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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I don't agree that the logo of the recently formed neo-Nazi group Antipodean Resistance is very relevant to the text. The group is not mentioned in the article at all, and the only source for the logo is the group's own website, rather than any reliable, secondary source. As such, the use of the image is unduly weighted and seems purely decorative. The logo itself, presented as it is with no context, doesn't illustrate how it might be used; all it does is increase the visibility of the group using it, which is a form of promotion. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:59, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
The reliability of the ADL and SPLC’s claims about the history and name of this symbol is the topic of a thread at Wikipedia’s reliable sources notice board ( [1]. :bloodofox: ( talk) 01:32, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
I added logos of neo-Nazi groups that use the black sun in their logos, and an editor deleted them as "cruft." I'd like that editor to explain here how those symbols are any more cruft that the SS runes above. I'd rather do this informally. but I'll start an RfC if necessary. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
Sangdeboeuf Grayfell Slatersteven I feel like we recently had a thorough and civil discussion about this and reached a consensus to remove. Care to share your thoughts on the subject with BMK? Bacondrum ( talk) 00:09, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Should the logos of those neo-Nazi groups which integrate the Black Sun symbol be used in the article? Beyond My Ken ( talk) 02:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Given this, the explicit information that some neo-Nazi groups use the Black Sun symbol, it would seem odd not to show those logos to the reader, so that they can see exactly how those groups integrate the Black Sun into their logos. The two logos shown are -- as far as I am aware -- the only ones that are available on Commons which fit the criteria.For those concerned that showing the symbol somehow glorifies those groups, I had reduced the size of the logos to as small a size as possible and still see the Black Sun clearly. [3] For those concerned that we shouldn't encourage people to consider joining these groups, all I can say is that we do not say anything positive about them, and, besides, we do not act in loco parentis to our readers; in any case what they do with their lives is very unlikely to be swayed by seeing a logo in a Wikipedia article.Further, as WP:IMAGES says: Since Wikipedia is not censored, readers and editors may come across offensive images.There is, in fact, no real valid reason to exclude these logos, which is why the previous discussion (which involved only four people, several of whom I have great respect for) was so unpersuasive. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 02:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)The Black Sun symbol is widely associated with neo-fascism and neo-Nazism.[8] It is utilized by far-right neo-Nazis, neo-volkisch movements, and white nationalists. The symbol often appears on extremist flags, t-shirts, posters, websites and in extremist publications associated with such groups. Modern far-right groups often refer to the symbol as the sun wheel or Sonnenrad.[5][9][10]
A number of far-right groups and individuals have utilised the symbol in their propaganda, including the Christchurch mosque shooter, Australian neo-Nazi group Antipodean Resistance, and Ukrainian far-right National Guard regiment Azov Battalion.[11] The symbol was displayed by members of several extremist groups involved in the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.[12]
On Wikipedia, the general concept is that concepts should not be censored, and that media which illustrates such concepts should likewise not be censored, if it has encyclopedic value. Determining whether something has encyclopedic value is subjective and debated....
Zezen ( talk) 10:17, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
images of the logos being worn as badges or waved as flagsetc. By saying we should
avoid showing the logos in a flat wayyou seem to be arguing against these specific images. – Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:01, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
large and already notorious group? Do we really want to boost the profile of a militia that has only existed since 2014, especially since the academic works describing the symbol's use by far-right groups date from the early 2000s? That seems like a WP:RECENTISM issue. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 01:07, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
The Arch-absurd: According to the assertion of Beelzebub, our Sun neither lights or heats...
Hm? Zezen ( talk) 10:01, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
The black sun is an alchemical symbol and a neo-pagan symbol more generally -- I'm not sure that the Nazi symbol should be called "black sun" but rather I think it should be named "Nazi Black Sun". Their version is very specific. Not all black sun motifs are Nazi. StarTigerJLN ( talk) 06:09, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a strong consensus against the proposed target, since "Nazi" is not part of the name, and no consensus whether it should be moved to Black Sun (Nazi symbol), default to remaining at the current location. ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 07:17, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Black Sun (symbol) → Nazi Black Sun (symbol) – Nazi Black Sun is more appropriate name; the "black sun" is a common Jungian and neo-pagan symbol not directly associated with Nazis and the Nazi symbol is very specific and does not look like the general black sun symbol in alchemy and neo-paganism. The current location is very unfair to alchemists and neo-pagans, who are not generally Nazi. header = Rename this? StarTigerJLN ( talk) 06:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( non-admin closure) Vpab15 ( talk) 13:32, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Black Sun (symbol) →
Black Sun (Nazi symbol) – Following up on the above discussion. There was no consensus for this more specific title. But just regarding symbols, I'm not sure we have a
primary topic (that is, the present title
insufficiently disambiguates) between this and
Sol niger, the alchemical symbol also called "black sun". The latter certainly has had more
enduring notability. Although it's debatable whether the Sol niger is more a metaphor than a symbol per se. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk)
22:44, 21 March 2021 (UTC) edited 00:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
I disagree in this page that the spokes of the sun are sig runes. This should be removed. When you look historically at the shape of the rune, every rune shape has the horizontal portion on an angle with both the vertical portions of equal length. What is portrayed in the mosaic contains neither. This should be removed from this article unless otherwise proven as fact.
Only anti-Satanic views here. Thobold ( talk) 11:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Well-referenced? From where? I only see one citation and it's just some book by some guy with a lot of bad reviews for being biased. I can't find a single image of the Church of Satan using the Sonnenrad anywhere online. Somebody simply saying that something happened isn't proof, even if they put it in text. 7:48, 28 February 2021 (EST)
Boyd Rice, a prominent ex-spokesperson for the CoS, references the Black Sun a lot, maybe whoever first referenced it as being used by the CoS was conflating the two? He also uses the Wolfsangel. The CoS does use a lightning bolt logo reminiscent of Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists. LaVey embraced Social Darwinism in The Satanic Bible. So there is some crossover between satanic and fascist symbolism in the CoS and individual satanists. Somewhat off-topic but maybe it could prove useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB19:8D57:9E00:D58:7A23:E8CD:465A ( talk) 19:35, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived. |
This source seems to have a lot to say about the symbolism of the Schwarze Sonne ('black sun'), but it's a bit much for me to go through sentence-by-sentence with a machine translator. I'm parking it here in case anyone fluent in German feels like summarizing it for the article. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 02:05, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Why do these keep getting removed? No real explanation has been given other than one editor not liking it. They seem to me to be useful, self evident examples of its use by neo-fascists/neo-Nazis - I can't see how they could possibly be seen as undue. This kind of example is a great way to inform readers as to how it is used by such groups. Its use by fascists is the reason I first came to this page, I saw a member of Antipodean Resistance at a Cosmic Psychos gig wearing one, he was confronted and removed from the venue as a result - I wondered what this strange esoteric Nazi symbol actually meant, so I came here. I think its safe to say most people will encounter it for the first time via neo-Nazi groups, why not give an example or two of its use by them. Bacondrum ( talk) 22:38, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
The Satanism section seems to be getting a fair amount of attention, and probably places too much emphasis on a single source. Should we reduce this section down to a sentence or something? If so, where in the body would it go? :bloodofox: ( talk) 00:04, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
We have had a few (presumably) Satanists trying to edit the article to disassociate Satanism from this symbol, which is fair enough as the quote specifically says that it is Neo-Nazi Satanists that use it and no decent, God fearing Satanist would want to be associated with them. ;-) Unfortunately, they didn't do a great job so I have reverted those changes and, instead, tweaked the section slightly to make it absolutely clear that we are only talking about Neo-Nazi Satanists and not Satanists in general. I hope that will keep everybody happy. (OK. I don't care if the Neo-Nazis are happy. I hope it will keep everybody else happy.) -- DanielRigal ( talk) 21:30, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
It is used by Nordicists, which is not the same since they also discriminate against people who are technically white, such as Arabs and other Mediterraneans. Dreadjonas ( talk) 06:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
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Where it says that some satanists use the symbol, the text is being too vague and broad, which has been causing some recurring misinterpretations where people [frequently on reddit] quote this article to say that "it is a satanic symbol" when it is not. There's no evidence of the Church Of Satan having used any germanic imagery [not even the wolfsangel, that is also unsourcedly mentioned on this article], nor of independent LaVeyans doing so. There is, however, some examples of members of a far-right, theistic satanist organization, called Order of Nine Angles, using it, not because they are satanists, but because they are nazi, which makes the whole thing redundant.
My suggestion is for the parts where it says just "satanism" to be replaced with either "theistic satanism groups" or "far-right satanist organizations" to make it clearer, or just "nazi occultism", as it would be more coherent with the rest of the text, since the quote from the source [12] already states that it is a "esoteric neo-nazi" thing. 2001:1284:F016:243F:593B:4073:1A15:5174 ( talk) 19:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
The introduction of this article claims the Black Sun symbol originated in Nazi Germany - this is objectively false. Sources here and here. Even the ADL acknowledges it is an ancient Norse symbol, which has been found on Norse and Celtic artifacts throughout Europe and Britain. ClairelyClaire ( talk) 16:57, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
This symbol can be traced back to the Norse, and is NOT a racist symbol. It is the sonnenrod, the black sun, representing events of ragnarok, when the wolf swallow the sun. The fact that this and many other norse symbols were stolen by the Nazis, does not make this a nazi symbol. 2601:280:4F81:1330:4516:62A4:74D4:4C63 ( talk) 22:49, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Hey SlaterSteven, we see you reverted sourced edits adding information about the symbol's widespread use by the Ukrainian National Guard. Quit trying to downplay this and face the facts. Quit the damn edit war and grow the fuck up. You support Nazis and you're taking advantage of your space on this website to promote a narrative and hide the truth.
I'm having trouble adding references for the NATO tweet and other media outlets that show this symbol on soldiers in Ukraine. If anyone wants to add these references, here are the links: The (deleted) tweet by NATO: https://web.archive.org/web/20220308120102/https://twitter.com/NATO/status/1501146212938010628
GettyImagesNews tweet where the symbol in white can be clearly seen: https://twitter.com/GettyImagesNews/status/1500491702880153604 (archived at: https://web.archive.org/web/20220307002123/https://twitter.com/GettyImagesNews/status/1500491702880153604)
The tweet by the MFA of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1501086279026552832 (archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20220308064357/https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1501086279026552832) — Preceding unsigned comment added by D.milivojevic ( talk • contribs) 15:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Those of you here who have been following the Wagner Group/PMC Wagner will be well aware that the group appears to be both at the very least closely connected to the Russian government and to forms of neo-Nazism. With that in mind, it would be no surprise to find Wagner (or a notable amount of its members) using this symbol. However, coverage of this has so far been lacking. In 2021, this source from New Lines Magazine (see Fairfax_University_of_America#Newlines_Institute_for_Strategy_and_Policy) connects PMC Wagner and the symbol, but confuses it with another type of Sonennrad, the Kolovrat:
And:
The symbol referred to so commonly today as the "Kolovrat" is a popular symbol in eastern Europe, where it is often (but not exclusively) associated with nationalist movements. The motif has a long history: It can be found on, for example, ancient Greek pottery. Meanwhile, an important aspect of the so-called Black Sun is that it is not just any Sonnenrad but that the image derives directly form Himmler's remodel of Wewelsburg, appearing to invoke SS imagery. The two are related but not the same. Additionally, some material from the ADL's entry for "Sonnenrad" was also recently reintroduced here, which I removed—for those of you who were not a part of that discussion, you can find it above. We need to keep the source threshold as high as possible on this and other articles. :bloodofox: ( talk) 05:40, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
So I've removed the following text from the article per WP:CoatRack:
"The Azov Battalion in particular has since become a point of propaganda for the Russian government and Russian president Vladimir Putin during Russia's invasion of Ukraine, who have sought to frame the invasion as "denazification". Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who is Jewish, has responded by stating that Russia's invasion of Ukraine was comparable to those of Nazi Germany and that Putin exhibits "pure Nazi behavior"."
This is veering way too far off track for an article about the symbol. It should be sufficient to simply note in passing that Azov and some other far-right groups in Ukraine have used the symbol. Discussions about Russian government claims and Ukrainian government counter-claims don't fit with an article about the symbol. Such discourse would fit with articles about Azov, the war, etc., but not with the Black Sun article. People wanting more discussion specific to Azov and Russia/Ukraine can click on the relevant articles. - 2003:CA:8724:7B45:B8E5:F28E:DB4D:4EE7 ( talk) 23:06, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Sigh, apparently in response to my removal of coatracking, so editors have now added even more coatracking....To be very clear, even if WP:RS say something, this does not outweigh WP:CoatRack. Go edit the relevant article, but discussions about Zelensky being Jewish are simply not relevant here, as this is an article about the symbol, NOT about Russia/Ukraine. An in-passing mention that Azov has used the symbol is sufficient. I get that some people want to push the whole "Ukraine good, Russia bad" narrative, but this article simply isn't the place, and the sort of extensive extremely tangential discussions that we've seen here are textbook examples of coatracking! - 2003:CA:8724:7BAA:C05:9D20:33F5:E165 ( talk) 00:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
So the article is a difficult topic, but knowing how crazy and cultish ideologies emerge is important which is the motivation behind adding that cited section. @ Bloodofox: has reverted this content as "out of nowhere". I sort of see the concern as perhaps it could be placed in a different section from the Wewelsburg mosaic, but the cited source also indicated a direct connection, mentioned is the Wiligut to Himmler ideology in wiki-text and cited book pages, while others are discussed on other book pages. The content was referenced to Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke who is already used in this article as one of the key scholars on the topic, with the same book: Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity (2002 republished 2003) Google Books version to verify references for key statements. Goodrick-Clarke also covered just how strange the early-to-mid 20th century, far-right conspiracy theories and mysticism was as the Nazi ideology emerged. These bizarre ideas contributed in some way to the invention of the "Black Sun" symbol as the source shows is relevant. Goodrick-Clarke connected this to certain concepts in Theosophy of the late 1800s and the more ideological Ariosophy cult of the 1910s. If you can elaborate on exactly what sourcing or context problem you see, that would be appreciated. -- Rauisuchian ( talk) 00:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
"In may 2022, a mass shooting in Buffalo, New York occurred. The shooter, a white supremacist, wore the Black Sun symbol on his body armor and placed it on the front of his digital manifesto. Because the Azov Battalion also uses the symbol (the symbol is popular in white nationalist circles), pro-Kremlin Telegram channels and influencers subsequently spread misinformation linking the shooter with the Azov Batallion and the Ukrainian nation more broadly. However, the shooter makes no reference to the Azov Batallion in his manifesto, and Ukraine receives only a single mention in a section plagiarized from an earlier mass shooter's manifesto that predates the Russian invasion of Ukraine.[15] "
This statement is nonsensical ("there's no connection to Azov, they both just love nazi symbols".. ok? I guess?) contradictory (azov article, after having been scrubbed note, make no mention of them being nazis. ..But here it's said "the symbol is popular in white nationalist circles" as in confirming Azov to be nazis or sorry, "white nationalists") and it's clearly POV. "Misinformation"? According to who and why should that be said as a factual statement? "Linking" how? They seem clearly linked in choice of symbols, and so apparently, ideology - quote "the symbol is popular in white nationalist circles". Overall, this statement is just confused and should probably be removed. 2.249.140.219 ( talk) 20:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Agreed the statement is nonsense connecting to Azov as it appeared on Russian telegram channels… I though my proper sources were supposed to be used - Russian propaganda.. Conorag ( talk) 21:06, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
An editor has removed "see also" links to Z (military symbol) and Rashism, which I've reverted, but it doesn't end there. See discussion on this talk page. :bloodofox: ( talk) 01:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I don't agree that the logo of the recently formed neo-Nazi group Antipodean Resistance is very relevant to the text. The group is not mentioned in the article at all, and the only source for the logo is the group's own website, rather than any reliable, secondary source. As such, the use of the image is unduly weighted and seems purely decorative. The logo itself, presented as it is with no context, doesn't illustrate how it might be used; all it does is increase the visibility of the group using it, which is a form of promotion. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:59, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
The reliability of the ADL and SPLC’s claims about the history and name of this symbol is the topic of a thread at Wikipedia’s reliable sources notice board ( [1]. :bloodofox: ( talk) 01:32, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
I added logos of neo-Nazi groups that use the black sun in their logos, and an editor deleted them as "cruft." I'd like that editor to explain here how those symbols are any more cruft that the SS runes above. I'd rather do this informally. but I'll start an RfC if necessary. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
Sangdeboeuf Grayfell Slatersteven I feel like we recently had a thorough and civil discussion about this and reached a consensus to remove. Care to share your thoughts on the subject with BMK? Bacondrum ( talk) 00:09, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Should the logos of those neo-Nazi groups which integrate the Black Sun symbol be used in the article? Beyond My Ken ( talk) 02:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Given this, the explicit information that some neo-Nazi groups use the Black Sun symbol, it would seem odd not to show those logos to the reader, so that they can see exactly how those groups integrate the Black Sun into their logos. The two logos shown are -- as far as I am aware -- the only ones that are available on Commons which fit the criteria.For those concerned that showing the symbol somehow glorifies those groups, I had reduced the size of the logos to as small a size as possible and still see the Black Sun clearly. [3] For those concerned that we shouldn't encourage people to consider joining these groups, all I can say is that we do not say anything positive about them, and, besides, we do not act in loco parentis to our readers; in any case what they do with their lives is very unlikely to be swayed by seeing a logo in a Wikipedia article.Further, as WP:IMAGES says: Since Wikipedia is not censored, readers and editors may come across offensive images.There is, in fact, no real valid reason to exclude these logos, which is why the previous discussion (which involved only four people, several of whom I have great respect for) was so unpersuasive. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 02:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)The Black Sun symbol is widely associated with neo-fascism and neo-Nazism.[8] It is utilized by far-right neo-Nazis, neo-volkisch movements, and white nationalists. The symbol often appears on extremist flags, t-shirts, posters, websites and in extremist publications associated with such groups. Modern far-right groups often refer to the symbol as the sun wheel or Sonnenrad.[5][9][10]
A number of far-right groups and individuals have utilised the symbol in their propaganda, including the Christchurch mosque shooter, Australian neo-Nazi group Antipodean Resistance, and Ukrainian far-right National Guard regiment Azov Battalion.[11] The symbol was displayed by members of several extremist groups involved in the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.[12]
On Wikipedia, the general concept is that concepts should not be censored, and that media which illustrates such concepts should likewise not be censored, if it has encyclopedic value. Determining whether something has encyclopedic value is subjective and debated....
Zezen ( talk) 10:17, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
images of the logos being worn as badges or waved as flagsetc. By saying we should
avoid showing the logos in a flat wayyou seem to be arguing against these specific images. – Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:01, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
large and already notorious group? Do we really want to boost the profile of a militia that has only existed since 2014, especially since the academic works describing the symbol's use by far-right groups date from the early 2000s? That seems like a WP:RECENTISM issue. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 01:07, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
The Arch-absurd: According to the assertion of Beelzebub, our Sun neither lights or heats...
Hm? Zezen ( talk) 10:01, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
The black sun is an alchemical symbol and a neo-pagan symbol more generally -- I'm not sure that the Nazi symbol should be called "black sun" but rather I think it should be named "Nazi Black Sun". Their version is very specific. Not all black sun motifs are Nazi. StarTigerJLN ( talk) 06:09, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a strong consensus against the proposed target, since "Nazi" is not part of the name, and no consensus whether it should be moved to Black Sun (Nazi symbol), default to remaining at the current location. ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 07:17, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Black Sun (symbol) → Nazi Black Sun (symbol) – Nazi Black Sun is more appropriate name; the "black sun" is a common Jungian and neo-pagan symbol not directly associated with Nazis and the Nazi symbol is very specific and does not look like the general black sun symbol in alchemy and neo-paganism. The current location is very unfair to alchemists and neo-pagans, who are not generally Nazi. header = Rename this? StarTigerJLN ( talk) 06:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( non-admin closure) Vpab15 ( talk) 13:32, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Black Sun (symbol) →
Black Sun (Nazi symbol) – Following up on the above discussion. There was no consensus for this more specific title. But just regarding symbols, I'm not sure we have a
primary topic (that is, the present title
insufficiently disambiguates) between this and
Sol niger, the alchemical symbol also called "black sun". The latter certainly has had more
enduring notability. Although it's debatable whether the Sol niger is more a metaphor than a symbol per se. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk)
22:44, 21 March 2021 (UTC) edited 00:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
I disagree in this page that the spokes of the sun are sig runes. This should be removed. When you look historically at the shape of the rune, every rune shape has the horizontal portion on an angle with both the vertical portions of equal length. What is portrayed in the mosaic contains neither. This should be removed from this article unless otherwise proven as fact.
Only anti-Satanic views here. Thobold ( talk) 11:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Well-referenced? From where? I only see one citation and it's just some book by some guy with a lot of bad reviews for being biased. I can't find a single image of the Church of Satan using the Sonnenrad anywhere online. Somebody simply saying that something happened isn't proof, even if they put it in text. 7:48, 28 February 2021 (EST)
Boyd Rice, a prominent ex-spokesperson for the CoS, references the Black Sun a lot, maybe whoever first referenced it as being used by the CoS was conflating the two? He also uses the Wolfsangel. The CoS does use a lightning bolt logo reminiscent of Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists. LaVey embraced Social Darwinism in The Satanic Bible. So there is some crossover between satanic and fascist symbolism in the CoS and individual satanists. Somewhat off-topic but maybe it could prove useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB19:8D57:9E00:D58:7A23:E8CD:465A ( talk) 19:35, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived. |
This source seems to have a lot to say about the symbolism of the Schwarze Sonne ('black sun'), but it's a bit much for me to go through sentence-by-sentence with a machine translator. I'm parking it here in case anyone fluent in German feels like summarizing it for the article. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 02:05, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Why do these keep getting removed? No real explanation has been given other than one editor not liking it. They seem to me to be useful, self evident examples of its use by neo-fascists/neo-Nazis - I can't see how they could possibly be seen as undue. This kind of example is a great way to inform readers as to how it is used by such groups. Its use by fascists is the reason I first came to this page, I saw a member of Antipodean Resistance at a Cosmic Psychos gig wearing one, he was confronted and removed from the venue as a result - I wondered what this strange esoteric Nazi symbol actually meant, so I came here. I think its safe to say most people will encounter it for the first time via neo-Nazi groups, why not give an example or two of its use by them. Bacondrum ( talk) 22:38, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
The Satanism section seems to be getting a fair amount of attention, and probably places too much emphasis on a single source. Should we reduce this section down to a sentence or something? If so, where in the body would it go? :bloodofox: ( talk) 00:04, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
We have had a few (presumably) Satanists trying to edit the article to disassociate Satanism from this symbol, which is fair enough as the quote specifically says that it is Neo-Nazi Satanists that use it and no decent, God fearing Satanist would want to be associated with them. ;-) Unfortunately, they didn't do a great job so I have reverted those changes and, instead, tweaked the section slightly to make it absolutely clear that we are only talking about Neo-Nazi Satanists and not Satanists in general. I hope that will keep everybody happy. (OK. I don't care if the Neo-Nazis are happy. I hope it will keep everybody else happy.) -- DanielRigal ( talk) 21:30, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
It is used by Nordicists, which is not the same since they also discriminate against people who are technically white, such as Arabs and other Mediterraneans. Dreadjonas ( talk) 06:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
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Where it says that some satanists use the symbol, the text is being too vague and broad, which has been causing some recurring misinterpretations where people [frequently on reddit] quote this article to say that "it is a satanic symbol" when it is not. There's no evidence of the Church Of Satan having used any germanic imagery [not even the wolfsangel, that is also unsourcedly mentioned on this article], nor of independent LaVeyans doing so. There is, however, some examples of members of a far-right, theistic satanist organization, called Order of Nine Angles, using it, not because they are satanists, but because they are nazi, which makes the whole thing redundant.
My suggestion is for the parts where it says just "satanism" to be replaced with either "theistic satanism groups" or "far-right satanist organizations" to make it clearer, or just "nazi occultism", as it would be more coherent with the rest of the text, since the quote from the source [12] already states that it is a "esoteric neo-nazi" thing. 2001:1284:F016:243F:593B:4073:1A15:5174 ( talk) 19:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
The introduction of this article claims the Black Sun symbol originated in Nazi Germany - this is objectively false. Sources here and here. Even the ADL acknowledges it is an ancient Norse symbol, which has been found on Norse and Celtic artifacts throughout Europe and Britain. ClairelyClaire ( talk) 16:57, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
This symbol can be traced back to the Norse, and is NOT a racist symbol. It is the sonnenrod, the black sun, representing events of ragnarok, when the wolf swallow the sun. The fact that this and many other norse symbols were stolen by the Nazis, does not make this a nazi symbol. 2601:280:4F81:1330:4516:62A4:74D4:4C63 ( talk) 22:49, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Hey SlaterSteven, we see you reverted sourced edits adding information about the symbol's widespread use by the Ukrainian National Guard. Quit trying to downplay this and face the facts. Quit the damn edit war and grow the fuck up. You support Nazis and you're taking advantage of your space on this website to promote a narrative and hide the truth.
I'm having trouble adding references for the NATO tweet and other media outlets that show this symbol on soldiers in Ukraine. If anyone wants to add these references, here are the links: The (deleted) tweet by NATO: https://web.archive.org/web/20220308120102/https://twitter.com/NATO/status/1501146212938010628
GettyImagesNews tweet where the symbol in white can be clearly seen: https://twitter.com/GettyImagesNews/status/1500491702880153604 (archived at: https://web.archive.org/web/20220307002123/https://twitter.com/GettyImagesNews/status/1500491702880153604)
The tweet by the MFA of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1501086279026552832 (archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20220308064357/https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1501086279026552832) — Preceding unsigned comment added by D.milivojevic ( talk • contribs) 15:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Those of you here who have been following the Wagner Group/PMC Wagner will be well aware that the group appears to be both at the very least closely connected to the Russian government and to forms of neo-Nazism. With that in mind, it would be no surprise to find Wagner (or a notable amount of its members) using this symbol. However, coverage of this has so far been lacking. In 2021, this source from New Lines Magazine (see Fairfax_University_of_America#Newlines_Institute_for_Strategy_and_Policy) connects PMC Wagner and the symbol, but confuses it with another type of Sonennrad, the Kolovrat:
And:
The symbol referred to so commonly today as the "Kolovrat" is a popular symbol in eastern Europe, where it is often (but not exclusively) associated with nationalist movements. The motif has a long history: It can be found on, for example, ancient Greek pottery. Meanwhile, an important aspect of the so-called Black Sun is that it is not just any Sonnenrad but that the image derives directly form Himmler's remodel of Wewelsburg, appearing to invoke SS imagery. The two are related but not the same. Additionally, some material from the ADL's entry for "Sonnenrad" was also recently reintroduced here, which I removed—for those of you who were not a part of that discussion, you can find it above. We need to keep the source threshold as high as possible on this and other articles. :bloodofox: ( talk) 05:40, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
So I've removed the following text from the article per WP:CoatRack:
"The Azov Battalion in particular has since become a point of propaganda for the Russian government and Russian president Vladimir Putin during Russia's invasion of Ukraine, who have sought to frame the invasion as "denazification". Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who is Jewish, has responded by stating that Russia's invasion of Ukraine was comparable to those of Nazi Germany and that Putin exhibits "pure Nazi behavior"."
This is veering way too far off track for an article about the symbol. It should be sufficient to simply note in passing that Azov and some other far-right groups in Ukraine have used the symbol. Discussions about Russian government claims and Ukrainian government counter-claims don't fit with an article about the symbol. Such discourse would fit with articles about Azov, the war, etc., but not with the Black Sun article. People wanting more discussion specific to Azov and Russia/Ukraine can click on the relevant articles. - 2003:CA:8724:7B45:B8E5:F28E:DB4D:4EE7 ( talk) 23:06, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Sigh, apparently in response to my removal of coatracking, so editors have now added even more coatracking....To be very clear, even if WP:RS say something, this does not outweigh WP:CoatRack. Go edit the relevant article, but discussions about Zelensky being Jewish are simply not relevant here, as this is an article about the symbol, NOT about Russia/Ukraine. An in-passing mention that Azov has used the symbol is sufficient. I get that some people want to push the whole "Ukraine good, Russia bad" narrative, but this article simply isn't the place, and the sort of extensive extremely tangential discussions that we've seen here are textbook examples of coatracking! - 2003:CA:8724:7BAA:C05:9D20:33F5:E165 ( talk) 00:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
So the article is a difficult topic, but knowing how crazy and cultish ideologies emerge is important which is the motivation behind adding that cited section. @ Bloodofox: has reverted this content as "out of nowhere". I sort of see the concern as perhaps it could be placed in a different section from the Wewelsburg mosaic, but the cited source also indicated a direct connection, mentioned is the Wiligut to Himmler ideology in wiki-text and cited book pages, while others are discussed on other book pages. The content was referenced to Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke who is already used in this article as one of the key scholars on the topic, with the same book: Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity (2002 republished 2003) Google Books version to verify references for key statements. Goodrick-Clarke also covered just how strange the early-to-mid 20th century, far-right conspiracy theories and mysticism was as the Nazi ideology emerged. These bizarre ideas contributed in some way to the invention of the "Black Sun" symbol as the source shows is relevant. Goodrick-Clarke connected this to certain concepts in Theosophy of the late 1800s and the more ideological Ariosophy cult of the 1910s. If you can elaborate on exactly what sourcing or context problem you see, that would be appreciated. -- Rauisuchian ( talk) 00:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
"In may 2022, a mass shooting in Buffalo, New York occurred. The shooter, a white supremacist, wore the Black Sun symbol on his body armor and placed it on the front of his digital manifesto. Because the Azov Battalion also uses the symbol (the symbol is popular in white nationalist circles), pro-Kremlin Telegram channels and influencers subsequently spread misinformation linking the shooter with the Azov Batallion and the Ukrainian nation more broadly. However, the shooter makes no reference to the Azov Batallion in his manifesto, and Ukraine receives only a single mention in a section plagiarized from an earlier mass shooter's manifesto that predates the Russian invasion of Ukraine.[15] "
This statement is nonsensical ("there's no connection to Azov, they both just love nazi symbols".. ok? I guess?) contradictory (azov article, after having been scrubbed note, make no mention of them being nazis. ..But here it's said "the symbol is popular in white nationalist circles" as in confirming Azov to be nazis or sorry, "white nationalists") and it's clearly POV. "Misinformation"? According to who and why should that be said as a factual statement? "Linking" how? They seem clearly linked in choice of symbols, and so apparently, ideology - quote "the symbol is popular in white nationalist circles". Overall, this statement is just confused and should probably be removed. 2.249.140.219 ( talk) 20:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Agreed the statement is nonsense connecting to Azov as it appeared on Russian telegram channels… I though my proper sources were supposed to be used - Russian propaganda.. Conorag ( talk) 21:06, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
An editor has removed "see also" links to Z (military symbol) and Rashism, which I've reverted, but it doesn't end there. See discussion on this talk page. :bloodofox: ( talk) 01:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)