start my Afrocentric entry. And than I'll put you on trial. Got it? Good. -- Glynn71 11:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Karenga said something about we try to clean up an ugly toilet and b proud of it.(nigger etc) I agree with black as a non-white racial grouping, that film by shahadah got me editing on wiki so i cant flaw the attempt at something new. these opinions r refreshing at worst, revolutionary at best. never understood the difference between negro and black still confused-- HalaTruth(????) 13:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no need for so many separate sections in this article, especially since some of the sections are very short. Some of the separations seem arbitrary. Many of these short sections should be merged together with similar topics under a common heading. Spylab 12:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Cut it up too many topics it was better b4-- HalaTruth(????) 14:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Let us avoid POV in the lead and controversies in the lead. Social construct is a plausible hypothesis but it has not come full circle yet. We can mention it in the body as one of the leading theories but let us not force readers to believe that it is a social construct as some people do not believe it is a social construct. I have included dictionary referenced from both british and american english. These are the foremost authorities on the language so can serve as a starting point for the definition.
to some black is nothing more than skin color and has nothing to do with opression, or civil rights or politics. I go back to the four year old. He may not even know what racism or discrimination is but he knows black and white. User:Muntuwandi 20:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
the dict quote doesnt belong in the lead because it outshadows other defs. almost like giving undue weight to it as an authority. Leave the diction like all other sources in their correct place. It cannot be in the lead.-- HalaTruth(????) 21:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
From purely a linguistic perspective the dictionary has authority. I acknowledge that this article is looking into more than linguistics. The point is the mainstream view of black people is reflected in how it is used in everyday language. there are other definitions as well including the social construct hypothesis. User:Muntuwandi 22:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
That is the reason I included both the oxford and the American dictionary. Oxford uses historical literature as part of the basis for its definitions so is less biased. Every wikipedian has a personal preference for their definition of black people. In order to avoid a tug of war of definitions based on personal experiences we should take into accout what the dictionary says. Some believe black has nothing to do with africa and yet all the dictionaries clearly say so.
User:Muntuwandi
23:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
the differences between the term black, african, negro are purely academic and for everyday use are practically the same. Negro is just an exotic latinization of the word black. Yes black and african are the same however it is the exception that proves the rule are the case of the melanesians and australoids. According to the single origin hypothesis
. The australoids and melanesians branched off earlier in the human migration somewhere in Asia, possibly in India, and headed south towards australia around 70000 years ago. The other groups headed North and East to populate Europe and Asia. The sea levels were low at the time so Island hopping was easier. As the Ice caps melted rising sea levels submerged most of the land in between asia and australia and thus the melanesians and australoids were cut off and remained essentially isolated for the next 65000 years. This is the reason why australoids are genetically closer to asians as the branched off from the main asian group first, somewhere possibly in India or Arabia. However as the australoids and melanesians remained isolated for 65000 years, it is believed they closely resemble the original africans who first migrated out of africa 80000 years ago. User:Muntuwandi 00:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
the melanesians and negritos and australoids went to populate australia and surounding Islands. at the time asia was connected to australia coz the oceans were low. but when the oceans rose australia was cut off from asia. These melanesians remained cut off from their asian cousins for 65000 years and did not receive any new genes to modify their appearance. This unlike europeans and asians who had plenty of genetic exchange to modify there appearance. so the melanesians look very similar to how they were when they left africa 80000 years ago but are still more closely related to asians and europeans because they branched off from the same group.
In summary the first people to leave africa were black. This is why melanesians are black skinned User:Muntuwandi 02:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
. If you look at the map you can see that the khoisan live below the tropic of capricorn, this is why they have light skin. but this was not always the case. the khoisan used to occupy almost all of central and southern africa. And actually the article says nilotics such as the Maasai in North and eastern Africa are descendents of the Khoisan. This means the khoisan were probably dark skinned when they lived in central africa. The Khoisan were only pushed south by the Bantu migration which is believed to have started in Nigeria. The bantus had a different culture, the used agriculture, and were more warlike than the hunter gatherer bushmen. There was some assimilation and elements of bushmen culture and language are evident all over central and southern africa.
Even though the melanesians lived in a climate similar to africa what is startling is the similarity of other phenotypical features. for instance of all the peoples of the world only melanesians, negritos and africans have wolly hair. Many south indians can be as dark as africans but they still have the caucasoid type hair. User:Muntuwandi 04:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
User:Muntuwandi 05:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
it was the Nokthat did the Iron thing, the thing is the Afrocentrics are reacting to the horrors of racism that the Eurocentrics created. They wouldnt b a need for Afrocentrics if the stink of racism wasnt so strong. According to Euro, either Africa got it from Europe, copied it from the North or are some half Arab group thus crediting the 1/2 arab genes for any scripts, sculptures and civilization. Well yes Nubia built this and that, but they were not SUb-Saharan they have causcoid (spell) skulls.-- HalaTruth(????) 13:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
but europeans relied so heavily on other cultures. where we are today is the sum total of the interdependence of many cultures. Eventually all technology still finds its way back to africa. for four thousand years the tallest structure in the world was in the pyramid of giza in africa. User:Muntuwandi 13:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
100 things about black people they will delete i am sure. but i think politics are strange if everything is Africa or as the above 21/4 person NOthing is African. It must mean without saying it Africans are primitive. what other conclusion do these academics expect us to have.And this is Oxford.-- HalaTruth(????) 14:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The first explorers in East Africa wrote that they were shocked by the nudity, paganism, cannibalism, and poverty of the natives. Some claimed Blacks had the nature "of wild animals... most of them go naked... the child does not know his father, and they eat people." Another claimed they had a natural sense of rhythm so that if a Black "were to fall from heaven to earth he would beat time as he goes down." A few even wrote books and made paintings of Africans with over-sized sex organs. Sound familiar? All just a reflection of racism? Maybe so, but these examples are not from 19th Century European colonialists or KKK hate literature. They come from the Muslim Arabs who first entered Black Africa over 1,200 years ago (in the 700s), as detailed in Bernard Lewis's 1990 book, Race and Slavery in the Middle East. Several hundred years later, European explorers had the same impressions. They wrote that Africans seemed to have a very low intelligence and few words to express complex thoughts. They praised some tribes for making fine pottery, forging iron, carving wooden art, and making musical instruments. But more often, they were shocked by the near nakedness of the people, their poor sanitary habits, simple houses, and small villages. They found no wheels for making pots, grinding corn, or for transport, no farm animals, no writing, no money, and no numbering systems. The Whites who explored China were just as racist as those who explored Africa, but their descriptions were different from what they and the Arabs had written about Africans. In 1275 Marco Polo arrived in China from his native Italy to open trade with the Mongol Empire. He found that the Chinese had well built roads, bridges, cities connected by canals, census takers, markets, standardized weights and measures, and not only coins, but paper money as well. Even a postal system was in existence. All of these made him marvel when he compared the Chinese to what he saw in Europe and the Middle East. Even though he was an Italian, proud of his people and well aware of the greatness of Ancient Rome, Marco Polo wrote: "Surely there is no more intelligent race on earth than the Chinese." Historical research bears out Marco Polo's impressions. As early as 360 B.C., the Chinese used the cross bow and changed the face of warfare. Around 200-100 B.C., the Chinese used written exams to choose people for the civil service, two thousand years before Britain. The Chinese used printing about 800 A.D., some 600 years before Europe saw Gutenberg's first Bible. Paper money was used in China in 1300, but not in Europe until the 19th and 20th centuries. By 1050 Chinese chemists had made gunpowder, hand grenades, fire arrows, and rockets of oil and poison gas. By 1100, factories in China with 40,000 workers were making rockets. Flame throwers, guns, and cannons were used in China by the 13th century, about 100 years before Europe. The Chinese used the magnetic compass as early as the 1st century. It is not found in European records until 1190. In 1422, seventy years before Columbus's three small ships crossed the Atlantic, the Chinese reached the east coast of Africa. They came in a great fleet of 65 ocean going ships filled with 27,000 soldiers and their horses, and a year's supply of grain, meat, and wine. With their gunpowder weapons, navigation, accurate maps and magnetic compasses, the Chinese could easily have gone around the tip of Africa and "discovered" Europe![ [33]] Iseebias
If rushton is so racist why do we even quote him in the article. User:Muntuwandi 14:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC) u need to see blacks fail the civilization test then they say we are paranoid.-- HalaTruth(????) 15:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes africans were semi nude, It was the garden of eden. the word Paganism should now be discredited because all it means is "any religion other than my own". Africans have always been a very spiritual and mystical people. This is the reason why African American churches have always been more lively than white churches. The success of african american gospel music can thus be traced to ancient african spiritual tradions and songs.
The asian people are the most sucessful population wise. 60 % of the worlds population is in Asia. My personal view is not to use technology as the only means of judging society. If africans survived for 200, 000 years without technology why should we judge them.
I don't think Rushton's racist. He's describing the history of racism in a chapter about the history of race & racism. I doubt he's racist because he's not claiming his race is the most intelligent. In fact he argues caucasoids are a mediocre race. Orientals superior in intellect & social order, blacks superior in personality, sexuality, athleticism, rhythm etc, and Whites in the middle on every important dimension. Many credible people have defended Rushton:
Harvard biologist E.O. Wilson (one of the two co-founders of the r/K selection theory Rushton's racial model references) came to Rushton's defense:“I think Phil is an honest and capable researcher. The basic reasoning by Rushton is solid evolutionary reasoning; that is, it is logically sound. If he had seen some apparent geographic variation for a non-human species__a species of sparrow or sparrow hawk for, example__no one would have batted an eye.” But, Wilson added, even though society should be able to “handle” most areas of sociobiological debate, “when it comes to [human] racial differences, especially in the inflamed situation in this country, special safeguards and conventions need to be developed.” [14]
And even science journalist and Ruston critic Peter Knudson admitted:
Despite the occasional media stereotype of Rushton as some sort of incompetent scientific adventurist, he has throughout most of his career as a psychologist been seen as a highly competent researcher. He has published more than 100 papers, most of them, particularly those dealing with altruism, in highly respectable journals. [15]
Also even if Rushton is racist, I think it's important that for the article to be complete we know how black people are defined from a Eurocentric perspective, especially since Eurocentric ideas are what affect blacks in every day life. It's important for black readers to get a full understanding of how blackness is defined, not just Afrocentric sources that dominate the article Iseebias
yes i remember being nude in Eden 4 real. It is Eurocentric, to discuss intellegence from a place that fits them. Like ants judging us by there standards and saying "we conclude they are stupid" they cant chew grass like us. Why dont they judge civilization on not pissing in the bath tub you r in. we dont have no more whales, we dont have no more ozone, we runing out of trees, all the elephants are gone, the fish are dead. the birds stop flying, the polar caps are melting, man marry men, racism is everywhere, they bomb peoples countries, children slap their moms--IS THIS CIVILIZATION!!!-- HalaTruth(????) 15:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
In a lexicographic analysis, philosophy professor Lansana Keita noted that the word "black", "negro", and "African race" are all defined in terms of one another and can be regarded as logically equivalent [17] Although the earliest known references of the English word "black" with reference to African descent were in the year 1400 [18], the use of the "color" black as a metaphor for Africans may be as old as recorded history. J. Phillipe Rushton writes "in 1200 B.C. the Egyptians of the Nineteenth Dynasty painted polychromatic human figures on the walls of their royal tombs depicting peoples of different skin color and hair form: red (Egyptians), yellow (Asiatic and Semitic), black (sub-Saharan African), and white (western and Northern European, also shown with blue eyes and blond beards)" [19].
This research is projecting, Egyptian never said this, the drawing is being understood by a biased whiteman. Ethiopians make the same distinction between them and the Nihlots. furthermore Egyptians used skin colors different. Many photo of A Egyptians show all colors being used. I would also question who re-painted the image. Ohh U didnt know Europeans repainted stuff? chopped off noses? Further more the article is about Black people this is about someone modern comprehension of a past empire that had no concept of black people or sub-Africa. And it has undue weight being so high in the article.See how they also painted King Tut in jet black, and that Dog God he was black as well. Dont think Black paint meant Black skin.-- HalaTruth(????) 22:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
the map is wrong, ask yourself the question, is the desert smaller or bigger now than in history? Start there. The San are very light skin, if u c them in real life it is shocking. I dont know why deserts produce this because deserts r hot. But u dont only get light people in the deserts see Australia. i think something else is at work. sea level is another factor. Eurocentrism had 2 change to avoid looking silly. Remeber when they were white white white now they say "we know they werent white they were Arab" because too much info is out there, so now they say they were" brown" not "black" and they use that img to say "c they werent black people" but a dif race (but they know thy looked like ET poeple_so now u c the link Y ET has to be less black, is a historical clean up.-- HalaTruth(????) 03:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The article in its current form seems quite unstructured and is difficult to navigate through. There is some useful information in the article but one does not know how to find it. The contents or index of a well written article should flow and tell a story by itself. some titles need to also be simplified or made more relevant. for instance "Black vs Multiracial" could be a boxing match. The current contents look like this.
Contents
* 1 African ancestry perspective o 1.1 Sub-Saharan Africa debate o 1.2 Black vs. multiracial + 1.2.1 The Americas # 1.2.1.1 One drop rule # 1.2.1.2 Reverse one drop rule + 1.2.2 South Africa o 1.3 Black as a controversial ethnic term o 1.4 Afrocentric perspective o 1.5 Emphasis on racial classifications o 1.6 Biblical perspective * 2 Dark skin and appearance perspective * 3 Population information and distribution * 4 Gallery * 5 Footnotes * 6 See also
this is what I propose
Contents
* 1 Proposed structure o 1.1 lead o 1.2 race o 1.3 Human skin color o 1.4 Regional definitions o 1.5 africa= + 1.5.1 South Africa o 1.6 US + 1.6.1 one drop rule o 1.7 Latin america + 1.7.1 brazil o 1.8 Oceania o 1.9 Other o 1.10 racism + 1.10.1 the bible
dravidans, french, irish etc
User:Muntuwandi 05:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The structure you propose is not bad, but I don't think it's enough of an improvement to justify all the effort, especially when the article has finally stabalized. Also it doesn't provide a space for major debates like the Sahara desert debate, nor does it provide a space for the general comments in the dark skin color perspective that can't be pigeon-holed into 1 region or another. And the whole concept of regional variation is misleading because in some case we are talking about how different regions define blackness, and in other cases we're talking about whether people FROM different regions can be defined as black. It also draws attention away from the primary debate: Is blackness defined by African ancestry or is blackness defined by dark skin? Iseebias
I think the article is stable not because it is in good condition but I think many editors are tired of edit wars. Yes there is still more information that can be added to the proposed layout. As this article has many editors anyone can place a section in the middle at the top etc. While the information may be cited and relevant without a decent layout the article becomes a structureless construction of data. User:Muntuwandi 14:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the article is broke. There is a disconnect between the titles and the information in their sections
Finally the word "perspective" is quite ubiquitous.
I think social constructionism is more relevant in complex multicultural countries like the US, Brazil and South Africa than it is in more homogeneous places like nigeria. That is why I propose bit more breakdown in to regions. My main issues are on the organization of the article not so much with the content. With poor organization we may end up mentioning the same point several times in different sections thus cluttering the article. Issues regarding definitions should be found in on place. Something unique to the US in one place. Scientific issues in one place etc User:Muntuwandi 18:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
File:Sadat5.jpg(sorry pls make smaller) Sadat is a Black man by some definitions. We need to add Black and Arab into this article and discuss Sudan and the so-called Arabs. Lets take sometime as oppose to moving stuff around actually develop more debate and content on the racial issue of African Arabs. Sadat and Tibbu Tipp being 2 good starting points about Blacks who are not Black due to reverse rule in Arabia. iSSEBias seems 2 like wiki research so y not develop this?-- HalaTruth(????) 19:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Please delete Bobby Jindal's image. He is a Punjabi and of Aryan Descent. He is more Caucasiann than an Arab mixed with Negro Blood!
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The term "blacks" has often been applied to indigenous Australians. This owes rather more to racial stereotyping than ethnology, as it categorises indigenous Australians with the other black peoples of Asia and Africa, despite the relationships only being ones of very distant shared ancestry. In the 1970s, many Aboriginal activists, such as Gary Foley proudly embraced the term "black", and writer Kevin Gilbert's groundbreaking book from the time was entitled Living Black. In recent years young indigenous Australians have increasingly adopted aspects of black American and Afro-Caribbean culture, creating what has been described as a form of "black transnationalism."[2] (i dont know if this is in the article but it should be)-- HalaTruth(????) 11:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
This article clearly asserts that there is no agreed upon notion of who is Black and who is not. In that context, a population estimate table does not make sense. Perhaps the numbers for individual, identifiable groups would be ok. Just perhaps. Jd2718 03:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Some numbers are necessary to add meaning and context to the article. Without them we could be talking about 2 people or 6 billion people. Being "black" is subjective and there is no agreed upon definition, but that should not stop us from making estimates. The US government takes statistics on black people so it is not an impossible task [1]. Basically by breaking down the table further it is possible to arrive at different numbers depending on one'e desired interpretation. User:Muntuwandi 20:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
The article asserts that the population of black people is half a billion. This is not possible as the the population of sub-saharan africa is $767 million. Though ethnically heterogenous is almost entirely black. The exceptions include about 4 million whites in south africa and about 1.5 million peoples of Indian descent. Sub-saharan africa should be the least controversial when it comes to defining who is black. There will definitely be some controversy in the americas as not everyone of african descent there will define themselves as primarily black. The information in the new chart does not include the distribution ie where black people are to be found. Without it we could assume that there are a half billion black people living in russia or japan. As mentioned earlier a table is useful because if a reader decides that he or she has a different interpretation of what black is then they can simply remove or add a row from the table. For example there are about $80 million people of african descent in brazil. Of that about 11 million define themselves as primarily black. One can decide for themselves how to interpret this information but is useful and relevant if displayed. User:Muntuwandi 15:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not have a problem with modifying the content. But including certain information in a visually friendly manner is important.Distribution is necessary because it provides information on where most likely you will find black people. If i am walking down a street in siberia will I meet a black person?. The whole issue of racism is very much linked to numbers- minority User:Muntuwandi 15:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I think one chart is enough. some issues
I have again and again said that i wish that this page would not be used by these people who want to push this nonsense into our communities. I am Ethiopian. And it is sickening of seeing peole talking nonsense. Chances are they are white people who realize Ethiopian was the 1st christian state, the empire that conquered Arabia, the Last and longest continuous civilization, the country that saved Islam, the country that the original Jews come from. The country with an ancient Script Ge'ez and they want to find a way, Just like Kemet, take it away from Black people. Again and again we see this. And if anywhere in this article this bunch of eurcentric lies is placed i will have to go down taking it out!!!!!!!!! p.s. Most Ethiopians are darker than Most African South Africans, Xhosa and Zulu poeple. And African hair comes in many different textures. If you live as high as we do your hair will be curly. in addition Ethiopia is a diverse group of people who dont all look the same, Do knowledge and speaking from pure lies. The Masai have the same features, The Kanuri, the Wodabee, the Somali, the Fulani the Tutsi, all have these features, so why would thick lips be more Negroid? It is just the white mans take on what a "real" African is..-- HalaTruth(????) 16:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
please do not add any multiracial madness to habasha people, this has been an ongoing war on this page, dont start it again. see the previous talk comments. How Selassie say that and still be the king of Rasta people, does it make sense. Selassie was one of the key Pan-Africanist who said Africa unite because we are teh same people... come on?-- HalaTruth(????) 22:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes the reference to the Habesha is POV and should not be included in the article. User:Muntuwandi 23:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
After a lengthy analysis and public comment period, the Federal Office of Management and Budget (OMB) revised the standards for how the Federal government would collect and present data on race and ethnicity. The new guidelines reflect "the increasing diversity of our Nation's population, stemming from growth in interracial marriages and immigration." [2]" Is that wrong? Thank you. Jeeny 03:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
due to significant mixing the americas have the most controversial and flexible definitions for blackness. However we can start with the figures for the African diaspora which are far less controversial.
This is approximately 150 million. Not everyone in the african diaspora identifies themselves as primarily black. In the US the one drop rule meaning one is black if they have one drop of african blood. However the reverse is true in much of latin america where one drop of white blood could make you white.
This includes the populations of Papua New Guinea New Caledonia and other surrounding islands. Approx 6 million.
the institute of health has the indigenous population of Australians as 500, 000.
Afro-European England - 1 million split evenly between afro-caribbeans and africans France - 2 million of sub-saharan african descent Netherlands- 300, 000 of surinamese descent.
To reduce controversy on defining who is black I have added figures on the African diaspora that are less controversial. This can serve as the upper limit of who is "black". For example if there are 40 million people of african descent in the US, then there can be no more than 40 million Black people of African descent in the US User:Muntuwandi 20:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
total figure extends above 900 million. This however has not included black populations in North africa the middle east and South India so the figure could be higher. ( eg Egypt and Saudi Arabia) User:Muntuwandi 04:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
"The above chart is an unpublished synthesis of published sources, and is inconsistent with published estimates. For example it asserts that indigenous sub-Saharan Africans and their Diasporas descendents around the globe number 917 million or roughly 14% of the now 6.555 billion people on Earth. This figure is inconsistent with journalist Jon Entine’s, claim that persons of sub-Saharan African ancestry comprise 12 percent of humanity [3](roughly 787 million people). The total black population of 923 million is especially inconsistent with reports that the people of Nigeria are one fifth of the global black population [4]. Nigeria currently has 140 million people implying the global black population should be only 700 million (a discrepancy of 233 million people). The Nigeria-based estimate may be lower because it only counts peoples of sub-Saharan descent as black (excluding the 6.5 million Melanesians and Australian aboriginals) and also because its excludes populations sometimes viewed as multiracial such as Ethiopians [5] and many Afro-Latinos. "
Dear Iseebias,
I think it is a little odd to make criticisms right in the article. It shows conflict and disagreement. If one disagrees, which is expected,then it is more appropriate to provide alternative or better sources.
My motives are really simple- to indicate:
This is useful information and tells us alot about world history and current events.It is not my intention to define who is black but there is a strong correlation between "black" and "african". In an attempt to avoid disputes I looked for the most reliable sources of information, eg The United Nations.
By viewing your edits it seems as though you are uncomfortable with higher figures for people who are black or of African descent. I think we should let the numbers speak for themselves and not try to drive them up or down. Yes Nigeria is the most populous african nation but we should not be trying to manipulate the figures so that nigeria can have one fifth of the global black population.
It is for these reasons I believe the published estimates section should be removed. User:Muntuwandi 01:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the sources that you have cited is that are from much earlier dates. John Entine's book was published in 1999 and the other nigerian economic report is from 2001. Africa is the fastest growing continent in the world by population adding about 100 million people every five years [6], [7]. The population of Europe is actually decreasing and the population growth rate in Asia is also decreasing. Therefore comparing figures from 1999 with figures from 2006 ( at least 7 years) will definitely yield different results. User:Muntuwandi 05:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This is starting to look like original research (unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material). -- Ezeu 06:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Because of the fast growth rate, in the future it is therefore possible that due to migration, many countries and regions that did not have a visible black presence will begin to do so. It is for this reason that talk of black population is very relevant.
Yes not everyone in the Afro-latin american diaspora identifies themselves as black. In fact most are multiracial mix of black, amerindian and white. They are still relevant to the discussion because they have a recent ancestor who was black from sub-saharan africa. User:Muntuwandi 16:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
My main issue about the reports is that they are not directly about population. I would like to read john entines book about black athletes but the book is about the NBA and NFL. The second report is about Economic and Financial crimes in Nigeria. If i were attending an international conference on population i would not use these reports as references and I don't think you would either. I would use more credible sources. Yes no statistics are full proof and beyond reproach. but I would still trust those who dedicate their full resources to compiling these statistics than to one who is just mentioning it in passing and has other goals. User:Muntuwandi 22:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It is not my intention to impose a US centric definition on who is black. By using the african diaspora we can determine the upper limit of who can be defined as black based on sub-saharan ancestry. Because latin america is largely multiracial, in most cases the black population is going to be less than the figures but it will not be more. At this point we should not completely exclude anyone of african descent from the conversation. For example Malcolm X's maternal grandfather was a white man so technically he is multiracial. He is to many the symbol of "blackness". Should we exclude him from the discussion. The same can be said about Bob Marley and even Louis Farrakhan User:Muntuwandi 22:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
my main
I have serious issues with the credibility of your [8] , [9] In my opinion it should be common sense that these are not reliable sources but i'll break it down
John Entine
Nigeria fight against economic crimes
see Wikipedia:Reliable sources
Accordingly the sources do not meet the standard of being a reliable source. If you dispute the information in the article I would suggest using current and reliable sources to back it up and not these. However we should not dispute the information for the sake of it. There must be good reason. I am fully aware that this is a very heated and sensitive article with passions running high. There is always a great amount of suspicion on anything new that is introduced.It is for this reason that I have attempted to include information that has the least controversy. I will not define anyone as black but leave that to the reader. I think it is time to move on there are alot more interesting things about the black diaspora that can be included. User:Muntuwandi 04:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is it " a kenyan man" in the first picture on the artice on black people and then only stars in the hite people article. this is so racist. i think this page need a reality check, but i also realy like the way wikipedia devide Black and White people. its sick. I think we need to discuss putting this page into Deletion or a total rewrtie/matrix17
Well their are many photogeniwue white people but anyway the photots only shows renowed people. /matrix17
I commented in the population estimate section, above, without having carefully reviewed the changes introduced in the last month, and especially the last week. I must withdraw any supportive comments I made. The article has systematically been altered to introduce five races as fact. This strong POV must be addressed. Now I see, in this context, the population estimate section has served to reinforce this POV, and especially perniciously by bandying about "admixtures" and allocating parts of one person to different races. I am deleting this section, which serves as a proxy for introducing this material. There is much more clean up necessary. Jd2718 06:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the definitions of "Negro" and "Negroid". The terms Negro/Negroid are not synonymous with the term Black people. Include definitions that refer to Black people, and not definitions that refer to sub-sets of Black people. Alun 07:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Do you know what Black people are called in Cuba? Negro thats what they are called. Think about it. If you go to Cuba and say "where is that black girl" they say "?Donde nina Negroese?" or something like that. Why do people believe black and Negro are different. Negro is Spanish for black. i never understood why AA move from Negro to black, its the samething. That why i just use African-American.-- HalaTruth(????) 21:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Like many, I thought that Sub-Saharans could not contain different races in them, as on one show in the UK quoted Sub-Saharans were not very big travelers but looking at many articles say Arabs had coastal towns along the east coast of Africa in the early 10th century. Thus the native population could of not been as big as it is today so the Arabs must of caught a majority of the population and then untermixed with them. Also the majority of Africans taken by the Europeans in the 16th Century to the New World were from West Africa and had Arabic names. I know that is not proof but it is very likely they had middle eastern ancestry. Caribbean1 17:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Man so-called Sub-Sahara Africa has been home to native Arabs for yonks, pre-Islam all at the time of Axsum. The entire Swahili culture isnt just "black" people. So Sub-Sahara def aint just "blacks". More on that millions of native "blacks" live in North Africa. No they didnt move there to get into Europe, they have always been there, they are "black" and have no connection to Sub-Africa--NONE! they dont speak Bantu and they were not brought there as slaves. Why cant we get our heads around this fact? Arabs and white people came to North Africa with the greeks,Romans, Spanish Arab invasion in 9th c. and pushed the Africans down or mixed with them.-- HalaTruth(????) 21:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I recommend we make this article more similar in structure to the white people article. In particular, we should include a physical traits section as that seems to be a significant part of race (as is seen in the white people article). A 'culture' section would also be a good addition. 212.139.248.227 03:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Isn't that insulting that in the population tabulation... every term has "afro" in front of it. We just can't be humans can we? -- 68.60.55.162 01:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Some people are making out that the one drop rule is something unique to African blood, but if someone has a Jewish mother they are "Jewish", Robert De Niro is 1/4 Italian is considered an Italian American. The list is long of examples. -- HalaTruth(????) 10:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Not 100% true, tiger isnt "black", but Berry is, Bob is. Blackness is dominant so it isnt just some unfair policy. Many "mixed" poeple look like everyday non-mixed "black" people. This is the issue. I am from Africa and even with in one family you get people who are lighter than some mixed people, and in the same family you get dark people. So most of these "mixed" people look like Africans in Africa. So race is about how you look. Bob Marley looks Black, Berry looks Black. When she goes to Ethiopia or Rwanda or Mali she looks like them (and no these Africans are not mixed). Only when they tell you they are mixed do you know it. Just look at Lenny Kravitz (with Kinky hair), he is mixed, look at Prince, he isnt mixed, Vanessa Willliam (with Green eyes) isnt mixed. And again having Jewish blood makes you Jewish, you can worship Jesus all you like you are still Jewish. Indian and white = Indian as well (UK) -- HalaTruth(????) 22:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
"the right to decide" can i as an African decide to be not African? why not let everyone decide then. So next race box should be free to select what race you want to be. If you have 1/8 Indian in you, tick whatever on any given day you feel like ticking. Indian + White = INdian (UK not america)-- HalaTruth(????) 00:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Lenny Kravitz mother isnt Jewish, and he is Jewish. Same with Slash-- HalaTruth(????) 00:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I take it you dont like the one drop rule, i guess it makes no sense but i am talking about people who have more than 1 drop like 50%-- HalaTruth(????) 01:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I hear statistics saying that the proportion of whites to nonwhites is decreasing in America and Europe, explaining it as differences in reproductive rates based on cultural whatnot, as well as immigration.. but considering the prevalence of the one-drop rule (SINBAD is black? How exactly is Sinbad BLACK?) it could just be the fact that any 'mixed race' breeding produces nonwhites no matter what, for dozens of generations.
Can we avoid bringing our personal issues and feelings into this article. Though this is the talk page, it is not a social networking forum. some of the stuff i am reading is really quite embarrassing. we should stick to the facts ie, what can be defined, what can be proved and what can be measured. User:Muntuwandi 03:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Deevoice and Xmas girl. bullet point the issues and discuss, i dont know why Xmasgirl is complaining about Deceevoice edits, you cant revert the entire thing, there must be some content which can be keep, and Xmas girl 3RR is a problem and you will be blocked, use the talk page to discuss. Let others understand the issues so a resolution can be gained, because all that will happen is the same why you can revert they can revert back, pointless.-- HalaTruth(????) 12:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Although America’s one drop rule originated as a racist attempt to keep the white race pure of any black contamination, today some of it’s biggest defenders are African-Americans such as professor John Michael Spencer. According to American Renaissance :
Prof. Spencer is particularly touchy about the idea that some of the icons of black history might have been "multiracial" rather than black. Nothing seems to infuriate him more than the thought of the white parents saying to their hybrid children, "Colin Powell, Lena Horne, Alex Haley, and Malcolm X were multiracial, just like you." He thinks this is nothing less than the theft of black history, adding, "The United States has a history of this kind of grand larceny." "Is Black History Month to be replaced by Multiracial History Month?" he asks. For Afro-centrists this may be a real worry because without the one drop rule, not even the most brazen of them can claim that Nefertiti, Jesus, Rameses, and Beethoven were "black." [7]
As this is being added and removed in the edit war, so start by discussing this problem.-- HalaTruth(????) 13:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I suggest, in the interest of thoroughness, we start at the beginning, edit by edit. XmasGirl's reverts begin with the first paragrah. What's the problem there? deeceevoice 13:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
But *sigh*, in the interest of cooperation, I'll start with your question, HalaTruth. My edit note explains: "There must be another way to make this point. The author being quoted is attributing emotions to this fellow rather than making a purely rational, dispassionate argument.Find another, more NPOV source."
The author's quote uses value-laden language to characterize the other person's views. The guy starts off calling the man he's criticizing "touchy." It means (going to the online dictionary) "marked by readiness to take offense on slight provocation." Already, he's engaging in a personal attack, ascribing his ideological opponent's views to some sort of character flaw or emotional imbalance, rather than simply a difference of opinion/perspective. The language is clearly polemical, argumentative and disrespectful, rather than objective; its obvious intent is to ridicule and denigrate/belittle.
Because of the nature of the www, all sorts of written material is readily available for use in articles. Some of it is noteworthy, analytical and useful. Some of it is deliberately argumentative, inflammatory, derisive -- pick an ugly adjective. As the society has become less and less civil, so has the level of public/political discourse. This is an encyclopedia, not a political journal. The sources we choose should meet a high standard.
I haven't taken issue with the point the editor rather obviously is trying to interject/make; I've taken issue with the source being used to do so. The writer clearly has an axe to grind -- as does the editor, Christmasgirl, as she has demonstrated with her non-stop edit warring and her declaration on my talk page that "Black supremacists. Afrocentrics piss [her] off...." My suggestion in the edit note was to find a NPOV source.
And the edit was made was before I checked into the nature of American Renaissance and this guy. The language immediately struck me as inappropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedia. It is clearly an ad hominem attack.
Similarly, Christmasgirl's edit notes -- when she's bothered to include them -- have been little more than ad hominem attacks directed at me, with no credible attempt whatsoever to justify her ongoing black reversion of material.
I did a very brief check on AR, the source of this quote and the author. The publication itself is a rag. The author is widely regarded as a racist and admits to being a white separatist. Yes, he's been published, but so has David Duke. There are plenty of people with degrees frontin' like authorities on this, that or the other thing. And in today's world where everyone has his/her 15 minutes of fame, and at a time when the mass media seem particularly driven by ratings based on battling, intemperate (usually) red-faced talking heads screaming invectives at one another, one can find just about anything on anything in print or online and claim it as a source. It does not mean, however, that we should, as editors, freely and irresponsibly cut and paste such garbage into an article because it is a convenient way of injecting our own biases into an article under the guise of scholarship. Such thinly veiled POV should fairly shout at any remotely sentient/intelligent, objective reader.
And we should call one another on such bullsh*t.
Wikipedia should strive for a high standard when it comes to sources. We should not give the impression that these mental cretins and beyond-the-fringe media whores are reputable, reliable, trustworthy sources -- merely because they have a vanity press, a podium (and there are thousands upon thousands of them -- millions, even, in cyberspace) from which to spew their intemperate venom/rhetoric. Let's not dignify their b*tchy, POV blatherings with inclusion in an encyclopedia, for God's sake. Find someone without an axe to grind -- at least someone with broad credibility. And not some racist lunatic frontin' like decency. U get my drift? deeceevoice 14:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Now, let's take it from the top. Paragraph one. What's the beef? deeceevoice 14:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
If you "could take or leave" my changes, then why did change them -- wholesale? Your argument is a cop-out, and it's evident. When an editor makes carefully considered edits, then you are obliged to state a reason for changing those edits. What you did was an unreasoned, knee-jerk, blanket revert of several changes that were accompanied by rational edit summaries, and you did so with nothing but dismissive, ad hominem language in your edit summaries -- when you bothered to include one at all.
Just as with your puerile vandalism of the White people article, this demonstrates an unthinking contempt for the wiki process and for the contributions of other editors. News flash: this is a collaborative process. If you are unwilling to work with editors in a mature, civil way to produce a quality product, then you'd best turn your attentions to one of the thousands of blogs in cyberspace where disruptive, intemperate, adolescent conduct and mindless demagoguery are accepted modes of conduct.
I stated my objections clearly to the quotation from that racist hack clearly. If you want to introduce information/a commentary regarding the opinion of a majority of African-Americans in this nation with regard to who is and who is not black -- because the majority of blacks in the U.S. think similarly to the "touchy" man referred to in the quote -- then there shouldn't be a problem finding something acceptable. The author's value-laden, smirking language is not. It's grist for a political rag, a blog, even -- but not for an encyclopedia. deeceevoice 19:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, don't misunderstand me. There is a difference between being controversial and being a hack. Afrocentrist scholarship of the level of that of Cheickh Ante Diop is highly respected worldwide. When UNESCO undertook a project to present a comprehensive/exhaustive history of the African continent, Diop featured prominently in the epic, finished product. His scholarship had to be presented and defended to a rigorous review by a panel of eminent historians before inclusion in the multi-volume work. He proved to the satisfaction of those seated that dynastic Egypt was a black civilization, and this is what has been recorded in the finished product. There was no countervailing argument presented in the book. Why? because Diop's scholarship and documentation were unassailable. He not only successfully justified his findings, he completely blew away his detractors. He devastated them -- not with demagoguery, or artifice, or ad hominem insults; point by point, he presented the facts. Once the evidence was gathered and all the arguments were in, there was no credible opposition left standing. So, those of you who, knee-jerk fashion, discount outright the work of any and every historian, scholar, academician because you or someone else has slapped an "Afrocentric" label on it, may be closing your eyes to what was in the time of Herodotus, and is now accepted elsewhere in high academic circles the truth. Diop's status is already established. Is he controversial in some circles? Yes. But he was most certainly no hack. deeceevoice 20:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm crunching a deadline and haven't read the changes in detail. I'll come back when I have more time. But I did notice this in the summary from Christmasgirl in the edit history: "...but without the so-called personal attack against spencer that pissed off Deeceevoice" Once again, unproductive, inaccurate language. I'm not "pissed off." Further the nature of my objections were very clear. Quite the contrary. It is you who stated you were "pissed off" on my talk page. Do not attribute to me motivations which do not exist. I suppose, however, we are making progress. You're finally leaving edit summaries. Tone down the nastiness, girl, and try to behave yourself. deeceevoice 20:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The population estimates are a problem. They use 2 of arguably (and in this article argued) many definitions of Black people. They have cobbled together numbers from many sources, constituting new synthesis and Original Research. This is not all that surprising; the article has been edited over the last few weeks to present Black primarily as a race - but there are not and will not be good sources to document world population by race. Jd2718 20:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
all the information is cited from reputable sources like the UN and the Population reference bureau. There is no original research or manufacturing of information. User:Muntuwandi 20:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I know you have expressed reservations about the population estimate. Also several times you have expressed your wish to have this entire article deleted. You are not giving sufficient reason as to why you think this is original research when all the information is cited from reputable sources. If you have any problems, let us use the talk page and avoid unnecessary edit wars. Please detail exactly what you disapprove of.For the moment the informatin should remain simply because it is cited. It is not mismatched because it is all concurrent. User:Muntuwandi 20:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
so why not black people. User:Muntuwandi 06:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
It is for this reason that statistics are important. Bush is not the only one who does not know there are blacks in brazil.
User:Muntuwandi
00:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is counting black people seeming to be an impossible task.
I would like to know what is wrong with mentioning these government published statistics. User:Muntuwandi 01:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Muntuwandi 02:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I have not been involved in this dispute, but I'm jumping in to share my thoughts....
I often ask my 7th grade students to go to the library and find out the "population of the world" They always come in with wildly different numbers because we do not really know the population of the world in any precise sense. For all our hubris and zeal for counting we simply haven't gotten around to assigning a number to every human being on the planet. (My students are quite shocked to discover this, they tend to expect the numbers to be out there and exact right down to the last person.)
Counting all of the black people in the world is an even more troubling task due to the fluid and inconsistent definitions of black.
That all said, I do think it would be appropriate and consistent with wikipedia policies to cite a source that claims to have estimated the total black population of the world, if any scholars have claimed to do this. I looked in Africana and found no numbers on this topic. But if someone can find a source I think it would be sensible to mention it.
We can't synthesize this information ourselves, doing so would constitute original research. IMNSHO.
Also, we should check to see of the other "ethnic group" articles have population numbers. I think it is important to keep these articles all consistent. (I see you have done that...) futurebird 02:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes other ethnic groups have some statistics and distribution. These include
"The boundary between original research and compilation may be blurred. For example, classification may be as non-original as simply putting things in alphabetical order."
"There are now nearly 800 million Africans on the continent and perhaps up to another 100 million persons of African descent living in other parts of world" [10]
the whole issue about the population is not aimed at advancing a viewpoint or to get an exact number, but just to add context. Are we talking of 50 people or 5 billion people and where are they(alaska, japan, greenland?). Without this context one might end up like president bush, not knowing that there are any blacks in brazil. User:Muntuwandi 05:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
The weight of this article has been tilted heavily towards the five race or four race point of view over the last few weeks. We need to reread for Reliable Sources and proper weight. Jd2718 20:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Everybody is mixed to some degree, Spanish Italians etc, If we must discuss multi-racial limit it near mixed race, mom, dad, Else we will have to add that the Spanish arent white. The Ethiopian thing will start many problems again, just look at the edit history. Arabs are a Semitic people look up what racial semitic means. So how far back do we want to go, if we go back 70,000 years everybody is African.-- HalaTruth(????) 22:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
But races are social constructions. Humans used arbitrary subjective biological logic to define blacks, whites, Asians ect. So if we socially constructed these categories then we can socially construct an intermediate between these categories. I think you guys have missed the whole point of the massive multiracial movement. These people are not saying races are scientific, they're saying if you insist on assigning people to races based on antiquated racist labels like black and white, they are going to assert a middle groind. They're refusing to be pigeon-holed, and I say more power to them Iseebias
The day that color based racism ends I would be right up there in recommending this article for deletion. But until then not discussing the issues is being in racial denial. User:Muntuwandi 04:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
These remain one of the most controversial issues in western society. Malcolm X talked about it extensively in his autobiography almost half a century ago. Today it is no less controversial. I just hope that we do not recycle old arguments that have been debated over and over again. we should move forward and bring new insights. What is tiger woods or Halle berry or ethiopians? are now getting stale. Maybe according to Chappelle, let us have a racial draft. User:Muntuwandi 02:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe you're bringing Ethiopians into this. For the most part, they're not mixed with anything. They're as black as the Kenyan man pictured in the article. deeceevoice 06:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to let such abysmal ignorance go unchallenged. And don't tell me what I may or may not comment upon. deeceevoice 07:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
there is only one view on the topic of ET, then there is a few academics with their bin to remove the noblity of Ethiopian civilization from African claim. But 2 white people saying something outbalances 2 billion Africans opinion-- HalaTruth(????) 20:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
its strange that someone get blocked from discussing on this page because wikipedia doesnt excepts racist behaviour. then why is this whole article about "black people" quite racist in my opinion. to define people in to races like black and white is just wrong. and to have a "kenyan man" on one of the pictures in the article and then have only celebrities in the "white people" section is just very very strange i think and wrong. i think we should discuss the deletion of this article bacuase i cant see any reason of defining people into races.. i dont see my friend as my "black friend" i see her as a friend i think this article is wrong wrong wrong... /matrix17
I don't like the current version of the gallery. It's a more a showcase of our favorite black heroes that makes the article seem amateurish & adds little encyclopedic info. In addition, it displays only a limited spectrum of the people who could be considered black, & implies that some definitions are more objective than others by saying those people are considered black by a significant number of people (significant number of people is a weasle word). I'd much prefer a more diverse gallery that showcases the absurdity racial classification by drawing attention to all the inconsistencies & how blackness is a constantly evolving social construction that keeps redefining itself. The following is a very rough idea of the direction I'd like to take the gallery in & I'd like to get your opinions & suggestions (most of the claims are cited in the article): Iseebias
I agree with Iseebias. There is no generally accepted conception of blackness because it's a socio-political construct and not a biological one, and the gallery should reflect that. The Irish should be re-added to the gallery as well. Furthermore, the gallery isn't ment to be someones personal shrine and shouldn't be misused as a place of POV worship ("King Of Kings globally seen as the king of Black men").
SecurID
15:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
At the heart of the problem are some who strongly feel that this article should be deleted, and I can understand their ideals. I share some of them too. But the reality is race and color play an important part of everyday life especially for people of color. Take for example,
France does not officially recognize race and ethnicity. The ideal is that all citizens are equally French. No statistics are kept on race, religion and ethnic origin. To do so would be to encourage what the French call communautarisme, the idea that identity-based subcultures can exist within a society, a concept most French see as profoundly threatening to Republican values based on individual citizenship.
After the 2005 race riots in france everyone saw that these ideals are actually a myth and as the National Catholic reporter put it "Race is a reality for everyone in France except the French state." User:Muntuwandi 04:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I would just like to say everyone is colored, There is no blacks or whites, because they are not colors they are shades. So if black people are colored that means white people must be colored. Kind of like native americans, there not indians to all idiots who say there indian still. They are just simply americans and not from INDIA! White is the incorrect term for a "Caucasian"(note the asian part) person just so you know, white people aren't actually white. Secondly any kind of racial pride is just plain stupid because it all goes back to the Only race,the Inferior race, THE HUMAN RACE!
TERMINATE ALL HUMANS WUHAHAHAHAHa
-just a joke. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
24.208.79.61 (
talk)
19:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
Do u know there is only one biological human race? All children of one African woman. What would she say if she could see the world today? That her own children would come home and enslave their brothers and sisters. So as irrelvant as race is, it is relevant because we are defined by it, we are privalleged or not privalleged by it. the more we use it the more we have to use it.-- HalaTruth(????) 19:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
(Disclaimer: I don't think anything POV slipped into this comment, and if something sounds POV, I certainly didn't intend for it to. Also, I would have implemented most of these changes, but I don't believe that the current restriction will allow me to edit the article myself.)
1. To preserve its relevance to the article, shouldn't the picture of "a Kenyan man" be changed to "a black man" or "a black Kenyan"?
(Note: I don't really care about that, it just popped into my head.)
2. There are multiple flaws in this quote: "The difference in skin color between black and whites is however a minor genetic difference accounting for just one letter in 3.1billion letters of DNA. code[4] [sic]".
I have fought, and failed, to make the main theme of this article be closely coupled to current mainstream scientific reasoning, instead of pseudoscientific nonsense. I have no objection to including pseudoscience, but it should be clearly identified as such. This is an interesting link that shows what claims of separate human races can lead some extremists to do: click here for a chart. But I know it is not politically correct among most of the editors of this page to admit that maybe skin color is just that; skin color, and basically a very minor difference among humans.-- Filll 17:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
"Until the colour of the skin is of no more significance than the colour of the eyes there will never be peace," Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia to the United Nations, SqueakBox 17:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
african brazilians are a small minority.most brazilians are mixed race. If racist americans call everyone who has a drop of african blood in their veins an african, mostly for the purpose of oppressing them into a racial underclass, this is an international encyclopedia and such concepts should not be refered for racist reasons originating in one country. the vast majority of brazilians are both proud of their african and european heritages and refer to themselves as "pardos", meaning coloured and mixed race. less than 10% of brazilians refer to themselves as "black".Since race is an unscientific concept it is the self-identification that counts. if you doubt this see references in Brazil and Demographics of Brazil. 84.90.18.136 19:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
why is there a white person in the gallery? What would happen if someone put a pic of black person on the white people article. That should not be acceptable. If one sees the documentary African American Lives, in it henry louis gates talks about how back in the day whites would not allow blacks to congregate in church by themselves. There always had to be one white preacher or pastor in the black churches. This reminds me of the same thing. User:Muntuwandi 02:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I reverted to the other version of the gallery. The inclusion of the guy who plays Tony Soprano is ridiculous. Diop was referring to southern Italians/Sicilians, and the operative word (though I haven't seen the exact quote; it's not provided) is "may". Clearly, Diop was not writing about all Italians. deeceevoice 04:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually there is a black person's picture in the white people article. Iseebias what is the obsession with white people in the black people article. there is an article for white people. User:Muntuwandi 05:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
There are several editors who contribute to this article. Therefore if only 2 editors agree on something it is still very far from consensus. I have noticed that "consensus" is used to justify edits when in actual fact many other editors are in disagreement. User:Muntuwandi 04:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- I seem to be a little confused but maybe someone can help. Is this guy white or asian. User:Muntuwandi 04:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not certain I get the objection to the language of the lead. The alternatives just don't make sense syntactically. Seriously, what's the problem? deeceevoice 04:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Today started with the lead of the article in this condition:
Deeceevoice edited with an edit summary of Deleted. Wholly unnecessary -- and this isn't a bona fide footnote. There is no reference cited, nor does there need to be one. this to:
I put the deleted information back, but edited as well with this summary del "lineage" and associated ideas of race from opening:
Later today Deeceevoice used an edit summary of Tweaked the head to change to
First, the edit summary was misleading. All of us, especially in a contentious article, should make sure that we are using accurate edit summaries.
I have put the lead back to where it started today. If there is a need to change it, please discuss here.
The elements that are important: there is not a fixed definition of who is Black. People are not (the color) black. Jd2718 05:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe the ambiguity of being black is very much overstated and exaggerated. there may be a few exceptions here and there but by large people who are black are very easily recognizable. Some have made it seem as though it is very complicated. Michael jordan is black everywhere on this planet. No one will ever say that he is white or asian. No one will ever say that George bush is black- anywhere on this planet. User:Muntuwandi 05:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I definitely believe the lead should have more detail on physical appearance. User:Muntuwandi 05:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
It's worth reading today's valuable input on Brazil. Only 1 in 20 Brazilians are Black, but over half would be Black if they moved to the US. It's not skin color - but it can be skin color. It's not national origin - but it can be national origin. You may be certain that the Ethiopians in DC are Black; I have a book in my hand that says they are Caucasian (the racial part of the book is garbage), but just because some people in one race-obsessed country think they can categorize everyone in the world, that doesn't make the categories constant, accurate, or even meaningful.
Articles about meaningful ethnic groups, Nigerians, East Africans, African Americans - physical characteristics make sense for them. Population estimates make sense for them. We can agree broadly on who we are talking about. That's not the case here. Jd2718 05:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC) Jd2718 05:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it is a minority of people who have unorthodox views that being black is so flexible. A Nigerian an East African or an African American appearance-wise can easily be interchangeable. but you cannot mistake a nigerian from a white swede. Impossible.
User:Muntuwandi
05:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
If you agree Nigerians are black everywhere then that should serve as the starting point for the definition. People who would be considered black everywhere plus regional variations User:Muntuwandi 14:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Deeceevoice wrote:
And that's just wrong. Black people are characterized in different ways in different places. In this country, it's social. In Brazil, it's social. But the social groups don't match.
Some people claim that the classification, and that's all it is, is racial, or biological, or genetic. I think they are wrong.
But the lead should reflect that what Black is, is contentious. And it should not say what the social, biological, racial, or whatever factors are, because they very from source to source, and place to place (and from time period to time period). That's what the body of the article needs to do. Jd2718 05:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Basic reading comprehension and the issue of misleading edit summaries
What about "blacks" who pass as "white"? SecurID 12:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
what is with focussing on five legged dogs or the man with 12 fingers. Yes these cases exist and are very interesting. but they do not reflect the average dog or average person. The same goes for the white guy who is black.
This article needs to be locked to prevent racism posts that are frequent on this page. Shot menot 18:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Err sub-Saharan Africa isnt desert it is tropics. The pic, while I like the comment, is not appropriate at all for the article. Can we get a tropical picture? SqueakBox 04:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
What makes this article look poor is when POV run through the article. Kolfi is black by all definitions original research?. This race in this place is identical to Sub-Sahara Africa {NPOV}}. Either keep it simple or leave it alone. The text is enought to explain the complex topic of black identify. It is a waste of time to add it in any attempt to gain clarity. Photo's can be added to relevant sections. the grand list introduces controversy without offering the reader anything more than a shop list. Also a gallery with a sub text cannot do justice to the topic.-- HalaTruth(????) 09:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Halaqah. We don't need a gallery, especially not after the latest image Deeceevoice was thoughtful enough to add to the African race section. I'm sure all the editors are editing in good faith, but it's just too easy for complex issues to get oversimplified in the gallery. For example Ethiopians being synonymous with blacks. Ethiopian at the time was a broad term for all Africans so putting that caption with citizens of the country now called ethiopian gives a misleading impression. The gallery as a whole is not needed. Much better to concentrate on the text Iseebias
I think 4 editors have agreed on this, i think Deeceevoice is the last editor who likes the gallery.-- HalaTruth(????) 15:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The gallery is a good idea but the issue of using it to further an opinion is a problem. for about a month there were no changes, all of sudden it became a big deal. I really don't mind who would be in it as long as there are regular black men and women from around the world. The easiest are those who have little controversy about being black so that the focus is more about who they are, and not whether they are black or not. User:Muntuwandi 20:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The only type of gallery that might be useful would be one that is devoid of POV pushing captions, & one where we could all agree who is considered black, black/multiracial, black/Pacific islander. Highly controversial people like Ethiopians should be avoided. A model like this might work: Iseebias
The following individuals are black by all definitions cited in this article:
The following individuals are considered black by some, multiracial by others:
The following individuals are considered black by some, Pacific Islander by others:
I tried to balance it to make half men and half women within each category, and also for mix of American and non-American. I chose not people I like the best, but high quality photos. I tried to show as much diversity within each section as possible without causing controversy. I tried to include diverse mixes in the Afro-multiracial section Iseebias
Side point Haile Berry actually said no one believed she was mixed, this is funny because i was shocked as well when i heard she was, so this is further proof that Blackness isnt about genes and the one-drop rule (more like 50%) is weak because Blackness is dominant. Many times you dont know someone is mixed, now how strong is that? Prince for example is lighter than berry but not mixed.-- HalaTruth(????) 23:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
What? Mixed people are considered black, too. Why remove Obama? He clearly considers himself black -- and most African-Americans do, as well.
Further, what's with the emphasis on only Africans? Where are the West Indians, African-Americans? (Michael Jordan is included, yes, but he's as dark as any brother from the continent. What about a whole lot of other African-Americans who are clearly mixed (and I'm not talking "biracial"; I'm talking about the usual amalgam of peoples; we're mongrels, for God's sake)? The definition of "black" by implication is getting narrower and narrower. No Ethiopians. Not a single African-American!?? Hell, I'm mixed with (obviously) African (likely from Angola or the Congo), Cherokee and Cado Indian, Irish and God knows what else. And I'm black! Always have been, always will be.
I object to this silliness!
And why more than one example of Black-Asians and South Pacific peoples? This doesn't make a bit of sense to me! WTH? deeceevoice 02:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- The debate about Ethiopians will go on forever. My own personal opinion is that Ethiopians have a unique appearance in the world but are still black and recognizably african. there is a notion or stereotype that ethiopian women are attractive. Then I hear they look like caucasians. The implication of this is that caucasians are attractive and blacks are not. Praise for the beauty of ethiopian women often comes from black people- self hate I guess.
Even if an Ethiopian had white skin they would still look different from a german or a russian. According to the map the average skin tone in Ethiopia is moderately dark(level 3 on the "blackness" scale), that plus the fact they live in Africa, have an African culture is enough for them to be black.
Technically there is nothing wrong with having a larger gallery to accomodate a diversity of opinions. Four rows is okay. but since we would like to keep it as small as possible we should focus on the diversity of black people and avoid repititions.
I think our focus is too external ie how are blacks defined with respect to other races. we need more internal discusion on "blackness". There are various black sub-cultures that can be brought.
One interesting but controversial issue regarding the concept of race is blacks and sports. According to John Entine Blacks of West African origin dominate the sprints but are lousy long distance runners. Kenyans dominate long distance events but are lousy sprinters. This difference shows that being black is only skin deep. race and sports
Arabized may not be accurate as Arabs are relative newcomers in North Africa. Whereas Ethiopians have been possibly been living in the Area for 20, 000 years. Maybe it is Arabs who have been Ethiopianized.
User:Muntuwandi
05:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The article stated that white people do not have melanin. That information is incorrect, as can easily be checked via Google. See, e.g., http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/07/skin_cancer.html Albino people may not have any skin pigment, but even we northern European types whose capillary systems show through their skin in the high northern latitudes will tan up fairly well when exposed to UV. Chinese people can be as white as paper under their clothes, but the same people can tan as dark as many Afro-Americans. So I changed the wording slightly. In the process I was surprised to learn that black people can be subject to skin cancers too. So a believer in [race] as a tool for medical guidance might be tempted to direct resources away from public health announcements to darker populations telling them to check themselves for skin cancer, watch strange moles, etc. on the mistaken theory that the darker people are not at risk. It's true that the darker groups get less skin cancer, but when people in those groups do get skin cancer it will often be the worst kind. Just another reason to doubt the utility of [race] as a category for dealing with the world, IMHO. P0M 23:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
Anyone is at risk of skin cancer, and white people do have melanin. The amounts depending on where they are from. According to the map the lowest levels of pigmentation are found in Northern Europe and Scandanavia. Stephen Oppenheimer uses the term depigmented to describe the lowest levels. According to the hypothesis light skinned people are more prone to skin cancer and dark skinned people are more prone to rickets. The hypothesis further states that virtually depigmented people are only found in the Northern Hemisphere because there is no land mass that is habitable at comparable latitudes in the Southern Hemisphere. Hypothetically if weather in Antartica was not as harsh as it is, if it was connected to Africa, then Africans living in Antartica over time would become depigmented and their skin would resemble caucasians. Conversly light skinned people who came to the americas through alaska from asia, became darker skinned native americans when the populated central and south america.
Accordingly it is possible for any human population over time to change appearance in a different location. Stephen Oppenheimer believes white Australians are slowly becoming black.
That said African people may still have the greatest ability to modify appearance as they have the greatest genetic diversity User:Muntuwandi 00:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the subheads in the gallery, because they are problematic. Iseebias, however, keeps reinserting them.
lol. I just knew you would cite that page. Now, go back to that same page, click the link to "Somalis" and read this:
Genetics
The most distinct separation is between African and non-African populations. The northeastern-African -- that is, the Ethiopian and Somali -- populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations."
...The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity -- and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis -- makes simple-admixture models less likely[emphasis added]; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) -- that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe."
Translation: what I said.
You've got a point with Marley. We can substitute another West Indian, one who's not "mixed" -- though I don't know anyone who's tried to say Marley wasn't black.
Now, I really do have to get to work. deeceevoice 09:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Because this isn't about agreement in every instance. It is about presenting examples of people who are called/known as "black." The precise definition(s) of who are black and who are not vary depending on a variety of factors. And that's the entire point. The lead (2nd paragraph) clearly states as much!' You can't state the definition is in dispute and then cleave to a narrow band of humanity because it suits your own perspective. Nor, certainly, can you leave out a people who were/are emblematic of black people -- Ethiopians --simply because not everybody agrees they are black (and that is a fringe notion by all accounts. The facts are they're still commonly called "black" regardless of what theory one postulates about their origins). They commonly -- historically and today -- are called, and call themselves, black. That's sufficient to have them included. I mean there are people in Africa who will look at Condoleezza Rice and a good many African-Americans and claim we're not black, either! So, you're going to leave anyone African-American who could pass the paper bag test out of the category? Absurd! deeceevoice 11:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The term Arab admixture is technically incorrect because Arabs are newcomers in the area. Arabs arrived in North Africa in the 7th century AD by which Ethiopia was already an established empire. The genetic similarities are likely because the invading arabs mixed with the indigenous populations in the area(eg berbers) who had been mixing with ethiopians. The distinct facial features of Ethiopians are too prominent to be as a result of admixing. If they are any similarities with other groups it is probably genetic coincidence. What makes an Ethiopian look Ethiopian is not other races but it is the ethiopians themselves as they have some of the oldest DNA. Outside of Africa the closest resemblance to Ethiopians are actually Indians and not caucasians. User:Muntuwandi 05:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
condi int culturally black i think we should put someone else, bellafonte and others doubt how black she is. better to find another female, jada pinkett, and get better images for the tureg. funny AA have more "white" blood than ethiopians so y not put all of the AA in a mix race section. this is just to show the absurdity of the ongoing debate.-- HalaTruth(????) 11:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Some of the most mixed people on the planet are African Americans, Slavery has left so much White blood that even when AA go to Africa they are know as mixed, not pure. Every Caribbean person has between 80-60% non-African blood, they also have Carib blood. So how fine can we take this point, either we keep it simple or we take it complex. YOu cannot have AA in the pure cat and Ethiopians in the confused cat. 70:30 and 80:20 is all complex linage (if that argument holds).Please review original research it is pure original research? and it will only take a less fussy editor 2 sec to delete it, just like the population thing. someone like yom for example.-- HalaTruth(????) 12:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
But such matters are not -- I repeat -- not the purview of this particular article. This is about who is considered black, and Ethiopians fit the bill -- even the so-called "Caucasoid" ones. deeceevoice 12:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
And just where exactly in the text you've cited does it actually, precisely say that geneticists have said that Ethiopians aren't "black"? deeceevoice 12:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Again, this article isn't about "race." It is not about genetics. It is about who is considered "black." And, again, several groups treated in this article are considered black by some and not black by others -- as is noted in the second paragraph of the article. The parameters of who is considered black and who is not are spelled out early on; such classifications are variable. You, yourself acknowledge, however, that the majority of people on the planet consider Ethiopians black. What more do you need?
But for the sake of argument, percentages vary, depending on which study you're citing. This [21] particular study clusters slightly more than half (52%) of Ethiopia's three, major population groups with black Africans -- which comprise only 75% of the population -- citing clades and haplogroups specific to sub-Saharan Africa. The other half studied also have Asian affinities (which the study links to the "Out of Africa" model, which does not speak to admixture, but to shared characteristics, which it cryptically discounts out of hand -- presumably because it is irrelevant to admixture -- and does not discuss this matter further) and Arab and Near East affinities, citing clades and haplogroups more common, but not specific to Arabia and the Near East. This population also was found to possess two additional haplotypes which are consonant with black Africa -- "more common" there -- (but which for some reason aren't fleshed out in the article in terms of frequency). One must look at a tiny schematic (which I don't have time, or likely, frankly, the knowledge) to try to make sense of that piece.
And I'm using this study here precisely because the investigators took great pains to differentiate among Ethiopians -- who are not one, single people. I live in D.C. We have the greatest population of Ethiopians of any metropolitan area outside of Addis, and I see Ethiopians virtually every time I hit the street. And I know what they look like. (And I know they consider themselves black.) So, I'm always leery of studies that speak of "Ethiopians" as one group and then proceed to make generalizations about the entire populace of the country as a result. Further, it makes me wonder which populations they actually studied -- if the findings were skewed because the investigators started out with an unrepresentative sampling of the population.
So, with this study, we're looking at the three, major population groups of a nation, with the highest degree of genetic diversity -- because the other 25% are minority groups who cluster solidly with sub-Saharan Africans. So, right off the bat, you're already looking at 64 percent of the population that clusters solidly with sub-Saharan Africa -- read "with no meaningful/discernible admixture or relatedness to outside populations whatsoever." I haven't read further to determine the percentage of relatedness to other populations is represented by the other 36 percent, but suffice it to say that the vast majority of Ethiopians, taken as a group, across ethnicities, cluster genetically with sub-Saharan Africans. I mean what am I missing here? deeceevoice 13:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Bob Marley was born to white british father and black mother Cedella Booker. Marley had very little or no contact with his father or his fathers relatives growing up. He was raised entirely by his black mother. Therefore even though he was genetically multiracial, culturally he was black jamaican. He spoke like a black jamaican, his buddies Peter Tosh and Bunny Wailer were black , he married a black cuban Rita Marley and the reggae music he played can be traced back to the ancient drum rythyms of black africa.
What is interesting is that in the new world many traditions that have long been abandoned in Africa have been preserved in the Americas. In Africa after colonialism there was a desire to become modernized quickly. For example traditional mysticisms and religions like voodoo were condescended upon by the African elite, and the church chasitized them as being demonic and pagan. Upwardly mobile blacks would disassociate themselves from such traditions and many traditions would be lost and forgotten. However in the Americas these traditions would be used as symbol of resistance to the oppression of slavery. Many blacks linked the church with slavery and thus continued to practice ancient religions. The result is Voodoo, Candomble, and Orixas are openly practiced in Haiti and brazil but are rarely seen in public in Africa.
Afro brazilian Walson Botelho says
African culture is stronger in our part of Brazil than in some parts of Africa. Several gods forgotten in Africa are still worshiped in Bahia.
The basic point is that even though there has been extensive mixing in the americas, elements of black african culture are still pervasive and in some cases more african than on the mother continent. User:Muntuwandi 15:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Condi is Congo would be a mulatto, she is at least 10%-35% non-African, most AA are, we dont know her DNA. It is OR to add her, or any AA into a pure cat. Their lingage is complex. So how can we seperate out Ethiopia. As Deeceevoice has said at length, the genetic map of Ethiopia is not enough to draw conclusions about all Ethiopians. Today and in the past they are the definitive Black people. for heaven sake Ethiopian means burnt face. Original research means you are as editors adding unreferenced groupings and not applying the criteria across the board. According to the critics on this very page, Ethiopian, AA, San none of them are black, they are only African. So the gallery contradicts the text. To seperate out groups is to make the gallery worst. Not everyone agrees about averages because some AA might have 99% while some may have 60% African genes, thus the average is the middle of those studied. Basically no African American fits the pure section, or no San fits the pure section as they were called COLORED under SA law. how much % DNA do you need to be considered mixed 80% or 60% this is why it is original research-- HalaTruth(????) 14:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Hybrid populations with multiple lines of descent are to be characterized in just those terms: as of multiple descent. Thus, American Negroids are individuals most of whose ancestors from 15 to 5000 generations ago were sub- Saharan African. Specifying 'most' more precisely in a way that captures ordinary usage may not be possible. '> 50%' seems too low a threshold; my sense is that ordinary attributions of race begin to stabilize at 75%. An individual, half of whose ancestors are East Asian and half Caucasian, is to be categorized as just that, of half northeast Asian and half Caucasian ancestry. Nothing in continental cladistics precludes mixed ancestry, any more than the concept of a breed of dog excludes mixtures. [11]
The highest estimates anyone has ever claimed for Ethiopians is 64% sub-Saharan which means they would not be considered negroid by Levin, but multiracial. African-Americans, who are on average 83% sub-Saharan, would qualify as negroid on average. Iseebias
Wrong again, Iseebias -- if you're using the figures I've presented above. That's 64% of Ethiopians solidly clustering in the "sub-Saharan" African group with no evidence of admixture or affinities w/outside (non black African) populations. That doesn't even begin to address the other 34 percent who are said to evidence admixture (though that, too, is disputed, as I've mentioned earlier), or some affinities/similarities with Arabs and Eurasians - but who clearly also have affinities with black African groups to varying degrees. Even though they are said to cluster more closely with Arabs and Eurasians, they very clearly aren't completely Arab or Eurasian, so the degree to which they do so (the variables involved) cannot be known without consulting very detailed genetic schematics (which, frankly, I don't have a clue how to interpret). So, even if this 34 percent were, say, 75 percent Arab and Eurasian -- taking Levin's definition of the threshold for "racial" identity (so, assuming this 34 group is non-black by Lewin's definition, which is being wa-aay too generous) -- then the final result is that Ethiopians are 74.5 percent indigenous, black African, with 25.5 percent with sufficient evidence of non-indigenous accretions so as to be classified as non-black (in effect, quadroons -- whiter-looking than, say, Alicia Keys, who is mulatto -- the very notion of which is absurd; it's way too extreme). And that's, again, being overly generous with the "Ethiopians aren't black" nonsense. Looks to me like Ethiopia was -- and remains overwhelmingly -- a black, African nation (genetically and historically), a matter which has never been in question among Ethiopians themselves. deeceevoice 05:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Wrong again? LOL! I haven't been wrong yet :-) Just because 64% cluster solidly with sub-Saharan doesn't mean they're not mixed, it just means they're closer to sub-Saharans than any other "race". Anyway, rather than try to make sense of complex genetic studies we're not qualified to interpret, I quote directly from the man universally regarded as the most important population geneticist in the world today, Cavalli-Sforza, who says this about Ethiopians on pg 199 of The Great Human Diasporas:
The Ethiopians compromise a number of different ethnic groups and have many more languages. They are one of the forty-two genetic groups emerging from the fifteen hundred populations studied, and are classified as African, genetically speaking, even if a closer look reveals that they are special Africans with a high level of genes of caucasoid (white) origin. In fact we can call them an admixture of African and west Asian (Arab) genes. The two groups contribute respectively about 60 percent and 40 percent of their genes. But linguistically speaking, they are closer to the Arabs, because they generally speak languages from a family (Afro-Asiatic) covering northern Africa, Arabia, and the Middle East.
The mixed genetic makeup and use of Afro-Asiatic languages reflect the history of the Ethiopians, who for a long time had close contacts with the Arabs. In and around the earliest Christian times, there was an empire that took in both regions. Its capital was first at Saba (Sheba) in Arabia and later at Axum, in Africa. According to Ethiopian tradition, Makeda, the Queen of Sheba, visited King Solomon and had by him a son, Menelek, founder of the Ethiopian dynasty, which has only recently been overthrown. The Bible tells of these events.
Now I can't imagine why anyone would think Ethiopians are multiracial?! (sarcasm) Anyway we've reached a compromise by putting very dark skinned Ethiopians in the top third of the gallery (since they probably have the least admixture) and I'm not going to nitpick about Ethiopians overall being less than 75% (at least they're well above 50% in some studies which is more than I can say for some people who've tried to call themselves black) because black and multiracial are mostly social constructions Iseebias
I am Ethiopian (1/2), and nothing you said is correct it is your original research based upon a very limited understanding of Africans. YOu see that Kenyan man, he is Masai, Masai are closly related to the Oromo people, they come from the same place (KENYA). Oromo are the majority of Ethiopian people. Amhara are no lighter than other ethnic groups in Ethiopia. The waChaga of TZ are very light skinned, the San are the lightest Africans in Africa, they are almost yellow (lighter than Arabs). This is the danger of assumption based on racistly feed information. Keep your opinions as it is clear you are not intrested in learning. Afro-Asiatic is spoken by Hausa. The Ethiopians are mothers of the Arabs of Yemen (they werent even called Arabs back then), they occupied it in antiquity. Google Woodabe are they mixed as well, they look identical to Somali and Amhara poeple. Ethiopia has more Ethnic diversity than all of South Africa and Kenya combined. Do not discuss antiquity as if you go back far enough everybody is from Africa so nobody is mixed. But you have 2 sets of rules one to prove a crazy idea. AA are more mixed than Ethiopians. AA have European blood which is less than 120- 300 years ago. The biggest Joke is Condi the "pure Negro" is light skin in Ethiopia. The few "Arab" genes that these freaks claim exist are 1000's of years old. YOu are pure OR as you are limiting race to genetics and racist assumptions of "negro features". The people of Rwanda look just like habasha people, the fulani also. In West Africa the same thing among some Fon. This info isnt for you as it is clear you have no interest in learning from the people telling you, it is for the peoople that read your rant. If they are social constructions then your argument is an opinion and invalid in the real world where Black means Ethiopian, AA, SAn, Gambian, and Nubian. Everyone is from one race the human race, all genes go black to Africa. Most Ethiopians are dark, i am from Ethiopia i think i know what the people in my country look like. Most Ethiopians are not Hailes color, and the ones with the straightest hair are usually very dark, intresting fact. this debate needs to end and i think editors should delete it if it continues as it keeps coming up and doesnt develop this article! fly ethiopia and see for yourself, so racist to discuss a people you dont know or never seen methinks--
HalaTruth(????)
13:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Hal have you ever been to America? What are you FREAKING talking about when you say African Americans are more mixed than Ethiopians? Just cause the ones you see in the FREAKING movies are mixed doesn't mean the typical African American on the street is very mixed. It makes me so FREAKING MAD to see a guy who looks 90% Arab thinking he can lead the Rastafarian movement. That makes my blood FREAKING BOIL trying to play them for fools like that! I think you need to listen to the African Americans. Everything you know about being black you learned from the African-Americans so if the African-Americans aren't ready to accept you as black you got to respect that! I'm so mad I could spit! Christmasgirl
I am following this discussion and I am astonished. Christmasgirl and Iseebias are really out of line with the remarks. The arguements you bring up don't hold ground what so ever. And I also wanna ask Christmas girl, do you know who that man is in the picture that iseebias call's a man from Ethiopia? No, I think this discussion needs to be based on scientific facts and handled in a professional manner. There are several things you have to take into account when stating comments and defining who or what is to be called "black". First Black is a term used to identify people who where not white. In the medieval times an African was called Moorish by early Europeans and Zanj by Arabs. The term negro was invented by the Portugeuse after there first encounter with Sub-Saharan Africa'd Zanzibar (Vasco da Gama). Black became a synonom for Negro and a negro was stereotyped as having a flat nose, thick lips, dark skin and crispy hair. So everyone who fitted within these description's was therefor a negro. But as we now know, this racial typecasting is UNSCIENTIFIC and therefor MUST be dismissed. Just as the onedrop rule should be dismissed for 1 since it was used (and here I agree a little with Cgirl) to separate Africans from Europeans and to maintain the "pureness" of the white race 2 the fact that it helped to maintain the segregation law's. May I remind you that in the time these definitions where made and used Europe still thouhgt that the Earth was flat, draining blood with leaches was a way to cure typhoid and other ailments, and people with epelitic seasures where possesed by the devil! Scientific studies in America has found in Every AAn traces of European, Asian, Native An DNA-markers, And that a large percentage of Euro-Americans have significant traces of African-American DNA-Markers! These studies can be viewed on the internet if you'll take the time to google a bit!! Now for the Ethiopians and the Africans: you both Cgirl and IBs, are wrong and do not take a very SIGNIFICANT thought in considaration: Migration. Halaqal has good points there she is not only talking out of experience but she is stating the same thing scientist UNIVERSALLY conclude: 1 that through migration one group with specific markers merge with another group with specific markers creating a new group with a new DNA make up. Ethiopia alone contrives of minimum 42 different groups with each his own specific markers. BTW the Oromo-tribe is one of those 42 groups and to which Archeologist and Forensic Antropologists say the first Pharoa of Egypt (Narmer/Min) probably belongs. THIS IS NOT AFROCENTRISM BUT FACT!!! Migration is VERY VERY important when you want to outline groups, pinpoint there origins and define who they are or who they where. It has been proven not only by DNA but archeological findings that the migration started arround 15,000 BC when groups whent separate ways out of the region that is now known as the Saharan dessert. The migration whent south, northwest north and east. some-time later the Nubian A-group emerged on the banks of the Nile. Now we all now that Nubian's where darkskinned people aswell as the Early Egyptian's. As far as I am concerned the whole Anti-AFROCENTRISM debate and definitition comes from EUROCENTRICS who lack the ability to confirm the obvious. That we are all from ONE RACE and we all have a unique bleuprint which gives us our look. Again Halaqal is right. I see it within my own family. While my youngest sister looks more like a or even Ethiopian my Elder has the morphology of an Native American, My mother passed on many occassions for an Erythrean and My Sister looks more like an Asian we all have different skin tones predominantly red and yellow skin undertone. While when anyone will perseave me as black I am for a 42% Native through both parents 19%jewish and 5%Asian while the rest of me is African. The fact that I see myself as African Carribean is solely because I rather identify with my African Ancestry. The Cavalli-Sforza, IBs, is not undisputed. You should find a more reliable source since this particular gentleman is being fronted by 4 other scientist who oppose his views. And if one scientist come's up with some BS doesn't make him a world renowned scientits, ofcourse only to those who's agenda these views support! BTW this man comes from the 1920 so he's ancient as well as the research methods, the whole thesis based on insignificant and uncomplete researchdate would today not be admissable so: DISMISS!!!#@! ADD. Furthermore, His Imperial Majesty Negus Negesti Haille Selassie (YEAH, THE ANONIMOUS ETHIOPIAN MAN IN THE PICTURE), Is significant to every black man and woman everywhere, You can also trace his line further back to the Biblical times (the oldest monarchy in the world). During the struggle he invited black people from whereever they where to come back to live in Ethiopia. That's why he is so important to Rastafarians. But I guess you didn't know.
Mr or Miss (i guess u r a girl i dont know why)Leave the gallery alone, Deecees version is far more acceptable. Deccevoice and you will disrupt this article so just let it go. I back up this gallery as it is better than the alternative, but only in the name of stablity.-- HalaTruth(????) 14:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't intend to edit war this into the ground. I've stated my case -- over and over again. The gallery still isn't quite right. The last row still has two Papuans (with a third in the body of the article). That's overkill. (And I, frankly, don't remember my other objection at this point. lol) But let's keep talking, people, and keeping things civil. It's tedious, but bearable, as long as we keep a level of respect, openness and cooperation. Bless. I'm out for now. deeceevoice 14:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The gallery will never please everyone but at least we cannot complain about diversity. Blacktino, blaropean???? User:Muntuwandi 16:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, we've got Hugo Chavez. He's an Afro-Latino. I think we should replace the Papuan in the yellow shirt with a black European -- like maybe the athlete who was there before. (There are already two other photos -- as I keep pointing out -- of Papuan peoples in the article.) I'll hunt it up and do it. deeceevoice 17:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Did it, but promptly had to revert it. Switching out the old Papuan guy meant the athlete was under a subhead which implied he wasn't of recent African descent -- when he is. He is (or his people are) from Surinam. deeceevoice 17:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You have a very good point. I don't particularly like the photo -- not because, as someone said, he's "unphotogenic." I don't have a problem with the way the guy looks. He just looks like he's had a hard life. But it's simply not a very good photo. (It's out of focus.) And then there's the problem with three Papuans represented. But, then, I'd hate to sacrifice the photo of the children. They're cute. Unless someone has any better ideas, I'm can live with it. That brings to mind the fact that the top section doesn't have any blue-black black folks in it. Do we have a photo of someone from Sudan we could insert, maybe in place of the Dinka? deeceevoice 18:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
File:Michaeljacksonmugshot.png
mayb pics of mj from the 1970s when he was young and had an afro User:Muntuwandi 04:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I was only half serious about Michael Jackson. My larger point is that we should add someone who is black by most definitions yet white as a ghost, in sharp contrast to the South pacific guy who is black as can be in color but not defined as black by many. A native African albino would be a cool choice if we could find such a photo Iseebias
U SHOULD PUT IN MJ, because he doesnt fit all the definitions and is an intresting case study. he has transcended physical race. genetically black, physically "unknown".-- HalaTruth(????) 13:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, I disagree. Not because he's an embarrassment to himself and, for some black people (not me; I'm not accountable for him), an embarrassment to the "race." He's a freak -- pretty much sui generis. In an article on white people, should we include as an anomaly taxorexic white women who get butt implants, grotesquely collagen-swollen lips, who rat their hair, and sing in AAVE, trying to sound like (name their favorite black recording artist)? (Jeeze. Except for the butt implants and swollen lips, I think I just described Christina Aguilera! 8-O ) Or in an Asian gallery, Asians who get their eyefolds sliced, breast and butt implants -- or the Ganguro girls of Japan? MJ would be an utter waste of space better utilized with some other, truly instructive, photo. deeceevoice 17:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
How about a section "Black people who look like they belong in a Tim Burton movie"? Look, this has gotten beyond silly. Let it drop. deeceevoice 02:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that this article should have two types of racial definitions:those made by black people and those made by Europeans. In the name of counteracting systematic bias, the historical section with definitions by Europeans should be moved to the bottom and should be given less weight. The self-definitions made by black people should be given more weight. The white people article never lets non-whites define white people, so why should this article rely on Europeans to define the black people? The reader should have a clear heads up about what definitions are self-defined and which definitions come from white people who have less of a vested interest in the definition.---- Dark Tea 15:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[[:"I contend that black is a state of mind -- a state that Rice arbitrarily denied and currently defies. I send my condolences to Condoleezza for the awakening of methodical individualism and the death of her blackness. That blackness nurtured her and made her eligible for the affirmative action to which she is now, conveniently, oblivious. All those who subscribe to the same contra black thought should no longer accept anything on the basis of race. Accordingly, Rice should resign from the cabinet. As far as I'm concerned, she is as black as Rush Limbaugh and as acceptable for black America as Elvis." [23] Same was said about other people, for instance Clarence Thomas and Larry Elder.
And this: "For me, being Black is a state of mind: My Blackness cannot be judged by the color of my skin, the width of my nose or the kinkiness of my hair. For me, being Black is knowing and respecting more than 300 years of African-American history. It is realizing that I am a part of this history, because it has made me who I am today." [24] And Walter White for instance, looked like a white man, but selfidentified as black. [25] And Wallace Fard Muhammad, the founder of the Nation of Islam, was according to his birth certificate a white man, but he and his followers claimed he was black. SecurID 23:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand why there is a photo of sand with the caption "Some feel the term sub-Saharan is rooted in racism." First of all, this article is about people, and a photo of sand doesn't offer anything useful to the topic. Second, captions are supposed to describe what is actually in the photo, not provid editorial commentary about a topic that is only indirectly related to what appears in the photo. I suggest that the irrelevant photo of sand be deleted. Spylab 17:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles aren't for posting "really cool photos." This is supposed to be a serious encyclopedic article. There are plenty of photos on this page already; more than there are on most Wikipedia articles. It diverts attention away from the main topic of this article. The useless photo of sand should be deleted. Go ahead and delete repetitive photos if you want; like I said, there are still way more photos in this article than there are in other Wikipedia articles. Spylab 18:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree which is why I removed it. A pic of tropical Africa would be more appropriate and if we really want desert there is desert in South Africa, SqueakBox 18:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
consider these. User:Muntuwandi 18:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see any connection between black people and sand. Can someone please elaborate? SqueakBox 19:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Added new infor on scholars who criticize definitions of blackness. This info was taken out by Issebia who has made several erroneous statements as regards blacks and race. For example he claims that Ethiopians are 40% Arab, but the study he cites says no such thing. Indeed, that cited study is itelf seriously open to question on a number of points by the sources I reference. There are also a number of other erroneous statments made as well. This new information balances the statements in this article by Rushton, etc, and supports some of the data presented by Alum, DarkTea and Deeceevoice. Please do not remove this new info until other editors have had a chance to review and comment. Adrunkman 00:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the section he created is that it misses the whole point of the article. The article is not about proving one definition of blackness is less scientific than another. Blackness is just a social construct and people have used all kinds of nutty and arbitrary ways of defining it, including poking people's hair with pencils. So if people decide tommorow that only Ethiopians are black then that's what black will mean & no amount of science can change the fact that black identity has once again been reconstructed Iseebias
Comments
Okay put it in. It's makes my point anyway which is that many people have questioned whether Ethiopians are black. The fact that all your sources are bending over backwards to prove Ethiopians are black means that it's something that requires desperate proof. I thought it was understood. My only concern is that it doesn't fit the theme of the article which is simply a list of diverse perspectives on what it means to be black not a scientific debate about whether North/East Africans have Arab blood. The scholars I quoted like Diop & Rushton only make vague references to science in passing, I don't quote their entire thesis or try to justify their definitions. I simply document them as part of the diverse spectrum of views on this topic. And btw Cavalli-Sforza uses the term African when discussing genetics. It's you who is making the leap that implies Cavalli-Sforza is defining black people. Trust me if Cavalli-Sforza had offered a definition of black people I would have put in the article by now Iseebias
The frequent use of these words in what seem like encyclopediac-NPOV context, is all quite POV: the terms presuppose the existence of "pure" races. Jd2718 03:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
If in the photo Slash is expressing his opinion about people who attach importance to his "race," then I agree with him. ;-) P0M 02:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
this section should be rewritten as black diversity or the section should be deleted. if we have a this then we could have a section on Bantoid, khoisan, dinka, west african, east african, masai etc. In the west appearance is superficial and simply based on skin color. But in Africa it is possible to identify what general region someone is from based on appearance. Certain phenotypes such as nose, forehead, eyes and other more subtle features give cues to where someone is from. Basically Africans are generally dark skinned but have a spectrum of different appearances and cultures.
where ever there is a population overlap, mixing is expected. So not only do horn africans but also kenyans, tanzanians, particularly from Zanzibar all have arab influence. Indeed Swahili itself is a bantu language with a significant arabic vocabularly. Arabic influence extended all over the east coast of africa as far south as mozambique. My point once again is we are dwelling too much on the so called caucosoid features of horn africans. What next the epicanthic folds of khoisan. In fact we could make a case saying that whites are black because they both lack epicanthic folds and that asians are khoisans because they both have epicanthic fold. We could say that everyone with the same blood group are one race. Thus a japanese, a mandingo, a peruvian with blood group A are all the same race. Scandanavians and dinkas are one race because they are tall.
The concepts of race and ethnicity are always largely based on simple things such as skin color,language, culture and location. 100 years ago before DNA was discovered, if we were to ask are ethiopians black or Arab, what would the answer be. User:Muntuwandi 05:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I still believe this section should be rewritten or better still deleted. The obsession with the Ethiopians continues. I think we should avoid this controversial and divisive issue altogether. Even if the heading is changed it still has the same undertones of saying some are less black than others. The section is a distraction from the main article. My personal preference is always for simplified information as opposed to long winded theories and hypothesis that will just confuse readers.
what is the whole aim of this section. User:Muntuwandi 13:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
but the arabs in question look just like the bantus. why the obsession with horn africans.
Finally the idea of assigning admixture percentages to whole groups is innappropriate for this article. As we have done with other population such as in brazil. Instead of assigning a percentage we have just mentioned that the people are a multiracial spectrum. User:Muntuwandi 14:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
While i am not too aware of what goes on in the academic world regarding horn africans. we are all familiar with how the common man perceives who is black. This should be given preference over hypothesis that only a few in the academic world will have access to. A person in a rural village in africa has little concern about admixture percentages and will simply see things in black, white and brown. For the whole article I would much prefer most of the opinions of psychologists and psychiatrists to be removed. We do not need some college professors deciding who is black, rather the collective perceptions of society at large should be taken into accout. In short we need to "dumb down" some of the phylosophical jargon.
If one met a horn african, and said to them you are 40% arabic, I guess they might be insensed by the allegation. Throughout this article I think that we had been succesful at avoiding the term "admixture" which is fast becoming a much misused word. I see its execessive use as quite politically incorrect and not very good etiquette. we do not ask say for example each african american what his or her admixture proportions are. but we do know that mixing is a reality. There must be a much less controversial explaining whatever concept that the section is attempting to explain. User:Muntuwandi 16:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
If as some say race is a social construct, then it is the common man who constructs it and not the elite professor. Scientists have began to discard the concept of race, but it is central in the life of the common man(His neighborhood, family, friends etc). I am not against science but against the scientific opinions of a few. I just find it odd because a four year old can recognize black from white. So why do not we need a rushton or satel to advise us on who is black. But anything scientific that can help us articulate what a person goes through in that fraction of second that is required to recognize the race of an individual is useful. Surveys, polls, statistics are better sources because the give group dynamics as opposed to what one prof says. The article can very well articulate "black people" without rushton, satel, sforza User:Muntuwandi 18:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's just show everyone's opinion, the professors, the common man's, the 4 year olds, show all the disagreements as you go from the U.S. to Latin America to Jamaica. Hell in Australia they think Australian aboriginals are black! Let's show everyone's opinion. In the U.K. they even thought people from India were black, but they called them "blackeys" not black. That's what make this article interesting. Hell, I'm even interested in the Afrocentric opinions as crazy as I think they are Gottoupload
undue weight this page is about Black people not exploring opinions of quaks et al with strange lopsided POV. Which have more to do with another topic than this one. Focus and due weight means that this article must be balance and discuss the issues in balance. not be original research. As explained above by the POV agent isseebias a promise was made not to introduce this nonesense into this article, subsequently i return and see the POV again. Dispite this agreement this OR was added by citing and giving undue weight to a psuedo topic with an article.-- HalaTruth(????) 22:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
this debate has been exhausted and editors agree not to add in this content as it is undue weight, this article is about black people, not strange theories according to a group of white people about one group of Africans. ISEEBIAS, if what you told me is true and you comply then i encorage you to revert the inclusion of this addition not feed the problem. other editor see the talk page and stick to what editor have agreed upon in order to develop this section. Undue weight is only one violation, add that argument to race not black people.-- HalaTruth(????) 09:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
At least we have come to some sort of consensus regarding horn africans. One thing
Anyone with a brain has political views one way or another. She's a Yale lecturer and medical expert on human variation published by the NY Times. The most reliable possible source, and she's the only person who defines black as "recent African descent"-a key point that needs to be made. Very strong keep.
Jensen's an emminent psychologist who has been the dominant figure in the race debate since the 1960s. And he's not even giving a biological definition but a social one.
Nothing against them, but who are these folks. I may recognize one or two but i do not know the rest. I think that is why this article is jumbled and does not flow. So many different opinions.
to start with this guy
This sounds like a page right out of Genesis chapter 1
Secondly
Do we really need a professor to tell us that. This is common sense. I think many of the things these so called experts are saying can be mentioned without bringing their personality to the fore. User:Muntuwandi 03:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Hybrid populations with multiple lines of descent are to be characterized in just those terms: as of multiple descent. Thus, American Negroids are individuals most of whose ancestors from 15 to 5000 generations ago were sub- Saharan African. Specifying 'most' more precisely in a way that captures ordinary usage may not be possible. '> 50%' seems too low a threshold; my sense is that ordinary attributions of race begin to stabilize at 75%. An individual, half of whose ancestors are East Asian and half Caucasian, is to be categorized as just that, of half northeast Asian and half Caucasian ancestry. Nothing in continental cladistics precludes mixed ancestry, any more than the concept of a breed of dog excludes mixtures. [12]
But we don't need to get that precise or technical. Rushton & Satel's quote when combined make roughly the same point. In fact I added time estimates Rushtom made elsewhere to the article to make his definition more meaningful Iseebias
its time to start thinking about archiving the talk page.
The ultimate question is do we really need the quotations of these people in conceptualizing black people. I personally think most of their observations are commons sense or unnecessary. They may be known in their respective academic circles but they are not household names. If someone was to read this article for the first time, how would he have confidence in them because he does not know them. Once again I am not against scientists, but say if there was a quote from Mandela, or Dr. Martin Luther King, one can easily relate to them as opposed to some relative unknowns. User:Muntuwandi 15:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
On the street I see asian, people, white people, black people. I do not need lineaus to tell me who they are. It is self evident.
User:Muntuwandi
19:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
That is not entirely true. these guys were born in the 1700, 100 years after which blacks were already in americas. are you insisting that there were not know as blacks in 1619.
The new organization is entirely based on race. The massive remake of the article goes well beyond bold. Jd2718 15:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I am in objection to the use of terms in the lead that would subliminally portray blacks a perpetually oppressed people. Hence all terms regarding oppression, slavery, discrimination should not be present in the lead.
This is a reason I had the population information. If you see there are some countries in africa that have an almost 100% black population. How is racial discrimination a problem in those areas because there are hardly any other people. Therefore we cannot define blacks based on any history of discrimination. User:Muntuwandi 15:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Jd2718 the lead you have is very much US centric. The issue of oppression should be left out of the lead. It can be mentioned elsewhere but not in the lead. being black is just that. Certain places being black is just about skin color and cannot be connected with discrimination and oppression. We should mention that definitions differ from place to place, yes, and that some see it as a social construct. Not all places have the civil rights history the US has.
Your lead also states that Europeans defined blackness, the lead is borderline racist.
User:Muntuwandi
16:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Then is it blacks who constructed whiteness. That is controversial and should be left out of the lead. What should be in the lead should be the least controversial information. I believe nobody made black or white, the two both came into existence when two different cultures collided. One of light skinned people and the other of dark skinned. In the US maybe there was a social construct whereby someone with very light skin may be called black but in a village in africa it was all about skin color.
The lead is going to have problems, I suggest we keep it simple as it was before. User:Muntuwandi 17:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
everywhere European explorers went from polynesia to the new world, the natives described them as white men. Therefore the social constructions were self evident. Nobody constructed white people, same as did black people. When white explorers came to east africa, the local tribes people called them Muzungu which means one who goes round and round in swahili. This because the explorers were looking for something (gold , the source of the nile etc) and often seemed to be wandering aimlessly. Differences in appearances, culture, language, and behaviour are self evident. So to say that Europeans constructed blackness is absurd when black and white are self evident to a four year old. User:Muntuwandi 17:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Once again we need to keep the lead free from bias and opinion, controversies should be in other places. A four year old in an isolated village in africa knows a white from black and does not know lineaus, is unaffected by european academics. Yes whites were the first to make an in depth study of the races but the people themselves were already self aware.
finally the social construct is not entirely accepted by everyone. There are still some biological issues to race. Apart from the obvious dark skin, other issues include ; medicine sickle cell disease is most common in black people, so is the risk of prostate cancer is higher with black men. In this case social construct is baseless. From a lay mans perspective, a doctor would not waste his time testing for sickle cell disease on a white person. User:Muntuwandi 19:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
the race article says
not everyone agrees about the social construct thing, therefore putting controversial theories in the lead is a POV. In the body yes, but not in the lead.
the race article says
According to some recent publications and discussions in US academia, since his ancestry is from East Africa and not West Africa, he is not black.-- Filll 20:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Enough of the campaigning! What the hell has Obama done?
Back to the matter at hand. Obama's father was Luo, the largest non-Bantu ethnic group in Kenya. They are a Nilotic people and most certainly black. [27] Not even those people who try to perpetrate the hoax that some Northeast Africans and some East Africans, by virtue of geography, somehow aren't black should be able to say with a straight face that Obama isn't black. The man self-identifies as black. He looks black. Hell, he doesn't even look like a mulatto. If I saw him on the street, I wouldn't assume he was of mixed parentage. The brutha is clearly a brutha. And those who try to say otherwise obviously don't have a clue what they're talking about. deeceevoice 20:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
HalaTruth(????) 20:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. "Caucasoid" refers to phenotype -- not geographical origin. And you can't argue with objective fact. It is a known fact that many Senegalese have no/limited prognathism. That makes them, according to those who use such a term to describe some Ethiopians, "Caucasoid" in that respect. There are Nubians -- full blood -- with straightish hair and narrow nasal indices. But these same white people don't call them "Caucasoid," either. Why? Because there's no way in hell they can maintain that the Senegalese populations and the Nubian populations are mixed with anyone. They can't get away with the lie. Besides, they're not interested in trying to claim Senegal or Nubia. They are, however, intent upon appropriating dynastic Egypt. Hence the lie of "Caucasoid," black North Africans. The fact is they are all African phenotypes; they are all Africoid peoples. deeceevoice 22:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Obama was smart enough to speak out against the war while other democrats supported it. He's introduced excellent pro-black legislation to have police interviews videotaped. He has a brilliant career as a civil rights attorney. He's absolutely brilliant. First African American president of the Harvard Law Review. Most gifted and charismatic speaker in politics since Kennedy. And while I consider him multiracial not black, you don't need to be black to be African-American. Being Afro-multiracial or even even Afro-octoroon is enough to be African-American because it's a far more inclusive term. An African-American would have to be very foolish to not vote for Obama Iseebias
white people never really worry about the mike tyson type, it is the type with brains they worry about, the ones that cut ilitary bujets and will be more pro-Islam than pro-Israel. They only c him as multiracial because it is the string that links them to him, nothing to do with if he is or isnt. watch this space. The one thing he will do is challenge the system and force AMerica to be more honest about racism vs merit.yes if he cant get elected no AA will-- HalaTruth(????) 21:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
well deeceevoice i hope u r smart 2 c beyond his 1/2 whiteness and dont end up voting for a 100% white person. Sometimes we miss the point what about voting for a fully black person like rev. jesse peterson? y do we treat each other like this?-- HalaTruth(????) 21:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
If I do vote for a 100% white person (if there is such a thing), it'll be because of what they bring to the table -- not the color of their skin. Same with Obama. Otherwise, we end up with turncoat self-haters like Clarence Thomas, Alan Keyes and the like. Pleeze. deeceevoice 21:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
100% of an imaginary leader or 25% of hope? waiting on a messiah that will never arrive. i am shocked at this debate. dont think turncoat is Obama. a man cant b guilty for being mixed or can he? we dont like sharpton cuz his hair is too slick, we dont like Mr FKhan cuz he 2 hardcore (and Islamic and brown skin). we end up with...-- HalaTruth(????) 22:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Hell, I'm still waiting to see who else is running. There must be at least half a dozen more folks waiting to throw their hats into the ring. A politician eventually ends up catering to his base. If a bunch of smitten, mealy mouthed (politically middle-of-the-road) "can't we just all get along," "we love our mulattos" white folks get solidly behind Obama, give him $ and hold him up as their candidate, what? You're gonna tell me Obama isn't going to start parsing his words and altering his platform to get elected? Well, I don't know that. It's been my experience you can't predict what a candidate is going to do once the political pressure is on. Obama laughed and poo-pooed the idea of him running for president a while back, saying (in effect) he hadn't done anything as a senator yet. Well, he still hasn't. But is he running? Yep. It's possible that whole rock-star/adoration mess got to him. And if it did, then what's next. I'm still waitin'. deeceevoice 22:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Brock O'Bama User:Muntuwandi 05:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Do we have to handle the Tamil/Dravidian matter again and again. Some of u even doubt about if EastAfricans are Black. So how come u think Tamils are Black if they fit only the dark skin criteria to be "Black" (like allmost every Indian do)and also fall us Caucasoid in term of race, while EastAfrican share a Black ancestry and are atleast "Partly Black".
Just one point, there is no fuckin race called Tamils. Tamil is one of the ethnicities of Indians, like Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali, Telugu, Assamese,.... And those both girls doesnt even look a little bit "Black", even if they smile and their nose looks "broader".
I've read something about selfdefinition.. If we talk about self definition most Tamils, not all, will agree thet they are not "Black", what ever that means. Putting people together by skin colour is as much ridiculous as putting people together with hair-, or eyecolour. Skin colour is an adaptation to the climate. Just like hair- or eyecolour. Not one single Nation describes Tamils/Indians as Black in their racial profiling. It doesnt matter if some of you think that way.
Asian2duracell
00:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Am nobody ever see slash, thats how he mask his black identity, i think he is a good example we all know him. etc etc. Ahhhhhh Vin Disel put him, he keep cropping his hair but his voice gives him up everytime-- HalaTruth(????) 00:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
-- HalaTruth(????) 00:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that Black people have to discuss and argue their identy and origin's with white people? Can a white person answer this question: How white are YOU? And what if I was going to make a definition on who is going to be called white from now on and who's going to be called, off-white all the way up to black. To take it a step further: what if I add some characterics and race trades on your mental state of mind (The less melanin one has the lower on the lather you'll end up). Than, to take it up a knodge, how would you like it if I would impose MY DEFINITION of you to you and declared it to be the UNIVERSAL TRUTH? Than I will go to WIKI-White-people and put in some bogus lil'entry! How does that sound? It is not up to you to define me or any other person for that matter and push me out of history!! You cannot do that anymore that ship has sailed.
And tell me what do you have to back up these thesis of yours? Dravidians probably African but an essentially African cultural is in your imagination probably EuroArabic. Proposterous!! Than the case of defining by morphology or other physical trades whither someone is Caucasian or not, by which method? HITLERS? Are you going that way? The definition used by so-called scholars living in dark-aged Europe is a crock, gibberish from old white-only-in-it-for-the-loot-man and their melanin-envy, trying to come across as litterates, inventing terms to seperate people (white) from so-called subhumans (by Euro definition: darkskinned, broadlipped, kinkyhaired people). And you are so NOT SMART to accept their way of thinking with analysing where this is coming from. Next thing you're gonna tell me is that the earth is flat and women belong in the kitchen.. . (You know that the earth is not flat right and women today have voting-rights).
The only way to PROPERLY identify whither people belonging to the same group share the same historical origin is by studying the history of those people and groups maticulously. Cultural trades, religious believe, language, burialsites, skills, arts, legends, fabels and folklore all the way down to their genetic make up. Next is to go digg in the ground to find traces. I doubt seriously whither the whites and that obnoxious lil'Chinagirl have done that. This discussion seriously needs to get away from the European focus point and back to where it belongs, Africans.
Objectivity is urgently needed in these pages. Have none of you (again whites) had a proper education? Haven't you learned that arguements need to be backed up by scientific evidence, reckonising sources and USING them (f.e. Halaqal as an Ethiopian had to clearly very concise and accurate arguements). It seems to me that you are deliberately ignoring the objections, using this board for your own shady views. You need to stop it, take a reality check, argue with the evidence instead of basing the evidence to support your arguement, handle the evidence as objectively as you can (if you master that capacity), and get of your imaginary throne to listen to people with a little more knowledge about the region than yourself. Got it? good.
Now, In the light of new knowledge, where in the past the untruth was being established as fact by Eurob(i)ased views of the world during the renaissance and the industrial age, and that being that the term "Negroe" or "Black" used as a definition for the "homegrown sub-saharan" African, must be DEEMED unsubstantiated, unscientifical and biologically incorrect. This definition of "Blacks" in referrence to the peoples of sub-saharan Africa or their descendents should be banned from here on out.
There are sources available which are less questionable and more accurate such as the ancient Greecs traveljournals, they did never put much emphasis on race. The Greeks described breefly the appearance of the peoples they encountered Herodotus for example. Than the Arabics like El Mas'udi a highly praised Archeological scholar (although I wouldn't trust the translation made by the English and French in the 19th century, because their view was already tainted by economics and the slavetrade). Al Mas'udi is the first and only one, up till the 20th century as far as I am concerned, who observed in a scientifical nonpartial way and recorded amongst others, early CE purely African cultured Civilizations (which formarly was said to haven been build by the Arabs) I have nothing against the Arabs but those cities where there and thriving long befor Al Mas'udi arrived and saw (as he himself attests). You could also do an extensive research an try to study some of the different peoples living in Africa(Fulani, Dogon, Zagawe, Oromo, Ibo, Ife Yoruba, Massai, Ashanti/Akan,Zanj or waq waq or mende, Touareg, Amazight to name a few) and register their beliefsystem comparing them to one another and than you can start to call yourself a little educated on Africa. Untill then I think it best for you to reckonise your lack of knowledge and look to the more venerated and lamented scholars and writers. Reed Basil Davidsons Lost cities of Africa, that would be a good start!
We got to get some people in here who have the knowledge to tell other people about who every distinguishable group within Africa is. I think Eurocentrism shouldn't be allowed in this page. It is almost blasphomy.
It's an interesting issue that keeps coming up. How is it that White people think they have the right to Africans and their history? Good for a debate from a psychological viewpoint on Eurocentrism. And if you don't stop the stupendous remarks on Anthe Diop I am going to go to WIKI-White-people and start my Afrocentric entry. And than I'll put you on trial. Got it? Good. -- Glynn71 11:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Karenga said something about we try to clean up an ugly toilet and b proud of it.(nigger etc) I agree with black as a non-white racial grouping, that film by shahadah got me editing on wiki so i cant flaw the attempt at something new. these opinions r refreshing at worst, revolutionary at best. never understood the difference between negro and black still confused-- HalaTruth(????) 13:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no need for so many separate sections in this article, especially since some of the sections are very short. Some of the separations seem arbitrary. Many of these short sections should be merged together with similar topics under a common heading. Spylab 12:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Cut it up too many topics it was better b4-- HalaTruth(????) 14:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Let us avoid POV in the lead and controversies in the lead. Social construct is a plausible hypothesis but it has not come full circle yet. We can mention it in the body as one of the leading theories but let us not force readers to believe that it is a social construct as some people do not believe it is a social construct. I have included dictionary referenced from both british and american english. These are the foremost authorities on the language so can serve as a starting point for the definition.
to some black is nothing more than skin color and has nothing to do with opression, or civil rights or politics. I go back to the four year old. He may not even know what racism or discrimination is but he knows black and white. User:Muntuwandi 20:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
the dict quote doesnt belong in the lead because it outshadows other defs. almost like giving undue weight to it as an authority. Leave the diction like all other sources in their correct place. It cannot be in the lead.-- HalaTruth(????) 21:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
From purely a linguistic perspective the dictionary has authority. I acknowledge that this article is looking into more than linguistics. The point is the mainstream view of black people is reflected in how it is used in everyday language. there are other definitions as well including the social construct hypothesis. User:Muntuwandi 22:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
That is the reason I included both the oxford and the American dictionary. Oxford uses historical literature as part of the basis for its definitions so is less biased. Every wikipedian has a personal preference for their definition of black people. In order to avoid a tug of war of definitions based on personal experiences we should take into accout what the dictionary says. Some believe black has nothing to do with africa and yet all the dictionaries clearly say so.
User:Muntuwandi
23:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
the differences between the term black, african, negro are purely academic and for everyday use are practically the same. Negro is just an exotic latinization of the word black. Yes black and african are the same however it is the exception that proves the rule are the case of the melanesians and australoids. According to the single origin hypothesis
. The australoids and melanesians branched off earlier in the human migration somewhere in Asia, possibly in India, and headed south towards australia around 70000 years ago. The other groups headed North and East to populate Europe and Asia. The sea levels were low at the time so Island hopping was easier. As the Ice caps melted rising sea levels submerged most of the land in between asia and australia and thus the melanesians and australoids were cut off and remained essentially isolated for the next 65000 years. This is the reason why australoids are genetically closer to asians as the branched off from the main asian group first, somewhere possibly in India or Arabia. However as the australoids and melanesians remained isolated for 65000 years, it is believed they closely resemble the original africans who first migrated out of africa 80000 years ago. User:Muntuwandi 00:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
the melanesians and negritos and australoids went to populate australia and surounding Islands. at the time asia was connected to australia coz the oceans were low. but when the oceans rose australia was cut off from asia. These melanesians remained cut off from their asian cousins for 65000 years and did not receive any new genes to modify their appearance. This unlike europeans and asians who had plenty of genetic exchange to modify there appearance. so the melanesians look very similar to how they were when they left africa 80000 years ago but are still more closely related to asians and europeans because they branched off from the same group.
In summary the first people to leave africa were black. This is why melanesians are black skinned User:Muntuwandi 02:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
. If you look at the map you can see that the khoisan live below the tropic of capricorn, this is why they have light skin. but this was not always the case. the khoisan used to occupy almost all of central and southern africa. And actually the article says nilotics such as the Maasai in North and eastern Africa are descendents of the Khoisan. This means the khoisan were probably dark skinned when they lived in central africa. The Khoisan were only pushed south by the Bantu migration which is believed to have started in Nigeria. The bantus had a different culture, the used agriculture, and were more warlike than the hunter gatherer bushmen. There was some assimilation and elements of bushmen culture and language are evident all over central and southern africa.
Even though the melanesians lived in a climate similar to africa what is startling is the similarity of other phenotypical features. for instance of all the peoples of the world only melanesians, negritos and africans have wolly hair. Many south indians can be as dark as africans but they still have the caucasoid type hair. User:Muntuwandi 04:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
User:Muntuwandi 05:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
it was the Nokthat did the Iron thing, the thing is the Afrocentrics are reacting to the horrors of racism that the Eurocentrics created. They wouldnt b a need for Afrocentrics if the stink of racism wasnt so strong. According to Euro, either Africa got it from Europe, copied it from the North or are some half Arab group thus crediting the 1/2 arab genes for any scripts, sculptures and civilization. Well yes Nubia built this and that, but they were not SUb-Saharan they have causcoid (spell) skulls.-- HalaTruth(????) 13:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
but europeans relied so heavily on other cultures. where we are today is the sum total of the interdependence of many cultures. Eventually all technology still finds its way back to africa. for four thousand years the tallest structure in the world was in the pyramid of giza in africa. User:Muntuwandi 13:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
100 things about black people they will delete i am sure. but i think politics are strange if everything is Africa or as the above 21/4 person NOthing is African. It must mean without saying it Africans are primitive. what other conclusion do these academics expect us to have.And this is Oxford.-- HalaTruth(????) 14:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The first explorers in East Africa wrote that they were shocked by the nudity, paganism, cannibalism, and poverty of the natives. Some claimed Blacks had the nature "of wild animals... most of them go naked... the child does not know his father, and they eat people." Another claimed they had a natural sense of rhythm so that if a Black "were to fall from heaven to earth he would beat time as he goes down." A few even wrote books and made paintings of Africans with over-sized sex organs. Sound familiar? All just a reflection of racism? Maybe so, but these examples are not from 19th Century European colonialists or KKK hate literature. They come from the Muslim Arabs who first entered Black Africa over 1,200 years ago (in the 700s), as detailed in Bernard Lewis's 1990 book, Race and Slavery in the Middle East. Several hundred years later, European explorers had the same impressions. They wrote that Africans seemed to have a very low intelligence and few words to express complex thoughts. They praised some tribes for making fine pottery, forging iron, carving wooden art, and making musical instruments. But more often, they were shocked by the near nakedness of the people, their poor sanitary habits, simple houses, and small villages. They found no wheels for making pots, grinding corn, or for transport, no farm animals, no writing, no money, and no numbering systems. The Whites who explored China were just as racist as those who explored Africa, but their descriptions were different from what they and the Arabs had written about Africans. In 1275 Marco Polo arrived in China from his native Italy to open trade with the Mongol Empire. He found that the Chinese had well built roads, bridges, cities connected by canals, census takers, markets, standardized weights and measures, and not only coins, but paper money as well. Even a postal system was in existence. All of these made him marvel when he compared the Chinese to what he saw in Europe and the Middle East. Even though he was an Italian, proud of his people and well aware of the greatness of Ancient Rome, Marco Polo wrote: "Surely there is no more intelligent race on earth than the Chinese." Historical research bears out Marco Polo's impressions. As early as 360 B.C., the Chinese used the cross bow and changed the face of warfare. Around 200-100 B.C., the Chinese used written exams to choose people for the civil service, two thousand years before Britain. The Chinese used printing about 800 A.D., some 600 years before Europe saw Gutenberg's first Bible. Paper money was used in China in 1300, but not in Europe until the 19th and 20th centuries. By 1050 Chinese chemists had made gunpowder, hand grenades, fire arrows, and rockets of oil and poison gas. By 1100, factories in China with 40,000 workers were making rockets. Flame throwers, guns, and cannons were used in China by the 13th century, about 100 years before Europe. The Chinese used the magnetic compass as early as the 1st century. It is not found in European records until 1190. In 1422, seventy years before Columbus's three small ships crossed the Atlantic, the Chinese reached the east coast of Africa. They came in a great fleet of 65 ocean going ships filled with 27,000 soldiers and their horses, and a year's supply of grain, meat, and wine. With their gunpowder weapons, navigation, accurate maps and magnetic compasses, the Chinese could easily have gone around the tip of Africa and "discovered" Europe![ [33]] Iseebias
If rushton is so racist why do we even quote him in the article. User:Muntuwandi 14:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC) u need to see blacks fail the civilization test then they say we are paranoid.-- HalaTruth(????) 15:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes africans were semi nude, It was the garden of eden. the word Paganism should now be discredited because all it means is "any religion other than my own". Africans have always been a very spiritual and mystical people. This is the reason why African American churches have always been more lively than white churches. The success of african american gospel music can thus be traced to ancient african spiritual tradions and songs.
The asian people are the most sucessful population wise. 60 % of the worlds population is in Asia. My personal view is not to use technology as the only means of judging society. If africans survived for 200, 000 years without technology why should we judge them.
I don't think Rushton's racist. He's describing the history of racism in a chapter about the history of race & racism. I doubt he's racist because he's not claiming his race is the most intelligent. In fact he argues caucasoids are a mediocre race. Orientals superior in intellect & social order, blacks superior in personality, sexuality, athleticism, rhythm etc, and Whites in the middle on every important dimension. Many credible people have defended Rushton:
Harvard biologist E.O. Wilson (one of the two co-founders of the r/K selection theory Rushton's racial model references) came to Rushton's defense:“I think Phil is an honest and capable researcher. The basic reasoning by Rushton is solid evolutionary reasoning; that is, it is logically sound. If he had seen some apparent geographic variation for a non-human species__a species of sparrow or sparrow hawk for, example__no one would have batted an eye.” But, Wilson added, even though society should be able to “handle” most areas of sociobiological debate, “when it comes to [human] racial differences, especially in the inflamed situation in this country, special safeguards and conventions need to be developed.” [14]
And even science journalist and Ruston critic Peter Knudson admitted:
Despite the occasional media stereotype of Rushton as some sort of incompetent scientific adventurist, he has throughout most of his career as a psychologist been seen as a highly competent researcher. He has published more than 100 papers, most of them, particularly those dealing with altruism, in highly respectable journals. [15]
Also even if Rushton is racist, I think it's important that for the article to be complete we know how black people are defined from a Eurocentric perspective, especially since Eurocentric ideas are what affect blacks in every day life. It's important for black readers to get a full understanding of how blackness is defined, not just Afrocentric sources that dominate the article Iseebias
yes i remember being nude in Eden 4 real. It is Eurocentric, to discuss intellegence from a place that fits them. Like ants judging us by there standards and saying "we conclude they are stupid" they cant chew grass like us. Why dont they judge civilization on not pissing in the bath tub you r in. we dont have no more whales, we dont have no more ozone, we runing out of trees, all the elephants are gone, the fish are dead. the birds stop flying, the polar caps are melting, man marry men, racism is everywhere, they bomb peoples countries, children slap their moms--IS THIS CIVILIZATION!!!-- HalaTruth(????) 15:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
In a lexicographic analysis, philosophy professor Lansana Keita noted that the word "black", "negro", and "African race" are all defined in terms of one another and can be regarded as logically equivalent [17] Although the earliest known references of the English word "black" with reference to African descent were in the year 1400 [18], the use of the "color" black as a metaphor for Africans may be as old as recorded history. J. Phillipe Rushton writes "in 1200 B.C. the Egyptians of the Nineteenth Dynasty painted polychromatic human figures on the walls of their royal tombs depicting peoples of different skin color and hair form: red (Egyptians), yellow (Asiatic and Semitic), black (sub-Saharan African), and white (western and Northern European, also shown with blue eyes and blond beards)" [19].
This research is projecting, Egyptian never said this, the drawing is being understood by a biased whiteman. Ethiopians make the same distinction between them and the Nihlots. furthermore Egyptians used skin colors different. Many photo of A Egyptians show all colors being used. I would also question who re-painted the image. Ohh U didnt know Europeans repainted stuff? chopped off noses? Further more the article is about Black people this is about someone modern comprehension of a past empire that had no concept of black people or sub-Africa. And it has undue weight being so high in the article.See how they also painted King Tut in jet black, and that Dog God he was black as well. Dont think Black paint meant Black skin.-- HalaTruth(????) 22:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
the map is wrong, ask yourself the question, is the desert smaller or bigger now than in history? Start there. The San are very light skin, if u c them in real life it is shocking. I dont know why deserts produce this because deserts r hot. But u dont only get light people in the deserts see Australia. i think something else is at work. sea level is another factor. Eurocentrism had 2 change to avoid looking silly. Remeber when they were white white white now they say "we know they werent white they were Arab" because too much info is out there, so now they say they were" brown" not "black" and they use that img to say "c they werent black people" but a dif race (but they know thy looked like ET poeple_so now u c the link Y ET has to be less black, is a historical clean up.-- HalaTruth(????) 03:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The article in its current form seems quite unstructured and is difficult to navigate through. There is some useful information in the article but one does not know how to find it. The contents or index of a well written article should flow and tell a story by itself. some titles need to also be simplified or made more relevant. for instance "Black vs Multiracial" could be a boxing match. The current contents look like this.
Contents
* 1 African ancestry perspective o 1.1 Sub-Saharan Africa debate o 1.2 Black vs. multiracial + 1.2.1 The Americas # 1.2.1.1 One drop rule # 1.2.1.2 Reverse one drop rule + 1.2.2 South Africa o 1.3 Black as a controversial ethnic term o 1.4 Afrocentric perspective o 1.5 Emphasis on racial classifications o 1.6 Biblical perspective * 2 Dark skin and appearance perspective * 3 Population information and distribution * 4 Gallery * 5 Footnotes * 6 See also
this is what I propose
Contents
* 1 Proposed structure o 1.1 lead o 1.2 race o 1.3 Human skin color o 1.4 Regional definitions o 1.5 africa= + 1.5.1 South Africa o 1.6 US + 1.6.1 one drop rule o 1.7 Latin america + 1.7.1 brazil o 1.8 Oceania o 1.9 Other o 1.10 racism + 1.10.1 the bible
dravidans, french, irish etc
User:Muntuwandi 05:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The structure you propose is not bad, but I don't think it's enough of an improvement to justify all the effort, especially when the article has finally stabalized. Also it doesn't provide a space for major debates like the Sahara desert debate, nor does it provide a space for the general comments in the dark skin color perspective that can't be pigeon-holed into 1 region or another. And the whole concept of regional variation is misleading because in some case we are talking about how different regions define blackness, and in other cases we're talking about whether people FROM different regions can be defined as black. It also draws attention away from the primary debate: Is blackness defined by African ancestry or is blackness defined by dark skin? Iseebias
I think the article is stable not because it is in good condition but I think many editors are tired of edit wars. Yes there is still more information that can be added to the proposed layout. As this article has many editors anyone can place a section in the middle at the top etc. While the information may be cited and relevant without a decent layout the article becomes a structureless construction of data. User:Muntuwandi 14:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the article is broke. There is a disconnect between the titles and the information in their sections
Finally the word "perspective" is quite ubiquitous.
I think social constructionism is more relevant in complex multicultural countries like the US, Brazil and South Africa than it is in more homogeneous places like nigeria. That is why I propose bit more breakdown in to regions. My main issues are on the organization of the article not so much with the content. With poor organization we may end up mentioning the same point several times in different sections thus cluttering the article. Issues regarding definitions should be found in on place. Something unique to the US in one place. Scientific issues in one place etc User:Muntuwandi 18:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
File:Sadat5.jpg(sorry pls make smaller) Sadat is a Black man by some definitions. We need to add Black and Arab into this article and discuss Sudan and the so-called Arabs. Lets take sometime as oppose to moving stuff around actually develop more debate and content on the racial issue of African Arabs. Sadat and Tibbu Tipp being 2 good starting points about Blacks who are not Black due to reverse rule in Arabia. iSSEBias seems 2 like wiki research so y not develop this?-- HalaTruth(????) 19:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Please delete Bobby Jindal's image. He is a Punjabi and of Aryan Descent. He is more Caucasiann than an Arab mixed with Negro Blood!