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I propose we contract the title article to Bleople and start a new trend. Let us make linguistic history-- Cupidon 14:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Please try to contain yourself. If you are from country X, and you are of African origin, what is wrong with African-X? Good heavens. Or maybe you are trying to make some kind of joke, like many people on this page. -- Filll 20:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
And why should I not ask a person of African ancestry how dark they are? Because this is a source of internal tension in the "black" community. Well, well. Isn't that interesting? Just like American blacks brand each other as high yellow or cafe au lait or oreos etc. Obsessed with tiny variations of color. However, I am glad to see we agree on something, namely:
It is a social construct. It often has very little to do with color. I agree completely. However, you make some other very strange statements:
Well you should care what they do in the UK because WIKIPEDIA IS NOT ONLY FOR ThE USA. Do you understand that this is a global enterprise? You can hold your breath until you turn blue, but it is not for the US only. So give it up. And that is one of the most inflammatory statements I have ever heard, that the UK does just what the US tells them to do. Also, have you ever looked at the UK census rules? Well I have. The categories in 2001 were:
And guess what? In the UK, you can be Caribbean black, African black or other kinds of black. And guess what people chose in 2001? About 665,000 chose Caribbean black, about 544,000 chose African black and about 121,000 chose other kinds of black. So it does not sound like your claims are that accurate, once again. However, typical usage in the media and by the police and other government agencies, including the general public is to use black to refer to south Asians. You also state that
Oh so there is a serious penalty for a South Asian to call themselves black? I guess that explains why 390,000 people in the UK claimed they had a religion of "Jedi Knight". And it is against the law with serious penalties for an Asian to call themselves black, the same serious lawbreaking I would be engaged in if I misidentified myself on the US census? Have you looked at the Australian Census rules? They have done a lot of fine tuning, removing the use of the words "race" or "racial" to try to avoid offending anyone, and finding that this produced much better compliance. Also, you would not be called "black" or even African under Australian Census rules, but lumped in with other Americans and Canadians, according to their rules published in 2000. Hmmm...Also, it sounds pretty elitist and obnoxious for you to call people that disagree with you "ignorant commoners" and "redneck Australians". Not much different than you playing the race card against people that dare to disagree with you. The term "black" or its equivalent in other languages has been around a long time. For example, H. Imbert, a French anthropologist reported:
Some speculate that there were blacks in Japan before the Japanese arrived from Korea. There is a Japanese proverb which states: "For a Samurai to be brave, he must have a bit of Black blood." Another recording of the proverb is: "Half the blood in one's veins must be Black to make a good Samurai." It is fine that a few African Americans decided they would use the word "black" because they were tired of "negro" and "colored". But I notice that they did not change the names of the NAACP and the United Negro College Fund.-- Filll 05:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
From Kobrakid: But it's okay to violate the purity of the African ancestry people
What the heck does THIS mean? How "pure" do you think the "African ancestry people" are? Starts to sound a little bit like the pure Aryan race of the Nazis. Or like that great quote from Dr. Strangelove, about the
Comparing other editors to nazis. That's a real sign of intelligence Fill. Yup, you're really interested in maintaining an intellectually honest civil debate. So not only have my people been subject to far more opression than any other group, but now we're being compared to some of the worst oppressors of all, and all because we want the same right to a unique global ethnicty that every other ethnic group on earth has. You take the term "pure" out of context and try to call me a nazi. Your cheap political tricks don't scare me. BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kobrakid 21:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Why always compare racists to Nazis, the true and actual menace continues to be the Communists, i.e. Castro, Chavez, Morales, Zapatero, etc...The fact that Communists are less racist means they are only more dangerous cause it makes their spread and acceptance more possible (though it is ironic to be sure).-- Cupidon 22:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I just took that race test you provided. It was fun and entertaining but not particularly relevant. The photos they asked us to classify were not randomly selected. It's very easy to find exceptions to a general rule and then conclude that the rule is not valid, but you could use such faulty logic to disprove anything. The people they selected for that test were selected BECAUSE they are hard to classify. It wasn't a random sample. If I took a photo of the first 20 people who walked into a shopping mall and then asked each one what their race is, and then created a test on-line, I guarantee people would score close to 100% on my test. Why? Because my test would be based on a random selection of people. I would not be selecting the most hard to classify, most racially ambiguous people I could find, just to make a point. The people in the test you cited represent probably less than 1% of the population. The vast majority of us are very easy to classify Kobrakid
So this is how I see it. There is no consensus here and we have two very different points of view. We need to include both points of view, I don't care if some people are "offended" by this, it is clear that wikipedia policy encourages all significan points of view. There is no doubt that the point of view that Black people do indeed form a "race" that is of recent West African origin is prevelant in North America, all of the genetic data used are used from this point of view. So I suggest we broadly split the article into two. We have a section about the idea that Black people are a specific people with recent origins in West Africa, we can include much of the genetic data and other definitions of this more exclusive concept in this section. Then we have an equal section wich gives the other point of view, that Black is also used, usually outside of North America to mean diverse and non related groups of people from various parts of the world that happen to share the traight of having dark skin. Given that we have to include all points if view I don't see that there should be a problem with this. There is no point in arguing about who is right or wrong, there is no right and wrong, there are merely different points of view. We could even have two sets of galleries. How does this sound? Alun 06:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I also will note that when I lived in the New York Metropolitan area, it was very common for Jamaicans to call the much lighter skinned African Americans as "blacks". Jamaicans were not called black or regarded as blacks by anyone, including African Americans or the media. In fact, it was common for Jamaican parents to warn their Jamaican children to stay away from the "blacks", referring to the light skinned African Americans. And there were battles between gangs of Jamaicans and "blacks". So this is another example of how NOBODY AGREES ON WHAT IS A BLACK and also that black is often just a social construct. Also from the talk page of African American we see thes e contributions:
and from an African, speaking of the term "black":
Also:
Now as I survey these and other things, the only conclusion I can reach is what I have said over and over:NO ONE AGREES ON THE DEFINITION OF BLACK PEOPLE.-- Filll 07:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't get your point, you mention some black people (Jamaicans) calling other black people black but not wanting to be called themselves black. What's your point? Anyway in Spain we don't have Jamaicans (at least not many), though many people do like Bob Marley, but I still miss your point entirely. Let's keep the perspective global like someone said. Also in Spanish we differentiate between moros and negros, most people seem to prefer negros over moros and affectionately call them negritos, little black ones, moros on the other hand are almost universally detested which is strange in a way since they're less dark.-- Cupidon 07:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Alun is completely correct. I guess I have to keep repeating my point: NO ONE AGREES ON WHO iS BLACK. What is it about that statement that you have a problem with, or are not quite understanding?-- Filll 07:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Cupidon. Also his point about moros and negros is very pertinent and describes well the reality of Spain. I would only add that moros doesn't necessarily mean moorish it rather means now brown person, usually originally from India, Pakistan, Egypt, Las Filipinas, sometimes dark Arabs, to be sure Moroccans and Tunisians, and mulatos. It does not includes Lebanese people, Iranians, Syrians or Armenians, these we call turcos.Regards.-- Magencio 12:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I know about Spain. I spent two weeks in Spain. I know that there are many people with very white skin in Spain, but there are also those with more olive or swarthy skin. I am not confused about the difference between Spanish speaking Mexicans and South Americans and Spanish people from Spain. And I am not kidding when I say that many American "blacks" are lighter than many people from Spain. And that some Americans might definitely view some Spanish people, even from Spain, as "dark skinned" or even use racial epithets to that effect. -- Filll 19:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Melanin D. Ficiente /Ed Poor, I think you get it. It is sometimes (not always) more of a social construct. But not everyone agrees. Which is why I say:THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED DEFINITION OF BLACK PEOPLE.-- Filll 19:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
You just want to do what? Rewrite the article so it only applies to African Americans? Then I have a suggestion for you. Go to African Americans. Easy? -- Filll 00:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I am calm. I am positive that these are the same "falangist" characters. I still have not decided if the "falangists" are just pulling our legs or not. But I figured there is no problem with pulling their legs back, since they seem to be so worried about "blacks" and impure races. Spaniards are viewed in a certain manner, and I might as well be honest with them. And see how they like it.-- Filll 19:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
"The other other black background" on the UK census is not for Asutalian aboriginals or South Asians. It's for people of African ancestry who don't fit any of the previously listed categories. There's not a census in the world that classifies Australian aboriginals as Black.__ Whatdoyou 23:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Wow. I am impressed by your incredible powers of reasoning. Yes you really got me. You have proved me wrong. Wow.-- Filll 00:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
You go right on believing that. I am sure whitie is doing something bad behind your back right now. Watch out for dem crackers ! -- Filll 00:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Yep, that is it. You got me. I am sure everyone can tell. -- Filll 01:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what Whatdoyou's point is. I can find no evidence that what he is saying is correct. It does not say anywhere that "Other Black" is exclusively for people of recent African descent. It does not say it on the BBC article he points out, the BBC article nowhere says that Black people are only considered of recent African descent. Could you point out or quote this section please, because I cannot find it at all and I've just read it twice.. Other Black means Other Black, it can include people of recent African descent, for sure, no one ever said that people of recent African descent can't respond there. Likewise anyone identifying as Other Black can also respond there. The UK census does not collect racial data, but ethnic data. If I felt, as a white man, that I was "ethnically Black" (I might have been adopted by Black parents for example and brought up in Black society and culture) then I could respond as a Black person. I understand that this is a reductio ad absurdum argument, but it is true. I really don't understand what you think you have proved, but your "evidence" doesn't support your claim. The only reference I can find in the article is this statement Much of the growth in the ethnic minority population was in African, Bangledishi and Pakistani communities. This is about people actually from Africa. So what exactly is your point? In the UK anyone that consideres themselves a Black person can respond in one of the three groups for Black people. I can find no document anywhere that states that this section is only for people of African descent, the BBC article does not claim this. Alun 07:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Is this a "No Exit" case? Is there no way out of this imbroglio? If so, what is the problem?
Western culture is strongly geared to dichotomizing. We not only "tomize," we even imply that there are natural divisions in the structure of the Universe. If you start out believing that there are discrete entities where none exist then one spends time trying to bring unity where none is perceived, and to explain a jagged collection of disparate beings in the "uni-verse."
莊子 (Zhuang Zi, or "Chuang Tzu" if you're a bit old-fashioned) saw past the Platonism that distorts our own thinking. His description of the myriad phenomenal beings in the universe was "大同小異" (da tong xiao yi), which basically means that on the whole everything is the same and that in respect of minor features everything is different.
All of this was brought to mind when something started nagging at my unconscious: There is no pre-existing boundary between "black people" and "non-black people." Every person who asserts that a boundary exists has determined what that boundary shall be for him or her. Having decided for myself where that boundary is, I then naturally tend to reject the boundaries drawn in other places by other people.
If we ever recover DNA from the earliest group of Homo sapiens sapiens we will discover that not a single one of u s is "black" on the basis of that standard, and except for the aliens who monitor this debate (C'mon bems, 'fess up!) we are all "black" to some extent.
How do you crowd all of the content about all of the "lighter shades of dark" into a single article? The first step is to outline the essential problem discussed here. Then second step is to farm out broad sub-groups to subsidiary articles. (Maybe one article for each group on the C-S square chart) P0M 00:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
We could all leave this article except for various extremists. And let you beat each other silly. Because you do not agree with each other, in case you had not noticed. Or we could divide the article up into different POV, which I gather is against Wikipedia policies. I am not sure how to keep you calm. However, I have seen examples of your reasoning above, and I do not really know what to say to you in light of that.-- Filll 00:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Somehow it is hard for me to take these tantrums seriously. I think you make about as much sense as our friends the falangists.-- Filll 01:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I would prefer an article with a wide variety of viewpoints, including useful scientific and cultural information, and for it to be written without the editors ripping each other to shreds. And you cannot tell who is black or not, or who is African American or not, among the editors. I am a minority, but that should not matter in writing this article. And we have lots more. And guess what? They still do not agree with each other. But you are free to believe that if you want.-- Filll 01:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I have not seen evidence of this. What did wobble do? What movement does he have going on? And the article still does not have much modern scientific material in it, and balancing viewpoints. It mostly reads like a rant from some black racists angry at the world.-- Filll 01:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course, science and genetics and anthropology have no bearing whatsoever on an article about a race. Yes that makes a lot of sense.-- Filll 01:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
One of the consequences of defining "black people" very narrowly is that it would eliminate Afro-Americans. And defining it even more narrowly would split off the non-San people from what may arguably be the direct line of descent of the earliest Homo sapiens sapiens population.
I just found another neat map, one that uses genetic information to show how we are all related. P0M 01:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
That last comment, edited out by Ezeu, definitely demonstrates that these guys are just trying to make a few jokes and pull our legs. There is no way they are serious. The problem with trying to be funny like that is if you go a bit too far, it becomes obvious that you are not serious. Next time, try to not to go to such extremes because you ruin the joke. Some of the other comments I see here as well are so outrageous and extreme that I do not believe they are real either. Just a good place to come and make fun of others I guess. But it would be nice to write an article too. -- Filll 04:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Well maybe. But the last statement was so outrageous and so over the top that it is difficult to believe that anyone would truly hold those views. -- Filll 12:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The only reason the article is "stable" is that for the last few months it has either been locked for weeks on end because there was so much fighting over it, and people edit-warring, or a cadre of reverters has been blocking any change to the article at all. It probably took me 10 tries to get a tiny bit of corrected grammar into the article because there was so much reverting. I think this article needs to get some more attention from new editors because it reads poorly, it is unbalanced, it is missing a lot of material and has only limited scientific material in it. Wikipedia articles not supposed to be recruiting tools for either white racists or black supremacists. So lets try not to push for either extreme so hard.-- Filll 04:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
It is in no way my intention to offend any of the people who have so far contributed to this article, but I am going to be honest and direct, as it stands the piece is a joke and a foul cross between a pc banner and an amateurish and outmoded collection of subpar "race" articles that have been circulating freely through the internet for years. Also, I second Lukas19 in protesting the grotesque demonizing and nazi-izing of certain editors by other editors, this is simply intolerable by any standards. As to the topic in question: I think the obvious course to take—in dealing with a subject of such controversy—is a conservative one that remains centered around a core definition of blackness or negressence as an essentially sub-Saharan African designation or classification; one that to be sure is shared by the greater (sub-Saharan) diaspora principally located in the Americas and Europe. The gallery as it stands is, to put it bluntly, a gallery of freaks (in the Baroque sense of excentric examples) and in no way an accurate representation of the majority of blacks (an extremely varied group to be sure), and yet I think it could be saved if we were to "populate it" with representative "faces" of some of the more important African ethnic groups, this would I think prove extremely enlightening to a great number of people who upon hearing the word black picture some "notorious" African-American rapper, athlete, or, yes, murderer. My general impression is that reason and logic long ago fell by the wayside during what has become an increasingly tortuous definitional odyssey. (For those who are wondering: yes I do belong to the dreaded "Falangists" and this is an assumed name I will be changing periodically as a precaution against those who futilely think they can block and ban the truth). Cheers, note I have tried to communicate this in the most neutral tone possible.-- SanIsidro 07:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I took a look at the "Black supremacy" article mentioned above. It looks good to me.
I also looked for an article on "African people" but what I found forwarded to Africa. Somewhat surprisingly, the discussion there has little to do with genetics and much to do with ethnicity, languages, political divisions, etc.
There seems at this time to be little information regarding the interconnections among the various population groups in Africa depicted in the charts already on this page. Wells thinks that the San and related languages are possibly the most archaic of any on earth since no other languages (except one or two in Africa that may have imported some vocabulary items) use the so-called "click" sounds.
The original "starburst" appears to occur in Africa, with some components heading toward the interior of Africa and some heading out of Africa through the Mid-East. One way to divide an article would be to follow each of these paths. P0M 17:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Filll 19:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't agree with you more, Jews and blacks do have a lot in common.-- SanIsidro 19:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Whatdoyou's recent edits to the intro of Black people beg the question of what "Black people" actually means by defining it to mean people of (biologically recent) African ancestry. A central point of the article is that there is no generally accepted consensus about what "Black people" means, and by defining it in the intro of the article, you either create a circular argument, or much of the article would have to be deleted, as the discussion of other concepts of Black people would necessarily be moot. -- The Anome 18:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
There's more than 1 definition of black people so the articles should be separated based on definition to avoid needless confusion and edit warring. This article can focus on Black as an ethnic term and I created a separate article to focus on black as a dark skin color identity__ Whatdoyou 18:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I don't understand what the problem is with dividing the article up into the 2 types of definitions. This article can focus on all the debates about how much African ancestry is required to be considered Black (the standards vary enormous from America to Brazil). The other article can focus on black as a term for a dark skin. We're talking about 2 totally different things, so why not have 2 totally different artticles? Cardriver 18:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
What if we had a template for black and african people articles that looked like [2]? For blacks, what articles would you include? I have some ideas off the top of my head but there are probably many others. I might suggest:
What do you think?-- Filll 20:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Fill. We should separate this article into 2 articles: Black people (those of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry) and dark skinned people (people who are dark in skin color regardless of whether they are from Africa or not) Gottoupload 23:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that this article ( Black as a skin color identity) was created for those who want to use the braoder definition of Black. But Black is most commonly used exclusively to describe those belonging to a group characterized by recent sub-Saharan ancestry. This is one of the world's biggest ethnic groups and one of the world's most vocal users of the term black. An entire article focused on black being used in that context makes sense. Gottoupload 00:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
According to this article, the names of ethnic groups should be capitalized[ [3]]. So here's a solution, how about 2 separate articles. One called Black people with a capital B, and the other called black people with a lower case B. So all the people who are interested in writing about the people of African descent who define the black ethnic group, can write the capiatl B Black people article, and all the people who are interested in writing about all dark skiined groups collectively can edit the lower case B black people article.
Because the 2 terms have very different meaning and were created for very different purposes. For example Australian aboriginals are black (with a small b) but they're not Black (with a big B) Michael Jackson is Black (with a big B) but since his skin has become lighter he's no longer black (with a small b). Now within the subject of Black people (with a big B) there are all kinds of controversies about who is black, so there are enough topics to argue over without giving us the added burder of mixing 2 completely different definitions of B/black into the same article Gottoupload 00:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm coming in late here, but I'm guessing this idea might fall foul of POV fork. Certainly the articles would have to be very carefully written and titled. I'd seriously consider trying to get wider community input here, an WP:RFC or similar. exolon 01:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
This page was duplicated/forked to Black people (ethnicity) today with the apparent intention to split the article into two separate topics. Please discuss whether this is necessary on that article's talk page. Thanks! -- Dachannien Talk Contrib 01:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a consensus for my capital B idea so just redirect the black ethnicty article to Black people (with a capital B) since they're about the same thing Gottoupload 01:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Using capitals is not a very clear method of distinguishing different articles. Changing the wording is simpler. Muntuwandi 01:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
black is not an ethnic group, it is a lay term for non-White people, there is no ethnic group called black anywhere in the world. Capital B makes sense because English Caps Names, Jew, Muslim, John, Peter, Sudan. black is a color, Black is the above.-- Halaqah 11:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Ethnicity simply means people who are from the same part of the world. Black (ethnicity) describes people of equatorial African origin (not West African only). Not sure why Alun wants to separate the black ethnic group in to many different ethnic groups. We don't see it that way.__ Whatdoyou 15:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
We now have 3 articles. This one, the 'capital b' one and the 'ethnicity' one. If this keeps up the admins are very likely to blow the forks out of the water and push everyone back into here to thrash it out on the talk page. If this keeps up we'll have a version of 'black people' for every editor/school of thought and thats a POV fork violation for sure. exolon 01:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll try to redirect the ethnicity one to the capital b article Gottoupload 01:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
I propose we contract the title article to Bleople and start a new trend. Let us make linguistic history-- Cupidon 14:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Please try to contain yourself. If you are from country X, and you are of African origin, what is wrong with African-X? Good heavens. Or maybe you are trying to make some kind of joke, like many people on this page. -- Filll 20:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
And why should I not ask a person of African ancestry how dark they are? Because this is a source of internal tension in the "black" community. Well, well. Isn't that interesting? Just like American blacks brand each other as high yellow or cafe au lait or oreos etc. Obsessed with tiny variations of color. However, I am glad to see we agree on something, namely:
It is a social construct. It often has very little to do with color. I agree completely. However, you make some other very strange statements:
Well you should care what they do in the UK because WIKIPEDIA IS NOT ONLY FOR ThE USA. Do you understand that this is a global enterprise? You can hold your breath until you turn blue, but it is not for the US only. So give it up. And that is one of the most inflammatory statements I have ever heard, that the UK does just what the US tells them to do. Also, have you ever looked at the UK census rules? Well I have. The categories in 2001 were:
And guess what? In the UK, you can be Caribbean black, African black or other kinds of black. And guess what people chose in 2001? About 665,000 chose Caribbean black, about 544,000 chose African black and about 121,000 chose other kinds of black. So it does not sound like your claims are that accurate, once again. However, typical usage in the media and by the police and other government agencies, including the general public is to use black to refer to south Asians. You also state that
Oh so there is a serious penalty for a South Asian to call themselves black? I guess that explains why 390,000 people in the UK claimed they had a religion of "Jedi Knight". And it is against the law with serious penalties for an Asian to call themselves black, the same serious lawbreaking I would be engaged in if I misidentified myself on the US census? Have you looked at the Australian Census rules? They have done a lot of fine tuning, removing the use of the words "race" or "racial" to try to avoid offending anyone, and finding that this produced much better compliance. Also, you would not be called "black" or even African under Australian Census rules, but lumped in with other Americans and Canadians, according to their rules published in 2000. Hmmm...Also, it sounds pretty elitist and obnoxious for you to call people that disagree with you "ignorant commoners" and "redneck Australians". Not much different than you playing the race card against people that dare to disagree with you. The term "black" or its equivalent in other languages has been around a long time. For example, H. Imbert, a French anthropologist reported:
Some speculate that there were blacks in Japan before the Japanese arrived from Korea. There is a Japanese proverb which states: "For a Samurai to be brave, he must have a bit of Black blood." Another recording of the proverb is: "Half the blood in one's veins must be Black to make a good Samurai." It is fine that a few African Americans decided they would use the word "black" because they were tired of "negro" and "colored". But I notice that they did not change the names of the NAACP and the United Negro College Fund.-- Filll 05:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
From Kobrakid: But it's okay to violate the purity of the African ancestry people
What the heck does THIS mean? How "pure" do you think the "African ancestry people" are? Starts to sound a little bit like the pure Aryan race of the Nazis. Or like that great quote from Dr. Strangelove, about the
Comparing other editors to nazis. That's a real sign of intelligence Fill. Yup, you're really interested in maintaining an intellectually honest civil debate. So not only have my people been subject to far more opression than any other group, but now we're being compared to some of the worst oppressors of all, and all because we want the same right to a unique global ethnicty that every other ethnic group on earth has. You take the term "pure" out of context and try to call me a nazi. Your cheap political tricks don't scare me. BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kobrakid 21:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Why always compare racists to Nazis, the true and actual menace continues to be the Communists, i.e. Castro, Chavez, Morales, Zapatero, etc...The fact that Communists are less racist means they are only more dangerous cause it makes their spread and acceptance more possible (though it is ironic to be sure).-- Cupidon 22:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I just took that race test you provided. It was fun and entertaining but not particularly relevant. The photos they asked us to classify were not randomly selected. It's very easy to find exceptions to a general rule and then conclude that the rule is not valid, but you could use such faulty logic to disprove anything. The people they selected for that test were selected BECAUSE they are hard to classify. It wasn't a random sample. If I took a photo of the first 20 people who walked into a shopping mall and then asked each one what their race is, and then created a test on-line, I guarantee people would score close to 100% on my test. Why? Because my test would be based on a random selection of people. I would not be selecting the most hard to classify, most racially ambiguous people I could find, just to make a point. The people in the test you cited represent probably less than 1% of the population. The vast majority of us are very easy to classify Kobrakid
So this is how I see it. There is no consensus here and we have two very different points of view. We need to include both points of view, I don't care if some people are "offended" by this, it is clear that wikipedia policy encourages all significan points of view. There is no doubt that the point of view that Black people do indeed form a "race" that is of recent West African origin is prevelant in North America, all of the genetic data used are used from this point of view. So I suggest we broadly split the article into two. We have a section about the idea that Black people are a specific people with recent origins in West Africa, we can include much of the genetic data and other definitions of this more exclusive concept in this section. Then we have an equal section wich gives the other point of view, that Black is also used, usually outside of North America to mean diverse and non related groups of people from various parts of the world that happen to share the traight of having dark skin. Given that we have to include all points if view I don't see that there should be a problem with this. There is no point in arguing about who is right or wrong, there is no right and wrong, there are merely different points of view. We could even have two sets of galleries. How does this sound? Alun 06:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I also will note that when I lived in the New York Metropolitan area, it was very common for Jamaicans to call the much lighter skinned African Americans as "blacks". Jamaicans were not called black or regarded as blacks by anyone, including African Americans or the media. In fact, it was common for Jamaican parents to warn their Jamaican children to stay away from the "blacks", referring to the light skinned African Americans. And there were battles between gangs of Jamaicans and "blacks". So this is another example of how NOBODY AGREES ON WHAT IS A BLACK and also that black is often just a social construct. Also from the talk page of African American we see thes e contributions:
and from an African, speaking of the term "black":
Also:
Now as I survey these and other things, the only conclusion I can reach is what I have said over and over:NO ONE AGREES ON THE DEFINITION OF BLACK PEOPLE.-- Filll 07:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't get your point, you mention some black people (Jamaicans) calling other black people black but not wanting to be called themselves black. What's your point? Anyway in Spain we don't have Jamaicans (at least not many), though many people do like Bob Marley, but I still miss your point entirely. Let's keep the perspective global like someone said. Also in Spanish we differentiate between moros and negros, most people seem to prefer negros over moros and affectionately call them negritos, little black ones, moros on the other hand are almost universally detested which is strange in a way since they're less dark.-- Cupidon 07:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Alun is completely correct. I guess I have to keep repeating my point: NO ONE AGREES ON WHO iS BLACK. What is it about that statement that you have a problem with, or are not quite understanding?-- Filll 07:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Cupidon. Also his point about moros and negros is very pertinent and describes well the reality of Spain. I would only add that moros doesn't necessarily mean moorish it rather means now brown person, usually originally from India, Pakistan, Egypt, Las Filipinas, sometimes dark Arabs, to be sure Moroccans and Tunisians, and mulatos. It does not includes Lebanese people, Iranians, Syrians or Armenians, these we call turcos.Regards.-- Magencio 12:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I know about Spain. I spent two weeks in Spain. I know that there are many people with very white skin in Spain, but there are also those with more olive or swarthy skin. I am not confused about the difference between Spanish speaking Mexicans and South Americans and Spanish people from Spain. And I am not kidding when I say that many American "blacks" are lighter than many people from Spain. And that some Americans might definitely view some Spanish people, even from Spain, as "dark skinned" or even use racial epithets to that effect. -- Filll 19:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Melanin D. Ficiente /Ed Poor, I think you get it. It is sometimes (not always) more of a social construct. But not everyone agrees. Which is why I say:THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED DEFINITION OF BLACK PEOPLE.-- Filll 19:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
You just want to do what? Rewrite the article so it only applies to African Americans? Then I have a suggestion for you. Go to African Americans. Easy? -- Filll 00:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I am calm. I am positive that these are the same "falangist" characters. I still have not decided if the "falangists" are just pulling our legs or not. But I figured there is no problem with pulling their legs back, since they seem to be so worried about "blacks" and impure races. Spaniards are viewed in a certain manner, and I might as well be honest with them. And see how they like it.-- Filll 19:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
"The other other black background" on the UK census is not for Asutalian aboriginals or South Asians. It's for people of African ancestry who don't fit any of the previously listed categories. There's not a census in the world that classifies Australian aboriginals as Black.__ Whatdoyou 23:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Wow. I am impressed by your incredible powers of reasoning. Yes you really got me. You have proved me wrong. Wow.-- Filll 00:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
You go right on believing that. I am sure whitie is doing something bad behind your back right now. Watch out for dem crackers ! -- Filll 00:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Yep, that is it. You got me. I am sure everyone can tell. -- Filll 01:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what Whatdoyou's point is. I can find no evidence that what he is saying is correct. It does not say anywhere that "Other Black" is exclusively for people of recent African descent. It does not say it on the BBC article he points out, the BBC article nowhere says that Black people are only considered of recent African descent. Could you point out or quote this section please, because I cannot find it at all and I've just read it twice.. Other Black means Other Black, it can include people of recent African descent, for sure, no one ever said that people of recent African descent can't respond there. Likewise anyone identifying as Other Black can also respond there. The UK census does not collect racial data, but ethnic data. If I felt, as a white man, that I was "ethnically Black" (I might have been adopted by Black parents for example and brought up in Black society and culture) then I could respond as a Black person. I understand that this is a reductio ad absurdum argument, but it is true. I really don't understand what you think you have proved, but your "evidence" doesn't support your claim. The only reference I can find in the article is this statement Much of the growth in the ethnic minority population was in African, Bangledishi and Pakistani communities. This is about people actually from Africa. So what exactly is your point? In the UK anyone that consideres themselves a Black person can respond in one of the three groups for Black people. I can find no document anywhere that states that this section is only for people of African descent, the BBC article does not claim this. Alun 07:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Is this a "No Exit" case? Is there no way out of this imbroglio? If so, what is the problem?
Western culture is strongly geared to dichotomizing. We not only "tomize," we even imply that there are natural divisions in the structure of the Universe. If you start out believing that there are discrete entities where none exist then one spends time trying to bring unity where none is perceived, and to explain a jagged collection of disparate beings in the "uni-verse."
莊子 (Zhuang Zi, or "Chuang Tzu" if you're a bit old-fashioned) saw past the Platonism that distorts our own thinking. His description of the myriad phenomenal beings in the universe was "大同小異" (da tong xiao yi), which basically means that on the whole everything is the same and that in respect of minor features everything is different.
All of this was brought to mind when something started nagging at my unconscious: There is no pre-existing boundary between "black people" and "non-black people." Every person who asserts that a boundary exists has determined what that boundary shall be for him or her. Having decided for myself where that boundary is, I then naturally tend to reject the boundaries drawn in other places by other people.
If we ever recover DNA from the earliest group of Homo sapiens sapiens we will discover that not a single one of u s is "black" on the basis of that standard, and except for the aliens who monitor this debate (C'mon bems, 'fess up!) we are all "black" to some extent.
How do you crowd all of the content about all of the "lighter shades of dark" into a single article? The first step is to outline the essential problem discussed here. Then second step is to farm out broad sub-groups to subsidiary articles. (Maybe one article for each group on the C-S square chart) P0M 00:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
We could all leave this article except for various extremists. And let you beat each other silly. Because you do not agree with each other, in case you had not noticed. Or we could divide the article up into different POV, which I gather is against Wikipedia policies. I am not sure how to keep you calm. However, I have seen examples of your reasoning above, and I do not really know what to say to you in light of that.-- Filll 00:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Somehow it is hard for me to take these tantrums seriously. I think you make about as much sense as our friends the falangists.-- Filll 01:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I would prefer an article with a wide variety of viewpoints, including useful scientific and cultural information, and for it to be written without the editors ripping each other to shreds. And you cannot tell who is black or not, or who is African American or not, among the editors. I am a minority, but that should not matter in writing this article. And we have lots more. And guess what? They still do not agree with each other. But you are free to believe that if you want.-- Filll 01:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I have not seen evidence of this. What did wobble do? What movement does he have going on? And the article still does not have much modern scientific material in it, and balancing viewpoints. It mostly reads like a rant from some black racists angry at the world.-- Filll 01:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course, science and genetics and anthropology have no bearing whatsoever on an article about a race. Yes that makes a lot of sense.-- Filll 01:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
One of the consequences of defining "black people" very narrowly is that it would eliminate Afro-Americans. And defining it even more narrowly would split off the non-San people from what may arguably be the direct line of descent of the earliest Homo sapiens sapiens population.
I just found another neat map, one that uses genetic information to show how we are all related. P0M 01:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
That last comment, edited out by Ezeu, definitely demonstrates that these guys are just trying to make a few jokes and pull our legs. There is no way they are serious. The problem with trying to be funny like that is if you go a bit too far, it becomes obvious that you are not serious. Next time, try to not to go to such extremes because you ruin the joke. Some of the other comments I see here as well are so outrageous and extreme that I do not believe they are real either. Just a good place to come and make fun of others I guess. But it would be nice to write an article too. -- Filll 04:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Well maybe. But the last statement was so outrageous and so over the top that it is difficult to believe that anyone would truly hold those views. -- Filll 12:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The only reason the article is "stable" is that for the last few months it has either been locked for weeks on end because there was so much fighting over it, and people edit-warring, or a cadre of reverters has been blocking any change to the article at all. It probably took me 10 tries to get a tiny bit of corrected grammar into the article because there was so much reverting. I think this article needs to get some more attention from new editors because it reads poorly, it is unbalanced, it is missing a lot of material and has only limited scientific material in it. Wikipedia articles not supposed to be recruiting tools for either white racists or black supremacists. So lets try not to push for either extreme so hard.-- Filll 04:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
It is in no way my intention to offend any of the people who have so far contributed to this article, but I am going to be honest and direct, as it stands the piece is a joke and a foul cross between a pc banner and an amateurish and outmoded collection of subpar "race" articles that have been circulating freely through the internet for years. Also, I second Lukas19 in protesting the grotesque demonizing and nazi-izing of certain editors by other editors, this is simply intolerable by any standards. As to the topic in question: I think the obvious course to take—in dealing with a subject of such controversy—is a conservative one that remains centered around a core definition of blackness or negressence as an essentially sub-Saharan African designation or classification; one that to be sure is shared by the greater (sub-Saharan) diaspora principally located in the Americas and Europe. The gallery as it stands is, to put it bluntly, a gallery of freaks (in the Baroque sense of excentric examples) and in no way an accurate representation of the majority of blacks (an extremely varied group to be sure), and yet I think it could be saved if we were to "populate it" with representative "faces" of some of the more important African ethnic groups, this would I think prove extremely enlightening to a great number of people who upon hearing the word black picture some "notorious" African-American rapper, athlete, or, yes, murderer. My general impression is that reason and logic long ago fell by the wayside during what has become an increasingly tortuous definitional odyssey. (For those who are wondering: yes I do belong to the dreaded "Falangists" and this is an assumed name I will be changing periodically as a precaution against those who futilely think they can block and ban the truth). Cheers, note I have tried to communicate this in the most neutral tone possible.-- SanIsidro 07:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I took a look at the "Black supremacy" article mentioned above. It looks good to me.
I also looked for an article on "African people" but what I found forwarded to Africa. Somewhat surprisingly, the discussion there has little to do with genetics and much to do with ethnicity, languages, political divisions, etc.
There seems at this time to be little information regarding the interconnections among the various population groups in Africa depicted in the charts already on this page. Wells thinks that the San and related languages are possibly the most archaic of any on earth since no other languages (except one or two in Africa that may have imported some vocabulary items) use the so-called "click" sounds.
The original "starburst" appears to occur in Africa, with some components heading toward the interior of Africa and some heading out of Africa through the Mid-East. One way to divide an article would be to follow each of these paths. P0M 17:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Filll 19:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't agree with you more, Jews and blacks do have a lot in common.-- SanIsidro 19:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Whatdoyou's recent edits to the intro of Black people beg the question of what "Black people" actually means by defining it to mean people of (biologically recent) African ancestry. A central point of the article is that there is no generally accepted consensus about what "Black people" means, and by defining it in the intro of the article, you either create a circular argument, or much of the article would have to be deleted, as the discussion of other concepts of Black people would necessarily be moot. -- The Anome 18:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
There's more than 1 definition of black people so the articles should be separated based on definition to avoid needless confusion and edit warring. This article can focus on Black as an ethnic term and I created a separate article to focus on black as a dark skin color identity__ Whatdoyou 18:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I don't understand what the problem is with dividing the article up into the 2 types of definitions. This article can focus on all the debates about how much African ancestry is required to be considered Black (the standards vary enormous from America to Brazil). The other article can focus on black as a term for a dark skin. We're talking about 2 totally different things, so why not have 2 totally different artticles? Cardriver 18:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
What if we had a template for black and african people articles that looked like [2]? For blacks, what articles would you include? I have some ideas off the top of my head but there are probably many others. I might suggest:
What do you think?-- Filll 20:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Fill. We should separate this article into 2 articles: Black people (those of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry) and dark skinned people (people who are dark in skin color regardless of whether they are from Africa or not) Gottoupload 23:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that this article ( Black as a skin color identity) was created for those who want to use the braoder definition of Black. But Black is most commonly used exclusively to describe those belonging to a group characterized by recent sub-Saharan ancestry. This is one of the world's biggest ethnic groups and one of the world's most vocal users of the term black. An entire article focused on black being used in that context makes sense. Gottoupload 00:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
According to this article, the names of ethnic groups should be capitalized[ [3]]. So here's a solution, how about 2 separate articles. One called Black people with a capital B, and the other called black people with a lower case B. So all the people who are interested in writing about the people of African descent who define the black ethnic group, can write the capiatl B Black people article, and all the people who are interested in writing about all dark skiined groups collectively can edit the lower case B black people article.
Because the 2 terms have very different meaning and were created for very different purposes. For example Australian aboriginals are black (with a small b) but they're not Black (with a big B) Michael Jackson is Black (with a big B) but since his skin has become lighter he's no longer black (with a small b). Now within the subject of Black people (with a big B) there are all kinds of controversies about who is black, so there are enough topics to argue over without giving us the added burder of mixing 2 completely different definitions of B/black into the same article Gottoupload 00:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm coming in late here, but I'm guessing this idea might fall foul of POV fork. Certainly the articles would have to be very carefully written and titled. I'd seriously consider trying to get wider community input here, an WP:RFC or similar. exolon 01:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
This page was duplicated/forked to Black people (ethnicity) today with the apparent intention to split the article into two separate topics. Please discuss whether this is necessary on that article's talk page. Thanks! -- Dachannien Talk Contrib 01:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a consensus for my capital B idea so just redirect the black ethnicty article to Black people (with a capital B) since they're about the same thing Gottoupload 01:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Using capitals is not a very clear method of distinguishing different articles. Changing the wording is simpler. Muntuwandi 01:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
black is not an ethnic group, it is a lay term for non-White people, there is no ethnic group called black anywhere in the world. Capital B makes sense because English Caps Names, Jew, Muslim, John, Peter, Sudan. black is a color, Black is the above.-- Halaqah 11:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Ethnicity simply means people who are from the same part of the world. Black (ethnicity) describes people of equatorial African origin (not West African only). Not sure why Alun wants to separate the black ethnic group in to many different ethnic groups. We don't see it that way.__ Whatdoyou 15:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
We now have 3 articles. This one, the 'capital b' one and the 'ethnicity' one. If this keeps up the admins are very likely to blow the forks out of the water and push everyone back into here to thrash it out on the talk page. If this keeps up we'll have a version of 'black people' for every editor/school of thought and thats a POV fork violation for sure. exolon 01:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll try to redirect the ethnicity one to the capital b article Gottoupload 01:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)