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Here's what Neil Risch, Alberto Piazza, and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza had to say about Arnaiz-Villena's pseudoscientific methodology, used both in your cited study by the latter, as well as his tract one "on the genetic relatedness of Jews and Palestinians". Keep in mind that "Human Immunology" magazine retracted publication of the latter study based exactly on its lack of scientific merit.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b.html
Sir:
Even though the controversial withdrawal of a paper on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews by the journal Human Immunology (see Nature 414, 382; 2001) is a minor episode compared with the tragedies caused by ethnic/religious conflicts over past decades, the issues involved are worth revisiting.
The stated purpose of the paper by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. was to "examine the genetic relationships between the Palestinians and their neighbours (particularly the Jews) in order to: (1) discover the Palestinian origins, and (2) explain the historic basis of the present ... conflict between Palestinians and other Muslim countries with Israelite Jews".
They conclude: "Jews and Palestinians share a very similar HLA genetic pool that supports a common ancient Canaanite origin. Therefore, the origin of the long-lasting Jewish−Palestinian hostility is the fight for land in ancient times."
It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.
Our primary concern, however, is that the authors might be perceived to have been discriminated against for political, as opposed to legitimate scientific, reasons.
Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.
The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.
We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.
This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary. |
This term defines a race of people, not just a skin color as discussed in the opening paragraph. Black people are not just dark-skinned. Blacks have many other genetic characteristics that define the race.-- Black Man 00:08, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Talk:Black (people)/Races of Egypt
This article needs to clean up some of its language, and specifically define the terms of its discussion. For example, exactly what are "black" or "European" characterisrics that are found among these groups, but not found in others? Also, what is "black blood?" This term has no scientific merit; there is no inherent difference in the blood of those who have varying degrees of any ancestry. [[musicus, 24 July 2005]
Nothing article, not even a stub, one ill-chosen link and a naive question. Ortolan88
Not any more, moved ill-placed section from black. Previous redirect was to African American, also not quite as accurate. Quill 22:53, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
---
This paragraph moved here from the article:
A claim that different "races" of people are better suited to different locales is pretty controversial, and might well deserve its own article. A few things are well accepted, such as having darker skin making one less susceptible to sunburn, but whether skin color correlates well with "thriving" in particular climates in general is another matter entirely. In these examples, many would argue that the demographics are due more to accidents of history than to people with more melatonin being partiuclarly well-suited to the Caribbean. -- Delirium 08:15, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
Would anyone oppose moving this article to Race in society or a similarly named article, where Whites could also be discussed? As it stands, this article is dangerously close to unencyclopedic by mere virtue of its name alone. Tomer TALK 05:55, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
Deeceevoice, of course all humanity originated in Africa. This is exactly why I don't think the article should imply that, say, Tamils are particularly more African than, say, Han Chinese.-- Pharos 20:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not arguing about the use of the term "Blacks", I'm saying the quote "more broadly to persons whose ancestors formed early migratory waves of humanity from Africa in prehistoric times to members of other dark-skinned groups" implies that dark-skinned peoples outside of Africa have a closer genealogical/genetic relationship to Africans than lighter-skinned peoples do, which I don't think is demonstrated.-- Pharos 21:05, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I still think the text, though literally true, is somewhat misleading and reinforces a common but false idea. Why is it particularly relevant that dark-skinned groups had "ancestors [who] formed early migratory waves of humanity from Africa in prehistoric times"? As you say, this is true of all humanity.-- Pharos 21:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing that up. Though the idea of "Negroid" has of course been incredibly abused, I think the link is relevant. Like many things on Wikipedia, this article puts a bit too much emphasis on language. There could be far more, for example on racism and the social meaning of "blackness".-- Pharos 22:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Particuarly w.r.t. use in the U.S.A., should 'black' be capitalized? I've seen it both ways in WP, and I'm curious if there's a good reason to pick one over the other. (I also suspect that there are subtle political issues involved in the use of capital letters in white/White and black/Black...) jdb ❋ ( talk) 10:24, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think the most common usage is as it has always been -- "black/s" and "white/s" are lower-cased. deeceevoice 15:43, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The issue isnt if we have seen or not seen it in capitals, the issue is all names in English use capitals and thus black lowercase grammatical refers to a color, African people are not the color "black" so what does the black mean? This is why many people say they are African-Caribbean and not "black" because black says very little about who you are or where you are from. " black man shot a lady" what does that mean? black is a very backward way to refer to someone, it doesnt speak to culture, language or ethnic homeland. Black as a political term to group non-White people should only be used in that sense and not as a racial label. The arrogance of some is to assume they know what is best for African people and they with their european selves go and unilaterially carry out the below action, irrespective of offense and regardless of their knowledge level on the subject. If you dont know leave it alone. It is well know that black lowercase if black is to be used causes offense. If Europeans want to be labeled "white" that is another matter (they rule the world and is their business). But we dont live in a fix world and as Negro is has faded "black" (esp lowercase is fading). It is not for regressive thinkers to stand in the way of change, we base change and progress on evidence and argument, not what we are familar with or like to see. Names in ENglish are capitalized.
Lowercase "black" is by far the most common usage in the US, but capitalized B "Black" is not uncommon in ultra-politically correct writing and in Afrocentrist literature. Capital W "White", by contrast, is used almost exclusively in white supremacist literature. Kwertii 00:19, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
What does it mean if somebody capitalizes both then? -- 24.63.36.180 10:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that capitalization of the words "black" and "white" in this context is a matter of preference, and I have no problem following any reasonable standard. The vital issue in my mind is how best to communicate to the reader. Readers of this topic, especially Americans, habitually confuse four different concepts of "black" and "white".
Intelligent discourse and pedagogy are both impossible when participants unconsciously and indiscriminately switch among those four concepts. Each concept applies differently to different individuals, each arose in a different place and time historically, and each is seen differently by different people around the world. Any serious discussion of racialism must clearly distinguish among those four concepts in every single sentence.
For what it is worth, in my own writing, I use "African American" as noun and "African-American" as modifier whenever I mean the first concept (note the initial caps). I use "African-looking" versus "European-looking" whenever I mean the second concept (again, note cap use). I use "U.S. Black endogamous group" or "U.S. White endogamous group" whenever I mean the third concept, although after the first few such usages I usually shorten this to "Black" and "White" (again, note caps). I use "African genetic admixture" or "European genetic admixture" whenever I mean the fourth concept, although after the first few usages I usually shorten this to "African DNA" and "European DNA". In my writing, I use lower-case "black" and "white" only when referring to colors.
Finally, as you can see above, I put the terms in quotation marks only when the referent is the word itself. Example-1 (without quotation marks): "Rosie Perez has noticeable African appearance but is of Hispanic, not African-American ethnicity, yet English-speaking Americans probably see her as a member of the U.S. Black endogamous group. She has not published her specific Afro-European DNA admixture." Example-2 (with quotation marks): John Doe says that the word "Black" applies to Mariah Carey but not to Rosie Perez.
Do not misunderstand. I am not suggesting that anyone adopt my standards, and I am willing to adopt whatever consensus standard arises. But I dig in my heels regarding the need to distinguish among those four concepts. -- Frank W Sweet 17:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
it must be kept in mind that in africa, there are thousands of ethnic groups. it seems logical to me that members of those african ethnic groups would have, in the past or present, interbred with members of other african ethnic groups. thus, logically, there would be black africans, who are, say for example, part swahili and part xhosa.
of course, many blacks in america don't consider themselves as members of the african ethnic groups, and simply think of themselves as "black". however, i know for fact that there are some blacks in america who still adhere to an ethnic group, and it's language, culture, religion, foods, architecture, clothing styles, etc. Gringo300 30 June 2005 02:16 (UTC)
I'm fed up with going through this with every single article treating black people on Wikipedia: the perverse need to insert an endless list of pejorative, insulting racial slurs associated with the group. No other ethnic or racial group on Wikipedia receives similar treatment in articles dealing with them. There may be a legitimate need to present such information on Wikipedia -- but it should be done in a separate article. The time for automatically associating backward, ignorant, disgusting terminology with a group -- as though it defines who and what its members are -- is long past. Time for this to end. deeceevoice 14:12, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
First, deleting the entire table goes a bit far. But I suppose that was meant to evoke a response. The problem is that people have always used derogatory names for other groups. It's just that blacks have suffered most from this. I'm afraid your suggestion that this is a thing of the past will never be true. Condescending attitudes towards other groups, and the namecalling that goes with it will always be a part of mankind (well, maybe in some distant future....). Now, I can understand it's irritating to be confronted with that all the time, but 1) it's a fact so it can't be ignored in an encyclopedia and 2) ignoring it would almost be something like saying the holocaust never happened. And we can't have that either. By the way, what's 'pretty' about the table? It's just an ordinary table. I suppose that's meant as an ironic derogatory term :) .
I'd say there isn't too much use of derogatory terms in the table. There is however some explanation of how the same term can sound differently in other languages, and that's useful. Though it is confusing that the article is about Blacks in the sense of 'sub-Saharan Africans' but that the table is partly about them, but also partly about the use of the term 'Black' for other groups. In that sense the table is out of place here, but I wouldn't know where else to put it. Oh, and I notice that under the US there is a mention of 'the N-word'. Now that's useful! This is something I really dislike about US lingo. Say it or don't, but don't be halfhearted about it. If you want to say 'nigger', then say it. If you don't, then don't.
As for a solution. You suggest a separate article. If you mean splitting this one up, I'd say that doesn't solve it and the two resulting articles would be rather short. Or do you mean putting derogatory terms for all 'races' in one place? That does make sense. How about the racism article? (By the way, how do you feel about the fact that two of the three illustrations are about blacks? Just another example, but justifiable by my previous reasoning.) Let's give it a go. Let's make a list of derogatory terms for different human 'races' (which don't taxonomically exist, but that's a different issue). I can't think of too many off the top of my head (and I'm just about ready for bed :) ). One problem is that there's namecalling for other groups like nationalities. Not sure if that should go in the same table. And then there are misnomers like Indian for Native Americans. And different languages, like in the table you removed. And certain names are used for different groups too (like 'darkie' can refer to any person with a dark skin). And the same word can be good or bad in different setiings, times or countries. Much work to do :) .
White: camarron (though really for tourists in Mexico only I believe), bleekscheet
Black: nigger, darkie, chombo, nikker, roetmop, kaffer
Asian: chink (though that's for Chinese I believe)
Native American: redskin
DirkvdM 20:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Wow, some list! If only people would use their creativity in a more constructive way. Strange, though, that the racism article doesn't link to it. But about the 'pretty table', what do you have in mind then? Remove the derogatory terms (which, like I said, aren't all that many) and put it back? But then there's the 2 problems I mentioned. You suggested a separate article, but I don't see how that solves it. Another idea would be to make a list like the one I started, with just the most common terms in various languages, and put that in the racism article, with a link to the List of Ethnic Slurs, because that is rather extremely long. And the slimmed down 'pretty table' couild go back then, with a link to the racism table, so people don't get just the 'black slurs'. DirkvdM 08:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, at first you suggested a separate article, but never mind that. Now you come with a different reason, namely that this is the English language Wikipedia, which seems to be the definitive word on this (wish you would have come up with that in the first place; would have saved me some work :) ). There's still some information in the table that makes sense in the article, though. I'll give it a go. DirkvdM 20:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Just a bit of trivia here: in Brazil, the term "negro" is the politically correct, whereas "black" is deemed pejorative. I cannot vouch for other portuguese speaking countries, but this is how these words are viewed in brazilian portuguese.
^^^ someone wrote above (not me) and didn't sign their name DyslexicEditor 14:11, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Racial slurs do not belong in this article. I'm sick of readig "nigger" every time I come to an article on Wikipedia about black people. Enough! deeceevoice 15:57, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Is Wikipedia sinking to the lowest common denominator, as detractors feared when it first emerged? Unless one is an EXTREME populist, after all, one acknowledges that the majority of any population is ignorant about most things. (Specialists, by definition, specialize.) Yet if all voices are treated equally, and if increasingly they dominate postings on Wikipedia due to their sheer numbers, then the result will be an ignorant Wiki. There must be many discussions about this elsewhere, but this page (and the non-mirror image page at whites illustrates the problem as well as any other.
The intent of the Wiki founders and directors is good and clear. E.g., the Wiki guidelines state: "If possible, terms used to describe people should be given in such a way that they qualify other nouns. Thus, black people, not blacks; gay people, not gays; and so forth." Yet this page here [1] is named blacks, and that usage is prevalent throughout.
I, through my inexperience, could not isolate a particular edit, so i figured that the moderators were unilaterally editing the article.
Apologies to the wiki-moderators.
Well, the first sentence of the paragraph is false. Who would the author credit for creating the "hip-hop" style, the Italians? The article is about Black People, not when the hip-hop style of rap music began, or where. It is most certainly not a podium for extremist propaganda.
The comments surrounding this paragraph are just as bad. It equates Black culture with "the ghetto", assumes that all Blacks inherit this "ghetto life", and presumes to make the spread of this musical style as important an event in the education of anyone about Black People as the inventions we have created, our philosophical positions and the lives of Blacks who have never been touched by slavery. Music is a distracting asset in the discussion of a culture, and there are many other, more important aspects of Black Society that would edify a Wiki reader more thoroughly.
If we're taking a vote on it's inclusion, I vote no. Juan 11:53, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
I pulled this from the article and put it here, someone wanted the matter to be resolved, but didn't want to discuss it first.
What is the difference between this position, and the position you say is not true? A medium to re-express the hardship of blackness, especially Black ghetto life is the same thing as to express their heritage openly and their social concerns.
If I recall, in Jamaica, and parts of France and West Africa they were into rap in the late 80s and early 90s. Especially in West Africa, Hip Hop remained a social expression against oppression. For example Nas gives clues all over his music, the Pharaonic cover of one of his Albums "I AM" seems to relate to the French group "I AM" who also use the motif of Egyptian Pharaohs for their names. In his music, "One Mic", he references to "one God" in French. There is a deeper social and moral aspect of Hip-hop that has been present long before and still despite white meddling into it. And since in America, the social climate isn't receptive to direct social commentary in rap like it was in the 80s, subtlety is the name of the game on this side of the Atlantic. SO I would say that you added some insight but you also missed some, but the original paragraph is true, not withstanding "HOW" the phenomonon spread. Why didn't you put this on the discussion area instead of right into the article? Delving into how Hip-hop spread does nothing to deny that Black people throughout the world do benefit from the expression.
______________________________________________________________________________
I notice you mention Hip Hop in this article, but there is no mention of jazz, blues,rock music, gospel or even old slave hymns that were important to black people and has had such an effect on American culture/black American culture.
One could argue that some of these musical forms have had a greater impact on society then hip-hop simply based on how they've withstood the test of time and broken down cultural boundaries. I would say that blues, rock, and slavery era songs had/have their own social commentary; and if you must include hip-hop and the media driven 'hip-hop' culture in this article then it's only fair that you include the other musical forms that blacks have innovated and the culture that surrounds them.
I actually dislike hip-hop even being included in this article as there is a thought in society among blacks and whites that listening to hip-hop and embracing that as your life style has something to do with being black. So those blacks who don't listen to hip-hop and don't subscribe to it's associated culture are some how running away from their blackness, when it's nothing more then a matter of an individuals taste. There is a mass thought out there that in order to be black you have to listen to hip-hop and when you do not, you are some kind of aberration that shouldn't exist. This is not just a thought in America, but in many cultures. So, I ask that you please either remove the reference to hip-hop music in this article, or also include other important musical styles that were started by black people. Thank you.
What the heck does Black Anarchism have to do with Black People? Do we see the KKK links on the White People article? No. It's gone!
This section:
is ridiculously POV. Firstly, it quite plainly connects non-black scholars in particular with a wish to 'marginalize the significance of Black people in history'. What does their being non-black have to do with it? Are they racists? Are scholars 'often' guilty of misrepresenting black people? Another problem I have is with 'attempts to base Blackness on a biological or genetic foundation are objectively flawed' - surely they are only objectively flawed according to someone's POV! Massively POV, and this is just the opening few paragraphs... the whole article needs to be checked, and points of view mitigated with contrary voices, so I'm tagging it. -- 81.154.236.221 16:28, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
It is a little overbroad, but you cannot dispute the truth of the first sentence. I'd refine it to focus it on works during slavery, Jim Crow and such recent screeds as "The Bell Curve", but if their intent is/was different, show me how. The conclusion of the paragraph, that you cannot define Blackness genetically, can not be disputed, and is certainly unbiased. If you think otherwise, by all means, enlighten me! I am not the original author of the paragraph, but I defend it's conclusion with my own life experiences. I further intend to provide references in the near future.
Juan 12:42, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
Yup, the opening two paragraphs of the article are ludicrously POV. Actually it's a shame that this article is currently linked to from the main page, as it's a poor advertisement for Wikipedia, IMHO. Ben Finn 11:06, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I've decided to 'be bold', and have cut the most obviously POV text from the first two paragraphs, viz.:
But a quick look through the rest of the article suggests to me that this isn't the only POV text in there. Ben Finn 11:15, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
So, what gives you the right to be so bold? Isn't there a method for resolving disputes that precludes such unilateralism? Why didn't you REWORD what you felt was biased, instead of destroying it? Do you have a patent on the presentation of facts that we must license in order to use them in our presentations?
I strongly suggest that you reinsert the text while it is being discussed. Your censorship is not appreciated in the least.
Are you trying to mask the fact that Europeans and Eurasians oppressed Africans? Maybe you are of the school of thought that believes and propounds the theory that describes race as an identifier of species? If so, and even if not, who made you the arbiter of NPOV?
Once again, I strongly suggest that you reinsert the text, and allow it to be reworked by consensus. Juan 12:42, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
Consensus. I had also noted in the Eurocentricism article, that Eurocentricists take a unilateral approach in resolving issues of dispute, rather than coming to a consensus. I believe here we have an example of that. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:03, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
What is NPOV to one person can be very biased to another. You have not explained what you feel is a neutral position, but instead, you complain about what you do not like and unilateraly try to change it. Shall I change (being a Black person) the parts of the White People article I do not like in the same unilateral fashion? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:03, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't have time to revise this myself or get heavily into the debate, but for the record, I agree that this article is ridiculously POV and needs major revisions to become NPOV. Kwertii 00:24, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Juan, I see you've removed the POV and source warnings on the article. I think this is unwarranted. This extremely long article contains no sources that I can see from a quick look-through. It therefore gives the appearance of a series of original research (and somewhat POV) essays.
While your reinstatement of the text I deleted is certainly better than it was, it is still POV (and not the only POV stuff in the article):
What is the objective evidence of this sinister motivation? (None is cited.) This sentence is clearly from the POV of someone who disagrees with these unnamed non-black researchers and wants to present the alternative view as objective fact. And also, while they're it it, wants to impugn their motives. A sentence like this would not appear in any reputable print encyclopedia. Anyway, I don't have much interest in editing this article further as I have no expertise in the subject matter. But I still think it falls short of Wikipedia's standards. I hope someone will improve it. Ben Finn 11:37, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Juan 23:34, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
I see the complaints being made by some regarding the POV in the article. What I presented was a widespread point of view by BLACK people on what they consider THEMSELVES to be. Not what someone who is not part of that experiences believes. IN addition, much of the content is from a Black point of view. What is so hypocritical of those complaining about the POV in the article is that, before when the article was so crappy with a lot of anti-Black pov, and empathsis on what the word "nigger" and "negro" means (which has little relevance to Black people), very few people complained except those who were Black. Now here we are, and once again a Black perspective, which is complex, and difficult to grasp is being attacked for the parts that are critical of the white aspects. That's too bad, because White people need to get it that they are not above reproachment. I am not here to villify White people, but I am here to accurately describe what and who considers themselves Black and how that inclusionary grouping has come to be, changed, and currently is changing. PART OF THAT is the impositions by white government officials, white judges, white scholars... throughout the past three centuries. Those imposition define and redefine it for their (white people) own convenience, whether economic (slavery), social(Jim Crow/Apartheid/NAZI), or cultural (bell-curve, concerns about diffusionism and Afrocentricism).
The complaints that come and go in some of the racial articles in Wikipedia follow this format, that is, when they are distortions of Black people, no white person cares. When the distortions are removed, and in the process white people are noted for their participation in the accurate portrayals or distortions, white people cares and wants to dump the whole article. No the article won't be dumped. It doesn't matter how much you dislike my point of view, we will find a equitable (and I empathize that word) way to a consensus. We will not allow unilateral Eurocentric exasperations to dominate the future of this article. Yes, it's sad, someone said, about the article. Go back in time before I touched the article, with it's stupid chart of "negro" and "nigger" and tell me how sad that was to you? Did you find that crap enlightening or did you not read the article at that time?
yes I am very critical when the quality of insight into an issue is determined by how much a white critic is exasperated. Enough! -- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:18, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles should not represent black POV any more than they should represent white POV. They should represent NPOV. (Though that may of course include objective statements of what white and black views/beliefs are, to the extent that that's relevant.) As to the issue of whether criticisms against the article are being leveled by whites or blacks, it's of course irrelevant. The validity of a criticism depends solely on whether it is true or not, not the race of the critic. (As for my criticisms, you don't know what race I am; nor is it relevant.) Ben Finn 10:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Well here is a newsflash, Wikipedia seems to present a white POV all too often. Except for the Nazi articles, I find an annoying habit of the articles being softened up when White people are being criticized. I do not see this softening up of other groups. I also see an unnecessary need to "prove" things with racial issues, for example, in the Curse of cain article, the writer tries to somehow soften up the significance of associating Black people with Cain because a slave had made the connection in her writing in the 19th century (you know, the old idea, if one black persoon did it ignorantly, then it must be ok to flaunt it as fact). One article on Mormonism, the writer tried to make it look like a Black Mormon had somehow been the catalyst of all of the anti-Black policies in the Mormon church. In another, the Caucasoid article, someone kept trying to include Ethiopians as Caucasoids, based on craniometry, and Coon's analyses, despite the fact that Coon himself had indicated that the Ethiopians had Negroid tendecies in their skulls. It's hard to do checks and balances on POV about race when the owners of the media, the arbitrators of the service, and those of an opposing view are all overwhelming of the same background. Again, where were you when the silly "negro" chart was on this article?-- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
WHy is any reference to East India taken out of the article? I agree that we need to cite the sources, a process that I am horribly unfamiliar with doing. But I do believe that Black people are abundant in India, about 20-30 percent of the population, depending on who is counting. I am aware of the Dalit movmements that AFFIRM the blackness of the Dalit people in India (about 100 million of them), as well as the Siddi people and many Dravidians consider themselves Black. However, I am aware of many East Indians who hate Black people so much that the mere mention of there being a Black presence in that country scares them to death. I will place the East Indian references BAAAACK into the article. Unilateral removals of course is underhanded, and I would like some insight BEFORE it's done.-- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I would appreciate some assistance in resource citing and what not. i am not able to go through 500 books and a thousand articles to cite to prove what I have put into the article. I do know that we all in here can collaborate and find the references. Since web-based material is not considered on par with written material (and I can respect that), I would hope someone in here can provide. Runoko Rashidi, for example did a very well in depth insight into this topic.-- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi, everyone. I just stumbled on this page for the first time today and it's causing me to lose faith in wikipedia as a concept. The language and organization is so bad, most of the sections overlap and repeat information, and there are so many confusing, slanted, and false statements that I can't even begin to address them one by one. I think we could do a lot better if we started from scratch, but before we do that, we should have a discussion about what the goals of this article are, and what the layout should be. In my opinion, race is a social construct, not a genetic one, so to me the article should focus on the sociological use of the term "black". The various anthropological 'research' over the years that has attempted to define who is black should be presented as just that: attempts to define who is black. We would also do well to define ahead of time what sections to have and what info these sections will cover. What does everyone think? ThePedanticPrick 21:50, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
These (and much of the rest of the article) are blatantly POV assertions. If we can find references to specific published works that advocate these POVs, I'm all for including these POVs, but we mustn't just assert them as though they are generally accepted fact. They need to be referenced, and the article needs to make it clear that they are controversial. On the capitalization of "Black" throughout the article: as a racial identifier, the word "black" is written with lowercase-b "black", not uppercase-B "Black". Writing "Black" with an uppercase-B is as pretentious and racist as writing uppercase-W "White" is (which is almost never done outside the context of white supremacist literature), especially as almost all instances of "white" as a racial construct are written with lowercase-w. That is indisputably lopsided, racist, and belies the editorial slant that informs much of this article. And, allow me to say preemptively: no, this is not merely some knee-jerk reaction of a scared Eurocentric white afraid of the very concept of Blackness encroaching on my snowy-white Nazi worldview; as another poster said, nobody here has any idea what my race is, nor does it matter. This article needs major refactoring and referencing to become NPOV. Kwertii 01:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I have read enough complaints about the quality standards. I am firstly, convinced that yes, the article needs a lot of citations, of course. I am also convinced that the biased attitude of some of the critics here is obvious, as the white people article lacks the same standards as this article. Two references. One reference to a criticism of the term (which is irrelevant since the term itself lacks references) and one governmental refernce to the U.S. census, which I also have in this article. In addition, there is ONE link to an outside source, no books, and no professors so and so, no nothing. Shall we start rewriting the white people article? It miserably fails to meet the standards of quality that critics here earnestly point out. I think the critics need to find a reasonable attitude and to set their racial fears and egos aside and deal with the uncomfortable issue rationally. Right now I see an immature eurocentric attitude and yes a knee-jerk response. I see critics anticipating how I may respond to their next comments, but no real interest in truthseeking other than to defend the "honor" of the white race (or social construct or whatever). The "white people" article sucks, it's lame, it's retarded. I don't care, because I am interested in this article. If you want to be constructive, be constructive. Do not try to come in here with a notion of fairness and think I am too dumb to notice obvious things. Where is the neutrality and lack of citation tag on the white people article???-- 68.60.55.162 05:47, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me empathize how bad the White people article is, (and thus explain why the critical complaints about quality in this article are so offensive). The only outside link about white people in the article goes to a website www.white-people.com which among all things has this:
Chapter 9. Alpha and Omega - The Rise and Fall of Civilizations - The rise and fall of civilizations explained in terms of their racial homogeneity; with the Near East civilizations as examples;
This garbage racist link is THE link in the white people article? Grow up. It is no doubt in my mind that whoever is writing and editing the white people article is engaging in some kind of ulterior motive. Well beyond the POV concerns you have here. Firstly Egypt was a mixed-black civilization, owing its dynastic origins to the South. Secondly, the damn link equates "Caucasoid MIXTURE with pure-whiteness" which is a bad habit that white people have of doing. But you know what, leave that racist link in the white people article, it demonstrates the biased prejudiced nature of white group mentality, -- 68.60.55.162 05:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me also remind the readers how unreliable Thepedantricprick is as he points out problems in this article, but ignores those same problems in the white people article. He not only fails to mention the same problems, but he does not acknowledge the same problem when mentioned by others. So no, I am not taking your concerns to much merit now. Apart from that, the critical comments about this article is a load of semiliterate horseshit. Carry on.
Unacceptable. You do not unilaterally apply standards in one area of wikipedia under ultimatium to delete the article, while ignoring the same lack of standards pointed out. I do not care what your race is, what I care about is the overall big picture of Wikipedia showing a biased POV slant in favor of white people at the expence of black people. Go read the whtie people article. They just made some changes thanks to your comments. I saw a lack of change beforehand even though some of the same concerns were raised. Only now, is some action being taken. The black people article is not bad, it is firstly unfinished, and open for honest adjustment. Trying to dump it is unacceptable. -- 68.60.55.162 06:02, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
There is an area in India inhabited by Black jews. This area is known as Cochins, and is documented currently and in antiquity. Cochin_Jews and Herodotus mentioned the Colchins (in modern Georgia) as Black:
"it is undoubtedly a fact that the Colchians are of Egyptian descent. I noticed this myself before I heard anyone else mention it ... My own idea on the subject was based first on the fact that they have black skins and woolly hair... and secondly, and more especially, on the fact that the Colchians, the Egyptians and the Ethiopians are the only races which from ancient times have practiced circumcision." - Although this story is heresay, it is not an account to be dismissed as a fabrication. This is not "vandalism" or "nonsense". -- 208.254.174.148 20:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Why is there no mentions about blacks having a smaller IQ than the rest of the population? Ashkenazi-article has a mention about their high IQs, so I think we should also note which races have a low IQ. Lapinmies 12:37, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Most of what people consider to be race is really about regional characteristics that are inherited and have little to nothing to do with the underlying genetic variances that have any sort of medical relevance. I suggest you do some actual research before spewing disinformation about certain ethnic groups being genetically superior to others. The scientific community cannot agree on the exact definition of race or what intelligence actually is and any way to accurately measure it. So please explain to me how there is supposed be some sort of scientific correlation drawn between two concepts that are not properly defined. This is the reason why the “facts are suppressed” because they are neither factual by any definition nor have a purpose other than to propagate flawed data emanated from flawed research. Next time make sure you actually know what you’re talking about. Especially before making a suggestion to edit a source where others come to educate themselves, something you obviously have no interest in doing.- Concerned Non-Wikipedia Member
I really don't see why IQ is at all relevant to the page. IQ is IQ, intelligence is not IQ. It's like claiming to be able to measure different levels of 'average' beauty between races, based on a Miss America beauty pagent with a panal of elderly white judges doing the judging. Hmm, I wonder who will win when the choice is between a black woman, an asian woman, an arab woman and a blond haired blue eyed white girl? And how exactly do you define intelligence? If you could show me some proper evidence that there are differences in intelligence levels between races then sure, I would have to agree it should probably be on the page. But IQ tests only measure the ability of an individual to answer an IQ test, nothing more. Therefore why should anyone want any mention of IQ tests on a page about a certain race, when IQ tests have such a long history of being used by racists to promote illogical and irrational prejudices? Unless of course you are interested in proving that black people are somehow stupider than other races. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.67.76.89 ( talk • contribs) 02:36, 8 October 2005 (UTC).
Well Lapinmies I appreciate you removing the lyric. I certainly don't like curtailing freedom of speech for senseless PC reasons, and I appreciate that you are not racist. However, I just really don't think any credence should be given to racial IQ claims. This is not PC gone mad, this is simple logic. Intelligence cannot be measured any more than it can be defined as a single entity able to be compared across individuals, who are likely to differ far more in IQ than races. And what about social conditions? Again and again it must be pointed out that it's no wonder that the poorest people also often tend to have the highest crime rates and the lowest IQ rates: they don't go to good schools and they crime is often highly profitable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.67.76.89 ( talk • contribs) 17:25, 12 October 2005.
When an editor points out something is missing the correct response is not to explain away the need for the section -- in all but the most trollish cases, that he has asked is proof enough that the article is lacking. IQ should be mentioned, if anyone has the initiative to do it. It comes up often in discussion; no psychology or sociology class would be complete without a debunking of IQ tests and why certain races do better or worse. A short paragraph and a link to Race and Intelligence would be good. Any breif debunking can be included. The phrasing should stick to the facts; IQ scores differ (steer clear of "intelligence") - 71.112.11.220 16:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
IQ discussion is in no way relevant to Black people. The mention of IQ tests, which are disputed of objectivity, do nothing more than reinforce a conceived notion that Black people are in some way "less" than whites and northern asians. This isn't the place for your insistence of reinforcing deep-seeded prejudices. One day, when IQ tests are not used to prove intellect, then sure we can put them here. IQ tests are useful for individual purposes, not racial discourse. NO one is ever going to suggest that low scoring IQ whites should be treated any differently (in any less way) than higher scoring IQ blacks. So no, keep the IQ BS out of this article. And why don't you get over your obsession of trying to comfortably compartmentalize blacks beneath whites. - Zaph.
I think we need a new template reading "This article is intensely retarded."
And of course you didn't put your name, or give any reasons. Typical "I dont want Black people to think for themselves, I want them to think the way I feel is best, cuz I'm white and I don't like black unity. " reaction - Zaph
Yes, before you type it in, I know... you aren't white. You should be able to disagree without being white. yes yes. - Zaph.
No discussion. No more "sub" words to describe Black people. Use "Equatorial" to describe Black Africans. - Zaph.
Well, Sub-Saharan as a relationship to the Sahara is far less accurate to describe people outside of Africa, as you indicate. You yourself indicate that black people are indigenous to many areas that are quite far from the equator. You can choose to call them "non-Equatorial Black people" and we can debate that. But that is not related to the people who DO live IN Africa. the issue is the appropriateness of "Sub-saharan" vs "Equatorial". Equatorial describes a human type. "Tropical" would be another better choice. I use Equatorial, because black people who are indigenous to many areas outside of the equator certainly relate closely to those Equatorial people(and again we can debate that). All "sub-saharan" does is put the entire Black population of Africa in the context of a desert. That's silly. No one ever thought to call Europe "Peninsular Asia". No, that section of "eurasia" gets their own continent, even breaking the rule of what a continent is. Wikipedia is partly a resource to clarify, and I am clarifying. Black Africans are not "Sub-saharan" they are Equatorial. there are Black people way out of Africa that you can say "are not equatorial" but they are certainly not "sub-saharan" either. - Zaph
I think the other issue is that you and I disagree on the value of using language to change thinking processes. I believe that "Sub" is a prefix that reinforces a inferiority in the minds of black children and in the minds of white people. Do you find it coiencidence that the label goes in line with a people that are considered to be "sub"-intelligent based on "IQ" tests? or a people who are considered to be "sub"-human in their ability to grow and function socially based on the past 500 years of interaction with Europeans? Or a people who are expected to be sub-ordinate to the authority and policy making of White and European leadership? Or a people who are taught to be sub-missive to the social priorities of White people, especially in economic, educational, and cultural things? So when I see "sub" to describe Black people, a "NPOV" flag comes up in my mind. Lets do away with "sub" saharan. - Zaph
As a clarification. Ever listen to the word "Suburban"? The psychological impact of that is not there, even though the word is "sub-urban". Why? Because in the states, the 'Burbs are where affluent white people live and the now 'technically' proper use of the syllables 'sub' - 'urb' - 'an' has shifted to 'su' - 'burb' - 'an' in order to de-empathize the negative or unappealing context of being "beneath" the city. Remember, originally the Suburbs were the crappy rural areas of European and early American cities. - Zaph.
Pedantricprick - you are way out of line removing the large sections of the talk page. The discussions between the rest of us was relevant, and there is no reason to remove them. You do not remove something you disagree with and call it superfluous. I am sorry that discourse about race and black people is so touchy with you, that the mere debate about it causes you to over react. Perhaps with discourse about Kashmir, Israel, Russia, and other "non-black related debate" you feel less inclined to take the nuclear options you take here, but I am here to make sure that won't happen. This discussion is tense, it's touchy, it's hard. But it is no less worthy or relevant to the respect of any other controversal subject. I am so sick of the attitude of putting black-related-discourse under a paternalistic overcompensating form of censorship. I have seen flagarent ignorance left on talk pages. I see you left the discussion about IQ tests (which is far less relevant than whether or not Egypt and India have sizeable Black populaionts) in here. I am not going to tolerate your fake-ness. Aren't you the same person that obsessed about using the capital "B" in Black in this article, while also ignoring the fact that "W" was used in the White people article? Yes, you (or whomever) did change the W, but only after I pointed out the obvious contradiction. Someone had mentioned it earlier that month, and her comment was ignored. So no, I restore the content you deleted. And I reported you. - Zaph
Hey you got me, I had scanned some of the sections above, and hocus-pocus they weren't there. Now they are. Why don't you just leave the talk page alone. That's what it's here for. Free-form discussion. I am trigger happy about our freedom of speech. Don't tread on me :) - Zaph.
Since there are multiple allegations of NPOV on the talk page, I'm putting a notice on the article. Small black sun 05:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
So quick to cry POV, so slow to address it... 5 days to go - Zaph
Ok I will make a deal with you. If I respond to your concern, you gotta actually acknowledge and respond to my response. For example. Mysekurity has replied a few times AFTER I responded regarding my unwillingness to sign my name on the talk posts. Mysekurity, you should actually acknowledge what I had already stated (I believe also on YOUR talk page). When you fail to do that, that also causes the lack of trust in handling the article. If you ask me to sign my name, and then I respond and tell you that Wikipedia gives errors when I try... you should then respond to that instead of repeating your request that I sign my name. When you fail to respond, you make me think that 1. you are not reading my replies, and just pretending to act professional. 2. You read my responses, but are intentionally ignoring them, and repeating yourself, to try to make me look bad. So for the third time. When I try to sign into Wikipedia, 90% of the time, Wikipedia has a server related problem. - Zaph.
The cause and effect of IQ testing is disputed, Although all of these tests have been denounced for their lack of objectivity, or have disproven the myths they were tested for, many people still accept some of these myths as self-fufilling facts. In the IQ testing area, the characteristic lack of objectivity in regards to race and intelligence, is revealed in the fact that the testing methods do not use a control or any further detailed study to investigate the relationship between the racial categories and the IQ tests. (ex. test variations within each race do not investigate the amount of interracial mixture within the individuals, or the subgroups of the races, and where those are done, there is no correlation to their genetic makeup as sub-groups and their IQ.
Perfect example. Those children without fathers in their lives experience a far greater disparity in educational achievement. Well, Black children are substantially more likely to not have their fathers in their lives in this day and age. I think that example should give more perspective to the value of IQ tests and their relationship with intelligence. - Zaph
I do however have to agree with you there "zaph" race has NOTHING to do with intelligence and thats some bullshit it got me pissed when I read it.
For god's sake, do you guys come in here dreaming and sleeping about the big bad black intellectual? Israel, Jewry, Arab, and those other racial and ethnic groups where there is currently war, destruction, racism abound, and all sorts of ignorance, they do not have this much "controversy". What do you guys think is going to happen? This article is going to be respected and then Black people are going to take over the world and enslave you all? Shit! If you want to contribute positively to the article then DO so, but stop putting up complaints, then folding your arms with a smile, and expecting any black person who reads your complaint to do a dance and step to conform to your concern! Enough with this "Oh no no no, negro, we must put a stop to your assertive point of view, let me put a "flag" on your articles!" How many more stupid flags can you put in here to distort the reader from reading the article objectively? - Zaph
Well since no one actually has tried to work together, but instead merely pointed out controversies, I believe that you Pedantric and Mysekurity are talking the talk, but not walking the walk. - Zaph.
I am not accusing you of being a racist. I am annoyed that people voice complaints about the article, but offer little positive suggestions, or alternatives, NOR investigate the matters in question. It's a very counterproductive way of handling the issue, despite the fact that it's done civily. I find myself less trusting of a civil person who withholds positive suggestions of substance, than I would of a person who is less civil but more active in actual results. - Zaph
Whenever I try to add something to a wikipedia page, worried whites usually delete it. All I'm Saying is that the horrible anti-black racism you claim is in Egypt and other Arab countries simply isn't there. In the Arab world an Arab is one whose family language is Arabic, not a color. Populations in the Middle East are so mixed that harldy anyone thinks about brown or black. America is where the real racism is. Whether its wiggers subtly thinking they can do black culture better than blacks or traditional Mississippi hick lynch mobs, nowhere in the world hates Black fols as much as the USA. Many American dark skinned people feel let out of a racial prison when they travel abroad to the Middle East.
I don't have to explain nothing to you, but I will say that the situation in Sudan is ridiculous, because they are all black! I tell you it all started with Europeans taking over Egypt. Then they hired only Yugoslavian and Bosnian actors to play in films to brainwash the population. The last king in the 50's was Albanian! This was all part of a grand design to disunify the region. So now you have brown Arabs that wish they were white so bad that they call themselves that, even though real white laugh at them. Its like mullatoes in the days of slavery trying to brag about being "white" to all the other full-black slaves when the white master considered them all "niggers". We sure have to overcome racism in the middle east, and so does everyone else.
What is the word in the Middle East for "Black person"? It's "Abd" (slave). As in "Hey Slave come here, where are your papers?" or "I don't like my daughter marrying that Slave, she should marry a good (white) Arab instead."
Oh and just so you know, it's not worried whites that delete it. It's me, Zaph, the Black person who took the most effort in rewriting this article, I am the one that deletes it. I think you are the same person that kept deleting all the references to Egypt and the Middle East having Black heritage? Are you "Mr. Egyptian", the person I discussed earlier? I will give Pedantric some credit for pointing out this above. But in addition to that, Referring to Black "Arabs". I posted an article on Basra-Iraq where Black Iraqis are going through the same BS there that you mention about in America. - Zaph
No I'm not "Mr. Egyptian". And man are you a know-it-all. You talk about all these places like you actually have been there. You say black ""Arabs"" so sarcastically. it really offends you doesn't it. Ok so some idiots in the middle east may say abed. What's the America word for black people "nigger"? Whats the black vernacular for whites "cracker"? Whats the black AND white army word for arabs "desert niggers"? Everybody has derogatory terms for everybody, fool. I don't defend Arab racists, black racists, white racists, hispanic racists or anyone else. But not all middle easterners are racist believe me, unlike your strange, judgemental, prejudiced self, I have been to Jordan and Palestine, two Middle Eastern Arab nations.
That is totally outside of what i am saying though. I never implied that arabs are predominantly racist. What I am saying is that Arabization (the cultural imposition of Arab identity on non Arab people) is a real issue in North East Africa. You think that because I bring that up, I'm being racist on Arabs? Thats rediculous. And by the way, does it strike you odd that the racist slur for Arabs is "desert nigger?", I always found that to be weird. When you get to Sudan and Egypt, get back to me - Zaph
Zaph, we don't need you to keep explaining what you think "arabization" is. I have been to Egypt, actually. I went there with my cousins. For a little background information, my cousins have an arabic dad , and a white american mom. They look, however like white americans. When we entered a run down section of town(in Cairo), some little (brown arab)boys trew pebbles at them and called them americans. This only happened because they looked white. Truth is, people are just scared of people that look different from them. Are you saying you were one of those soldiers in Iraq, shooting Arabs and calling them "desert niggers"? And you did imply that all Arabs are racist. "what's the middle east word for black people" That is a word used by ignorant idiots and is in no way representative of the entire middle east. You have proven yourself far too predjudiced to edit this page, but that's just my humble opinion. -Niz
I have changed the {{
Controversial}} template at the top of the page to {{
Controversial3}} to better reflect the concerns stated on this talk page. It appears we might have an edit war brewing, as noted by the discussion above. Please
sign your comments on talk pages, even if just with an IP address (which is already visible by viewing the history, and will eliminate comments like "are you 'Mr. Egyptian'?" because you will be able to see who it really is). Thanks and happy editing, [[
User:Mys
e
kurity|
Mysekurity]] [[
additions |
e-mail]]
19:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Well I am an Egyptian and Consider myself non white even though I have many times been been mistaken for hispanic or latin or greek in origin.
We (the Arabs) view ourselves and the Berbers and to a lesser extent the Taureg, as the People of North Africa, a Black Arab, is no less an arab as say one of those often spoke about but seldom seen White lebanese or Syrian. Only a handfull of American Arabs view themselves as white, Quadaffi in his green book (kittab al akhdar) even refers to Whites and the Arab as meaning arabs are non white.
To be arab is to have come from peoples whos origin is in Yemen, all the talk about semitism is something European Jews and Protestant Christian Archaeologists Invented. To be a semite is to be an Arab. But not every arab is from Shem, some of us are from Ham as well.
We are a mixed people, even today it is culturaly acceptable among the Muslims to take a black bride. when one is older and your wife is old.
Somalis and Yemenis, have mixed with eachother for 2-3 millenia. Please do not ascribe things for my race we do not ascribe for ourselves. the Arabs conqured Egypt in the 640s, you talk as though the conquest and ethnic and racial transformation was not complete. not even solomon (sulaiman) can seperate us from North africa.
I agree, this should be archived, and after that point, each one of the issues of disagreement should be posted, clearly, with alternatives. Allowing for a reasonable period of response, and collaboration BEFORE a "NPOV" flag is put on the article itself. You should not put NPOV's on articles before discussing and contributing constructively. If that were not respected, practically every humanities article (and some science articles) would have NPOV flags up all the time! It is not good enough to simply say "the whole article is terrible, it's that bad that a NPOV should be put up anyway!" That is where I start to sense some level of racism. In my opinion there is so much BS in the Mormon articles and so much POV in the Israel/Palestine articles, that I would take the same approach, but obviously, that is not how these issues are handled. So I think you guys all get it. Let's handle this article with the same respect. Some of you in here who are NOT Black, may not be aware of some of the information in the article, and you may want to consider the notion that there are some things about Black people that you just aren't familiar with or know about. And no, I am not talking about little psysciological and psychological idiosyncracies. Now, I hope you Pedantric and Myse will "second" this. - Zaph
P.S. Invariably, when I try to login, Wikipedia experiences server issues. Often when I try to update the Black People article, Wikipedia experiences difficulties. Anyone else having this problem?
Why are there anti-Arab inuendos in the article. I have lived in Egypt and there is minimal racism there, people don't think about color. Why do you have to slander arabs in this artcle??
What is anti-Arab in the article? Arabs are not villified in here. Arabization (that is the racist practice of forcing non-arab people to adopt Arabic as a language, culture, and identity) is a real situation. I also have and know Egyptians who dispute you. You want to talk to them? In Egypt, racism prevails where Black people are in question. WHy do you accuse me of slandering Arabs when that is not happening? It is like an article about NAZIs and Jews and a German accusing the writer of slandering Germans. - Zaph
its sad that Egypt has racists when a good proportion of Egyptians are darker than American blacks. It's like they hate themselves and don't even know it.
To the person who claims that people from the Maghreb are less black I would like some proof. The countries include Morocco, Mauretania, Algeria, Niger and Libya. Every Libyan I have ever seen has been very dark skinned or mixed. Moroocians and Mauretanians are both located in West Africa so I did not know when West africans became white. If so I would at least like a refernce to something that proves so and explains why other than someone own racist point of view that all black must look like the ones they see on tv in America. Unitl proof that Maghreb is home to mostly none black is proven I will remove these falsities from the article. Jmac800
I will not stop you. I personally find the silly idea that Northern Africans are less Black annoying. BUT I don't know about those areas (except Egypt). Just get ready for the complaints from "legitimate" sources. I backed off cuz I couldn't dispute them, and yes, the racism in Libya kind of tipped it in their favor. - Zaph
Zaph one wonders why you are so passionate about "black" in the first place. here is a website showing Libyan girls. http://www.janzour.com/Traditional%20costumes.htm some appear black others appear caucasian others are what I call arabs.
here is the Libyan Highschool Militia http://www.libya-almostakbal.com/images/chad%20war/chadWar2/0000226142-009.jpg I count one black there how many do you see?
http://www.libya-almostakbal.com/images/chad%20war/chadWar2/0000226142-007.jpg Libyan boy scout troop this boy in the forground is your average libyan. Mediteranean far closer to caucasian than negroid. wouldnt you agree?
And Libyans hate outsiders any libyan would hate a german as much as they hate the black african workers.
I think this section is poorly written, poorly supported, and just plain unnecessary. For each of the myths listed, I'll explain why it's either POV or unnecessary. 1. That black Africans rarely ventured from the continent of Africa of their own free will, and instead came merely as slaves or hired soldiers to Asian civilizations. We've already got some good data here about Africoid migrations, both prehistoric and later. 2. Intelligence quotient standardized testing, a very recent Western social practice, holds some defining or relevant intellectual characteristic of black, and especially West African descendants. Poorly written, and can't we just link to Race and Intelligence? 3. Most Old World cultures that show equatorial featured peoples (Egypt, India) do not represent black people, but instead represent Caucasian people with a tan. I'm not even sure how widespread this myth is. It's news to me. In any case, Zaph has provided some awesome links proving that ancient Egyptians were black (or partly black). Can't we discuss this briefly and be done with it? 4. The growing black presence in many cultures contributed to the demise of the societies and civiilizations they inhabited. Again, who is making this claim? Other than that wacko over on [www.white-history.com white-history.com] 5. In pre-modern times, invention, discovery, and adaptation was a one way affair, only non-blacks would invent, create, or express a new idea or art form, and those in Africa would eventually mimic it. Again, misguided racist rhetoric. Not a widespread belief that needs to be counteracted here. 6. Blacks are predisposed (either biologically or inherently through cultural history) towards self-destruction. This one's just vague. 7. Black people must have originated from Caucasoid ancestors. I usually hear the opposite from racists, i.e, that black people are less evolved. Has anyone ever wondered what color apes are underneath their hair? For all we know, black people could be MORE evolved than white people. In summary, this whole section is just kind of sloppy, but what's worse, it's very negative and depressing. Why not just state positive things about black people without having to enumerate all the stupid outrageous things certain bigots believe? Can we get rid of it?
I am ok with getting rid of it. This was mostly a response to the person who insisted on putting IQ testing into the article. But I would want to leave this section in here the talk section. - Zaph
No, we cannot link it to race and intelligence, because IQ test results do not show any valid, reasonable, or logical link between race and intelligence. - Zaph.
I appreciate sincerely the editing done in that section. I have the hardest time clarifying some of the points in the article. I added one paragraph to it. Anyone want to work on the next section? - Zaph
Here was a comment from a "anonymous" source:
"Why are there anti-Arab inuendos in the article. I have lived in Egypt and there is minimal racism there, people don't think about color. Why do you have to slander arabs in this artcle??"
Let me respond directly on two fronts. Firstly, I am getting tired of Arab, European, and anyone-else-avian complaining about "anti-my-racial-group" comments in the article. There is something you have to accept, and that's historical facts and current events. In North Africa, Black people are fighting against racism, period. I have relatives from Mauretania, who are here because they were treated like Blacks in 1955 Mississippi by their government and the "Arab" neighbors. I know Egyptians who (although relatively lightskinned), consider themselves Black and consider the "arab" attitude of Egypt to be nothing more than selling out bullcrap. I know people in Ethiopia who remember when they were younger 30 to 40 years ago, that Ethiopia was practically all Black and all Christian, now every other person in Ethiopia want's to get on the Islamic-Arab bandwagon. I don't care what Black people in America think about Christianity being a white man's religion because in East Africa, whose Christian heritage is earlier than any in Western Europe, one way of selling out your Blackness and jumping on the Arab (I.E. not Black) bandwagon is by renouncing your Christian heritage to Islam. I know this, because my Ethiopian friends tell me so. This is what happens. Need I go into the silliness in Sudan?
(I see "Zaph" you have sunk to the level of comparing race to religion)
So the second front. Quote FROM the article one slander against Arabs. One IMPLIED slander. And if you can't, then take a moment and rethink something. Maybe you should not be so quick to find LEGITIMATE criticism of history and current events "slanderous". Black people are critisized all over Wikipedia, in all sorts of articles, and I have no slanderous accusation. - Zaph.
Now I doubt that you have ever read a quality book such as "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" , but in that book (written over 40 years ago) Malcolm reflects that he discovered that Ethiopia was mostly Muslim, but had held on to a "Christian" image due to the policies of the Christian ruling regime, regardless Islam and Christianity don't have anything to do with race, no matter what you say. Racism is not acknowledged in any of the holy texts of either religion. I don't know if you've really ever met anybody from Mauritania but the Arabs over there are mostly darker skinned than black Americans. Let me give YOU some advice, kid. If you see anyone slandering black people, don't sit back fam, do something. I won't deny that there are Arab bigots, there are racists in every corner of the world. The slave trade was run by Whites, Blacks, and Arabs and everybody was wrong to do it. I simply don't see the reason Arabs were singled out while other blatant racists were not. Let me now tell you something about myself. I am an Arab but my grandfather was an Arab black man. When I went to live back in my Palestine, I expirienced no discrimination like I did in America. Over there, I made good natured jokes against lighter skinned people and they did the same to me for my complexion. No body "looked at me weird", and there was no hostility. Educate yourself more fam, and God bless.
Ok I snipped 95% of the conversation, where I think the content went from racial (black people) to religious. feel free to correct, or update. You, TerrelWatkins~NIZ, feel free to continue this on my talk page. I have a whole section devoted to this coversation, and I have no problem clarifying the points both of us make, that will prevent any confusion. I don't want to email because it's less productive, and I want WITNESSES. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Zaphnathpaaneah
I am going to standardize the first part of the article to reflect a continuity with the other articles (White, Arab, Jewish, Latino, Asian, etc). I want to AVOID trying to "be like" the white people article, however, the first paragraph looks like a group of people took a lot of effort to COLLABORATE on it. The first paragraph looks like an objective approach, ill adopt the format, for the readers' sakes, however the important distinctive differences will remain. - Zaph
It is not a "claim" that the one drop rule was invented by white politicians for the sake of white social sensiblities in the 18th and 19th century. Laws were made based on this rule, i took "It has been claimed that" out of the statement in the "Criticisms of the term" section. Come on. - Zaph
Look, I won't ask you to spell out my name in it's entirety. Pedantic is not easy to remember at this point, and I make not intention of misspelling. I'll try to cut and paste from no on, but I'll call you Ped till then (just kidding). -- 68.60.55.162 00:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Zaphmacarana
Let this section contain wording that needs to be changed. Primarily, my concern is that the wording used often reflects racialized sentiments, and not neutrality.
For example "miscegenation" would not be a good choice to describe the mixing and intermarriage between Black and Semetic north Africans in ancient history. It implies some kind of illicit or improper behavior.
Bravo Paul, you have elaborated on something I have had difficulty doing. And "essentialist" is a word I am going to use now on. This is the same reason I have issues with "sub-saharan" and "true negro". - Zaph.
How much more do we need to do to remove the flags anyway? - Zaph
I'd say the frequent, matter-of-fact claims of eurocentrism on the part of scholars and people in general need to go. Unless the author says "I am eurocentric, europe is great and wonderful, and this is how I feel about x", then we need some real proof that the author or idea being quoted is, in fact, eurocentric. ThePedanticPrick 19:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I was just looking through the previous edits to see what's going on. I found 152.163.101.11's vandalism quite entertaining. It's the little things that racists do to give our bland boring politically correct days a little zap of fun huh? - Zaph, one of the original inhabitents of the welfare office.
Original paragraph:
Many scholars criticize the hypodescent rule. Although others theorise that their motives for doing so are often to limit any social movement towards economic self-determination among black diaspora. The One Drop Rule, now villified by many Eurocentric scholars (especially when applied to ancient cultures by Afrocentric scholars), had been established by white politicans generations ago, to prevent racial mixing. This one drop rule, which white American, Australian, and, to a lesser extent, other colonies had established for the sake of upholding white society's perceptions of purity with its own identity, became the de facto social experience for black people across the United States. For the sake of moral solidarity against the presumed immoral oppression, this rule was embraced by black people in America, especially in a Christian context, and the effect has become a permanent aspect of black identity. Once black literature and intellectual expression experienced a boom in the beginning of the 20th century, the hypodescent rule is said to have become a new threat to European colonial ambitions, and to white racial-social controls.
Comments:
The original paragraph conflates hypodescent (the notion that anyone of even slight sub-Saharan phenotype is Black) with the one-drop rule (that someone of utterly European appearance and White self-identity but with a known trace of African admixture is also involuntarily Black). The former custom dates to the early colonial period (around 1700) while the latter did not become widespread or statutory until the early 20th century. The former is common in other former British colonies (substituting ‘’Coloured’’ for ‘’Black’’) while the latter is unique to the United States.
FrankWSweet 17:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Let us clarify this then:
I had written a fairly long reply, but I would rather instead just see you make whatever changes you feel you want to make, and lets see where we go. The problem is, you are seperating two things, one which entails the other, and they are not mutually exclusive in any event. The one-drop rule is a form of hypodescent, and Black by hypodescent would include all other races (including white) -- 68.60.55.162 00:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
Sorry, but that is not what I was trying to say. What I meant to say was:
Hypodescent — the notion that anyone of even slight sub-Saharan phenotype is Black. For example, it would be an expression of hypodescent to consider Tiger Woods and Halle Berry to be Black, despite that the fact that each has less than 50% African genetic admixture.
One-drop rule — the notion that someone of utterly European appearance and White self-identity but with a known trace of African admixture is also involuntarily Black. For example, it would be one-drop rule to consider Carol Channing or Martin Sheen (or his sons Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen) to be Black, despite the fact that they look White and consnder themselves White, merely because they have acknowledged Black ancestry (Channing's father, Sheen's grandmother).
In short: Hypodescent is "If you look even slightly African then you are Black." One-drop is, "If you do not look even slightly African and do not consider yourself Black, but you acknowledge Black ancestry, then you are Black anyway."
As you say, the one-drop rule is hypodescent taken to its ridiculous extreme. The former depends upon the later. American society could not have invented the one-drop rule had it not already subscribed to hypodescent. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive because one (one-drop) is a subset of the other (hypodescent), sort of the way the concepts "nickels" and "coins" are not mutually exclusive.
My point was that the mild form of hypodescent (labeling Halle Berry and Tiger Woods black) is historically old, dating from about 1705 in the U.S., and geographically widespread (common in most Anglophone countries). But the hypodescent extreme of one-drop rule (labeling Martin Sheen and Carol Channing black) is historically recent (1910) and unique to the United States. In short, although one notion depends upon the other, they are empirically different concepts, different social phenomena, that arose in different centuries, were adopted in different lands, and were designed to serve different ends. I thought it would be wise to avoid conflating them. I have no opinion (and little interest) as to the motives of either Whites or Blacks who either oppose or advocate either of the two notions.
I had already made the changes before I posted my original comments above. -- FrankWSweet 01:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I saw them, I think it's ok, although the statement "to resolve their social status" is just a little too nicey nice. It brings a picture of the nice, not-really racist white politicians in Virginia calmly saying (for the sake of good reasons) that the children should be considered black. Let's reword that to reflect the reality of the slavery movement that was gaining momentum in those days please. - -- 208.254.174.148 04:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)Zaph
If I may be so bold, it seems still rather soft. I mean "the europeans were exempt." Almost sounds like native americans were the ones deciding which kids were black and which ones were white. There is a lack of connection between the subject and object in the structure of the idea. Who was this unseen entity that was making these decisions?
Yes, I think you did go a long way explaining it, but you should make a section in there. I still think you are downplaying the racist, self-righteous prejudice behind the history, after all, at some point indentured servitude became slavery for black people only, and that relates closely to this. But just spend time editing it, and in good faith we can make sure to make it work. I personally think that a lot of factors went into European-Americans esp southerners having a deep seeded prejudice against Black people. Remember, at some point, the Antebellum culture had a widespread practice of extra-marital affair, and interracial sex with white men taking their black slaves and having children, whom they also would abandon to slavery or some lesser form of it. (Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings is one example) This contrasting sharply with Christian values of fidelity and family and I am convinced there was a psychological dysfunction involved, not just "planters", because it was accepted as normal in the south, and it took the writings of Harriet Jacobs who lived in that environment to really open the doors of that. Now this isn't me whining about bad old white man. This is me illustrating that we need to be candid about what happened, and not downplay what we don't like to acknowledge. The Bible-belt south has been revered for historically being the Christian heart of America. But this kind of activity was morally neutral and hypocritically acceptable, regardless of how many or few slave owners there were in proportion to the population. It was a cultural norm, and if Harriet Jacobs, a slave was able to describe it as she saw it so clearly, then we need to re-evaluate how we see it now. It's not a matter of economics. And in fact, I am against the philosophy that all black-white racial problems in the west are based on economic motivations. -- 68.60.55.162 00:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
apparently some clown whose pornographic name I will not mention wants to entertain himself, so I had to check the reverts to make sure he wasn't a smokescreen to make other less obvious changes to the article. I kind of caught on as to how a vandal will make some obvious ignorance and then some "hero" will change things back... but not to exactly what was in the article before...and we overlook our "hero's" changes because we assume he just did reverts from the vandal's obvious mess.... drowning out the subtle with the obvious. But it looks like we are playing fair in here. Thank you Paul, TMS, and Frank, how can we ban blankey-blank-man? -- 208.254.174.148 04:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
I figured out anonymous Arab person's whole problem with my position on here: "I simply don't see the reason Arabs were singled out while other blatant racists were not." - the comments from the unknown... My response is what the $#&@#^ do you think I have been doing in this page? Heck you don't even realize what you say. Why is one "racist" singled out, but the "other" racists are not? In essence you ADMIT there is a real issue with Arabization, but you just don't like that the focus is on Arabs. Well you know what? Take a number, just about everyone, Jews, Arabs, Asians, higher Caste East Indians have made the complaint you made... It goes something like this
Did you read the whole article? Arabization AND Latinoization AND European Colonialism, AND Eurocentric Jewish rejection of black Jews, AND... The point is, this is a global issue. People in China rioted (with national "moral" outrage no less!) when African students were dating Chinese women in the late 80s (they don't riot when white people do it, or arabs!). East Indian hindu fundamentalism oppresses Dalits to this day. The Papuans on the Java side of New Guinea are treated like crap by the Jakarta government.... I could go on and on. So you being Arab need to get a grip and, (pun intended) stop calling the tea kettle black. This conversation has ended. -- 208.254.174.148 07:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
I think this part should go
"In short, hypodescent and the color line itself were designed to avert servile insurrection at a unique time and place. It was the only time and place with more forced laborers of European descent than of African descent. Virginia was the only New World colony where such a method of permanently splitting potential insurrectionist allies could have worked. No other colony would have benefited from splitting Europeans from Africans by an endogamous barrier. This is because no other colony, whether British, French, Dutch, Spanish, or Portuguese, had such a high fraction (more than half) of European forced laborers. None could benefit by preventing mixing between Europeans and Africans, and so none had to criminalize intermarriage. Consequently, none ever needed to invent or enforce an endogamous color line nor adopt hypodescent."
There awere many other places in the new world where there were more than half the population being African. Brazil, Mexico at some points, Puerto Rico before 1896, Cuba, British Honduras(Belize), Jamaica, Guadeloupe, Martinique, etc... Also, I think the section is more of a discussion on "the History (or the origin) of American bans on interracial marriages. Is there a way to shorten the section, and/or maybe link it to another page? -- 68.60.55.162 00:10, 4 December 2005 (UTC)Zaph
You wrote: I still think you are downplaying the racist, self-righteous prejudice behind the history, after all, at some point indentured servitude became slavery for black people only, and that relates closely to this.
Sorry, I do not see it that way. At your suggestion, I was trying to explain the origins of hypodescent. I was not trying to explain the origins of "racism" nor of slavery. The Chesapeake planters were ruthless men who did whatever it took to rule and become rich. Feel free to characterize this stance as "racist, self-righteous prejudice." But in this they were just like the Spanish hidalgos, the Portuguese bandeirantes, the French in Saint Domingue, and the Muslim Wolofs in Senegal. All of those people can be characterized as having "racist, self-righteous prejudice" because all of them enslaved Bantu-speaking peoples without qualm. But only the Chesapeake planters invented hypodescent. And the invention of hypodescent is the only thing that I was trying to explain.
You wrote: I personally think that a lot of factors went into European-Americans esp southerners having a deep seeded prejudice against Black people. <snip>
All that may be so. But I was not writing about the origins of "prejudice," deep-seated or not. I was writing only about the origins of hypodescent in the 17th century. This was long before slavery spread beyond Dutch New York, British Chesapeake, or Barbadian South Carolina. Long before the Second Great Awakening. Long before Jefferson, and Jacobs, and the Bible belt. Long before the phenomena that you refer to even existed. In the 17th century Chesapeake, intermarriage was common, Africans populated all social classes, including being among the wealthiest slaveowning planters. Northampton County, Virginia, was typical of the early colonial economy. In 1666, about 300 of Virginia’s colonists were of African ancestry. At that time, 11 percent of African colonists and 18 percent of European colonists owned either land or slaves. This comes to a 61 percent ratio of Black-to-White net worth—higher than the United States would ever see again in its history. For comparison, two centuries later in 1860, the county’s Black-to-White property ownership ratio was zero percent. By 1980, the overall U.S. Black-to-White net-worth ratio had risen to 15.4 percent, but by 1995 it had fallen again to 12.6 percent.
You wrote: I am against the philosophy that all black-white racial problems in the west are based on economic motivations.
You lost me. I was not writing about "all black-white racial problems." I was not writing about "black-white racial problems." I was not writing about "racial problems." I was not writing about "problems." At your suggestion, I was writing about the origins of hypodescent. That is all.
You wrote: There were many other places in the new world where there were more than half the population being African....
Now you really lost me. Did you read what I wrote? What made the 17th-century Chesapeake unique was that Africans were a small minority of the forced laborers. 7,000 out of the 9,000 Virginians held in bondage were of European descent and only 2,000 were of Native American and/or African. Please read that sentence again. Of 9000 forced laborers, 7000 were Europeans and only 2000 were Africans! I agree that many other colonies had a larger ratio of Africans to Europeans. In fact, every other forced-labor colony had a larger ratio of Africans to Europeans. Of course. That was precisely my point. It was not that they had too many Africans, It was that they had too few!
You wrote: I think the section is more of a discussion on "the History (or the origin) of American bans on interracial marriages.
Yes it is. That was our goal--to explain the origins of hypodescent. You cannot have hypodescent between two populations unless you have an endogamous color line between them. Countries/cultures lacking an endogamous color line lack the concept of hypodescent. And you cannot have an endogamous color line between populations without criminalizing intermarriage between them. Countries/cultures lacking reluctance to intermarry lack an endogamous color line. (Just imagine trying to convince an Englishman that a Yorkshireman is someone with any Yorkshire ancestry, not matter where he was born, raised, or lives. The only way you could even begin would be forbid Yorkshire exogamy for generations.) Whence sprang the notion of hypodescent? From the presence of a color line. Whence sprang the color line? From the criminalization of intermarriage. Whence sprang the criminalization of intermarriage? From an attempt to prevent servile insurrection. In short, preventing servile insurrection-->criminalized intermarriage-->created a color line-->spawned the notion of hypodescent.
If you would like to read others who have researched the same facts and reached the same conclusions, I recommend: Theodore Allen, The Invention of the White Race, 2 vols. (London: Verso, 1994); Lerone Bennett Jr., The Shaping of Black America (Chicago: Johnson, 1975); T. H. Breen and Stephen Innes, Myne Owne Ground": Race and Freedom on Virginia's Eastern Shore, 1640-1676 (New York: Oxford University, 1980); Marvin Harris, Patterns of Race in the Americas (Westport CT: Greenwood, 1964); Edmund Sears Morgan, American Slavery, American Freedom: The Ordeal of Colonial Virginia (New York: Norton, 1975); Audrey Smedley, Race in North America: Origin and Evolution of a Worldview, 2nd ed. (Boulder: Westview, 1999). Bennett's book is the easiest read.
You wrote: Is there a way to shorten the section, and/or maybe link it to another page?
I don't know about linking it to another page, but we can certainly shorten it or, better yet, eliminate it altogether. Seriously, I really think that you need to give some careful thought to just what you want to convey with this section. The original paragraph was factually inaccurate in its conflation of hypodescent with the one-drop rule. I fixed it. You wanted an account of the origin of hypodescent. I wrote this in one paragraph. You wanted an in-depth analysis of the motives of the planter elite who invented the notion. It did so based on the works of the seven most highly respected historians of the period. If this motivational analysis is too long, we can revert to the short version without the motivation analysis. But, in all honesty, I do not think that is the problem.
It seems to me that you want to read a different motivation into the 17th-century gentry who invented hypodescent than the one that I and a half-dozen other historians have concluded. If so, please feel free to write one that reflects your conclusions. Just bear in mind that I would expect you to use scholarly sources. Peer-reviewed historians would be nice. Well-known Black ones, like Bennett, would be even better. -- FrankWSweet 02:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Hey I'm cool with much of the content you put in, although i disagree with some of it, but honestly I think we should put it into the "one drop rule" section, and maybe summarize greatly the end result in here. I have been trying to shorten some of the other sections as well, so this isn't to conveniently erase what I disagree with, I honestly don't find it to be in opposition to my perspective anyway, just we need to put more ideas into it (which calls for its own section). - Zaph-- 208.254.174.148 12:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
This is where the issue becomes murky. We know there were African and European indentured servants, a period of 7 years. What I cannot figure out is how the first judgement condeming an African servant to perpetual slavery, and punishing a white indentured servant to merely two or three extra years of service was done to prevent more slave insurrections. Why not punish them both equally? The intermarriage ban would have to be designed after an establishment of African based slavery, not the other way around. - Zaph
Lets look at one example, Anthony Johnson who lived in Virginia in 1670. He was an indentured servant, he became free, and like other white indentured servants, he became a landowner and successful. He moved to Maryland, and for some odd reason his property was confiscated in Virgina by the government because he was originally from Africa. Not because he was a former indentured servant, not because he was formerly non Christian, but according to Virginia because he was a "negroe and by consequence an alien." Then and only then did the English system respond by increasing the slave trade. And that slave trade made white indentured servants obsolete for the most part. But the alienation of Africans occurred not because of any fear of slave insurrection. THe next question is, ok were the children of these alienated africans (whom were also of European descent) also alienated? - Zaph
I believe from what I read, and I did read it, that your saying that hyperdescent comes from simply a need to maintain enough of a population to work the fields? My response is, why not just pay the workers regardlesss of their racial background. During the middle of the 17th century, in Virginia, there were black plantation owners. However, there was an attitude that Africans were not worthy of the same respect as whites, in part because they did not have a Christian background in their original cultures (which is hypocritical, as Europeans were not the original christians, nor were their religious beliefs originally Christian), and secondly Africans were not as numerous as the white indentured servants that were the more threatening competition (especially if Black slavery would be established, causing even more of an economic hardship on the poor white working class.). What I believe you may overlook is the abundance of Native American land that was doled out (again by establishing another group of people as sub-human) to these poor whites, and they thus became landowners and had to have slaves as well. You see where I am going? The hyperdescent did not play a role in creating slavery or stopping slave rebellions, it was more of a result of the established order. So here is where we differ: You say "Whence sprang the criminalization of intermarriage? From an attempt to prevent servile insurrection." - Zaph
I say: "Whence sprang the criminalization of intermarriage? From an attempt to maintain a slave based economy AND from a racist perception of Black Africans as an alien person (no longer equitably human). This "alien'ness" becomes spread out as an inherent human or spiritual defect. It came from an attitude that since Europeans were by and large Christianized at the time, and Africans were not, the individual Africans by this association had no moral rights to the same equal treatment even if they converted. Somehow there was an inferred biological or physical ineptitude that was associated with Black Africans, and this sub-humanness was "passed down" to the children, tainting their bloodline whether or not the child was of white parentage or not. In fact, the fear was not of slave insurrections, but of a tainting of the white race and the drawing away of white women to black men. (you might want to review some of these laws at this period as they penalized white women and black men more harshly or singled them out for punishment more often than whitemen and black women) - Zaph
All servants imported and brought into the Country. . . who were not Christians in their native Country. . . shall be accounted and be slaves. All Negro, mulatto and Indian slaves within this dominion. . . shall be held to be real estate. If any slave resists his master. . . correcting such slave, and shall happen to be killed in such correction. . . the master shall be free of all punishment. . . as if such accident never happened. - Virginia General Assembly declaration, 1705 (before any miscognation law was passed) - Zaph
Perhaps the original intention in that part of Virginia is as you say, but lets look at what the actual court documents themselves describe. (This will take the guesswork out of what is considered a credible source).
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/sthtml/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1h314t.html - Court document regarding Anthony Johnson, a Black land-OWNER.
http://www.lovingday.org/map.htm - a link showing the history of interracial bans with a year by year comparison from state to state.
http://www.oah.org/pubs/magazine/family/cruz-berson.html - Miscogenation Laws in the US by Barbara Cruz and Michael Berson
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/
In An American Dilemma (1975), Gunner Myrdal, a Swedish economoist states that miscegenation policy developed because intermarriage was a principal concern in the white man’s order of discrimination. - Zaph
now the question is, why and how does this relate to hyperdescent. Well, I am trying to establish that the anti Black motivations PRECEEDED or at the very least were intertwined the ideas of banning interracial marriage. Hyperdescent was in addition a gender based, and social institution, not an economic one. A white man marrying or cohabiting interracially would experience a different reaction from virginia courts than a white woman. Only five states had anti-miscognation laws by the time of the civil war. Hyperdescent, or the one drop rule, developed after these events were established, not before. I could not find any law in Virginia preceeding 1800 that says "a person of any percentage of negro ancestry is deemed to be black". And i still do not see the economic "logic" that allegedly was the root cause of the one drop rule going that far back in Virginia. - Zaph
I think we also may be mixing two ideas. There is intermarriage and it's laws. Then there is the status of the children, from Nth generation of African ancestry. I'm saying the one-drop rule was established due to racist attitudes, those racist attitudes may or may not have been the result of greed. But they were at least concurrent (I believe the attitudes against Africans were before the first slave insurrections) with the first slavery laws in Virginia. I do not believe that a fear of (predominantly white) slave insurrections at this early time would be the inspiration for white Virginians and Virginian judges calling a child of various degrees of parentage "black". I believe the attitude that black people were tainted aliens of lesser humanness were the motivating factors. - Zaph
Virginia's list of events regarding slavery, black people and intermarriage 1641 - Black people first encounter racism in an institutional form. 1662 - All children born to slave mothers are slaves. And interracial marriage becomes illegal. 1691 - Mixed Children by white women places the white woman into slavery. 1705 - All people from Africa are slaves.
Derrick A. Bell, Race, Racism, and American Law, 2d ed. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1980). Black Historian Gunner Myrdal An American Dilemma: The Negro Problem in Modern Democracy. Pulitizer Prize winning author. -- 208.254.174.148 04:29, 4 December 2005 (
You wrote: What you are saying is that only the Chesapeake planters invented [hypodescent], ok, fine I had originally agreed with that position, but on your request that I investigate the matter further, i found that is not the case. It seems to me that although Africans had succeeded in Virginia in the early time of the settlement, European ignorance and prejudice was present and growing at that time.
You wrote: Why and how did it spread across the country, and why was it upheld legally even after slavery ended? Why for example did the Mormon church establish it as an order from God in their religion?
You wrote: Your response is that [hypodescent] was invented as a continuation of forbidding intermarriage between whites and blacks, and this was established to stop slave rebellions. So ultimately, the goal was to stop slave rebellions.
You wrote: Why not punish them both equally? The intermarriage ban would have to be designed after an establishment of African based slavery, not the other way around.
You wrote: The intermarriage ban would have to be designed after an establishment of African based slavery, not the other way around.
You wrote: Lets look at one example, Anthony Johnson who lived in Virginia in 1670. He was an indentured servant, he became free, and like other white indentured servants, he became a landowner and successful. He moved to Maryland, and for some odd reason his property was confiscated in Virgina by the government because he was originally from Africa. Not because he was a former indentured servant, not because he was formerly non Christian, but according to Virginia because he was a "negroe and by consequence an alien."
:by the creation of a total system of domination, a system that penetrated every corner of Colonial life and made use of every Colonial institution. Nothing was left to chance. The assemblies, the courts, the churches, and the press were thrown into the breach. A massive propaganda campaign confused and demoralized the public, and private vigilante groups supplemented the official campaign of hate and terror. -- Lerone Bennett Jr., The Shaping of Black America (Chicago: Johnson, 1975), 74-75.
You wrote: Then and only then did the English system respond by increasing the slave trade. And that slave trade made white indentured servants obsolete for the most part. But the alienation of Africans occurred not because of any fear of slave insurrection.
You wrote: The next question is, ok were the children of these alienated Africans (whom were also of European descent) also alienated?
You wrote: I believe from what I read, and I did read it, that your saying that [hypodescent] comes from simply a need to maintain enough of a population to work the fields?
and "In short, preventing servile insurrection-->criminalized intermarriage-->created a color line-->spawned the notion of hypodescent." You had made a cause and effect link leading to "servile insurrection"as the ultimate first cause, or ultimate goal. Again you say "It seems to me that you want to read a different motivation into the 17th-century gentry who INVENTED hypodescent than the one that I and a half-dozen other historians have concluded. " (empathsis mine)
You wrote: Why not just pay the workers regardless of their racial background?
I'm going to stop here, this has become a mess, of YOUR doing. I will restart the topic below. I am kind of pissed that you would go through all of this rigamorole, and even though you seem to keep an air of seriousness, you do not show CONSISTENCY in your position! SO I am starting it over.
You wrote: During the middle of the 17th century, in Virginia, there were black plantation owners. However, there was an attitude that Africans were not worthy of the same respect as whites, in part because they did not have a Christian background in their original cultures (which is hypocritical, as Europeans were not the original christians, nor were their religious beliefs originally Christian).
You wrote: Africans were not as numerous as the white indentured servants that were the more threatening competition (especially if Black slavery would be established, causing even more of an economic hardship on the poor white working class.).
You wrote: What I believe you may overlook is the abundance of Native American land that was doled out (again by establishing another group of people as sub-human) to these poor whites, and they thus became landowners and had to have slaves as well.
You wrote: [Hypodescent] did not play a role in creating slavery or stopping slave rebellions…
You wrote: Whence sprang the criminalization of intermarriage? From … a racist perception of Black Africans as an alien person (no longer equitably human).
You wrote: This "alien'ness" becomes spread out as an inherent human or spiritual defect. It came from an attitude that since Europeans were by and large Christianized at the time, and Africans were not, the individual Africans by this association had no moral rights to the same equal treatment even if they converted. Somehow there was an inferred biological or physical ineptitude that was associated with Black Africans, and this sub-humanness was "passed down" to the children, tainting their bloodline whether or not the child was of white parentage or not.
You wrote: you might want to review some of these laws at this period as they penalized white women and black men more harshly or singled them out for punishment more often than whitemen and black women.
You quoted from the 1705 law that first made hypodescent statutory via a 1/8 rule.
You cited: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/sthtml/
You cited: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1h314t.html - Court document regarding Anthony Johnson, a Black land-OWNER.
You cited: http://www.lovingday.org/map.htm - a link showing the history of interracial bans with a year by year comparison from state to state.
You cited: http://www.oah.org/pubs/magazine/family/cruz-berson.html - Miscegenation Laws in the US by Barbara Cruz and Michael Berson
You cited: http://academic.udayton.edu/race/
You wrote: In An American Dilemma (1975), Gunner Myrdal, a Swedish economoist states that miscegenation policy developed because intermarriage was a principal concern in the white man’s order of discrimination.
You wrote: I am trying to establish that the anti Black motivations PRECEEDED ... the ideas of banning interracial marriage.
You wrote: Hyperdescent was in addition a gender based, and social institution, not an economic one.
You wrote: A white man marrying or cohabiting interracially would experience a different reaction from virginia courts than a white woman. Only five states had anti-miscegnation laws by the time of the civil war.
You wrote: I could not find any law in Virginia preceeding 1800 that says "a person of any percentage of negro ancestry is deemed to be black". And i still do not see the economic "logic" that allegedly was the root cause of the one drop rule going that far back in Virginia.
You wrote: I think we also may be mixing two ideas.
You wrote: I'm saying the one-drop rule was established due to racist attitudes, those racist attitudes may or may not have been the result of greed.
You wrote: But they were at least concurrent (I believe the attitudes against Africans were before the first slave insurrections) with the first slavery laws in Virginia.
You wrote: I do not believe that a fear of (predominantly white) slave insurrections at this early time would be the inspiration for white Virginians and Virginian judges calling a child of various degrees of parentage "black".
You wrote: I believe the attitude that black people were tainted aliens of lesser humanness were the motivating factors.
The question: Why was hypodescent (one drop rule) established in the USA? Zaph believes it was motivated out of a white sense of superiority, and a white sense of black inferiority. This was due in part to White aristocratic ambition, greed, and perhaps of associating cultural differences between blacks and whites with human-ness. It would possibly be encouraged with the state that many Africans came to the colony, as slaves, and no examples of aristocratic Africans coming over on their own. Frank had earlier made a connection between hypodescent and slave insurrections, however this link seems to be refuted in the itemized responses he made above. So now, that plus the phrase "off topic" makes it difficult to understand his position. I am convinced that the slave insurrections were not the root cause, as Frank illustrated, because, as Frank pointed out, Africans were a small minority of slaves, and inconsequential to the nature of the overwhelmingly white slave rebellions. Since at this time slavey was indentured servitude of 7 years, there is no reason why singling out africans for lifelong slavery would reduce the misery of the indentured servants whom were white. I doubt that a far-reaching goal of ending white indentured servitude was what the colonial administrators had in mind when they decided to exclude black africans for perpetual slavery. Finally, when you Frank, respond to someone's comments. it's much more sensible to clarify your position. You indicated "off-topic" so many times, if you were seriously seeing it that way, you should merely clarify your position in a clear concise response. It's unereasonable to expect anyone to stay on topic (you yourself seemed to get off your own position) with itemized, line by line rebuttals. Save that kind of thing for the newsgroups.
Here are two sentances Frank made.
Then later you say that I reverted again to conflating hypodescent (the specific notion that you are Black even if you have less than half African ancestry) with the one-drop rule!
Frank, i think the obvious quesiton is, where does the line between the first end, and the second begin. Why don't you discuss where and how the hypodescent evolved into the one drop rule. For me, I honestly think you are spending too much energy trying to narrowly limit the scope and relevance of hypodescent in the broader context of being black. The one drop rule would take generations (at least three, maybe more... about 75-100 years) to even have examples from the first intermarriages in Chesapeake. So where we are at, seriously is how the one-drop rule (which is a form of hypodescent) came to play (and I did consistently use 18th and 19th century examples). You seemed to nitpick at the difference between the two, ok fine, I respected that, but now you are trying to convince that the origin of the hypodescent was "NOT" a racist origin, but purely a social and economic one. Funny you should mention the Vedda history in the Hindu religion, because I had WANTED to incorporate that into the article a few months back, but I could not link that to the racism in Europe, except that I have a theory that it migrated via the middle east through Arab slave trading (and as you can see further above I am still arguing with someone who is offended by that).
So you are not aware of the scope of where I am coming from. Why don't you just make the section. However I will not let the racist attitude and motivation be downplayed in this article as to the origin of the one drop rule and hypodescent in general in the USA. We know that racism had a role in it.
Now, I seriously did not go past half of the items in the list. I will not read and respond to discussions that way in WIkipedia indefinitely, otherwise each section will be overly confused.
(removed orginal comment but leaving zaph's self-self dialogue)
Awww that is so cheezy. I don't even get to see her comments in this discussion and now you all want to silence her. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 18:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Yea it looks like they are trying the nuclear options this week! -- Zaphnathpaaneah 10:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Specifically, how does its goal differ from that of the African American aricle? At first glance, the difference seems to be that the present article is permeated with moral judgement towards ideological concerns rather than NPOV. But a deeper reading suggests that this article may have been originally intended to be about the Pan-African notion of "Blackness" as a global self-identity associated with colonialism and the post-1500 African Diaspora, while the African-American article is focussed on the U.S. ethnicity.
Whatever its goal, its has serious problems of factual inaccuracy and logical fallacy. An example of factual inaccuracy (among many) is the claim that the very dark skin tone of the Bantu-speaking peoples is the "default human type as far back as the human species is known to exist." In fact, the oldest known genetic populations of our species are the light-skinned Khoisan and Ethiopians. [2] An example of logical fallacy (again among many) is the claim that many "black people in the west ... [like Brazilians] do not consider themselves to be black." Just imagine yourself reading that "many who are actually Republicans do not consider themselves to be Republicans but register as Democrats instead." You see the problem? Either Blackness (in the sense meant by the article) is inherent or it is ascribed. You cannot have it both ways in the same sentence.
Nevertheless, the many innaccuracies and logical fallacies would be relatively easy to clean up.
The deeper problem is defining just what the article is supposed to be about. If it is about the physical anthropology and genetics of the thousands of diverse populations in sub-Saharan Africa and how a small band from one of those populations (mtDNA haplotype L3) crossed the Straits of Bab-el-Mandeb to colonize the planet, then the ideological definitions of Blackness are irrelevant, since the ideology of Pan-Africanism did not exist 70 millennia ago. On the other hand, if the article is about the ideology of pan-Africanism (the ethnic and cultural commonalities among dark-skinned people all over the world—especially their mistreatment and marginalization by Western culture), then the genetic and phylogeography stuff is irrelevant.
So, can anyone tell me (in 100 words or less <grin>) what is the goal of this article?
Oh, yes. I just started contributing to Wikipedia a few days ago and there is something else that I do not understand. Just what does it mean when an article is "tagged"? Who tags articles and why? -- FrankWSweet 17:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
This is in response to: "I want to see how the article changes without any black person moderating it for a while. I am doing my own experiment. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 21:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)"
I find it deeply offensive that someone should publicly attribute a "racial" membership to me, knowing nothing about me. There is undoubtedly a way of lodging a formal complaint to whatever governing body is responsible for Wikipedia. I shall find it. -- FrankWSweet 03:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is your best access to that governing body http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RPA IF you are going to formally complain to Wikipedia because I assumed you were of some particular race, knock yourself out. I have a right to think that way and further, if just the mere use of a racial membership offends you, then you are really going overboard. IN fact, now that I recall, that comment had nothing to do with you. I seriously want to see where the article goes without any of the black contributors for a period of time (like a week or two). It seems to me that much of the controversy in here, are from people who are not black. I am left with the impression that Wikipedia contributiors think that I (and other black contributors) have a POV habit, yet I see the same lack of consistency in the "Caucasoid" and "White People" articles (Recall the capital W and B issue) So let me help you logde your formal complaint, in fact I will lodge a complaint and refer to you as the offended person, to make it easier for you to get to this governing body. Because it seems to me that offense you indicate is more like a smokescreen for ultimately censoring me from contributing. I want to see if the Wikipedia governing body that you would refer me to would penalize me in some way for attributing a racial membership (either inadvertently or not) to you. Who knows, with luck, maybe they will ban me for...what... I suppose this is slander of some kind? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 10:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
P.S. if it offends you deeply, I imagine you can never be one to say that "race doesn't really matter to me". I get publicly attributed all the time. I really don't care. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 10:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
There you go Frank http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Remove_personal_attacks#WHere_is_the_Wikipedia_governing_body.3F -- Zaphnathpaaneah 10:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC) (the racial attributator)
This article persistently uses the word "dalit" (i.e. the so-called "untouchables" in India) as though it were a racial term. As the article Dalit makes clear, the term does not describe a race. The most influential dalit in Indian history B. R. Ambedkar would not, I think, be considered to be "black" by most people (though of course it's impossible to say for certain what 'most people' would say given that "black" is not a clearly defined term) [4]. It's true that the some individuals within the modern dalit movement have appropriated the history of Aryan invasion theory and of race-based civil rights protest to position themselves in racial terms, something that's partly assisted by the Indian legal concept of scheduled tribes. However, it is surely inappropriate to refer to "dalits" as though they are unproblematically a race and that that "race" can inproblematically be deemed as black. As the discussion above indicates we need to be clearer about the ambiguity and problematic nature of this terminology. Paul B 12:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
This is all based on a false assumption that "blackness" is defined in the same scope as "Whiteness". Despite your best intentions of neutrality, you are still working from a "white" standard and trying to view blackness from that standard. Dalits, are known in Veddoid scriptures as black, they are considerd black by the upper castes, and have been frequently referred with the term "black". I certainly agree that black is not a clearly defined term, and part of the reason that I am very interested in the article is clarify more. Certainly, blackness is not exclusive to those of African, and certainly not strictly West African descent. In regards to people of India read:
Also, bear in mind that the word "Dalit" wasn't even used as a word until the 20th Century. Next understand that the issue here is not about race. I have tried to avoid using "race" in this article. As I understand the concept of race, there is a heavy "DNA" based element, and I clearly indicated that black people do not fit into any specific DNA classification (precisely, that DNA should not be used as the primary or sole standard for defining black people or black identity). So if you on the one hand say that "blackness is not a race, because race does not exist" it's contradictory to say that "dalits" are not black, as you cannot distinguish the racial misunderstanding from the accurate collective world identity. I certainly see unique cultural, social, and historical parallels and characteristics with dalits (considered an offensive word by the way) and black africans -- Zaphnathpaaneah 07:31, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I Think what really catches my attention is that people want to steer away from "race" in general, and specifically rather not identify asians in a racial context. However, often the same people will look at blackness from a racial context and then 'rightfully' explain that asians should not be included no matter what their experiences or phenotype. That's not a good way to handle this article. Black is an identity that varies in different parts of the world. The two main components of this identity seem to be "dark skin" and "Equatorial origins". One reason why I want black contributors to hold off on contributing is because I want to see ALL of the best objections and for us to collaborate on discussing them en masse instead of dealing with one at a time for the next 2 years. --
Zaphnathpaaneah
07:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay guys, I have finished studying this entire article, the comparable article White (people), and the non-archived discussions of this article. For what it is worth, here are my thoughts.
Let me first make clear that I have no stake or interest in this article per se. I was asked by A.D. Powell (an essayist and book author whose work my company has published) to correct a few factual errors in a few Wikipedia articles regarding the timing of certain historical events. Upon correcting an error in this article I was foolishly dragged into explaining the motives of long-dead legislators, a topic irrelevant to this article. I regret this involvement. I am perfectly happy to walk away and leave this article as it is. Since I am here, however, a sense of duty compels me of offer suggestions for trying to salvage it, So, here goes.
The article is presently a joke at best, and a disorganized collage of factual inaccuracies and logical inconsistencies at worst. Judging by the discussion record, this disaster seems to be due to at least one individual who apparently has an unshakeable POV agenda but dodges all efforts to find out what it is. I have concluded that the article cannot be fixed in situ because its organizational flaws are inherent, even to lacking a defined topic.
Its title implies that the article will inform about how, when, where, and why certain populations around the world have come to be called "Black," and by whom. I submit that an intellectually honest effort to do this would start with the last point, "by whom."
Consider three alternative answers to the "by whom" question: themselves, Americans, and Europeans. Most of the peoples mentioned in the article as it stands do not consider themselves "Black" nor are they considered so by their neighboring populations. And yet, Americans tend to see many of these same people as Black, either because (1) they descend partially from the Bantu-speaking populations who were caught up in the transatlantic slave trade (Brazilians, Puerto Ricans) or (2) because they "look Black" to American eyes (Dalits, Melanesians, Australian Aborigines). Finally, the descendants of Europeans who colonized the globe starting in the 15th century, especially of the 19th-century British Empire, lumped many non-European populations under the term "coloured," a concept that overlaps with the American definition but includes some (Turks. Irish) who most Americans consider White, and excludes others (European-looking biracials) who most Americans see as Black.
Rather than dealing with this definitional problem (just who is it that labels any specific population "Black" and why), the article adopts an intellectually indefensible grossly Eurocentric viewpoint. It is Eurocentric because its foundation assumption is that Europeans are White and everyone else is Black. In other words, it purports to explain why all non-Europeans are deep down the same sort of thing. It is grossly so because it includes every conceivable non-European population under its Eurocentric umbrella by using the most puerile rationalizations. Melanesians and Dalits with no shred of recent African ancestry are Black, despite their denial, because they "look Black" to an unspecified someone. Those Puerto Ricans and Brazilians who do not "look Black" to anyone are also Black, despite their denial, because they acknowledge partial African ancestry. And millions of White-looking African Americans with no detectable African genetic admixture are also Black because they self-identify thus. Only Eurocentric racialist Americans would even understand these arguments. Only singularly uninformed Eurocentric racialist Americans could advocate them.
If the goal of the article is to support the extreme Eurocentric racialist ideological POV common to both U.S. White supremacists and U.S. Black separatists, then it violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. If its goal is to inform everyone (even people outside the United States) about how, when, where, and why certain populations around the world have come to be called "Black," and by whom, I suggest that it must be trashed and re-written from scratch, from a consensus outline, using consensus definitions.
It is possible that some existing text could be salvaged, as PedanticPrick suggests. But I would like to nail down an outline before even considering this.
Here is a proposed list of topics for a new outline. They are in no particular order.
---Proposed Outline--- Goal: To inform the reader how, when, where, and why certain populations around the world have come to be called "Black," and by whom.
One, it is way to one sided. The Afrocentric perception has a right o be presented, but it has to be defined as an opinion, and Afroocentric. The other sides have to be given as well I will add links to other perceptions out of Africana as well. Finally, i took out a bunch of subtopics that deserve their own page. They should not be in a main page that generally defines a people. I tried to keep the Eurocentric beleifs in and contreast them to Mainstream history and science perceptions. But I had to edirt some claims that were given as fact instead of opinion. And no, the Aeta of the Philippines did not Embrace blackness, the Spanish imposed the term on them. They do not usually call themselves Negrito either. other Philipinos do.
The comment "Archeology has shown that indigenous populations with Aborigine like features were the first to migrate to the Americas and their features are still seen in certain populations of Native Americans like the Fuegueans of Chile, and the indigenous groups around Veracruz" needs clarification. For one, how has archeology shown this? Where are the sources? What are these features? Finally, Veracruz (in Mexico) was once the major port that received African slaves in New Spain (present-day Mexico and Central America), and their descendants are still around, which could partially explain the supposed "Aboriginal" features---I must admit though that this term needs to be clarified by the author. I assume that the author refers to medium and dark brown skin tones, among other traits. Kemet 10 December 2005.
Most of the changes that I just made were stylistic, spelling, and tightening the prose a bit. I also added a couple of sentences to correct a misunderstanding regarding the world-unique Nordic skin-tone adaptation. My main change was to remove the following:
Archeology has shown that indigenous populations with Aborigine-like features were the first to migrate to the Americas and their features are still seen in certain populations of Native Americans like the Fuegueans of Chile, and the indigenous groups around Veracruz.
It would be good to have a source for this, since "Aborigine-like features" seems hard to define. My concern is that, if it is defined in terms of craniofacial anthropometry, then it may be worth mentioning, but the DNA studies connecting Amerinds to Mongolians are a lot more persuasive. -- FrankWSweet 17:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I also removed, "and those that resemble our earliest relatives the closest in craniofacial measurements, Aborigines of Australia." The apparent similarity between Aborigines and H. erectus has been shot down. For one thing, Aborigines of 50kya looked like Indonesians. What you see is just a family resemblance that evolved over 50ky and spread over a continent. -- FrankWSweet 18:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
"A brief history of the concept of Blackness" is not going to work. I do not know what the agenda is here, but it seems evident that someone is more interested in making "blackness" as foriegn to the human experience as possible. Either that or the title of that section should be changed to "how Europeans came to describe darker skinned people". It's obvious that's what the section is describing.-- Zaphnathpaaneah 12:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The statement in the following section: "As Eurocentrism has weakened, many populations have sought to overcome the stigmas imposed by centuries of colonialism. One approach, Afrocentrism has sought to take the stigmas and spin them into a positive light."... this implies that there is an inherent natural stigma to being looked at as black. Look at the white people article, notice how parts of the article descibe who gets the priviledge of being included as white as if it's an inherent good quality to appropriate. While here, it seems already, people want to rewrite this article with the attitude of "who has the stigma of being labeled as black". No matter how we try to spin, or counter-spin this issue, the naked truth still comes out. Being black is being portrayed as a liability (stigma) and white is being portrayed as a virtue.
next "As with Eurocentrism before, some of the peoples categorized have embraced this foreign concept and others have not. We must clearly delineate that all those that call themselves Black do not subscribe to a Global Black sense of identity, and some just call themselves Black in a local ethnic sense." We don't know how foreign the concept is throughout history. The writer assumes that no one on earth looked at themselves as "black". Amazing. The issue of a global black sense of identity is moot because most people throughout the world did not have a global concept. Mostly regional. Jewish people for example, after being seperated in antiquity became unaware of the existence of other Jewish people throughout the world. That statement that "just call themselves black in a local ethnic sense." does little more than try to "reassure" the unfamiliar reader that "don't worry, those groyups in Asia didn't really think they were black." Let's stop that kind of attitude. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 12:44, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
With all this commentary about Eurocentrism in the Black People article, I find it amazing that the word is not used anywhere in the white people article. It is certainly non-neutral POV to characterize... no categorize... no compartmentalize blackness as not much more than a Eurocentric invention. Over the next couple of weeks I am going to have various readers of different backgrounds read this article and I am going to ask these questions.
I am going to be talking to people from India, Philippines, the Middle East and various other places. AFter that I will post some of their anonymous responses in here and where appropriate i WILL be making edits. I can already see some of the changes are going into a rediculous realm, but thats ok. I want the people I question to see this and they will be able to point out these things. We aren't going to have 'they are called black but' every other sentance in the article. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 13:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Finally, it seems that the current writer is trying to define blackness solely within a concept of "Eurocentrism" and "Afrocentrism". Not to sound offensive, but this view is ignorant of the way black people view themeslves. It is irrational to think that darker skinned people did not view themselves as "dark skinned" before EUropeans arrived to "dictate" this obvious fact to them. The fact that Europeans imposed their own latin based words on them "negro, negrito, etc" has nothing to do with the fact that an Aeta filipino can see for him or herself that their skin is dark brown. So I'm sure when they saw the European, or Chinese, they were aware of how "light" or "white" skinned they were in relation to themselves. So the idea that "blackness" is a Eurocentric concept is misguided. One very good example is that of the man named "York" who traveled with Lewis and Clark. He was accepted and idealized by some of the Native American because of his black skin, and curly hair. This was due to their cultural understanding of blackskin as a form of strength and virtue and certainly not a stigma. That indicates that the Native Americans had a clear concept of blackness that was not foreign to them or imposed on them by Europeans. As far as Asia goes, blackness has not been invariably created by Eurocentrism. I think you guys want to take another look at that and just take those kind of statements out. Hinduism, describing the black caste was not a Eurocentric religion. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 13:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Yea you guys shortened the article greatly and that would be good except you totally beat the black out of the article. The bible "supposedly" describes people as black "according to centrists"? What the heck is that??? The bible describes black people. Period. No additivees or preservatives. "kushimm" in hebrew means "black" and it means "beautiful". Cut and dry. See, all this "supposedly" and "according to centrists" stuff, thats the kind of manipulation I do not find acceptable in here, cut it out! -- Zaphnathpaaneah 13:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Yea it really looks like now the writers wants the reader to view blackness as nothing more than a liability and stigma from Euocentricism. Now I suppose these contributors, being a part of this experience have a good understanding of it. After all, we are using references and resources strictly from Europeans or... are we going to actually do some real insight into this article? And if you don't like my attitude, thats fine. Imagine if I went into the White People article and totally rewrote it as nothing more than a Eurocentric tool to alienate and control people of color (as that's how the term white seemed to be overwhelmingly used... in contrast to the "others" who do not have the rights and "virtues" of Euroepean white identity). Shall we be consistent and revolutionalize the White people article? Ignoring all of the variation and subtleties within it? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 13:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The comment "Archeology has shown that indigenous populations with Aborigine like features were the first to migrate to the Americas and their features are still seen in certain populations of Native Americans like the Fueguians of Chile, and the indigenous groups around Veracruz" needs clarification. For one, how has archeology shown this? Where are the sources? What are these features?
http://www.andaman.org/book/chapter53/luzia/luzia.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/430944.stm
Also read ‘Luzia is not Alone’ by Walter Neves. Finally consider this picture of a Yamana native of Tierra del Fuego http://www.limbos.org/sur/yama/yaman11.jpg
Finally, Veracruz (in Mexico) was once the major port that received African slaves in New Spain (present-day Mexico and Central America), and their descendants are still around, which could partially explain the supposed "Aboriginal" features---I must admit though that this term needs to be clarified by the author. I assume that the author refers to medium and dark brown skin tones, among other traits.
The Natives around the Veracruz area, not the admixed population of Afro-Indigenous people in the proximity I was referring to are those mentioned in this article: http://www.thehallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=73
"A brief history of the concept of Blackness" is not going to work. I do not know what the agenda is here, but it seems evident that someone is more interested in making "blackness" as foreign to the human experience as possible.
Blackness along with Whiteness are historically modern concepts. Considering the span of human history, they are pretty foreign. Similar concepts of labeling have occured before, aethiops, melano-gaetulians, etc. But these were more descriptive terms than a belief that all dark skinned people were a race and all light skinned Europeans were another. It was a Eurocentric concept.
First of all, I am not going to respond to every itemized response. i already indicated that to a previous poster. If you want to refute everything I say as a matter of procedure, do it as one response and then I can address them. Also, it's very unwieldly to respond in this manner, especially since a sizeable portion of the items are incorrectly formatted (spaces in the front i believe)... and yet again, everytime I post, Wikipedia has server problems, so I will pick and choose with the itemizations, because it becomes apparent at that point that the goal is not for you to learn or to understand, but to merely argue and attempt to bog the whole process down in endless debate. So that being said, first of all, every "race" in the world, and Latinos, Asians, Africans, and Pacific Islanders and probably a host of other terms and concepts are also historically modern. That is irrelevant. That does not minimize the significance to THOSE people. This article is not about trying to prove how useless or irrelevant the concept of blackness is in the opinions of non-black individuals. That is not our job here. You seem preoccupied with that. And I will venture an opinion. What is your goal? To have the readers walk away with the notion that blackness is not really about anything, because of "reasons" you feel trump the experiences the people feel? I have told you that this article is not about attributing a "racial" (whether genetic or what) label to blackness. From my perspective it seems you are hell bent on creating an impression that the experiences of darker skinned people (who at various times have been called or call themselves as Black) are irrelevant. It also seems to me that you want to navigate the definition of blackness as far as possible away from humanity. It's not going to work. In history there have been black people, currently there are black people, and as much as it may annoy you, there is a worldwide black consciousness that has been gaining momentum since at least the early 1960s. So I will go ahead and be picky and answer what i feel is convenient for me to answer among the long list of items below, because I am really tired of repeating myself and getting responses that try to bypass the obvious. The name of the article is "BLACK PEOPLE" not "I don't like the concept of black people. let me explain why it shouldn't be used anymore"
Either that or the title of that section should be changed to "how Europeans came to describe darker skinned people". It's obvious that's what the section is describing.—
That would work as well.
The statement in the following section: "As Eurocentrism has weakened, many populations have sought to overcome the stigmas imposed by centuries of colonialism. One approach, Afrocentrism has sought to take the stigmas and spin them into a positive light."... this implies that there is an inherent natural stigma to being looked at as black.
Incorrect. There is no inherent stigma to being dark-skinned, but historically the concept of black did carry a negative stigma. It is only with time that ethnicities that adopted this name have been changing that imposed stigma.
Look at the white people article, notice how parts of the article describe who gets the privilege of being included as white as if it's an inherent good quality to appropriate.
I haven’t looked at the White people article yet. But it is true that Colonialism imposed the White and Black paradigms, so they would make themselves look better.
Being black is being portrayed as a liability (stigma) and white is being portrayed as a virtue.
Incorrect. We are just pointing out how these terms were used historically. Blackness as an identity per se has no negative or positive connotations different than any other ethnicity.
We don't know how foreign the concept is throughout history. The writer assumes that no one on earth looked at themselves as "black". Amazing.
No historical records indicate such thing. Dark skinned yes. Members of a Black race, not in any written historical records.
I gave examples and you refute them... lol "Aethoipid, Kushite..."? This is the classical Eurocentric debate. You say one thing, i refute it with examples. You try to qualify the examples, then later on rely on short term memory loss... This discussion is absurd now.
The issue of a global black sense of identity is moot because most people throughout the world did not have a global concept. Mostly regional.
And with the advent of modern technology, these people are aware of other black communities, but that does not mean they identify with them as a global group.
Jewish people for example, after being separated in antiquity became unaware of the existence of other Jewish people throughout the world. That statement that "just call themselves black in a local ethnic sense." does little more than try to "reassure" the unfamiliar reader that "don't worry, those groups in Asia didn't really think they were black." Let's stop that kind of attitude. –
Jewish people never questioned others that showed different features but similar practices. That is obvious in their embrace of the Beta Israel among others. That is because their claim is ethno-cultural, not just a phenotype/race concept
On race: http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001078/
With all this commentary about Eurocentrism in the Black People article, I find it amazing that the word is not used anywhere in the white people article. It is certainly non-neutral POV to characterize... no categorize... no compartmentalize blackness as not much more than a Eurocentric invention.
Like I said, I have not touched the White people article yet. The point of view is neutral. What is said in other articles is irrelevant as I am working on editing this one right now not the other one.
Over the next couple of weeks I am going to have various readers of different backgrounds read this article and I am going to ask these questions.
My opinion on your questions as follows.
Which is very true. Partly because so much space has been used in trying to claim all people in the world Black instead of focusing on those people who auto describe themselves as Black.
Leading Question. Just ask them what they think and what is missing as far as describing THEM, not who else they think also is black.
Leading question again. Let them tell you their feelings without you trying to suggest possible negativity. I am going to be talking to people from India, Philippines, the Middle East and various other places. After that I will post some of their anonymous responses in here and where appropriate I WILL be making edits. We will be waiting for their comments and we will also ask people from these areas (I already have) what they think, and edit your edits if necessary.
I can already see some of the changes are going into a rediculous realm, but thats ok. I want the people I question to see this and they will be able to point out these things. We aren't going to have 'they are called black but' every other sentance in the article
It’s quite simple, either we only allow those who auto define themselves as Black to write of their experience in THEIR region and not try to claim other people as Black without a true confirmation that those people consider themselves Black, or we show that Afrocentric beliefs do exist, but that they are but one trend of thought, and not one supported by most Anthropologists, geneticists, linguists, etc.
Finally, it seems that the current writer is trying to define blackness solely within a concept of "Eurocentrism" and "Afrocentrism". Not to sound offensive, but this view is ignorant of the way black people view themselves.
I am not trying to define people within the Eurocentric and Afrocentric paradigms. But those were the parameters imposed before I got here, so I kept those claims in, but made sure the reader knew where those beliefs were coming from.
It is irrational to think that darker skinned people did not view themselves as "dark skinned" before Europeans arrived to "dictate" this obvious fact to them.
Black is not dark-skinned, and all peoples claimed as Black are not even dark-skinned.
The fact that Europeans imposed their own Latin based words on them "negro, negrito, etc" has nothing to do with the fact that an Aeta filipino can see for him or herself that their skin is dark brown.
Sure they can. And that does not mean they saw themselves As Black, Little Black or lost African tribes.
So I'm sure when they saw the European, or Chinese, they were aware of how "light" or "white" skinned they were in relation to themselves. So the idea that "blackness" is a Eurocentric concept is misguided.
Strawman. The first Malaysians were brown skinned themselves. Degree of shade may have not been as differentiating as phenotypes such as hair, eye shape, nose shape etc.
One very good example is that of the man named "York" who traveled with Lewis and Clark. He was accepted and idealized by some of the Native American because of his black skin, and curly hair. This was due to their cultural understanding of blackskin as a form of strength and virtue and certainly not a stigma. Afrocentric mythology. Africans meshed in with Indigenous cultures like Europeans did. Some were admired for their looks others weren’t. Only Eurocentric and Afrocentric claims later tried to claim this as evidence of earlier contact.
Hinduism, describing the black caste was not a Eurocentric religion. –
Nor do I claim racism is unique to Europeans, but they were the ones who expanded it to a global level. And Aryan impositions are still impositions. Furthermore I’m not sure that there was a claim that the Dravidians were a black people, but there was discrimination and their dark skin was used for identification. Could you list the Bhagavad- Gita or Vedas quotes pertinent?
The bible "supposedly" describes people as black "according to centrists"? What the heck is that??? The bible describes black people. Period. No additivees or preservatives. "kushimm" in hebrew means "black" and it means "beautiful". Cut and dry.
Chuwm or shachor meant black in Hebrew. Chuwm also mean black ones. Shachar meant turns black. Beautiful in Hebrew was hadar, yaphah, shepherd, Cush is borrowed from the time of Egypt to refer to Ethiopians, Cushites. You don’t see it used except in that context as referring to the people of the Ethiopian area. The Bible refers to that one group, not all people of the bible as Cushites. If they were being called the Black ones, Why not use a common usage Hebrew word and instead adopt the native word Cush used by the Cushites themselves?
That's silly. Midian is not in the Ethiopian area, yet Moses was married to Tzipporah, the Kushite. (Moses only had one wife, not two.)
Imagine if I went into the White People article and totally rewrote it as nothing more than a Eurocentric tool to alienate and control people of color (as that's how the term white seemed to be overwhelmingly used... in contrast to the "others" who do not have the rights and "virtues" of Euroepean white identity). Shall we be consistent and revolutionalize the White people article?
But of course. I am all for it.
We want to be consistent. -- 208.254.174.148 04:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
Lets see what happens... posting now -- 208.254.174.148 05:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Now here is the deal. I posted the article (and changed solely the terms Black to White where required, and the descriptions obviously where it applied). I made about four changes and about 96% of the section is letter by letter identical. I demand that you all observe consistency and for the next few days, whatever your philosophical point of view you pose HERE, post it THERE and whatever reasons you have to maintain the strength of your position HERE (in that section), use it THERE as well. Do not have me come back here next week and see that the section has been removed or grossly modified in the White people article, but remain unaltered in the Black people article. Since the section applies to both, there should be ABSOLUTELY NO DISCREPANCIES. i SHOULD NOT SEE in the white people discussion, a compromise that allows the white people article to be "preserved" because I will make a prediction. I predict that other writers of the White people article will find the prominence (at the near top of the article) to be inappropriate, the description to be overly heavy handed, and the logic to be "out of step with the experiences and general consensus that white people have today". (If I am wrong, I am fine with that as well, as I will use either stance to my advantage.). What I will not accept is somehow there is "good reason" to omit that section from the White people article, but to have it remain in the Black people article. But I seriously do not expect the writers of the white people article to allow that section to remain. We will see. Believe it or not this is part of my own research. It seems that non-blacks have a vested interest in seeing how black people perceive themselves and the world, and they want to have a hand in controlling it. It's similar to a white person having issue with a black person marrying an asian or east indian. I really want you guys to do your worst, you know, try to make 'blackness' as meaningless and irrelevant as you can. Use your best "logic" to steer the reader into viewing blackness as a concept that bears little value. Because honestly, anyone reading this will see it that way. It's almost like the article is saying that black people should disband and renounce their identity.... certainly the "non-African" people should avoid it like the plague! -- 208.254.174.148 05:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
Added paragraph to clarify that in order to be accepted as White in the Eurocentric/Afrocentric view, one must be of mostly European ancestry AND "look White" AND self-identify as White. But to be accepted as Black in the Eurocentric/Afrocentric view, one must be of some African ancestry OR "look Black" OR self-identify as Black. A Venn diagram might help to get the point across. -- FrankWSweet 15:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I do not think we should be naive and pretend that the only black people in the world are the "sub saharans". A Venn diagram still requires that the scope of the three source identities be agreed upon. Since some will put the Ancient Egyptians in the "Caucasian" category, or the "Aeta" in as the Sinoid category, it's still not going to show an accurate group. The problem is none of the Wikipedia contributors can accept or at least seriously consider that the Southern Eurasian supergroup is a predominantly contigious historical group. In addition, it's really disingenious to make a disclaimer for every non-Equatorial African group that is or has been identified as black. Now we have the Khoi being used as an example of a NON black group! -- 208.254.174.148 08:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
This is Zaph. I am making sure to begin my editing (as promised) in a way that will minimize much POV response. I must admit the article is better than I expected, although there is certainly too much effort to disclaim blackness in Asia. This seems to require a great amount of discussion to refute.
I will deal with the easiest issues first and we will work our way up.
DNA - I do not agree with the people who classify who is or who is not black, based on DNA. Why? because the DNA markers that are used are not the markers that determine phenotype. If it cannot be concluded that the chosen DNA markers are concurrent with phenotype, then its impossible to determine if the progenators were originally "black" or not. They may be good INDICATORS, but it seems that we assume that the "region" of origin of these progenators must be the indicator of their original race. For example, one could assume that the DNA indicator of a particular blood type, came from a mutation or progenator who originally looked like a "black" person, or a "white" person.
Out of Africa vs lightskinned KhoiSan - Apparently someone is presenting the notion that the original inhabitents of Africa are middle complexioned Khoisan. Khoi people of South Africa are also dark skinned wooly haired people, and despite being different in appearance from other Africans. I do not understand why as a habit, people see a group of people who range in complexion or phenotype, and they only recognize those who most closely resemble Europeans as "the legitimate" variety. This once again, reinforces a very narrow stereotype of what is considered "black".
This is one of the root cause of the distortion of blackness in this article, and needs to be addressed. I do not believe that Khoi are "not Black". And again, the concept of excluding the more "African" Khoi as admixture, while keeping the furthermost lightskinned khoi as "legitimate" is not an objective way to discuss this issue. -- 208.254.174.148 06:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC) - Zaph. (once again unable to maintain his login due to server issues!!!)
I believe a big problem with this is that we may have overlooked something. Earlier in the year, we discussed the problem of capitalizing "black" when referring to the group. IT seems that many people (non black especially) do not see blackness as anything more than a literal skin color. While many Black people see blackness as a cultural identity similar to being "arab" or "kurdish" or "Jewish". I hear a lot of disclaimer regarding black Asians which I think is not accurate. There are black asians, thats just how it is. Their skin is dark and this isn't about them being "jet black" or not. If a medium toned Italian is seriously considered to be white, then it's absurd to exclude medium toned asians from being black. In fact, the question arises, why would or should medium-toned people outside of Equatorial Africa be viewed as white anyway? -- 208.254.174.148 08:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I think what we need to so is to understand the difference between identifying somoene as a black person (someone with black skin), and a Black person (someone who self identifies as black regardless of their skin color). At this point, some may disagree, but this is the part where those who disagree should, and need to actually talk to black people and find out. You should not unilaterally dictate what Black identity should and should not be. I have grown up in a Black family very conscious of Black identity as something that transcends skin color. And in fact, because of that I have always viewed Black people as being much more diverse and tolerant culturally than whites. I know that there are Asians who do not view blackness with any subliminal stigma and who proudly consider themselves to be black (not hip-hop). Now the argument against this is to me absurd and disrespectful. It's absurd to discourage the kind of inclusiveness in the Black identity just because it started out as a "byproduct" of white exclusion and racism. It's disrespectful to continue to encourage a blind parallel to white identity, by discouraging people of lighter complexions from self identifying as black. We are entering an age where Eurocentricisty is expanding to identify various unrelated people as "white" or "Caucasoid". These various people do not see in their identity anything white, other than an attempt to gain economic mobility in the West, and a naive expectation of gaining more respect from Indo-European Americans because of it. -- 208.254.174.148 08:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Pedantic. I have NEVER complained about white people excluding everyone who is not white. I pointed it out as a matter of a hypocritical notion of "equality". And you know, after the whole DeeCeeVoice RFC mess, i can honestly say, that kind of commentary (although it may be light hearted) would probably activate her... What I do not like, when expanding whiteness to "include" everyone, is that it is inclusive only in areas where Black people are involved. Its only inclusive as a political counter weight to the "core white sensibilities" whether it's a perceived statistical annhilation over time, or a feared political shift in people of color. Whiteness is a divide and conquer tactic in the Middle East, the USA, and elsewhere. When Jews became so successful they became "White". When arabs became a strong political force in the world, they also became white. Italians, Greeks, etc... all got added in when they could no longer be kept out of the economic pie. Its a trade off. Whiteness is given as a social perk, and you are supposed to then seperate yourself in some fundamental way from the remaining non whites, especially black people. Whiteness now includes Egyptians so that Ancient Egypt is no longer academically viewed as a Black civilization. It now includes East Indians so all of the black east indians are erased from statistical existence. It will soon include Latinos as to erase the Black brazilians and caribbean islanders... Whiteness is a social order, not some kind of optional group to be a part of. Whiteness was used as a social order in the Rwanda massacre. The "whiter" Tutsi were supported by the British and French to oversee the counties and they oppressed at times the "blacker" Hutu. The Hutu then over reacted and when their president died, went nuts. It's a dysfunctional social order as far as I am concerned. Slavs and now central Asians are going to be added in. Why not drop the whole "white" thing all together. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:42, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Addressing the Black experience in Asia, it's not sufficient to rely on "Africa" as the litmus. I do not think anyone in here is really aware of how a black asian sees the world. I do not see the white identity beind disconstructed in such a irreverent way, even though whiteness is more of a social order and does not seriously reflect an ethnic identity. I cannot conceive of a White cultural or social identity that exists as more than a social construct to reinforce a sense of superiority and seperation, especially from Black people. For many, white identity is synonymous with and considered to be a means to economic prosperity. And since this identity is excluded from African Americans and other Black people who openly identify themselves as such, it's important to respect the self-identity of those Black people in Asia, Latin America, and elsewhere, even if they are not technically black. Although I believe this angle is not cleared up yet (Black is still strongly African in it's foundation), the self-identity should not be diluted with empathsis on a European or Eurocentric origin. -- 208.254.174.148 08:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The problem is the copyright violations. It seems I cannot post a single thing from another website. I have to call every person that owns the website and I am not going to be doing all that. I would rather link to other sites with citation, but that also has been a problem! Explain, if i can link to Melanesian websites that clearly describe themselves as black, is there any reason it would be rejecetd? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe a big problem with this is that we may have overlooked something. Earlier in the year, we discussed the problem of capitalizing "black" when referring to the group. IT seems that many people (non black especially) do not see blackness as anything more than a literal skin color. While many Black people see blackness as a cultural identity similar to being "arab" or "kurdish" or "Jewish". I hear a lot of disclaimer regarding black Asians which I think is not accurate. There are black asians, thats just how it is.
Sources of Asians by those same Asians claiming they identify as Black please. http://www.dalitstan.org/store/bkrev/dal_tbu.html (notice the original name of the book!) http://www.andaman.org/book/chapter8/text8.htm - Andamanese people (the island people just EAST of India.) http://www.pacificaids.org/grafix/vanuatu-gang_big.gif - People in Vanatu http://community-2.webtv.net/BARNUBIANEMPIRE/BLACKPEOPLEBLACK/page5.html
I am giving a physical description, not a quote from some group leader claiming to be black. You won't find that anywhere, not in Africa, nor Asia predating the colonization period. So that's a moot point. And I will not reply to nested itemized replies after this.
Their skin is dark and this isn't about them being "jet black" or not. If a medium toned Italian is seriously considered to be white, then it's absurd to exclude medium toned asians from being black. In fact, the question arises, why would or should medium-toned people outside of Equatorial Africa be viewed as white anyway? -- 208.254.174.148 08:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Again you miss the point. Many people do not identify as Black or White. To categorize them as either without their belief in such is patronizing.
Well then the White People article needs to totally recreate itself. There were no such thing as white people prior to 1620. Whiteness is a social order, Blackness was another social order established by those who considered themselves White, however, the stigma of being black is slowly decaying and more and more people.
I think what we need to so is to understand the difference between identifying somoene as a black person (someone with black skin), and a Black person (someone who self identifies as black regardless of their skin color). At this point, some may disagree, but this is the part where those who disagree should, and need to actually talk to black people and find out. You should not unilaterally dictate what Black identity should and should not be.
Growing up in a Black family does not make you an expert on how all dark skinned people in the world identify, sorry.
Oh, I do not rely on my own experiences. You see the internet is the place where this information is so readily available. Then you go to the library and find these references. Then you communicate with people in those areas, then you ask them how they view themselves. Usually they see on one hand that they are "not black like the African" but on the other "yes, black, we are different from the white, or the chinese person". When people associate black with purely being African, you will always get a rejection (because they are not in Africa!), but when you preclude "african-ness" they have little problem calling themselves Black.
The problem is the copyright violations. It seems I cannot post a single thing from another website. I have to call every person that owns the website and I am not going to be doing all that. I would rather link to other sites with citation, but that also has been a problem! Explain, if i can link to Melanesian websites that clearly describe themselves as black, is there any reason it would be rejecetd? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
You can always post links. That is an excuse.
However, no known Roman references to this has been found, and in addition, the Berber activity in Africa never reached to the coastal areas, where the portuguese and spanish would have acquired slaves. Ancient Romans thought that the part of the river near Timbuktu was part of the Nile River, a belief also held by Ibn Battuta, while early 17th-century European explorers thought that it flowed west and joined the Senegal River. The true course was probably known to many locals, but Westerners only established it in the late 19th century.
The Berbers covered huge regions of the north coast of Africa and interacted with the Romans way before Spanish or Portuguese. Many Arabs (Not Romans) indeed beleived it was possibly the same River, but did not change the use of two different names.
False, the river did not reach that far north. The burden of proof now lies on you. Where is this evidence?
Dravidian and Tamil people of India also may consider themselves black, however, there is no statistical insight into how relevant skin color has affected their self-identity.
Please post sources for this claim before posting it. If you can show it, i won't delete it. The source has to be of Tamils or Dravidians.
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/dravidian.html
have a nice day. -- 208.254.174.148 04:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I didn't have to do as much editing as I expected. Seems like somebody got the message. I definitely want to give you kudos for keeping your word, and as I expected, "The Epistemological Challenge" kept identical in the White and Black people article created a problem in the White People article, and I figured that the status-quo wouldn't accept it. Great job. Don't let social order dictate what our ethnic identity should or should not be.-- 208.254.174.148 04:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Since writing "The Epistemological Challenge" I have kept hands off of this article because others were cleaning it up. But I am becoming increasingly impatient and skeptical on one issue. It is the issue of non-Africans (mainly in Asia, evidently) voluntarily self-identifying as Black, "based on their own ethnic identity and self awareness," as the intro puts it.
One individual here insists upon injecting such a claim into the article and yet has refused to provide any shred of evidence for it. Until observing the last few exchanges, I had no opinion on the point. If some Tamils or Dalits or whoever wish to consider themselves "Black" in some ethno-political sense unrelated to genetics, then they have my blessing and more power to them. But the problem is that no evidence has yet been presented of such a self-identity among non-African populations, despite repeated pleas for such evidence from several contributors.
That Eurocentrists/Afrocentrists impose the label upon descendants of the African Diaspora is, in my opinion, sufficiently demonstrated to merit inclusion in the article. That Eurocentrists/Afrocentrists also impose the label upon anyone who "looks black" to them has also been sufficiently demontrated to merit inclusion. But that there are people out there who neither "look black" to Eurocentrists/Afrocentrists, nor descend from the African Diaspora, and yet consider themselves Black in some ethno-political sense is looking more and more like one person's unsubstantiated opinion.
Unless someone finds and posts references to either a first-hand account of such self-identity (by a member of the group) or a peer-reviewed second-hand account (by a researcher) within one week from now, I shall remove the claim from the article. I realize that the article is a work in progress, and I shall be happy to re-insert the claim if evidence is ever found. Until then, I have become convinced that it more prudent to leave it out. -- Frank W Sweet 11:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, Jugbo, you have convinced me. Most of the newspaper stories you linked to show that White Australian journalists consider Aborigines to be "Black", not that the people themselves consider themselves to be Black. Still, if their subjects consistently disliked the term, I am sure that the reporters would have avoided it. Furthermore, Ridgeway and Walker clearly self-identify as you say. Let us add a paragraph or two about Australians. Would you like to start it, since you are clearly more knowlegable than I? Or shoud I take a crack at it, and then you edit/correct it?
Regarding the appearance of Australian Aborigines, we had a discussion of this, along with maps of hair color at [33]. The consensus seems to be that skin tone is the same low-latitude adaptation you see around the Old World (not in the Americas because they lost those genes when crossing Beringia). But the other distinctive features are simply the coincidence of extended family resemblances from the initial band.
By the way, do you know anything about New Zealand? Does anyone there call the Maoris "Black"? -- Frank W Sweet 12:23, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
71.29.143.224 removed the following sentence: "In other cases, as in Brazil, the name is synonymous with low social status." I wish he/she had posted here the reason for this removal. On the off-chance that the contributor felt that the sentence was not detailed enoigh, I have expanded it a bit and added a source. -- Frank W Sweet 18:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
It is difficult to determine outside of an African orientation, how much the concept of blackness is in relation to literal skin color, as opposed to an ethnic identity based on skin color. As European colonialism reinforced a negative stigma to black identity, it is difficult to clearly determine which groups Work in progress
African Populations also have sub populations that identify as Black since colonial times and also with the advent of Pan-Africanism.
In Niger-Congo populations, where the term was first imposed in the colonial period, the term black is used to refer to themselves by many, but less among tribal groups.
Nilo-Saharan populations and Cushitic populations have some populations that do identify as Black and others who don't.
Saeedi Southern Egyptians and modern Nubians may consider themselves to be Black, especially in contrast to Arabization.
Afro-Diasporic Cultures vary depending on the culture they live in.
In the Caribbean some Afro-Diasporic populations in the Caribbean have adopted the term black, but others feel this term refers to Afro-Americans and not to them.
The Afro-American population has fully embraced the term Black to refer to their ethnicity.
Afro-Latinos vary by country, and many call themselves negros as well.
In Australia, the Aborigines or Indigenous Australians also were imposed the term black by the English, and by and large, refer to themselves as Black as well.
In India, the Siddi are a Afro-Diasporic people that may have groups that have embraced the name of Black, but no literature yet to show it. The Sheedi from Pakistan openly affirm their African orientation yet we do not know if they embrace a 'Black' identity.
Andy removed this section because he sees it as an essay, unsubstantiated opinion, not a reference, and the result of original thought. All WP articles are essays. It is not opinion, but explains why the very subject of the article is under contention. It is not unsubstantiated but is based upon the philosophy of how we know what we know as best expressed by Karl Popper. It is far from original thought (actually, it is "original research" that is discouraged in WP, not "thought"). The section is an essential introduction, at least until this essay evolves into having a topic that is agreed-upon. The chronic ongoing problem with the essay is still that it cannot decide whether to explain Afrcentrist/Eurocentrist fantasies or to advocate them. This decision must be made before the article can progress. The "Epistemogical Challenge" section directs it towards the former. Since it is unclear that Andy has given any thought to this point, I ask Andy, in the future, to discuss such massive deletions here before making them. -- Frank W Sweet 11:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I have tried to reorganize the article as suggested by my above comment to Andy. My goal was to make the article dispassionately explain how the term is used and not advocate its "proper" use. To this end, I have include all of Salassin's work as well as the information recently collected by Jugbo. I encourage everyone to please find more examples of "Black" self-identity, especially outside of Africa and the New World. You will notice that I left out everything dealing with Afrocentrist/Eurocentrist thought. This is because they seemed peripheral to the core explanation. Other WP articles Afrocentrism, Afrocentricity, Black Nationalism, White Nationalism deal with these issues in more depth than we can in an article merely about how the term "Black (People)" is used. Please feel free to add back in anything that you think I should not have removed, but please also consider adding links to the other WP articles mentioned above. -- Frank W Sweet 17:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
On second thought, "implicitly" may be better. Here is the applicable regulation from Employer Information Report EEO-1 and Standard Form 100, Appendix § 4, Race/Ethnic Identification, 1 Empl. Prac. Guide (CCH) § 1881, (1981), 1625.:
White (not of Hispanic origin)—All persons having origin in any of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa, or the Middle East.
Black (not of Hispanic origin)—All persons having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.
Hispanic—All persons of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.
This regulation is routinely interpreted by enforcers, and consistently ruled by federal courts, as disallowing dual or mixed "racial" membership. But the text does not say this in so many words. Feel free to change the article to "implicitly." -- Frank W Sweet 13:14, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
We are talking about the idea that someone who is utterly White-looking (like Carol Channing, Peter Ustinov, John James Audubon, and the present Queen of England Elizabeth II) is considered Black in some intangible undetectable way due to a known trace of distant African ancestry.
Scholars who have tried and failed to find a similar belief outside the United States include: Gary B. Mills, The Forgotten People: Cane River’s Creoles of Color (Baton Rouge, 1977), 193; Carl N. Degler, Neither Black nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States (New York, 1971), 101; Joel Williamson, New People: Miscegenation and Mulattoes in the United States (New York, 1980), 2; James Baldwin, Nobody Knows My Name (New York, 1962), 19; F. James Davis, Who is Black?: One Nation's Definition (University Park PA: State University of Pennsylvania, 1991); Magnus Morner, Race Mixture in the History of Latin America (Boston: Little Brown, 1967); and Marvin Harris, Patterns of Race in the Americas (Westport CT: Greenwood, 1964).
I have put the phrase back as it was, to match one drop theory, African American and Passing. If Jmac800 can cite a source for his claim that such a notion is found elsewhere, especially in Mexico or the Caribbean, I shall be happy to remove the phrase. -- Frank W Sweet 04:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but isn't this rather strange:
Australian Aborigines — Australians consider Aborigines to be Black, despite their lack of connection to the African slave trade.
By this logic, I suppose those dark-skinned Africans who were taken as slaves were black, while their dark-skinned cousins who weren't are not black? Camillus talk 18:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
True. Your point being? -- Frank W Sweet 18:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this is "a semantic argument", but I still have problems with the sentence above, maybe I am taking it out of context, but I feel it should stand on its own merits. First, I have the problem I mentioned before, also I have a problem with the bit about "Australians consider ..."; it seems to me that many Aus Aborigines see themselves as Black too. I agree with the comment below under "OK this kind of went overboard" - there is too much here about how non-blacks (and particularly Europeans) see blacks, and not enough about how they see themselves. My point about the "connection to the African slave trade", is that this seems to be being used as some criteria as to whether someone is black, when as you say, many Africans had nothing to do with this trade, and they certainly see themselves as black, and many of them are actually quite proud of being black. Camillus (talk) 20:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to be able to copyedit this phrase, but I'm afraid I don't know what it means: "...four million African slaves were transported to plantations in the Indian Ocean" Now, I realize that, despite the comedy that a literal reading of this phrase inspires, these Africans were not actually sent to kelp or krill plantations at the bottom of the sea. But, I still don't know if I believe what the sentence is trying to say. Where are all the Africans in the countries that border the Indian Ocean? The rest of the sentence is just as bad from a literal perspective: "about eight million were shipped to the Mediterranean basin" Are we talking about Spain, Italy, or North Africa? And once again, where are all these africans today? "and about eleven million were carried to the New World" This one I actually believe, but "carried"? Who wrote this? Could he/she please clarify their intended meaning? Thank you. ThePedanticPrick 19:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
While I agree with a lot of the article and helped edit prior versions of it, I will give it a week before I do some editing, because comments like 'semi-voluntary' to describe the Black ethnicity in the USA, do not just describe the struggle between concepts of racialism vs ethnicity and one droppism in this country, but seem somehow to convey that most people are being held hostage in this ethnicity. At the present time this article acts like Blacks are only such because they have been imposed raciality and they have been brainwashed into accepting this moniquer. It totally obviates the fact that Ethnicities form from common experience and struggle and formation of new cultural identities within that struggle. There is a valid Black ethnicity, and that ethnicity which has many beautiful aspects to it is completely misrepresented here in this article.
I get no sense of the Afro-American rich experience here or that of Australian Aborigines or other Afro-Diasporic and Proto-Afro-Diasporic people who do refer to themselves proudly as Black, and more a huge pontification on why they really shouldn't identify as Black.
There are plenty of ethnic groups that developed their titles from derogatory terms imposed on them. You still have to validate their ethnic experience from that point on. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.145.161.179 ( talk • contribs) .
I COMPLETELY disagree.
I know the word "preto" is an offensive term for black in brazil, and I just read a few weeks ago about the intermediate color terms such as mulato, moreno, and I forget the rest. Can someone help? ThePedanticPrick 22:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
These "African by Nature" links [47] are biased and inflammatory and don't belong in the black people article. Namely, the site promotes the controversial school of Afrocentrism. This is enough to disqualify them from inclusion, but aside from this, the site also contains inaccuracies such as references to "African Madonnas" (rather than Black Madonnas) and to a negroid Egyptian civilization, which is anything but universally accepted as historical fact. The site also features an essay by Jacob H. Carruthers that uses a quote by David Walker that includes the phrase "..the white slave holders, our enemies by nature" [48]. What is alarming about this quote is its designation "enemies by nature". Even if the "enemies" are slave holders, it doesn't sound good and clearly expresses more than just antipathy toward slavery. Another quote, of Carruthers, declares that "the present campaign by the defenders of Western Civilization is designed to murder the voice of African Centeredness," thus concluding that those who seek to preserve Western culture and heritage are fundamentally oppositional to the interests of black people, engendering racial dissent and misunderstanding. In another article that rips the Santa Claus tradition of Christmas (on a puerile, racist theme, of course), the author claims that the "...Middle East...[is] basically a part of Africa," and therefore that Jesus was black [49]. These are just from the first link in their "Open Our Eyes" section of essays, but I think it's enough to give the reader an idea of the tone of the site. The glossary, under "White", claims that "Europeans and European-Americans have been taught to believe that the word 'white' gives them a divine right over brown skinned people" [50]. Such generalizations and assumptions are racist and naive and should not be linked to by an encyclopedia. This is Wikipedia, not Propagandapedia or Afrocentripedia, and links to this site aren't worth including. The external links section is fine without them. -- Jugbo 03:12, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is true that this is clearly a biased source, and should not be included as evidence or citation. However, I think it should be cited as examples of Afrocentrist philosophy. For example, say somewhere that despite the fact that Dravidians may resemble sub-Saharan Africans more than, say, Swiss do, they are no more African than them because both Swiss and Dravidian people decend from a migration out of Africa that went two different directions. Then state that Afrocentrists who consider Dravidians to be Black people cite that because physical appearance, or phenotype (as opposed to genotype, genetic characteristics) are what people USUALLY distinguish race by, the combination of a similar Dravidian phenotype with their experience of persecution and racial discrimination at the hands of other Indians establishes them as Black people. Obviously this is an unscientific and biased perspective, but I think including it as an example of Afrocentrist philosophy would contribute to the article. 69.254.201.64 18:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Precolonial concepts of Blackness exist. let us not try to give so much credit to Europeans for "inventing" blackness. In fact, the modern concept linked to the word predates the European idea. I will clarify this in the article. Oh yeah, one more thing. I'm back.-- Zaphnathpaaneah 03:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I do like how the article has been updated, although much of my contributions have been changed, the essential ideas I brought into the article are for the most part left intact. The "who looks black" section is most welcome. --
Zaphnathpaaneah
03:04, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
We need some citations, some clear citations, (not some uncited "citations") regarding the Romans naming the river after Berber tribal names. I have yet to find a map, or a testimony from a Roman general or traveler that shows any "Niger" naming from the Berber. In fact, the Niger river was not fully explored from it's southern Nigerian source to it's Senegalese outlet in the 19th century (long after the southern portion was named "Niger". In addition, the "river bend" Timbucktu portion where the Berbers would be most present and in contact with Romans, that portion was also not associated to the Nigerian Delta outlet until the 19th century by Europeans (Romans nor French nor British). So a continuity issue arises. How would the portion of the river (the Niger delta portion) be named after the Berber name in antiquity, if those who named it "Niger" did not know that it was connected to the berber portion until AFTER it was named "Niger" in the delta area. Finally, the "Berber" language is not clear.
In fact, the problem with the Berber origin is that it does not specifiy with "berber" language we are talking about. The Romans actually named the river Dasibari. And it is called similarily "Isa Ber" meaning "big river" in Songhay; (People who lived in the northern region (the Berber region) from the mideval period perhaps even earlier. Where did I get this information? Well, from the Niger River article in Wikipedia.
By the dawn of that century it had been established that the Niger originated somewhere in the Highlands of Guinea, not far from the Atlantic Coast. Explorers managed to follow the course of the river northeast through the lush tropical forests of Guinea to the land of Timbuktu. From here they found that the River wound around vast areas of savanna and the arid sand dunes of the southern Sahara. Geographers of the time speculated as to whether this was a tributary of the Nile or even if it was the Congo River.
After several attempts explorers were, in 1834, able to follow the river all the way to it’s outlet to the sea. After following the river for some 4,200 kilometers (2,600 miles) they discovered that the Niger enters the Atlantic Ocean a relatively mere 1,700 kilometers (1,000 miles) from it’s source. It was now possible to properly map the route of the River and, subsequently, open it to use by foreign merchants. From this point onwards the Niger began to take on a level of importance far exceeding it’s previous limited use. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 23:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
It's rare that something grabs my attention so much that I keep on reading it from start to finish. This discussion has touched on some very valid points and shows that we can't all live together and get on happily. How on Earth are we gonna react when the aliens land on earth if we can't even get along ourselves!? What would we do if the aliens were white and had three breasts with blonde hair and blue eyes? Or if they looked like a terrorist and only had one breast. On a serious note, with articles like this one can we be sure that the information on wikipedia is accurate and not biased towards the writer's (or writers') point of view. 23:38, 19 February 2006
The use of South Africa as an example of "African Diaspora" is paradoxical because South Africa is IN Africa. It would be like using Greece to describe "Hellenic diaspora" or "Russia" to describe "Slavic diaspora". Using South Africa in as an example of people "considered to be Black in the African diaspora" lends credence (however remote, however miniscule) to the notion that the original inhabitents were not characteristically Black Africans. In other words, the argument goes back to the notion that because the earliest inhabitents were of a dark brown (instead of jet black), shorter stature, they are not considered to be Black. If the contributor wants to debate whether or not Khoi, or San, or any other indigenous equatorial African is black, we should directly speak on that. - Zaphnathpaaneah.
I found this statement to be blatently POV:
" have adopted the rhetoric of the U.S. Black movement, including that of labeling themselves as Black. This self-identity has been encouraged and even funded by liberal U.S. organizations who believe that the first step in achieving social justice outside the United States is to impose a U.S.-like endogamous barrier between "oppressed" and "oppressor", so that no individual can claim to belong to both sides."
I changed the line: Some African Americans also have European and/or Native American ancestry as well to Many African Americans also have European and/or Native American ancestry as well because the vast majority of African Americans are of mixed racial ancestry. Current DNA samplings and tests have consistently shown that the average African American is racially mixed. Some is more "recent" than others, but few (if any) are of strictly pre-colonial, sub-Saharan ancestry. Skin tone is not a reliable indicator of one's "blackness"; you may find a large range of skin tones within one generation of African Americans with the same parents, hence Carol Channing's warnings from her mother as a young adult. Tiger Woods is a good modern day example - though it is often pointed out he has less than 50% African ancestry, his skin colour and phenotype is stronger than many people typically classified as exclusively African American/black.
Why are there no links/discussion to the informal caste system within the topic: U.S. society equates the label with African-American ethnicity? This caste system in the U.S. concerning blacks greatly shaped the views of both Americans and the world about what black means in America and how it has changed over the centuries, particularly the past 100 years. This caste system, though somewhat waning, still exists in black America, is not as formal and strict as places like India. Yet like India, it is applied unevenly depending on one's gender and wealth. Could there be a link to the topic and an expansion on the subject within that topic concerning U.S. perceptions?
A separate, but related topic is the history and concept of bi-racial or multi-racial identity in the U.S. Should there be a link to the topic? What I have read seems somewhat lacking when discussing U.S. attitudes concerning blacks. It glosses over the term bi-racial. A 50%-50% split concerning blacks is genetically impossible in the US, since the vast majority of African Americans are of mixed racial ancestry. If it means the offspring of two people externally identified as coming from two distinct racial groups, then what of the offspring of those children and can it be applied retroactively? Nothing in the article adequately addresses the identity of offspring of two bi-racial/multi-racial persons or of a bi-racial and a black person and how cultural biases can lead to logical fallacies concerning racial identity.
That's why many within the African American community consider the designation ephermeral and elitist, especially after the 1960's Civil Rights/Black Pride era. They took offence at those emphasizing their mixed racial heritage, etc., viewing them as abandoning their African American ethnicity out of sense of shame or a way of using their "otherness" to gain greater social acceptance and white privilege (e.g. Tiger Woods). Since both currently and historically this legal/ethnic identity is/was not allowed to pass down the generations unless those offspring also had children with someone of non-black racial ancestry, otherwise they would be considered black. Even this a relatively new phenomena from a legal viewpoint (e.g. 2000 U.S. Census). In the past, it was informally acknowledged by labeling such persons mulatto, quadroon, octoroon, vs. "Negro" but they were still considered part of the black community though with a higher social status by all. As the black community became more genetically mixed over the centuries, these terms fell out of use to be replaced by Colored or Negro, often used interchangeably to subtly acknowledge black America's racial diversity.
This is where those leading the current multi/bi-racial debate paint themselves into a logical corner. If first generation mixed persons want to identify themselves as bi-racial/mixed and the bulk of African Americans are of two or more racial groups, what makes them any different from the "average" black person? Differentiating themselves becomes meaningless if they want to use the accepted definition of black AND say "but I am of significant non-African stock, thus I'm different (i.e. better)." Everyone "black" in America can reasonably make the mixed-race claim, though they may lack to birth records to do so because of the slavery/miscegenation laws of the past.
For those who say it's both the racial and cultural identity that define them as mixed this also is a very weak argument. What of those who come from "recent" bi-racial joinings who were raised mostly/exclusively by the black parent, most likely in a traditional black community? Or white kids raised by blacks in a black community? Why can't they be considered black? What of black children raised in a traditional white community by white parents? What of blacks who consciously reject any traditional black cultural leanings? Can they consider themselves to be mixed? Indeed, what of the fluid exchange of cultures and genes in America in general? Since African Americans are both a racial and cultural amalgamation of African and European cultures and phenotypes, saying one person is "mixed" vs. black is pointless.
The strongest argument that can be made is that of non-black parents in a multi/bi-racial relationship who may resent their identity and cultural heritage being shunted to the side because of enduring racist attitudes in America. This is a very valid point and unfortunately often ignored. But more often than not, it is the children of these joinings who make the most of their non-black ancestry, not the parent(s). And they most often do it for the reasons mentioned above (white privilege and shame).
Removed sentence: "The same thing could be argued about African-Americans, given the ideological prevalence (at least among the "white" population, who possess the social and economic power to determine the meaning of such categories) of the one-drop theory." This sentence's only content, other than personal value judgment, is that US-Whites invented and/or support the one-drop rule. Overwhelming peer-reviewed evidence shows this to be incorrect. The U.S. Black community has supported and enforced the one-drop rule since 1840 and continues to do so today. U.S. society as a whole (Whites) supported it only between roughly 1910 and 1967. -- Frank W Sweet 15:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Corrected apparent vandalism: "Boards reflected local public opinion and often found it helpful to cooperate with those wanting to change from Black to Coloured, Coloured to White or White to Black, etc." In fact, there is no record of any South African school ever seeking a downgrade from White to Black. -- Frank W Sweet 15:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Who uses these terms? Why is this edit acceptable? Are these terms really contemporary enough to have right there in the beginning of the article??? - CobaltBlueTony 14:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
removed the phrase: "however the concept of Black people can be found as early as the 2nd Century BC". It needs citation. If it is suggesting that humans were unaware of skin-tone differences until the 2nd century BC, then it seems exceddingly unlikely, especially in view of findings by Kurzba, Tooby, and Cosmides described in the article. If the phrase is suggesting that an endogamous color line, caste system, or ethnic self-identity centered "Blackness" existed prior to the Reformation, then it flies in the face of all serious research yet conducted on the origins of the "race" notion. Either way, it is so unlikely as to demand strong peer-reviewed citation. -- Frank W Sweet 14:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Removed the following because it attributes motives to people, appararently based upon the author's mind-reading skills.
For different reasons, black and white Americans renounce the self-identity of Asians, Pacific Islanders, and others as black. For black Americans that renounce, this is due to an assumption that the label "black" is applicable only to Black Americans due to the association of brutality and racism with black perserverance. For white Americans, the identity of non-Africans as Black undermines a status-quo and can threaten the cultural and social projections white people have established throughout the world in the former colonies. In response, many (especially conservative) assume that extra-African blackness is a shallow or empty association to black Americans. Very few are aware of, or respect the sophisticated and very real intra-cultural relationships between black people of direct African ancestry and black people of other backgrounds.
The above may be restored if peer-reviewed citation can be found showing evidence of such simplistic and shallow motivations. -- Frank W Sweet 15:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Judgesurreal777 wrote: For this important topic, there needs to be more references.
I agree, and I accept part of the blame. When, last December, we began turning this article from a pean of Afrocentrism into an overview of the different (and often contradictory) meanings of the term, Salsassin agreed to do the grunt work of writing (he's good at that--he's a lawyer) and I agreed to do the citations and references (I am a historian and molecular anthropologist). He did his part, but I fear that I have fallen down on the job. My only excuse is that we have both been distracted by some very interesing discussions of recent findings in phylogeography. I hereby ask Salsassin (and anyone else for that matter) who is interested in this topic to please mark places in the text that could use references with the following template: {{fact}}. This will put " citation needed" into the text. I will then be happy to go through and replace the tags with peer-reviewed scholarly sources (tweaking the text as needed). -- Frank W Sweet 11:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Paragraph tweaks: (1) Replaced, "mistaken for" with, "were of overwhelmingly European genetic admixture like millions of so-called". (2) Deleted: "of strong sub-Saharan African appearance and by very fair-complected Blacks who adhere to the belief that their shared historical experiences make them a single people." Nothing wrong with it, but this seems like the wrong paragraph to get into motivations. Isn't there a better place to say this? If you really like it here, go ahead and put it back. it just seems out of place to me. (3) Added, "helped create in the 1830s North and" plus link. (4) Cut back claim that many forms now allow multiple choices. Census 2000 did this, but EEOC, Small Business Admin, the Judiciary, and all other federal agencies continue to insist on one-and-only-one box. A citation would be needed otherwise. -- Frank W Sweet 09:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Right, the section on South Africa is problematic. First of all, during Apartheid there weren't three racial categories - there were four: Black, White, Coloured, and Asian. Secondly, the tone of this section assumes that the South African experience of having distinct identities for black and coloured people is not only a throwback from apartheid, but that it is somehow inferior to the American experience of not having this distinction. Why should Coloured South Africans and Black South Africans be lumped together? Their cultures (and languages) are distinct (that's just historical fact. no point arguing over it) and secondly that sets White people as the benchmark against which all other groups are judged. There is more to being black or coloured than just being not-white. Joziboy25 April 2006, 21:47 (UTC)
Sorry if that came off as a bit of a rant! I think it was just the phrasing that gave me that impression. I've reworded a couple of sentences. Firstly, since you mention Khoisan I don't think the first sentence should be about general British ex-colonies since they're particular to southern Africa. Also, I didn't follow the sentence that African-Americans had trouble socialising with South African black people - presumably there was only a problem between coloured and black people? Anyways I've tried to make it sound more neutral. What do you think? Joziboy 25 April 2006, 22:38 (UTC)
Someone inserted some vandalism in front of a dozen references to the following journals: Human Biology, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, American Journal of Human Biology, American Journal of Human Genetics, Legal Medicine, Comptes Rendus Biologies, Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution, Tissue Antigens, European Journal of Medical Genetics. The vandalism suggested that these journals are "accepted by the Stormfront group, but decried as invalid and unscientific by geneticists Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza, and Neil Risch." This is incorrect. The world's leading and most highly respected molecular anthropology journals are not secretly supporting Stormfront. And none of the articles cited have ever been challenged by the men named above nor by anyone else in a peer-reviewed source. -- Frank W Sweet 21:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I was specifically referring to the Arnaiz-Villena study based on a single genetic marker, which has been decried as lacking scientific merit by Neil Risch, Alberto Piazza, and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza. By your ad-hominem characterisms and your dismissive tone it is clear that you are not interested in reaching a consensus or responding to valid criticism ; you just want to villify anyone who reproduces the scientific consensus on Arnaiz-Villena's erroneous studies as a "sock-puppet", "vandal", or whatever else is your particular insult of choice at the moment. Until you revise the article to also represent the devastating criticism made on Arnaiz-Villena's study, I'm afraid you are acting as nothing more than an ignorant fanatic in your contributions. Porfyrios 21:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
If there are other sources to that effect, cite them instead of the demolished Arnaiz-Villena claims. Until you do so, criticism of these claims by the leading scientists of the sector should remain in the article. And what makes you a fanatic is your tendency to respond to valid criticism with insults, not your apparent ignorance. Porfyrios 22:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Both the studies by Arnaiz-Villena used the same methodology, arrived to the same conclusion with regards to the existence of subsaharan DNA in the Greek population, and were beset by the same problem, which was their arbitrary reliance on a single genetic marker to reach conclusions. The conclusion which Sforza and Co decry as "extraordinary", "anomalous" and "contradictory to history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups" is one and the same in both studies. Porfyrios 22:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not unrelated at all. The same author used the same erroneous methodology that was criticized as being broken beyond repair, to the degree of completely lacking scientific merit in the publication that Human Immunology retracted. He used the same methodology in the Tissue Antigens study, reaching identical conclusions with those criticised by those leading geneticists as "extraordinary", "anomalous" and "contradictory to history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups". What more is there to say?
Why do you find it so hard to accept that this entry should include statements of the leading geneticists in the world, to the effect that claims about Greeks being "very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans" are "extraordinary", "anomalous" and "contradictory to history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups". Porfyrios 22:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with this study, but I don't see why it should be. Cite it along with the other relevant statements in the discussion. Porfyrios 23:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Only, I didn't. I guess you fancy your insinuations about a "vast Jewish conspiracy" suppressing genetic research with regards to Jewish and Palestinian relatedness as more credible, then? Porfyrios 23:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
And it was the leading scientists in the field who responded it should have been retracted, for no other reason than the fact it constituted shoddy research and lacked scientific merit. Guess who I choose to believe.
And another thing. Guess what that brilliant beacon of scientific ingenuity, Arnaiz-Villena, has been up to now... Apparently he is facing charges for embezzlement of funds at his department! I guess the Vast Jewish Conspiracy won't rest until the man is behind bars, eh? ( http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7339/695) Porfyrios 23:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_%28people%29#Conclusion Porfyrios 13:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The paragraphs on Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe in "Who is a descendant of the African Diaspora?" have attracted so much debate that they have bloated beyond usefulness to this article. In addition, the tangential debate over DNA studies has jeopardized the stability of this article. It took us over four months to stabilize this article (since December 2005) and its stability is still fragile. It does not need to be the hub of an apparently interminable debate on DNA admixture. Finally, the paragraphs are now common to two different articles ( White (people) and Black (people)). And so, unless anyone has a cogent objection I shall split off the paragraphs on Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. I shall replace these paragraphs in this article with a one-paragraph summary and a link to a separate new article titled Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. I shall copy all of the existing paragraphs, their references, and their "disputed" tags to the new article. I expect the ongoing DNA admixture debate to continue in the new article. I expect the disputants to stop hammering away at the present article, since there will be nothing here but the essential one-paragraph summary and a link. I will wait six hours from now before implementing this split-off. -- Frank W Sweet 17:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
"In places that imported relatively few slaves (like the Mascarene Islands or Argentina), few if any are considered Black today.[6]"
Contrary to popular opinion, Argentina imported a significant number of slaves before the transatlantic slave trade ended. For example, Blacks represented a whopping 25 percent of the Buenos Aires population in 1838 ( Graham: The Idea of Race in Latin America, 1870-1910). Moreover, historial records show that blacks or mulattoes comprised 30-49 percent of the Argentine population in 1800 (Andrews: Afro-Latin America, 1800-2000). The number of blacks in Argentina gradually declined as racism an xenophobia prompted the government to whitten the population through the massive importation of Europeans. As a result, blacks in Argentina were gradually reduced to an invisible minority and were pushed aside by newcomers.
The following is in reply to the anonymous paragraph above:
The problem is that when the settlers arrived the land was mostly owned by the natives some of which included
moors who had been trading goods and sailing to the Americas before the settlers arrived, also hundreds of years before the Mid-Atlantic slave trades. As many of the new settlers bought land they became part of this new government. As the government progressed, more settlers bought more land from the "Free White" until the communities began to remove the rights of priveleges those who are now considered Native American, Moors ("black", "white", southern, northern american natives), eventually the government grew to the point that it was taking or tricking land from individuals whom owned it. A common practice today. Later on the term Free White which originally had nothig to do with skin was a way to take land from darker skinned individuals. It was at this moment that the term white began being associated with color of skin and the term Negro was a widelely used term for the African looking natives and the Native Americans. Soldiers went off to fight in the Spanish American War only to return to their homes and realized the government took their land. White is really a social status that has been changed to fit a racial
meme.--
Gnosis
19:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Lol I never heard of genetic averaging and can't find anything scientifically related to it. As a person who is multiracial I find that offensive. Is genetic averaging another way of trying to instigate the one drop rule. Sorry but that's down the toilet. Besides how can someone half black and half white be only black? That is stupid just thinking realistically, you do realize they are half white too and have every right to be proud of that heritage too. World is changing...get with the program AA's.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Blasian123 ( talk • contribs)
Seriously...Thanks User:Blasian123
A lot of Blasian people I know don't consider themselves black because they say their North East Asian genes cancel out their black genes, HOWEVER they still consider people like Halle Berry black. The logic is that race fall along a continuum with black people at one extreme, North East Asians, at the other and Europeans in the middle. This continuum can be quantified by the age of the races. Since so many people are of mixed race, you're considered black if your overall genes are older (i.e. more African) than those of Europeans, and you're considered North East Asian if your overall genetic mix is younger than that of most Europeans. People who are a mix of black genes (which are oldest) and North East Asian genes (which are youngest)have the same overall genetic age as Europeans. This has been confirmed by modern genetic research which sometimes describes Europeans as a genetic hybrid because their DNA resemble blacks and North East Asians far more than the latter two groups resemble each other.
A common analogy is that if a tall person & a short person have a kid, the kid is neither tall or short but if an tall person and an average person have a kid, the kid will be tall. Similarly, if a black person and a North East Asian have a kid,the kid is neither black or North East Asian, but if a black person & a white person have kids, the kids will be black. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.4 ( talk • contribs)
While I am in no way endorsing the concept (I think it's ridiculous actually... genes don't cancel each other out). What I think the unsigned comment person is referring to with "genetic age" is this: recent genetic research has found that mankind originated in Africa (they knew this already from fossil remains, but genetic research found it with another method). The way this was worked out was that "indigenous/black Africans" (gotta be careful with labels! I am a White African and consider that no less African than black Africans) have more genetic diversity than any other group. This means that there has been a human gene pool in Africa for longer than in any other continent (since the more generations, the more genetic diversity). That doesn't mean African genes are 'older' - it just means Africa was the birthplace of mankind. Joziboy 16 May 2006, 12:35 (UTC)
For years people have defined black as having some arbitrary degree of sub-Saharan African ancestry. The problem with this definition is that all people have sub-Saharan African ancestors since the first modern humans were Black Africans (i.e. African Eve). Thus it's a lot less confusing when a black person is defined as someone who is closer to the original (thus oldest) human race. Now since close is a relative term, it's a matter of opinion and arbitrary cultural standards in deciding whether a mulattoo is close enough to be black but I think the point of genetic averaging is that while mulattos are closer to black people than white people are, a Blasian person is no more black than a white person is. This is because although Blasian have one black parent, their North East Asian parent is as genetically far removed from black as possible. Thus, on the genetic level they're no different from Europeans who've been called genetic hybrids because they share 65% of their genes with North East Asians, and 35% with pure black Africans.
Now I think the one drop rule is absurd, but one reason why it has remained such a potent force (i.e. mulatto Halle Berry named first black woman to win an Oscar) is the subjective impression (now confirmed by genetic studies)that the peoples of European ancestry are genetically neutral, so a drop of either black or North East Asian blood creates a disequilibrium, disrupting their genetic balance and pushing them to one or the other racial extreme. Thus while mulattos and are often considered black, and Eurasians are considered Asian, Blasians (which are an average of two extremes) are much less likely to be pigeon-holed into any one race.
And of course there are dark skinned people that are not black. Race should be defined by genetics not by superficial characteristics like skin color.
Because this page discusses racial perceptions, there should be discussion about the fascinating fact that society often defines mulattos like Halle Berry as black and yet defines Blasians like Tiger Woods as mixed race. Why should this be if both have a roughly equal degree of black ancestry? Also Eurasians are usually just considered Asian. Again there seems to be in society an implicit rule that defines mixed race people by their most EXTREME race, but since Blasians are a product of two opposite extremes, they can't be reduced to one race or the other.
In other words, when you mix Caucasian with either black or North East Asian, the black or Asian dominates, but when black & North East Asian are mixed with one another, both extremes are neutralized. It is very interesting that this historical cultural perception has now been confirmed by science which shows that Europeans truly are a neutral race, and just like Blasians, are a genetic intermediate, with just as many pure African genes as most Blasians. This was cited in the article.
I suppose this is a small thing comapred to the vitrolic responses the dicussion page is getting, but I have some issues with the section on the Latin origins of the term Negro as having come from the Niger river. Niger was a Latin cognomen at least as far back as the second century B.C. to refer to dark (Roman) individuals, at a time when Roman geographers would have had little notion of the Niger river and certainly of its Berber designation. Therefore, it seems unlikely that the Latin root began there, and seems more likely that the river was named after the already-existing term or even that they are unrelated.
To the Anonymous poster of this fact just above. I mentioned this several times, but some contributors have a prejudiced reasoning. I explained that the Romans named the river Dasibari (similar to the name given by some of the current BLACK groups in Niger and Mali). This WAS linked to the Niger River page, but someone took it off. The fact is, some contributors want the world to view blackness as nothing more than a mere concoction... an afterthought if you will of the White enlightened mindset. "Oh those people don't really HAVE a name, we just gave them one from our own boredom." These are the KIND of statements I hear. "Blackness doesn't really exist, it's a product of white supremacy" and the such. That's baloney. "Blackness" is a relational term to those who do not consider themselves Black, however the concept goes far beyond the "Latin" based societies. As we see, there are Black groups outside of Europe's tendrils, that had their own peculiar names, which means that the non-whites were also intelligent enough to see skin contrast and also shallow (or just human) enough to consider very dark skinned people to be black. It wasn't a "white" invention from some labratory of some Habsburg aristocrat or what not. -- 68.60.55.162 03:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
In addition, anyone interested in forcing the Niger River to be the origin of the Latin name of Black people. Edit the Niger River article first and resolve the dispute THERE before you try to use it here. -- 68.60.55.162 03:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC) (The controversial contributor)
This section was removed for it's blatently POV slant (this belongs here in the discussion, not out there in the article):
"The word “Black” (and even worst "black" lowercase) has no historical or cultural association. It does not fully articulate the history and geo-political reality of African people. Black as a political (or colloquial) term was fashioned as a reactionary concept in the 60's and 70's against White supremacy, but it was never meant as an epithet for African people, but moreover a transitory term to move a people away from Coloured and Negro. As a political term it was fiery and trendy but never was it an official racial classification of peoples who have a 120,000 year old history. Indians are from India , Chinese from China . There is no country called Blackia or Blackistan. Hence, the ancestry-nationality model is more respectful and accurate: African-American, African-British, African-Brazilian, and African-Caribbean.
The mass usage of “black” by people of African decent is poor justification for the flagrant usage of the word. Because if that argument is to hold-up it would be justified to start using the term Nigger again, due to the self-destructive resurgence of this word among African-American people."
I certainly, as a Black man, disagree with this silly interpretation of "Black". The word Black, first of all, is a non-politically correct term, and is unabashadly straight-forward in describing the people of which I am one. I am Black and also African-American, and I do not need to follow someone else's THEORY as to why the word (which is commonly used without reliance on Eurocentric ideals) should or should not be used. The word "black" has been used outside of a Eurocentric context for millenia, all over the world. And there is nothing wrong with the obvious fact that some people are "black". If we remove the Black element in African-American, it will obviously be over run with Afrikaaners and north African Arabs trying to usurp the word for exclusive use for themselves. After all THEY are African-American too. I find it DISRESPECTFUL to deny using the word Black to describe me, my heritage, and my ancestry. I am Black, no strings attached. Get over yourself! -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Black describes the fact that you were a slave and still think like a slave. An emotional slave attached to the chains of oppression. What is "black" about you? Are you from Blackia or Blackistan?? nothing in the above makes and academic sense, it is a personal statement rooted in false pride. Maybe people for emotional reasons wouldnt say "i am not black (Black)" but that has no bearing on if "black" is acceptable and still relevant. The issue of why they say this is out of emotional reasons. We are not intrested in what whites want to take, if we use it then it becomes ours, they can take the word because of people who dont want to be African so the Europeans (who have a lot of sense say " okay We are Africans" so 500 Years later we are left being "black" and not "African." Most African scholars stress the usage of African over black starting with Malcolm X and John Henrick CLarke, not to mention Kimani Nehusi.-- halaqah
Well considering that Black as a word has been used by dark skinned people to describe themselves since before biblical times, I find it hard to believe that the human capacity to see strong contrasts in skin color as a creation by European slave masters. The countries of Ethiopia (Greek for land of the Black skinned people), Sudan (Arabic for land of the Blacks), Niger/Nigeria (Latin for Black, not the river), Kemet (Egyptian for Black Land), "Kushite" (egyptian/Hebrew for Black people), etc... The word "black" in its own right has no negative connotation. Now the continent of Africa was coined by Romans and likley a man named Africanus whateverus. It did not even refer to the continent, but a region of the Barbary coast near Carthage. Everyone in the world known to have dark skin did not originate culturally from Africa (although all humans ancestrally did). Human diversity should not be thrown out the window whenever the individuals have dark skin, that's disrespectful. But you know what is so funny and ironic, I used to make the same argument long ago. I remember telling people that we don't come from "Blackalia and Blackistan"... so I certainly see where you are coming from. But I learned later that dark skinned people share a common human social experience, and that also is related to our struggle. If Black is not the word, then African certainly isn't. Nubian? I don't think so (Nebu is Egyptian for "people of the gold" referring to the fact that the Nubians lived near gold mines). Equatorial is the only word I can come up with, especially considering how ignorant the phrase "Sub-Saharan African" is. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 06:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Once again, we have another attempt to make Blackness a bad thing. Some people want Africans to just reject who they are and be "assimilated". Nope. 100 years from now there will be Black people everywhere, a worldwide majority. You won't diffuse that majority by reprogramming our minds now ahead of time to redefine ourselves as to further divide and conquer. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Pedantic, the best way to show objectivity is to work on your own area before critisizing the work done by others. I do not see any comments made by you in the white article discussion imploring Whites to call themselves "pink" or "pasty". That lack of assertiveness will always make your reasoning here seem slightly less than honorable. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 06:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
There's one thing I don't understand: when white people exclude everyone who's not white, you complain, and then when we allegedly start expanding the definition of white to include everyone, you complain too. There's just no pleasing you, is there? ThePedanticPrick 12:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I complain Pedantic because white people do these things to suit their own ends at the cost of other people. Expanding white to "include" everyone is not to really include anything, but to bolster the numbers of the "inner" white minority. IN essence my non-white heritage is usurped by whites to reaffirm their (not my own) cultural image. So it's not a matter of linerally expanding or contracting a group. It's a matter of using and abusing something that is not yours. Egyptians were not white until Egypt became a cultural icon. Jews were not white until after the Holocaust. Italians were not white until they became a significant part of Euro-American cultural appropriation. Now Latinos and Arabs are becoming white in order to realign the population numbers. So the question is really "is there any pleasing YOU"? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 12:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better if it were some pictures of male black celebrities? Why did someone erased Jamie Foxx's and 50 Cent's pictures?
Someone has deleted all the pictures. I think is something necesary in an article of this characteristics. You can look for it in the Asian people article and in the White (people) article.
I am wondering, why after all that hemming and hawing did my version of the article get restored. I don't MIND, but I figured we were all working together. I appreciate the consideration by whomever made the choice to do so. I'm just curious as to why. It looks like the change was made by Dynamicknowledge24. I appreciate it, but I was also interested in how well the article was incorporating the required "citation" and It would be nice to merge the two. I also know that the version I started was not a cleaned up version (but goodness before it was a terrible version). So can we try to work with the two? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 06:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Was "black" an official category in apartheid South Africa?
The article says It is sometimes used to refer to all non-white people, especially in a political context. This has also been the case in South Africa. I think that this is incorrect. I'm sure that some people of colour are or were known as 'coloureds' in that country.
I also think that the article should refer to the term 'people of colour'.
As one of many millions who were active in the anti-apartheid movement, I just had to simply say how nice it is to see it referred to in the past tense. Such evil! :-D deeceevoice 06:00, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
'Black' is not generally the total lack of pigment - or have I mis-parsed that sentence? It it intensity == luminous intensity or intensity == print density?
I meant lack of intensity, but I will rephrase it so its clearer. Thanks. --Alan D
"many so-called "white" Americans are of African descent,"
Recent mtDNA, Y-Chromosome, and autosomal DNA analysis suggest that African admixture into the White gene pool has occurred at a negligible (<1%) frequency.
Isn't being "free of debt" very positive in a non-capitalist societies?
I removed this 'graph rather than trying to fix it:
An accurate replacement might just be too long to be worth the info it conveyed. I'm sure that it would take me too much effort to be worth my creating it today, and the 'graph is wrong enough to be better gone than in the article.
--
Jerzy
(t) 18:06, 2004 Aug 16 (UTC)
What is registration black, or 255 255 255 255?? How is it different from 0 0 0 255, which is black in CMYK?? 66.32.249.176 20:19, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Should I have reverted User:129.59.21.126's edits? I dunno. I feel dumb. Evil saltine 04:16, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Deleted the UK Usage section, in included:
In the United Kingdom, the term "black" refers to the simian-like people from subsaharan africa that probably are the most related to apes. [[ PaulinSaudi 04:30, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)]]
In ancient times, there were/are black aboriginal groups closely resembling Bantu throughout Asia. Presently, the so-called "Black Thai," or Tai Dam, whose facial characteristics and skin color very closely resemble those of the San of the Kalahari, are found in Thailand, Cambodia, parts of India and China. Tamils, in southern India are black -- blacker than many Africans -- and are commonly referred to as "black." And the rest of India is pretty much "black" by U.S. standards (even though most wouldn't admit it! :-p). And then, of course, there are the peoples of Melanesia, in Greek, the "Black Islands": New Guineans, for example. I've no time to add any of this to the main article, but perhaps someone else will. deeceevoice 06:17, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Super.
I think that there should be a picture, so that visual learners will be able to put a picture to the words. 68.149.202.222 23:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Here's what Neil Risch, Alberto Piazza, and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza had to say about Arnaiz-Villena's pseudoscientific methodology, used both in your cited study by the latter, as well as his tract one "on the genetic relatedness of Jews and Palestinians". Keep in mind that "Human Immunology" magazine retracted publication of the latter study based exactly on its lack of scientific merit.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b.html
Sir:
Even though the controversial withdrawal of a paper on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews by the journal Human Immunology (see Nature 414, 382; 2001) is a minor episode compared with the tragedies caused by ethnic/religious conflicts over past decades, the issues involved are worth revisiting.
The stated purpose of the paper by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. was to "examine the genetic relationships between the Palestinians and their neighbours (particularly the Jews) in order to: (1) discover the Palestinian origins, and (2) explain the historic basis of the present ... conflict between Palestinians and other Muslim countries with Israelite Jews".
They conclude: "Jews and Palestinians share a very similar HLA genetic pool that supports a common ancient Canaanite origin. Therefore, the origin of the long-lasting Jewish−Palestinian hostility is the fight for land in ancient times."
It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.
Our primary concern, however, is that the authors might be perceived to have been discriminated against for political, as opposed to legitimate scientific, reasons.
Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.
The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.
We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.
This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary. |
This term defines a race of people, not just a skin color as discussed in the opening paragraph. Black people are not just dark-skinned. Blacks have many other genetic characteristics that define the race.-- Black Man 00:08, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Talk:Black (people)/Races of Egypt
This article needs to clean up some of its language, and specifically define the terms of its discussion. For example, exactly what are "black" or "European" characterisrics that are found among these groups, but not found in others? Also, what is "black blood?" This term has no scientific merit; there is no inherent difference in the blood of those who have varying degrees of any ancestry. [[musicus, 24 July 2005]
Nothing article, not even a stub, one ill-chosen link and a naive question. Ortolan88
Not any more, moved ill-placed section from black. Previous redirect was to African American, also not quite as accurate. Quill 22:53, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
---
This paragraph moved here from the article:
A claim that different "races" of people are better suited to different locales is pretty controversial, and might well deserve its own article. A few things are well accepted, such as having darker skin making one less susceptible to sunburn, but whether skin color correlates well with "thriving" in particular climates in general is another matter entirely. In these examples, many would argue that the demographics are due more to accidents of history than to people with more melatonin being partiuclarly well-suited to the Caribbean. -- Delirium 08:15, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
Would anyone oppose moving this article to Race in society or a similarly named article, where Whites could also be discussed? As it stands, this article is dangerously close to unencyclopedic by mere virtue of its name alone. Tomer TALK 05:55, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
Deeceevoice, of course all humanity originated in Africa. This is exactly why I don't think the article should imply that, say, Tamils are particularly more African than, say, Han Chinese.-- Pharos 20:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not arguing about the use of the term "Blacks", I'm saying the quote "more broadly to persons whose ancestors formed early migratory waves of humanity from Africa in prehistoric times to members of other dark-skinned groups" implies that dark-skinned peoples outside of Africa have a closer genealogical/genetic relationship to Africans than lighter-skinned peoples do, which I don't think is demonstrated.-- Pharos 21:05, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I still think the text, though literally true, is somewhat misleading and reinforces a common but false idea. Why is it particularly relevant that dark-skinned groups had "ancestors [who] formed early migratory waves of humanity from Africa in prehistoric times"? As you say, this is true of all humanity.-- Pharos 21:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing that up. Though the idea of "Negroid" has of course been incredibly abused, I think the link is relevant. Like many things on Wikipedia, this article puts a bit too much emphasis on language. There could be far more, for example on racism and the social meaning of "blackness".-- Pharos 22:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Particuarly w.r.t. use in the U.S.A., should 'black' be capitalized? I've seen it both ways in WP, and I'm curious if there's a good reason to pick one over the other. (I also suspect that there are subtle political issues involved in the use of capital letters in white/White and black/Black...) jdb ❋ ( talk) 10:24, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think the most common usage is as it has always been -- "black/s" and "white/s" are lower-cased. deeceevoice 15:43, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The issue isnt if we have seen or not seen it in capitals, the issue is all names in English use capitals and thus black lowercase grammatical refers to a color, African people are not the color "black" so what does the black mean? This is why many people say they are African-Caribbean and not "black" because black says very little about who you are or where you are from. " black man shot a lady" what does that mean? black is a very backward way to refer to someone, it doesnt speak to culture, language or ethnic homeland. Black as a political term to group non-White people should only be used in that sense and not as a racial label. The arrogance of some is to assume they know what is best for African people and they with their european selves go and unilaterially carry out the below action, irrespective of offense and regardless of their knowledge level on the subject. If you dont know leave it alone. It is well know that black lowercase if black is to be used causes offense. If Europeans want to be labeled "white" that is another matter (they rule the world and is their business). But we dont live in a fix world and as Negro is has faded "black" (esp lowercase is fading). It is not for regressive thinkers to stand in the way of change, we base change and progress on evidence and argument, not what we are familar with or like to see. Names in ENglish are capitalized.
Lowercase "black" is by far the most common usage in the US, but capitalized B "Black" is not uncommon in ultra-politically correct writing and in Afrocentrist literature. Capital W "White", by contrast, is used almost exclusively in white supremacist literature. Kwertii 00:19, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
What does it mean if somebody capitalizes both then? -- 24.63.36.180 10:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that capitalization of the words "black" and "white" in this context is a matter of preference, and I have no problem following any reasonable standard. The vital issue in my mind is how best to communicate to the reader. Readers of this topic, especially Americans, habitually confuse four different concepts of "black" and "white".
Intelligent discourse and pedagogy are both impossible when participants unconsciously and indiscriminately switch among those four concepts. Each concept applies differently to different individuals, each arose in a different place and time historically, and each is seen differently by different people around the world. Any serious discussion of racialism must clearly distinguish among those four concepts in every single sentence.
For what it is worth, in my own writing, I use "African American" as noun and "African-American" as modifier whenever I mean the first concept (note the initial caps). I use "African-looking" versus "European-looking" whenever I mean the second concept (again, note cap use). I use "U.S. Black endogamous group" or "U.S. White endogamous group" whenever I mean the third concept, although after the first few such usages I usually shorten this to "Black" and "White" (again, note caps). I use "African genetic admixture" or "European genetic admixture" whenever I mean the fourth concept, although after the first few usages I usually shorten this to "African DNA" and "European DNA". In my writing, I use lower-case "black" and "white" only when referring to colors.
Finally, as you can see above, I put the terms in quotation marks only when the referent is the word itself. Example-1 (without quotation marks): "Rosie Perez has noticeable African appearance but is of Hispanic, not African-American ethnicity, yet English-speaking Americans probably see her as a member of the U.S. Black endogamous group. She has not published her specific Afro-European DNA admixture." Example-2 (with quotation marks): John Doe says that the word "Black" applies to Mariah Carey but not to Rosie Perez.
Do not misunderstand. I am not suggesting that anyone adopt my standards, and I am willing to adopt whatever consensus standard arises. But I dig in my heels regarding the need to distinguish among those four concepts. -- Frank W Sweet 17:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
it must be kept in mind that in africa, there are thousands of ethnic groups. it seems logical to me that members of those african ethnic groups would have, in the past or present, interbred with members of other african ethnic groups. thus, logically, there would be black africans, who are, say for example, part swahili and part xhosa.
of course, many blacks in america don't consider themselves as members of the african ethnic groups, and simply think of themselves as "black". however, i know for fact that there are some blacks in america who still adhere to an ethnic group, and it's language, culture, religion, foods, architecture, clothing styles, etc. Gringo300 30 June 2005 02:16 (UTC)
I'm fed up with going through this with every single article treating black people on Wikipedia: the perverse need to insert an endless list of pejorative, insulting racial slurs associated with the group. No other ethnic or racial group on Wikipedia receives similar treatment in articles dealing with them. There may be a legitimate need to present such information on Wikipedia -- but it should be done in a separate article. The time for automatically associating backward, ignorant, disgusting terminology with a group -- as though it defines who and what its members are -- is long past. Time for this to end. deeceevoice 14:12, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
First, deleting the entire table goes a bit far. But I suppose that was meant to evoke a response. The problem is that people have always used derogatory names for other groups. It's just that blacks have suffered most from this. I'm afraid your suggestion that this is a thing of the past will never be true. Condescending attitudes towards other groups, and the namecalling that goes with it will always be a part of mankind (well, maybe in some distant future....). Now, I can understand it's irritating to be confronted with that all the time, but 1) it's a fact so it can't be ignored in an encyclopedia and 2) ignoring it would almost be something like saying the holocaust never happened. And we can't have that either. By the way, what's 'pretty' about the table? It's just an ordinary table. I suppose that's meant as an ironic derogatory term :) .
I'd say there isn't too much use of derogatory terms in the table. There is however some explanation of how the same term can sound differently in other languages, and that's useful. Though it is confusing that the article is about Blacks in the sense of 'sub-Saharan Africans' but that the table is partly about them, but also partly about the use of the term 'Black' for other groups. In that sense the table is out of place here, but I wouldn't know where else to put it. Oh, and I notice that under the US there is a mention of 'the N-word'. Now that's useful! This is something I really dislike about US lingo. Say it or don't, but don't be halfhearted about it. If you want to say 'nigger', then say it. If you don't, then don't.
As for a solution. You suggest a separate article. If you mean splitting this one up, I'd say that doesn't solve it and the two resulting articles would be rather short. Or do you mean putting derogatory terms for all 'races' in one place? That does make sense. How about the racism article? (By the way, how do you feel about the fact that two of the three illustrations are about blacks? Just another example, but justifiable by my previous reasoning.) Let's give it a go. Let's make a list of derogatory terms for different human 'races' (which don't taxonomically exist, but that's a different issue). I can't think of too many off the top of my head (and I'm just about ready for bed :) ). One problem is that there's namecalling for other groups like nationalities. Not sure if that should go in the same table. And then there are misnomers like Indian for Native Americans. And different languages, like in the table you removed. And certain names are used for different groups too (like 'darkie' can refer to any person with a dark skin). And the same word can be good or bad in different setiings, times or countries. Much work to do :) .
White: camarron (though really for tourists in Mexico only I believe), bleekscheet
Black: nigger, darkie, chombo, nikker, roetmop, kaffer
Asian: chink (though that's for Chinese I believe)
Native American: redskin
DirkvdM 20:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Wow, some list! If only people would use their creativity in a more constructive way. Strange, though, that the racism article doesn't link to it. But about the 'pretty table', what do you have in mind then? Remove the derogatory terms (which, like I said, aren't all that many) and put it back? But then there's the 2 problems I mentioned. You suggested a separate article, but I don't see how that solves it. Another idea would be to make a list like the one I started, with just the most common terms in various languages, and put that in the racism article, with a link to the List of Ethnic Slurs, because that is rather extremely long. And the slimmed down 'pretty table' couild go back then, with a link to the racism table, so people don't get just the 'black slurs'. DirkvdM 08:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, at first you suggested a separate article, but never mind that. Now you come with a different reason, namely that this is the English language Wikipedia, which seems to be the definitive word on this (wish you would have come up with that in the first place; would have saved me some work :) ). There's still some information in the table that makes sense in the article, though. I'll give it a go. DirkvdM 20:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Just a bit of trivia here: in Brazil, the term "negro" is the politically correct, whereas "black" is deemed pejorative. I cannot vouch for other portuguese speaking countries, but this is how these words are viewed in brazilian portuguese.
^^^ someone wrote above (not me) and didn't sign their name DyslexicEditor 14:11, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Racial slurs do not belong in this article. I'm sick of readig "nigger" every time I come to an article on Wikipedia about black people. Enough! deeceevoice 15:57, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Is Wikipedia sinking to the lowest common denominator, as detractors feared when it first emerged? Unless one is an EXTREME populist, after all, one acknowledges that the majority of any population is ignorant about most things. (Specialists, by definition, specialize.) Yet if all voices are treated equally, and if increasingly they dominate postings on Wikipedia due to their sheer numbers, then the result will be an ignorant Wiki. There must be many discussions about this elsewhere, but this page (and the non-mirror image page at whites illustrates the problem as well as any other.
The intent of the Wiki founders and directors is good and clear. E.g., the Wiki guidelines state: "If possible, terms used to describe people should be given in such a way that they qualify other nouns. Thus, black people, not blacks; gay people, not gays; and so forth." Yet this page here [1] is named blacks, and that usage is prevalent throughout.
I, through my inexperience, could not isolate a particular edit, so i figured that the moderators were unilaterally editing the article.
Apologies to the wiki-moderators.
Well, the first sentence of the paragraph is false. Who would the author credit for creating the "hip-hop" style, the Italians? The article is about Black People, not when the hip-hop style of rap music began, or where. It is most certainly not a podium for extremist propaganda.
The comments surrounding this paragraph are just as bad. It equates Black culture with "the ghetto", assumes that all Blacks inherit this "ghetto life", and presumes to make the spread of this musical style as important an event in the education of anyone about Black People as the inventions we have created, our philosophical positions and the lives of Blacks who have never been touched by slavery. Music is a distracting asset in the discussion of a culture, and there are many other, more important aspects of Black Society that would edify a Wiki reader more thoroughly.
If we're taking a vote on it's inclusion, I vote no. Juan 11:53, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
I pulled this from the article and put it here, someone wanted the matter to be resolved, but didn't want to discuss it first.
What is the difference between this position, and the position you say is not true? A medium to re-express the hardship of blackness, especially Black ghetto life is the same thing as to express their heritage openly and their social concerns.
If I recall, in Jamaica, and parts of France and West Africa they were into rap in the late 80s and early 90s. Especially in West Africa, Hip Hop remained a social expression against oppression. For example Nas gives clues all over his music, the Pharaonic cover of one of his Albums "I AM" seems to relate to the French group "I AM" who also use the motif of Egyptian Pharaohs for their names. In his music, "One Mic", he references to "one God" in French. There is a deeper social and moral aspect of Hip-hop that has been present long before and still despite white meddling into it. And since in America, the social climate isn't receptive to direct social commentary in rap like it was in the 80s, subtlety is the name of the game on this side of the Atlantic. SO I would say that you added some insight but you also missed some, but the original paragraph is true, not withstanding "HOW" the phenomonon spread. Why didn't you put this on the discussion area instead of right into the article? Delving into how Hip-hop spread does nothing to deny that Black people throughout the world do benefit from the expression.
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I notice you mention Hip Hop in this article, but there is no mention of jazz, blues,rock music, gospel or even old slave hymns that were important to black people and has had such an effect on American culture/black American culture.
One could argue that some of these musical forms have had a greater impact on society then hip-hop simply based on how they've withstood the test of time and broken down cultural boundaries. I would say that blues, rock, and slavery era songs had/have their own social commentary; and if you must include hip-hop and the media driven 'hip-hop' culture in this article then it's only fair that you include the other musical forms that blacks have innovated and the culture that surrounds them.
I actually dislike hip-hop even being included in this article as there is a thought in society among blacks and whites that listening to hip-hop and embracing that as your life style has something to do with being black. So those blacks who don't listen to hip-hop and don't subscribe to it's associated culture are some how running away from their blackness, when it's nothing more then a matter of an individuals taste. There is a mass thought out there that in order to be black you have to listen to hip-hop and when you do not, you are some kind of aberration that shouldn't exist. This is not just a thought in America, but in many cultures. So, I ask that you please either remove the reference to hip-hop music in this article, or also include other important musical styles that were started by black people. Thank you.
What the heck does Black Anarchism have to do with Black People? Do we see the KKK links on the White People article? No. It's gone!
This section:
is ridiculously POV. Firstly, it quite plainly connects non-black scholars in particular with a wish to 'marginalize the significance of Black people in history'. What does their being non-black have to do with it? Are they racists? Are scholars 'often' guilty of misrepresenting black people? Another problem I have is with 'attempts to base Blackness on a biological or genetic foundation are objectively flawed' - surely they are only objectively flawed according to someone's POV! Massively POV, and this is just the opening few paragraphs... the whole article needs to be checked, and points of view mitigated with contrary voices, so I'm tagging it. -- 81.154.236.221 16:28, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
It is a little overbroad, but you cannot dispute the truth of the first sentence. I'd refine it to focus it on works during slavery, Jim Crow and such recent screeds as "The Bell Curve", but if their intent is/was different, show me how. The conclusion of the paragraph, that you cannot define Blackness genetically, can not be disputed, and is certainly unbiased. If you think otherwise, by all means, enlighten me! I am not the original author of the paragraph, but I defend it's conclusion with my own life experiences. I further intend to provide references in the near future.
Juan 12:42, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
Yup, the opening two paragraphs of the article are ludicrously POV. Actually it's a shame that this article is currently linked to from the main page, as it's a poor advertisement for Wikipedia, IMHO. Ben Finn 11:06, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I've decided to 'be bold', and have cut the most obviously POV text from the first two paragraphs, viz.:
But a quick look through the rest of the article suggests to me that this isn't the only POV text in there. Ben Finn 11:15, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
So, what gives you the right to be so bold? Isn't there a method for resolving disputes that precludes such unilateralism? Why didn't you REWORD what you felt was biased, instead of destroying it? Do you have a patent on the presentation of facts that we must license in order to use them in our presentations?
I strongly suggest that you reinsert the text while it is being discussed. Your censorship is not appreciated in the least.
Are you trying to mask the fact that Europeans and Eurasians oppressed Africans? Maybe you are of the school of thought that believes and propounds the theory that describes race as an identifier of species? If so, and even if not, who made you the arbiter of NPOV?
Once again, I strongly suggest that you reinsert the text, and allow it to be reworked by consensus. Juan 12:42, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
Consensus. I had also noted in the Eurocentricism article, that Eurocentricists take a unilateral approach in resolving issues of dispute, rather than coming to a consensus. I believe here we have an example of that. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:03, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
What is NPOV to one person can be very biased to another. You have not explained what you feel is a neutral position, but instead, you complain about what you do not like and unilateraly try to change it. Shall I change (being a Black person) the parts of the White People article I do not like in the same unilateral fashion? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:03, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't have time to revise this myself or get heavily into the debate, but for the record, I agree that this article is ridiculously POV and needs major revisions to become NPOV. Kwertii 00:24, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Juan, I see you've removed the POV and source warnings on the article. I think this is unwarranted. This extremely long article contains no sources that I can see from a quick look-through. It therefore gives the appearance of a series of original research (and somewhat POV) essays.
While your reinstatement of the text I deleted is certainly better than it was, it is still POV (and not the only POV stuff in the article):
What is the objective evidence of this sinister motivation? (None is cited.) This sentence is clearly from the POV of someone who disagrees with these unnamed non-black researchers and wants to present the alternative view as objective fact. And also, while they're it it, wants to impugn their motives. A sentence like this would not appear in any reputable print encyclopedia. Anyway, I don't have much interest in editing this article further as I have no expertise in the subject matter. But I still think it falls short of Wikipedia's standards. I hope someone will improve it. Ben Finn 11:37, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Juan 23:34, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
I see the complaints being made by some regarding the POV in the article. What I presented was a widespread point of view by BLACK people on what they consider THEMSELVES to be. Not what someone who is not part of that experiences believes. IN addition, much of the content is from a Black point of view. What is so hypocritical of those complaining about the POV in the article is that, before when the article was so crappy with a lot of anti-Black pov, and empathsis on what the word "nigger" and "negro" means (which has little relevance to Black people), very few people complained except those who were Black. Now here we are, and once again a Black perspective, which is complex, and difficult to grasp is being attacked for the parts that are critical of the white aspects. That's too bad, because White people need to get it that they are not above reproachment. I am not here to villify White people, but I am here to accurately describe what and who considers themselves Black and how that inclusionary grouping has come to be, changed, and currently is changing. PART OF THAT is the impositions by white government officials, white judges, white scholars... throughout the past three centuries. Those imposition define and redefine it for their (white people) own convenience, whether economic (slavery), social(Jim Crow/Apartheid/NAZI), or cultural (bell-curve, concerns about diffusionism and Afrocentricism).
The complaints that come and go in some of the racial articles in Wikipedia follow this format, that is, when they are distortions of Black people, no white person cares. When the distortions are removed, and in the process white people are noted for their participation in the accurate portrayals or distortions, white people cares and wants to dump the whole article. No the article won't be dumped. It doesn't matter how much you dislike my point of view, we will find a equitable (and I empathize that word) way to a consensus. We will not allow unilateral Eurocentric exasperations to dominate the future of this article. Yes, it's sad, someone said, about the article. Go back in time before I touched the article, with it's stupid chart of "negro" and "nigger" and tell me how sad that was to you? Did you find that crap enlightening or did you not read the article at that time?
yes I am very critical when the quality of insight into an issue is determined by how much a white critic is exasperated. Enough! -- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:18, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles should not represent black POV any more than they should represent white POV. They should represent NPOV. (Though that may of course include objective statements of what white and black views/beliefs are, to the extent that that's relevant.) As to the issue of whether criticisms against the article are being leveled by whites or blacks, it's of course irrelevant. The validity of a criticism depends solely on whether it is true or not, not the race of the critic. (As for my criticisms, you don't know what race I am; nor is it relevant.) Ben Finn 10:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Well here is a newsflash, Wikipedia seems to present a white POV all too often. Except for the Nazi articles, I find an annoying habit of the articles being softened up when White people are being criticized. I do not see this softening up of other groups. I also see an unnecessary need to "prove" things with racial issues, for example, in the Curse of cain article, the writer tries to somehow soften up the significance of associating Black people with Cain because a slave had made the connection in her writing in the 19th century (you know, the old idea, if one black persoon did it ignorantly, then it must be ok to flaunt it as fact). One article on Mormonism, the writer tried to make it look like a Black Mormon had somehow been the catalyst of all of the anti-Black policies in the Mormon church. In another, the Caucasoid article, someone kept trying to include Ethiopians as Caucasoids, based on craniometry, and Coon's analyses, despite the fact that Coon himself had indicated that the Ethiopians had Negroid tendecies in their skulls. It's hard to do checks and balances on POV about race when the owners of the media, the arbitrators of the service, and those of an opposing view are all overwhelming of the same background. Again, where were you when the silly "negro" chart was on this article?-- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
WHy is any reference to East India taken out of the article? I agree that we need to cite the sources, a process that I am horribly unfamiliar with doing. But I do believe that Black people are abundant in India, about 20-30 percent of the population, depending on who is counting. I am aware of the Dalit movmements that AFFIRM the blackness of the Dalit people in India (about 100 million of them), as well as the Siddi people and many Dravidians consider themselves Black. However, I am aware of many East Indians who hate Black people so much that the mere mention of there being a Black presence in that country scares them to death. I will place the East Indian references BAAAACK into the article. Unilateral removals of course is underhanded, and I would like some insight BEFORE it's done.-- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I would appreciate some assistance in resource citing and what not. i am not able to go through 500 books and a thousand articles to cite to prove what I have put into the article. I do know that we all in here can collaborate and find the references. Since web-based material is not considered on par with written material (and I can respect that), I would hope someone in here can provide. Runoko Rashidi, for example did a very well in depth insight into this topic.-- Zaphnathpaaneah 19:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi, everyone. I just stumbled on this page for the first time today and it's causing me to lose faith in wikipedia as a concept. The language and organization is so bad, most of the sections overlap and repeat information, and there are so many confusing, slanted, and false statements that I can't even begin to address them one by one. I think we could do a lot better if we started from scratch, but before we do that, we should have a discussion about what the goals of this article are, and what the layout should be. In my opinion, race is a social construct, not a genetic one, so to me the article should focus on the sociological use of the term "black". The various anthropological 'research' over the years that has attempted to define who is black should be presented as just that: attempts to define who is black. We would also do well to define ahead of time what sections to have and what info these sections will cover. What does everyone think? ThePedanticPrick 21:50, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
These (and much of the rest of the article) are blatantly POV assertions. If we can find references to specific published works that advocate these POVs, I'm all for including these POVs, but we mustn't just assert them as though they are generally accepted fact. They need to be referenced, and the article needs to make it clear that they are controversial. On the capitalization of "Black" throughout the article: as a racial identifier, the word "black" is written with lowercase-b "black", not uppercase-B "Black". Writing "Black" with an uppercase-B is as pretentious and racist as writing uppercase-W "White" is (which is almost never done outside the context of white supremacist literature), especially as almost all instances of "white" as a racial construct are written with lowercase-w. That is indisputably lopsided, racist, and belies the editorial slant that informs much of this article. And, allow me to say preemptively: no, this is not merely some knee-jerk reaction of a scared Eurocentric white afraid of the very concept of Blackness encroaching on my snowy-white Nazi worldview; as another poster said, nobody here has any idea what my race is, nor does it matter. This article needs major refactoring and referencing to become NPOV. Kwertii 01:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I have read enough complaints about the quality standards. I am firstly, convinced that yes, the article needs a lot of citations, of course. I am also convinced that the biased attitude of some of the critics here is obvious, as the white people article lacks the same standards as this article. Two references. One reference to a criticism of the term (which is irrelevant since the term itself lacks references) and one governmental refernce to the U.S. census, which I also have in this article. In addition, there is ONE link to an outside source, no books, and no professors so and so, no nothing. Shall we start rewriting the white people article? It miserably fails to meet the standards of quality that critics here earnestly point out. I think the critics need to find a reasonable attitude and to set their racial fears and egos aside and deal with the uncomfortable issue rationally. Right now I see an immature eurocentric attitude and yes a knee-jerk response. I see critics anticipating how I may respond to their next comments, but no real interest in truthseeking other than to defend the "honor" of the white race (or social construct or whatever). The "white people" article sucks, it's lame, it's retarded. I don't care, because I am interested in this article. If you want to be constructive, be constructive. Do not try to come in here with a notion of fairness and think I am too dumb to notice obvious things. Where is the neutrality and lack of citation tag on the white people article???-- 68.60.55.162 05:47, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me empathize how bad the White people article is, (and thus explain why the critical complaints about quality in this article are so offensive). The only outside link about white people in the article goes to a website www.white-people.com which among all things has this:
Chapter 9. Alpha and Omega - The Rise and Fall of Civilizations - The rise and fall of civilizations explained in terms of their racial homogeneity; with the Near East civilizations as examples;
This garbage racist link is THE link in the white people article? Grow up. It is no doubt in my mind that whoever is writing and editing the white people article is engaging in some kind of ulterior motive. Well beyond the POV concerns you have here. Firstly Egypt was a mixed-black civilization, owing its dynastic origins to the South. Secondly, the damn link equates "Caucasoid MIXTURE with pure-whiteness" which is a bad habit that white people have of doing. But you know what, leave that racist link in the white people article, it demonstrates the biased prejudiced nature of white group mentality, -- 68.60.55.162 05:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me also remind the readers how unreliable Thepedantricprick is as he points out problems in this article, but ignores those same problems in the white people article. He not only fails to mention the same problems, but he does not acknowledge the same problem when mentioned by others. So no, I am not taking your concerns to much merit now. Apart from that, the critical comments about this article is a load of semiliterate horseshit. Carry on.
Unacceptable. You do not unilaterally apply standards in one area of wikipedia under ultimatium to delete the article, while ignoring the same lack of standards pointed out. I do not care what your race is, what I care about is the overall big picture of Wikipedia showing a biased POV slant in favor of white people at the expence of black people. Go read the whtie people article. They just made some changes thanks to your comments. I saw a lack of change beforehand even though some of the same concerns were raised. Only now, is some action being taken. The black people article is not bad, it is firstly unfinished, and open for honest adjustment. Trying to dump it is unacceptable. -- 68.60.55.162 06:02, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
There is an area in India inhabited by Black jews. This area is known as Cochins, and is documented currently and in antiquity. Cochin_Jews and Herodotus mentioned the Colchins (in modern Georgia) as Black:
"it is undoubtedly a fact that the Colchians are of Egyptian descent. I noticed this myself before I heard anyone else mention it ... My own idea on the subject was based first on the fact that they have black skins and woolly hair... and secondly, and more especially, on the fact that the Colchians, the Egyptians and the Ethiopians are the only races which from ancient times have practiced circumcision." - Although this story is heresay, it is not an account to be dismissed as a fabrication. This is not "vandalism" or "nonsense". -- 208.254.174.148 20:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Why is there no mentions about blacks having a smaller IQ than the rest of the population? Ashkenazi-article has a mention about their high IQs, so I think we should also note which races have a low IQ. Lapinmies 12:37, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Most of what people consider to be race is really about regional characteristics that are inherited and have little to nothing to do with the underlying genetic variances that have any sort of medical relevance. I suggest you do some actual research before spewing disinformation about certain ethnic groups being genetically superior to others. The scientific community cannot agree on the exact definition of race or what intelligence actually is and any way to accurately measure it. So please explain to me how there is supposed be some sort of scientific correlation drawn between two concepts that are not properly defined. This is the reason why the “facts are suppressed” because they are neither factual by any definition nor have a purpose other than to propagate flawed data emanated from flawed research. Next time make sure you actually know what you’re talking about. Especially before making a suggestion to edit a source where others come to educate themselves, something you obviously have no interest in doing.- Concerned Non-Wikipedia Member
I really don't see why IQ is at all relevant to the page. IQ is IQ, intelligence is not IQ. It's like claiming to be able to measure different levels of 'average' beauty between races, based on a Miss America beauty pagent with a panal of elderly white judges doing the judging. Hmm, I wonder who will win when the choice is between a black woman, an asian woman, an arab woman and a blond haired blue eyed white girl? And how exactly do you define intelligence? If you could show me some proper evidence that there are differences in intelligence levels between races then sure, I would have to agree it should probably be on the page. But IQ tests only measure the ability of an individual to answer an IQ test, nothing more. Therefore why should anyone want any mention of IQ tests on a page about a certain race, when IQ tests have such a long history of being used by racists to promote illogical and irrational prejudices? Unless of course you are interested in proving that black people are somehow stupider than other races. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.67.76.89 ( talk • contribs) 02:36, 8 October 2005 (UTC).
Well Lapinmies I appreciate you removing the lyric. I certainly don't like curtailing freedom of speech for senseless PC reasons, and I appreciate that you are not racist. However, I just really don't think any credence should be given to racial IQ claims. This is not PC gone mad, this is simple logic. Intelligence cannot be measured any more than it can be defined as a single entity able to be compared across individuals, who are likely to differ far more in IQ than races. And what about social conditions? Again and again it must be pointed out that it's no wonder that the poorest people also often tend to have the highest crime rates and the lowest IQ rates: they don't go to good schools and they crime is often highly profitable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.67.76.89 ( talk • contribs) 17:25, 12 October 2005.
When an editor points out something is missing the correct response is not to explain away the need for the section -- in all but the most trollish cases, that he has asked is proof enough that the article is lacking. IQ should be mentioned, if anyone has the initiative to do it. It comes up often in discussion; no psychology or sociology class would be complete without a debunking of IQ tests and why certain races do better or worse. A short paragraph and a link to Race and Intelligence would be good. Any breif debunking can be included. The phrasing should stick to the facts; IQ scores differ (steer clear of "intelligence") - 71.112.11.220 16:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
IQ discussion is in no way relevant to Black people. The mention of IQ tests, which are disputed of objectivity, do nothing more than reinforce a conceived notion that Black people are in some way "less" than whites and northern asians. This isn't the place for your insistence of reinforcing deep-seeded prejudices. One day, when IQ tests are not used to prove intellect, then sure we can put them here. IQ tests are useful for individual purposes, not racial discourse. NO one is ever going to suggest that low scoring IQ whites should be treated any differently (in any less way) than higher scoring IQ blacks. So no, keep the IQ BS out of this article. And why don't you get over your obsession of trying to comfortably compartmentalize blacks beneath whites. - Zaph.
I think we need a new template reading "This article is intensely retarded."
And of course you didn't put your name, or give any reasons. Typical "I dont want Black people to think for themselves, I want them to think the way I feel is best, cuz I'm white and I don't like black unity. " reaction - Zaph
Yes, before you type it in, I know... you aren't white. You should be able to disagree without being white. yes yes. - Zaph.
No discussion. No more "sub" words to describe Black people. Use "Equatorial" to describe Black Africans. - Zaph.
Well, Sub-Saharan as a relationship to the Sahara is far less accurate to describe people outside of Africa, as you indicate. You yourself indicate that black people are indigenous to many areas that are quite far from the equator. You can choose to call them "non-Equatorial Black people" and we can debate that. But that is not related to the people who DO live IN Africa. the issue is the appropriateness of "Sub-saharan" vs "Equatorial". Equatorial describes a human type. "Tropical" would be another better choice. I use Equatorial, because black people who are indigenous to many areas outside of the equator certainly relate closely to those Equatorial people(and again we can debate that). All "sub-saharan" does is put the entire Black population of Africa in the context of a desert. That's silly. No one ever thought to call Europe "Peninsular Asia". No, that section of "eurasia" gets their own continent, even breaking the rule of what a continent is. Wikipedia is partly a resource to clarify, and I am clarifying. Black Africans are not "Sub-saharan" they are Equatorial. there are Black people way out of Africa that you can say "are not equatorial" but they are certainly not "sub-saharan" either. - Zaph
I think the other issue is that you and I disagree on the value of using language to change thinking processes. I believe that "Sub" is a prefix that reinforces a inferiority in the minds of black children and in the minds of white people. Do you find it coiencidence that the label goes in line with a people that are considered to be "sub"-intelligent based on "IQ" tests? or a people who are considered to be "sub"-human in their ability to grow and function socially based on the past 500 years of interaction with Europeans? Or a people who are expected to be sub-ordinate to the authority and policy making of White and European leadership? Or a people who are taught to be sub-missive to the social priorities of White people, especially in economic, educational, and cultural things? So when I see "sub" to describe Black people, a "NPOV" flag comes up in my mind. Lets do away with "sub" saharan. - Zaph
As a clarification. Ever listen to the word "Suburban"? The psychological impact of that is not there, even though the word is "sub-urban". Why? Because in the states, the 'Burbs are where affluent white people live and the now 'technically' proper use of the syllables 'sub' - 'urb' - 'an' has shifted to 'su' - 'burb' - 'an' in order to de-empathize the negative or unappealing context of being "beneath" the city. Remember, originally the Suburbs were the crappy rural areas of European and early American cities. - Zaph.
Pedantricprick - you are way out of line removing the large sections of the talk page. The discussions between the rest of us was relevant, and there is no reason to remove them. You do not remove something you disagree with and call it superfluous. I am sorry that discourse about race and black people is so touchy with you, that the mere debate about it causes you to over react. Perhaps with discourse about Kashmir, Israel, Russia, and other "non-black related debate" you feel less inclined to take the nuclear options you take here, but I am here to make sure that won't happen. This discussion is tense, it's touchy, it's hard. But it is no less worthy or relevant to the respect of any other controversal subject. I am so sick of the attitude of putting black-related-discourse under a paternalistic overcompensating form of censorship. I have seen flagarent ignorance left on talk pages. I see you left the discussion about IQ tests (which is far less relevant than whether or not Egypt and India have sizeable Black populaionts) in here. I am not going to tolerate your fake-ness. Aren't you the same person that obsessed about using the capital "B" in Black in this article, while also ignoring the fact that "W" was used in the White people article? Yes, you (or whomever) did change the W, but only after I pointed out the obvious contradiction. Someone had mentioned it earlier that month, and her comment was ignored. So no, I restore the content you deleted. And I reported you. - Zaph
Hey you got me, I had scanned some of the sections above, and hocus-pocus they weren't there. Now they are. Why don't you just leave the talk page alone. That's what it's here for. Free-form discussion. I am trigger happy about our freedom of speech. Don't tread on me :) - Zaph.
Since there are multiple allegations of NPOV on the talk page, I'm putting a notice on the article. Small black sun 05:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
So quick to cry POV, so slow to address it... 5 days to go - Zaph
Ok I will make a deal with you. If I respond to your concern, you gotta actually acknowledge and respond to my response. For example. Mysekurity has replied a few times AFTER I responded regarding my unwillingness to sign my name on the talk posts. Mysekurity, you should actually acknowledge what I had already stated (I believe also on YOUR talk page). When you fail to do that, that also causes the lack of trust in handling the article. If you ask me to sign my name, and then I respond and tell you that Wikipedia gives errors when I try... you should then respond to that instead of repeating your request that I sign my name. When you fail to respond, you make me think that 1. you are not reading my replies, and just pretending to act professional. 2. You read my responses, but are intentionally ignoring them, and repeating yourself, to try to make me look bad. So for the third time. When I try to sign into Wikipedia, 90% of the time, Wikipedia has a server related problem. - Zaph.
The cause and effect of IQ testing is disputed, Although all of these tests have been denounced for their lack of objectivity, or have disproven the myths they were tested for, many people still accept some of these myths as self-fufilling facts. In the IQ testing area, the characteristic lack of objectivity in regards to race and intelligence, is revealed in the fact that the testing methods do not use a control or any further detailed study to investigate the relationship between the racial categories and the IQ tests. (ex. test variations within each race do not investigate the amount of interracial mixture within the individuals, or the subgroups of the races, and where those are done, there is no correlation to their genetic makeup as sub-groups and their IQ.
Perfect example. Those children without fathers in their lives experience a far greater disparity in educational achievement. Well, Black children are substantially more likely to not have their fathers in their lives in this day and age. I think that example should give more perspective to the value of IQ tests and their relationship with intelligence. - Zaph
I do however have to agree with you there "zaph" race has NOTHING to do with intelligence and thats some bullshit it got me pissed when I read it.
For god's sake, do you guys come in here dreaming and sleeping about the big bad black intellectual? Israel, Jewry, Arab, and those other racial and ethnic groups where there is currently war, destruction, racism abound, and all sorts of ignorance, they do not have this much "controversy". What do you guys think is going to happen? This article is going to be respected and then Black people are going to take over the world and enslave you all? Shit! If you want to contribute positively to the article then DO so, but stop putting up complaints, then folding your arms with a smile, and expecting any black person who reads your complaint to do a dance and step to conform to your concern! Enough with this "Oh no no no, negro, we must put a stop to your assertive point of view, let me put a "flag" on your articles!" How many more stupid flags can you put in here to distort the reader from reading the article objectively? - Zaph
Well since no one actually has tried to work together, but instead merely pointed out controversies, I believe that you Pedantric and Mysekurity are talking the talk, but not walking the walk. - Zaph.
I am not accusing you of being a racist. I am annoyed that people voice complaints about the article, but offer little positive suggestions, or alternatives, NOR investigate the matters in question. It's a very counterproductive way of handling the issue, despite the fact that it's done civily. I find myself less trusting of a civil person who withholds positive suggestions of substance, than I would of a person who is less civil but more active in actual results. - Zaph
Whenever I try to add something to a wikipedia page, worried whites usually delete it. All I'm Saying is that the horrible anti-black racism you claim is in Egypt and other Arab countries simply isn't there. In the Arab world an Arab is one whose family language is Arabic, not a color. Populations in the Middle East are so mixed that harldy anyone thinks about brown or black. America is where the real racism is. Whether its wiggers subtly thinking they can do black culture better than blacks or traditional Mississippi hick lynch mobs, nowhere in the world hates Black fols as much as the USA. Many American dark skinned people feel let out of a racial prison when they travel abroad to the Middle East.
I don't have to explain nothing to you, but I will say that the situation in Sudan is ridiculous, because they are all black! I tell you it all started with Europeans taking over Egypt. Then they hired only Yugoslavian and Bosnian actors to play in films to brainwash the population. The last king in the 50's was Albanian! This was all part of a grand design to disunify the region. So now you have brown Arabs that wish they were white so bad that they call themselves that, even though real white laugh at them. Its like mullatoes in the days of slavery trying to brag about being "white" to all the other full-black slaves when the white master considered them all "niggers". We sure have to overcome racism in the middle east, and so does everyone else.
What is the word in the Middle East for "Black person"? It's "Abd" (slave). As in "Hey Slave come here, where are your papers?" or "I don't like my daughter marrying that Slave, she should marry a good (white) Arab instead."
Oh and just so you know, it's not worried whites that delete it. It's me, Zaph, the Black person who took the most effort in rewriting this article, I am the one that deletes it. I think you are the same person that kept deleting all the references to Egypt and the Middle East having Black heritage? Are you "Mr. Egyptian", the person I discussed earlier? I will give Pedantric some credit for pointing out this above. But in addition to that, Referring to Black "Arabs". I posted an article on Basra-Iraq where Black Iraqis are going through the same BS there that you mention about in America. - Zaph
No I'm not "Mr. Egyptian". And man are you a know-it-all. You talk about all these places like you actually have been there. You say black ""Arabs"" so sarcastically. it really offends you doesn't it. Ok so some idiots in the middle east may say abed. What's the America word for black people "nigger"? Whats the black vernacular for whites "cracker"? Whats the black AND white army word for arabs "desert niggers"? Everybody has derogatory terms for everybody, fool. I don't defend Arab racists, black racists, white racists, hispanic racists or anyone else. But not all middle easterners are racist believe me, unlike your strange, judgemental, prejudiced self, I have been to Jordan and Palestine, two Middle Eastern Arab nations.
That is totally outside of what i am saying though. I never implied that arabs are predominantly racist. What I am saying is that Arabization (the cultural imposition of Arab identity on non Arab people) is a real issue in North East Africa. You think that because I bring that up, I'm being racist on Arabs? Thats rediculous. And by the way, does it strike you odd that the racist slur for Arabs is "desert nigger?", I always found that to be weird. When you get to Sudan and Egypt, get back to me - Zaph
Zaph, we don't need you to keep explaining what you think "arabization" is. I have been to Egypt, actually. I went there with my cousins. For a little background information, my cousins have an arabic dad , and a white american mom. They look, however like white americans. When we entered a run down section of town(in Cairo), some little (brown arab)boys trew pebbles at them and called them americans. This only happened because they looked white. Truth is, people are just scared of people that look different from them. Are you saying you were one of those soldiers in Iraq, shooting Arabs and calling them "desert niggers"? And you did imply that all Arabs are racist. "what's the middle east word for black people" That is a word used by ignorant idiots and is in no way representative of the entire middle east. You have proven yourself far too predjudiced to edit this page, but that's just my humble opinion. -Niz
I have changed the {{
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sign your comments on talk pages, even if just with an IP address (which is already visible by viewing the history, and will eliminate comments like "are you 'Mr. Egyptian'?" because you will be able to see who it really is). Thanks and happy editing, [[
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19:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Well I am an Egyptian and Consider myself non white even though I have many times been been mistaken for hispanic or latin or greek in origin.
We (the Arabs) view ourselves and the Berbers and to a lesser extent the Taureg, as the People of North Africa, a Black Arab, is no less an arab as say one of those often spoke about but seldom seen White lebanese or Syrian. Only a handfull of American Arabs view themselves as white, Quadaffi in his green book (kittab al akhdar) even refers to Whites and the Arab as meaning arabs are non white.
To be arab is to have come from peoples whos origin is in Yemen, all the talk about semitism is something European Jews and Protestant Christian Archaeologists Invented. To be a semite is to be an Arab. But not every arab is from Shem, some of us are from Ham as well.
We are a mixed people, even today it is culturaly acceptable among the Muslims to take a black bride. when one is older and your wife is old.
Somalis and Yemenis, have mixed with eachother for 2-3 millenia. Please do not ascribe things for my race we do not ascribe for ourselves. the Arabs conqured Egypt in the 640s, you talk as though the conquest and ethnic and racial transformation was not complete. not even solomon (sulaiman) can seperate us from North africa.
I agree, this should be archived, and after that point, each one of the issues of disagreement should be posted, clearly, with alternatives. Allowing for a reasonable period of response, and collaboration BEFORE a "NPOV" flag is put on the article itself. You should not put NPOV's on articles before discussing and contributing constructively. If that were not respected, practically every humanities article (and some science articles) would have NPOV flags up all the time! It is not good enough to simply say "the whole article is terrible, it's that bad that a NPOV should be put up anyway!" That is where I start to sense some level of racism. In my opinion there is so much BS in the Mormon articles and so much POV in the Israel/Palestine articles, that I would take the same approach, but obviously, that is not how these issues are handled. So I think you guys all get it. Let's handle this article with the same respect. Some of you in here who are NOT Black, may not be aware of some of the information in the article, and you may want to consider the notion that there are some things about Black people that you just aren't familiar with or know about. And no, I am not talking about little psysciological and psychological idiosyncracies. Now, I hope you Pedantric and Myse will "second" this. - Zaph
P.S. Invariably, when I try to login, Wikipedia experiences server issues. Often when I try to update the Black People article, Wikipedia experiences difficulties. Anyone else having this problem?
Why are there anti-Arab inuendos in the article. I have lived in Egypt and there is minimal racism there, people don't think about color. Why do you have to slander arabs in this artcle??
What is anti-Arab in the article? Arabs are not villified in here. Arabization (that is the racist practice of forcing non-arab people to adopt Arabic as a language, culture, and identity) is a real situation. I also have and know Egyptians who dispute you. You want to talk to them? In Egypt, racism prevails where Black people are in question. WHy do you accuse me of slandering Arabs when that is not happening? It is like an article about NAZIs and Jews and a German accusing the writer of slandering Germans. - Zaph
its sad that Egypt has racists when a good proportion of Egyptians are darker than American blacks. It's like they hate themselves and don't even know it.
To the person who claims that people from the Maghreb are less black I would like some proof. The countries include Morocco, Mauretania, Algeria, Niger and Libya. Every Libyan I have ever seen has been very dark skinned or mixed. Moroocians and Mauretanians are both located in West Africa so I did not know when West africans became white. If so I would at least like a refernce to something that proves so and explains why other than someone own racist point of view that all black must look like the ones they see on tv in America. Unitl proof that Maghreb is home to mostly none black is proven I will remove these falsities from the article. Jmac800
I will not stop you. I personally find the silly idea that Northern Africans are less Black annoying. BUT I don't know about those areas (except Egypt). Just get ready for the complaints from "legitimate" sources. I backed off cuz I couldn't dispute them, and yes, the racism in Libya kind of tipped it in their favor. - Zaph
Zaph one wonders why you are so passionate about "black" in the first place. here is a website showing Libyan girls. http://www.janzour.com/Traditional%20costumes.htm some appear black others appear caucasian others are what I call arabs.
here is the Libyan Highschool Militia http://www.libya-almostakbal.com/images/chad%20war/chadWar2/0000226142-009.jpg I count one black there how many do you see?
http://www.libya-almostakbal.com/images/chad%20war/chadWar2/0000226142-007.jpg Libyan boy scout troop this boy in the forground is your average libyan. Mediteranean far closer to caucasian than negroid. wouldnt you agree?
And Libyans hate outsiders any libyan would hate a german as much as they hate the black african workers.
I think this section is poorly written, poorly supported, and just plain unnecessary. For each of the myths listed, I'll explain why it's either POV or unnecessary. 1. That black Africans rarely ventured from the continent of Africa of their own free will, and instead came merely as slaves or hired soldiers to Asian civilizations. We've already got some good data here about Africoid migrations, both prehistoric and later. 2. Intelligence quotient standardized testing, a very recent Western social practice, holds some defining or relevant intellectual characteristic of black, and especially West African descendants. Poorly written, and can't we just link to Race and Intelligence? 3. Most Old World cultures that show equatorial featured peoples (Egypt, India) do not represent black people, but instead represent Caucasian people with a tan. I'm not even sure how widespread this myth is. It's news to me. In any case, Zaph has provided some awesome links proving that ancient Egyptians were black (or partly black). Can't we discuss this briefly and be done with it? 4. The growing black presence in many cultures contributed to the demise of the societies and civiilizations they inhabited. Again, who is making this claim? Other than that wacko over on [www.white-history.com white-history.com] 5. In pre-modern times, invention, discovery, and adaptation was a one way affair, only non-blacks would invent, create, or express a new idea or art form, and those in Africa would eventually mimic it. Again, misguided racist rhetoric. Not a widespread belief that needs to be counteracted here. 6. Blacks are predisposed (either biologically or inherently through cultural history) towards self-destruction. This one's just vague. 7. Black people must have originated from Caucasoid ancestors. I usually hear the opposite from racists, i.e, that black people are less evolved. Has anyone ever wondered what color apes are underneath their hair? For all we know, black people could be MORE evolved than white people. In summary, this whole section is just kind of sloppy, but what's worse, it's very negative and depressing. Why not just state positive things about black people without having to enumerate all the stupid outrageous things certain bigots believe? Can we get rid of it?
I am ok with getting rid of it. This was mostly a response to the person who insisted on putting IQ testing into the article. But I would want to leave this section in here the talk section. - Zaph
No, we cannot link it to race and intelligence, because IQ test results do not show any valid, reasonable, or logical link between race and intelligence. - Zaph.
I appreciate sincerely the editing done in that section. I have the hardest time clarifying some of the points in the article. I added one paragraph to it. Anyone want to work on the next section? - Zaph
Here was a comment from a "anonymous" source:
"Why are there anti-Arab inuendos in the article. I have lived in Egypt and there is minimal racism there, people don't think about color. Why do you have to slander arabs in this artcle??"
Let me respond directly on two fronts. Firstly, I am getting tired of Arab, European, and anyone-else-avian complaining about "anti-my-racial-group" comments in the article. There is something you have to accept, and that's historical facts and current events. In North Africa, Black people are fighting against racism, period. I have relatives from Mauretania, who are here because they were treated like Blacks in 1955 Mississippi by their government and the "Arab" neighbors. I know Egyptians who (although relatively lightskinned), consider themselves Black and consider the "arab" attitude of Egypt to be nothing more than selling out bullcrap. I know people in Ethiopia who remember when they were younger 30 to 40 years ago, that Ethiopia was practically all Black and all Christian, now every other person in Ethiopia want's to get on the Islamic-Arab bandwagon. I don't care what Black people in America think about Christianity being a white man's religion because in East Africa, whose Christian heritage is earlier than any in Western Europe, one way of selling out your Blackness and jumping on the Arab (I.E. not Black) bandwagon is by renouncing your Christian heritage to Islam. I know this, because my Ethiopian friends tell me so. This is what happens. Need I go into the silliness in Sudan?
(I see "Zaph" you have sunk to the level of comparing race to religion)
So the second front. Quote FROM the article one slander against Arabs. One IMPLIED slander. And if you can't, then take a moment and rethink something. Maybe you should not be so quick to find LEGITIMATE criticism of history and current events "slanderous". Black people are critisized all over Wikipedia, in all sorts of articles, and I have no slanderous accusation. - Zaph.
Now I doubt that you have ever read a quality book such as "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" , but in that book (written over 40 years ago) Malcolm reflects that he discovered that Ethiopia was mostly Muslim, but had held on to a "Christian" image due to the policies of the Christian ruling regime, regardless Islam and Christianity don't have anything to do with race, no matter what you say. Racism is not acknowledged in any of the holy texts of either religion. I don't know if you've really ever met anybody from Mauritania but the Arabs over there are mostly darker skinned than black Americans. Let me give YOU some advice, kid. If you see anyone slandering black people, don't sit back fam, do something. I won't deny that there are Arab bigots, there are racists in every corner of the world. The slave trade was run by Whites, Blacks, and Arabs and everybody was wrong to do it. I simply don't see the reason Arabs were singled out while other blatant racists were not. Let me now tell you something about myself. I am an Arab but my grandfather was an Arab black man. When I went to live back in my Palestine, I expirienced no discrimination like I did in America. Over there, I made good natured jokes against lighter skinned people and they did the same to me for my complexion. No body "looked at me weird", and there was no hostility. Educate yourself more fam, and God bless.
Ok I snipped 95% of the conversation, where I think the content went from racial (black people) to religious. feel free to correct, or update. You, TerrelWatkins~NIZ, feel free to continue this on my talk page. I have a whole section devoted to this coversation, and I have no problem clarifying the points both of us make, that will prevent any confusion. I don't want to email because it's less productive, and I want WITNESSES. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Zaphnathpaaneah
I am going to standardize the first part of the article to reflect a continuity with the other articles (White, Arab, Jewish, Latino, Asian, etc). I want to AVOID trying to "be like" the white people article, however, the first paragraph looks like a group of people took a lot of effort to COLLABORATE on it. The first paragraph looks like an objective approach, ill adopt the format, for the readers' sakes, however the important distinctive differences will remain. - Zaph
It is not a "claim" that the one drop rule was invented by white politicians for the sake of white social sensiblities in the 18th and 19th century. Laws were made based on this rule, i took "It has been claimed that" out of the statement in the "Criticisms of the term" section. Come on. - Zaph
Look, I won't ask you to spell out my name in it's entirety. Pedantic is not easy to remember at this point, and I make not intention of misspelling. I'll try to cut and paste from no on, but I'll call you Ped till then (just kidding). -- 68.60.55.162 00:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Zaphmacarana
Let this section contain wording that needs to be changed. Primarily, my concern is that the wording used often reflects racialized sentiments, and not neutrality.
For example "miscegenation" would not be a good choice to describe the mixing and intermarriage between Black and Semetic north Africans in ancient history. It implies some kind of illicit or improper behavior.
Bravo Paul, you have elaborated on something I have had difficulty doing. And "essentialist" is a word I am going to use now on. This is the same reason I have issues with "sub-saharan" and "true negro". - Zaph.
How much more do we need to do to remove the flags anyway? - Zaph
I'd say the frequent, matter-of-fact claims of eurocentrism on the part of scholars and people in general need to go. Unless the author says "I am eurocentric, europe is great and wonderful, and this is how I feel about x", then we need some real proof that the author or idea being quoted is, in fact, eurocentric. ThePedanticPrick 19:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I was just looking through the previous edits to see what's going on. I found 152.163.101.11's vandalism quite entertaining. It's the little things that racists do to give our bland boring politically correct days a little zap of fun huh? - Zaph, one of the original inhabitents of the welfare office.
Original paragraph:
Many scholars criticize the hypodescent rule. Although others theorise that their motives for doing so are often to limit any social movement towards economic self-determination among black diaspora. The One Drop Rule, now villified by many Eurocentric scholars (especially when applied to ancient cultures by Afrocentric scholars), had been established by white politicans generations ago, to prevent racial mixing. This one drop rule, which white American, Australian, and, to a lesser extent, other colonies had established for the sake of upholding white society's perceptions of purity with its own identity, became the de facto social experience for black people across the United States. For the sake of moral solidarity against the presumed immoral oppression, this rule was embraced by black people in America, especially in a Christian context, and the effect has become a permanent aspect of black identity. Once black literature and intellectual expression experienced a boom in the beginning of the 20th century, the hypodescent rule is said to have become a new threat to European colonial ambitions, and to white racial-social controls.
Comments:
The original paragraph conflates hypodescent (the notion that anyone of even slight sub-Saharan phenotype is Black) with the one-drop rule (that someone of utterly European appearance and White self-identity but with a known trace of African admixture is also involuntarily Black). The former custom dates to the early colonial period (around 1700) while the latter did not become widespread or statutory until the early 20th century. The former is common in other former British colonies (substituting ‘’Coloured’’ for ‘’Black’’) while the latter is unique to the United States.
FrankWSweet 17:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Let us clarify this then:
I had written a fairly long reply, but I would rather instead just see you make whatever changes you feel you want to make, and lets see where we go. The problem is, you are seperating two things, one which entails the other, and they are not mutually exclusive in any event. The one-drop rule is a form of hypodescent, and Black by hypodescent would include all other races (including white) -- 68.60.55.162 00:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
Sorry, but that is not what I was trying to say. What I meant to say was:
Hypodescent — the notion that anyone of even slight sub-Saharan phenotype is Black. For example, it would be an expression of hypodescent to consider Tiger Woods and Halle Berry to be Black, despite that the fact that each has less than 50% African genetic admixture.
One-drop rule — the notion that someone of utterly European appearance and White self-identity but with a known trace of African admixture is also involuntarily Black. For example, it would be one-drop rule to consider Carol Channing or Martin Sheen (or his sons Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen) to be Black, despite the fact that they look White and consnder themselves White, merely because they have acknowledged Black ancestry (Channing's father, Sheen's grandmother).
In short: Hypodescent is "If you look even slightly African then you are Black." One-drop is, "If you do not look even slightly African and do not consider yourself Black, but you acknowledge Black ancestry, then you are Black anyway."
As you say, the one-drop rule is hypodescent taken to its ridiculous extreme. The former depends upon the later. American society could not have invented the one-drop rule had it not already subscribed to hypodescent. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive because one (one-drop) is a subset of the other (hypodescent), sort of the way the concepts "nickels" and "coins" are not mutually exclusive.
My point was that the mild form of hypodescent (labeling Halle Berry and Tiger Woods black) is historically old, dating from about 1705 in the U.S., and geographically widespread (common in most Anglophone countries). But the hypodescent extreme of one-drop rule (labeling Martin Sheen and Carol Channing black) is historically recent (1910) and unique to the United States. In short, although one notion depends upon the other, they are empirically different concepts, different social phenomena, that arose in different centuries, were adopted in different lands, and were designed to serve different ends. I thought it would be wise to avoid conflating them. I have no opinion (and little interest) as to the motives of either Whites or Blacks who either oppose or advocate either of the two notions.
I had already made the changes before I posted my original comments above. -- FrankWSweet 01:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I saw them, I think it's ok, although the statement "to resolve their social status" is just a little too nicey nice. It brings a picture of the nice, not-really racist white politicians in Virginia calmly saying (for the sake of good reasons) that the children should be considered black. Let's reword that to reflect the reality of the slavery movement that was gaining momentum in those days please. - -- 208.254.174.148 04:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)Zaph
If I may be so bold, it seems still rather soft. I mean "the europeans were exempt." Almost sounds like native americans were the ones deciding which kids were black and which ones were white. There is a lack of connection between the subject and object in the structure of the idea. Who was this unseen entity that was making these decisions?
Yes, I think you did go a long way explaining it, but you should make a section in there. I still think you are downplaying the racist, self-righteous prejudice behind the history, after all, at some point indentured servitude became slavery for black people only, and that relates closely to this. But just spend time editing it, and in good faith we can make sure to make it work. I personally think that a lot of factors went into European-Americans esp southerners having a deep seeded prejudice against Black people. Remember, at some point, the Antebellum culture had a widespread practice of extra-marital affair, and interracial sex with white men taking their black slaves and having children, whom they also would abandon to slavery or some lesser form of it. (Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings is one example) This contrasting sharply with Christian values of fidelity and family and I am convinced there was a psychological dysfunction involved, not just "planters", because it was accepted as normal in the south, and it took the writings of Harriet Jacobs who lived in that environment to really open the doors of that. Now this isn't me whining about bad old white man. This is me illustrating that we need to be candid about what happened, and not downplay what we don't like to acknowledge. The Bible-belt south has been revered for historically being the Christian heart of America. But this kind of activity was morally neutral and hypocritically acceptable, regardless of how many or few slave owners there were in proportion to the population. It was a cultural norm, and if Harriet Jacobs, a slave was able to describe it as she saw it so clearly, then we need to re-evaluate how we see it now. It's not a matter of economics. And in fact, I am against the philosophy that all black-white racial problems in the west are based on economic motivations. -- 68.60.55.162 00:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
apparently some clown whose pornographic name I will not mention wants to entertain himself, so I had to check the reverts to make sure he wasn't a smokescreen to make other less obvious changes to the article. I kind of caught on as to how a vandal will make some obvious ignorance and then some "hero" will change things back... but not to exactly what was in the article before...and we overlook our "hero's" changes because we assume he just did reverts from the vandal's obvious mess.... drowning out the subtle with the obvious. But it looks like we are playing fair in here. Thank you Paul, TMS, and Frank, how can we ban blankey-blank-man? -- 208.254.174.148 04:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
I figured out anonymous Arab person's whole problem with my position on here: "I simply don't see the reason Arabs were singled out while other blatant racists were not." - the comments from the unknown... My response is what the $#&@#^ do you think I have been doing in this page? Heck you don't even realize what you say. Why is one "racist" singled out, but the "other" racists are not? In essence you ADMIT there is a real issue with Arabization, but you just don't like that the focus is on Arabs. Well you know what? Take a number, just about everyone, Jews, Arabs, Asians, higher Caste East Indians have made the complaint you made... It goes something like this
Did you read the whole article? Arabization AND Latinoization AND European Colonialism, AND Eurocentric Jewish rejection of black Jews, AND... The point is, this is a global issue. People in China rioted (with national "moral" outrage no less!) when African students were dating Chinese women in the late 80s (they don't riot when white people do it, or arabs!). East Indian hindu fundamentalism oppresses Dalits to this day. The Papuans on the Java side of New Guinea are treated like crap by the Jakarta government.... I could go on and on. So you being Arab need to get a grip and, (pun intended) stop calling the tea kettle black. This conversation has ended. -- 208.254.174.148 07:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
I think this part should go
"In short, hypodescent and the color line itself were designed to avert servile insurrection at a unique time and place. It was the only time and place with more forced laborers of European descent than of African descent. Virginia was the only New World colony where such a method of permanently splitting potential insurrectionist allies could have worked. No other colony would have benefited from splitting Europeans from Africans by an endogamous barrier. This is because no other colony, whether British, French, Dutch, Spanish, or Portuguese, had such a high fraction (more than half) of European forced laborers. None could benefit by preventing mixing between Europeans and Africans, and so none had to criminalize intermarriage. Consequently, none ever needed to invent or enforce an endogamous color line nor adopt hypodescent."
There awere many other places in the new world where there were more than half the population being African. Brazil, Mexico at some points, Puerto Rico before 1896, Cuba, British Honduras(Belize), Jamaica, Guadeloupe, Martinique, etc... Also, I think the section is more of a discussion on "the History (or the origin) of American bans on interracial marriages. Is there a way to shorten the section, and/or maybe link it to another page? -- 68.60.55.162 00:10, 4 December 2005 (UTC)Zaph
You wrote: I still think you are downplaying the racist, self-righteous prejudice behind the history, after all, at some point indentured servitude became slavery for black people only, and that relates closely to this.
Sorry, I do not see it that way. At your suggestion, I was trying to explain the origins of hypodescent. I was not trying to explain the origins of "racism" nor of slavery. The Chesapeake planters were ruthless men who did whatever it took to rule and become rich. Feel free to characterize this stance as "racist, self-righteous prejudice." But in this they were just like the Spanish hidalgos, the Portuguese bandeirantes, the French in Saint Domingue, and the Muslim Wolofs in Senegal. All of those people can be characterized as having "racist, self-righteous prejudice" because all of them enslaved Bantu-speaking peoples without qualm. But only the Chesapeake planters invented hypodescent. And the invention of hypodescent is the only thing that I was trying to explain.
You wrote: I personally think that a lot of factors went into European-Americans esp southerners having a deep seeded prejudice against Black people. <snip>
All that may be so. But I was not writing about the origins of "prejudice," deep-seated or not. I was writing only about the origins of hypodescent in the 17th century. This was long before slavery spread beyond Dutch New York, British Chesapeake, or Barbadian South Carolina. Long before the Second Great Awakening. Long before Jefferson, and Jacobs, and the Bible belt. Long before the phenomena that you refer to even existed. In the 17th century Chesapeake, intermarriage was common, Africans populated all social classes, including being among the wealthiest slaveowning planters. Northampton County, Virginia, was typical of the early colonial economy. In 1666, about 300 of Virginia’s colonists were of African ancestry. At that time, 11 percent of African colonists and 18 percent of European colonists owned either land or slaves. This comes to a 61 percent ratio of Black-to-White net worth—higher than the United States would ever see again in its history. For comparison, two centuries later in 1860, the county’s Black-to-White property ownership ratio was zero percent. By 1980, the overall U.S. Black-to-White net-worth ratio had risen to 15.4 percent, but by 1995 it had fallen again to 12.6 percent.
You wrote: I am against the philosophy that all black-white racial problems in the west are based on economic motivations.
You lost me. I was not writing about "all black-white racial problems." I was not writing about "black-white racial problems." I was not writing about "racial problems." I was not writing about "problems." At your suggestion, I was writing about the origins of hypodescent. That is all.
You wrote: There were many other places in the new world where there were more than half the population being African....
Now you really lost me. Did you read what I wrote? What made the 17th-century Chesapeake unique was that Africans were a small minority of the forced laborers. 7,000 out of the 9,000 Virginians held in bondage were of European descent and only 2,000 were of Native American and/or African. Please read that sentence again. Of 9000 forced laborers, 7000 were Europeans and only 2000 were Africans! I agree that many other colonies had a larger ratio of Africans to Europeans. In fact, every other forced-labor colony had a larger ratio of Africans to Europeans. Of course. That was precisely my point. It was not that they had too many Africans, It was that they had too few!
You wrote: I think the section is more of a discussion on "the History (or the origin) of American bans on interracial marriages.
Yes it is. That was our goal--to explain the origins of hypodescent. You cannot have hypodescent between two populations unless you have an endogamous color line between them. Countries/cultures lacking an endogamous color line lack the concept of hypodescent. And you cannot have an endogamous color line between populations without criminalizing intermarriage between them. Countries/cultures lacking reluctance to intermarry lack an endogamous color line. (Just imagine trying to convince an Englishman that a Yorkshireman is someone with any Yorkshire ancestry, not matter where he was born, raised, or lives. The only way you could even begin would be forbid Yorkshire exogamy for generations.) Whence sprang the notion of hypodescent? From the presence of a color line. Whence sprang the color line? From the criminalization of intermarriage. Whence sprang the criminalization of intermarriage? From an attempt to prevent servile insurrection. In short, preventing servile insurrection-->criminalized intermarriage-->created a color line-->spawned the notion of hypodescent.
If you would like to read others who have researched the same facts and reached the same conclusions, I recommend: Theodore Allen, The Invention of the White Race, 2 vols. (London: Verso, 1994); Lerone Bennett Jr., The Shaping of Black America (Chicago: Johnson, 1975); T. H. Breen and Stephen Innes, Myne Owne Ground": Race and Freedom on Virginia's Eastern Shore, 1640-1676 (New York: Oxford University, 1980); Marvin Harris, Patterns of Race in the Americas (Westport CT: Greenwood, 1964); Edmund Sears Morgan, American Slavery, American Freedom: The Ordeal of Colonial Virginia (New York: Norton, 1975); Audrey Smedley, Race in North America: Origin and Evolution of a Worldview, 2nd ed. (Boulder: Westview, 1999). Bennett's book is the easiest read.
You wrote: Is there a way to shorten the section, and/or maybe link it to another page?
I don't know about linking it to another page, but we can certainly shorten it or, better yet, eliminate it altogether. Seriously, I really think that you need to give some careful thought to just what you want to convey with this section. The original paragraph was factually inaccurate in its conflation of hypodescent with the one-drop rule. I fixed it. You wanted an account of the origin of hypodescent. I wrote this in one paragraph. You wanted an in-depth analysis of the motives of the planter elite who invented the notion. It did so based on the works of the seven most highly respected historians of the period. If this motivational analysis is too long, we can revert to the short version without the motivation analysis. But, in all honesty, I do not think that is the problem.
It seems to me that you want to read a different motivation into the 17th-century gentry who invented hypodescent than the one that I and a half-dozen other historians have concluded. If so, please feel free to write one that reflects your conclusions. Just bear in mind that I would expect you to use scholarly sources. Peer-reviewed historians would be nice. Well-known Black ones, like Bennett, would be even better. -- FrankWSweet 02:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Hey I'm cool with much of the content you put in, although i disagree with some of it, but honestly I think we should put it into the "one drop rule" section, and maybe summarize greatly the end result in here. I have been trying to shorten some of the other sections as well, so this isn't to conveniently erase what I disagree with, I honestly don't find it to be in opposition to my perspective anyway, just we need to put more ideas into it (which calls for its own section). - Zaph-- 208.254.174.148 12:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
This is where the issue becomes murky. We know there were African and European indentured servants, a period of 7 years. What I cannot figure out is how the first judgement condeming an African servant to perpetual slavery, and punishing a white indentured servant to merely two or three extra years of service was done to prevent more slave insurrections. Why not punish them both equally? The intermarriage ban would have to be designed after an establishment of African based slavery, not the other way around. - Zaph
Lets look at one example, Anthony Johnson who lived in Virginia in 1670. He was an indentured servant, he became free, and like other white indentured servants, he became a landowner and successful. He moved to Maryland, and for some odd reason his property was confiscated in Virgina by the government because he was originally from Africa. Not because he was a former indentured servant, not because he was formerly non Christian, but according to Virginia because he was a "negroe and by consequence an alien." Then and only then did the English system respond by increasing the slave trade. And that slave trade made white indentured servants obsolete for the most part. But the alienation of Africans occurred not because of any fear of slave insurrection. THe next question is, ok were the children of these alienated africans (whom were also of European descent) also alienated? - Zaph
I believe from what I read, and I did read it, that your saying that hyperdescent comes from simply a need to maintain enough of a population to work the fields? My response is, why not just pay the workers regardlesss of their racial background. During the middle of the 17th century, in Virginia, there were black plantation owners. However, there was an attitude that Africans were not worthy of the same respect as whites, in part because they did not have a Christian background in their original cultures (which is hypocritical, as Europeans were not the original christians, nor were their religious beliefs originally Christian), and secondly Africans were not as numerous as the white indentured servants that were the more threatening competition (especially if Black slavery would be established, causing even more of an economic hardship on the poor white working class.). What I believe you may overlook is the abundance of Native American land that was doled out (again by establishing another group of people as sub-human) to these poor whites, and they thus became landowners and had to have slaves as well. You see where I am going? The hyperdescent did not play a role in creating slavery or stopping slave rebellions, it was more of a result of the established order. So here is where we differ: You say "Whence sprang the criminalization of intermarriage? From an attempt to prevent servile insurrection." - Zaph
I say: "Whence sprang the criminalization of intermarriage? From an attempt to maintain a slave based economy AND from a racist perception of Black Africans as an alien person (no longer equitably human). This "alien'ness" becomes spread out as an inherent human or spiritual defect. It came from an attitude that since Europeans were by and large Christianized at the time, and Africans were not, the individual Africans by this association had no moral rights to the same equal treatment even if they converted. Somehow there was an inferred biological or physical ineptitude that was associated with Black Africans, and this sub-humanness was "passed down" to the children, tainting their bloodline whether or not the child was of white parentage or not. In fact, the fear was not of slave insurrections, but of a tainting of the white race and the drawing away of white women to black men. (you might want to review some of these laws at this period as they penalized white women and black men more harshly or singled them out for punishment more often than whitemen and black women) - Zaph
All servants imported and brought into the Country. . . who were not Christians in their native Country. . . shall be accounted and be slaves. All Negro, mulatto and Indian slaves within this dominion. . . shall be held to be real estate. If any slave resists his master. . . correcting such slave, and shall happen to be killed in such correction. . . the master shall be free of all punishment. . . as if such accident never happened. - Virginia General Assembly declaration, 1705 (before any miscognation law was passed) - Zaph
Perhaps the original intention in that part of Virginia is as you say, but lets look at what the actual court documents themselves describe. (This will take the guesswork out of what is considered a credible source).
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/sthtml/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1h314t.html - Court document regarding Anthony Johnson, a Black land-OWNER.
http://www.lovingday.org/map.htm - a link showing the history of interracial bans with a year by year comparison from state to state.
http://www.oah.org/pubs/magazine/family/cruz-berson.html - Miscogenation Laws in the US by Barbara Cruz and Michael Berson
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/
In An American Dilemma (1975), Gunner Myrdal, a Swedish economoist states that miscegenation policy developed because intermarriage was a principal concern in the white man’s order of discrimination. - Zaph
now the question is, why and how does this relate to hyperdescent. Well, I am trying to establish that the anti Black motivations PRECEEDED or at the very least were intertwined the ideas of banning interracial marriage. Hyperdescent was in addition a gender based, and social institution, not an economic one. A white man marrying or cohabiting interracially would experience a different reaction from virginia courts than a white woman. Only five states had anti-miscognation laws by the time of the civil war. Hyperdescent, or the one drop rule, developed after these events were established, not before. I could not find any law in Virginia preceeding 1800 that says "a person of any percentage of negro ancestry is deemed to be black". And i still do not see the economic "logic" that allegedly was the root cause of the one drop rule going that far back in Virginia. - Zaph
I think we also may be mixing two ideas. There is intermarriage and it's laws. Then there is the status of the children, from Nth generation of African ancestry. I'm saying the one-drop rule was established due to racist attitudes, those racist attitudes may or may not have been the result of greed. But they were at least concurrent (I believe the attitudes against Africans were before the first slave insurrections) with the first slavery laws in Virginia. I do not believe that a fear of (predominantly white) slave insurrections at this early time would be the inspiration for white Virginians and Virginian judges calling a child of various degrees of parentage "black". I believe the attitude that black people were tainted aliens of lesser humanness were the motivating factors. - Zaph
Virginia's list of events regarding slavery, black people and intermarriage 1641 - Black people first encounter racism in an institutional form. 1662 - All children born to slave mothers are slaves. And interracial marriage becomes illegal. 1691 - Mixed Children by white women places the white woman into slavery. 1705 - All people from Africa are slaves.
Derrick A. Bell, Race, Racism, and American Law, 2d ed. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1980). Black Historian Gunner Myrdal An American Dilemma: The Negro Problem in Modern Democracy. Pulitizer Prize winning author. -- 208.254.174.148 04:29, 4 December 2005 (
You wrote: What you are saying is that only the Chesapeake planters invented [hypodescent], ok, fine I had originally agreed with that position, but on your request that I investigate the matter further, i found that is not the case. It seems to me that although Africans had succeeded in Virginia in the early time of the settlement, European ignorance and prejudice was present and growing at that time.
You wrote: Why and how did it spread across the country, and why was it upheld legally even after slavery ended? Why for example did the Mormon church establish it as an order from God in their religion?
You wrote: Your response is that [hypodescent] was invented as a continuation of forbidding intermarriage between whites and blacks, and this was established to stop slave rebellions. So ultimately, the goal was to stop slave rebellions.
You wrote: Why not punish them both equally? The intermarriage ban would have to be designed after an establishment of African based slavery, not the other way around.
You wrote: The intermarriage ban would have to be designed after an establishment of African based slavery, not the other way around.
You wrote: Lets look at one example, Anthony Johnson who lived in Virginia in 1670. He was an indentured servant, he became free, and like other white indentured servants, he became a landowner and successful. He moved to Maryland, and for some odd reason his property was confiscated in Virgina by the government because he was originally from Africa. Not because he was a former indentured servant, not because he was formerly non Christian, but according to Virginia because he was a "negroe and by consequence an alien."
:by the creation of a total system of domination, a system that penetrated every corner of Colonial life and made use of every Colonial institution. Nothing was left to chance. The assemblies, the courts, the churches, and the press were thrown into the breach. A massive propaganda campaign confused and demoralized the public, and private vigilante groups supplemented the official campaign of hate and terror. -- Lerone Bennett Jr., The Shaping of Black America (Chicago: Johnson, 1975), 74-75.
You wrote: Then and only then did the English system respond by increasing the slave trade. And that slave trade made white indentured servants obsolete for the most part. But the alienation of Africans occurred not because of any fear of slave insurrection.
You wrote: The next question is, ok were the children of these alienated Africans (whom were also of European descent) also alienated?
You wrote: I believe from what I read, and I did read it, that your saying that [hypodescent] comes from simply a need to maintain enough of a population to work the fields?
and "In short, preventing servile insurrection-->criminalized intermarriage-->created a color line-->spawned the notion of hypodescent." You had made a cause and effect link leading to "servile insurrection"as the ultimate first cause, or ultimate goal. Again you say "It seems to me that you want to read a different motivation into the 17th-century gentry who INVENTED hypodescent than the one that I and a half-dozen other historians have concluded. " (empathsis mine)
You wrote: Why not just pay the workers regardless of their racial background?
I'm going to stop here, this has become a mess, of YOUR doing. I will restart the topic below. I am kind of pissed that you would go through all of this rigamorole, and even though you seem to keep an air of seriousness, you do not show CONSISTENCY in your position! SO I am starting it over.
You wrote: During the middle of the 17th century, in Virginia, there were black plantation owners. However, there was an attitude that Africans were not worthy of the same respect as whites, in part because they did not have a Christian background in their original cultures (which is hypocritical, as Europeans were not the original christians, nor were their religious beliefs originally Christian).
You wrote: Africans were not as numerous as the white indentured servants that were the more threatening competition (especially if Black slavery would be established, causing even more of an economic hardship on the poor white working class.).
You wrote: What I believe you may overlook is the abundance of Native American land that was doled out (again by establishing another group of people as sub-human) to these poor whites, and they thus became landowners and had to have slaves as well.
You wrote: [Hypodescent] did not play a role in creating slavery or stopping slave rebellions…
You wrote: Whence sprang the criminalization of intermarriage? From … a racist perception of Black Africans as an alien person (no longer equitably human).
You wrote: This "alien'ness" becomes spread out as an inherent human or spiritual defect. It came from an attitude that since Europeans were by and large Christianized at the time, and Africans were not, the individual Africans by this association had no moral rights to the same equal treatment even if they converted. Somehow there was an inferred biological or physical ineptitude that was associated with Black Africans, and this sub-humanness was "passed down" to the children, tainting their bloodline whether or not the child was of white parentage or not.
You wrote: you might want to review some of these laws at this period as they penalized white women and black men more harshly or singled them out for punishment more often than whitemen and black women.
You quoted from the 1705 law that first made hypodescent statutory via a 1/8 rule.
You cited: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/sthtml/
You cited: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1h314t.html - Court document regarding Anthony Johnson, a Black land-OWNER.
You cited: http://www.lovingday.org/map.htm - a link showing the history of interracial bans with a year by year comparison from state to state.
You cited: http://www.oah.org/pubs/magazine/family/cruz-berson.html - Miscegenation Laws in the US by Barbara Cruz and Michael Berson
You cited: http://academic.udayton.edu/race/
You wrote: In An American Dilemma (1975), Gunner Myrdal, a Swedish economoist states that miscegenation policy developed because intermarriage was a principal concern in the white man’s order of discrimination.
You wrote: I am trying to establish that the anti Black motivations PRECEEDED ... the ideas of banning interracial marriage.
You wrote: Hyperdescent was in addition a gender based, and social institution, not an economic one.
You wrote: A white man marrying or cohabiting interracially would experience a different reaction from virginia courts than a white woman. Only five states had anti-miscegnation laws by the time of the civil war.
You wrote: I could not find any law in Virginia preceeding 1800 that says "a person of any percentage of negro ancestry is deemed to be black". And i still do not see the economic "logic" that allegedly was the root cause of the one drop rule going that far back in Virginia.
You wrote: I think we also may be mixing two ideas.
You wrote: I'm saying the one-drop rule was established due to racist attitudes, those racist attitudes may or may not have been the result of greed.
You wrote: But they were at least concurrent (I believe the attitudes against Africans were before the first slave insurrections) with the first slavery laws in Virginia.
You wrote: I do not believe that a fear of (predominantly white) slave insurrections at this early time would be the inspiration for white Virginians and Virginian judges calling a child of various degrees of parentage "black".
You wrote: I believe the attitude that black people were tainted aliens of lesser humanness were the motivating factors.
The question: Why was hypodescent (one drop rule) established in the USA? Zaph believes it was motivated out of a white sense of superiority, and a white sense of black inferiority. This was due in part to White aristocratic ambition, greed, and perhaps of associating cultural differences between blacks and whites with human-ness. It would possibly be encouraged with the state that many Africans came to the colony, as slaves, and no examples of aristocratic Africans coming over on their own. Frank had earlier made a connection between hypodescent and slave insurrections, however this link seems to be refuted in the itemized responses he made above. So now, that plus the phrase "off topic" makes it difficult to understand his position. I am convinced that the slave insurrections were not the root cause, as Frank illustrated, because, as Frank pointed out, Africans were a small minority of slaves, and inconsequential to the nature of the overwhelmingly white slave rebellions. Since at this time slavey was indentured servitude of 7 years, there is no reason why singling out africans for lifelong slavery would reduce the misery of the indentured servants whom were white. I doubt that a far-reaching goal of ending white indentured servitude was what the colonial administrators had in mind when they decided to exclude black africans for perpetual slavery. Finally, when you Frank, respond to someone's comments. it's much more sensible to clarify your position. You indicated "off-topic" so many times, if you were seriously seeing it that way, you should merely clarify your position in a clear concise response. It's unereasonable to expect anyone to stay on topic (you yourself seemed to get off your own position) with itemized, line by line rebuttals. Save that kind of thing for the newsgroups.
Here are two sentances Frank made.
Then later you say that I reverted again to conflating hypodescent (the specific notion that you are Black even if you have less than half African ancestry) with the one-drop rule!
Frank, i think the obvious quesiton is, where does the line between the first end, and the second begin. Why don't you discuss where and how the hypodescent evolved into the one drop rule. For me, I honestly think you are spending too much energy trying to narrowly limit the scope and relevance of hypodescent in the broader context of being black. The one drop rule would take generations (at least three, maybe more... about 75-100 years) to even have examples from the first intermarriages in Chesapeake. So where we are at, seriously is how the one-drop rule (which is a form of hypodescent) came to play (and I did consistently use 18th and 19th century examples). You seemed to nitpick at the difference between the two, ok fine, I respected that, but now you are trying to convince that the origin of the hypodescent was "NOT" a racist origin, but purely a social and economic one. Funny you should mention the Vedda history in the Hindu religion, because I had WANTED to incorporate that into the article a few months back, but I could not link that to the racism in Europe, except that I have a theory that it migrated via the middle east through Arab slave trading (and as you can see further above I am still arguing with someone who is offended by that).
So you are not aware of the scope of where I am coming from. Why don't you just make the section. However I will not let the racist attitude and motivation be downplayed in this article as to the origin of the one drop rule and hypodescent in general in the USA. We know that racism had a role in it.
Now, I seriously did not go past half of the items in the list. I will not read and respond to discussions that way in WIkipedia indefinitely, otherwise each section will be overly confused.
(removed orginal comment but leaving zaph's self-self dialogue)
Awww that is so cheezy. I don't even get to see her comments in this discussion and now you all want to silence her. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 18:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Yea it looks like they are trying the nuclear options this week! -- Zaphnathpaaneah 10:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Specifically, how does its goal differ from that of the African American aricle? At first glance, the difference seems to be that the present article is permeated with moral judgement towards ideological concerns rather than NPOV. But a deeper reading suggests that this article may have been originally intended to be about the Pan-African notion of "Blackness" as a global self-identity associated with colonialism and the post-1500 African Diaspora, while the African-American article is focussed on the U.S. ethnicity.
Whatever its goal, its has serious problems of factual inaccuracy and logical fallacy. An example of factual inaccuracy (among many) is the claim that the very dark skin tone of the Bantu-speaking peoples is the "default human type as far back as the human species is known to exist." In fact, the oldest known genetic populations of our species are the light-skinned Khoisan and Ethiopians. [2] An example of logical fallacy (again among many) is the claim that many "black people in the west ... [like Brazilians] do not consider themselves to be black." Just imagine yourself reading that "many who are actually Republicans do not consider themselves to be Republicans but register as Democrats instead." You see the problem? Either Blackness (in the sense meant by the article) is inherent or it is ascribed. You cannot have it both ways in the same sentence.
Nevertheless, the many innaccuracies and logical fallacies would be relatively easy to clean up.
The deeper problem is defining just what the article is supposed to be about. If it is about the physical anthropology and genetics of the thousands of diverse populations in sub-Saharan Africa and how a small band from one of those populations (mtDNA haplotype L3) crossed the Straits of Bab-el-Mandeb to colonize the planet, then the ideological definitions of Blackness are irrelevant, since the ideology of Pan-Africanism did not exist 70 millennia ago. On the other hand, if the article is about the ideology of pan-Africanism (the ethnic and cultural commonalities among dark-skinned people all over the world—especially their mistreatment and marginalization by Western culture), then the genetic and phylogeography stuff is irrelevant.
So, can anyone tell me (in 100 words or less <grin>) what is the goal of this article?
Oh, yes. I just started contributing to Wikipedia a few days ago and there is something else that I do not understand. Just what does it mean when an article is "tagged"? Who tags articles and why? -- FrankWSweet 17:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
This is in response to: "I want to see how the article changes without any black person moderating it for a while. I am doing my own experiment. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 21:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)"
I find it deeply offensive that someone should publicly attribute a "racial" membership to me, knowing nothing about me. There is undoubtedly a way of lodging a formal complaint to whatever governing body is responsible for Wikipedia. I shall find it. -- FrankWSweet 03:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is your best access to that governing body http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RPA IF you are going to formally complain to Wikipedia because I assumed you were of some particular race, knock yourself out. I have a right to think that way and further, if just the mere use of a racial membership offends you, then you are really going overboard. IN fact, now that I recall, that comment had nothing to do with you. I seriously want to see where the article goes without any of the black contributors for a period of time (like a week or two). It seems to me that much of the controversy in here, are from people who are not black. I am left with the impression that Wikipedia contributiors think that I (and other black contributors) have a POV habit, yet I see the same lack of consistency in the "Caucasoid" and "White People" articles (Recall the capital W and B issue) So let me help you logde your formal complaint, in fact I will lodge a complaint and refer to you as the offended person, to make it easier for you to get to this governing body. Because it seems to me that offense you indicate is more like a smokescreen for ultimately censoring me from contributing. I want to see if the Wikipedia governing body that you would refer me to would penalize me in some way for attributing a racial membership (either inadvertently or not) to you. Who knows, with luck, maybe they will ban me for...what... I suppose this is slander of some kind? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 10:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
P.S. if it offends you deeply, I imagine you can never be one to say that "race doesn't really matter to me". I get publicly attributed all the time. I really don't care. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 10:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
There you go Frank http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Remove_personal_attacks#WHere_is_the_Wikipedia_governing_body.3F -- Zaphnathpaaneah 10:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC) (the racial attributator)
This article persistently uses the word "dalit" (i.e. the so-called "untouchables" in India) as though it were a racial term. As the article Dalit makes clear, the term does not describe a race. The most influential dalit in Indian history B. R. Ambedkar would not, I think, be considered to be "black" by most people (though of course it's impossible to say for certain what 'most people' would say given that "black" is not a clearly defined term) [4]. It's true that the some individuals within the modern dalit movement have appropriated the history of Aryan invasion theory and of race-based civil rights protest to position themselves in racial terms, something that's partly assisted by the Indian legal concept of scheduled tribes. However, it is surely inappropriate to refer to "dalits" as though they are unproblematically a race and that that "race" can inproblematically be deemed as black. As the discussion above indicates we need to be clearer about the ambiguity and problematic nature of this terminology. Paul B 12:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
This is all based on a false assumption that "blackness" is defined in the same scope as "Whiteness". Despite your best intentions of neutrality, you are still working from a "white" standard and trying to view blackness from that standard. Dalits, are known in Veddoid scriptures as black, they are considerd black by the upper castes, and have been frequently referred with the term "black". I certainly agree that black is not a clearly defined term, and part of the reason that I am very interested in the article is clarify more. Certainly, blackness is not exclusive to those of African, and certainly not strictly West African descent. In regards to people of India read:
Also, bear in mind that the word "Dalit" wasn't even used as a word until the 20th Century. Next understand that the issue here is not about race. I have tried to avoid using "race" in this article. As I understand the concept of race, there is a heavy "DNA" based element, and I clearly indicated that black people do not fit into any specific DNA classification (precisely, that DNA should not be used as the primary or sole standard for defining black people or black identity). So if you on the one hand say that "blackness is not a race, because race does not exist" it's contradictory to say that "dalits" are not black, as you cannot distinguish the racial misunderstanding from the accurate collective world identity. I certainly see unique cultural, social, and historical parallels and characteristics with dalits (considered an offensive word by the way) and black africans -- Zaphnathpaaneah 07:31, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I Think what really catches my attention is that people want to steer away from "race" in general, and specifically rather not identify asians in a racial context. However, often the same people will look at blackness from a racial context and then 'rightfully' explain that asians should not be included no matter what their experiences or phenotype. That's not a good way to handle this article. Black is an identity that varies in different parts of the world. The two main components of this identity seem to be "dark skin" and "Equatorial origins". One reason why I want black contributors to hold off on contributing is because I want to see ALL of the best objections and for us to collaborate on discussing them en masse instead of dealing with one at a time for the next 2 years. --
Zaphnathpaaneah
07:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay guys, I have finished studying this entire article, the comparable article White (people), and the non-archived discussions of this article. For what it is worth, here are my thoughts.
Let me first make clear that I have no stake or interest in this article per se. I was asked by A.D. Powell (an essayist and book author whose work my company has published) to correct a few factual errors in a few Wikipedia articles regarding the timing of certain historical events. Upon correcting an error in this article I was foolishly dragged into explaining the motives of long-dead legislators, a topic irrelevant to this article. I regret this involvement. I am perfectly happy to walk away and leave this article as it is. Since I am here, however, a sense of duty compels me of offer suggestions for trying to salvage it, So, here goes.
The article is presently a joke at best, and a disorganized collage of factual inaccuracies and logical inconsistencies at worst. Judging by the discussion record, this disaster seems to be due to at least one individual who apparently has an unshakeable POV agenda but dodges all efforts to find out what it is. I have concluded that the article cannot be fixed in situ because its organizational flaws are inherent, even to lacking a defined topic.
Its title implies that the article will inform about how, when, where, and why certain populations around the world have come to be called "Black," and by whom. I submit that an intellectually honest effort to do this would start with the last point, "by whom."
Consider three alternative answers to the "by whom" question: themselves, Americans, and Europeans. Most of the peoples mentioned in the article as it stands do not consider themselves "Black" nor are they considered so by their neighboring populations. And yet, Americans tend to see many of these same people as Black, either because (1) they descend partially from the Bantu-speaking populations who were caught up in the transatlantic slave trade (Brazilians, Puerto Ricans) or (2) because they "look Black" to American eyes (Dalits, Melanesians, Australian Aborigines). Finally, the descendants of Europeans who colonized the globe starting in the 15th century, especially of the 19th-century British Empire, lumped many non-European populations under the term "coloured," a concept that overlaps with the American definition but includes some (Turks. Irish) who most Americans consider White, and excludes others (European-looking biracials) who most Americans see as Black.
Rather than dealing with this definitional problem (just who is it that labels any specific population "Black" and why), the article adopts an intellectually indefensible grossly Eurocentric viewpoint. It is Eurocentric because its foundation assumption is that Europeans are White and everyone else is Black. In other words, it purports to explain why all non-Europeans are deep down the same sort of thing. It is grossly so because it includes every conceivable non-European population under its Eurocentric umbrella by using the most puerile rationalizations. Melanesians and Dalits with no shred of recent African ancestry are Black, despite their denial, because they "look Black" to an unspecified someone. Those Puerto Ricans and Brazilians who do not "look Black" to anyone are also Black, despite their denial, because they acknowledge partial African ancestry. And millions of White-looking African Americans with no detectable African genetic admixture are also Black because they self-identify thus. Only Eurocentric racialist Americans would even understand these arguments. Only singularly uninformed Eurocentric racialist Americans could advocate them.
If the goal of the article is to support the extreme Eurocentric racialist ideological POV common to both U.S. White supremacists and U.S. Black separatists, then it violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. If its goal is to inform everyone (even people outside the United States) about how, when, where, and why certain populations around the world have come to be called "Black," and by whom, I suggest that it must be trashed and re-written from scratch, from a consensus outline, using consensus definitions.
It is possible that some existing text could be salvaged, as PedanticPrick suggests. But I would like to nail down an outline before even considering this.
Here is a proposed list of topics for a new outline. They are in no particular order.
---Proposed Outline--- Goal: To inform the reader how, when, where, and why certain populations around the world have come to be called "Black," and by whom.
One, it is way to one sided. The Afrocentric perception has a right o be presented, but it has to be defined as an opinion, and Afroocentric. The other sides have to be given as well I will add links to other perceptions out of Africana as well. Finally, i took out a bunch of subtopics that deserve their own page. They should not be in a main page that generally defines a people. I tried to keep the Eurocentric beleifs in and contreast them to Mainstream history and science perceptions. But I had to edirt some claims that were given as fact instead of opinion. And no, the Aeta of the Philippines did not Embrace blackness, the Spanish imposed the term on them. They do not usually call themselves Negrito either. other Philipinos do.
The comment "Archeology has shown that indigenous populations with Aborigine like features were the first to migrate to the Americas and their features are still seen in certain populations of Native Americans like the Fuegueans of Chile, and the indigenous groups around Veracruz" needs clarification. For one, how has archeology shown this? Where are the sources? What are these features? Finally, Veracruz (in Mexico) was once the major port that received African slaves in New Spain (present-day Mexico and Central America), and their descendants are still around, which could partially explain the supposed "Aboriginal" features---I must admit though that this term needs to be clarified by the author. I assume that the author refers to medium and dark brown skin tones, among other traits. Kemet 10 December 2005.
Most of the changes that I just made were stylistic, spelling, and tightening the prose a bit. I also added a couple of sentences to correct a misunderstanding regarding the world-unique Nordic skin-tone adaptation. My main change was to remove the following:
Archeology has shown that indigenous populations with Aborigine-like features were the first to migrate to the Americas and their features are still seen in certain populations of Native Americans like the Fuegueans of Chile, and the indigenous groups around Veracruz.
It would be good to have a source for this, since "Aborigine-like features" seems hard to define. My concern is that, if it is defined in terms of craniofacial anthropometry, then it may be worth mentioning, but the DNA studies connecting Amerinds to Mongolians are a lot more persuasive. -- FrankWSweet 17:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I also removed, "and those that resemble our earliest relatives the closest in craniofacial measurements, Aborigines of Australia." The apparent similarity between Aborigines and H. erectus has been shot down. For one thing, Aborigines of 50kya looked like Indonesians. What you see is just a family resemblance that evolved over 50ky and spread over a continent. -- FrankWSweet 18:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
"A brief history of the concept of Blackness" is not going to work. I do not know what the agenda is here, but it seems evident that someone is more interested in making "blackness" as foriegn to the human experience as possible. Either that or the title of that section should be changed to "how Europeans came to describe darker skinned people". It's obvious that's what the section is describing.-- Zaphnathpaaneah 12:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The statement in the following section: "As Eurocentrism has weakened, many populations have sought to overcome the stigmas imposed by centuries of colonialism. One approach, Afrocentrism has sought to take the stigmas and spin them into a positive light."... this implies that there is an inherent natural stigma to being looked at as black. Look at the white people article, notice how parts of the article descibe who gets the priviledge of being included as white as if it's an inherent good quality to appropriate. While here, it seems already, people want to rewrite this article with the attitude of "who has the stigma of being labeled as black". No matter how we try to spin, or counter-spin this issue, the naked truth still comes out. Being black is being portrayed as a liability (stigma) and white is being portrayed as a virtue.
next "As with Eurocentrism before, some of the peoples categorized have embraced this foreign concept and others have not. We must clearly delineate that all those that call themselves Black do not subscribe to a Global Black sense of identity, and some just call themselves Black in a local ethnic sense." We don't know how foreign the concept is throughout history. The writer assumes that no one on earth looked at themselves as "black". Amazing. The issue of a global black sense of identity is moot because most people throughout the world did not have a global concept. Mostly regional. Jewish people for example, after being seperated in antiquity became unaware of the existence of other Jewish people throughout the world. That statement that "just call themselves black in a local ethnic sense." does little more than try to "reassure" the unfamiliar reader that "don't worry, those groyups in Asia didn't really think they were black." Let's stop that kind of attitude. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 12:44, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
With all this commentary about Eurocentrism in the Black People article, I find it amazing that the word is not used anywhere in the white people article. It is certainly non-neutral POV to characterize... no categorize... no compartmentalize blackness as not much more than a Eurocentric invention. Over the next couple of weeks I am going to have various readers of different backgrounds read this article and I am going to ask these questions.
I am going to be talking to people from India, Philippines, the Middle East and various other places. AFter that I will post some of their anonymous responses in here and where appropriate i WILL be making edits. I can already see some of the changes are going into a rediculous realm, but thats ok. I want the people I question to see this and they will be able to point out these things. We aren't going to have 'they are called black but' every other sentance in the article. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 13:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Finally, it seems that the current writer is trying to define blackness solely within a concept of "Eurocentrism" and "Afrocentrism". Not to sound offensive, but this view is ignorant of the way black people view themeslves. It is irrational to think that darker skinned people did not view themselves as "dark skinned" before EUropeans arrived to "dictate" this obvious fact to them. The fact that Europeans imposed their own latin based words on them "negro, negrito, etc" has nothing to do with the fact that an Aeta filipino can see for him or herself that their skin is dark brown. So I'm sure when they saw the European, or Chinese, they were aware of how "light" or "white" skinned they were in relation to themselves. So the idea that "blackness" is a Eurocentric concept is misguided. One very good example is that of the man named "York" who traveled with Lewis and Clark. He was accepted and idealized by some of the Native American because of his black skin, and curly hair. This was due to their cultural understanding of blackskin as a form of strength and virtue and certainly not a stigma. That indicates that the Native Americans had a clear concept of blackness that was not foreign to them or imposed on them by Europeans. As far as Asia goes, blackness has not been invariably created by Eurocentrism. I think you guys want to take another look at that and just take those kind of statements out. Hinduism, describing the black caste was not a Eurocentric religion. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 13:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Yea you guys shortened the article greatly and that would be good except you totally beat the black out of the article. The bible "supposedly" describes people as black "according to centrists"? What the heck is that??? The bible describes black people. Period. No additivees or preservatives. "kushimm" in hebrew means "black" and it means "beautiful". Cut and dry. See, all this "supposedly" and "according to centrists" stuff, thats the kind of manipulation I do not find acceptable in here, cut it out! -- Zaphnathpaaneah 13:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Yea it really looks like now the writers wants the reader to view blackness as nothing more than a liability and stigma from Euocentricism. Now I suppose these contributors, being a part of this experience have a good understanding of it. After all, we are using references and resources strictly from Europeans or... are we going to actually do some real insight into this article? And if you don't like my attitude, thats fine. Imagine if I went into the White People article and totally rewrote it as nothing more than a Eurocentric tool to alienate and control people of color (as that's how the term white seemed to be overwhelmingly used... in contrast to the "others" who do not have the rights and "virtues" of Euroepean white identity). Shall we be consistent and revolutionalize the White people article? Ignoring all of the variation and subtleties within it? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 13:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The comment "Archeology has shown that indigenous populations with Aborigine like features were the first to migrate to the Americas and their features are still seen in certain populations of Native Americans like the Fueguians of Chile, and the indigenous groups around Veracruz" needs clarification. For one, how has archeology shown this? Where are the sources? What are these features?
http://www.andaman.org/book/chapter53/luzia/luzia.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/430944.stm
Also read ‘Luzia is not Alone’ by Walter Neves. Finally consider this picture of a Yamana native of Tierra del Fuego http://www.limbos.org/sur/yama/yaman11.jpg
Finally, Veracruz (in Mexico) was once the major port that received African slaves in New Spain (present-day Mexico and Central America), and their descendants are still around, which could partially explain the supposed "Aboriginal" features---I must admit though that this term needs to be clarified by the author. I assume that the author refers to medium and dark brown skin tones, among other traits.
The Natives around the Veracruz area, not the admixed population of Afro-Indigenous people in the proximity I was referring to are those mentioned in this article: http://www.thehallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=73
"A brief history of the concept of Blackness" is not going to work. I do not know what the agenda is here, but it seems evident that someone is more interested in making "blackness" as foreign to the human experience as possible.
Blackness along with Whiteness are historically modern concepts. Considering the span of human history, they are pretty foreign. Similar concepts of labeling have occured before, aethiops, melano-gaetulians, etc. But these were more descriptive terms than a belief that all dark skinned people were a race and all light skinned Europeans were another. It was a Eurocentric concept.
First of all, I am not going to respond to every itemized response. i already indicated that to a previous poster. If you want to refute everything I say as a matter of procedure, do it as one response and then I can address them. Also, it's very unwieldly to respond in this manner, especially since a sizeable portion of the items are incorrectly formatted (spaces in the front i believe)... and yet again, everytime I post, Wikipedia has server problems, so I will pick and choose with the itemizations, because it becomes apparent at that point that the goal is not for you to learn or to understand, but to merely argue and attempt to bog the whole process down in endless debate. So that being said, first of all, every "race" in the world, and Latinos, Asians, Africans, and Pacific Islanders and probably a host of other terms and concepts are also historically modern. That is irrelevant. That does not minimize the significance to THOSE people. This article is not about trying to prove how useless or irrelevant the concept of blackness is in the opinions of non-black individuals. That is not our job here. You seem preoccupied with that. And I will venture an opinion. What is your goal? To have the readers walk away with the notion that blackness is not really about anything, because of "reasons" you feel trump the experiences the people feel? I have told you that this article is not about attributing a "racial" (whether genetic or what) label to blackness. From my perspective it seems you are hell bent on creating an impression that the experiences of darker skinned people (who at various times have been called or call themselves as Black) are irrelevant. It also seems to me that you want to navigate the definition of blackness as far as possible away from humanity. It's not going to work. In history there have been black people, currently there are black people, and as much as it may annoy you, there is a worldwide black consciousness that has been gaining momentum since at least the early 1960s. So I will go ahead and be picky and answer what i feel is convenient for me to answer among the long list of items below, because I am really tired of repeating myself and getting responses that try to bypass the obvious. The name of the article is "BLACK PEOPLE" not "I don't like the concept of black people. let me explain why it shouldn't be used anymore"
Either that or the title of that section should be changed to "how Europeans came to describe darker skinned people". It's obvious that's what the section is describing.—
That would work as well.
The statement in the following section: "As Eurocentrism has weakened, many populations have sought to overcome the stigmas imposed by centuries of colonialism. One approach, Afrocentrism has sought to take the stigmas and spin them into a positive light."... this implies that there is an inherent natural stigma to being looked at as black.
Incorrect. There is no inherent stigma to being dark-skinned, but historically the concept of black did carry a negative stigma. It is only with time that ethnicities that adopted this name have been changing that imposed stigma.
Look at the white people article, notice how parts of the article describe who gets the privilege of being included as white as if it's an inherent good quality to appropriate.
I haven’t looked at the White people article yet. But it is true that Colonialism imposed the White and Black paradigms, so they would make themselves look better.
Being black is being portrayed as a liability (stigma) and white is being portrayed as a virtue.
Incorrect. We are just pointing out how these terms were used historically. Blackness as an identity per se has no negative or positive connotations different than any other ethnicity.
We don't know how foreign the concept is throughout history. The writer assumes that no one on earth looked at themselves as "black". Amazing.
No historical records indicate such thing. Dark skinned yes. Members of a Black race, not in any written historical records.
I gave examples and you refute them... lol "Aethoipid, Kushite..."? This is the classical Eurocentric debate. You say one thing, i refute it with examples. You try to qualify the examples, then later on rely on short term memory loss... This discussion is absurd now.
The issue of a global black sense of identity is moot because most people throughout the world did not have a global concept. Mostly regional.
And with the advent of modern technology, these people are aware of other black communities, but that does not mean they identify with them as a global group.
Jewish people for example, after being separated in antiquity became unaware of the existence of other Jewish people throughout the world. That statement that "just call themselves black in a local ethnic sense." does little more than try to "reassure" the unfamiliar reader that "don't worry, those groups in Asia didn't really think they were black." Let's stop that kind of attitude. –
Jewish people never questioned others that showed different features but similar practices. That is obvious in their embrace of the Beta Israel among others. That is because their claim is ethno-cultural, not just a phenotype/race concept
On race: http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001078/
With all this commentary about Eurocentrism in the Black People article, I find it amazing that the word is not used anywhere in the white people article. It is certainly non-neutral POV to characterize... no categorize... no compartmentalize blackness as not much more than a Eurocentric invention.
Like I said, I have not touched the White people article yet. The point of view is neutral. What is said in other articles is irrelevant as I am working on editing this one right now not the other one.
Over the next couple of weeks I am going to have various readers of different backgrounds read this article and I am going to ask these questions.
My opinion on your questions as follows.
Which is very true. Partly because so much space has been used in trying to claim all people in the world Black instead of focusing on those people who auto describe themselves as Black.
Leading Question. Just ask them what they think and what is missing as far as describing THEM, not who else they think also is black.
Leading question again. Let them tell you their feelings without you trying to suggest possible negativity. I am going to be talking to people from India, Philippines, the Middle East and various other places. After that I will post some of their anonymous responses in here and where appropriate I WILL be making edits. We will be waiting for their comments and we will also ask people from these areas (I already have) what they think, and edit your edits if necessary.
I can already see some of the changes are going into a rediculous realm, but thats ok. I want the people I question to see this and they will be able to point out these things. We aren't going to have 'they are called black but' every other sentance in the article
It’s quite simple, either we only allow those who auto define themselves as Black to write of their experience in THEIR region and not try to claim other people as Black without a true confirmation that those people consider themselves Black, or we show that Afrocentric beliefs do exist, but that they are but one trend of thought, and not one supported by most Anthropologists, geneticists, linguists, etc.
Finally, it seems that the current writer is trying to define blackness solely within a concept of "Eurocentrism" and "Afrocentrism". Not to sound offensive, but this view is ignorant of the way black people view themselves.
I am not trying to define people within the Eurocentric and Afrocentric paradigms. But those were the parameters imposed before I got here, so I kept those claims in, but made sure the reader knew where those beliefs were coming from.
It is irrational to think that darker skinned people did not view themselves as "dark skinned" before Europeans arrived to "dictate" this obvious fact to them.
Black is not dark-skinned, and all peoples claimed as Black are not even dark-skinned.
The fact that Europeans imposed their own Latin based words on them "negro, negrito, etc" has nothing to do with the fact that an Aeta filipino can see for him or herself that their skin is dark brown.
Sure they can. And that does not mean they saw themselves As Black, Little Black or lost African tribes.
So I'm sure when they saw the European, or Chinese, they were aware of how "light" or "white" skinned they were in relation to themselves. So the idea that "blackness" is a Eurocentric concept is misguided.
Strawman. The first Malaysians were brown skinned themselves. Degree of shade may have not been as differentiating as phenotypes such as hair, eye shape, nose shape etc.
One very good example is that of the man named "York" who traveled with Lewis and Clark. He was accepted and idealized by some of the Native American because of his black skin, and curly hair. This was due to their cultural understanding of blackskin as a form of strength and virtue and certainly not a stigma. Afrocentric mythology. Africans meshed in with Indigenous cultures like Europeans did. Some were admired for their looks others weren’t. Only Eurocentric and Afrocentric claims later tried to claim this as evidence of earlier contact.
Hinduism, describing the black caste was not a Eurocentric religion. –
Nor do I claim racism is unique to Europeans, but they were the ones who expanded it to a global level. And Aryan impositions are still impositions. Furthermore I’m not sure that there was a claim that the Dravidians were a black people, but there was discrimination and their dark skin was used for identification. Could you list the Bhagavad- Gita or Vedas quotes pertinent?
The bible "supposedly" describes people as black "according to centrists"? What the heck is that??? The bible describes black people. Period. No additivees or preservatives. "kushimm" in hebrew means "black" and it means "beautiful". Cut and dry.
Chuwm or shachor meant black in Hebrew. Chuwm also mean black ones. Shachar meant turns black. Beautiful in Hebrew was hadar, yaphah, shepherd, Cush is borrowed from the time of Egypt to refer to Ethiopians, Cushites. You don’t see it used except in that context as referring to the people of the Ethiopian area. The Bible refers to that one group, not all people of the bible as Cushites. If they were being called the Black ones, Why not use a common usage Hebrew word and instead adopt the native word Cush used by the Cushites themselves?
That's silly. Midian is not in the Ethiopian area, yet Moses was married to Tzipporah, the Kushite. (Moses only had one wife, not two.)
Imagine if I went into the White People article and totally rewrote it as nothing more than a Eurocentric tool to alienate and control people of color (as that's how the term white seemed to be overwhelmingly used... in contrast to the "others" who do not have the rights and "virtues" of Euroepean white identity). Shall we be consistent and revolutionalize the White people article?
But of course. I am all for it.
We want to be consistent. -- 208.254.174.148 04:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
Lets see what happens... posting now -- 208.254.174.148 05:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Now here is the deal. I posted the article (and changed solely the terms Black to White where required, and the descriptions obviously where it applied). I made about four changes and about 96% of the section is letter by letter identical. I demand that you all observe consistency and for the next few days, whatever your philosophical point of view you pose HERE, post it THERE and whatever reasons you have to maintain the strength of your position HERE (in that section), use it THERE as well. Do not have me come back here next week and see that the section has been removed or grossly modified in the White people article, but remain unaltered in the Black people article. Since the section applies to both, there should be ABSOLUTELY NO DISCREPANCIES. i SHOULD NOT SEE in the white people discussion, a compromise that allows the white people article to be "preserved" because I will make a prediction. I predict that other writers of the White people article will find the prominence (at the near top of the article) to be inappropriate, the description to be overly heavy handed, and the logic to be "out of step with the experiences and general consensus that white people have today". (If I am wrong, I am fine with that as well, as I will use either stance to my advantage.). What I will not accept is somehow there is "good reason" to omit that section from the White people article, but to have it remain in the Black people article. But I seriously do not expect the writers of the white people article to allow that section to remain. We will see. Believe it or not this is part of my own research. It seems that non-blacks have a vested interest in seeing how black people perceive themselves and the world, and they want to have a hand in controlling it. It's similar to a white person having issue with a black person marrying an asian or east indian. I really want you guys to do your worst, you know, try to make 'blackness' as meaningless and irrelevant as you can. Use your best "logic" to steer the reader into viewing blackness as a concept that bears little value. Because honestly, anyone reading this will see it that way. It's almost like the article is saying that black people should disband and renounce their identity.... certainly the "non-African" people should avoid it like the plague! -- 208.254.174.148 05:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC) Zaph
Added paragraph to clarify that in order to be accepted as White in the Eurocentric/Afrocentric view, one must be of mostly European ancestry AND "look White" AND self-identify as White. But to be accepted as Black in the Eurocentric/Afrocentric view, one must be of some African ancestry OR "look Black" OR self-identify as Black. A Venn diagram might help to get the point across. -- FrankWSweet 15:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I do not think we should be naive and pretend that the only black people in the world are the "sub saharans". A Venn diagram still requires that the scope of the three source identities be agreed upon. Since some will put the Ancient Egyptians in the "Caucasian" category, or the "Aeta" in as the Sinoid category, it's still not going to show an accurate group. The problem is none of the Wikipedia contributors can accept or at least seriously consider that the Southern Eurasian supergroup is a predominantly contigious historical group. In addition, it's really disingenious to make a disclaimer for every non-Equatorial African group that is or has been identified as black. Now we have the Khoi being used as an example of a NON black group! -- 208.254.174.148 08:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
This is Zaph. I am making sure to begin my editing (as promised) in a way that will minimize much POV response. I must admit the article is better than I expected, although there is certainly too much effort to disclaim blackness in Asia. This seems to require a great amount of discussion to refute.
I will deal with the easiest issues first and we will work our way up.
DNA - I do not agree with the people who classify who is or who is not black, based on DNA. Why? because the DNA markers that are used are not the markers that determine phenotype. If it cannot be concluded that the chosen DNA markers are concurrent with phenotype, then its impossible to determine if the progenators were originally "black" or not. They may be good INDICATORS, but it seems that we assume that the "region" of origin of these progenators must be the indicator of their original race. For example, one could assume that the DNA indicator of a particular blood type, came from a mutation or progenator who originally looked like a "black" person, or a "white" person.
Out of Africa vs lightskinned KhoiSan - Apparently someone is presenting the notion that the original inhabitents of Africa are middle complexioned Khoisan. Khoi people of South Africa are also dark skinned wooly haired people, and despite being different in appearance from other Africans. I do not understand why as a habit, people see a group of people who range in complexion or phenotype, and they only recognize those who most closely resemble Europeans as "the legitimate" variety. This once again, reinforces a very narrow stereotype of what is considered "black".
This is one of the root cause of the distortion of blackness in this article, and needs to be addressed. I do not believe that Khoi are "not Black". And again, the concept of excluding the more "African" Khoi as admixture, while keeping the furthermost lightskinned khoi as "legitimate" is not an objective way to discuss this issue. -- 208.254.174.148 06:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC) - Zaph. (once again unable to maintain his login due to server issues!!!)
I believe a big problem with this is that we may have overlooked something. Earlier in the year, we discussed the problem of capitalizing "black" when referring to the group. IT seems that many people (non black especially) do not see blackness as anything more than a literal skin color. While many Black people see blackness as a cultural identity similar to being "arab" or "kurdish" or "Jewish". I hear a lot of disclaimer regarding black Asians which I think is not accurate. There are black asians, thats just how it is. Their skin is dark and this isn't about them being "jet black" or not. If a medium toned Italian is seriously considered to be white, then it's absurd to exclude medium toned asians from being black. In fact, the question arises, why would or should medium-toned people outside of Equatorial Africa be viewed as white anyway? -- 208.254.174.148 08:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I think what we need to so is to understand the difference between identifying somoene as a black person (someone with black skin), and a Black person (someone who self identifies as black regardless of their skin color). At this point, some may disagree, but this is the part where those who disagree should, and need to actually talk to black people and find out. You should not unilaterally dictate what Black identity should and should not be. I have grown up in a Black family very conscious of Black identity as something that transcends skin color. And in fact, because of that I have always viewed Black people as being much more diverse and tolerant culturally than whites. I know that there are Asians who do not view blackness with any subliminal stigma and who proudly consider themselves to be black (not hip-hop). Now the argument against this is to me absurd and disrespectful. It's absurd to discourage the kind of inclusiveness in the Black identity just because it started out as a "byproduct" of white exclusion and racism. It's disrespectful to continue to encourage a blind parallel to white identity, by discouraging people of lighter complexions from self identifying as black. We are entering an age where Eurocentricisty is expanding to identify various unrelated people as "white" or "Caucasoid". These various people do not see in their identity anything white, other than an attempt to gain economic mobility in the West, and a naive expectation of gaining more respect from Indo-European Americans because of it. -- 208.254.174.148 08:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Pedantic. I have NEVER complained about white people excluding everyone who is not white. I pointed it out as a matter of a hypocritical notion of "equality". And you know, after the whole DeeCeeVoice RFC mess, i can honestly say, that kind of commentary (although it may be light hearted) would probably activate her... What I do not like, when expanding whiteness to "include" everyone, is that it is inclusive only in areas where Black people are involved. Its only inclusive as a political counter weight to the "core white sensibilities" whether it's a perceived statistical annhilation over time, or a feared political shift in people of color. Whiteness is a divide and conquer tactic in the Middle East, the USA, and elsewhere. When Jews became so successful they became "White". When arabs became a strong political force in the world, they also became white. Italians, Greeks, etc... all got added in when they could no longer be kept out of the economic pie. Its a trade off. Whiteness is given as a social perk, and you are supposed to then seperate yourself in some fundamental way from the remaining non whites, especially black people. Whiteness now includes Egyptians so that Ancient Egypt is no longer academically viewed as a Black civilization. It now includes East Indians so all of the black east indians are erased from statistical existence. It will soon include Latinos as to erase the Black brazilians and caribbean islanders... Whiteness is a social order, not some kind of optional group to be a part of. Whiteness was used as a social order in the Rwanda massacre. The "whiter" Tutsi were supported by the British and French to oversee the counties and they oppressed at times the "blacker" Hutu. The Hutu then over reacted and when their president died, went nuts. It's a dysfunctional social order as far as I am concerned. Slavs and now central Asians are going to be added in. Why not drop the whole "white" thing all together. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:42, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Addressing the Black experience in Asia, it's not sufficient to rely on "Africa" as the litmus. I do not think anyone in here is really aware of how a black asian sees the world. I do not see the white identity beind disconstructed in such a irreverent way, even though whiteness is more of a social order and does not seriously reflect an ethnic identity. I cannot conceive of a White cultural or social identity that exists as more than a social construct to reinforce a sense of superiority and seperation, especially from Black people. For many, white identity is synonymous with and considered to be a means to economic prosperity. And since this identity is excluded from African Americans and other Black people who openly identify themselves as such, it's important to respect the self-identity of those Black people in Asia, Latin America, and elsewhere, even if they are not technically black. Although I believe this angle is not cleared up yet (Black is still strongly African in it's foundation), the self-identity should not be diluted with empathsis on a European or Eurocentric origin. -- 208.254.174.148 08:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The problem is the copyright violations. It seems I cannot post a single thing from another website. I have to call every person that owns the website and I am not going to be doing all that. I would rather link to other sites with citation, but that also has been a problem! Explain, if i can link to Melanesian websites that clearly describe themselves as black, is there any reason it would be rejecetd? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe a big problem with this is that we may have overlooked something. Earlier in the year, we discussed the problem of capitalizing "black" when referring to the group. IT seems that many people (non black especially) do not see blackness as anything more than a literal skin color. While many Black people see blackness as a cultural identity similar to being "arab" or "kurdish" or "Jewish". I hear a lot of disclaimer regarding black Asians which I think is not accurate. There are black asians, thats just how it is.
Sources of Asians by those same Asians claiming they identify as Black please. http://www.dalitstan.org/store/bkrev/dal_tbu.html (notice the original name of the book!) http://www.andaman.org/book/chapter8/text8.htm - Andamanese people (the island people just EAST of India.) http://www.pacificaids.org/grafix/vanuatu-gang_big.gif - People in Vanatu http://community-2.webtv.net/BARNUBIANEMPIRE/BLACKPEOPLEBLACK/page5.html
I am giving a physical description, not a quote from some group leader claiming to be black. You won't find that anywhere, not in Africa, nor Asia predating the colonization period. So that's a moot point. And I will not reply to nested itemized replies after this.
Their skin is dark and this isn't about them being "jet black" or not. If a medium toned Italian is seriously considered to be white, then it's absurd to exclude medium toned asians from being black. In fact, the question arises, why would or should medium-toned people outside of Equatorial Africa be viewed as white anyway? -- 208.254.174.148 08:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Again you miss the point. Many people do not identify as Black or White. To categorize them as either without their belief in such is patronizing.
Well then the White People article needs to totally recreate itself. There were no such thing as white people prior to 1620. Whiteness is a social order, Blackness was another social order established by those who considered themselves White, however, the stigma of being black is slowly decaying and more and more people.
I think what we need to so is to understand the difference between identifying somoene as a black person (someone with black skin), and a Black person (someone who self identifies as black regardless of their skin color). At this point, some may disagree, but this is the part where those who disagree should, and need to actually talk to black people and find out. You should not unilaterally dictate what Black identity should and should not be.
Growing up in a Black family does not make you an expert on how all dark skinned people in the world identify, sorry.
Oh, I do not rely on my own experiences. You see the internet is the place where this information is so readily available. Then you go to the library and find these references. Then you communicate with people in those areas, then you ask them how they view themselves. Usually they see on one hand that they are "not black like the African" but on the other "yes, black, we are different from the white, or the chinese person". When people associate black with purely being African, you will always get a rejection (because they are not in Africa!), but when you preclude "african-ness" they have little problem calling themselves Black.
The problem is the copyright violations. It seems I cannot post a single thing from another website. I have to call every person that owns the website and I am not going to be doing all that. I would rather link to other sites with citation, but that also has been a problem! Explain, if i can link to Melanesian websites that clearly describe themselves as black, is there any reason it would be rejecetd? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
You can always post links. That is an excuse.
However, no known Roman references to this has been found, and in addition, the Berber activity in Africa never reached to the coastal areas, where the portuguese and spanish would have acquired slaves. Ancient Romans thought that the part of the river near Timbuktu was part of the Nile River, a belief also held by Ibn Battuta, while early 17th-century European explorers thought that it flowed west and joined the Senegal River. The true course was probably known to many locals, but Westerners only established it in the late 19th century.
The Berbers covered huge regions of the north coast of Africa and interacted with the Romans way before Spanish or Portuguese. Many Arabs (Not Romans) indeed beleived it was possibly the same River, but did not change the use of two different names.
False, the river did not reach that far north. The burden of proof now lies on you. Where is this evidence?
Dravidian and Tamil people of India also may consider themselves black, however, there is no statistical insight into how relevant skin color has affected their self-identity.
Please post sources for this claim before posting it. If you can show it, i won't delete it. The source has to be of Tamils or Dravidians.
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/dravidian.html
have a nice day. -- 208.254.174.148 04:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I didn't have to do as much editing as I expected. Seems like somebody got the message. I definitely want to give you kudos for keeping your word, and as I expected, "The Epistemological Challenge" kept identical in the White and Black people article created a problem in the White People article, and I figured that the status-quo wouldn't accept it. Great job. Don't let social order dictate what our ethnic identity should or should not be.-- 208.254.174.148 04:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Since writing "The Epistemological Challenge" I have kept hands off of this article because others were cleaning it up. But I am becoming increasingly impatient and skeptical on one issue. It is the issue of non-Africans (mainly in Asia, evidently) voluntarily self-identifying as Black, "based on their own ethnic identity and self awareness," as the intro puts it.
One individual here insists upon injecting such a claim into the article and yet has refused to provide any shred of evidence for it. Until observing the last few exchanges, I had no opinion on the point. If some Tamils or Dalits or whoever wish to consider themselves "Black" in some ethno-political sense unrelated to genetics, then they have my blessing and more power to them. But the problem is that no evidence has yet been presented of such a self-identity among non-African populations, despite repeated pleas for such evidence from several contributors.
That Eurocentrists/Afrocentrists impose the label upon descendants of the African Diaspora is, in my opinion, sufficiently demonstrated to merit inclusion in the article. That Eurocentrists/Afrocentrists also impose the label upon anyone who "looks black" to them has also been sufficiently demontrated to merit inclusion. But that there are people out there who neither "look black" to Eurocentrists/Afrocentrists, nor descend from the African Diaspora, and yet consider themselves Black in some ethno-political sense is looking more and more like one person's unsubstantiated opinion.
Unless someone finds and posts references to either a first-hand account of such self-identity (by a member of the group) or a peer-reviewed second-hand account (by a researcher) within one week from now, I shall remove the claim from the article. I realize that the article is a work in progress, and I shall be happy to re-insert the claim if evidence is ever found. Until then, I have become convinced that it more prudent to leave it out. -- Frank W Sweet 11:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, Jugbo, you have convinced me. Most of the newspaper stories you linked to show that White Australian journalists consider Aborigines to be "Black", not that the people themselves consider themselves to be Black. Still, if their subjects consistently disliked the term, I am sure that the reporters would have avoided it. Furthermore, Ridgeway and Walker clearly self-identify as you say. Let us add a paragraph or two about Australians. Would you like to start it, since you are clearly more knowlegable than I? Or shoud I take a crack at it, and then you edit/correct it?
Regarding the appearance of Australian Aborigines, we had a discussion of this, along with maps of hair color at [33]. The consensus seems to be that skin tone is the same low-latitude adaptation you see around the Old World (not in the Americas because they lost those genes when crossing Beringia). But the other distinctive features are simply the coincidence of extended family resemblances from the initial band.
By the way, do you know anything about New Zealand? Does anyone there call the Maoris "Black"? -- Frank W Sweet 12:23, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
71.29.143.224 removed the following sentence: "In other cases, as in Brazil, the name is synonymous with low social status." I wish he/she had posted here the reason for this removal. On the off-chance that the contributor felt that the sentence was not detailed enoigh, I have expanded it a bit and added a source. -- Frank W Sweet 18:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
It is difficult to determine outside of an African orientation, how much the concept of blackness is in relation to literal skin color, as opposed to an ethnic identity based on skin color. As European colonialism reinforced a negative stigma to black identity, it is difficult to clearly determine which groups Work in progress
African Populations also have sub populations that identify as Black since colonial times and also with the advent of Pan-Africanism.
In Niger-Congo populations, where the term was first imposed in the colonial period, the term black is used to refer to themselves by many, but less among tribal groups.
Nilo-Saharan populations and Cushitic populations have some populations that do identify as Black and others who don't.
Saeedi Southern Egyptians and modern Nubians may consider themselves to be Black, especially in contrast to Arabization.
Afro-Diasporic Cultures vary depending on the culture they live in.
In the Caribbean some Afro-Diasporic populations in the Caribbean have adopted the term black, but others feel this term refers to Afro-Americans and not to them.
The Afro-American population has fully embraced the term Black to refer to their ethnicity.
Afro-Latinos vary by country, and many call themselves negros as well.
In Australia, the Aborigines or Indigenous Australians also were imposed the term black by the English, and by and large, refer to themselves as Black as well.
In India, the Siddi are a Afro-Diasporic people that may have groups that have embraced the name of Black, but no literature yet to show it. The Sheedi from Pakistan openly affirm their African orientation yet we do not know if they embrace a 'Black' identity.
Andy removed this section because he sees it as an essay, unsubstantiated opinion, not a reference, and the result of original thought. All WP articles are essays. It is not opinion, but explains why the very subject of the article is under contention. It is not unsubstantiated but is based upon the philosophy of how we know what we know as best expressed by Karl Popper. It is far from original thought (actually, it is "original research" that is discouraged in WP, not "thought"). The section is an essential introduction, at least until this essay evolves into having a topic that is agreed-upon. The chronic ongoing problem with the essay is still that it cannot decide whether to explain Afrcentrist/Eurocentrist fantasies or to advocate them. This decision must be made before the article can progress. The "Epistemogical Challenge" section directs it towards the former. Since it is unclear that Andy has given any thought to this point, I ask Andy, in the future, to discuss such massive deletions here before making them. -- Frank W Sweet 11:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I have tried to reorganize the article as suggested by my above comment to Andy. My goal was to make the article dispassionately explain how the term is used and not advocate its "proper" use. To this end, I have include all of Salassin's work as well as the information recently collected by Jugbo. I encourage everyone to please find more examples of "Black" self-identity, especially outside of Africa and the New World. You will notice that I left out everything dealing with Afrocentrist/Eurocentrist thought. This is because they seemed peripheral to the core explanation. Other WP articles Afrocentrism, Afrocentricity, Black Nationalism, White Nationalism deal with these issues in more depth than we can in an article merely about how the term "Black (People)" is used. Please feel free to add back in anything that you think I should not have removed, but please also consider adding links to the other WP articles mentioned above. -- Frank W Sweet 17:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
On second thought, "implicitly" may be better. Here is the applicable regulation from Employer Information Report EEO-1 and Standard Form 100, Appendix § 4, Race/Ethnic Identification, 1 Empl. Prac. Guide (CCH) § 1881, (1981), 1625.:
White (not of Hispanic origin)—All persons having origin in any of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa, or the Middle East.
Black (not of Hispanic origin)—All persons having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.
Hispanic—All persons of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.
This regulation is routinely interpreted by enforcers, and consistently ruled by federal courts, as disallowing dual or mixed "racial" membership. But the text does not say this in so many words. Feel free to change the article to "implicitly." -- Frank W Sweet 13:14, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
We are talking about the idea that someone who is utterly White-looking (like Carol Channing, Peter Ustinov, John James Audubon, and the present Queen of England Elizabeth II) is considered Black in some intangible undetectable way due to a known trace of distant African ancestry.
Scholars who have tried and failed to find a similar belief outside the United States include: Gary B. Mills, The Forgotten People: Cane River’s Creoles of Color (Baton Rouge, 1977), 193; Carl N. Degler, Neither Black nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States (New York, 1971), 101; Joel Williamson, New People: Miscegenation and Mulattoes in the United States (New York, 1980), 2; James Baldwin, Nobody Knows My Name (New York, 1962), 19; F. James Davis, Who is Black?: One Nation's Definition (University Park PA: State University of Pennsylvania, 1991); Magnus Morner, Race Mixture in the History of Latin America (Boston: Little Brown, 1967); and Marvin Harris, Patterns of Race in the Americas (Westport CT: Greenwood, 1964).
I have put the phrase back as it was, to match one drop theory, African American and Passing. If Jmac800 can cite a source for his claim that such a notion is found elsewhere, especially in Mexico or the Caribbean, I shall be happy to remove the phrase. -- Frank W Sweet 04:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but isn't this rather strange:
Australian Aborigines — Australians consider Aborigines to be Black, despite their lack of connection to the African slave trade.
By this logic, I suppose those dark-skinned Africans who were taken as slaves were black, while their dark-skinned cousins who weren't are not black? Camillus talk 18:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
True. Your point being? -- Frank W Sweet 18:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this is "a semantic argument", but I still have problems with the sentence above, maybe I am taking it out of context, but I feel it should stand on its own merits. First, I have the problem I mentioned before, also I have a problem with the bit about "Australians consider ..."; it seems to me that many Aus Aborigines see themselves as Black too. I agree with the comment below under "OK this kind of went overboard" - there is too much here about how non-blacks (and particularly Europeans) see blacks, and not enough about how they see themselves. My point about the "connection to the African slave trade", is that this seems to be being used as some criteria as to whether someone is black, when as you say, many Africans had nothing to do with this trade, and they certainly see themselves as black, and many of them are actually quite proud of being black. Camillus (talk) 20:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to be able to copyedit this phrase, but I'm afraid I don't know what it means: "...four million African slaves were transported to plantations in the Indian Ocean" Now, I realize that, despite the comedy that a literal reading of this phrase inspires, these Africans were not actually sent to kelp or krill plantations at the bottom of the sea. But, I still don't know if I believe what the sentence is trying to say. Where are all the Africans in the countries that border the Indian Ocean? The rest of the sentence is just as bad from a literal perspective: "about eight million were shipped to the Mediterranean basin" Are we talking about Spain, Italy, or North Africa? And once again, where are all these africans today? "and about eleven million were carried to the New World" This one I actually believe, but "carried"? Who wrote this? Could he/she please clarify their intended meaning? Thank you. ThePedanticPrick 19:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
While I agree with a lot of the article and helped edit prior versions of it, I will give it a week before I do some editing, because comments like 'semi-voluntary' to describe the Black ethnicity in the USA, do not just describe the struggle between concepts of racialism vs ethnicity and one droppism in this country, but seem somehow to convey that most people are being held hostage in this ethnicity. At the present time this article acts like Blacks are only such because they have been imposed raciality and they have been brainwashed into accepting this moniquer. It totally obviates the fact that Ethnicities form from common experience and struggle and formation of new cultural identities within that struggle. There is a valid Black ethnicity, and that ethnicity which has many beautiful aspects to it is completely misrepresented here in this article.
I get no sense of the Afro-American rich experience here or that of Australian Aborigines or other Afro-Diasporic and Proto-Afro-Diasporic people who do refer to themselves proudly as Black, and more a huge pontification on why they really shouldn't identify as Black.
There are plenty of ethnic groups that developed their titles from derogatory terms imposed on them. You still have to validate their ethnic experience from that point on. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.145.161.179 ( talk • contribs) .
I COMPLETELY disagree.
I know the word "preto" is an offensive term for black in brazil, and I just read a few weeks ago about the intermediate color terms such as mulato, moreno, and I forget the rest. Can someone help? ThePedanticPrick 22:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
These "African by Nature" links [47] are biased and inflammatory and don't belong in the black people article. Namely, the site promotes the controversial school of Afrocentrism. This is enough to disqualify them from inclusion, but aside from this, the site also contains inaccuracies such as references to "African Madonnas" (rather than Black Madonnas) and to a negroid Egyptian civilization, which is anything but universally accepted as historical fact. The site also features an essay by Jacob H. Carruthers that uses a quote by David Walker that includes the phrase "..the white slave holders, our enemies by nature" [48]. What is alarming about this quote is its designation "enemies by nature". Even if the "enemies" are slave holders, it doesn't sound good and clearly expresses more than just antipathy toward slavery. Another quote, of Carruthers, declares that "the present campaign by the defenders of Western Civilization is designed to murder the voice of African Centeredness," thus concluding that those who seek to preserve Western culture and heritage are fundamentally oppositional to the interests of black people, engendering racial dissent and misunderstanding. In another article that rips the Santa Claus tradition of Christmas (on a puerile, racist theme, of course), the author claims that the "...Middle East...[is] basically a part of Africa," and therefore that Jesus was black [49]. These are just from the first link in their "Open Our Eyes" section of essays, but I think it's enough to give the reader an idea of the tone of the site. The glossary, under "White", claims that "Europeans and European-Americans have been taught to believe that the word 'white' gives them a divine right over brown skinned people" [50]. Such generalizations and assumptions are racist and naive and should not be linked to by an encyclopedia. This is Wikipedia, not Propagandapedia or Afrocentripedia, and links to this site aren't worth including. The external links section is fine without them. -- Jugbo 03:12, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is true that this is clearly a biased source, and should not be included as evidence or citation. However, I think it should be cited as examples of Afrocentrist philosophy. For example, say somewhere that despite the fact that Dravidians may resemble sub-Saharan Africans more than, say, Swiss do, they are no more African than them because both Swiss and Dravidian people decend from a migration out of Africa that went two different directions. Then state that Afrocentrists who consider Dravidians to be Black people cite that because physical appearance, or phenotype (as opposed to genotype, genetic characteristics) are what people USUALLY distinguish race by, the combination of a similar Dravidian phenotype with their experience of persecution and racial discrimination at the hands of other Indians establishes them as Black people. Obviously this is an unscientific and biased perspective, but I think including it as an example of Afrocentrist philosophy would contribute to the article. 69.254.201.64 18:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Precolonial concepts of Blackness exist. let us not try to give so much credit to Europeans for "inventing" blackness. In fact, the modern concept linked to the word predates the European idea. I will clarify this in the article. Oh yeah, one more thing. I'm back.-- Zaphnathpaaneah 03:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I do like how the article has been updated, although much of my contributions have been changed, the essential ideas I brought into the article are for the most part left intact. The "who looks black" section is most welcome. --
Zaphnathpaaneah
03:04, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
We need some citations, some clear citations, (not some uncited "citations") regarding the Romans naming the river after Berber tribal names. I have yet to find a map, or a testimony from a Roman general or traveler that shows any "Niger" naming from the Berber. In fact, the Niger river was not fully explored from it's southern Nigerian source to it's Senegalese outlet in the 19th century (long after the southern portion was named "Niger". In addition, the "river bend" Timbucktu portion where the Berbers would be most present and in contact with Romans, that portion was also not associated to the Nigerian Delta outlet until the 19th century by Europeans (Romans nor French nor British). So a continuity issue arises. How would the portion of the river (the Niger delta portion) be named after the Berber name in antiquity, if those who named it "Niger" did not know that it was connected to the berber portion until AFTER it was named "Niger" in the delta area. Finally, the "Berber" language is not clear.
In fact, the problem with the Berber origin is that it does not specifiy with "berber" language we are talking about. The Romans actually named the river Dasibari. And it is called similarily "Isa Ber" meaning "big river" in Songhay; (People who lived in the northern region (the Berber region) from the mideval period perhaps even earlier. Where did I get this information? Well, from the Niger River article in Wikipedia.
By the dawn of that century it had been established that the Niger originated somewhere in the Highlands of Guinea, not far from the Atlantic Coast. Explorers managed to follow the course of the river northeast through the lush tropical forests of Guinea to the land of Timbuktu. From here they found that the River wound around vast areas of savanna and the arid sand dunes of the southern Sahara. Geographers of the time speculated as to whether this was a tributary of the Nile or even if it was the Congo River.
After several attempts explorers were, in 1834, able to follow the river all the way to it’s outlet to the sea. After following the river for some 4,200 kilometers (2,600 miles) they discovered that the Niger enters the Atlantic Ocean a relatively mere 1,700 kilometers (1,000 miles) from it’s source. It was now possible to properly map the route of the River and, subsequently, open it to use by foreign merchants. From this point onwards the Niger began to take on a level of importance far exceeding it’s previous limited use. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 23:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
It's rare that something grabs my attention so much that I keep on reading it from start to finish. This discussion has touched on some very valid points and shows that we can't all live together and get on happily. How on Earth are we gonna react when the aliens land on earth if we can't even get along ourselves!? What would we do if the aliens were white and had three breasts with blonde hair and blue eyes? Or if they looked like a terrorist and only had one breast. On a serious note, with articles like this one can we be sure that the information on wikipedia is accurate and not biased towards the writer's (or writers') point of view. 23:38, 19 February 2006
The use of South Africa as an example of "African Diaspora" is paradoxical because South Africa is IN Africa. It would be like using Greece to describe "Hellenic diaspora" or "Russia" to describe "Slavic diaspora". Using South Africa in as an example of people "considered to be Black in the African diaspora" lends credence (however remote, however miniscule) to the notion that the original inhabitents were not characteristically Black Africans. In other words, the argument goes back to the notion that because the earliest inhabitents were of a dark brown (instead of jet black), shorter stature, they are not considered to be Black. If the contributor wants to debate whether or not Khoi, or San, or any other indigenous equatorial African is black, we should directly speak on that. - Zaphnathpaaneah.
I found this statement to be blatently POV:
" have adopted the rhetoric of the U.S. Black movement, including that of labeling themselves as Black. This self-identity has been encouraged and even funded by liberal U.S. organizations who believe that the first step in achieving social justice outside the United States is to impose a U.S.-like endogamous barrier between "oppressed" and "oppressor", so that no individual can claim to belong to both sides."
I changed the line: Some African Americans also have European and/or Native American ancestry as well to Many African Americans also have European and/or Native American ancestry as well because the vast majority of African Americans are of mixed racial ancestry. Current DNA samplings and tests have consistently shown that the average African American is racially mixed. Some is more "recent" than others, but few (if any) are of strictly pre-colonial, sub-Saharan ancestry. Skin tone is not a reliable indicator of one's "blackness"; you may find a large range of skin tones within one generation of African Americans with the same parents, hence Carol Channing's warnings from her mother as a young adult. Tiger Woods is a good modern day example - though it is often pointed out he has less than 50% African ancestry, his skin colour and phenotype is stronger than many people typically classified as exclusively African American/black.
Why are there no links/discussion to the informal caste system within the topic: U.S. society equates the label with African-American ethnicity? This caste system in the U.S. concerning blacks greatly shaped the views of both Americans and the world about what black means in America and how it has changed over the centuries, particularly the past 100 years. This caste system, though somewhat waning, still exists in black America, is not as formal and strict as places like India. Yet like India, it is applied unevenly depending on one's gender and wealth. Could there be a link to the topic and an expansion on the subject within that topic concerning U.S. perceptions?
A separate, but related topic is the history and concept of bi-racial or multi-racial identity in the U.S. Should there be a link to the topic? What I have read seems somewhat lacking when discussing U.S. attitudes concerning blacks. It glosses over the term bi-racial. A 50%-50% split concerning blacks is genetically impossible in the US, since the vast majority of African Americans are of mixed racial ancestry. If it means the offspring of two people externally identified as coming from two distinct racial groups, then what of the offspring of those children and can it be applied retroactively? Nothing in the article adequately addresses the identity of offspring of two bi-racial/multi-racial persons or of a bi-racial and a black person and how cultural biases can lead to logical fallacies concerning racial identity.
That's why many within the African American community consider the designation ephermeral and elitist, especially after the 1960's Civil Rights/Black Pride era. They took offence at those emphasizing their mixed racial heritage, etc., viewing them as abandoning their African American ethnicity out of sense of shame or a way of using their "otherness" to gain greater social acceptance and white privilege (e.g. Tiger Woods). Since both currently and historically this legal/ethnic identity is/was not allowed to pass down the generations unless those offspring also had children with someone of non-black racial ancestry, otherwise they would be considered black. Even this a relatively new phenomena from a legal viewpoint (e.g. 2000 U.S. Census). In the past, it was informally acknowledged by labeling such persons mulatto, quadroon, octoroon, vs. "Negro" but they were still considered part of the black community though with a higher social status by all. As the black community became more genetically mixed over the centuries, these terms fell out of use to be replaced by Colored or Negro, often used interchangeably to subtly acknowledge black America's racial diversity.
This is where those leading the current multi/bi-racial debate paint themselves into a logical corner. If first generation mixed persons want to identify themselves as bi-racial/mixed and the bulk of African Americans are of two or more racial groups, what makes them any different from the "average" black person? Differentiating themselves becomes meaningless if they want to use the accepted definition of black AND say "but I am of significant non-African stock, thus I'm different (i.e. better)." Everyone "black" in America can reasonably make the mixed-race claim, though they may lack to birth records to do so because of the slavery/miscegenation laws of the past.
For those who say it's both the racial and cultural identity that define them as mixed this also is a very weak argument. What of those who come from "recent" bi-racial joinings who were raised mostly/exclusively by the black parent, most likely in a traditional black community? Or white kids raised by blacks in a black community? Why can't they be considered black? What of black children raised in a traditional white community by white parents? What of blacks who consciously reject any traditional black cultural leanings? Can they consider themselves to be mixed? Indeed, what of the fluid exchange of cultures and genes in America in general? Since African Americans are both a racial and cultural amalgamation of African and European cultures and phenotypes, saying one person is "mixed" vs. black is pointless.
The strongest argument that can be made is that of non-black parents in a multi/bi-racial relationship who may resent their identity and cultural heritage being shunted to the side because of enduring racist attitudes in America. This is a very valid point and unfortunately often ignored. But more often than not, it is the children of these joinings who make the most of their non-black ancestry, not the parent(s). And they most often do it for the reasons mentioned above (white privilege and shame).
Removed sentence: "The same thing could be argued about African-Americans, given the ideological prevalence (at least among the "white" population, who possess the social and economic power to determine the meaning of such categories) of the one-drop theory." This sentence's only content, other than personal value judgment, is that US-Whites invented and/or support the one-drop rule. Overwhelming peer-reviewed evidence shows this to be incorrect. The U.S. Black community has supported and enforced the one-drop rule since 1840 and continues to do so today. U.S. society as a whole (Whites) supported it only between roughly 1910 and 1967. -- Frank W Sweet 15:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Corrected apparent vandalism: "Boards reflected local public opinion and often found it helpful to cooperate with those wanting to change from Black to Coloured, Coloured to White or White to Black, etc." In fact, there is no record of any South African school ever seeking a downgrade from White to Black. -- Frank W Sweet 15:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Who uses these terms? Why is this edit acceptable? Are these terms really contemporary enough to have right there in the beginning of the article??? - CobaltBlueTony 14:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
removed the phrase: "however the concept of Black people can be found as early as the 2nd Century BC". It needs citation. If it is suggesting that humans were unaware of skin-tone differences until the 2nd century BC, then it seems exceddingly unlikely, especially in view of findings by Kurzba, Tooby, and Cosmides described in the article. If the phrase is suggesting that an endogamous color line, caste system, or ethnic self-identity centered "Blackness" existed prior to the Reformation, then it flies in the face of all serious research yet conducted on the origins of the "race" notion. Either way, it is so unlikely as to demand strong peer-reviewed citation. -- Frank W Sweet 14:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Removed the following because it attributes motives to people, appararently based upon the author's mind-reading skills.
For different reasons, black and white Americans renounce the self-identity of Asians, Pacific Islanders, and others as black. For black Americans that renounce, this is due to an assumption that the label "black" is applicable only to Black Americans due to the association of brutality and racism with black perserverance. For white Americans, the identity of non-Africans as Black undermines a status-quo and can threaten the cultural and social projections white people have established throughout the world in the former colonies. In response, many (especially conservative) assume that extra-African blackness is a shallow or empty association to black Americans. Very few are aware of, or respect the sophisticated and very real intra-cultural relationships between black people of direct African ancestry and black people of other backgrounds.
The above may be restored if peer-reviewed citation can be found showing evidence of such simplistic and shallow motivations. -- Frank W Sweet 15:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Judgesurreal777 wrote: For this important topic, there needs to be more references.
I agree, and I accept part of the blame. When, last December, we began turning this article from a pean of Afrocentrism into an overview of the different (and often contradictory) meanings of the term, Salsassin agreed to do the grunt work of writing (he's good at that--he's a lawyer) and I agreed to do the citations and references (I am a historian and molecular anthropologist). He did his part, but I fear that I have fallen down on the job. My only excuse is that we have both been distracted by some very interesing discussions of recent findings in phylogeography. I hereby ask Salsassin (and anyone else for that matter) who is interested in this topic to please mark places in the text that could use references with the following template: {{fact}}. This will put " citation needed" into the text. I will then be happy to go through and replace the tags with peer-reviewed scholarly sources (tweaking the text as needed). -- Frank W Sweet 11:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Paragraph tweaks: (1) Replaced, "mistaken for" with, "were of overwhelmingly European genetic admixture like millions of so-called". (2) Deleted: "of strong sub-Saharan African appearance and by very fair-complected Blacks who adhere to the belief that their shared historical experiences make them a single people." Nothing wrong with it, but this seems like the wrong paragraph to get into motivations. Isn't there a better place to say this? If you really like it here, go ahead and put it back. it just seems out of place to me. (3) Added, "helped create in the 1830s North and" plus link. (4) Cut back claim that many forms now allow multiple choices. Census 2000 did this, but EEOC, Small Business Admin, the Judiciary, and all other federal agencies continue to insist on one-and-only-one box. A citation would be needed otherwise. -- Frank W Sweet 09:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Right, the section on South Africa is problematic. First of all, during Apartheid there weren't three racial categories - there were four: Black, White, Coloured, and Asian. Secondly, the tone of this section assumes that the South African experience of having distinct identities for black and coloured people is not only a throwback from apartheid, but that it is somehow inferior to the American experience of not having this distinction. Why should Coloured South Africans and Black South Africans be lumped together? Their cultures (and languages) are distinct (that's just historical fact. no point arguing over it) and secondly that sets White people as the benchmark against which all other groups are judged. There is more to being black or coloured than just being not-white. Joziboy25 April 2006, 21:47 (UTC)
Sorry if that came off as a bit of a rant! I think it was just the phrasing that gave me that impression. I've reworded a couple of sentences. Firstly, since you mention Khoisan I don't think the first sentence should be about general British ex-colonies since they're particular to southern Africa. Also, I didn't follow the sentence that African-Americans had trouble socialising with South African black people - presumably there was only a problem between coloured and black people? Anyways I've tried to make it sound more neutral. What do you think? Joziboy 25 April 2006, 22:38 (UTC)
Someone inserted some vandalism in front of a dozen references to the following journals: Human Biology, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, American Journal of Human Biology, American Journal of Human Genetics, Legal Medicine, Comptes Rendus Biologies, Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution, Tissue Antigens, European Journal of Medical Genetics. The vandalism suggested that these journals are "accepted by the Stormfront group, but decried as invalid and unscientific by geneticists Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza, and Neil Risch." This is incorrect. The world's leading and most highly respected molecular anthropology journals are not secretly supporting Stormfront. And none of the articles cited have ever been challenged by the men named above nor by anyone else in a peer-reviewed source. -- Frank W Sweet 21:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I was specifically referring to the Arnaiz-Villena study based on a single genetic marker, which has been decried as lacking scientific merit by Neil Risch, Alberto Piazza, and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza. By your ad-hominem characterisms and your dismissive tone it is clear that you are not interested in reaching a consensus or responding to valid criticism ; you just want to villify anyone who reproduces the scientific consensus on Arnaiz-Villena's erroneous studies as a "sock-puppet", "vandal", or whatever else is your particular insult of choice at the moment. Until you revise the article to also represent the devastating criticism made on Arnaiz-Villena's study, I'm afraid you are acting as nothing more than an ignorant fanatic in your contributions. Porfyrios 21:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
If there are other sources to that effect, cite them instead of the demolished Arnaiz-Villena claims. Until you do so, criticism of these claims by the leading scientists of the sector should remain in the article. And what makes you a fanatic is your tendency to respond to valid criticism with insults, not your apparent ignorance. Porfyrios 22:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Both the studies by Arnaiz-Villena used the same methodology, arrived to the same conclusion with regards to the existence of subsaharan DNA in the Greek population, and were beset by the same problem, which was their arbitrary reliance on a single genetic marker to reach conclusions. The conclusion which Sforza and Co decry as "extraordinary", "anomalous" and "contradictory to history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups" is one and the same in both studies. Porfyrios 22:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not unrelated at all. The same author used the same erroneous methodology that was criticized as being broken beyond repair, to the degree of completely lacking scientific merit in the publication that Human Immunology retracted. He used the same methodology in the Tissue Antigens study, reaching identical conclusions with those criticised by those leading geneticists as "extraordinary", "anomalous" and "contradictory to history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups". What more is there to say?
Why do you find it so hard to accept that this entry should include statements of the leading geneticists in the world, to the effect that claims about Greeks being "very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans" are "extraordinary", "anomalous" and "contradictory to history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups". Porfyrios 22:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with this study, but I don't see why it should be. Cite it along with the other relevant statements in the discussion. Porfyrios 23:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Only, I didn't. I guess you fancy your insinuations about a "vast Jewish conspiracy" suppressing genetic research with regards to Jewish and Palestinian relatedness as more credible, then? Porfyrios 23:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
And it was the leading scientists in the field who responded it should have been retracted, for no other reason than the fact it constituted shoddy research and lacked scientific merit. Guess who I choose to believe.
And another thing. Guess what that brilliant beacon of scientific ingenuity, Arnaiz-Villena, has been up to now... Apparently he is facing charges for embezzlement of funds at his department! I guess the Vast Jewish Conspiracy won't rest until the man is behind bars, eh? ( http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7339/695) Porfyrios 23:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_%28people%29#Conclusion Porfyrios 13:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The paragraphs on Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe in "Who is a descendant of the African Diaspora?" have attracted so much debate that they have bloated beyond usefulness to this article. In addition, the tangential debate over DNA studies has jeopardized the stability of this article. It took us over four months to stabilize this article (since December 2005) and its stability is still fragile. It does not need to be the hub of an apparently interminable debate on DNA admixture. Finally, the paragraphs are now common to two different articles ( White (people) and Black (people)). And so, unless anyone has a cogent objection I shall split off the paragraphs on Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. I shall replace these paragraphs in this article with a one-paragraph summary and a link to a separate new article titled Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. I shall copy all of the existing paragraphs, their references, and their "disputed" tags to the new article. I expect the ongoing DNA admixture debate to continue in the new article. I expect the disputants to stop hammering away at the present article, since there will be nothing here but the essential one-paragraph summary and a link. I will wait six hours from now before implementing this split-off. -- Frank W Sweet 17:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
"In places that imported relatively few slaves (like the Mascarene Islands or Argentina), few if any are considered Black today.[6]"
Contrary to popular opinion, Argentina imported a significant number of slaves before the transatlantic slave trade ended. For example, Blacks represented a whopping 25 percent of the Buenos Aires population in 1838 ( Graham: The Idea of Race in Latin America, 1870-1910). Moreover, historial records show that blacks or mulattoes comprised 30-49 percent of the Argentine population in 1800 (Andrews: Afro-Latin America, 1800-2000). The number of blacks in Argentina gradually declined as racism an xenophobia prompted the government to whitten the population through the massive importation of Europeans. As a result, blacks in Argentina were gradually reduced to an invisible minority and were pushed aside by newcomers.
The following is in reply to the anonymous paragraph above:
The problem is that when the settlers arrived the land was mostly owned by the natives some of which included
moors who had been trading goods and sailing to the Americas before the settlers arrived, also hundreds of years before the Mid-Atlantic slave trades. As many of the new settlers bought land they became part of this new government. As the government progressed, more settlers bought more land from the "Free White" until the communities began to remove the rights of priveleges those who are now considered Native American, Moors ("black", "white", southern, northern american natives), eventually the government grew to the point that it was taking or tricking land from individuals whom owned it. A common practice today. Later on the term Free White which originally had nothig to do with skin was a way to take land from darker skinned individuals. It was at this moment that the term white began being associated with color of skin and the term Negro was a widelely used term for the African looking natives and the Native Americans. Soldiers went off to fight in the Spanish American War only to return to their homes and realized the government took their land. White is really a social status that has been changed to fit a racial
meme.--
Gnosis
19:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Lol I never heard of genetic averaging and can't find anything scientifically related to it. As a person who is multiracial I find that offensive. Is genetic averaging another way of trying to instigate the one drop rule. Sorry but that's down the toilet. Besides how can someone half black and half white be only black? That is stupid just thinking realistically, you do realize they are half white too and have every right to be proud of that heritage too. World is changing...get with the program AA's.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Blasian123 ( talk • contribs)
Seriously...Thanks User:Blasian123
A lot of Blasian people I know don't consider themselves black because they say their North East Asian genes cancel out their black genes, HOWEVER they still consider people like Halle Berry black. The logic is that race fall along a continuum with black people at one extreme, North East Asians, at the other and Europeans in the middle. This continuum can be quantified by the age of the races. Since so many people are of mixed race, you're considered black if your overall genes are older (i.e. more African) than those of Europeans, and you're considered North East Asian if your overall genetic mix is younger than that of most Europeans. People who are a mix of black genes (which are oldest) and North East Asian genes (which are youngest)have the same overall genetic age as Europeans. This has been confirmed by modern genetic research which sometimes describes Europeans as a genetic hybrid because their DNA resemble blacks and North East Asians far more than the latter two groups resemble each other.
A common analogy is that if a tall person & a short person have a kid, the kid is neither tall or short but if an tall person and an average person have a kid, the kid will be tall. Similarly, if a black person and a North East Asian have a kid,the kid is neither black or North East Asian, but if a black person & a white person have kids, the kids will be black. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.4 ( talk • contribs)
While I am in no way endorsing the concept (I think it's ridiculous actually... genes don't cancel each other out). What I think the unsigned comment person is referring to with "genetic age" is this: recent genetic research has found that mankind originated in Africa (they knew this already from fossil remains, but genetic research found it with another method). The way this was worked out was that "indigenous/black Africans" (gotta be careful with labels! I am a White African and consider that no less African than black Africans) have more genetic diversity than any other group. This means that there has been a human gene pool in Africa for longer than in any other continent (since the more generations, the more genetic diversity). That doesn't mean African genes are 'older' - it just means Africa was the birthplace of mankind. Joziboy 16 May 2006, 12:35 (UTC)
For years people have defined black as having some arbitrary degree of sub-Saharan African ancestry. The problem with this definition is that all people have sub-Saharan African ancestors since the first modern humans were Black Africans (i.e. African Eve). Thus it's a lot less confusing when a black person is defined as someone who is closer to the original (thus oldest) human race. Now since close is a relative term, it's a matter of opinion and arbitrary cultural standards in deciding whether a mulattoo is close enough to be black but I think the point of genetic averaging is that while mulattos are closer to black people than white people are, a Blasian person is no more black than a white person is. This is because although Blasian have one black parent, their North East Asian parent is as genetically far removed from black as possible. Thus, on the genetic level they're no different from Europeans who've been called genetic hybrids because they share 65% of their genes with North East Asians, and 35% with pure black Africans.
Now I think the one drop rule is absurd, but one reason why it has remained such a potent force (i.e. mulatto Halle Berry named first black woman to win an Oscar) is the subjective impression (now confirmed by genetic studies)that the peoples of European ancestry are genetically neutral, so a drop of either black or North East Asian blood creates a disequilibrium, disrupting their genetic balance and pushing them to one or the other racial extreme. Thus while mulattos and are often considered black, and Eurasians are considered Asian, Blasians (which are an average of two extremes) are much less likely to be pigeon-holed into any one race.
And of course there are dark skinned people that are not black. Race should be defined by genetics not by superficial characteristics like skin color.
Because this page discusses racial perceptions, there should be discussion about the fascinating fact that society often defines mulattos like Halle Berry as black and yet defines Blasians like Tiger Woods as mixed race. Why should this be if both have a roughly equal degree of black ancestry? Also Eurasians are usually just considered Asian. Again there seems to be in society an implicit rule that defines mixed race people by their most EXTREME race, but since Blasians are a product of two opposite extremes, they can't be reduced to one race or the other.
In other words, when you mix Caucasian with either black or North East Asian, the black or Asian dominates, but when black & North East Asian are mixed with one another, both extremes are neutralized. It is very interesting that this historical cultural perception has now been confirmed by science which shows that Europeans truly are a neutral race, and just like Blasians, are a genetic intermediate, with just as many pure African genes as most Blasians. This was cited in the article.
I suppose this is a small thing comapred to the vitrolic responses the dicussion page is getting, but I have some issues with the section on the Latin origins of the term Negro as having come from the Niger river. Niger was a Latin cognomen at least as far back as the second century B.C. to refer to dark (Roman) individuals, at a time when Roman geographers would have had little notion of the Niger river and certainly of its Berber designation. Therefore, it seems unlikely that the Latin root began there, and seems more likely that the river was named after the already-existing term or even that they are unrelated.
To the Anonymous poster of this fact just above. I mentioned this several times, but some contributors have a prejudiced reasoning. I explained that the Romans named the river Dasibari (similar to the name given by some of the current BLACK groups in Niger and Mali). This WAS linked to the Niger River page, but someone took it off. The fact is, some contributors want the world to view blackness as nothing more than a mere concoction... an afterthought if you will of the White enlightened mindset. "Oh those people don't really HAVE a name, we just gave them one from our own boredom." These are the KIND of statements I hear. "Blackness doesn't really exist, it's a product of white supremacy" and the such. That's baloney. "Blackness" is a relational term to those who do not consider themselves Black, however the concept goes far beyond the "Latin" based societies. As we see, there are Black groups outside of Europe's tendrils, that had their own peculiar names, which means that the non-whites were also intelligent enough to see skin contrast and also shallow (or just human) enough to consider very dark skinned people to be black. It wasn't a "white" invention from some labratory of some Habsburg aristocrat or what not. -- 68.60.55.162 03:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
In addition, anyone interested in forcing the Niger River to be the origin of the Latin name of Black people. Edit the Niger River article first and resolve the dispute THERE before you try to use it here. -- 68.60.55.162 03:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC) (The controversial contributor)
This section was removed for it's blatently POV slant (this belongs here in the discussion, not out there in the article):
"The word “Black” (and even worst "black" lowercase) has no historical or cultural association. It does not fully articulate the history and geo-political reality of African people. Black as a political (or colloquial) term was fashioned as a reactionary concept in the 60's and 70's against White supremacy, but it was never meant as an epithet for African people, but moreover a transitory term to move a people away from Coloured and Negro. As a political term it was fiery and trendy but never was it an official racial classification of peoples who have a 120,000 year old history. Indians are from India , Chinese from China . There is no country called Blackia or Blackistan. Hence, the ancestry-nationality model is more respectful and accurate: African-American, African-British, African-Brazilian, and African-Caribbean.
The mass usage of “black” by people of African decent is poor justification for the flagrant usage of the word. Because if that argument is to hold-up it would be justified to start using the term Nigger again, due to the self-destructive resurgence of this word among African-American people."
I certainly, as a Black man, disagree with this silly interpretation of "Black". The word Black, first of all, is a non-politically correct term, and is unabashadly straight-forward in describing the people of which I am one. I am Black and also African-American, and I do not need to follow someone else's THEORY as to why the word (which is commonly used without reliance on Eurocentric ideals) should or should not be used. The word "black" has been used outside of a Eurocentric context for millenia, all over the world. And there is nothing wrong with the obvious fact that some people are "black". If we remove the Black element in African-American, it will obviously be over run with Afrikaaners and north African Arabs trying to usurp the word for exclusive use for themselves. After all THEY are African-American too. I find it DISRESPECTFUL to deny using the word Black to describe me, my heritage, and my ancestry. I am Black, no strings attached. Get over yourself! -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Black describes the fact that you were a slave and still think like a slave. An emotional slave attached to the chains of oppression. What is "black" about you? Are you from Blackia or Blackistan?? nothing in the above makes and academic sense, it is a personal statement rooted in false pride. Maybe people for emotional reasons wouldnt say "i am not black (Black)" but that has no bearing on if "black" is acceptable and still relevant. The issue of why they say this is out of emotional reasons. We are not intrested in what whites want to take, if we use it then it becomes ours, they can take the word because of people who dont want to be African so the Europeans (who have a lot of sense say " okay We are Africans" so 500 Years later we are left being "black" and not "African." Most African scholars stress the usage of African over black starting with Malcolm X and John Henrick CLarke, not to mention Kimani Nehusi.-- halaqah
Well considering that Black as a word has been used by dark skinned people to describe themselves since before biblical times, I find it hard to believe that the human capacity to see strong contrasts in skin color as a creation by European slave masters. The countries of Ethiopia (Greek for land of the Black skinned people), Sudan (Arabic for land of the Blacks), Niger/Nigeria (Latin for Black, not the river), Kemet (Egyptian for Black Land), "Kushite" (egyptian/Hebrew for Black people), etc... The word "black" in its own right has no negative connotation. Now the continent of Africa was coined by Romans and likley a man named Africanus whateverus. It did not even refer to the continent, but a region of the Barbary coast near Carthage. Everyone in the world known to have dark skin did not originate culturally from Africa (although all humans ancestrally did). Human diversity should not be thrown out the window whenever the individuals have dark skin, that's disrespectful. But you know what is so funny and ironic, I used to make the same argument long ago. I remember telling people that we don't come from "Blackalia and Blackistan"... so I certainly see where you are coming from. But I learned later that dark skinned people share a common human social experience, and that also is related to our struggle. If Black is not the word, then African certainly isn't. Nubian? I don't think so (Nebu is Egyptian for "people of the gold" referring to the fact that the Nubians lived near gold mines). Equatorial is the only word I can come up with, especially considering how ignorant the phrase "Sub-Saharan African" is. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 06:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Once again, we have another attempt to make Blackness a bad thing. Some people want Africans to just reject who they are and be "assimilated". Nope. 100 years from now there will be Black people everywhere, a worldwide majority. You won't diffuse that majority by reprogramming our minds now ahead of time to redefine ourselves as to further divide and conquer. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 04:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Pedantic, the best way to show objectivity is to work on your own area before critisizing the work done by others. I do not see any comments made by you in the white article discussion imploring Whites to call themselves "pink" or "pasty". That lack of assertiveness will always make your reasoning here seem slightly less than honorable. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 06:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
There's one thing I don't understand: when white people exclude everyone who's not white, you complain, and then when we allegedly start expanding the definition of white to include everyone, you complain too. There's just no pleasing you, is there? ThePedanticPrick 12:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I complain Pedantic because white people do these things to suit their own ends at the cost of other people. Expanding white to "include" everyone is not to really include anything, but to bolster the numbers of the "inner" white minority. IN essence my non-white heritage is usurped by whites to reaffirm their (not my own) cultural image. So it's not a matter of linerally expanding or contracting a group. It's a matter of using and abusing something that is not yours. Egyptians were not white until Egypt became a cultural icon. Jews were not white until after the Holocaust. Italians were not white until they became a significant part of Euro-American cultural appropriation. Now Latinos and Arabs are becoming white in order to realign the population numbers. So the question is really "is there any pleasing YOU"? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 12:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better if it were some pictures of male black celebrities? Why did someone erased Jamie Foxx's and 50 Cent's pictures?
Someone has deleted all the pictures. I think is something necesary in an article of this characteristics. You can look for it in the Asian people article and in the White (people) article.
I am wondering, why after all that hemming and hawing did my version of the article get restored. I don't MIND, but I figured we were all working together. I appreciate the consideration by whomever made the choice to do so. I'm just curious as to why. It looks like the change was made by Dynamicknowledge24. I appreciate it, but I was also interested in how well the article was incorporating the required "citation" and It would be nice to merge the two. I also know that the version I started was not a cleaned up version (but goodness before it was a terrible version). So can we try to work with the two? -- Zaphnathpaaneah 06:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Was "black" an official category in apartheid South Africa?
The article says It is sometimes used to refer to all non-white people, especially in a political context. This has also been the case in South Africa. I think that this is incorrect. I'm sure that some people of colour are or were known as 'coloureds' in that country.
I also think that the article should refer to the term 'people of colour'.
As one of many millions who were active in the anti-apartheid movement, I just had to simply say how nice it is to see it referred to in the past tense. Such evil! :-D deeceevoice 06:00, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
'Black' is not generally the total lack of pigment - or have I mis-parsed that sentence? It it intensity == luminous intensity or intensity == print density?
I meant lack of intensity, but I will rephrase it so its clearer. Thanks. --Alan D
"many so-called "white" Americans are of African descent,"
Recent mtDNA, Y-Chromosome, and autosomal DNA analysis suggest that African admixture into the White gene pool has occurred at a negligible (<1%) frequency.
Isn't being "free of debt" very positive in a non-capitalist societies?
I removed this 'graph rather than trying to fix it:
An accurate replacement might just be too long to be worth the info it conveyed. I'm sure that it would take me too much effort to be worth my creating it today, and the 'graph is wrong enough to be better gone than in the article.
--
Jerzy
(t) 18:06, 2004 Aug 16 (UTC)
What is registration black, or 255 255 255 255?? How is it different from 0 0 0 255, which is black in CMYK?? 66.32.249.176 20:19, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Should I have reverted User:129.59.21.126's edits? I dunno. I feel dumb. Evil saltine 04:16, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Deleted the UK Usage section, in included:
In the United Kingdom, the term "black" refers to the simian-like people from subsaharan africa that probably are the most related to apes. [[ PaulinSaudi 04:30, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)]]
In ancient times, there were/are black aboriginal groups closely resembling Bantu throughout Asia. Presently, the so-called "Black Thai," or Tai Dam, whose facial characteristics and skin color very closely resemble those of the San of the Kalahari, are found in Thailand, Cambodia, parts of India and China. Tamils, in southern India are black -- blacker than many Africans -- and are commonly referred to as "black." And the rest of India is pretty much "black" by U.S. standards (even though most wouldn't admit it! :-p). And then, of course, there are the peoples of Melanesia, in Greek, the "Black Islands": New Guineans, for example. I've no time to add any of this to the main article, but perhaps someone else will. deeceevoice 06:17, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Super.
I think that there should be a picture, so that visual learners will be able to put a picture to the words. 68.149.202.222 23:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)