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Don't remove Denmark. Denmark is a part of Scandinavia and have lots of black-metal bands too. I don't understand why somebody don't want them within, but they got Illnath, Nortt and Sort Regn. Their important for Greenland, Iceland and Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.165.247 ( talk) 13:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Do not remove Lucifugum and Nokturnal Mortum from "The second Wave of Black Metal". Ukrainian scene is not less important and known than Polish or French scene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Black pauk1488 ( talk • contribs) 05:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
i think under the history section the banning of black metal in malaysia should be mentioned Malacath ( talk) 16:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Black metal used to mean any group that sung Satanic lyrics. The oposite being white metal which was groups that sung lyrics about the Bible. When Venom released the album "Black metal" it was reference to it being evil / satanic.
Its like saying Helloween are first wave Death Metal as they appeared on an album titled "Death Metal". Everyone knows Helloween aren't Death metal the same way everyone remembers Venom were part of the NWOBHM. Venom sound more like Motorhead only with poorer recording quality and production - Motorhead were a much bigger band with bigger label support.
The relatively new genre taking the name "Black Metal" evolved from Death Metal groups who took a large influence from groups like Venom. Black metal as a genre / sub-genre of extreme metal music started not with Venom etc but was started much later and was greatly influenced by Venom etc.
Quote: Wikipedia "White Metal"
"Eric Wagner himself has commented on marketing the band as white metal:
It was Metal Blade. Back then they called all of it ´Black Metal´, y´know, Slayer, Danzig, etc., all those bands, they are ´Black Metal´, so I didn't grow up believing in all that crap and I think that people didn't believe in it either. It was a question about marketing your band in some way, so I had to do it. So I did this. Metal Blade called us as a “White Metal band” and I just wished they didn't.[3]"
End Quote
I was around then and I read all the magazines (internet wasn't around so we all read the magazines to get the latest info) and I went to many metal clubs and concerts. As Eric puts it is exactly as I remember it. Those trying to say it was a genre were obviously not around at the time. Metalosaurus ( talk) 17:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Pagen HD ( talk) 10:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Type in bold as much as makes you feel good, lol. (I have edited the top comment to also use bold my main points - and have signed it) If you are able to read the quote / remark made by Troubles singer 'Eric Wagner' then you will notice he is referring to how it was back in those days. I was there and it is exactly as I remember it. Venom started the term "Black Metal" and it was not seen as a genre but a reference to 'Satanic Metal'. Just as Trouble were seen as "White Metal". Trouble were not Christians anymore than groups such as Slayer were satanic. Its just the name that was being used by the fans and the magazines. Eric Wagner was commenting on how "White Metal" evolved - as an opposite to "Black Metal". If "Black Metal" back in the 80s & early 90s didn't refer to satanic metal then WTF is "White Metal" and how did it come around??!! It seems very strange and if not way toooo coincidental that white is the opposite to black and white metal came after black metal. Isn't also strange how people around at the time (including Eric Wagner) remember black metal as satanic / satanic themed metal and white metal as Christian / biblical themed metal?!! When the genre now referred to as "Black Metal" came around it was made by much later groups who were raised on genres such Death Metal as much as they were influenced by NWOBHM groups such as Venom and their sound was a combination of the two.
Yes obviously Slayer are obviously thrash and it is a good illustration that early death metal quote them as a major influence. Many early death metal groups sound very much like Slayer only a little slower and with the classic death growl. Similarities can be drawn in sound between Slayer and the later inspired groups but this does not make Slayer Death Metal though does it? Metallica were majorly inspired by Motorhead and songs like Phantom Lord off of Kill em all sound just like Motorhead. This does does not make Motorhead "thrash metal" does it? Please this is supposed to be an online encyclopedia based on fact and not peoples opinions. Please use and observe facts like Eric Wagner's quotes. - I can vouch that I personally remember it this way. I can remember reading magazines articles on both black metal and white metal (there was no internet back then so the everyone read the magazine to find out what was new out). Someone must have record of these many articles etc. Metalosaurus ( talk) 19:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
In addition to this Eric Wagner's group Trouble was part of Metal blade records and he is quoting how they originally marketed the term "White Metal" as an opposite to "Black Metal" (which obviously meant 'satanic themed metal'). They wouldn't have definetely been aware of what the terminology in the metal music world would have been seen as by the masses at the time. There was no such thing. Black Metal back then meant something different. The so called second wave is when Black Metal started as a genre. Death Metal bands combined their influence & sound with groups like Venom to make the newer sounding genre" Metalosaurus ( talk) 20:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
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I've reorganised the ideology section. Some elements had been overemphasised. If anyone wants to contest this, feel free to revert it and state your case here. Dark Prime ( talk) 20:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I suppose I can understand that I might have exaggerated the role of Euronymous, but at the same time I have the following reservations:
I'm not sure if I've got all my books in balance at the moment, but I look forward to a response. Dark Prime ( talk) 20:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I insist on Satanism being mentioned at this section’s very beginning. People who have never heard of Black Metal should know that is what the term originally was used for, the (wrong) idea to use the term for Pagan, secular, atheist, nihilist or whatever bands without any connection to Satanism, if they “sound Norwegian”, came after the second wave. Creating a new section for Satanism was okay though, I just disagree with the complete removal, for reasons mentioned above.
Asarlaí asked for the exact quote from the Emperor interview I refer to, being “fairly sure this view wasn't held by *everyone* in the scene”. It was stronger than you seem to believe, but it is correct that it wasn’t “held by *everyone* in the scene”. Here you are. Faust was asked what he considers to be the definition of Black Metal and whether he considered the LaVeyan way and bands that follow it, like Necromantia, to be wrong and not to play Black Metal; he replied that the Satanic lyrics are important, and what some people believe to be the musical definition fits some bands, but that doesn’t mean Black Metal bands have to sound like this (he names Blasphemy, Death SS, Mayhem and Mercyful Fate as examples). And for LaVey, direct quote: “And yes, it is wrong to call bands who follow the path of Anton LaVey for Black Metal. Those who have read the 'Satanic' bible know that LaVey stands for everything that's good in life and the worship of all kinds of pleasures […]. This has absolutely nothing to do with the classical and original form of Satanism (whom the Christians presented). Satanism is a religion on the same level as Christianity and LaVey says that his philosophy is anti religion and he also says you have to be an atheist to be a Satanist. I mean, what's the point? He scorns the old traditional way of Satanism. LaVey and his followers hate Christianity because they are so evil while they (the Satanists) are the good ones. He want's [sic!] to make sure that Satanism gets a good reputation and that it can become something acceptable And this is exactly how it is not meant to be. When people hear the word Satanism they freeze on their backs and they shall be really afraid of the Satanists, who sacrifice children in the name of Satan. The Church of Satan is the complete opposite of this. They are only a family club who wanna make sure that people get the best out of their earthly lives and nothing more than that. About the last question....I don't really think NECROMANTIA label themselves as Black Metal and personally I have never done that, because I think the term Occult/Dark Metal suits them better. They are among my fave bands and each time I listen to I get the impression of something dark and occult. It's not like the feeling you get when you listen to the average Church of Satan band, it is something completely different, something dark, frightening and mystic. Something unknown.” (Emperor. In: Jon Kristiansen: Metalion: The Slayer Mag Diaries. Brooklyn, NY: Bazillion Points Books 2011, p. 274.)
I had stated that Varg Vikernes rejected LaVeyan Satanism, too (besides, this can be seen on the Aske EP’s back cover). In this review, Vikernes claims that “everyone in the Norwegian Black Metal scene regarded Anton LaVey as a ridiculous fool, if they indeed even know who in Earth he was”. I also expect everyone here to know that Vikernes claimed to be a Satanist before he murdered Euronymous and became known for his crude Pagan Nazi ideology (and to know about the lies he has spread since he murdered Euronymous). To quote from this interview from Faust’s Orcustus fanzine: “So-called Church of Satan is not in my views a church of Satan...It's rather a humanistic individualistic organisation who worship happiness and life (for them it's only this life).” There are other quotes from old interviews available, but I am too lazy to look for these now (if anyone actually needs some more, I will give add some more quotes). Metalion doubts Vikernes ever was serious about Satanism, by the way: “First, the churches started to burn in June 1992, beginning with Fantoft stave church on the outskirts of Bergen. Within a couple weeks, Varg Vikernes told us at the Helvete store that he had done it. He made the arson sound like nothing special. He had already been to Stockholm and left the burning threats on Christofer Johnsson of Therion’s door. Even that had seemed like something he did to impress Euronymous. Though he called Therion “life metal” for their early political lyrics, I never saw Varg as a dedicated Satanist. If anything, the Therion guys were probably more serious about occult things than Varg ever was, but that’s not something that can scientifically be gauged. […] Truthfully, some people in our scene read a few books and considered themselves Satanists. In Varg’s case, I wouldn’t say it was much deeper than that. Then he got into some very strange politics, dabbling in Fascism and National Socialism, but he seemed to change his mind all the time.” (Jon Kristiansen: Metalion: The Slayer Mag Diaries, p. 261f.) By the way, at least by now, the Therion members actually are more serious about that than Vikernes ever was, having Thomas Karlsson write lyrics and Ofermod member Belfagor contribute vocals (Din on the last album Sitra Ahra) and considering Therion to be a Black/Death Metal band ( source for that statement), and Johnsson being a Dragon Rouge member.
To confirm that the view was not “held by *everyone* in the scene”, although it was very strong: EsoTerra showed interest in Black Metal and asked Ihsahn, who held Social Darwinist views, what he thought about LaVey and the Church of Satan: “Anton LaVey is a very intelligent man. He, with his church, is very good at getting people into the anti-Christian and Satanic concept. Having his ideologies nicely written out to people so that even the simplest housewife can agree with it. Many of his ideas are very good, others I disagree with. But an individual should think for itself.” (Chad Hensley: Legion of the Night. An interview with Emperor. In: EsoTerra, no. 6, 1995.) In Det svarte alvor, Ihsahn said that music can’t be Black Metal if it is not Satanic. It is obvious he differs from other members since he says he doesn’t need to be destructive. In 1994, Thy Kingdom Come asked Nocturno Culto about the “strong anti-La Vey prpaganda 2 years ago in Norway” and his views on the Church of Satan. His reply: “The council wasn't to happy with some of the points of views coming from La Vey and his "disciples"/followers. Norwegian Black Metallers are not too concerned with La Vey's views, it's different form of atmosphere and satanism up here. We don't bother to go against La Vey, who strongly fights jesus anyway.” And when Fenriz was asked about his interpretation of Satanism by Marc Spermeth ( Ablaze magazine), he replied: „Ich nehme von jedem ein bißchen, so daß es mir paßt, wie ein Schwanz in der Votze [sic!]. […] Satanismus bedeutet für mich, alle dunklen Seiten anzubeten und zu ehren – und natürlich noch eine Menge mehr.“ (Marc Spermeth: Besessen von der Dunkelheit und dem Bösen. In: Ablaze, no. 5, May/June 1995, p. 10.) That means he takes a bit from everything, so that it fits him, ‘like a cock in the cunt’, and that for him, Satanism means to worship all dark sides ‘and of course a lot more’. I don’t know what Ihsahn, Nocturno Culto and Fenriz say about Satanism nowadays, so if anyone knows, tell me (either here or on my talk page). -- 217/ 83 22:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I think we should establish (A) which Norwegians calld themselvs Theistic Satanists at the time, (B) which Norwegians held that "only Theistic Satanists can be BM" at the time [i.e. who actually sayd it in interviews] , and (C) which Norwegians calld their music BM at the time. Then we can choose what to put in the article...
Band | A? | B? | C? |
---|---|---|---|
Abbath (Immortal) | No | ? | No |
Blackthorn (Thorns) | ? | ? | ? |
Carpathian Forest | ? | ? | ? |
Dead (Mayhem) | "I have always been insanely into horror! And when I discovered Satanism I have been insanely interested in that" (see Here) | ? | Yes |
Demonaz (Immortal) | No (interview in (Det svarte alvor) | ? | ? |
Enslaved | ? | ? | No, No |
Euronymous (Mayhem) | Yes | Yes | Yes |
Faust (Emperor) | Yes | Yes | Yes |
Fenriz (Darkthrone) | Claimed to be a Satanist at this time but didn’t mention Theistic Satanism (see here) | ? | Yes, Yes |
Frost (Satyricon) | ? | ? | Yes |
Hades | ? | ? | ? |
Hellhammer (Mayhem) | No (his statements on whether he cared about Satanism are contradictory though) | ? | ? |
Ihsahn (Emperor) | Yes, but he didn’t mention Theistic Satanism (Det svarte alvor, EsoTerra) | Yes (Det svarte alvor) | ? |
Ildjarn | No | Yes | ? |
Mortiis (Emperor) | ? | ? | ? |
Necrobutcher (Mayhem) | ? | ? | ? |
Nocturno (Darkthrone) | ? | ? | Yes, Yes |
Samoth (Emperor/Satyricon) | ? | ? | ? |
Satyr (Satyricon) | ? | ? | Yes |
Varg (Burzum) | "I did call myself a Satanist in a short period in 1992, but I never was a Satanist" (see Here) | Yes | Yes, Yes |
(add to it if you can) ~Asarlaí 03:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Could militarism also be included in the ideology page. I mean, bands like Marduk seem to be very influenced by war and militarism shares some bounderies with nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.147.24.49 ( talk) 12:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
As far as I understand it, Black Metal supports Collectivism far more than it supports Individualism, though, of course, the community that is supported is the "Black Metal scene", or whatever groups bands or musicians may belong to (the "Inner Circle", Les Legions Noires, different countries' individual scenes), rather than a nation, city, neighbourhood, or somesuch community. If we take the Norwegian scene as an example: the Church burnings are an act for the group (or "scene"), not for the individual (though possibly for the individual within the group, as well as for the group itself). I would say that, Black Metal being ostensibly "anti-modernity", at least in its earlier incarnations, a primary message behind the music is that modern society has failed, and that we should revert to systems closer in nature to those of older times, before "Individualism" - that which has now caused this failure of society, the concept that the Individual is greater than the Collective - had come about. ~LR—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.112.166 ( talk) 16:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
To provide sourced content: Benjamin Hedge Olson’s master thesis states that “Black Metal is characterized by a conflict between radical individualism and group identity and by an attempt to accept both polarities simultaneously” and that this conflict “is one of the defining features of black metal culture”. -- 217/ 83 16:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
From the number of times i've been on this page. I have seen this changed from Underground - Largely Underground - Low to Underground - And now Moderate in Norway Low to underground elsewhere. I see this weird as this is seen as an unknown genre that most people dont know about. Just because alot of bands come from norway, dosent mean its very popular amongst norwegians. Alot of bands also come from sweden. Im going to change this Underground. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.212.116 ( talk) 18:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC) I have to agree with the norway thing, but tis definatly not purely underground. I liv ein America and can still walk to walmart and by an Immortal album. And thanks to the internet Black MEtal has spread vastly.
I'm not sure this is really appropriate terminology to be used on this page... I understand what the editor means by the term, but the term is only in extremely fringe use and as such likely to obfuscate rather than clarify the claims in the article. At the moment it is a phrasing being pushed by a solitary editor; few if any theologians recognise the term as legitimate, and as such I suggest we pick different phrasing. Blackmetalbaz ( talk) 12:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I addressed this issue above and will not repeat myself here except to say that bands who oppose Abrahamic faiths on pagan, or racialist or nationalist, grounds do not fit into the same "Left-Hand Path" definition like Satanists and other degenerates do and so the term is therefore too limited as well as being too esoteric given the context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.26.216.65 ( talk) 10:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, it seems that a number of Norwegian bands were playing death metal in the late 80's and early 90's (Darkthrone, Mayhem, and in the cases of Immortal and Burzum, under different band names). At that point they began to feel death metal had exhausted its possibilities, so they utilized techniques that directly opposed death metal: dissonance, very little palm muting, more use of traditional chords, tremolo picking between two strings instead of one, a thin guitar tone, etc. I think this is worth mentioning in the second wave section. 66.142.191.132 ( talk) 17:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Greek black metal scene is small but has a distinctive sound that differs from the rest (norwegian) because of the usage of keyboards which noone had use in those days ( darkthrone). and i think it should at least be mentioned in 2nd wave of black metal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotting_Christ Thats why is called distictively greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.18 ( talk) 11:02, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
yes of course they use keyboards but not since late 80s as greek black metals bands.also the riffing is a bit different. more internationally notable than les legions noires and very well known in the underground scene. http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/rants/6-900_when_hades_strikes.aspx
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Is it appropriate to say that the first wave started in the mid rather than early 1980s, and that the second wave started in Scandinavia? There were plenty of bands outside of Scandinavia and Europe. Dark Prime ( talk) 20:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
One year before Black Metal's release Blue Öyster Cult had a song featured on thier album Fire of Unknown Origin called "Heavy Metal: the Black and Silver.". Albeit Blue Oyster Cult are obvious not a black metal band they were the first to use the term. The song should be mentioned in the article. Rockgenre ( talk) 16:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't the bgcolor be black? It's an extreme genre of heavy metal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.26.49.48 ( talk) 17:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
This is in reference to your comment: "Please do not add promotional material to Wikipedia, as you did to Black metal. While objective prose about products or services is acceptable, Wikipedia is not intended to be a vehicle for advertising or promotion. Thank you. This is the second time you have added this information to thr article, in contravention of wp:coi candyworm (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)"
How does adding a legitimate bibliographic entry under Literature heading fall under advertising or promotion? I did not add link, only information about the volume of essays
Nicolamasciandaro ( talk) 02:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
What about the recent resurgence of black metal in New England? http://www.facebook.com/pages/New-England-Black-Metal/151572928237035 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Totalmindeclipse ( talk • contribs) 08:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Dimmu Borgir should be added in listo of second wave bands. Second wave bands must have some of their realises from 1990. to 1994. (It says that in text above the list of second wave bands). Dimmu Borgir's Inn I Evighetens Morke and For All Tid are realised in 1994. If you want to say that is not Black metal for you then you are very wrong. Or I am wrong? That kind of Black metal was called "Melodic Black metal" until it is deleted and redicted to Black metal. Come on people! It is time to solve that quest. There are many so called "Melodic Black metal" bands which are now Black metal and they realised their records during "Second wave" period. There are two possibilities of solving this quest. First possibility is to make one unique genre for all those bands who used small amount of synths on "Raw Black metal". That style is very different from Symphonic Black metal. SBM uses lot more orchestra and have more cleaner sound. And so called Melodic Black metal is about melody on synths but sound is lot more "raw" and worse sound quality. My opinion about this quest is that we should merge "Ambiental Black metal" and "Melodic Black metal" as one special style in which there should be added all those bands. Black metal should have more styles beacuse it is too anodyned these days. Or Second posibility is to collect all those bands which were realising that kind of black metal and add it to the list of "second wave". Please answerw! It is time to solve this! - Vater-96 ( talk) 14:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
I`ve been following this article and arguing within it too, for a quite since. I still think it`s a mess, having some really stubbornly childish debate going on occasionally. I think some progress might be done on it by cleaning the insignificant and ideological details of it. Any change will of course arouse anger and I suggest starting by clearing some of this page, for it to be more accessible and inspiring, for example by erasing some dead topics, which seem to be dealt with or just faded without response... FINginga ( talk) 15:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Other bands emerged after the “first wave” and at the same time as or even before the Norwegian bands, some of them were not even influenced by Mayhem (eycept Mayhem, there was almost no Norwegian Black Metal band around before 1991): Blasphemy (influences named here), Samael, VON, Rotting Christ (influences named on the band’s own Myspace page), Beherit (influences named here and there, actually including some second wave bands that were not from Norway), Impaled Nazarene (influences named here), Root, Ancient Rites etc. (those who know about Black Metal’s history should know that). I will therefore restore my version of that sentence. We should also include a little section on the time between both generations since there were bands that came between those but held the tradition. In my opinion, bands like Sarcófago are not a part of the first generation but of this meantime (and the 1987 issue of Metalion’s Slayer fanzine, a very important source for extreme Metal, shows the Black Metal wave was considered to have ended). -- 217/ 83 10:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Some info in the "vocals and lyrics" section is repeated in the "ideology" section. I think it would be best if we use the "vocals and lyrics" section to summarize blackmetal lyrics/ideology. We can use the "ideology" section to go into more detail. ~Asarlaí 06:16, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I would like to see a citation for Hardcore as an origin. Of course Hardcore influenced Thrash Metal, but had no significant role as a direct influence on any kind of Black Metal; “second wave” Black Metal artists despised Hardcore for ideological reasons. I would also like to see a citation for Speed Metal; New Wave of British Heavy Metal as a stylistic origin is obvious (Venom) as is Thrash Metal. -- 91.60.179.157 ( talk) 05:17, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
I hope someone can explain to me what makes black metal "underground" according to Wikipedia.
To the best of my knowledge, black metal is very popular music, and one of the most popular forms of metal. Sure, black metal is popular among a select demographic (outsider 20-something white males), but this still makes it one of the most popular forms of music out there.
The market for black metal is much larger than the market for many other forms of music, is it really true then that this is underground music?.
Consider for example that "ethereal wave" is listed as being small to moderate in mainstream popularity on Wikipedia. Yet I get 159,000 hits for "ethereal wave" on Google, compared to 43,800,000 for black metal. How then is black metal not mainstream music?
If I wanted to see black metal in my country, I could probably go to a show this month, perhaps I wouldn't even have to leave my own city. I don't think I can say the same about "Ethereal wave", "Dream pop", or any of the other forms of music that are seen as having low popularity in the mainstream by Wikipedia.
Hence my question is, when we refer to Black metal as being "underground" outside of Scandinavia, what does this mean? Is it a way of warning readers that they have to dress up "alternative" when they plan on visiting a show? Is it an inaccurate way of defining how popular it is?
Right now it appears to me that "mainstream popularity" on Wikipedia articles refers to how fans of a genre like to think of themselves, it has little to do with how popular the music actually is.
People who feel rebellious and different unanimously agree on Wikipedia that their favorite musical genre is "underground", while people who like to think of themselves as pretty normal people claim that they favorite genre is "low to moderate" in popularity.
If it seems like I'm rambling, my point is as following:
-Could someone explain and defend the listing of black metal and other genres of music as "underground". Are sources or specific criteria used for this, or is it purely arbitrary and determined by consensus of followers of specific pages who like to think of their favorite music as being "underground"?
Counteraction ( talk) 21:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Since black metal is a genre, it is not capitalised, although in this case "black" is capitalised as it is the start of the quote. From my experience of editing, it is not necessary/a rule to retain the exact source formatting/punctuation/grammar for quotes – as long as the actual text being quoted isn't altered. Lachlan Foley ( talk) 21:50, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
On 31 October, a photo of Urgehal guitarist Enzifer will be Wikipedia's "Picture of the Day". This article—along with Urgehal, corpse paint and Early Norwegian black metal scene—will be on Wikipedia's main page. I copied the following from Talk:Urgehal:
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Urgehal Metal Mean Festival 20 08 2011 10.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on October 31, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-10-31. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! — howcheng { chat} 06:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
~Asarlaí 16:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
There are rumours that Jon Nödtveidt himself answered the MLO interview (I think Metalion wrote something about that in his book; I have to check that when I have the time); that would fit since he used the name “Shadow” while contributing to Slayer no. 10 (1995) and Ophthalamia. Nödtveidt knew Euronymous; he was a member of the Norwegian Black Circle, his bands were among the few Euronymous liked, and they performed The Freezing Moon together in Askim in 1991 (see Dissection’s biography). -- 217/ 83 17:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The information regarding the Middle-Eastern band Janaza should probably be removed due to the controversy surrounding the artist, and especially since no citations are given in the first place. The picture of the artist that has been circulating was found out to have been stolen and manipulated, and not much is known about the artist's legitimacy. 209.250.204.138 ( talk) 21:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
One would think an entry on black metal would mention that Mayhem started in 1984 and had demos and an EP in 1986 and 1987, the article kinda makes it sound like they started in 1990 or 1991. I also think it is worth mentioning that many Black Metal bands (Darkthrone) and musicians (Grishnack, guys from Immortal, etc) played death metal before "converting" to black metal. Gary Sargent, garyleejr@outlook.com 74.78.154.65 ( talk) 01:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Gary Sargent, garyleejr@outlook.com
I think it is nonsense to separate the stylistic divisions from the characteristics and the ideology from the lyrics by putting the history section between them. I also would like to start a paragraph on the Greek style but am not sure where to include it (not the history section!) nor how to merge the stylistic divisions and characteristics sections, so I thought I should ask first. -- 217/ 83 13:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
No, it's just like zubrowka said. Greek and Norweian ones are just regional scenes that have some particular characteristics within the genre, but that is only applied to that scene with few exceptions. Just like Swedish Death Metal, Teutonic Thrash Metal, Bay Area Thrash Metal, Finnish Doom Metal, etc. But War metal is a substyle, a subgenre of this one, sharing some common characteristics of the main genre, but introducing something new. However, a subgenre like War metal is not related with an particular region or scene, being spread around the world without a niche, like anothers subgenres (Stoner metal, Sludge metal, Death/doom, Deathgrind, Viking metal, Deathcore, etc.). ABC paulista ( talk) 18:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
I still have to look for some more War Metal-related references, but it’s not forgotten. -- 217/ 83 13:46, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
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Don't remove Denmark. Denmark is a part of Scandinavia and have lots of black-metal bands too. I don't understand why somebody don't want them within, but they got Illnath, Nortt and Sort Regn. Their important for Greenland, Iceland and Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.165.247 ( talk) 13:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Do not remove Lucifugum and Nokturnal Mortum from "The second Wave of Black Metal". Ukrainian scene is not less important and known than Polish or French scene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Black pauk1488 ( talk • contribs) 05:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
i think under the history section the banning of black metal in malaysia should be mentioned Malacath ( talk) 16:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Black metal used to mean any group that sung Satanic lyrics. The oposite being white metal which was groups that sung lyrics about the Bible. When Venom released the album "Black metal" it was reference to it being evil / satanic.
Its like saying Helloween are first wave Death Metal as they appeared on an album titled "Death Metal". Everyone knows Helloween aren't Death metal the same way everyone remembers Venom were part of the NWOBHM. Venom sound more like Motorhead only with poorer recording quality and production - Motorhead were a much bigger band with bigger label support.
The relatively new genre taking the name "Black Metal" evolved from Death Metal groups who took a large influence from groups like Venom. Black metal as a genre / sub-genre of extreme metal music started not with Venom etc but was started much later and was greatly influenced by Venom etc.
Quote: Wikipedia "White Metal"
"Eric Wagner himself has commented on marketing the band as white metal:
It was Metal Blade. Back then they called all of it ´Black Metal´, y´know, Slayer, Danzig, etc., all those bands, they are ´Black Metal´, so I didn't grow up believing in all that crap and I think that people didn't believe in it either. It was a question about marketing your band in some way, so I had to do it. So I did this. Metal Blade called us as a “White Metal band” and I just wished they didn't.[3]"
End Quote
I was around then and I read all the magazines (internet wasn't around so we all read the magazines to get the latest info) and I went to many metal clubs and concerts. As Eric puts it is exactly as I remember it. Those trying to say it was a genre were obviously not around at the time. Metalosaurus ( talk) 17:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Pagen HD ( talk) 10:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Type in bold as much as makes you feel good, lol. (I have edited the top comment to also use bold my main points - and have signed it) If you are able to read the quote / remark made by Troubles singer 'Eric Wagner' then you will notice he is referring to how it was back in those days. I was there and it is exactly as I remember it. Venom started the term "Black Metal" and it was not seen as a genre but a reference to 'Satanic Metal'. Just as Trouble were seen as "White Metal". Trouble were not Christians anymore than groups such as Slayer were satanic. Its just the name that was being used by the fans and the magazines. Eric Wagner was commenting on how "White Metal" evolved - as an opposite to "Black Metal". If "Black Metal" back in the 80s & early 90s didn't refer to satanic metal then WTF is "White Metal" and how did it come around??!! It seems very strange and if not way toooo coincidental that white is the opposite to black and white metal came after black metal. Isn't also strange how people around at the time (including Eric Wagner) remember black metal as satanic / satanic themed metal and white metal as Christian / biblical themed metal?!! When the genre now referred to as "Black Metal" came around it was made by much later groups who were raised on genres such Death Metal as much as they were influenced by NWOBHM groups such as Venom and their sound was a combination of the two.
Yes obviously Slayer are obviously thrash and it is a good illustration that early death metal quote them as a major influence. Many early death metal groups sound very much like Slayer only a little slower and with the classic death growl. Similarities can be drawn in sound between Slayer and the later inspired groups but this does not make Slayer Death Metal though does it? Metallica were majorly inspired by Motorhead and songs like Phantom Lord off of Kill em all sound just like Motorhead. This does does not make Motorhead "thrash metal" does it? Please this is supposed to be an online encyclopedia based on fact and not peoples opinions. Please use and observe facts like Eric Wagner's quotes. - I can vouch that I personally remember it this way. I can remember reading magazines articles on both black metal and white metal (there was no internet back then so the everyone read the magazine to find out what was new out). Someone must have record of these many articles etc. Metalosaurus ( talk) 19:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
In addition to this Eric Wagner's group Trouble was part of Metal blade records and he is quoting how they originally marketed the term "White Metal" as an opposite to "Black Metal" (which obviously meant 'satanic themed metal'). They wouldn't have definetely been aware of what the terminology in the metal music world would have been seen as by the masses at the time. There was no such thing. Black Metal back then meant something different. The so called second wave is when Black Metal started as a genre. Death Metal bands combined their influence & sound with groups like Venom to make the newer sounding genre" Metalosaurus ( talk) 20:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
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I've reorganised the ideology section. Some elements had been overemphasised. If anyone wants to contest this, feel free to revert it and state your case here. Dark Prime ( talk) 20:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I suppose I can understand that I might have exaggerated the role of Euronymous, but at the same time I have the following reservations:
I'm not sure if I've got all my books in balance at the moment, but I look forward to a response. Dark Prime ( talk) 20:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I insist on Satanism being mentioned at this section’s very beginning. People who have never heard of Black Metal should know that is what the term originally was used for, the (wrong) idea to use the term for Pagan, secular, atheist, nihilist or whatever bands without any connection to Satanism, if they “sound Norwegian”, came after the second wave. Creating a new section for Satanism was okay though, I just disagree with the complete removal, for reasons mentioned above.
Asarlaí asked for the exact quote from the Emperor interview I refer to, being “fairly sure this view wasn't held by *everyone* in the scene”. It was stronger than you seem to believe, but it is correct that it wasn’t “held by *everyone* in the scene”. Here you are. Faust was asked what he considers to be the definition of Black Metal and whether he considered the LaVeyan way and bands that follow it, like Necromantia, to be wrong and not to play Black Metal; he replied that the Satanic lyrics are important, and what some people believe to be the musical definition fits some bands, but that doesn’t mean Black Metal bands have to sound like this (he names Blasphemy, Death SS, Mayhem and Mercyful Fate as examples). And for LaVey, direct quote: “And yes, it is wrong to call bands who follow the path of Anton LaVey for Black Metal. Those who have read the 'Satanic' bible know that LaVey stands for everything that's good in life and the worship of all kinds of pleasures […]. This has absolutely nothing to do with the classical and original form of Satanism (whom the Christians presented). Satanism is a religion on the same level as Christianity and LaVey says that his philosophy is anti religion and he also says you have to be an atheist to be a Satanist. I mean, what's the point? He scorns the old traditional way of Satanism. LaVey and his followers hate Christianity because they are so evil while they (the Satanists) are the good ones. He want's [sic!] to make sure that Satanism gets a good reputation and that it can become something acceptable And this is exactly how it is not meant to be. When people hear the word Satanism they freeze on their backs and they shall be really afraid of the Satanists, who sacrifice children in the name of Satan. The Church of Satan is the complete opposite of this. They are only a family club who wanna make sure that people get the best out of their earthly lives and nothing more than that. About the last question....I don't really think NECROMANTIA label themselves as Black Metal and personally I have never done that, because I think the term Occult/Dark Metal suits them better. They are among my fave bands and each time I listen to I get the impression of something dark and occult. It's not like the feeling you get when you listen to the average Church of Satan band, it is something completely different, something dark, frightening and mystic. Something unknown.” (Emperor. In: Jon Kristiansen: Metalion: The Slayer Mag Diaries. Brooklyn, NY: Bazillion Points Books 2011, p. 274.)
I had stated that Varg Vikernes rejected LaVeyan Satanism, too (besides, this can be seen on the Aske EP’s back cover). In this review, Vikernes claims that “everyone in the Norwegian Black Metal scene regarded Anton LaVey as a ridiculous fool, if they indeed even know who in Earth he was”. I also expect everyone here to know that Vikernes claimed to be a Satanist before he murdered Euronymous and became known for his crude Pagan Nazi ideology (and to know about the lies he has spread since he murdered Euronymous). To quote from this interview from Faust’s Orcustus fanzine: “So-called Church of Satan is not in my views a church of Satan...It's rather a humanistic individualistic organisation who worship happiness and life (for them it's only this life).” There are other quotes from old interviews available, but I am too lazy to look for these now (if anyone actually needs some more, I will give add some more quotes). Metalion doubts Vikernes ever was serious about Satanism, by the way: “First, the churches started to burn in June 1992, beginning with Fantoft stave church on the outskirts of Bergen. Within a couple weeks, Varg Vikernes told us at the Helvete store that he had done it. He made the arson sound like nothing special. He had already been to Stockholm and left the burning threats on Christofer Johnsson of Therion’s door. Even that had seemed like something he did to impress Euronymous. Though he called Therion “life metal” for their early political lyrics, I never saw Varg as a dedicated Satanist. If anything, the Therion guys were probably more serious about occult things than Varg ever was, but that’s not something that can scientifically be gauged. […] Truthfully, some people in our scene read a few books and considered themselves Satanists. In Varg’s case, I wouldn’t say it was much deeper than that. Then he got into some very strange politics, dabbling in Fascism and National Socialism, but he seemed to change his mind all the time.” (Jon Kristiansen: Metalion: The Slayer Mag Diaries, p. 261f.) By the way, at least by now, the Therion members actually are more serious about that than Vikernes ever was, having Thomas Karlsson write lyrics and Ofermod member Belfagor contribute vocals (Din on the last album Sitra Ahra) and considering Therion to be a Black/Death Metal band ( source for that statement), and Johnsson being a Dragon Rouge member.
To confirm that the view was not “held by *everyone* in the scene”, although it was very strong: EsoTerra showed interest in Black Metal and asked Ihsahn, who held Social Darwinist views, what he thought about LaVey and the Church of Satan: “Anton LaVey is a very intelligent man. He, with his church, is very good at getting people into the anti-Christian and Satanic concept. Having his ideologies nicely written out to people so that even the simplest housewife can agree with it. Many of his ideas are very good, others I disagree with. But an individual should think for itself.” (Chad Hensley: Legion of the Night. An interview with Emperor. In: EsoTerra, no. 6, 1995.) In Det svarte alvor, Ihsahn said that music can’t be Black Metal if it is not Satanic. It is obvious he differs from other members since he says he doesn’t need to be destructive. In 1994, Thy Kingdom Come asked Nocturno Culto about the “strong anti-La Vey prpaganda 2 years ago in Norway” and his views on the Church of Satan. His reply: “The council wasn't to happy with some of the points of views coming from La Vey and his "disciples"/followers. Norwegian Black Metallers are not too concerned with La Vey's views, it's different form of atmosphere and satanism up here. We don't bother to go against La Vey, who strongly fights jesus anyway.” And when Fenriz was asked about his interpretation of Satanism by Marc Spermeth ( Ablaze magazine), he replied: „Ich nehme von jedem ein bißchen, so daß es mir paßt, wie ein Schwanz in der Votze [sic!]. […] Satanismus bedeutet für mich, alle dunklen Seiten anzubeten und zu ehren – und natürlich noch eine Menge mehr.“ (Marc Spermeth: Besessen von der Dunkelheit und dem Bösen. In: Ablaze, no. 5, May/June 1995, p. 10.) That means he takes a bit from everything, so that it fits him, ‘like a cock in the cunt’, and that for him, Satanism means to worship all dark sides ‘and of course a lot more’. I don’t know what Ihsahn, Nocturno Culto and Fenriz say about Satanism nowadays, so if anyone knows, tell me (either here or on my talk page). -- 217/ 83 22:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I think we should establish (A) which Norwegians calld themselvs Theistic Satanists at the time, (B) which Norwegians held that "only Theistic Satanists can be BM" at the time [i.e. who actually sayd it in interviews] , and (C) which Norwegians calld their music BM at the time. Then we can choose what to put in the article...
Band | A? | B? | C? |
---|---|---|---|
Abbath (Immortal) | No | ? | No |
Blackthorn (Thorns) | ? | ? | ? |
Carpathian Forest | ? | ? | ? |
Dead (Mayhem) | "I have always been insanely into horror! And when I discovered Satanism I have been insanely interested in that" (see Here) | ? | Yes |
Demonaz (Immortal) | No (interview in (Det svarte alvor) | ? | ? |
Enslaved | ? | ? | No, No |
Euronymous (Mayhem) | Yes | Yes | Yes |
Faust (Emperor) | Yes | Yes | Yes |
Fenriz (Darkthrone) | Claimed to be a Satanist at this time but didn’t mention Theistic Satanism (see here) | ? | Yes, Yes |
Frost (Satyricon) | ? | ? | Yes |
Hades | ? | ? | ? |
Hellhammer (Mayhem) | No (his statements on whether he cared about Satanism are contradictory though) | ? | ? |
Ihsahn (Emperor) | Yes, but he didn’t mention Theistic Satanism (Det svarte alvor, EsoTerra) | Yes (Det svarte alvor) | ? |
Ildjarn | No | Yes | ? |
Mortiis (Emperor) | ? | ? | ? |
Necrobutcher (Mayhem) | ? | ? | ? |
Nocturno (Darkthrone) | ? | ? | Yes, Yes |
Samoth (Emperor/Satyricon) | ? | ? | ? |
Satyr (Satyricon) | ? | ? | Yes |
Varg (Burzum) | "I did call myself a Satanist in a short period in 1992, but I never was a Satanist" (see Here) | Yes | Yes, Yes |
(add to it if you can) ~Asarlaí 03:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Could militarism also be included in the ideology page. I mean, bands like Marduk seem to be very influenced by war and militarism shares some bounderies with nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.147.24.49 ( talk) 12:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
As far as I understand it, Black Metal supports Collectivism far more than it supports Individualism, though, of course, the community that is supported is the "Black Metal scene", or whatever groups bands or musicians may belong to (the "Inner Circle", Les Legions Noires, different countries' individual scenes), rather than a nation, city, neighbourhood, or somesuch community. If we take the Norwegian scene as an example: the Church burnings are an act for the group (or "scene"), not for the individual (though possibly for the individual within the group, as well as for the group itself). I would say that, Black Metal being ostensibly "anti-modernity", at least in its earlier incarnations, a primary message behind the music is that modern society has failed, and that we should revert to systems closer in nature to those of older times, before "Individualism" - that which has now caused this failure of society, the concept that the Individual is greater than the Collective - had come about. ~LR—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.112.166 ( talk) 16:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
To provide sourced content: Benjamin Hedge Olson’s master thesis states that “Black Metal is characterized by a conflict between radical individualism and group identity and by an attempt to accept both polarities simultaneously” and that this conflict “is one of the defining features of black metal culture”. -- 217/ 83 16:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
From the number of times i've been on this page. I have seen this changed from Underground - Largely Underground - Low to Underground - And now Moderate in Norway Low to underground elsewhere. I see this weird as this is seen as an unknown genre that most people dont know about. Just because alot of bands come from norway, dosent mean its very popular amongst norwegians. Alot of bands also come from sweden. Im going to change this Underground. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.212.116 ( talk) 18:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC) I have to agree with the norway thing, but tis definatly not purely underground. I liv ein America and can still walk to walmart and by an Immortal album. And thanks to the internet Black MEtal has spread vastly.
I'm not sure this is really appropriate terminology to be used on this page... I understand what the editor means by the term, but the term is only in extremely fringe use and as such likely to obfuscate rather than clarify the claims in the article. At the moment it is a phrasing being pushed by a solitary editor; few if any theologians recognise the term as legitimate, and as such I suggest we pick different phrasing. Blackmetalbaz ( talk) 12:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I addressed this issue above and will not repeat myself here except to say that bands who oppose Abrahamic faiths on pagan, or racialist or nationalist, grounds do not fit into the same "Left-Hand Path" definition like Satanists and other degenerates do and so the term is therefore too limited as well as being too esoteric given the context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.26.216.65 ( talk) 10:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, it seems that a number of Norwegian bands were playing death metal in the late 80's and early 90's (Darkthrone, Mayhem, and in the cases of Immortal and Burzum, under different band names). At that point they began to feel death metal had exhausted its possibilities, so they utilized techniques that directly opposed death metal: dissonance, very little palm muting, more use of traditional chords, tremolo picking between two strings instead of one, a thin guitar tone, etc. I think this is worth mentioning in the second wave section. 66.142.191.132 ( talk) 17:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Greek black metal scene is small but has a distinctive sound that differs from the rest (norwegian) because of the usage of keyboards which noone had use in those days ( darkthrone). and i think it should at least be mentioned in 2nd wave of black metal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotting_Christ Thats why is called distictively greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.18 ( talk) 11:02, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
yes of course they use keyboards but not since late 80s as greek black metals bands.also the riffing is a bit different. more internationally notable than les legions noires and very well known in the underground scene. http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/rants/6-900_when_hades_strikes.aspx
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Is it appropriate to say that the first wave started in the mid rather than early 1980s, and that the second wave started in Scandinavia? There were plenty of bands outside of Scandinavia and Europe. Dark Prime ( talk) 20:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
One year before Black Metal's release Blue Öyster Cult had a song featured on thier album Fire of Unknown Origin called "Heavy Metal: the Black and Silver.". Albeit Blue Oyster Cult are obvious not a black metal band they were the first to use the term. The song should be mentioned in the article. Rockgenre ( talk) 16:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't the bgcolor be black? It's an extreme genre of heavy metal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.26.49.48 ( talk) 17:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
This is in reference to your comment: "Please do not add promotional material to Wikipedia, as you did to Black metal. While objective prose about products or services is acceptable, Wikipedia is not intended to be a vehicle for advertising or promotion. Thank you. This is the second time you have added this information to thr article, in contravention of wp:coi candyworm (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)"
How does adding a legitimate bibliographic entry under Literature heading fall under advertising or promotion? I did not add link, only information about the volume of essays
Nicolamasciandaro ( talk) 02:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
What about the recent resurgence of black metal in New England? http://www.facebook.com/pages/New-England-Black-Metal/151572928237035 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Totalmindeclipse ( talk • contribs) 08:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Dimmu Borgir should be added in listo of second wave bands. Second wave bands must have some of their realises from 1990. to 1994. (It says that in text above the list of second wave bands). Dimmu Borgir's Inn I Evighetens Morke and For All Tid are realised in 1994. If you want to say that is not Black metal for you then you are very wrong. Or I am wrong? That kind of Black metal was called "Melodic Black metal" until it is deleted and redicted to Black metal. Come on people! It is time to solve that quest. There are many so called "Melodic Black metal" bands which are now Black metal and they realised their records during "Second wave" period. There are two possibilities of solving this quest. First possibility is to make one unique genre for all those bands who used small amount of synths on "Raw Black metal". That style is very different from Symphonic Black metal. SBM uses lot more orchestra and have more cleaner sound. And so called Melodic Black metal is about melody on synths but sound is lot more "raw" and worse sound quality. My opinion about this quest is that we should merge "Ambiental Black metal" and "Melodic Black metal" as one special style in which there should be added all those bands. Black metal should have more styles beacuse it is too anodyned these days. Or Second posibility is to collect all those bands which were realising that kind of black metal and add it to the list of "second wave". Please answerw! It is time to solve this! - Vater-96 ( talk) 14:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
I`ve been following this article and arguing within it too, for a quite since. I still think it`s a mess, having some really stubbornly childish debate going on occasionally. I think some progress might be done on it by cleaning the insignificant and ideological details of it. Any change will of course arouse anger and I suggest starting by clearing some of this page, for it to be more accessible and inspiring, for example by erasing some dead topics, which seem to be dealt with or just faded without response... FINginga ( talk) 15:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Other bands emerged after the “first wave” and at the same time as or even before the Norwegian bands, some of them were not even influenced by Mayhem (eycept Mayhem, there was almost no Norwegian Black Metal band around before 1991): Blasphemy (influences named here), Samael, VON, Rotting Christ (influences named on the band’s own Myspace page), Beherit (influences named here and there, actually including some second wave bands that were not from Norway), Impaled Nazarene (influences named here), Root, Ancient Rites etc. (those who know about Black Metal’s history should know that). I will therefore restore my version of that sentence. We should also include a little section on the time between both generations since there were bands that came between those but held the tradition. In my opinion, bands like Sarcófago are not a part of the first generation but of this meantime (and the 1987 issue of Metalion’s Slayer fanzine, a very important source for extreme Metal, shows the Black Metal wave was considered to have ended). -- 217/ 83 10:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Some info in the "vocals and lyrics" section is repeated in the "ideology" section. I think it would be best if we use the "vocals and lyrics" section to summarize blackmetal lyrics/ideology. We can use the "ideology" section to go into more detail. ~Asarlaí 06:16, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I would like to see a citation for Hardcore as an origin. Of course Hardcore influenced Thrash Metal, but had no significant role as a direct influence on any kind of Black Metal; “second wave” Black Metal artists despised Hardcore for ideological reasons. I would also like to see a citation for Speed Metal; New Wave of British Heavy Metal as a stylistic origin is obvious (Venom) as is Thrash Metal. -- 91.60.179.157 ( talk) 05:17, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
I hope someone can explain to me what makes black metal "underground" according to Wikipedia.
To the best of my knowledge, black metal is very popular music, and one of the most popular forms of metal. Sure, black metal is popular among a select demographic (outsider 20-something white males), but this still makes it one of the most popular forms of music out there.
The market for black metal is much larger than the market for many other forms of music, is it really true then that this is underground music?.
Consider for example that "ethereal wave" is listed as being small to moderate in mainstream popularity on Wikipedia. Yet I get 159,000 hits for "ethereal wave" on Google, compared to 43,800,000 for black metal. How then is black metal not mainstream music?
If I wanted to see black metal in my country, I could probably go to a show this month, perhaps I wouldn't even have to leave my own city. I don't think I can say the same about "Ethereal wave", "Dream pop", or any of the other forms of music that are seen as having low popularity in the mainstream by Wikipedia.
Hence my question is, when we refer to Black metal as being "underground" outside of Scandinavia, what does this mean? Is it a way of warning readers that they have to dress up "alternative" when they plan on visiting a show? Is it an inaccurate way of defining how popular it is?
Right now it appears to me that "mainstream popularity" on Wikipedia articles refers to how fans of a genre like to think of themselves, it has little to do with how popular the music actually is.
People who feel rebellious and different unanimously agree on Wikipedia that their favorite musical genre is "underground", while people who like to think of themselves as pretty normal people claim that they favorite genre is "low to moderate" in popularity.
If it seems like I'm rambling, my point is as following:
-Could someone explain and defend the listing of black metal and other genres of music as "underground". Are sources or specific criteria used for this, or is it purely arbitrary and determined by consensus of followers of specific pages who like to think of their favorite music as being "underground"?
Counteraction ( talk) 21:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Since black metal is a genre, it is not capitalised, although in this case "black" is capitalised as it is the start of the quote. From my experience of editing, it is not necessary/a rule to retain the exact source formatting/punctuation/grammar for quotes – as long as the actual text being quoted isn't altered. Lachlan Foley ( talk) 21:50, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
On 31 October, a photo of Urgehal guitarist Enzifer will be Wikipedia's "Picture of the Day". This article—along with Urgehal, corpse paint and Early Norwegian black metal scene—will be on Wikipedia's main page. I copied the following from Talk:Urgehal:
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Urgehal Metal Mean Festival 20 08 2011 10.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on October 31, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-10-31. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! — howcheng { chat} 06:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
~Asarlaí 16:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
There are rumours that Jon Nödtveidt himself answered the MLO interview (I think Metalion wrote something about that in his book; I have to check that when I have the time); that would fit since he used the name “Shadow” while contributing to Slayer no. 10 (1995) and Ophthalamia. Nödtveidt knew Euronymous; he was a member of the Norwegian Black Circle, his bands were among the few Euronymous liked, and they performed The Freezing Moon together in Askim in 1991 (see Dissection’s biography). -- 217/ 83 17:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The information regarding the Middle-Eastern band Janaza should probably be removed due to the controversy surrounding the artist, and especially since no citations are given in the first place. The picture of the artist that has been circulating was found out to have been stolen and manipulated, and not much is known about the artist's legitimacy. 209.250.204.138 ( talk) 21:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
One would think an entry on black metal would mention that Mayhem started in 1984 and had demos and an EP in 1986 and 1987, the article kinda makes it sound like they started in 1990 or 1991. I also think it is worth mentioning that many Black Metal bands (Darkthrone) and musicians (Grishnack, guys from Immortal, etc) played death metal before "converting" to black metal. Gary Sargent, garyleejr@outlook.com 74.78.154.65 ( talk) 01:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Gary Sargent, garyleejr@outlook.com
I think it is nonsense to separate the stylistic divisions from the characteristics and the ideology from the lyrics by putting the history section between them. I also would like to start a paragraph on the Greek style but am not sure where to include it (not the history section!) nor how to merge the stylistic divisions and characteristics sections, so I thought I should ask first. -- 217/ 83 13:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
No, it's just like zubrowka said. Greek and Norweian ones are just regional scenes that have some particular characteristics within the genre, but that is only applied to that scene with few exceptions. Just like Swedish Death Metal, Teutonic Thrash Metal, Bay Area Thrash Metal, Finnish Doom Metal, etc. But War metal is a substyle, a subgenre of this one, sharing some common characteristics of the main genre, but introducing something new. However, a subgenre like War metal is not related with an particular region or scene, being spread around the world without a niche, like anothers subgenres (Stoner metal, Sludge metal, Death/doom, Deathgrind, Viking metal, Deathcore, etc.). ABC paulista ( talk) 18:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
I still have to look for some more War Metal-related references, but it’s not forgotten. -- 217/ 83 13:46, 1 September 2013 (UTC)