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Hetep and Respect Good Spirit, The first word in recorded history to describe Blackness is a burnt piece of wood. This Metu Neter glyph is translated as the letters km. A piece of bread is added "t" and the symbol for nation to make the Name of Classical African Civilization, Kmt (Kemet) or the land of the Black people.
See the Kemetic (Egyptian) word for Black and Black people. You can find a detailed explanation in my book "The What Makes You Black, Blook". You will find the details with the metu neter (pictographs) in the appendix.
This takes place thousands of years before the first Greek writes a book. This article should be updated to reflect the fact that the Word Black was first written by Black people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aunk ( talk • contribs) 18:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
Alun the "other black background" on the british census is also only for people of African ancestry. The fact that a tiny % are from Oceania means nothing. There are people of African ancestry who live in Oceania. Enough with the original research.
In any event it's clear that there's a narrow definition of what it means to be black and a broad definition, just like there's a narrow definition of what a lizard is, and broad definition (anything that looks kind of like a lizard including a crocodile and a dinosaur). Encyclopedias tend to focus on precise definitions so that's what we'd like to do with this article. There's another article for teh broad defenition of black. Timelist 18:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
So what do we know about these "Black Other"? We know that most describe their ethnic identity as Black British, and that the vast majority were born in the UK (79%). That's all we know about them, they do not describe their descent at all, they just tell us where they were born and what their ethnic group is (Black Other and Black British mainly). We can assume they do not identify as Black Caribbean or Black African as they did not choose this option. You are claiming these people as of recent African descent, maybe a lot of them are, I don't know, but neither do you, and yet you claim to know this as a fact. How do you know this? Alun 20:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)For more than eight in ten (84 per cent) of those in the Other Black group, an ethnic group description was specified in the text box on the census form. The majority (63 per cent) specified a ‘Black British’ ethnic identity (Figure 4.2). A further 13 per cent were coded to a ‘Black Mixed’ group, indicating mixed ethnicity where both or all ethnicities described are from different black groups. A ‘Black British’ identity was even stronger among Other Blacks born in the UK. Three quarters (74 per cent) of the Other Black group born in the UK specified a ‘Black British’ identity. The proportion was similar for those over 16 years old (75 per cent) and those under 16 (72 per cent), most of whom will have had their ethnic identity written in by a parent.
Timelist, so your preferred definition is the lizard, and everyone else who disagrees with you merely makes a case that looks like a lizard. I do not see the validity of that simplictic analogy. -- Ezeu 18:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
You're never gonna convince me that Indians (or at least some) are black people. Didn't anyone ever see Mississippi Masala?-- 4.245.206.43 02:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
No offense, but I think that the introductory paragraph is again migrating towards a bit of bias and also some inaccessible English. Here is my suggested replacement:
This article is about the different definitions of the phrase "black people". To see the article about the African American use of this phrase, see
Black people (US meaning).
Black people is a term that usually refers to various dark-skinned people.
[1] "Black people" are also known as blacks. There is no universally agreed-upon definition for who is "black". "Black" can be a racial, ethnic, societal or cultural classification. A variety of racial, socio-political, lexical, and biological factors can influence the definition of a "black person". Some argue that the term should be reserved exclusively for dark-skinned people of recent African ancestry in certain parts of the world.
[2] However, some argue that this definition is inaccurate since it excludes
Negritos and
Australoids and other dominantly dark-skinned groups.
That is not perfect, but at least it is a proposal to argue over. I would then suggest that another article discussing the African American point of view be produced. It would have to feature both the restrictive view and have links to more general views. However, there are already hundreds of articles written from the more general viewpoint on Wikipedia, so this should not be hard to flesh it out properly so as not to claim that ALL African Americans support a definition of
which many seem to want to push for. -- Filll 21:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
We can keep the reference to Negritos and Australoids, as long as we do it in a way that does not step too hard on someone else's toes. In fact I would like to include them so that people can understand what we are hinting at actually.-- Filll 21:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but I can't accept a bias in the introduction that states that Black people is usually used for people with a recent African origin. This is not true. In some parts of the world it's true, but not everywhere. I also don't understand what is particularly "not neutral" about the word "exclusive". Exclusive simply means "only". So if it's exclusively people of African descent it just means the same as not including people of any non-recent African descent. If this is what you mean then how is it POV to say it? It's just accurate that's all. I don't get how it can be neutral to keep saying that "African descent"="Black", now you want to say it in the introduction, or at least imply that this is the "usual" or "normal" usage everywhere in the world.
Alun
21:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I tried to include all comments and make a version. I also tried to clean up the English a bit.-- Filll 07:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I forgot to add, if anyone tries, like children in a candy store who cant get what they want, go and start another black people article i will make sure it is deleted. This is not a forum, our a country club, this is not a playground for "I dont want to play with you so i will go and get my own friends." Their is only one "black people" and the article should be of Encyclopedic content, reflective, diverse in world view, baka! or i will go and start creating new sections called Israel--My version of it, USA my version of it and on and on, the entire wikipedia should be balanced, i.e what is true for one section must be true for all. I would like to take this time to say thanks to all the European contributions to this site, as you know Africans have no yet been able to define themselevs and we still need your help. I am serious about the last bit, this is the legacy of enslavement.-- Halaqah 08:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Message to Timelist, I dont come here often enough to know who is who, (I know a few of my big time enemies come here). I have just observed some of the incorrect edits you are doing and must ask you to stop, It is not going to give you victory, why are you doing it. Is it fair? Is it fair for your American POV to be a WORLD POV. have u been to Fiji and other countries where non-African people identify as being of a "black" race. Furthermore many people in the world were called black by Europeans. Almost everyone became black. Imagine if a Jewish person said suffering and genocide and Holocaust only referred to them--is it right? Stop causing trouble. I think the intro accommodates your POV, and if I had anything to say about it the intro wouldn’t so be happy for what they have given you and be a broader thinking human being. I know how you feel, cuz if they start saying African means White South Africans I would flip. But black really doesnt only apply to African, trust me my friend most African never call themeselves black. Go to Niger, or Timbuktu, or Gonder and see if you hear the word black people.-- Halaqah 13:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It is true that we do not really know who is who and how many there are. The falangists might be all one person. Many of the "African Americans" might also be one person. Or maybe just 2 or 3. Maybe splitting the article will not help. Splitting it would not negate the need to make at least one general article, even if the general article is a disambiguation page. Now of course everyone is fighting over who gets to have the simple "black people" article. Let's take a look at how many people we are talking about:
We know that not ALL African Americans agree with the restrictive viewpoint, since many have a global viewpoint. I believe Editingoprah has a global viewpoint and is a self-identified African American. We known from Halaqah who is our only self-identified African that not all Africans share this view, and maybe no Africans. I know that very few if any Australian Aborigines share the view. We do not know about the others. Certainly some in South Asia use the term for political purposes (DALIT: THE BLACK UNTOUCHABLES OF INDIA, THIRD EDITION, by V.T. Rajshekar ISBN: 0-932863-05-1, 124 pp., illus., 1995, $9.95) and possibly for other reasons. There are over 160 million Dalits in India. However, it is fairly clear that the perspective that
leaves out very large groups of people who have other views, even those with dark skin who self-identify as black. I would not say a group of 230,000 Aborigines is a trivial number. How many Dalits call themselves black? I am not sure what else to suggest but maybe some intervention of outside editors.-- Filll 13:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I think from what FILL said above I sign off on this debate, it is beyond argument, 40 million are called black and even more in Austrailia and Oceania, like Fiji etc. I dont want to be a "thats it" but i think the point is 100% accurate and the debate should be closed. Too much evidence supports that black people is not only for Africans. I even heard an Italian women calling a dark Italian black. I have seen no supporting evidence for why only AA are black, NONE! or are they denying the entire history of Indians being called black by the Bristish? -- Halaqah 15:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that I was mistaken. We also have Ezeu who is a self-identified black African. I fear I am incorrect about Editingoprah and the sock puppets.-- Filll 15:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The following is a personal view only, I used no references, or encyclopedic content, do what u will with this contribution. Here's my two cents:
I am an African-Canadian, son of Jamaican immigrants who sought Canada as their place to better their lives and the lives of their children. I initially logged into this 'black people' page to find out more about black people across the globe and their history, struggles as a minority. 'Black people' are all over the world, a minority in Russia, Korea,Europe, Mexico, Central and South America. I was and still seek knowledge of the plight of Blacks all over the world, Canada, U.S. and the other nations I mentioned.
To get back to the point, the terms black and African to describe a community, are problematic. Let's say you use the term 'black', who is defined as such. Many 'blacks' can easily pass for whites or caucasian, Mariah Carey,(as pointed out in an e.g.), the other problem is black as defined in the dictionary is defined very negatively, as evil etc., and not every one likes the term assigned to them. The 3rd problem, most people who call themselves black aren't black they're brown at best ( a silly point, possibly but true nonetheless. The good thing about the term 'Black',in the seventies became a call to self-pride for many in America, (and more than likely across the world), a call to build a united community that supported its needs through Blacks supporting their businesses, working together to build safer, stronger communities etc. That's why I like the term 'Black', in the sense of racial pride.
African is term I also use, I firmly believe that many if not all blacks (possibly all of humanity) originated from Africa. Many people I speak to have no allegiance to Africa as a number of Africans (those I've spoken to) view us as exiles, not worth working with and not true Africans. Many people reject the African term and have allegiance only to the nations of their birth I am Jamaican, or American first. A viewpoint that I think is foolish especially unless you are from a nation where blacks are the majority, you more than likely have suffered more hate from your fellow countrymen who view you as a lesser being than a fellow Brit, Canadian or American.
The sad thing, there are terms used to describe us, some less than flattering which I refuse to use myself. Negro is the lesser of the evils, but I've hated the term. It's a definition dumped on us not one I believe we chose for ourselves. Negro, Negroid, I just hate the term.
Which makes this whole debate very confusing, the attempt was to have an entry to define a group that exists all over the world, It is necessary to have info about blacks all over the world not just in Africa or the usual suspects, not an easy feat of course but worth investigating. To help aid myself or others in that search for information terms had to be selected. Should we squabble over the term black or african when we ourselves have trouble figuring out how we identify ourselves ? I have heard of no term that would satisfy me, so if any one can think of one, please let's hear it. That's my two cents. Darkrider30 04:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC)darkrider30
Someone just included the phrase
which I think is pretty funny.-- Filll 14:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It's amazing how much hatred there is for peoples of rescent sub-Saharan African ancestry on wikipedia. It seems we're the only ethnicity on earth that's being denied the right to an article about ourselves using our own ethnic termonlogy despite the fact that this termonology is officially recognized by numerous governments.
So we have editors like Wobble and Fill who want to create a ridiculous article listing all the people in history who have ever been called black by anyone ever regardless of whether the term was used in an ethnic context or not. As a result these editors are transforming the article into an incoherent mess and disrespecting peoples of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry in the process. Timelist 15:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Timelist you r correct in part, African people have zero voice in their agency (to quote) but I am African, I am not American, My ancestors are listed in the Kebra Negust and we dont/didnt call ourselves black, I am not a coconut or a clown. Many Hausa and Ethiopian never use this word, actually most African dont save SA. And not only Near African or whatever are called black. Your voice is in the article u need to browe wikipedia and see the real racism going on, this site here is actually one of the better examples of plurality--TRUST ME BRO, this is mild compared to other parts, its a war in some zones for African agency.-- Halaqah 15:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Suspected Sockpuppets of Editingoprah:
Take a look at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Editingoprah.M This is one person who has been harassing other users here for months and months and ignoring mediation attempts. We have a problem.-- Filll 16:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Also please take a look at this Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Editingoprah.-- Filll 16:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Now that I have skimmed the Mediation case ( Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-08-08 Black people) I see that we have a much bigger problem than I realized. Editingoprah and his or her sock puppets have been causing problems for a long long time. I think that if Editingoprah/Kobrakid/Timelist etc does not want to adopt their own article to edit and leave this one alone, we should get them barred from this article. It is clear that they have had some sort of crazy irrational agenda for many months that no one else agrees with. I am sorry to sound so harsh but that is what it looks like to me. I should have realized this sooner.-- Filll 14:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Crazy/irrational agenda huh? So people of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry wanting an article about our own unique ethnicity (as recognized by the census of many governments) using our own ethnic termonology is a crazy irrational agenda? Yes I gues it is pretty crazy and irrational for us to expect the same respect as every other ethnic group. Timelist 16:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Crazy/irrational agenda huh? So people of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry wanting an article about our own unique ethnicity (as recognized by the census of many governments) using our own ethnic termonology is a crazy irrational agenda? Yes I gues it is pretty crazy and irrational for us to expect the same respect as every other ethnic group. Timelist 16:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
That perhaps 90% of the trouble at this page is the cause of one user with multiple accounts harassing others and engaging in disruptive behavior. I think the time has come to come to grips with this. All efforts for at least 6 months have gone nowhere. Many editors have given up in disgust. Tons of material was flushed down the toilet. All so one editor can rant and rave and threaten and throw tantrums and charge others with racism. This is too much. Even when I tried to get them to create a separate page with their own agenda, they wanted this one instead. And were not at all constructive. It is not as though black and African people and African Americans have no pages. There are literally hundreds. And this person does not want to contribute but just fight others and waste time and energy and be destructive. And their edits are usually stilted awful English. I am not even convinced any more that this person is truely African American or a person of color, but an outside agitator trying to cause trouble and damage to the article. This person is working at cross purposes to people of color, and might even be like the falangists, just trying to cause disruption to keep these articles from being written.-- Filll 17:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Timelist, Black people are not an ethnic group.
Then why are they an ethnic origin category on the U.S. census?
There are hundreds of ethnic groups in sub Saharan Africa, to lump them all together as a single ethnic group is extremely offensive to them.
But it's not offensive to lump all the dark skinned people of the world into 1 category?
These different ethnic groups do exist, have you not heared about Rwanda and the genocide there? Do you seriously think that Black people of recent African descent form a single ethnic group? African Americans are a different ethnic group to West Indians who are different again to all African groups.
There are ethnic groups within ethnic groups. The popular argument is that there are many tribes of Native Americans but that doesn't change the fact that Native Americans are still a coherent ethnicity.
You are also being unfair, you want to repeat the African diaspora article as a "Black people" article. The only reason I can think of for doing this is that you cannot accept any other POV than your own.
I have no problem with other POVs. But the word black has more than one legitimate meaning. My ethnicity (recent sub-Saharan African ancestry) is as legitimate as any other ethnicity and I have as much of a right to an article about my ethnicity as any other ethnicity does. Why are you resisting the right of my ethnicity to have an article (under the terms we choose)? Why are you telling me my ethnicity doesn't exist? True, black also refers to dark skin, but "white" also refers to light skin, yet your ethnicity is still allowed its own article.
I am really angry about this. There are Black people who are discriminated against because of the colour of their skin all over the world.
There's more to being black than experiencing discrimination. Being discriminated against has nothing to do with being black, it's just an unfortunate byproduct. Why does it make you angry to see people of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry assert their identity. We're recognized as Black by the U.S. census and we'd like an article reflecting this fact. Timelist 17:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Because you are one person with the better part of a dozen sockpockets who has caused repeated chaos here. After 6 months or more of hostility on the article, enough is enough. I offered you the opportunity to make your own article. You rejected it and want to take this one over. No more. No one else agrees with you. Face the facts. It is you against about 20 or 30 or more other editors. -- Filll 17:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Timlist, no one is deying you the right to be black, but the right to monopolise a term that is used to self-identify, or to refer to a variety of people. If you need more arguments against your views, I refer you to page 1 of this discussion and the almost total consensus against you. -- Ezeu 17:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The basic problem is not that "black people" has the meaning you claim or not. The problem comes with trying to stamp out other meanings.-- Filll 18:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes. See Wikipedia:Content forking.
POV forks usually arise when two or more contributors disagree about the content of an article or other page, and instead of resolving that disagreement, someone creates another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) to be developed according to their personal views rather than according to consensus. This second article is known as a "POV fork" of the first. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major Points of View on a certain subject should be treated in one article. As Wikipedia does not view article forking as an acceptable solution to disagreements between contributors, such forks may be nominated for deletion.
Alun 18:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The discussion page is very large so much that it is easy to lose track of what the various propositions are. And also who supports what. here are a few things I have picked out.
See Timelist? This is what happens when you get people sufficiently annoyed by your tactics. They lose the willingness to cooperate with you. You get a bad name. I think that a case can be made to have two articles, particularly if this one is made general to be about ALL people called black or who self-identify as black, either now or in the past. The ethnic article has to be done very carefully. I do think that there is some sort of generalized "ethnic" or "cultural" argument that is broader than African American but not as broad as BLack people, so that ethnic article would fit in an intermediate niche. Here is a sort of diagram showing what I imagine:
|<----------------Black people-------------------->|
|<-------------Black people (ethnicity)---->|
|<---African American--->|<--African people--------------->|
This is not quite correct, because of mulattos and other complications. But is approximate. I think that Timelist can make a successful argument, but he must give up the notion of fighting with everyone and anyone who he thinks wants to use the name he personally wants to reserve for his own personal definition, ignoring the world outside the US, ignoring African Americans with a global perspective and ignoring history.-- Filll 21:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I have had several reasons for suggesting more articles for months. One of the reasons is that there is too much material for one article. If it was repetitious to have that other article, I would agree that we should only have one article. But it is not repetitious. I also think that we can accommodate more viewpoints more easily with this article. Just fighting we do not move forward. If we can allow another article and not fight, then that is helpful. Also, if you look at the list of articles on this area, we have several hundred already. So if we have another one, so what? It does no harm. Also, we have to recognize that given their wealth, African Americans have more influence on Wikipedia and the internet than Africa or other places. This might be unfair, but it is reality. This accommodates that reality. It might not be the best reason, but it is true.-- Filll 22:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The discussion is too long, I havent bothered to read it. So excuse me if I'm repeating someone. I think Black people (ethnicity) should be renamed to Sub-Saharan African People, which is defined as people who are of "recent" Sub Saharan Ancestry...
This Black People article should be about black skinned people who are mainly Sub-Saharan Africans and Native Ocenians... Lukas19 23:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
But there are many people in the US who look very white that are called black. People who have maybe 1/128th or 1/256th African ancestry. So it is not really dark skinned.-- Filll 23:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
No it is not about dark skin. It USUALLY about dark skin, but it is not about dark skin (no skin is black). I agree that the Sahara is not a great barrier. It is rough at best. And there are lots of white African immigrants and Indian and Chinese Africans that live south of the Sahara.-- Filll 23:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at the map. It makes perfect sense. North Africans arent considered black, but they are "brown". So African People can not be a substitude for Black People in Timelist's sense. And Black Africans sounds funny...So sub-Saharan African People makes sense to me... Lukas19 23:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Lots of people north of that boundary on your map are VERY dark skinned. So it is more complicated. And Black Africa is a term that is often used, but I do not think we have an article on it. Besides which we have one editor here who does not like that term.-- Filll 23:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Unless it is defined very carefully, this is probably true. It is not really a US ethnicity, but a US-defined ethnic category.-- Filll 00:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I think Canada probably absorbs most of this from the US. After all, most of the Blacks in Canada are there because Canada was the terminus of the Underground Railroad. There are some there because of being recent Commonwealth immigrants and some there because they are descendents from the very few black slaves in Canada before the British Empire outlawed slavery. But most come from the US. And most of the culture in this regard is imported from the US. Canada is culturally dominated by the US to a large degree.-- Filll 00:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
But if you try to pare the definition in that way, you will end up getting killed with charges of a fork. You can get away with it if you claim this is a US based thing and part of US culture. But only by a hair. You still might get nuked. If you try to shove Afro Argentinians etc in , aside from just a tangential mention, you will get your article killed.-- Filll 00:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure that people will give up this article as the general article, but an alternative name for one of the general articles might be " Who is black?", parallel to the article " Who is a Jew?".-- Filll 09:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been busy with other things for a while. Coming back after a few days I find lots of confusion, and odd support from the OED and the "canonical" dictionary of Chinese that was first put together not long after the Chinese deposed the Manchurians for defining Australians with Africans. The view has more merit than I would ever have believed before seeing the research of Wells et al., but just picking two groups as "most related" because of skin color denies the objective research of Wells and others.
I would like to see an article that began with the putative earliest Homo sapiens sapiens population in Africa and showed, within the confines of the African continent, how the San, the Mbuti, the East Africans, the Bantu, the Nilio-Saharan, and the West Africans relate to each other, but also relate to groups with whom they are in closest geographic and social contact, the Berbers, the Sardinians... and I don't see the Egyptians mentioned on the Cavalli-Sforza square chart, but they and the Arabs should probably be included as well, not as core populations but as peripheral populations that have diverged themselves and perhaps have brought some outside diversity back to Africa.
Once we have that article (which we might call something like "African people" meaning people with (fuzzily) "all" (almost all) their family history occuring on the continent of AFrica and adjacent areas (Arab peninsula, and, for historical/genetic reasons the island of Sardinia), it would be easier to talk about the diaspora and give groups such as the Australian aboriginal population and the African Americans a clear position related to what we have already established as the historical and geographical center.
To carry out this kind of an organization we need to be cognizant of existing article, and perhaps we would end up tailoring them to fit a more global picture than has been presented previously. P0M 01:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
One general suggestion: If we decide what groups to make articles about, how to define those groups most elegantly, etc., it will then be relatively easy to find names for them. We are now stuck on names that people want to us and then running into trouble when there are as many definitions for the names as there are contributors. P0M 01:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
As I noted above, there are literally hundreds of articles about black and African people. There are some articles which need to be written and some which are in bad shape and need to be expanded or worked on. We have some gaps. We also need to organize the material so it is accessible. We do have to be careful not to duplicate too much and to name things appropriately. Pan-Africanism is part of a big family of articles. African American is part of a big family of articles. There are many racial articles but I do not get the impression they are too well organized yet. There is a lot on genetics, again not super well organized yet. But we could serve a valuable service by organizing this area, creating a few lead articles, filling in gaps, etc. I would propose that African people and black people be very general articles. Very wide, not too much depth. Then we can have a suite of others more in depth on various aspects. Some exist already. Some are in pretty good shape. Some need work, to be honest. But it will take a while to get a grasp on the humungous volume of stuff and figure out what is needed and where it should go.-- Filll 04:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I just remembered Timelist said everyone has a page about them, but there is African people (although i am frighten to look) and African American so that is an ethnic group, so am i missing something?-- Halaqah 10:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
black is dying, it isnt used in Africa, more and more people are moving away from it, come back in 10 years and see. The first time i realized this was with 500 years later and maulana karenga , kimani Nehusiand others where you could see the deliberate drift, and actually the film above had a big message at the end, stating Black was only a political term but we are an African people. times r changing and black like yellow people and red people is on the downslope, -- Halaqah 11:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I have added a delete tage to black people (ethnicity) or the tage should be put as merged. I think some of you may support what i have done. I have a POV at times but i am fair, and it isnt fair to run off and make new articles about your little WORLD VIEW.If i have added the tag poorly go and fix it, but i would like everyone to add their opinions on the validity of it being deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Halaqah ( talk • contribs) 11:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
This is why all structures need rules and regs because sometimes the path is difficult. I think the creation of the article is an encylopedic violation. This page is not about arguing it is about content, if more people start using wikipedia what do you think will happen, think long term, imagine more views coming here more timelist with alternative views, may an India guy comes and Creates black people only for indians, this is the problem. work with the democracy and plurality of this page--that is the solution.-- Halaqah 11:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
ethnicity: African American, Hausa, Amhara, Gurage, Oromo, Sileti, Mandingo, Wachaga, Sindi, Hindi, Han, San, Soax, black is a loose (undefined) social construction for bannding non-white ethnic groups into, black is an inclusive group while white is an exclusive.-- Halaqah 09:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been reading through it, and I think quotes from Mr.Coon or the Nation of Islam are unnesscesarry. This article is suppose to be about the black "race", and how it's defined UNIVERSALLY, not how it's defined by racist mentallities. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bélancourt ( talk • contribs) 17:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC).
I so agree about Coon, the man is a relic of an evil era, and is been given centre stage, i am sure he would be well pleased, even his Europeans contep dismiss him.NOI might be important because unlike Coon they have greatly influenced the "Black man was the first" thingie. that would be hard to ignore but Coon--joke -- Halaqah 19:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at these Americans:
Which of these famous Americans, some of whom you might recognize, would you think is black? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Filll ( talk • contribs) 04:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC). oops-- Filll 04:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Well I figured I should make it a bit more pleasant for our male editors to do this important research :) --
Filll
05:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
This is sort of a response to the list of pictures above this post. The one drop rule is an American law (which I thought was dropped out, I didn't know it was still in effect), and wouldn't apply to many other places like South Africa for example. All of them are either mixed, or have parents who are mixed.
...Another rant I hold is the use of the word "mulatto". I think it's degoratory since it originates from the word "mule", which is a mix between a Donkey and a Horse... now, which ever race you think would represent the horse, obviously noone would like to be called a donkey (based on the human characteristics associated with the animal, e.i. dumb, lazy, etc.). So if you call yourself a Mulatto, in a way, you're insulting your own parents. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
68.235.81.0 (
talk)
16:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
Mulatto like all the words i hate is a problem, word it is rarely used, not polite and should be avoided, we need to be respectful, it was a dirty word fashioned out of enslavement. multi racial heritage is far more accurate, and most people of multi racial heritage are African or racial identify with being Black people and guess what they are, because race is in your head. And anyone with enough african blood is an African, if they wanna be. Yes everyone will find something offensive but that why we need to look at the words carefully clearly looking at Mulatto and multi-ethnic background we dont need to try hard to see which one is better. Retarded or Mentally challneged. blacks or African Americans, is it just me or is African Americans a more beautiful term? that yellow person or that Chinese person? She is a Mulatto, or she an African from a multi ethnic background-- Halaqah 18:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Ezeu used the word here on the talk page. He is from Africa. It is not in the article. It might be a lousy word, but I do not want to expunge it from the encyclopedia or dictionary. I could give you a list of thousands of similar words.--18:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
So Halaqah, what is your opinion of the pictures I posted links to above? Who is black to you in that list?-- Filll 18:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Wow no one wants to try my test? Haha...I have a good point to make with that test.-- Filll 19:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Those pictures remind me of the good old days, i think i shouldnt look at them too long. I dont believe in this someone is light skin so they are less "black" or someone has narrow bone features so they are less black. Where i come from those rules would make my brother another race from me, and we have the same mother and father. -- Halaqah 21:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
One of my friends has a very ordinary-sounding name, and except for being a rather large guy he looks nothing out of the ordinary. But according to him, a significant part of his family is Cherokee, which is still a major nation around here. Anyway, as far as anybody who looks has any opinion, he is "white." He married a "black" woman, so he has a "black" child. While this boy was growing up, my friend was frequently in company of his "black" son's friends. At first his son's friends felt suspecious of him and I guess there were things they didn't want to talk about. Finally, somebody new to the group said something about my friend, and another of the kids said, "Aw, don't mind him. He's black." End of story.
Sometimes people can be very cruel. I remember being in a program involving Native Americans. One of the presenters was a person who had one "white" and one "Amerind" parent. Two tribal elders, from other than his tribe if I remember correctly, got up and spoke at length and with some heat about the hatefulness of a state in which there exist people of mixed heritage. All of this was said to the poor guy's face in a pretty small group.
Another quirk is that for some purposes people carry identity cards that identify them as members of certain tribes. This is essentially a matter of governmental relations between nations. American Indian tribes have the status of nations, and treaties between, e.g., the Cherokee nation and the U.S. federag government still play a part in the arcane workings of government. Anyway, the result is that you get some people whom even the Amerinds view as "white" who are full members of a recognized tribe. So these kids often feel very put upon when somebody tells them that they "aren't Indian."
Racism aside, what are the real-world differences among these people? There is at least speculation to indicate that Old World people have had distilled alcohol available to them for so many centuries that the people who cannot metabolize alcohol efficiently and therefore are subject to certain disease processes when they consume alcohol heedlessly must have largely been eliminated from the gene pool. But these differences can only be attributed, if at all, on a statistical basis.
What are the other differences that matter? I'm still waiting. P0M 00:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
My feeling is that our list of lexical definitions is not particularly scholarly. I use things like dictionary.com and yourdictionary.com, but I think they are somewhat lacking as scholarly sources. I have no problem with listing dictionary definitions, but lets try to have more scholarly references. I would suggest the list of dictionaries at a place like http://onelook.com is a good place to start.-- Filll 19:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Would a admin please remove the phrase,
“ | Ethiopians were the founders of religion | ” |
( Black people#The role of Ethiopians in defining ancient black identity) since this discriminates against Christians. Its intresting, everyone is against discrimination, but it seems, that they all turn a blind eye to religious discrimination. 86.206.11.179 13:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Good heavens. This is not serious. If you want to log in and be productive, go ahead.-- Filll 14:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is far from neutral. I have several suggestiond for redressing this. I offer these up for discussion, they are not "fundamental positions" of mine. Alun 07:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I strongly for months (i think) have asked that this material be removed, it is out of balance, everyone that comes here complains about it, it is an exotic view, it is almost a "conspiracy theory" and it has been elevated to a station not fitting its merit. I got blocked for disucssing racism in Israel (thought i would drop that in). Yes so we need to remove or reduce its station. I strongly back this move.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
It is stupid to discuss biological def, but we must be plural and i think we can allow it, as stupid as it is.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
It is a valid claim and not without merit, i see no harm here, i know you guys have a problem with the source, not the real content, because of the politics behind this rhetoric.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
We always return to the problem, race is a social construction and black is so invalid in any real historical context. Ancient Egypt black or white, its more complex than that. Black then or black now? Black if they were in Africa today or Black if they were in America today. All of them black or some of them black. we like to throw everyone in one box. I know Africa is the birth place of fully human people and climite would have made them what we call "black" people today. we know this because African people have the broadest gene pool and there only one way to have such a broad gene pool, to be the source of the gene pool. but it is far more complex than that, and people simplify it to exploit it for all forms of racial agendas, we dont live in an honest society and hence we cannot begin to have an honest discussion on race. We would need some Vulcans to come down and be neutral.--
Halaqah
02:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I think we do, because already we dont seem to have enough because no one can ever agree and we cannot assume to have the answer.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Wobble/Alun, it doesnt belong here, or not in length at least.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I dont think such a broad topic could ever have a theme, thats why personally i hate the term black, it is pure confusion, let the music play.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Black people is a phrase that normally is used to describe dark-skinned people.[1]
This statement was deleted as unsourced. I think we can find sources for it if necessary. Is this necessary? Is this not wanted?-- Filll 16:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I like to alien approach, a good article should be clear to all non-human vistors browsing wikipedia. And the first thing they would infer , is black people must b black skin.-- Halaqah 16:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Over-arching articles need to be in place before we can do a good job of this article. One of the over-arching articles should pertain to the evolutionary/genetic history of Homo sapiens sapiens. Is there currently a strong article on that subject? A second over-arching article should pertain to social construction. Do we have that article? How about articles on Language, on culture, and on ethnicity?
Assuming that all the above articles are in place or could be brought to completion, then we can look at the black peoples of the world. The article on African peoples limits its story to the evolution of humans within the geographical confines of Africa, with a little attention being given to any back-flow of genetic change from areas outside of Africa. The article on Black peoples should then tell the story of how the people that trace their genetic heritage largely to early African sources have gone beyond the geographical confines of Africa.
There have been two main ways that people have left Africa, one was in a series of two migrations fairly near to the dawn of human history. One of the unexpected results of recent genetic research has been that the first migratory wave moved along the ocean edge and ended up in Australia. The people who stayed in the tropics presumably never lost their dark-skin adaptation. The second wave moved farther north and skin color adaptations occurred, making these people other than "black people."
The second main way that people have left Africa has been the slave trade, so we may need to check for adequate canopy articles on slavery, etc.
I must ask that the stuff about Ethiopians being from some strange cluster me moved or deleted, it confuses the discussion, it is an off topic, it is also an exotic view which is nowhere in mainstream thinking. We need to streamline this topic not explore every exotic discussion around blackness. The material discussing who is black (in different parts of the world) is far more critical than an extensive "abstract" study of what race Ethiopian people belong to based on some mad scientist.-- Halaqah 16:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
it is history, my only regret is why did we take so long? if we look at all past discussion much time was spent complaining about this, everyone who came here complained about this madness.-- Halaqah 17:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I have been looking at ways to better this article, but it is so unredeemably flawed that a complete rewrite is warranted. Browsing back to previous versions of this article I find well-written, well-sourced and NPOV material. I suggest we gather our efforts to rewrite the article, using new material as well as by recycling information that is available in the article's edit history. So as not to cause another needless edit war, I have created a draft at
Black people/rewrite draft which we can build on. In the draft I have removed blatant POV, but go ahead and remove even more at will. Please explain your edits and abide by consensus. The consensus is that not only Africans are black. Any disruptive edit warring, or attempts to sideline obvious consensus will be considered disruptive behaviour. Disruptive editors will be blocked. --
Ezeu
18:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I needed something from that article the "other opinions" thing, with Diop etc,-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 20:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
It's a great picture, but I don't think it fits perfectly to represent an average black person due to the obvious culture that's also visible in the picture. It isn't shared by every black person on Earth. His cloths and hair (his culture) stands out far more than his race (or skin tone). It would fit more in an article about African lifestyles or something similar to that, but not in such a broad article representing a whole race. Would it be too much to ask for or to provide a better picture that grabs a viewer's focus more on the person's physical appearance rather than his or her cloths or hair style?
I know there are other different pictures, but this one being on top makes it the "main" picture, and I am debating that it should not be. A good one would be a black woman with natural hair wearing no cloths (image cropped to her shoulders...) or any Black person wearing universal cloths like a regular shirt and pants. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.235.81.0 ( talk) 16:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC).
I had a well nice image up here of a composite of black people, if anyone is intrested in making sure it has in only legal images then it would be best to repost it, let me know.halaqah --
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
16:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone has written this means black person, this is one of the points i have always made, muntu means person, normal person. A healthy group of people in their own world would have no need to define themselves by the obvious majority physical condition. For example we dont overstate we are Earthlings, it is only if we were a minority or invaded by Cardasions that we would be called Earthlings (by them). The KHOIKHOI means man man, not black man, just man. In America the Sioux means human, not red human just human, they see themselves as the norm. labels are placed upon "the other" not on themselves. -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes I agree with you muntu simply means person, and as the majority always view themselves as the normal and the outsiders as different. Therefore in Africa the majority will refer to themselves as people and outsiders will have more specific terms. For instance a possible conversation would be something like
The reverse is so in the US where generally blacks are labelled as African-American and whites are simply referred to as American. Muntuwandi 02:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
this is why the concept of black is the concept of "otherness" where African people became the Other, it is not a natural part of African self-identity. No where in Nomadic Mali or Niger a term for I am a black person. and in sudan when you see this you find it is an piece of colonialism left with the pepople, and Rwanda.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Elongated labia and Steatopygia now how does this fit into the whole definition of "blackness"? We say we are all the same but this stuff is not the same at all. So i am confused, because these so-called black people are different from most black people. and how many more races of people have such unique things?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Reply: We are all the same BIOLOGICALLY. Yeah we all have different physical attributes than one another. Indians and Chinese men are both Asians, but would you claim the Chinese as more "Asian" because of their eyes? I've seen pictures of Africans with slanted eyes similar to East Asians. It isn't separated by race, you are generalizing.-- Bélancourt
I actually dont have a point, i just found the above intresting and then questioned the whole concept of blackness, because we could divide humanity on eye color, or blood type, or long noses short noses. and then what makes a "race"? because clearly it doesnt make much sense,-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Why has this article not been listed for deletion yet? Someone proposed that there be a Black People disambiguation page, and that made a lot of sense. This is not an article about a group of people; it is a mishmash about different groups of people, that some of our editors have tossed together. It is unfortunate, and it is embarassing. Almost all of the content already exists in better articles. Short of deletion, I could see a short "Who Is Black?" article serving as a disambiguation page. Jd2718 19:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
What does that actually mean? And how does it fit into the context of this article? It seems to stand alone here as having little relevance, and I can't think of a single way to support this claim, even if the person being indirectly quoted actually did say it. - Che Nuevara 04:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
renaming the ethiopian page i dont think was correct because it makes one person look very heavy in the def of black people so it isnt justified because he is one person with one opinion.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
12:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at the refernces, ref 9 ref 32 what is going on? can this be cleaned up and some standard proper referencing format be used for the entire article so it stands up as a pro job?
i noticed that because it has been very quite, everyone is giving up, all the fire is gone.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
01:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been busy with finals and stomach flu, but I haven't lost interest in this article. What does everyone think about the article on Social construction? Is it an adequate canopy article for this one? Or are there things that need to be added to it so that it will provide an adequate understanding for the background of this article? P0M 06:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The gallery includes the following phrases:
"This article is about the different definitions of the term "black people"." If this is true, these sorts of weasel words cut against the very thing that this article purports to be about. I am deleting the gallery. Jd2718 02:28, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I say leave it and make it better, now the page is boring, just fix it and add some more "black" people, without the weasel words.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
20:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I will assume that if there are holes in any of the canopies I refer to below then editors will come forth to comment on them, and, hopefully, will patch them in appropriate ways.
One of the reasons for controversy and challenges to the neutrality of this article, implicitly mentioned in the article already, is that "Black people" is a social construct. I cannot think off hand of another category that would seem to have a "label" built right into the "product." If you view "black" as one set and "people" as another set, then "black people" ought to be the intersection of the two sets. As we have seen on this discussion page, people object vehemently to that simplistic view, and do so on various grounds.
The first element of the social construct may be the dark skins of humans who are well adapted to withstand high levels of UV. A "black" skin is the most easily perceived trait of the various groups of people that various observers call "black people." A minor problem with talking about this element is that the de facto definition of the word "black" is different from the definition the word is given in physics. It is helpful to realize that the definition actually used by most people corresponds more closely to what artists who work in oil paints and other such pigments call a "shade," i.e. a "darker shade" of any color on the artist's palette is obtained by mixing in some amount of a truly black substance like carbon black. As observers we are more sure that something is a "shade" of some color when the percentage of black pigment is high, and more doubtful about as sequentially less intense shades of that color are encountered. I would not, for instance, assert with much confidence that some of the photographs of "black" people that Filll provided had black pigment on their palettes. Those people, a very much lighter shade of dark, are accepted by some as "Black people", and yet the same judges may reject much darker people from S.E. Asia, so just discussing the dark skins does not adequately describe what some people mean by "Black people", so we have to take their criteria into account. (Factual component 1: pigments present in the skin.)
The second element of the social construct, at least for many people who use the term "Black people," appears to be close genetic connection to some but not all of the current populations of Africa. Without splitting hairs, it is easy to see what the intent and reasoning is here. The original inhabitants of Africa (L1, L2, and L3) all seem to be accepted as founding populations for the populations that are accepted as "Black Africans" today, and it is membership in the "Black African" family tree that is for many a sine qua non for membership in their version of the "Black people" category. Just as there is a kind of logical fuzziness with the idea of "black" coloration, there is also a kind of logical fuzziness with the idea of membership in the "Black African" family tree. The fundamental question is what status is appropriate for a person one of whose parents descends from a long line of ancestors isolated in "darkest Africa," and the other of whose parents descends from a long line of ancestors from some far part of the world, the Taiwanese aborigines for instance. (Factual component 2: genetic heritage of the individual.)
The third element of the social construct, and one that I haven't mentioned before, is actually a group of learned behaviors -- things such as language, group-specific behavioral cues to group membership (hair styles, affective display conventions, dances and music, etc.). (I am reminded of being with my friends, the owners of a fruit stand in Taipei, their kids, and some of their frequent customers, when an American-born Chinese was being interviewed in Chinese on Chinese TV. His Mandarin was good, but his body language was totally aberrant--for a Chinese--because he was gesticulating "wildly" as any American teenager might. My friends seemed torn between being highly amused and being creeped out. I had the flip side of that experience one time watching a teenager approach a low-rise apartment building on a bike. I assumed he was an "Army brat" who was far off course and I was just speculating how a kid could get ten miles off course on a three-speed bike when he jumped off his bike and shouted toward a third-floor window, "Mama, wo hui lai le!" (Mom. I'm back!) He suddenly went from what he looked like (typical American teenager) to what he sounded like (typical Chinese teenager). He continued to look American, but I could tell in an instant that he hadn't been raised that way. Chinese people going back to around 200 BC would have predicted just this result whenever a "barbarian" child is raised in a Chinese household, or vice-versa. Just read Xun Zi.) (Factual component 3: ethnic heritage of the individual.)
Unless somebody can point out how these three factors fail the test of fairness in explaining how various groups conceptualize "Black people," I am going to add something to the intro paragraph to indicate that "Black people" is a family of concepts that involves a certain range of skin pigmentation, a certain range of genetic heritage, and a collection of ethnicities. P0M 07:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
The Biblical section in question does not "define" blacks. It is important that what Genesis 9 actually says is presented. The section has plenty of info about what other groups or doctrines claim but what is the detail of the Biblical narrative itself? This info is directly relevant because Genesis makes no definition of blacks based on skin color or race. This is in contrast to assorted teachings that attempt to impose some racial hierarchy on the ancient narrative, but it contains no such hierarchies for 2 reeasons: (a) the "curse of Ham" relates to a prediction that was to befall certain Caananite peoples- conquest by ex-slaves out of Egypt. It does not mention any blacks or slavery at all. (b) As for the supposed inferiority of the Hamitic peoples, the Biblical narrative suggests the direct opposite. The highly civilized Egyptians, the powerful empire builder Nimrod of Cush, and the sophiscated urban and trade civilization of certain Caananite peoples clearly demolish any such claims. A lot of info on the section deals bounces back and forth with a wide range of scattered statements, like Jehovah Witness doctrine. The detail of the "original" source narrative needs to be clearly stated and presented before launching into these scattered fragments. Also, the book- Redford, Donald B. Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times (referenced in the article) provides scholarly background, and discusses traditional peoples and their associations- such as Mizraim (Egypt) Cush (Ethiopia, Sheba, Seba, Yemen) plus Libya, and Caanan (today's Palestine). Enriquecardova 09:28, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I found an informative and very well researched study based on physical characteristics of all human types in general; and the following link is a page mostly based on those defined universally as Blacks. Since we can't copy the image and use it here, I think we can get ideas out of it, and maybe use real photos rather than drawings if possible. I don't want to recommend linking to it since it would seem more like a free advertisement of it because this isn't exactly an official website based on that sort of stuff. Anyway here it is:
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/34877428/ click on the thumbnail to enlarge it.
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Hetep and Respect Good Spirit, The first word in recorded history to describe Blackness is a burnt piece of wood. This Metu Neter glyph is translated as the letters km. A piece of bread is added "t" and the symbol for nation to make the Name of Classical African Civilization, Kmt (Kemet) or the land of the Black people.
See the Kemetic (Egyptian) word for Black and Black people. You can find a detailed explanation in my book "The What Makes You Black, Blook". You will find the details with the metu neter (pictographs) in the appendix.
This takes place thousands of years before the first Greek writes a book. This article should be updated to reflect the fact that the Word Black was first written by Black people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aunk ( talk • contribs) 18:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
Alun the "other black background" on the british census is also only for people of African ancestry. The fact that a tiny % are from Oceania means nothing. There are people of African ancestry who live in Oceania. Enough with the original research.
In any event it's clear that there's a narrow definition of what it means to be black and a broad definition, just like there's a narrow definition of what a lizard is, and broad definition (anything that looks kind of like a lizard including a crocodile and a dinosaur). Encyclopedias tend to focus on precise definitions so that's what we'd like to do with this article. There's another article for teh broad defenition of black. Timelist 18:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
So what do we know about these "Black Other"? We know that most describe their ethnic identity as Black British, and that the vast majority were born in the UK (79%). That's all we know about them, they do not describe their descent at all, they just tell us where they were born and what their ethnic group is (Black Other and Black British mainly). We can assume they do not identify as Black Caribbean or Black African as they did not choose this option. You are claiming these people as of recent African descent, maybe a lot of them are, I don't know, but neither do you, and yet you claim to know this as a fact. How do you know this? Alun 20:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)For more than eight in ten (84 per cent) of those in the Other Black group, an ethnic group description was specified in the text box on the census form. The majority (63 per cent) specified a ‘Black British’ ethnic identity (Figure 4.2). A further 13 per cent were coded to a ‘Black Mixed’ group, indicating mixed ethnicity where both or all ethnicities described are from different black groups. A ‘Black British’ identity was even stronger among Other Blacks born in the UK. Three quarters (74 per cent) of the Other Black group born in the UK specified a ‘Black British’ identity. The proportion was similar for those over 16 years old (75 per cent) and those under 16 (72 per cent), most of whom will have had their ethnic identity written in by a parent.
Timelist, so your preferred definition is the lizard, and everyone else who disagrees with you merely makes a case that looks like a lizard. I do not see the validity of that simplictic analogy. -- Ezeu 18:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
You're never gonna convince me that Indians (or at least some) are black people. Didn't anyone ever see Mississippi Masala?-- 4.245.206.43 02:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
No offense, but I think that the introductory paragraph is again migrating towards a bit of bias and also some inaccessible English. Here is my suggested replacement:
This article is about the different definitions of the phrase "black people". To see the article about the African American use of this phrase, see
Black people (US meaning).
Black people is a term that usually refers to various dark-skinned people.
[1] "Black people" are also known as blacks. There is no universally agreed-upon definition for who is "black". "Black" can be a racial, ethnic, societal or cultural classification. A variety of racial, socio-political, lexical, and biological factors can influence the definition of a "black person". Some argue that the term should be reserved exclusively for dark-skinned people of recent African ancestry in certain parts of the world.
[2] However, some argue that this definition is inaccurate since it excludes
Negritos and
Australoids and other dominantly dark-skinned groups.
That is not perfect, but at least it is a proposal to argue over. I would then suggest that another article discussing the African American point of view be produced. It would have to feature both the restrictive view and have links to more general views. However, there are already hundreds of articles written from the more general viewpoint on Wikipedia, so this should not be hard to flesh it out properly so as not to claim that ALL African Americans support a definition of
which many seem to want to push for. -- Filll 21:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
We can keep the reference to Negritos and Australoids, as long as we do it in a way that does not step too hard on someone else's toes. In fact I would like to include them so that people can understand what we are hinting at actually.-- Filll 21:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but I can't accept a bias in the introduction that states that Black people is usually used for people with a recent African origin. This is not true. In some parts of the world it's true, but not everywhere. I also don't understand what is particularly "not neutral" about the word "exclusive". Exclusive simply means "only". So if it's exclusively people of African descent it just means the same as not including people of any non-recent African descent. If this is what you mean then how is it POV to say it? It's just accurate that's all. I don't get how it can be neutral to keep saying that "African descent"="Black", now you want to say it in the introduction, or at least imply that this is the "usual" or "normal" usage everywhere in the world.
Alun
21:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I tried to include all comments and make a version. I also tried to clean up the English a bit.-- Filll 07:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I forgot to add, if anyone tries, like children in a candy store who cant get what they want, go and start another black people article i will make sure it is deleted. This is not a forum, our a country club, this is not a playground for "I dont want to play with you so i will go and get my own friends." Their is only one "black people" and the article should be of Encyclopedic content, reflective, diverse in world view, baka! or i will go and start creating new sections called Israel--My version of it, USA my version of it and on and on, the entire wikipedia should be balanced, i.e what is true for one section must be true for all. I would like to take this time to say thanks to all the European contributions to this site, as you know Africans have no yet been able to define themselevs and we still need your help. I am serious about the last bit, this is the legacy of enslavement.-- Halaqah 08:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Message to Timelist, I dont come here often enough to know who is who, (I know a few of my big time enemies come here). I have just observed some of the incorrect edits you are doing and must ask you to stop, It is not going to give you victory, why are you doing it. Is it fair? Is it fair for your American POV to be a WORLD POV. have u been to Fiji and other countries where non-African people identify as being of a "black" race. Furthermore many people in the world were called black by Europeans. Almost everyone became black. Imagine if a Jewish person said suffering and genocide and Holocaust only referred to them--is it right? Stop causing trouble. I think the intro accommodates your POV, and if I had anything to say about it the intro wouldn’t so be happy for what they have given you and be a broader thinking human being. I know how you feel, cuz if they start saying African means White South Africans I would flip. But black really doesnt only apply to African, trust me my friend most African never call themeselves black. Go to Niger, or Timbuktu, or Gonder and see if you hear the word black people.-- Halaqah 13:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It is true that we do not really know who is who and how many there are. The falangists might be all one person. Many of the "African Americans" might also be one person. Or maybe just 2 or 3. Maybe splitting the article will not help. Splitting it would not negate the need to make at least one general article, even if the general article is a disambiguation page. Now of course everyone is fighting over who gets to have the simple "black people" article. Let's take a look at how many people we are talking about:
We know that not ALL African Americans agree with the restrictive viewpoint, since many have a global viewpoint. I believe Editingoprah has a global viewpoint and is a self-identified African American. We known from Halaqah who is our only self-identified African that not all Africans share this view, and maybe no Africans. I know that very few if any Australian Aborigines share the view. We do not know about the others. Certainly some in South Asia use the term for political purposes (DALIT: THE BLACK UNTOUCHABLES OF INDIA, THIRD EDITION, by V.T. Rajshekar ISBN: 0-932863-05-1, 124 pp., illus., 1995, $9.95) and possibly for other reasons. There are over 160 million Dalits in India. However, it is fairly clear that the perspective that
leaves out very large groups of people who have other views, even those with dark skin who self-identify as black. I would not say a group of 230,000 Aborigines is a trivial number. How many Dalits call themselves black? I am not sure what else to suggest but maybe some intervention of outside editors.-- Filll 13:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I think from what FILL said above I sign off on this debate, it is beyond argument, 40 million are called black and even more in Austrailia and Oceania, like Fiji etc. I dont want to be a "thats it" but i think the point is 100% accurate and the debate should be closed. Too much evidence supports that black people is not only for Africans. I even heard an Italian women calling a dark Italian black. I have seen no supporting evidence for why only AA are black, NONE! or are they denying the entire history of Indians being called black by the Bristish? -- Halaqah 15:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that I was mistaken. We also have Ezeu who is a self-identified black African. I fear I am incorrect about Editingoprah and the sock puppets.-- Filll 15:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The following is a personal view only, I used no references, or encyclopedic content, do what u will with this contribution. Here's my two cents:
I am an African-Canadian, son of Jamaican immigrants who sought Canada as their place to better their lives and the lives of their children. I initially logged into this 'black people' page to find out more about black people across the globe and their history, struggles as a minority. 'Black people' are all over the world, a minority in Russia, Korea,Europe, Mexico, Central and South America. I was and still seek knowledge of the plight of Blacks all over the world, Canada, U.S. and the other nations I mentioned.
To get back to the point, the terms black and African to describe a community, are problematic. Let's say you use the term 'black', who is defined as such. Many 'blacks' can easily pass for whites or caucasian, Mariah Carey,(as pointed out in an e.g.), the other problem is black as defined in the dictionary is defined very negatively, as evil etc., and not every one likes the term assigned to them. The 3rd problem, most people who call themselves black aren't black they're brown at best ( a silly point, possibly but true nonetheless. The good thing about the term 'Black',in the seventies became a call to self-pride for many in America, (and more than likely across the world), a call to build a united community that supported its needs through Blacks supporting their businesses, working together to build safer, stronger communities etc. That's why I like the term 'Black', in the sense of racial pride.
African is term I also use, I firmly believe that many if not all blacks (possibly all of humanity) originated from Africa. Many people I speak to have no allegiance to Africa as a number of Africans (those I've spoken to) view us as exiles, not worth working with and not true Africans. Many people reject the African term and have allegiance only to the nations of their birth I am Jamaican, or American first. A viewpoint that I think is foolish especially unless you are from a nation where blacks are the majority, you more than likely have suffered more hate from your fellow countrymen who view you as a lesser being than a fellow Brit, Canadian or American.
The sad thing, there are terms used to describe us, some less than flattering which I refuse to use myself. Negro is the lesser of the evils, but I've hated the term. It's a definition dumped on us not one I believe we chose for ourselves. Negro, Negroid, I just hate the term.
Which makes this whole debate very confusing, the attempt was to have an entry to define a group that exists all over the world, It is necessary to have info about blacks all over the world not just in Africa or the usual suspects, not an easy feat of course but worth investigating. To help aid myself or others in that search for information terms had to be selected. Should we squabble over the term black or african when we ourselves have trouble figuring out how we identify ourselves ? I have heard of no term that would satisfy me, so if any one can think of one, please let's hear it. That's my two cents. Darkrider30 04:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC)darkrider30
Someone just included the phrase
which I think is pretty funny.-- Filll 14:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It's amazing how much hatred there is for peoples of rescent sub-Saharan African ancestry on wikipedia. It seems we're the only ethnicity on earth that's being denied the right to an article about ourselves using our own ethnic termonlogy despite the fact that this termonology is officially recognized by numerous governments.
So we have editors like Wobble and Fill who want to create a ridiculous article listing all the people in history who have ever been called black by anyone ever regardless of whether the term was used in an ethnic context or not. As a result these editors are transforming the article into an incoherent mess and disrespecting peoples of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry in the process. Timelist 15:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Timelist you r correct in part, African people have zero voice in their agency (to quote) but I am African, I am not American, My ancestors are listed in the Kebra Negust and we dont/didnt call ourselves black, I am not a coconut or a clown. Many Hausa and Ethiopian never use this word, actually most African dont save SA. And not only Near African or whatever are called black. Your voice is in the article u need to browe wikipedia and see the real racism going on, this site here is actually one of the better examples of plurality--TRUST ME BRO, this is mild compared to other parts, its a war in some zones for African agency.-- Halaqah 15:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Suspected Sockpuppets of Editingoprah:
Take a look at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Editingoprah.M This is one person who has been harassing other users here for months and months and ignoring mediation attempts. We have a problem.-- Filll 16:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Also please take a look at this Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Editingoprah.-- Filll 16:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Now that I have skimmed the Mediation case ( Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-08-08 Black people) I see that we have a much bigger problem than I realized. Editingoprah and his or her sock puppets have been causing problems for a long long time. I think that if Editingoprah/Kobrakid/Timelist etc does not want to adopt their own article to edit and leave this one alone, we should get them barred from this article. It is clear that they have had some sort of crazy irrational agenda for many months that no one else agrees with. I am sorry to sound so harsh but that is what it looks like to me. I should have realized this sooner.-- Filll 14:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Crazy/irrational agenda huh? So people of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry wanting an article about our own unique ethnicity (as recognized by the census of many governments) using our own ethnic termonology is a crazy irrational agenda? Yes I gues it is pretty crazy and irrational for us to expect the same respect as every other ethnic group. Timelist 16:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Crazy/irrational agenda huh? So people of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry wanting an article about our own unique ethnicity (as recognized by the census of many governments) using our own ethnic termonology is a crazy irrational agenda? Yes I gues it is pretty crazy and irrational for us to expect the same respect as every other ethnic group. Timelist 16:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
That perhaps 90% of the trouble at this page is the cause of one user with multiple accounts harassing others and engaging in disruptive behavior. I think the time has come to come to grips with this. All efforts for at least 6 months have gone nowhere. Many editors have given up in disgust. Tons of material was flushed down the toilet. All so one editor can rant and rave and threaten and throw tantrums and charge others with racism. This is too much. Even when I tried to get them to create a separate page with their own agenda, they wanted this one instead. And were not at all constructive. It is not as though black and African people and African Americans have no pages. There are literally hundreds. And this person does not want to contribute but just fight others and waste time and energy and be destructive. And their edits are usually stilted awful English. I am not even convinced any more that this person is truely African American or a person of color, but an outside agitator trying to cause trouble and damage to the article. This person is working at cross purposes to people of color, and might even be like the falangists, just trying to cause disruption to keep these articles from being written.-- Filll 17:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Timelist, Black people are not an ethnic group.
Then why are they an ethnic origin category on the U.S. census?
There are hundreds of ethnic groups in sub Saharan Africa, to lump them all together as a single ethnic group is extremely offensive to them.
But it's not offensive to lump all the dark skinned people of the world into 1 category?
These different ethnic groups do exist, have you not heared about Rwanda and the genocide there? Do you seriously think that Black people of recent African descent form a single ethnic group? African Americans are a different ethnic group to West Indians who are different again to all African groups.
There are ethnic groups within ethnic groups. The popular argument is that there are many tribes of Native Americans but that doesn't change the fact that Native Americans are still a coherent ethnicity.
You are also being unfair, you want to repeat the African diaspora article as a "Black people" article. The only reason I can think of for doing this is that you cannot accept any other POV than your own.
I have no problem with other POVs. But the word black has more than one legitimate meaning. My ethnicity (recent sub-Saharan African ancestry) is as legitimate as any other ethnicity and I have as much of a right to an article about my ethnicity as any other ethnicity does. Why are you resisting the right of my ethnicity to have an article (under the terms we choose)? Why are you telling me my ethnicity doesn't exist? True, black also refers to dark skin, but "white" also refers to light skin, yet your ethnicity is still allowed its own article.
I am really angry about this. There are Black people who are discriminated against because of the colour of their skin all over the world.
There's more to being black than experiencing discrimination. Being discriminated against has nothing to do with being black, it's just an unfortunate byproduct. Why does it make you angry to see people of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry assert their identity. We're recognized as Black by the U.S. census and we'd like an article reflecting this fact. Timelist 17:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Because you are one person with the better part of a dozen sockpockets who has caused repeated chaos here. After 6 months or more of hostility on the article, enough is enough. I offered you the opportunity to make your own article. You rejected it and want to take this one over. No more. No one else agrees with you. Face the facts. It is you against about 20 or 30 or more other editors. -- Filll 17:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Timlist, no one is deying you the right to be black, but the right to monopolise a term that is used to self-identify, or to refer to a variety of people. If you need more arguments against your views, I refer you to page 1 of this discussion and the almost total consensus against you. -- Ezeu 17:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The basic problem is not that "black people" has the meaning you claim or not. The problem comes with trying to stamp out other meanings.-- Filll 18:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes. See Wikipedia:Content forking.
POV forks usually arise when two or more contributors disagree about the content of an article or other page, and instead of resolving that disagreement, someone creates another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) to be developed according to their personal views rather than according to consensus. This second article is known as a "POV fork" of the first. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major Points of View on a certain subject should be treated in one article. As Wikipedia does not view article forking as an acceptable solution to disagreements between contributors, such forks may be nominated for deletion.
Alun 18:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The discussion page is very large so much that it is easy to lose track of what the various propositions are. And also who supports what. here are a few things I have picked out.
See Timelist? This is what happens when you get people sufficiently annoyed by your tactics. They lose the willingness to cooperate with you. You get a bad name. I think that a case can be made to have two articles, particularly if this one is made general to be about ALL people called black or who self-identify as black, either now or in the past. The ethnic article has to be done very carefully. I do think that there is some sort of generalized "ethnic" or "cultural" argument that is broader than African American but not as broad as BLack people, so that ethnic article would fit in an intermediate niche. Here is a sort of diagram showing what I imagine:
|<----------------Black people-------------------->|
|<-------------Black people (ethnicity)---->|
|<---African American--->|<--African people--------------->|
This is not quite correct, because of mulattos and other complications. But is approximate. I think that Timelist can make a successful argument, but he must give up the notion of fighting with everyone and anyone who he thinks wants to use the name he personally wants to reserve for his own personal definition, ignoring the world outside the US, ignoring African Americans with a global perspective and ignoring history.-- Filll 21:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I have had several reasons for suggesting more articles for months. One of the reasons is that there is too much material for one article. If it was repetitious to have that other article, I would agree that we should only have one article. But it is not repetitious. I also think that we can accommodate more viewpoints more easily with this article. Just fighting we do not move forward. If we can allow another article and not fight, then that is helpful. Also, if you look at the list of articles on this area, we have several hundred already. So if we have another one, so what? It does no harm. Also, we have to recognize that given their wealth, African Americans have more influence on Wikipedia and the internet than Africa or other places. This might be unfair, but it is reality. This accommodates that reality. It might not be the best reason, but it is true.-- Filll 22:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The discussion is too long, I havent bothered to read it. So excuse me if I'm repeating someone. I think Black people (ethnicity) should be renamed to Sub-Saharan African People, which is defined as people who are of "recent" Sub Saharan Ancestry...
This Black People article should be about black skinned people who are mainly Sub-Saharan Africans and Native Ocenians... Lukas19 23:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
But there are many people in the US who look very white that are called black. People who have maybe 1/128th or 1/256th African ancestry. So it is not really dark skinned.-- Filll 23:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
No it is not about dark skin. It USUALLY about dark skin, but it is not about dark skin (no skin is black). I agree that the Sahara is not a great barrier. It is rough at best. And there are lots of white African immigrants and Indian and Chinese Africans that live south of the Sahara.-- Filll 23:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at the map. It makes perfect sense. North Africans arent considered black, but they are "brown". So African People can not be a substitude for Black People in Timelist's sense. And Black Africans sounds funny...So sub-Saharan African People makes sense to me... Lukas19 23:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Lots of people north of that boundary on your map are VERY dark skinned. So it is more complicated. And Black Africa is a term that is often used, but I do not think we have an article on it. Besides which we have one editor here who does not like that term.-- Filll 23:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Unless it is defined very carefully, this is probably true. It is not really a US ethnicity, but a US-defined ethnic category.-- Filll 00:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I think Canada probably absorbs most of this from the US. After all, most of the Blacks in Canada are there because Canada was the terminus of the Underground Railroad. There are some there because of being recent Commonwealth immigrants and some there because they are descendents from the very few black slaves in Canada before the British Empire outlawed slavery. But most come from the US. And most of the culture in this regard is imported from the US. Canada is culturally dominated by the US to a large degree.-- Filll 00:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
But if you try to pare the definition in that way, you will end up getting killed with charges of a fork. You can get away with it if you claim this is a US based thing and part of US culture. But only by a hair. You still might get nuked. If you try to shove Afro Argentinians etc in , aside from just a tangential mention, you will get your article killed.-- Filll 00:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure that people will give up this article as the general article, but an alternative name for one of the general articles might be " Who is black?", parallel to the article " Who is a Jew?".-- Filll 09:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been busy with other things for a while. Coming back after a few days I find lots of confusion, and odd support from the OED and the "canonical" dictionary of Chinese that was first put together not long after the Chinese deposed the Manchurians for defining Australians with Africans. The view has more merit than I would ever have believed before seeing the research of Wells et al., but just picking two groups as "most related" because of skin color denies the objective research of Wells and others.
I would like to see an article that began with the putative earliest Homo sapiens sapiens population in Africa and showed, within the confines of the African continent, how the San, the Mbuti, the East Africans, the Bantu, the Nilio-Saharan, and the West Africans relate to each other, but also relate to groups with whom they are in closest geographic and social contact, the Berbers, the Sardinians... and I don't see the Egyptians mentioned on the Cavalli-Sforza square chart, but they and the Arabs should probably be included as well, not as core populations but as peripheral populations that have diverged themselves and perhaps have brought some outside diversity back to Africa.
Once we have that article (which we might call something like "African people" meaning people with (fuzzily) "all" (almost all) their family history occuring on the continent of AFrica and adjacent areas (Arab peninsula, and, for historical/genetic reasons the island of Sardinia), it would be easier to talk about the diaspora and give groups such as the Australian aboriginal population and the African Americans a clear position related to what we have already established as the historical and geographical center.
To carry out this kind of an organization we need to be cognizant of existing article, and perhaps we would end up tailoring them to fit a more global picture than has been presented previously. P0M 01:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
One general suggestion: If we decide what groups to make articles about, how to define those groups most elegantly, etc., it will then be relatively easy to find names for them. We are now stuck on names that people want to us and then running into trouble when there are as many definitions for the names as there are contributors. P0M 01:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
As I noted above, there are literally hundreds of articles about black and African people. There are some articles which need to be written and some which are in bad shape and need to be expanded or worked on. We have some gaps. We also need to organize the material so it is accessible. We do have to be careful not to duplicate too much and to name things appropriately. Pan-Africanism is part of a big family of articles. African American is part of a big family of articles. There are many racial articles but I do not get the impression they are too well organized yet. There is a lot on genetics, again not super well organized yet. But we could serve a valuable service by organizing this area, creating a few lead articles, filling in gaps, etc. I would propose that African people and black people be very general articles. Very wide, not too much depth. Then we can have a suite of others more in depth on various aspects. Some exist already. Some are in pretty good shape. Some need work, to be honest. But it will take a while to get a grasp on the humungous volume of stuff and figure out what is needed and where it should go.-- Filll 04:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I just remembered Timelist said everyone has a page about them, but there is African people (although i am frighten to look) and African American so that is an ethnic group, so am i missing something?-- Halaqah 10:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
black is dying, it isnt used in Africa, more and more people are moving away from it, come back in 10 years and see. The first time i realized this was with 500 years later and maulana karenga , kimani Nehusiand others where you could see the deliberate drift, and actually the film above had a big message at the end, stating Black was only a political term but we are an African people. times r changing and black like yellow people and red people is on the downslope, -- Halaqah 11:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I have added a delete tage to black people (ethnicity) or the tage should be put as merged. I think some of you may support what i have done. I have a POV at times but i am fair, and it isnt fair to run off and make new articles about your little WORLD VIEW.If i have added the tag poorly go and fix it, but i would like everyone to add their opinions on the validity of it being deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Halaqah ( talk • contribs) 11:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
This is why all structures need rules and regs because sometimes the path is difficult. I think the creation of the article is an encylopedic violation. This page is not about arguing it is about content, if more people start using wikipedia what do you think will happen, think long term, imagine more views coming here more timelist with alternative views, may an India guy comes and Creates black people only for indians, this is the problem. work with the democracy and plurality of this page--that is the solution.-- Halaqah 11:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
ethnicity: African American, Hausa, Amhara, Gurage, Oromo, Sileti, Mandingo, Wachaga, Sindi, Hindi, Han, San, Soax, black is a loose (undefined) social construction for bannding non-white ethnic groups into, black is an inclusive group while white is an exclusive.-- Halaqah 09:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been reading through it, and I think quotes from Mr.Coon or the Nation of Islam are unnesscesarry. This article is suppose to be about the black "race", and how it's defined UNIVERSALLY, not how it's defined by racist mentallities. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bélancourt ( talk • contribs) 17:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC).
I so agree about Coon, the man is a relic of an evil era, and is been given centre stage, i am sure he would be well pleased, even his Europeans contep dismiss him.NOI might be important because unlike Coon they have greatly influenced the "Black man was the first" thingie. that would be hard to ignore but Coon--joke -- Halaqah 19:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at these Americans:
Which of these famous Americans, some of whom you might recognize, would you think is black? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Filll ( talk • contribs) 04:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC). oops-- Filll 04:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Well I figured I should make it a bit more pleasant for our male editors to do this important research :) --
Filll
05:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
This is sort of a response to the list of pictures above this post. The one drop rule is an American law (which I thought was dropped out, I didn't know it was still in effect), and wouldn't apply to many other places like South Africa for example. All of them are either mixed, or have parents who are mixed.
...Another rant I hold is the use of the word "mulatto". I think it's degoratory since it originates from the word "mule", which is a mix between a Donkey and a Horse... now, which ever race you think would represent the horse, obviously noone would like to be called a donkey (based on the human characteristics associated with the animal, e.i. dumb, lazy, etc.). So if you call yourself a Mulatto, in a way, you're insulting your own parents. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
68.235.81.0 (
talk)
16:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
Mulatto like all the words i hate is a problem, word it is rarely used, not polite and should be avoided, we need to be respectful, it was a dirty word fashioned out of enslavement. multi racial heritage is far more accurate, and most people of multi racial heritage are African or racial identify with being Black people and guess what they are, because race is in your head. And anyone with enough african blood is an African, if they wanna be. Yes everyone will find something offensive but that why we need to look at the words carefully clearly looking at Mulatto and multi-ethnic background we dont need to try hard to see which one is better. Retarded or Mentally challneged. blacks or African Americans, is it just me or is African Americans a more beautiful term? that yellow person or that Chinese person? She is a Mulatto, or she an African from a multi ethnic background-- Halaqah 18:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Ezeu used the word here on the talk page. He is from Africa. It is not in the article. It might be a lousy word, but I do not want to expunge it from the encyclopedia or dictionary. I could give you a list of thousands of similar words.--18:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
So Halaqah, what is your opinion of the pictures I posted links to above? Who is black to you in that list?-- Filll 18:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Wow no one wants to try my test? Haha...I have a good point to make with that test.-- Filll 19:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Those pictures remind me of the good old days, i think i shouldnt look at them too long. I dont believe in this someone is light skin so they are less "black" or someone has narrow bone features so they are less black. Where i come from those rules would make my brother another race from me, and we have the same mother and father. -- Halaqah 21:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
One of my friends has a very ordinary-sounding name, and except for being a rather large guy he looks nothing out of the ordinary. But according to him, a significant part of his family is Cherokee, which is still a major nation around here. Anyway, as far as anybody who looks has any opinion, he is "white." He married a "black" woman, so he has a "black" child. While this boy was growing up, my friend was frequently in company of his "black" son's friends. At first his son's friends felt suspecious of him and I guess there were things they didn't want to talk about. Finally, somebody new to the group said something about my friend, and another of the kids said, "Aw, don't mind him. He's black." End of story.
Sometimes people can be very cruel. I remember being in a program involving Native Americans. One of the presenters was a person who had one "white" and one "Amerind" parent. Two tribal elders, from other than his tribe if I remember correctly, got up and spoke at length and with some heat about the hatefulness of a state in which there exist people of mixed heritage. All of this was said to the poor guy's face in a pretty small group.
Another quirk is that for some purposes people carry identity cards that identify them as members of certain tribes. This is essentially a matter of governmental relations between nations. American Indian tribes have the status of nations, and treaties between, e.g., the Cherokee nation and the U.S. federag government still play a part in the arcane workings of government. Anyway, the result is that you get some people whom even the Amerinds view as "white" who are full members of a recognized tribe. So these kids often feel very put upon when somebody tells them that they "aren't Indian."
Racism aside, what are the real-world differences among these people? There is at least speculation to indicate that Old World people have had distilled alcohol available to them for so many centuries that the people who cannot metabolize alcohol efficiently and therefore are subject to certain disease processes when they consume alcohol heedlessly must have largely been eliminated from the gene pool. But these differences can only be attributed, if at all, on a statistical basis.
What are the other differences that matter? I'm still waiting. P0M 00:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
My feeling is that our list of lexical definitions is not particularly scholarly. I use things like dictionary.com and yourdictionary.com, but I think they are somewhat lacking as scholarly sources. I have no problem with listing dictionary definitions, but lets try to have more scholarly references. I would suggest the list of dictionaries at a place like http://onelook.com is a good place to start.-- Filll 19:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Would a admin please remove the phrase,
“ | Ethiopians were the founders of religion | ” |
( Black people#The role of Ethiopians in defining ancient black identity) since this discriminates against Christians. Its intresting, everyone is against discrimination, but it seems, that they all turn a blind eye to religious discrimination. 86.206.11.179 13:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Good heavens. This is not serious. If you want to log in and be productive, go ahead.-- Filll 14:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is far from neutral. I have several suggestiond for redressing this. I offer these up for discussion, they are not "fundamental positions" of mine. Alun 07:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I strongly for months (i think) have asked that this material be removed, it is out of balance, everyone that comes here complains about it, it is an exotic view, it is almost a "conspiracy theory" and it has been elevated to a station not fitting its merit. I got blocked for disucssing racism in Israel (thought i would drop that in). Yes so we need to remove or reduce its station. I strongly back this move.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
It is stupid to discuss biological def, but we must be plural and i think we can allow it, as stupid as it is.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
It is a valid claim and not without merit, i see no harm here, i know you guys have a problem with the source, not the real content, because of the politics behind this rhetoric.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
We always return to the problem, race is a social construction and black is so invalid in any real historical context. Ancient Egypt black or white, its more complex than that. Black then or black now? Black if they were in Africa today or Black if they were in America today. All of them black or some of them black. we like to throw everyone in one box. I know Africa is the birth place of fully human people and climite would have made them what we call "black" people today. we know this because African people have the broadest gene pool and there only one way to have such a broad gene pool, to be the source of the gene pool. but it is far more complex than that, and people simplify it to exploit it for all forms of racial agendas, we dont live in an honest society and hence we cannot begin to have an honest discussion on race. We would need some Vulcans to come down and be neutral.--
Halaqah
02:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I think we do, because already we dont seem to have enough because no one can ever agree and we cannot assume to have the answer.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Wobble/Alun, it doesnt belong here, or not in length at least.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I dont think such a broad topic could ever have a theme, thats why personally i hate the term black, it is pure confusion, let the music play.-- Halaqah 01:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Black people is a phrase that normally is used to describe dark-skinned people.[1]
This statement was deleted as unsourced. I think we can find sources for it if necessary. Is this necessary? Is this not wanted?-- Filll 16:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I like to alien approach, a good article should be clear to all non-human vistors browsing wikipedia. And the first thing they would infer , is black people must b black skin.-- Halaqah 16:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Over-arching articles need to be in place before we can do a good job of this article. One of the over-arching articles should pertain to the evolutionary/genetic history of Homo sapiens sapiens. Is there currently a strong article on that subject? A second over-arching article should pertain to social construction. Do we have that article? How about articles on Language, on culture, and on ethnicity?
Assuming that all the above articles are in place or could be brought to completion, then we can look at the black peoples of the world. The article on African peoples limits its story to the evolution of humans within the geographical confines of Africa, with a little attention being given to any back-flow of genetic change from areas outside of Africa. The article on Black peoples should then tell the story of how the people that trace their genetic heritage largely to early African sources have gone beyond the geographical confines of Africa.
There have been two main ways that people have left Africa, one was in a series of two migrations fairly near to the dawn of human history. One of the unexpected results of recent genetic research has been that the first migratory wave moved along the ocean edge and ended up in Australia. The people who stayed in the tropics presumably never lost their dark-skin adaptation. The second wave moved farther north and skin color adaptations occurred, making these people other than "black people."
The second main way that people have left Africa has been the slave trade, so we may need to check for adequate canopy articles on slavery, etc.
I must ask that the stuff about Ethiopians being from some strange cluster me moved or deleted, it confuses the discussion, it is an off topic, it is also an exotic view which is nowhere in mainstream thinking. We need to streamline this topic not explore every exotic discussion around blackness. The material discussing who is black (in different parts of the world) is far more critical than an extensive "abstract" study of what race Ethiopian people belong to based on some mad scientist.-- Halaqah 16:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
it is history, my only regret is why did we take so long? if we look at all past discussion much time was spent complaining about this, everyone who came here complained about this madness.-- Halaqah 17:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I have been looking at ways to better this article, but it is so unredeemably flawed that a complete rewrite is warranted. Browsing back to previous versions of this article I find well-written, well-sourced and NPOV material. I suggest we gather our efforts to rewrite the article, using new material as well as by recycling information that is available in the article's edit history. So as not to cause another needless edit war, I have created a draft at
Black people/rewrite draft which we can build on. In the draft I have removed blatant POV, but go ahead and remove even more at will. Please explain your edits and abide by consensus. The consensus is that not only Africans are black. Any disruptive edit warring, or attempts to sideline obvious consensus will be considered disruptive behaviour. Disruptive editors will be blocked. --
Ezeu
18:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I needed something from that article the "other opinions" thing, with Diop etc,-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 20:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
It's a great picture, but I don't think it fits perfectly to represent an average black person due to the obvious culture that's also visible in the picture. It isn't shared by every black person on Earth. His cloths and hair (his culture) stands out far more than his race (or skin tone). It would fit more in an article about African lifestyles or something similar to that, but not in such a broad article representing a whole race. Would it be too much to ask for or to provide a better picture that grabs a viewer's focus more on the person's physical appearance rather than his or her cloths or hair style?
I know there are other different pictures, but this one being on top makes it the "main" picture, and I am debating that it should not be. A good one would be a black woman with natural hair wearing no cloths (image cropped to her shoulders...) or any Black person wearing universal cloths like a regular shirt and pants. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.235.81.0 ( talk) 16:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC).
I had a well nice image up here of a composite of black people, if anyone is intrested in making sure it has in only legal images then it would be best to repost it, let me know.halaqah --
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
16:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone has written this means black person, this is one of the points i have always made, muntu means person, normal person. A healthy group of people in their own world would have no need to define themselves by the obvious majority physical condition. For example we dont overstate we are Earthlings, it is only if we were a minority or invaded by Cardasions that we would be called Earthlings (by them). The KHOIKHOI means man man, not black man, just man. In America the Sioux means human, not red human just human, they see themselves as the norm. labels are placed upon "the other" not on themselves. -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes I agree with you muntu simply means person, and as the majority always view themselves as the normal and the outsiders as different. Therefore in Africa the majority will refer to themselves as people and outsiders will have more specific terms. For instance a possible conversation would be something like
The reverse is so in the US where generally blacks are labelled as African-American and whites are simply referred to as American. Muntuwandi 02:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
this is why the concept of black is the concept of "otherness" where African people became the Other, it is not a natural part of African self-identity. No where in Nomadic Mali or Niger a term for I am a black person. and in sudan when you see this you find it is an piece of colonialism left with the pepople, and Rwanda.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 02:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Elongated labia and Steatopygia now how does this fit into the whole definition of "blackness"? We say we are all the same but this stuff is not the same at all. So i am confused, because these so-called black people are different from most black people. and how many more races of people have such unique things?-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Reply: We are all the same BIOLOGICALLY. Yeah we all have different physical attributes than one another. Indians and Chinese men are both Asians, but would you claim the Chinese as more "Asian" because of their eyes? I've seen pictures of Africans with slanted eyes similar to East Asians. It isn't separated by race, you are generalizing.-- Bélancourt
I actually dont have a point, i just found the above intresting and then questioned the whole concept of blackness, because we could divide humanity on eye color, or blood type, or long noses short noses. and then what makes a "race"? because clearly it doesnt make much sense,-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Why has this article not been listed for deletion yet? Someone proposed that there be a Black People disambiguation page, and that made a lot of sense. This is not an article about a group of people; it is a mishmash about different groups of people, that some of our editors have tossed together. It is unfortunate, and it is embarassing. Almost all of the content already exists in better articles. Short of deletion, I could see a short "Who Is Black?" article serving as a disambiguation page. Jd2718 19:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
What does that actually mean? And how does it fit into the context of this article? It seems to stand alone here as having little relevance, and I can't think of a single way to support this claim, even if the person being indirectly quoted actually did say it. - Che Nuevara 04:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
renaming the ethiopian page i dont think was correct because it makes one person look very heavy in the def of black people so it isnt justified because he is one person with one opinion.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
12:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at the refernces, ref 9 ref 32 what is going on? can this be cleaned up and some standard proper referencing format be used for the entire article so it stands up as a pro job?
i noticed that because it has been very quite, everyone is giving up, all the fire is gone.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
01:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been busy with finals and stomach flu, but I haven't lost interest in this article. What does everyone think about the article on Social construction? Is it an adequate canopy article for this one? Or are there things that need to be added to it so that it will provide an adequate understanding for the background of this article? P0M 06:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The gallery includes the following phrases:
"This article is about the different definitions of the term "black people"." If this is true, these sorts of weasel words cut against the very thing that this article purports to be about. I am deleting the gallery. Jd2718 02:28, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I say leave it and make it better, now the page is boring, just fix it and add some more "black" people, without the weasel words.--
HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ)
20:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I will assume that if there are holes in any of the canopies I refer to below then editors will come forth to comment on them, and, hopefully, will patch them in appropriate ways.
One of the reasons for controversy and challenges to the neutrality of this article, implicitly mentioned in the article already, is that "Black people" is a social construct. I cannot think off hand of another category that would seem to have a "label" built right into the "product." If you view "black" as one set and "people" as another set, then "black people" ought to be the intersection of the two sets. As we have seen on this discussion page, people object vehemently to that simplistic view, and do so on various grounds.
The first element of the social construct may be the dark skins of humans who are well adapted to withstand high levels of UV. A "black" skin is the most easily perceived trait of the various groups of people that various observers call "black people." A minor problem with talking about this element is that the de facto definition of the word "black" is different from the definition the word is given in physics. It is helpful to realize that the definition actually used by most people corresponds more closely to what artists who work in oil paints and other such pigments call a "shade," i.e. a "darker shade" of any color on the artist's palette is obtained by mixing in some amount of a truly black substance like carbon black. As observers we are more sure that something is a "shade" of some color when the percentage of black pigment is high, and more doubtful about as sequentially less intense shades of that color are encountered. I would not, for instance, assert with much confidence that some of the photographs of "black" people that Filll provided had black pigment on their palettes. Those people, a very much lighter shade of dark, are accepted by some as "Black people", and yet the same judges may reject much darker people from S.E. Asia, so just discussing the dark skins does not adequately describe what some people mean by "Black people", so we have to take their criteria into account. (Factual component 1: pigments present in the skin.)
The second element of the social construct, at least for many people who use the term "Black people," appears to be close genetic connection to some but not all of the current populations of Africa. Without splitting hairs, it is easy to see what the intent and reasoning is here. The original inhabitants of Africa (L1, L2, and L3) all seem to be accepted as founding populations for the populations that are accepted as "Black Africans" today, and it is membership in the "Black African" family tree that is for many a sine qua non for membership in their version of the "Black people" category. Just as there is a kind of logical fuzziness with the idea of "black" coloration, there is also a kind of logical fuzziness with the idea of membership in the "Black African" family tree. The fundamental question is what status is appropriate for a person one of whose parents descends from a long line of ancestors isolated in "darkest Africa," and the other of whose parents descends from a long line of ancestors from some far part of the world, the Taiwanese aborigines for instance. (Factual component 2: genetic heritage of the individual.)
The third element of the social construct, and one that I haven't mentioned before, is actually a group of learned behaviors -- things such as language, group-specific behavioral cues to group membership (hair styles, affective display conventions, dances and music, etc.). (I am reminded of being with my friends, the owners of a fruit stand in Taipei, their kids, and some of their frequent customers, when an American-born Chinese was being interviewed in Chinese on Chinese TV. His Mandarin was good, but his body language was totally aberrant--for a Chinese--because he was gesticulating "wildly" as any American teenager might. My friends seemed torn between being highly amused and being creeped out. I had the flip side of that experience one time watching a teenager approach a low-rise apartment building on a bike. I assumed he was an "Army brat" who was far off course and I was just speculating how a kid could get ten miles off course on a three-speed bike when he jumped off his bike and shouted toward a third-floor window, "Mama, wo hui lai le!" (Mom. I'm back!) He suddenly went from what he looked like (typical American teenager) to what he sounded like (typical Chinese teenager). He continued to look American, but I could tell in an instant that he hadn't been raised that way. Chinese people going back to around 200 BC would have predicted just this result whenever a "barbarian" child is raised in a Chinese household, or vice-versa. Just read Xun Zi.) (Factual component 3: ethnic heritage of the individual.)
Unless somebody can point out how these three factors fail the test of fairness in explaining how various groups conceptualize "Black people," I am going to add something to the intro paragraph to indicate that "Black people" is a family of concepts that involves a certain range of skin pigmentation, a certain range of genetic heritage, and a collection of ethnicities. P0M 07:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
The Biblical section in question does not "define" blacks. It is important that what Genesis 9 actually says is presented. The section has plenty of info about what other groups or doctrines claim but what is the detail of the Biblical narrative itself? This info is directly relevant because Genesis makes no definition of blacks based on skin color or race. This is in contrast to assorted teachings that attempt to impose some racial hierarchy on the ancient narrative, but it contains no such hierarchies for 2 reeasons: (a) the "curse of Ham" relates to a prediction that was to befall certain Caananite peoples- conquest by ex-slaves out of Egypt. It does not mention any blacks or slavery at all. (b) As for the supposed inferiority of the Hamitic peoples, the Biblical narrative suggests the direct opposite. The highly civilized Egyptians, the powerful empire builder Nimrod of Cush, and the sophiscated urban and trade civilization of certain Caananite peoples clearly demolish any such claims. A lot of info on the section deals bounces back and forth with a wide range of scattered statements, like Jehovah Witness doctrine. The detail of the "original" source narrative needs to be clearly stated and presented before launching into these scattered fragments. Also, the book- Redford, Donald B. Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times (referenced in the article) provides scholarly background, and discusses traditional peoples and their associations- such as Mizraim (Egypt) Cush (Ethiopia, Sheba, Seba, Yemen) plus Libya, and Caanan (today's Palestine). Enriquecardova 09:28, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I found an informative and very well researched study based on physical characteristics of all human types in general; and the following link is a page mostly based on those defined universally as Blacks. Since we can't copy the image and use it here, I think we can get ideas out of it, and maybe use real photos rather than drawings if possible. I don't want to recommend linking to it since it would seem more like a free advertisement of it because this isn't exactly an official website based on that sort of stuff. Anyway here it is:
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/34877428/ click on the thumbnail to enlarge it.