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Archive from February 2002 to May 2006.
Yeah, in regard to the topic title. What the hell does misclencious mean? It is not a word. Did you mean miscellaneous? C'mon, learn how to spell. You might as well write miscell-anus then, duh.
I think there's an interesting article on this site regarding the connections between Black Metal and Punk. However, it's impossible to link directly to it. (The article is called "Punk'd", just scroll down) http://basementbar.com/EditorialN1.asp?ID=30
WTH
It must be said that anybody who believes that Venom 'invented' black metal has no idea what they are talking about. Venom influenced, or perhaps even inspired, black metal, but they definitely were not themselves. It is fair to say that Venom started thrash metal, but not black metal.
Leyasu, what did you mean with "Thrash metal originating before Black Metal"? Venom released the first Black Metal albums, and Venom again inspired Thrash Metal bands (as well as other Black Metal bands). Which Thrash Metal band came before Venom released "Welcome to Hell"??
Here's a quote from Malcolm Dome that hihglights this: "But Venom started it all. Without them thrash may never have existed" "Whatever they say about us, Venom were the first in the field. They started the whole thrash movement" - Lars Ulrich, Metallica Both quotes from the book "Thrash Metal"(1990, Omnibus Press) I see from the Thrash Metal article that there were some metal music before Venom that did have some Thrash riffing, but this was not bona fide Thrash Metal. If Black Metal really derived from Thrash Metal, then this needs to be substantiated. WTH
Instead of deleting information that I provide proof for, you may take your time to provide facts stating otherwise. WTH One band doesnt define a genre nor its roots. I will also point out that Metallica made outrageous, untrue claims about Napster users, and Kerrang has made outrageous claims such as Mortiis being a Gothic Metal mastermind and Linkin Park being Death Metal. I suggest you find less POV, less inaccurate, less market the band that pays us most, sources. Leyasu 17:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
WTH I am not being funny with you WTH. But this argument has gone on several times had has been part of vandalism many times. My intrest is only in making the better article, it isnt personal. If you find more sources, and give the links here so all can read them, the article can be changed easily. It is simply a case of trying to protect against vandalism, that is all. Sorry if i come across as making this personal between us. Leyasu 00:13, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's the truth as is written on Lord's of Chaos by Michael Mohnihan and Dodrik Soederlind: The primary sources Euronymous(Mayhem) based his music on was the name and grittines of Venom's Black metal album (which by no means is black metal, it is only a gritty NWOBHM album) and the late Bathory (a band that can jump to any genre they want to, but considered Death Metal) secondary sources are Mercyful Fate(king diamond), Hellhammer and Celtic Frost among other bands. In no way did Venom invent black metal as it was only their album's name so they need to be removed from the originators of black metal along with the rest of the bands for only one of those bands actually played black metal, that band being Mayhem.
- This is ridiculous. By black metal, we mean the style of music which became popular amongst certain Norwegian bands in the late 80s/early 90s (Mayhem, Darkthrone, Burzum, etc), and derivates there of. Venom did not play in this style. Venom played thrash metal, and though they, along with bands such as Mercyful Fate and Celtic Frost, had some influence on black metal, they were definitely not the first black metal band. If any band should be credited as the originator of black metal, it should be Bathory.
Hi, just a question. It is said in the article that Euronymous planned to use the picture he took of Deads corpse as an album cover. AFAIK it was stolen by a guy from a label Euronymous had trouble with. This guy used it as cover for a black metal sampler. I have this information from a german blackmetal magazine called Ablaze. I still have it and can look it up, starting to search for it later. But maybe they were just misinformed... Overall a well done article!
Hey, sorry to wake you up, but what the heck did you mean by putting Isengard into "Tolkien Metal"? I know that the name Isengard was taken from Tolkien, but Fenriz plays something more folkish than Tolkienesque. Or did you mean the other, less known Isengard from Sweden? If that's the case, then it's okay with me, heh.
Removed "racist" bit, as it is opinionated. Added more information for band: Immortal. Section on Slavic bands is a bit misinforming about the major bands, will consider changing Oligopod
What about the face paint?
Well, actually Corpse Paint was used only by some Black Metal bands ( Marduk ) and included white skin, black lipstick and black/gray shade around the eyes, all messily applied to simulate the dead look. Other bands ( see Immortal ) used what they called War Paint which was much more oppulent consisting of big black drawings applied around eyes and mouth. And sure enough, there's the third cattegory of bands who wore the make-up for no other reason but the show or because of the trend... regards! Ulfednar 05:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need distinct articles about subgenres of a Metal subgenre or is it better to describe them in the main article? Expecially since Vikings, battles, middle ages and Tolkien's works are quite a common theme in most Metal subgenres and therefore the names could be misleading. Valhalla
I do think we need separate articles. You describe everything thats common to Black metal and its sub-genres in the Black metal-page, and then on each sub-genre page you describe what makes this sub-genre uniqe. sandos
I certainly haven't heard titles like "Tolkien metal" or "Suicidal black metal" being used to describe cohesive and musically distinct sub-genres outside of Wikipedia. In the cases of troll metal, Tolkien metal and the like, they seem to refer to the lyrical content of the bands in question, which is a tad absurd since rock bands have taken inspiration from Tolkien's works ever since Led Zeppelin's first album. Black Sabbath were lyrically inspired by Dennis Wheatley, but no-one ever called them "Wheatley metal" did they?
NSBM seems a slightly less unnecessary distinction as it is a cohesive musical movement, particularly in eastern Europe, and it is a generally unified ideology (however immature and unsound that ideology may seem to yours truly), but I'd still strongly suggest that it be merged with the main article on black metal. belzub
It's the nature of modern rock music that it propagates sub genres. given that, having separate pages for each subgenre makes sense because each one could itself become a source of other sub genres.
Just combined the old and new material.
Here are the major deletions and my reasoning:
early 1980s.
Gothic Influenced Keyboard dripping Black metal - The Sins of Thy Beloved, Tristania, etc. The interesting thing about this sub-genre is that it is the easiest to find.
-No, the interesting thing is that neither of them are Black Metal.-
Black influenced gothic Metal or "Norse-core" - (this genre has notable been mistaken for black metal because the bands that are in it have black elements but they are not really totally black metal) this genre features Dimmu Borgir, and the like.
Grim Black Metal - This type is becoming the most common usually with little or no keyboards, it is also the most overlooked and underated subgenre. Som enotable Bands are
Frozen Shadows - Quebec Canada
Hellacaust, Nova Scotia Canada - http://welcome. to/hellacaust
Darkthrone, Norway - http://www.darkthrone.no
Burzum, Norway (R.I.P) - http://www.burzum.com
Immortal, Norway - http://www.immortal.nu
Mayhem, Norway - http://www.thetruemayhem.com
Emperor, Norway - http://www.emperorhorde.com
more information can be found if you search using yahoo or google as this list is massive, so i compiled some of the most notable that i have ever heard.
-What is this crap? There is black metal. Symphonic black metal could possibly be considered a sub genre to it, and melodic possibly as well, but essentially there should be no sub genres of black metal.
-"Grim" is an adjective. Not a subgenre. Do try to keep up.-
-Emperor, grim? No keyboards? Mayhem, who had a whole track on GDoW that was nothing but keyboards? Get a clue! There are a slew of lo-fi, no-production albums out there but they are usually by little-known, low-talent bands who are ripping off early Darkthrone. Most of the classic bands you mention have long since evolved past "grim." Emperor and Immortal R.I.P. also, BTW.-
-I guess it's people like this who are responsible for the absurd of pointless sub-sub-sub-sub-genres on Wikipedia.-
-On a side note, bands have been known to call themselves or be called by others as "grim" or "necro", that doesn't really make a subgenre! Ulfednar 05:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
N.S. Black Metal or National Socialist black metal - This Genre is a very touchy one because it involves the radical ideas of racial seperatism and upholdence of the Aryan race, being applied into the music of black metal. most bands of this type of black metal are fueled by the conservation of pagan beliefs and traditions from total oblitheration by the christian beliefs.
In this genre some very notable bands are
Absurd
Graveland
Infernum
Kataxu
Legion of Doom
Order from Chaos
Thor's Hammer
Thunderbolt
Veles
and the like
for more info on these bands go to http://www.paganfront.net or search using www.google.com or any other search engine
Viking Metal - This style is not really totally black metal but draws upon the same, pagan, wilderness influence as most black metal does. Vintersorg, Norway - http://www.vintersorg.com Finntroll, - http://www.finntroll.com alot more information can be found here http://www.vikingmetal.cjb.net
- Well Viking Metal is a term used to describe bands by lyrical content rather than sound. While it's true that so called Viking Metal bands use northern folk influences in their music it still doesn't make for a valid subgenre, imo. Viking Metal bands play from Black Metal to Power Metal. Also, some bands are referred to as Blackened Viking Metal, which would mean that Viking Metal is not Black Metal to start with! Ulfednar 05:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
The German article about corpsepaint on http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpsepaint should be translated and added to Black Metal section. It presents the hypothesized origins of corpsepaints through history. I add another remark: in the French film called "L'Odyssée de l'Espèce" ("The Odyssey of Species") which deal with the first hominids' origins, shows in a reconstitution of a Homo Sapiens tribe in Europe corpsepaints really similar to those observed on Black Metal bands. ( http://www.dinosoria.com/fondespece.jpg)It is noteworthy to say that this movie was realized by Jacques Malaterre with the help of anthropologists (f.i. the famous Yves Coppens) and this shows how this reconstitution is scientifically relevant and, maybe, very close to 'truth' ( look at pics in 'Gallerie' section http://odysseedelespece.france3.fr/). Some further information could be found in scientifical publications about the scientifical relevancy of the use and importance of these paintings in early Europeans. Therefore, there may be a connection between prehistorical corpsepaints, the later Northern cultures (Scandinavian and German), some Medieval burial practices with dead corpses, with the nowadays corpsepaintings (mainly 'face-paints') worn within Metal culture: Thrash, Black or Glam (look at German Wiki article, linked just above). It SEEMS POSSIBLE that this practice of corpsepainting, with white colour on face and black colour on eyes (and mouth sometimes), had been an early European prehistorical tradition, conserved later mainly in Northern Europa and merging again today in Metal genres' aesthetism. It hasn't been discussedif other cultures have the same make-ups. But, due to the fact that mineral or vegetal substances used for make-ups are linked to a certain ecosystems, this tradition MAY be a European specificity. It is just an HYPOTHESIS. But, this hypothesis should be mentionned and discussed in the article. Why? For if it may be linked with early Europeans traditions, it would echoe the common "anti christian", "pagan" claims of Black Metal. In this way, it could be viewed as an 'pagan', pre-christian (and anti-chrisitan) symbol, but far older than Black Metal.
Very interesting! Ulfednar 06:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
if you wish to find out more information on black metal bands or record labels than here are some references
This part has been moved from Talk:Black Metal:
not a bad overview of the genre. removing some of the more enthusiastic and opinion based statements. JFQ
Can't see how Blind Guardian or Skyclad are related to Black Metal, except for that they also use guitars ... -- Zenogantner
I don't know about Battlelore, but Blind Guardian have absolutely nothing to do with Black Metal, they don't even sound similar. If you consider Blind Guardian to be Black Metal then bands like Rhapsody, Nightwish or maybe even Iron Maiden would also be Black Metal! - Nightfall
Thanks for this page, I think its great, and I agree that sub-genre's deserve their own pages. thanks again! -- JackLynch
While venom is mentioned as one of the key black metal bands, in the history, everything preceding the explosion of black metal in norway is left out. I believe Venom and Bathory deserve mention in the history before the rest of those artists because they were the first two black metal bands. Also I think Dimmu Borgir should not be listed as a notable black metal band. The person that discussed it here (which for some reason I can't seem to respond to) said himself that Dimmu Borgir was black influenced gothic metal. Well being influenced by black metal doesn't make a band a notable black metal band now does it? The rest of the list is very good. Sanctum 02:05, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Venom is in fact not black metal at all....they coined the term but that does not make them BM anymore then Deep purple is Heavy Metal because they coined the term...Venom is Thrash through and through
Redleaves
03:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Steppenwolf coined the term "Heavy Metal" in "Born to be Wild"
OK. lets sort things out:
1 wave: Venom, Bathory
2 wave: Mayhem (could maybe be in the 1st wave also), Darkthrone etc
3 wave: Immortal, Dark Funeral etc
my understanding is: first wave- Bathory, etc (whether it's actually black metal is debatable); second wave- Mayhem, Emperor, all those Norwegian bands caught up in the whole church burning thing; third wave- any black metal bands formed during and after the mid-90's marnues 22:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to add that a lot of bands are very fake black metal, in the sense that they are not what TRUE black metal is. Black metal originated as an attack on God, and the belief that Satan is the true ruler. The bands went back to their pagan roots.
Now a lot of new black metal bands claim that "God doesn't exist, christianity is a lie," which is absolutely not what real black metal is about. Bands like Emperor, Mayhem, and Burzum BELIEVED in Christianity, but they chose to worship Satan, not God.
Err because I messed up my original post, I'd like to say the bands did not go back to their pagan roots, because paganism has nothing to do with christianity (paganism is a polytheistic, naturalistic religion).
Not all Black Metal bands are neccessarily satanic. They might have some pagan influences (which isn't really satanic) and they're still considered Black Metal. Take Immortal, one of the most famous, for example. Their entire body of work usually revolves around their fictional fantasy world, and satanism has pretty much no part in it.
I'd like everyone here to note that Burzum frontman/only member Varg Vikernes is a known Odinist and therefore, is Pagan and not Satanic. Even Burzum's lyrics had much to do with occultism. I'd also like to add that orginally Black Metal was a revolt and a breaking off of Death Metal. Satanic lyrics and influences have been found in older Death Metal bands and just went with the influences taken from older Death Metal bands such as Possesed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.139.123.17 ( talk • contribs) .
Could I add a note about how black metal is very open to incorporating some aspects of other genres into black metal to create new and original sounds? I've always felt black metal was an amazingly open-minded genre when it came to music (let's not go into racism please). Bands such as Windir, Summoning, Xasthur, Burzum, and Void are prime examples of how black metal bands take on influences. Sanctum 07:11, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've added musical samples for BM: 30 seconds each from Bathory-Woman of Dark Desires, Burzum-Ea, Lord of the Deeps and Immortal-Grim and Frostbitten Kingdoms. I believe these musically pretty much represent what most people agree to be black metal. I was tempted to put a sample of Venom-Black Metal, but it would be useless for genre identification processes. Could someone maybe format the sample box better? I'm hopeless. (sorry about lateness, my net went down as I was posting this) -- KharBevNor 16:49, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have written a page for faggoth. Can someone please take a look at it? (It is one of my first articles here at Wikipedia, so I am not sure if I am doing everything right.) SpectrumDT 21:55, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
A good soloution, but deleting the section with your reasoing comes across biased. Perhaps you would like to draw up a section on insults commonly used by the black metal scene, and others can copy edit it as appopriate? Leyasu 16:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Then make a section on common derogatory terms used by the black metal scene and its fans, moving Faggoth to it. Once ur done, myself or another editor will copyedit if needs be. Leyasu 03:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
"Faggoth", "Troll Metal", "insults in black metal" etc. have no place in an encyclopedia. "Insults in quantum-physics" would probably not be even considered a topic in Wikipedia, so I don't see why it should apply any more to black metal. There is about as much purpose to such a section as there would be to a section called "Jokes told by black metal fans". And saying "troll metal" is a sub-genre of black metal is like saying "Lord of the rings" is a subgenre of books. I don't understand why this discussion is still going on. Not everything that is ever written on Wikipedia has to be preserved, especially not when it misleads people as much as these topics do. I think a delete is justified in this case. Mr. Death 10:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Then obviously they were voted to be kept by people who knew nothing at all about black metal. I could get a lot of people to go in on any arbitrary page on Wikipedia and vote some nonsense topic to be kept, but that doesn't make it true. You yourself (Leyasu) obviously understand how much nonsense these topics really are, but tries to keep some democracy into the process, I understand that, but I remind everyone that democracy is Wikipedia's weakness, as well as strength, as it lets people with no knowledge whatsoever to "destroy" serious topics, like in this particular situation. Ok, so the question is how to get rid of these nonsense topics. Is there some way to arrange another vote now? These things were voted on quite some time before I became a member. Mr. Death 08:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the redirect from faggoth to this article per the discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion. Since that page was merged in this article, the history needs to be preserved, so I moved it to Talk:Black metal/Faggoth (and the corresponding talk page to Talk:Black metal/Faggoth/talk). -- Jitse Niesen ( talk) 23:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Faggoth is not a subgenre, its a simple swearword pertaining to the subjectively perceived "softness" of emo and goth in general. Get that right, leyasu, and stop reverting the edits - lev
This isnt leading anywhere, leyasu. Stop being such a snide bigot and face the facts: "Faggoth" isnt a genre. Im neither "attacking bands and fans" nor am i "vandalising" when i point out the fact that "faggoth" is used to insult gothlike attire. Look at the word: faggot + goth = faggoth. If you cant bear the word being defined properly, as you obviously cant (reverting my edits with your arrogant snide remarks), delete the entry. Protecting wrong information for the sake of quantity at the cost of quality is wrong - lev
Imo the whole "faggoth" section can be removed. It doesn't add anything to the article. If you want it in there anyway, it can be in the general genre description where CoF and dimmu borgir and the likes are discussed - who btw aren't but should be as a more commercial output of BM. Spearhead 21:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Faggoth is being moved to the bottom of the subgenre list - it is blatantly NN and should probably just be deleted. Big in albania 14:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Does any one feel the need to keep this or the Pakistani sections? They should definitely be deleted and kept that way. I just looked at the faggoth vote and there were all of 4 votes with 2 of the merges taking the middle road because they didn't know what to do with it. But this is not the place for it, nor is this the place for band advertisements (which is all the Pakistani section is). marnues 03:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Still no real progress in the Faggoth department? It's been 2 months since I last checked this page out because I got tired of certain people's obsessive reverts to display this inaccurate piece of "information", and it's still here although it's clear that the majority of people involved in this discussion are clearly against this stupid article. How do we speed this up? For fuck's sake, I can ask any person on any black metal gig if they know what "faggoth" is, and my (in my own opinion) rather qualified guess is they would answer "no" with devastating majority. Mr. Death 20:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The edit made by 64.217.25.42/Jackliddle seems to come from someone who is novice to the subject. 1.) Black metal is not related to "Doom Metal". Black metal is more related to death metal as both started around the same time and came from the same influences (Thrash Metal). 2. There is no reason the original introduction should be reworded, since it is basically redundant as to what the original one said - that defining the genre is often subjective. While 64.217.25.42/Jackliddle's edit is certainly not vandalism, there is little rationale behind it, and the mention of the subgenre being "related" to doom metal is certainly misleading. Danteferno 00:31, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Jackliddle 02:50, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
misinformed Entertainment journalist. Danteferno 10:22, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I did an article for the 101 rules of black metal, which included the complete list of rules. The article was speedily deleted due to being copyright violation.
The deletion was probably justified, I suppose.
I have now resurrected the article as just a paragraph on the black metal page. It contains only an introduction; it does not list the actual "rules", but has only a link to them.
Is this OK? SpectrumDT 03:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The list is a must. Its a humorous how-to for the "kvlt" and "true" fan of black metal. Its a famous list, everyone knows its sarcastic.
This article has been suggested to be merged with the main BM article, and it should, I've certainly never heard this term, and many of the 'distinctions' it has from traditional BM are infact similarities. Merge it.
These merges are absolutely stupid.
NSBM should have an article of it's own since it wasn't really that much of an effect on black metal and people who look up NSBM (not knowing what it means), should be able to find out and not think that all black metal is inherently NS.
Troll Metal is not a significant part of black metal, therefore no merge, if it's even a genre in the first place (because other than Finntroll, I've never heard of it).
Suicidal Black Metal is not a significant movement either, and shouldn't be merged or mentioned.
Acoustic Black Metal seems to be a band plug rather than an actual movement, don't add it.
Acoustic Black Metal does not exist.In 1995 Ulver recorded an acoustic album "Kveldssanger" which some call acoustic black metal.But this was only an acoustic album played by musicians that recorded black metal music in past.Beside Ulver there are some black metal bands that have one or two songs that are played on acoustic guitars.Then it came time when acoustic black metal was mentioned on few places but this was only a joke.There are many "bands" that go under the label of acoustic black metal but they are all a joke.One of them is Impaled Northern Moonforest. From that point acoustic black metal is a joke.Beside all that, in 2002 a band called Strevlosh recorded a three song demo.A raw recording played on one acoustic(classical)guitar. From this was born Strevlosh Zvezda which got closer to ABM than anyone else. In 2004 new demo was recorded in the studio with real drums, classical guitar and black metal vocals. At this point the band doesn't use drums anymore.There are now two classical guitars in use and black metal vocals.And at this point this is the closest anyone got to the label of ABM. Here is a page with some info for Strevlosh Zvezda http://www.audiostreet.net/strevloshzvezda
Pakistani Black Metal? Geez give me a break...-- aenimated
Why is it so important to mention a joke band like Impaled Northern Moonforest?
Don't get me wrong when I ask you this: What is wrong with you? Read on Wikipedia about Impaled Northern Moonforest. You will get to part where it says "The two decided to start a joke black metal band..." Go on INM fansite and click on ABOUT and there you will read beside everything else also "they were bored and decided to make a true (joke)..." Is it so hard to get it? When a person says for his band that it is a joke, why can't you get it?
And it probably is a mixture of Black and Doom Metal. If a band sings about a certain topic it does not mean that it is inventing a whole new genre,subgenre or whatever. If a band is coming from some Asian country and sings in their language about Asian mythology and with all that plays Black metal it does not mean they are playing Asian Black metal. It takes much more to invent a new genre or subgenre or whatever.
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Acoustic black metal. Johnleemk | Talk 09:56, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
anyone else think the history needs more on the first wave of black metal? (venom, bathory, and stuff) -- Eel 21:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
As long its NPOV written, then go for it. Anything that isnt in the article already can be added, if it makes the article more comphrensive, and is accurate. Leyasu 02:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC) I think more should be written about it's roots in Hell, but that's just me.
i am a radio DJ and i have been using the country specific music pages, in this case the pakistani metal page to find bands from certain parts of the world. this page is very helpful in finding international bands, please keep it as a separate page.
-Troll metal should be removed from black metal be moved to folk metal i do think troll metal a valid subgenre and their enough bands that play what i consider trollish (Otyg , Troll bend fir , Finntroll , Troll Fest , Funeral Dust , etc..) but they use Fiddles , Flutes , Tin Whistles and other very unblack instruments plus their upbeat-
We should really remove the "Troll metal" section. It's not a legitimate subgenre, and it's not used by anyone who is into metal (black or otherwise). Also, Finntroll and Mortiis have musically nothing to do with black metal.
Troll metal doesn't exist. It never has. Calling something "troll metal" is a description, like "fire metal" or "cheesy metal." It isn't an actual subgenre of black metal. I think this requires a primer in reality. First of all, reality exists outside your ego and desires of importance by contributing some irrelevant material. Secondly, reality requires observation, not invention; while you can edit wikipedia pages, you can't edit reality. Finally, reality probably hates you and wishes ill of you. When you keep these rules in mind, you're realize that troll metal is an invention and has no places in being in an archive of material floating in the objective world.
reality is what i say it is, mofo! Dont forget that
I hope this helped you. Get to deleting that nonsense about troll metal!-- Iconoclast 18:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to jump into the middle of a hot debate really, but I tried to delete bands like Opeth, Nargaroth, and Velvet Cacoon from the "troll metal" section. These bands are certainly not "troll metal"; Opeth isn't even black metal at all! The person who reverted my edit said that these bands were troll metal because they are bands of "internet trolls". I believe that's a bit ridiculous, as (aside from that statement being utterly POV) wasn't it established that if troll metal does exist, it's something akin to Finntroll – black metal music themed around the Scandinavian mythology of trolls? If so, then these bands absolutely do not meet the qualifications for being "troll metal". Why are they listed here, under a subgenre of black metal? - Night 05:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
"Troll metal" is something very different from black metal. It should be removed!
Felt that this interview was appropriate for the section. Its an interview with Mortiis by Nikki Neil. I found it here.
It seems to me that Troll Metal better describes Finntroll than Mortiis. marnues 02:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
TROLL METAL IS DEFINITELY DEATH METAL, AND ALL WHO DISAGREE WILL PERISH!
...hasn't been invented yet but pretty soon one of you goofballs is going to apply that term to some new band. Seriously, from an outsiders perspective (although i am a fan of what i call "heavy metal music"), it is laughable at how this type of music has inspired so many sub-genres. Don't you people have anything better to do than to try and categorize every band into it's own unique musical style? Just call it all "metal" and be done with it. People must look at these pages and just laugh and laugh at your lot.
Someone fix this entry; Faggoth only refers to wanna-be black metal bands that add an excess of gothic metal shit.
Also, I haven't checked to see if Norsecore has it's own page, but if so it should be merged in the section explaining what faggoth means, and if not it should be mentioned, for reference as a derogative term.
Many bands have been disputed about their belonging in this category, such as Cradle of Filth and Dimmu Borgir... They have been called "Faggoth" due to their excess of the "gothic" look. The fact is, however, that these accessories used by these bands are purely show, just to draw in a unique audience. Among these looks are:
These bands have also been disputed for their use of high-pitched guitars and shreiking vocals... many true black-metal fans are aware that the sound is not what is important, it is the message, otherwise popular "death-bands" such as Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden would not have cemented their names into black-metal history. The sound just makes the band more unique, searching for a special kind of audience.
As a BM fan I have never heard of Faggoth, concerning Noisecore, this IS a serious genre in its own right, The artist Dan Doormouse mixed a compilation of Noisecore on Digitalhut Sounds a few years ago, consisting of fast noisy distorted droning techno, nothing to do with Black Metal. A.Grace 01:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
My mistake, never heard of norsecore ( A.Grace 22:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC))
I've heard of Faggoth bands - we have quite the scene here in Akron, Ohio, mostly playing in basements. O'Zebedee
Black Metal has plenty of nicknames. Below are a few:
This list seems to be comprised of real and made up genres, Fear-Embedding Metal?? and who the hell refers to black metal as death metal!! Here's some more made up BM nicknames.
any more? A.Grace 01:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Big in albania 14:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The Anti-Semitism in Black Metal is short and doesn't have a very good NPOV. Perhaps a section could addressing anti-semitism (or criticisms) could be created? James084 23:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
personally, i enjoy troll metal more than any other type of death metal. The plight of the trolls aren't expressed through music enough today, and to this day they are underapreciated, especially by those weakling Christians. I desire nothing more than to consume their flesh. If it were possible, I would be a troll and stalk the forests stalking my next victim, claiming my rite to the race, as Grendel dominated the humans of Herot
well, i hate to disagree, but i myself feel very partial to the cause of the dwarves. they are the true spawn of satan, and where as the trolls are hulking brutes, the dwarves are the great industrialists. they are the perfect symbol of my hate for humankind as they work behind the pictures, undermining human civilization. and they have awesome names. i wish i was born a dwarf. trolls suck
my name is schlomo lebowitz and i was just wondering why there aren't more jewish trolls?
Because the trolls ate them all
How do trolls mate? Just wondering
Can dwarves and trolls mate with each other? I think it would be awesome.
they can mate, but stories tell of frightening birth defects do to this.
Is it true that trolls constructed kingdoms with structures built out of pure hate? Or was it some sort of hate-concrete mixture?
Hey guys, in case you're interested in trolls. A great place to check is your local Mormon Temple.
Do trolls wear underwear or does it all hang out European style?
For the most part Trolls despise clothing, excluding, of course, battle armor.
I suggest merging this section into subforms, in the same way we have done all of the other 'pet names' for bands due to their slight variance on one specific aspect of Black Metal. If there is no objection to this, i shall merge and redirect the article by tomorrow. Leyasu 13:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Pakistani black metal isn't a stub. Hyacinth 13:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Considering that there is a World rock template, I would vote for keeping the Pakistani article, but it's terribly POV at the moment. Hopefully someone (who also has some knowledge on the subject ;)) can clean it up a bit. -- Mystman666 ( Talk) 06:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
No need to merge those two articles, since it is regional information. I am removing the merge template, since a merge is simply not feasible for reasons mentioned above. And users who say that Pakistani Black metal is joke, irrelevant, etc., i ask you what do you know about Pakistan ? So, from now on don't mess with metal's popularity. Gothic Hero 09:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
And by the way, check the regional scences under the infobox, United States black metal scene redirects to USBM, which is US Beaureau of Mines. What a joke ! Gothic Hero 09:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi ! For those here who speak french, just to inform this article is lacking of the objective description we can see on fr.wikipedia.org :-) http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal#Caract.C3.A9ristiques_musicales
quote :
"on peut même parler d'"anti-musique" car les compositions du groupe ne sont que des bruits stridents et oppressants posés les uns sur les autres, le tout accompagné de cris démentiels et psychopathes." (trying to translate : One can even regard that as "anti-music", for the group's compositions are nothing else than strident and oppressing noises put together, with demential and pyschopathic shouts)
I think That This Article Should Be Moved To The History Section Frenrir1 02:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Holy crap. Troll Metal? This whole article needs one good re-write. I'ts quite simply terrible at this point. I think that the auhtors who first wrote about rhese subgenres decided to overlable things a bit.
Good idea. While I have very litte trouble with the chracterisitics/history section, I think that this whole subgenre section will need a good revamping, which I will do on a temp page when I have the time. -- Nargos 22:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Articles that should be merged into here are
Spearhead 16:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
This is a great idea. Good luck to those who do this. marnues 01:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
In accordance with the AFD this pakistani black metal article was merged. Dunno if this is the most appropriate place, but serves as a place holder for now. And it needs a good cleanup too. I merged some parts into the pakistani music article tho. Spearhead 16:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Having an article that focuses exclusively on black metal in Pakistan isn't the best of ideas. What's to stop a section about black metal from Norway, Sweden, USA, Finland, Poland, Ukrain, etc, where the black metal scene is much bigger? It feels like the person who wrote the section on pakistani black metal did so mostly because of the giggles it would produce: black metal in a predominantly muslim third world country. I don't think the merge was a good idea, nor is it a good idea to devote such a large chunk fof this article to pakistani black metal. Of course, I see no harm in mentioning in this article that black metal is present even in Pakistan, but not that much more. -- Nargos 18:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
The AFD chose what to do. This article needs a overhaul anyways, so someone should be improving it. How about yew doing it, Nargos? Ley Shade 19:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I plan on doing so when my final projects are handed in. Until then, the most I can permit myself to do are minor edits here and there. I also need to do some work on a proposal for the heavy metal section.-- Nargos 21:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
What's the differnce bewteen thrash and black metal? It seems so much similar...will someone please explain it to me? Thanks! :)
Actually, what is known as the first wave of black metal is basically a form of thrash. Bathory is musically very similar to thrash. However later bands moved further away from thrash. I'm not a musician myself, so I can't tell you what it is musically, but there is generally a greater emphasis on atmosphere and the lyrics are considered evil for one reason or another. Of course there are no hard set rules, but most bands who are distinctly black metal follow them. marnues 04:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah, obviously Satyricon's Nemesis Divina and Tankard's Kings of Beer albums are identical! Come on! Ulfednar 06:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Why is this genre called black metal when most of the people in this scene are racists and fascists?
With regard to racist attitudes being the in the minority view, it is worth mentioning that prominent bands such as Darkthrone and Mayhem have racist comments and attitudes attributed to them. Fenriz caused a stir when he challenged that anyone daring to criticise a Darkthrone recording should be "patronised for their obvious jewish behaviour". The same recording also featured the slogan 'Norsk Arisk Black Metal' (Norwegian Aryan Black Metal) on the back. Hellhammer, drummer of Mayhem is also purported to have stated in an interview reprinted in Michael Moynihan's 'Lords Of Chaos' that Black Metal is for whites and the prime movers within the Norwegian scene despise black people and felt that the arson incidents would have served a better purpose if mosques or synagogues had been burned instead. Emgee 7 April '06
The term black metal is a pun on black magic, and in no way refers to black people. Though there are a prominent amount of racists within the black metal scene, it is unfair to say that "most of the people in this scene are racists and fascists".
First off i'd like to state that any person who considers there are more than one type of humans on Earth ( that being, obviously, PEOPLE ) is a racist! As long as idiots don't see that and try to "fight against discrimination" we'll have nothing good on our hands. Now that i got that off my chest, the fact that there are guys out there who, by their own persona, have something against something should have no effect on their music ( not saying lyrics, just music) and much less so on the genre they approach! I might me a gay-bashing mysoginistic racist xenophobic church-burning sonuvabitch, but if i just pick my guitar you won't be able to see that, will you? And "most of the people in this scene are racists and fascists?" is just another crappy invitation to unnecessary fucking-up of other human beings. More people like this and i'll get stabbed in the street for wearing my Satyricon shirt, thus showing off my alegiance to Satan, Nazis and The Ku Klux Klan! POWER TO THE PEOPLE! Mhrrr! Ulfednar 06:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Will people kindly stop replacing the faggoth and pakistani sections in this article without good reason PLEASE. Big in albania 00:38, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes this "faggoth" business is getting tiring. If you have any comments about its deletion, please put them above, in the section Concerning "faggoth". -- IronChris 01:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I started a discussion about subgenres on the talk page of the WikiProject Metal. Please discuss the issues about keeping or deleting the controversial sections there. Don't just delete or restore them without explaining yourself, or this will go on for ever. You can add other controversial sub-genres there if you like, and we can discuss them too. Let's reach an agreement at last, or this page will be condemned to endless reverts. -- IronChris 21:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Leyasu, can you explain why you restored the "faggoth" section? What AfD are you talking about? There has been a discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal#Faggoth (on the black metal page), to which you are of course welcome to participate, and for the moment there is unanimous opposition to this section (and several of the following ones). Restoring this section is therefore completely illogical. -- IronChris | (talk) 19:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Well obviously that AfD was not representative of most people's opinion, as shown by this discussion. Besides, next to no-one voted on the AfD, which also makes me think that it was not representative. It is obvious that if that AfD took place now, the outcome would be very different. I guess this is one of the reasons why voting is not encouraged on Wikipedia, and if we follow the guideline that discussions are better than polls, then this section should be deleted. Your commennts would have been greatly welcome in the discussion on the WkiProject Metal talk page, too bad you didn't think of drawing our attention to the AfD so that we could have taken it into account. -- IronChris | (talk) 20:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't know you were banned. I never said you were stupid, it's just that it would be a great deal easier if we could work together and not in opposition on this. I was in a hurry yesterday and may have appeared harsher than I wished to. I will not delete the faggoth section right away as I want to avoid edit wars (hence the discussion on the WikiProject page),but when I close the subject something will have to be done, AfD or no AfD. -- IronChris | (talk) 22:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Please get rid of this unsightly section. Faggoth is a derogatory term hurled at people who dress up goth and listen to trite. -- Lone Isle 15:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I should bring to the attention of this article that Varg Vikernes of Burzum no longer considers himself a nazi. In his article "A Burzum Story: Part VII - The Nazi Ghost" on www.burzum.org, he claims that he foolishly used the term Nazi in his youth to discribe his views. However he feels it no longer an accurate discription of his political views. He has been using the term "odalism" to discribe his views sence the late 90's. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.174.66.206 ( talk • contribs) .
These are totally terrible. I think (nearly) everyone agreed to have them deleted on the Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Metal#Faggoth_.28on_the_black_metal_page.29 page. If no one has strong objections, I'll remove them in the next couple of days or so... Spearhead 21:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Please do so. marnues 02:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
i have rewrote alot of stuff from the war metal section. it is a perfectly reasonable sub-genre with a large number of bands playing it. Info such as "troll metal" should be deleted, and probably "faggothic". but it might be worth mentioning that the term "faggothic" has been applied to a lot of bands, though is not a genre, usually an insult to the more melodic, gothic sounding black metal bands. what it says about 'faggoth' now is pretty accurate.
pemission to remove the 'disputed' banner from the war metal section? if anyone has any problemswith what it saya at the moment then post here and it can be discussed. but it most certainly is a sub-genre rather than just a pointless label. unsigned comment
I deleted Faggoth and Troll metal as per agreed above. I guess we can also safely a some undoing this is an act of vandalism? Since someone took some effort to re-write War metal, what do we do with this? Spearhead 15:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. i re-wrote the war metal article a few days ago (see above post) and its all be reverted to what it said before and is wildly inaccurate (to the point that i believe the person who originally wrote that has very little knowledge of the sub-genre at all). i was going to add quite a bit more because what i wrote last time was kind of rushed. why was it reverted? is what i wrote inaccurate? i know for a fact that what i wrote was a lot more bloody accurate than whats there now. e.g. "War metal is a black metal offshoot sub-genre that, since the release of a now infamous split between the bands Black Witchery and Conqueror, has been used to describe a certain sound". that split came out in 2001 and the term has been in use for much longer than that, as well as a large number of war metal bands existing prior to that!
Ive changed it back to its previous form (what i wrote) and changed a few parts but ill probably re-write a lot of it as its a bit poorly-worded. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.219.131.2 ( talk • contribs) .
Ley Shade 15:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
"Vandal, vandalism, violation of AfD, block, ban"... Are these the only words you can come up with, LS? I thought that Wikipedia was based on discussion, but it's obvious that for you it's based on threatening other people. I think I've read 3 or 4 messages today from you saying "don't do this or I will get you banned". Which, considering the number of times you got blocked yourself is some heavy irony. PLEASE stop this annoying conduct, if you have a point, give your arguments. If there's a policy you cite, give the link. We're all ready to see your arguments and weigh them up like we do for anyone else.
About the AfDs, I haven't seen any policy that says that they are the final word. On the contrary, it seems to me that an AfD only serves to try to reach a concensus, and if no clear concensus is reached, it can be overlooked. You are so fond of citing WP:NOT, so I think you should re-read the section WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy about how wikipedia is based on discussion, not voting, and certainly not threats. If you followed just that, it would make things considerably more easy and enjoyable for yourself and for everyone else.
And please don't say "IronChris, WP:NPA!", because there is no personal attack to be found here, just advice. Iron C hris | (talk) 18:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Just a little question, should there be a mention of "true black metal" in the article? It's an expression that's quite widespread (85200 google hits for example) for bands such as Emperor or Abigor. I think there should be something about it in the subforms. Tell me what you think. IronChris | (talk) 16:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
NO. There is no such thing as true black metal, it is simply called Black Metal. It's the new black metal that is different (modern black metal) and there are other similar genres of black metal, like symphonic black, necro black, etc.. People may use the phrase "tr00" or "kvlt" when trying to look cool or describe the age of certain black metal, but it's not a genre or any kind of classification. The genres are so overly messed up in metal because of people who are uneducated, or new to the scenes. -- Oinkness 23:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Every time I search for a subject to find information on, there is a discussion going on about wrong information, debates about relativity between genres, and all kinds of crap. Seriously, I looked for battle metal and it brought me to the black metal page. Black metal and battle metal are NOT THE SAME or similar at all, despite any possibly influencial relations between the genres. Thus, they should not be grouped into a single wiki... Battle Metal shouldn't be stuck on the black metal page, just as progressive metal is not the same as progressive rock.
I know, sometimes it can be confusing all these different metal genres, but it's really not that hard to figure out. There is no influence on black metal from punk, that is an ignorant statement. There may be punk influence on INDUSTRIAL BLACK METAL, but that's a completely different genre.
Thanks for taking the time to read. :) -- Oinkness 23:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What is Battle Metal anyway? Ulfednar 06:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Does this section warrant inclusion. Methinks it is made a minor, or even a made-up genre name that has no place on WP. Spearhead 22:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
1) is war metal more of a genre than NSBM? (because nsbm is a genre with only one specific characteristic, the bands political ideology, which is irrelevent to the music especially seeing as many nsbm bands do not use NS-orientated lyrics. graveland for example. whereas war metal has specific MUSICAL characteristics.) 2) "troll metal". what i wrote wasn't a snide comment towards the "sub-genre of troll metal", but a fact that war metal isn't dictated by lyrics, but by musical factors. try asking for 'troll metal' reccomendations on a forum and see what responses you get. then try asking for war metal reccomendations on a forum and you'll see the same names come up on any metal forum (i.e. blasphemy, conqueror, AoA etc) But as far as im concerned you can delete the whole war metal part of this article. i added some info (which ive been meaning to make more detailed), but ive used wikipedia as a source of info long enough to know that its wildly innaccurate to the point of being worthless.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive from February 2002 to May 2006.
Yeah, in regard to the topic title. What the hell does misclencious mean? It is not a word. Did you mean miscellaneous? C'mon, learn how to spell. You might as well write miscell-anus then, duh.
I think there's an interesting article on this site regarding the connections between Black Metal and Punk. However, it's impossible to link directly to it. (The article is called "Punk'd", just scroll down) http://basementbar.com/EditorialN1.asp?ID=30
WTH
It must be said that anybody who believes that Venom 'invented' black metal has no idea what they are talking about. Venom influenced, or perhaps even inspired, black metal, but they definitely were not themselves. It is fair to say that Venom started thrash metal, but not black metal.
Leyasu, what did you mean with "Thrash metal originating before Black Metal"? Venom released the first Black Metal albums, and Venom again inspired Thrash Metal bands (as well as other Black Metal bands). Which Thrash Metal band came before Venom released "Welcome to Hell"??
Here's a quote from Malcolm Dome that hihglights this: "But Venom started it all. Without them thrash may never have existed" "Whatever they say about us, Venom were the first in the field. They started the whole thrash movement" - Lars Ulrich, Metallica Both quotes from the book "Thrash Metal"(1990, Omnibus Press) I see from the Thrash Metal article that there were some metal music before Venom that did have some Thrash riffing, but this was not bona fide Thrash Metal. If Black Metal really derived from Thrash Metal, then this needs to be substantiated. WTH
Instead of deleting information that I provide proof for, you may take your time to provide facts stating otherwise. WTH One band doesnt define a genre nor its roots. I will also point out that Metallica made outrageous, untrue claims about Napster users, and Kerrang has made outrageous claims such as Mortiis being a Gothic Metal mastermind and Linkin Park being Death Metal. I suggest you find less POV, less inaccurate, less market the band that pays us most, sources. Leyasu 17:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
WTH I am not being funny with you WTH. But this argument has gone on several times had has been part of vandalism many times. My intrest is only in making the better article, it isnt personal. If you find more sources, and give the links here so all can read them, the article can be changed easily. It is simply a case of trying to protect against vandalism, that is all. Sorry if i come across as making this personal between us. Leyasu 00:13, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's the truth as is written on Lord's of Chaos by Michael Mohnihan and Dodrik Soederlind: The primary sources Euronymous(Mayhem) based his music on was the name and grittines of Venom's Black metal album (which by no means is black metal, it is only a gritty NWOBHM album) and the late Bathory (a band that can jump to any genre they want to, but considered Death Metal) secondary sources are Mercyful Fate(king diamond), Hellhammer and Celtic Frost among other bands. In no way did Venom invent black metal as it was only their album's name so they need to be removed from the originators of black metal along with the rest of the bands for only one of those bands actually played black metal, that band being Mayhem.
- This is ridiculous. By black metal, we mean the style of music which became popular amongst certain Norwegian bands in the late 80s/early 90s (Mayhem, Darkthrone, Burzum, etc), and derivates there of. Venom did not play in this style. Venom played thrash metal, and though they, along with bands such as Mercyful Fate and Celtic Frost, had some influence on black metal, they were definitely not the first black metal band. If any band should be credited as the originator of black metal, it should be Bathory.
Hi, just a question. It is said in the article that Euronymous planned to use the picture he took of Deads corpse as an album cover. AFAIK it was stolen by a guy from a label Euronymous had trouble with. This guy used it as cover for a black metal sampler. I have this information from a german blackmetal magazine called Ablaze. I still have it and can look it up, starting to search for it later. But maybe they were just misinformed... Overall a well done article!
Hey, sorry to wake you up, but what the heck did you mean by putting Isengard into "Tolkien Metal"? I know that the name Isengard was taken from Tolkien, but Fenriz plays something more folkish than Tolkienesque. Or did you mean the other, less known Isengard from Sweden? If that's the case, then it's okay with me, heh.
Removed "racist" bit, as it is opinionated. Added more information for band: Immortal. Section on Slavic bands is a bit misinforming about the major bands, will consider changing Oligopod
What about the face paint?
Well, actually Corpse Paint was used only by some Black Metal bands ( Marduk ) and included white skin, black lipstick and black/gray shade around the eyes, all messily applied to simulate the dead look. Other bands ( see Immortal ) used what they called War Paint which was much more oppulent consisting of big black drawings applied around eyes and mouth. And sure enough, there's the third cattegory of bands who wore the make-up for no other reason but the show or because of the trend... regards! Ulfednar 05:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need distinct articles about subgenres of a Metal subgenre or is it better to describe them in the main article? Expecially since Vikings, battles, middle ages and Tolkien's works are quite a common theme in most Metal subgenres and therefore the names could be misleading. Valhalla
I do think we need separate articles. You describe everything thats common to Black metal and its sub-genres in the Black metal-page, and then on each sub-genre page you describe what makes this sub-genre uniqe. sandos
I certainly haven't heard titles like "Tolkien metal" or "Suicidal black metal" being used to describe cohesive and musically distinct sub-genres outside of Wikipedia. In the cases of troll metal, Tolkien metal and the like, they seem to refer to the lyrical content of the bands in question, which is a tad absurd since rock bands have taken inspiration from Tolkien's works ever since Led Zeppelin's first album. Black Sabbath were lyrically inspired by Dennis Wheatley, but no-one ever called them "Wheatley metal" did they?
NSBM seems a slightly less unnecessary distinction as it is a cohesive musical movement, particularly in eastern Europe, and it is a generally unified ideology (however immature and unsound that ideology may seem to yours truly), but I'd still strongly suggest that it be merged with the main article on black metal. belzub
It's the nature of modern rock music that it propagates sub genres. given that, having separate pages for each subgenre makes sense because each one could itself become a source of other sub genres.
Just combined the old and new material.
Here are the major deletions and my reasoning:
early 1980s.
Gothic Influenced Keyboard dripping Black metal - The Sins of Thy Beloved, Tristania, etc. The interesting thing about this sub-genre is that it is the easiest to find.
-No, the interesting thing is that neither of them are Black Metal.-
Black influenced gothic Metal or "Norse-core" - (this genre has notable been mistaken for black metal because the bands that are in it have black elements but they are not really totally black metal) this genre features Dimmu Borgir, and the like.
Grim Black Metal - This type is becoming the most common usually with little or no keyboards, it is also the most overlooked and underated subgenre. Som enotable Bands are
Frozen Shadows - Quebec Canada
Hellacaust, Nova Scotia Canada - http://welcome. to/hellacaust
Darkthrone, Norway - http://www.darkthrone.no
Burzum, Norway (R.I.P) - http://www.burzum.com
Immortal, Norway - http://www.immortal.nu
Mayhem, Norway - http://www.thetruemayhem.com
Emperor, Norway - http://www.emperorhorde.com
more information can be found if you search using yahoo or google as this list is massive, so i compiled some of the most notable that i have ever heard.
-What is this crap? There is black metal. Symphonic black metal could possibly be considered a sub genre to it, and melodic possibly as well, but essentially there should be no sub genres of black metal.
-"Grim" is an adjective. Not a subgenre. Do try to keep up.-
-Emperor, grim? No keyboards? Mayhem, who had a whole track on GDoW that was nothing but keyboards? Get a clue! There are a slew of lo-fi, no-production albums out there but they are usually by little-known, low-talent bands who are ripping off early Darkthrone. Most of the classic bands you mention have long since evolved past "grim." Emperor and Immortal R.I.P. also, BTW.-
-I guess it's people like this who are responsible for the absurd of pointless sub-sub-sub-sub-genres on Wikipedia.-
-On a side note, bands have been known to call themselves or be called by others as "grim" or "necro", that doesn't really make a subgenre! Ulfednar 05:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
N.S. Black Metal or National Socialist black metal - This Genre is a very touchy one because it involves the radical ideas of racial seperatism and upholdence of the Aryan race, being applied into the music of black metal. most bands of this type of black metal are fueled by the conservation of pagan beliefs and traditions from total oblitheration by the christian beliefs.
In this genre some very notable bands are
Absurd
Graveland
Infernum
Kataxu
Legion of Doom
Order from Chaos
Thor's Hammer
Thunderbolt
Veles
and the like
for more info on these bands go to http://www.paganfront.net or search using www.google.com or any other search engine
Viking Metal - This style is not really totally black metal but draws upon the same, pagan, wilderness influence as most black metal does. Vintersorg, Norway - http://www.vintersorg.com Finntroll, - http://www.finntroll.com alot more information can be found here http://www.vikingmetal.cjb.net
- Well Viking Metal is a term used to describe bands by lyrical content rather than sound. While it's true that so called Viking Metal bands use northern folk influences in their music it still doesn't make for a valid subgenre, imo. Viking Metal bands play from Black Metal to Power Metal. Also, some bands are referred to as Blackened Viking Metal, which would mean that Viking Metal is not Black Metal to start with! Ulfednar 05:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
The German article about corpsepaint on http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpsepaint should be translated and added to Black Metal section. It presents the hypothesized origins of corpsepaints through history. I add another remark: in the French film called "L'Odyssée de l'Espèce" ("The Odyssey of Species") which deal with the first hominids' origins, shows in a reconstitution of a Homo Sapiens tribe in Europe corpsepaints really similar to those observed on Black Metal bands. ( http://www.dinosoria.com/fondespece.jpg)It is noteworthy to say that this movie was realized by Jacques Malaterre with the help of anthropologists (f.i. the famous Yves Coppens) and this shows how this reconstitution is scientifically relevant and, maybe, very close to 'truth' ( look at pics in 'Gallerie' section http://odysseedelespece.france3.fr/). Some further information could be found in scientifical publications about the scientifical relevancy of the use and importance of these paintings in early Europeans. Therefore, there may be a connection between prehistorical corpsepaints, the later Northern cultures (Scandinavian and German), some Medieval burial practices with dead corpses, with the nowadays corpsepaintings (mainly 'face-paints') worn within Metal culture: Thrash, Black or Glam (look at German Wiki article, linked just above). It SEEMS POSSIBLE that this practice of corpsepainting, with white colour on face and black colour on eyes (and mouth sometimes), had been an early European prehistorical tradition, conserved later mainly in Northern Europa and merging again today in Metal genres' aesthetism. It hasn't been discussedif other cultures have the same make-ups. But, due to the fact that mineral or vegetal substances used for make-ups are linked to a certain ecosystems, this tradition MAY be a European specificity. It is just an HYPOTHESIS. But, this hypothesis should be mentionned and discussed in the article. Why? For if it may be linked with early Europeans traditions, it would echoe the common "anti christian", "pagan" claims of Black Metal. In this way, it could be viewed as an 'pagan', pre-christian (and anti-chrisitan) symbol, but far older than Black Metal.
Very interesting! Ulfednar 06:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
if you wish to find out more information on black metal bands or record labels than here are some references
This part has been moved from Talk:Black Metal:
not a bad overview of the genre. removing some of the more enthusiastic and opinion based statements. JFQ
Can't see how Blind Guardian or Skyclad are related to Black Metal, except for that they also use guitars ... -- Zenogantner
I don't know about Battlelore, but Blind Guardian have absolutely nothing to do with Black Metal, they don't even sound similar. If you consider Blind Guardian to be Black Metal then bands like Rhapsody, Nightwish or maybe even Iron Maiden would also be Black Metal! - Nightfall
Thanks for this page, I think its great, and I agree that sub-genre's deserve their own pages. thanks again! -- JackLynch
While venom is mentioned as one of the key black metal bands, in the history, everything preceding the explosion of black metal in norway is left out. I believe Venom and Bathory deserve mention in the history before the rest of those artists because they were the first two black metal bands. Also I think Dimmu Borgir should not be listed as a notable black metal band. The person that discussed it here (which for some reason I can't seem to respond to) said himself that Dimmu Borgir was black influenced gothic metal. Well being influenced by black metal doesn't make a band a notable black metal band now does it? The rest of the list is very good. Sanctum 02:05, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Venom is in fact not black metal at all....they coined the term but that does not make them BM anymore then Deep purple is Heavy Metal because they coined the term...Venom is Thrash through and through
Redleaves
03:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Steppenwolf coined the term "Heavy Metal" in "Born to be Wild"
OK. lets sort things out:
1 wave: Venom, Bathory
2 wave: Mayhem (could maybe be in the 1st wave also), Darkthrone etc
3 wave: Immortal, Dark Funeral etc
my understanding is: first wave- Bathory, etc (whether it's actually black metal is debatable); second wave- Mayhem, Emperor, all those Norwegian bands caught up in the whole church burning thing; third wave- any black metal bands formed during and after the mid-90's marnues 22:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to add that a lot of bands are very fake black metal, in the sense that they are not what TRUE black metal is. Black metal originated as an attack on God, and the belief that Satan is the true ruler. The bands went back to their pagan roots.
Now a lot of new black metal bands claim that "God doesn't exist, christianity is a lie," which is absolutely not what real black metal is about. Bands like Emperor, Mayhem, and Burzum BELIEVED in Christianity, but they chose to worship Satan, not God.
Err because I messed up my original post, I'd like to say the bands did not go back to their pagan roots, because paganism has nothing to do with christianity (paganism is a polytheistic, naturalistic religion).
Not all Black Metal bands are neccessarily satanic. They might have some pagan influences (which isn't really satanic) and they're still considered Black Metal. Take Immortal, one of the most famous, for example. Their entire body of work usually revolves around their fictional fantasy world, and satanism has pretty much no part in it.
I'd like everyone here to note that Burzum frontman/only member Varg Vikernes is a known Odinist and therefore, is Pagan and not Satanic. Even Burzum's lyrics had much to do with occultism. I'd also like to add that orginally Black Metal was a revolt and a breaking off of Death Metal. Satanic lyrics and influences have been found in older Death Metal bands and just went with the influences taken from older Death Metal bands such as Possesed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.139.123.17 ( talk • contribs) .
Could I add a note about how black metal is very open to incorporating some aspects of other genres into black metal to create new and original sounds? I've always felt black metal was an amazingly open-minded genre when it came to music (let's not go into racism please). Bands such as Windir, Summoning, Xasthur, Burzum, and Void are prime examples of how black metal bands take on influences. Sanctum 07:11, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've added musical samples for BM: 30 seconds each from Bathory-Woman of Dark Desires, Burzum-Ea, Lord of the Deeps and Immortal-Grim and Frostbitten Kingdoms. I believe these musically pretty much represent what most people agree to be black metal. I was tempted to put a sample of Venom-Black Metal, but it would be useless for genre identification processes. Could someone maybe format the sample box better? I'm hopeless. (sorry about lateness, my net went down as I was posting this) -- KharBevNor 16:49, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have written a page for faggoth. Can someone please take a look at it? (It is one of my first articles here at Wikipedia, so I am not sure if I am doing everything right.) SpectrumDT 21:55, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
A good soloution, but deleting the section with your reasoing comes across biased. Perhaps you would like to draw up a section on insults commonly used by the black metal scene, and others can copy edit it as appopriate? Leyasu 16:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Then make a section on common derogatory terms used by the black metal scene and its fans, moving Faggoth to it. Once ur done, myself or another editor will copyedit if needs be. Leyasu 03:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
"Faggoth", "Troll Metal", "insults in black metal" etc. have no place in an encyclopedia. "Insults in quantum-physics" would probably not be even considered a topic in Wikipedia, so I don't see why it should apply any more to black metal. There is about as much purpose to such a section as there would be to a section called "Jokes told by black metal fans". And saying "troll metal" is a sub-genre of black metal is like saying "Lord of the rings" is a subgenre of books. I don't understand why this discussion is still going on. Not everything that is ever written on Wikipedia has to be preserved, especially not when it misleads people as much as these topics do. I think a delete is justified in this case. Mr. Death 10:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Then obviously they were voted to be kept by people who knew nothing at all about black metal. I could get a lot of people to go in on any arbitrary page on Wikipedia and vote some nonsense topic to be kept, but that doesn't make it true. You yourself (Leyasu) obviously understand how much nonsense these topics really are, but tries to keep some democracy into the process, I understand that, but I remind everyone that democracy is Wikipedia's weakness, as well as strength, as it lets people with no knowledge whatsoever to "destroy" serious topics, like in this particular situation. Ok, so the question is how to get rid of these nonsense topics. Is there some way to arrange another vote now? These things were voted on quite some time before I became a member. Mr. Death 08:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the redirect from faggoth to this article per the discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion. Since that page was merged in this article, the history needs to be preserved, so I moved it to Talk:Black metal/Faggoth (and the corresponding talk page to Talk:Black metal/Faggoth/talk). -- Jitse Niesen ( talk) 23:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Faggoth is not a subgenre, its a simple swearword pertaining to the subjectively perceived "softness" of emo and goth in general. Get that right, leyasu, and stop reverting the edits - lev
This isnt leading anywhere, leyasu. Stop being such a snide bigot and face the facts: "Faggoth" isnt a genre. Im neither "attacking bands and fans" nor am i "vandalising" when i point out the fact that "faggoth" is used to insult gothlike attire. Look at the word: faggot + goth = faggoth. If you cant bear the word being defined properly, as you obviously cant (reverting my edits with your arrogant snide remarks), delete the entry. Protecting wrong information for the sake of quantity at the cost of quality is wrong - lev
Imo the whole "faggoth" section can be removed. It doesn't add anything to the article. If you want it in there anyway, it can be in the general genre description where CoF and dimmu borgir and the likes are discussed - who btw aren't but should be as a more commercial output of BM. Spearhead 21:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Faggoth is being moved to the bottom of the subgenre list - it is blatantly NN and should probably just be deleted. Big in albania 14:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Does any one feel the need to keep this or the Pakistani sections? They should definitely be deleted and kept that way. I just looked at the faggoth vote and there were all of 4 votes with 2 of the merges taking the middle road because they didn't know what to do with it. But this is not the place for it, nor is this the place for band advertisements (which is all the Pakistani section is). marnues 03:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Still no real progress in the Faggoth department? It's been 2 months since I last checked this page out because I got tired of certain people's obsessive reverts to display this inaccurate piece of "information", and it's still here although it's clear that the majority of people involved in this discussion are clearly against this stupid article. How do we speed this up? For fuck's sake, I can ask any person on any black metal gig if they know what "faggoth" is, and my (in my own opinion) rather qualified guess is they would answer "no" with devastating majority. Mr. Death 20:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The edit made by 64.217.25.42/Jackliddle seems to come from someone who is novice to the subject. 1.) Black metal is not related to "Doom Metal". Black metal is more related to death metal as both started around the same time and came from the same influences (Thrash Metal). 2. There is no reason the original introduction should be reworded, since it is basically redundant as to what the original one said - that defining the genre is often subjective. While 64.217.25.42/Jackliddle's edit is certainly not vandalism, there is little rationale behind it, and the mention of the subgenre being "related" to doom metal is certainly misleading. Danteferno 00:31, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Jackliddle 02:50, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
misinformed Entertainment journalist. Danteferno 10:22, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I did an article for the 101 rules of black metal, which included the complete list of rules. The article was speedily deleted due to being copyright violation.
The deletion was probably justified, I suppose.
I have now resurrected the article as just a paragraph on the black metal page. It contains only an introduction; it does not list the actual "rules", but has only a link to them.
Is this OK? SpectrumDT 03:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The list is a must. Its a humorous how-to for the "kvlt" and "true" fan of black metal. Its a famous list, everyone knows its sarcastic.
This article has been suggested to be merged with the main BM article, and it should, I've certainly never heard this term, and many of the 'distinctions' it has from traditional BM are infact similarities. Merge it.
These merges are absolutely stupid.
NSBM should have an article of it's own since it wasn't really that much of an effect on black metal and people who look up NSBM (not knowing what it means), should be able to find out and not think that all black metal is inherently NS.
Troll Metal is not a significant part of black metal, therefore no merge, if it's even a genre in the first place (because other than Finntroll, I've never heard of it).
Suicidal Black Metal is not a significant movement either, and shouldn't be merged or mentioned.
Acoustic Black Metal seems to be a band plug rather than an actual movement, don't add it.
Acoustic Black Metal does not exist.In 1995 Ulver recorded an acoustic album "Kveldssanger" which some call acoustic black metal.But this was only an acoustic album played by musicians that recorded black metal music in past.Beside Ulver there are some black metal bands that have one or two songs that are played on acoustic guitars.Then it came time when acoustic black metal was mentioned on few places but this was only a joke.There are many "bands" that go under the label of acoustic black metal but they are all a joke.One of them is Impaled Northern Moonforest. From that point acoustic black metal is a joke.Beside all that, in 2002 a band called Strevlosh recorded a three song demo.A raw recording played on one acoustic(classical)guitar. From this was born Strevlosh Zvezda which got closer to ABM than anyone else. In 2004 new demo was recorded in the studio with real drums, classical guitar and black metal vocals. At this point the band doesn't use drums anymore.There are now two classical guitars in use and black metal vocals.And at this point this is the closest anyone got to the label of ABM. Here is a page with some info for Strevlosh Zvezda http://www.audiostreet.net/strevloshzvezda
Pakistani Black Metal? Geez give me a break...-- aenimated
Why is it so important to mention a joke band like Impaled Northern Moonforest?
Don't get me wrong when I ask you this: What is wrong with you? Read on Wikipedia about Impaled Northern Moonforest. You will get to part where it says "The two decided to start a joke black metal band..." Go on INM fansite and click on ABOUT and there you will read beside everything else also "they were bored and decided to make a true (joke)..." Is it so hard to get it? When a person says for his band that it is a joke, why can't you get it?
And it probably is a mixture of Black and Doom Metal. If a band sings about a certain topic it does not mean that it is inventing a whole new genre,subgenre or whatever. If a band is coming from some Asian country and sings in their language about Asian mythology and with all that plays Black metal it does not mean they are playing Asian Black metal. It takes much more to invent a new genre or subgenre or whatever.
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Acoustic black metal. Johnleemk | Talk 09:56, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
anyone else think the history needs more on the first wave of black metal? (venom, bathory, and stuff) -- Eel 21:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
As long its NPOV written, then go for it. Anything that isnt in the article already can be added, if it makes the article more comphrensive, and is accurate. Leyasu 02:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC) I think more should be written about it's roots in Hell, but that's just me.
i am a radio DJ and i have been using the country specific music pages, in this case the pakistani metal page to find bands from certain parts of the world. this page is very helpful in finding international bands, please keep it as a separate page.
-Troll metal should be removed from black metal be moved to folk metal i do think troll metal a valid subgenre and their enough bands that play what i consider trollish (Otyg , Troll bend fir , Finntroll , Troll Fest , Funeral Dust , etc..) but they use Fiddles , Flutes , Tin Whistles and other very unblack instruments plus their upbeat-
We should really remove the "Troll metal" section. It's not a legitimate subgenre, and it's not used by anyone who is into metal (black or otherwise). Also, Finntroll and Mortiis have musically nothing to do with black metal.
Troll metal doesn't exist. It never has. Calling something "troll metal" is a description, like "fire metal" or "cheesy metal." It isn't an actual subgenre of black metal. I think this requires a primer in reality. First of all, reality exists outside your ego and desires of importance by contributing some irrelevant material. Secondly, reality requires observation, not invention; while you can edit wikipedia pages, you can't edit reality. Finally, reality probably hates you and wishes ill of you. When you keep these rules in mind, you're realize that troll metal is an invention and has no places in being in an archive of material floating in the objective world.
reality is what i say it is, mofo! Dont forget that
I hope this helped you. Get to deleting that nonsense about troll metal!-- Iconoclast 18:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to jump into the middle of a hot debate really, but I tried to delete bands like Opeth, Nargaroth, and Velvet Cacoon from the "troll metal" section. These bands are certainly not "troll metal"; Opeth isn't even black metal at all! The person who reverted my edit said that these bands were troll metal because they are bands of "internet trolls". I believe that's a bit ridiculous, as (aside from that statement being utterly POV) wasn't it established that if troll metal does exist, it's something akin to Finntroll – black metal music themed around the Scandinavian mythology of trolls? If so, then these bands absolutely do not meet the qualifications for being "troll metal". Why are they listed here, under a subgenre of black metal? - Night 05:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
"Troll metal" is something very different from black metal. It should be removed!
Felt that this interview was appropriate for the section. Its an interview with Mortiis by Nikki Neil. I found it here.
It seems to me that Troll Metal better describes Finntroll than Mortiis. marnues 02:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
TROLL METAL IS DEFINITELY DEATH METAL, AND ALL WHO DISAGREE WILL PERISH!
...hasn't been invented yet but pretty soon one of you goofballs is going to apply that term to some new band. Seriously, from an outsiders perspective (although i am a fan of what i call "heavy metal music"), it is laughable at how this type of music has inspired so many sub-genres. Don't you people have anything better to do than to try and categorize every band into it's own unique musical style? Just call it all "metal" and be done with it. People must look at these pages and just laugh and laugh at your lot.
Someone fix this entry; Faggoth only refers to wanna-be black metal bands that add an excess of gothic metal shit.
Also, I haven't checked to see if Norsecore has it's own page, but if so it should be merged in the section explaining what faggoth means, and if not it should be mentioned, for reference as a derogative term.
Many bands have been disputed about their belonging in this category, such as Cradle of Filth and Dimmu Borgir... They have been called "Faggoth" due to their excess of the "gothic" look. The fact is, however, that these accessories used by these bands are purely show, just to draw in a unique audience. Among these looks are:
These bands have also been disputed for their use of high-pitched guitars and shreiking vocals... many true black-metal fans are aware that the sound is not what is important, it is the message, otherwise popular "death-bands" such as Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden would not have cemented their names into black-metal history. The sound just makes the band more unique, searching for a special kind of audience.
As a BM fan I have never heard of Faggoth, concerning Noisecore, this IS a serious genre in its own right, The artist Dan Doormouse mixed a compilation of Noisecore on Digitalhut Sounds a few years ago, consisting of fast noisy distorted droning techno, nothing to do with Black Metal. A.Grace 01:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
My mistake, never heard of norsecore ( A.Grace 22:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC))
I've heard of Faggoth bands - we have quite the scene here in Akron, Ohio, mostly playing in basements. O'Zebedee
Black Metal has plenty of nicknames. Below are a few:
This list seems to be comprised of real and made up genres, Fear-Embedding Metal?? and who the hell refers to black metal as death metal!! Here's some more made up BM nicknames.
any more? A.Grace 01:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Big in albania 14:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The Anti-Semitism in Black Metal is short and doesn't have a very good NPOV. Perhaps a section could addressing anti-semitism (or criticisms) could be created? James084 23:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
personally, i enjoy troll metal more than any other type of death metal. The plight of the trolls aren't expressed through music enough today, and to this day they are underapreciated, especially by those weakling Christians. I desire nothing more than to consume their flesh. If it were possible, I would be a troll and stalk the forests stalking my next victim, claiming my rite to the race, as Grendel dominated the humans of Herot
well, i hate to disagree, but i myself feel very partial to the cause of the dwarves. they are the true spawn of satan, and where as the trolls are hulking brutes, the dwarves are the great industrialists. they are the perfect symbol of my hate for humankind as they work behind the pictures, undermining human civilization. and they have awesome names. i wish i was born a dwarf. trolls suck
my name is schlomo lebowitz and i was just wondering why there aren't more jewish trolls?
Because the trolls ate them all
How do trolls mate? Just wondering
Can dwarves and trolls mate with each other? I think it would be awesome.
they can mate, but stories tell of frightening birth defects do to this.
Is it true that trolls constructed kingdoms with structures built out of pure hate? Or was it some sort of hate-concrete mixture?
Hey guys, in case you're interested in trolls. A great place to check is your local Mormon Temple.
Do trolls wear underwear or does it all hang out European style?
For the most part Trolls despise clothing, excluding, of course, battle armor.
I suggest merging this section into subforms, in the same way we have done all of the other 'pet names' for bands due to their slight variance on one specific aspect of Black Metal. If there is no objection to this, i shall merge and redirect the article by tomorrow. Leyasu 13:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Pakistani black metal isn't a stub. Hyacinth 13:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Considering that there is a World rock template, I would vote for keeping the Pakistani article, but it's terribly POV at the moment. Hopefully someone (who also has some knowledge on the subject ;)) can clean it up a bit. -- Mystman666 ( Talk) 06:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
No need to merge those two articles, since it is regional information. I am removing the merge template, since a merge is simply not feasible for reasons mentioned above. And users who say that Pakistani Black metal is joke, irrelevant, etc., i ask you what do you know about Pakistan ? So, from now on don't mess with metal's popularity. Gothic Hero 09:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
And by the way, check the regional scences under the infobox, United States black metal scene redirects to USBM, which is US Beaureau of Mines. What a joke ! Gothic Hero 09:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi ! For those here who speak french, just to inform this article is lacking of the objective description we can see on fr.wikipedia.org :-) http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal#Caract.C3.A9ristiques_musicales
quote :
"on peut même parler d'"anti-musique" car les compositions du groupe ne sont que des bruits stridents et oppressants posés les uns sur les autres, le tout accompagné de cris démentiels et psychopathes." (trying to translate : One can even regard that as "anti-music", for the group's compositions are nothing else than strident and oppressing noises put together, with demential and pyschopathic shouts)
I think That This Article Should Be Moved To The History Section Frenrir1 02:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Holy crap. Troll Metal? This whole article needs one good re-write. I'ts quite simply terrible at this point. I think that the auhtors who first wrote about rhese subgenres decided to overlable things a bit.
Good idea. While I have very litte trouble with the chracterisitics/history section, I think that this whole subgenre section will need a good revamping, which I will do on a temp page when I have the time. -- Nargos 22:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Articles that should be merged into here are
Spearhead 16:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
This is a great idea. Good luck to those who do this. marnues 01:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
In accordance with the AFD this pakistani black metal article was merged. Dunno if this is the most appropriate place, but serves as a place holder for now. And it needs a good cleanup too. I merged some parts into the pakistani music article tho. Spearhead 16:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Having an article that focuses exclusively on black metal in Pakistan isn't the best of ideas. What's to stop a section about black metal from Norway, Sweden, USA, Finland, Poland, Ukrain, etc, where the black metal scene is much bigger? It feels like the person who wrote the section on pakistani black metal did so mostly because of the giggles it would produce: black metal in a predominantly muslim third world country. I don't think the merge was a good idea, nor is it a good idea to devote such a large chunk fof this article to pakistani black metal. Of course, I see no harm in mentioning in this article that black metal is present even in Pakistan, but not that much more. -- Nargos 18:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
The AFD chose what to do. This article needs a overhaul anyways, so someone should be improving it. How about yew doing it, Nargos? Ley Shade 19:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I plan on doing so when my final projects are handed in. Until then, the most I can permit myself to do are minor edits here and there. I also need to do some work on a proposal for the heavy metal section.-- Nargos 21:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
What's the differnce bewteen thrash and black metal? It seems so much similar...will someone please explain it to me? Thanks! :)
Actually, what is known as the first wave of black metal is basically a form of thrash. Bathory is musically very similar to thrash. However later bands moved further away from thrash. I'm not a musician myself, so I can't tell you what it is musically, but there is generally a greater emphasis on atmosphere and the lyrics are considered evil for one reason or another. Of course there are no hard set rules, but most bands who are distinctly black metal follow them. marnues 04:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah, obviously Satyricon's Nemesis Divina and Tankard's Kings of Beer albums are identical! Come on! Ulfednar 06:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Why is this genre called black metal when most of the people in this scene are racists and fascists?
With regard to racist attitudes being the in the minority view, it is worth mentioning that prominent bands such as Darkthrone and Mayhem have racist comments and attitudes attributed to them. Fenriz caused a stir when he challenged that anyone daring to criticise a Darkthrone recording should be "patronised for their obvious jewish behaviour". The same recording also featured the slogan 'Norsk Arisk Black Metal' (Norwegian Aryan Black Metal) on the back. Hellhammer, drummer of Mayhem is also purported to have stated in an interview reprinted in Michael Moynihan's 'Lords Of Chaos' that Black Metal is for whites and the prime movers within the Norwegian scene despise black people and felt that the arson incidents would have served a better purpose if mosques or synagogues had been burned instead. Emgee 7 April '06
The term black metal is a pun on black magic, and in no way refers to black people. Though there are a prominent amount of racists within the black metal scene, it is unfair to say that "most of the people in this scene are racists and fascists".
First off i'd like to state that any person who considers there are more than one type of humans on Earth ( that being, obviously, PEOPLE ) is a racist! As long as idiots don't see that and try to "fight against discrimination" we'll have nothing good on our hands. Now that i got that off my chest, the fact that there are guys out there who, by their own persona, have something against something should have no effect on their music ( not saying lyrics, just music) and much less so on the genre they approach! I might me a gay-bashing mysoginistic racist xenophobic church-burning sonuvabitch, but if i just pick my guitar you won't be able to see that, will you? And "most of the people in this scene are racists and fascists?" is just another crappy invitation to unnecessary fucking-up of other human beings. More people like this and i'll get stabbed in the street for wearing my Satyricon shirt, thus showing off my alegiance to Satan, Nazis and The Ku Klux Klan! POWER TO THE PEOPLE! Mhrrr! Ulfednar 06:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Will people kindly stop replacing the faggoth and pakistani sections in this article without good reason PLEASE. Big in albania 00:38, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes this "faggoth" business is getting tiring. If you have any comments about its deletion, please put them above, in the section Concerning "faggoth". -- IronChris 01:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I started a discussion about subgenres on the talk page of the WikiProject Metal. Please discuss the issues about keeping or deleting the controversial sections there. Don't just delete or restore them without explaining yourself, or this will go on for ever. You can add other controversial sub-genres there if you like, and we can discuss them too. Let's reach an agreement at last, or this page will be condemned to endless reverts. -- IronChris 21:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Leyasu, can you explain why you restored the "faggoth" section? What AfD are you talking about? There has been a discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal#Faggoth (on the black metal page), to which you are of course welcome to participate, and for the moment there is unanimous opposition to this section (and several of the following ones). Restoring this section is therefore completely illogical. -- IronChris | (talk) 19:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Well obviously that AfD was not representative of most people's opinion, as shown by this discussion. Besides, next to no-one voted on the AfD, which also makes me think that it was not representative. It is obvious that if that AfD took place now, the outcome would be very different. I guess this is one of the reasons why voting is not encouraged on Wikipedia, and if we follow the guideline that discussions are better than polls, then this section should be deleted. Your commennts would have been greatly welcome in the discussion on the WkiProject Metal talk page, too bad you didn't think of drawing our attention to the AfD so that we could have taken it into account. -- IronChris | (talk) 20:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't know you were banned. I never said you were stupid, it's just that it would be a great deal easier if we could work together and not in opposition on this. I was in a hurry yesterday and may have appeared harsher than I wished to. I will not delete the faggoth section right away as I want to avoid edit wars (hence the discussion on the WikiProject page),but when I close the subject something will have to be done, AfD or no AfD. -- IronChris | (talk) 22:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Please get rid of this unsightly section. Faggoth is a derogatory term hurled at people who dress up goth and listen to trite. -- Lone Isle 15:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I should bring to the attention of this article that Varg Vikernes of Burzum no longer considers himself a nazi. In his article "A Burzum Story: Part VII - The Nazi Ghost" on www.burzum.org, he claims that he foolishly used the term Nazi in his youth to discribe his views. However he feels it no longer an accurate discription of his political views. He has been using the term "odalism" to discribe his views sence the late 90's. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.174.66.206 ( talk • contribs) .
These are totally terrible. I think (nearly) everyone agreed to have them deleted on the Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Metal#Faggoth_.28on_the_black_metal_page.29 page. If no one has strong objections, I'll remove them in the next couple of days or so... Spearhead 21:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Please do so. marnues 02:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
i have rewrote alot of stuff from the war metal section. it is a perfectly reasonable sub-genre with a large number of bands playing it. Info such as "troll metal" should be deleted, and probably "faggothic". but it might be worth mentioning that the term "faggothic" has been applied to a lot of bands, though is not a genre, usually an insult to the more melodic, gothic sounding black metal bands. what it says about 'faggoth' now is pretty accurate.
pemission to remove the 'disputed' banner from the war metal section? if anyone has any problemswith what it saya at the moment then post here and it can be discussed. but it most certainly is a sub-genre rather than just a pointless label. unsigned comment
I deleted Faggoth and Troll metal as per agreed above. I guess we can also safely a some undoing this is an act of vandalism? Since someone took some effort to re-write War metal, what do we do with this? Spearhead 15:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. i re-wrote the war metal article a few days ago (see above post) and its all be reverted to what it said before and is wildly inaccurate (to the point that i believe the person who originally wrote that has very little knowledge of the sub-genre at all). i was going to add quite a bit more because what i wrote last time was kind of rushed. why was it reverted? is what i wrote inaccurate? i know for a fact that what i wrote was a lot more bloody accurate than whats there now. e.g. "War metal is a black metal offshoot sub-genre that, since the release of a now infamous split between the bands Black Witchery and Conqueror, has been used to describe a certain sound". that split came out in 2001 and the term has been in use for much longer than that, as well as a large number of war metal bands existing prior to that!
Ive changed it back to its previous form (what i wrote) and changed a few parts but ill probably re-write a lot of it as its a bit poorly-worded. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.219.131.2 ( talk • contribs) .
Ley Shade 15:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
"Vandal, vandalism, violation of AfD, block, ban"... Are these the only words you can come up with, LS? I thought that Wikipedia was based on discussion, but it's obvious that for you it's based on threatening other people. I think I've read 3 or 4 messages today from you saying "don't do this or I will get you banned". Which, considering the number of times you got blocked yourself is some heavy irony. PLEASE stop this annoying conduct, if you have a point, give your arguments. If there's a policy you cite, give the link. We're all ready to see your arguments and weigh them up like we do for anyone else.
About the AfDs, I haven't seen any policy that says that they are the final word. On the contrary, it seems to me that an AfD only serves to try to reach a concensus, and if no clear concensus is reached, it can be overlooked. You are so fond of citing WP:NOT, so I think you should re-read the section WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy about how wikipedia is based on discussion, not voting, and certainly not threats. If you followed just that, it would make things considerably more easy and enjoyable for yourself and for everyone else.
And please don't say "IronChris, WP:NPA!", because there is no personal attack to be found here, just advice. Iron C hris | (talk) 18:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Just a little question, should there be a mention of "true black metal" in the article? It's an expression that's quite widespread (85200 google hits for example) for bands such as Emperor or Abigor. I think there should be something about it in the subforms. Tell me what you think. IronChris | (talk) 16:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
NO. There is no such thing as true black metal, it is simply called Black Metal. It's the new black metal that is different (modern black metal) and there are other similar genres of black metal, like symphonic black, necro black, etc.. People may use the phrase "tr00" or "kvlt" when trying to look cool or describe the age of certain black metal, but it's not a genre or any kind of classification. The genres are so overly messed up in metal because of people who are uneducated, or new to the scenes. -- Oinkness 23:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Every time I search for a subject to find information on, there is a discussion going on about wrong information, debates about relativity between genres, and all kinds of crap. Seriously, I looked for battle metal and it brought me to the black metal page. Black metal and battle metal are NOT THE SAME or similar at all, despite any possibly influencial relations between the genres. Thus, they should not be grouped into a single wiki... Battle Metal shouldn't be stuck on the black metal page, just as progressive metal is not the same as progressive rock.
I know, sometimes it can be confusing all these different metal genres, but it's really not that hard to figure out. There is no influence on black metal from punk, that is an ignorant statement. There may be punk influence on INDUSTRIAL BLACK METAL, but that's a completely different genre.
Thanks for taking the time to read. :) -- Oinkness 23:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
What is Battle Metal anyway? Ulfednar 06:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Does this section warrant inclusion. Methinks it is made a minor, or even a made-up genre name that has no place on WP. Spearhead 22:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
1) is war metal more of a genre than NSBM? (because nsbm is a genre with only one specific characteristic, the bands political ideology, which is irrelevent to the music especially seeing as many nsbm bands do not use NS-orientated lyrics. graveland for example. whereas war metal has specific MUSICAL characteristics.) 2) "troll metal". what i wrote wasn't a snide comment towards the "sub-genre of troll metal", but a fact that war metal isn't dictated by lyrics, but by musical factors. try asking for 'troll metal' reccomendations on a forum and see what responses you get. then try asking for war metal reccomendations on a forum and you'll see the same names come up on any metal forum (i.e. blasphemy, conqueror, AoA etc) But as far as im concerned you can delete the whole war metal part of this article. i added some info (which ive been meaning to make more detailed), but ive used wikipedia as a source of info long enough to know that its wildly innaccurate to the point of being worthless.