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I've always wanted to learn more about this operation, so am pleased to review this article. I'll post comments later this weekend.
Nick-D (
talk)
04:09, 23 July 2016 (UTC)reply
Comments
"was an Ottoman naval sortie against Russian ports" - the key German role should be acknowledged upfront, as the main warships involved were really only nominally Ottoman
The first and third paras in the Background section need references, and some other parts of the article aren't referenced at present
The first para of the background section also covers too much ground too briefly, and should be expanded (eg, when did Germany and Turkey establish an alliance, and what were the German ships doing in the area)
"and that he planned on securing the support of Djemal Pasha" - the support for what?
" who, along with his ship, had been transferred to the Ottoman Navy" - this should be covered in more detail
Did Souchon seek to inflict any significant damage on the Russian ports, or did he only want to start a war and get out of the area?
"Souchon radioed Istanbul" - presumably he radioed a headquarters located in the city, and not the city itself
"British forces in the Mediterranean finally responded" - "finally" seems out of place: did they deliberately delay acting on their orders, or were they unprepared for them? A 24 hour period between receiving orders to go to war and getting forces into position would be considered pretty good by most modern naval forces.
"On 3 November British warships bombarded outer forts in the Dardanelles. Two days later they extended their declaration of war " - this wording is a bit unclear: the fleet didn't declare war, the British Government did.
It's a bit odd for British PM Lloyd George to be referred to as merely a "critic"
Please provide page numbers for the Kieser, Halpern and Kent references
Please give specific page references for Fromkin - it's referenced too many times for a five page range to be suitable
Please provide bibliographic details for the Tucker reference
Hi
Nick-D. Thank you for the thorough and helpful review. Unfortunately, I'm heading out of town for a week myself, so my ability to revise the article as you've suggested is, for the time being, limited. Since I'm leaving today, I must be brief in my response. I'll go over what I can:
"was an Ottoman naval sortie against Russian ports" - the key German role should be acknowledged upfront, as the main warships involved were really only nominally Ottoman
I've put in the first sentence that it was "supported by Germany". I did say already in the first paragraph that the attack was orchestrated by the German Admiral Wilhelm Souchon and the German Foreign Ministry (in addition to Enver Pasha). If you have a more direct suggestion on how to word this than I will gladly listen.
"and that he planned on securing the support of Djemal Pasha" - the support for what?
It was through Djemal Pasha, the Minister of the Navy, that Enver Pasha was able to influence the fleet. His cooperation was necessary so Enver and Souchon could order the raid. (If necessary, I can add sourced info to the article that discusses how Djemal facilitated Enver's work).
I've added a bit more information on Djemal's role. There isn't really much to go off of, but he did stop actively opposing Souchon's actions (like he did previously), and it was both he and Enver that gave Souchon attack orders.
Did Souchon seek to inflict any significant damage on the Russian ports, or did he only want to start a war and get out of the area?
No sources have really made this clear to me, but based off of the quotes of his I've seen, I would assume the latter.
"Souchon radioed Istanbul" - presumably he radioed a headquarters located in the city, and not the city itself
I would agree, but no source directly states that. It's also possible he sent a message directly addressed for Djemal, Enver, or even the Porte. To be completely transparent, I believe the source where I found this info said verbatim that he "sent a message to Istanbul" while still far out at sea. So I'm assuming that he used a
wireless telegraph.
Lots of style guides recommend against referring to localities where specific institutions are meant. How about changing this to "Souchon dispatched a radio signal...". The context for this clear from the remainder of the sentence.
Nick-D (
talk)
07:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)reply
The only sources I've found that talk about this just say that he "radioed/sent wire" to "Istanbul/Constantinople." Nothing so far has given me a clear indication on where exactly this message ended up.
"British forces in the Mediterranean finally responded" - "finally" seems out of place: did they deliberately delay acting on their orders, or were they unprepared for them? A 24 hour period between receiving orders to go to war and getting forces into position would be considered pretty good by most modern naval forces.
I reworded this. Replaced "finally responded to" with "carried out".
"On 3 November British warships bombarded outer forts in the Dardanelles. Two days later they extended their declaration of war " - this wording is a bit unclear: the fleet didn't declare war, the British Government did.
I reworded this as well. Replaced "they" with "Britain".
It's a bit odd for British PM Lloyd George to be referred to as merely a "critic"
I've revised this. It now reads, more true to the source: "Due to these attacks, there was a common impression in Britain that Churchill had brought the Ottomans into the war.
Prime MinisterLloyd George held this belief for several years to come."
I've fixed some of this, when I have more time I can do more cleanup
Concerning the background, I agree and I will get around to expanding this stuff. The
Pursuit of Goeben and Breslau should be elaborated upon, as well as things like
Ottoman–German alliance, popular Ottoman opinion of the Entente and Central Powers, the British seizure of Ottoman battleships, foreign military assistance to the Empire, etc. I might make a "Prelude" for all the stuff in October, and put the rest in the "Background" section.
As for the references, I intend on switching styles, so there will be a full list of "References" and a "Citations" section with shorthand versions (author's name and page). I think that will make things more clear.
@
Nick-D: My own apologies as well for not dealing with this sooner. I've gone back and added what I could. Let me know if there's anything else that can be done. --
Indy beetle (
talk)
19:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)reply
Look for paragraphs which don't end with a reference (eg, "Ambassador Wagenheim signed the treaty the next day, creating the secret Ottoman–German alliance", "Three destroyers were detailed for Odessa. On the way, one of these destroyers experienced engine trouble and was forced to turn back", and two or three others).
Nick-D (
talk)
01:44, 27 August 2016 (UTC)reply
I think I've gotten everything. Fair to let you know that in some cases I simply moved the cite to the end of the paragraph. This was when that one citation covered everything in the paragraph, so I felt no need to put two of the same citations in adjacent sentences. --
Indy beetle (
talk)
04:44, 27 August 2016 (UTC)reply
That works for me - I'm pleased to now pass the article. Nice work with this article, and I'd encourage you to nominate it for a Military History Wikiproject
A-Class review down the track.
Nick-D (
talk)
07:31, 27 August 2016 (UTC)reply
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a
WikiProject dedicated to coverage of
Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
project page, or contribute to the
project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please
join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles
I've always wanted to learn more about this operation, so am pleased to review this article. I'll post comments later this weekend.
Nick-D (
talk)
04:09, 23 July 2016 (UTC)reply
Comments
"was an Ottoman naval sortie against Russian ports" - the key German role should be acknowledged upfront, as the main warships involved were really only nominally Ottoman
The first and third paras in the Background section need references, and some other parts of the article aren't referenced at present
The first para of the background section also covers too much ground too briefly, and should be expanded (eg, when did Germany and Turkey establish an alliance, and what were the German ships doing in the area)
"and that he planned on securing the support of Djemal Pasha" - the support for what?
" who, along with his ship, had been transferred to the Ottoman Navy" - this should be covered in more detail
Did Souchon seek to inflict any significant damage on the Russian ports, or did he only want to start a war and get out of the area?
"Souchon radioed Istanbul" - presumably he radioed a headquarters located in the city, and not the city itself
"British forces in the Mediterranean finally responded" - "finally" seems out of place: did they deliberately delay acting on their orders, or were they unprepared for them? A 24 hour period between receiving orders to go to war and getting forces into position would be considered pretty good by most modern naval forces.
"On 3 November British warships bombarded outer forts in the Dardanelles. Two days later they extended their declaration of war " - this wording is a bit unclear: the fleet didn't declare war, the British Government did.
It's a bit odd for British PM Lloyd George to be referred to as merely a "critic"
Please provide page numbers for the Kieser, Halpern and Kent references
Please give specific page references for Fromkin - it's referenced too many times for a five page range to be suitable
Please provide bibliographic details for the Tucker reference
Hi
Nick-D. Thank you for the thorough and helpful review. Unfortunately, I'm heading out of town for a week myself, so my ability to revise the article as you've suggested is, for the time being, limited. Since I'm leaving today, I must be brief in my response. I'll go over what I can:
"was an Ottoman naval sortie against Russian ports" - the key German role should be acknowledged upfront, as the main warships involved were really only nominally Ottoman
I've put in the first sentence that it was "supported by Germany". I did say already in the first paragraph that the attack was orchestrated by the German Admiral Wilhelm Souchon and the German Foreign Ministry (in addition to Enver Pasha). If you have a more direct suggestion on how to word this than I will gladly listen.
"and that he planned on securing the support of Djemal Pasha" - the support for what?
It was through Djemal Pasha, the Minister of the Navy, that Enver Pasha was able to influence the fleet. His cooperation was necessary so Enver and Souchon could order the raid. (If necessary, I can add sourced info to the article that discusses how Djemal facilitated Enver's work).
I've added a bit more information on Djemal's role. There isn't really much to go off of, but he did stop actively opposing Souchon's actions (like he did previously), and it was both he and Enver that gave Souchon attack orders.
Did Souchon seek to inflict any significant damage on the Russian ports, or did he only want to start a war and get out of the area?
No sources have really made this clear to me, but based off of the quotes of his I've seen, I would assume the latter.
"Souchon radioed Istanbul" - presumably he radioed a headquarters located in the city, and not the city itself
I would agree, but no source directly states that. It's also possible he sent a message directly addressed for Djemal, Enver, or even the Porte. To be completely transparent, I believe the source where I found this info said verbatim that he "sent a message to Istanbul" while still far out at sea. So I'm assuming that he used a
wireless telegraph.
Lots of style guides recommend against referring to localities where specific institutions are meant. How about changing this to "Souchon dispatched a radio signal...". The context for this clear from the remainder of the sentence.
Nick-D (
talk)
07:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)reply
The only sources I've found that talk about this just say that he "radioed/sent wire" to "Istanbul/Constantinople." Nothing so far has given me a clear indication on where exactly this message ended up.
"British forces in the Mediterranean finally responded" - "finally" seems out of place: did they deliberately delay acting on their orders, or were they unprepared for them? A 24 hour period between receiving orders to go to war and getting forces into position would be considered pretty good by most modern naval forces.
I reworded this. Replaced "finally responded to" with "carried out".
"On 3 November British warships bombarded outer forts in the Dardanelles. Two days later they extended their declaration of war " - this wording is a bit unclear: the fleet didn't declare war, the British Government did.
I reworded this as well. Replaced "they" with "Britain".
It's a bit odd for British PM Lloyd George to be referred to as merely a "critic"
I've revised this. It now reads, more true to the source: "Due to these attacks, there was a common impression in Britain that Churchill had brought the Ottomans into the war.
Prime MinisterLloyd George held this belief for several years to come."
I've fixed some of this, when I have more time I can do more cleanup
Concerning the background, I agree and I will get around to expanding this stuff. The
Pursuit of Goeben and Breslau should be elaborated upon, as well as things like
Ottoman–German alliance, popular Ottoman opinion of the Entente and Central Powers, the British seizure of Ottoman battleships, foreign military assistance to the Empire, etc. I might make a "Prelude" for all the stuff in October, and put the rest in the "Background" section.
As for the references, I intend on switching styles, so there will be a full list of "References" and a "Citations" section with shorthand versions (author's name and page). I think that will make things more clear.
@
Nick-D: My own apologies as well for not dealing with this sooner. I've gone back and added what I could. Let me know if there's anything else that can be done. --
Indy beetle (
talk)
19:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)reply
Look for paragraphs which don't end with a reference (eg, "Ambassador Wagenheim signed the treaty the next day, creating the secret Ottoman–German alliance", "Three destroyers were detailed for Odessa. On the way, one of these destroyers experienced engine trouble and was forced to turn back", and two or three others).
Nick-D (
talk)
01:44, 27 August 2016 (UTC)reply
I think I've gotten everything. Fair to let you know that in some cases I simply moved the cite to the end of the paragraph. This was when that one citation covered everything in the paragraph, so I felt no need to put two of the same citations in adjacent sentences. --
Indy beetle (
talk)
04:44, 27 August 2016 (UTC)reply
That works for me - I'm pleased to now pass the article. Nice work with this article, and I'd encourage you to nominate it for a Military History Wikiproject
A-Class review down the track.
Nick-D (
talk)
07:31, 27 August 2016 (UTC)reply
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.