A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 7, 2010, February 7, 2011, and February 7, 2013. |
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February 2009, March 2009. |
A few things regarding the naming of this event and the title of the article:
1.The shortcomings of the "February 2009 Victorian bushfires" title are becoming apparent as several of the fires that started on the 7th of Feb are still burning and we are now in March, making the current title incorrect.
2. The prevalence of the term "Black Saturday" has been continuously gaining prominence in common usage, non-commercial media sources have also begun using the term and I, as one of many residents in Melbourne, have heard the term used on a few occasions in day-to-day conversation.
So it appears that we have two leading possibilities for the naming of this event and the subsequent title of the article: "Black Saturday bushfires" and "2009 Victorian bushfires". Given the increased prevelence of the former title and understanding the fact that we have a dedicated article for bushfires in the 2008-09 season, I am in support of the title "Black Saturday bushfires" Nick carson ( talk) 08:28, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Oppose rename. I haven't heard "Black Saturday" being used for the bushfires that commonly, while the term is used for other calamities ( List of Black Saturdays) Kransky ( talk) 12:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the mainstream media have been calling it "Black Saturday" now for long enough for it to be appropriate for use in the article title. But it doesn't need to be edit warred over. - Mark 06:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Naming the article "Black Saturday" would be clearly misleading because the article covers weeks and weeks of developments, not just a single day. The fact that the name is in dispute is irrelevent because the article is not only about the first Saturday anyway. I do agree that the term is far from universal, and does appear to be being pushed by the Herald Sun more so than the wider community. 144.140.22.4 ( talk) 05:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
It wouldn't be misleading, doubly not clearly. The scope of the article has been stated several times above (those fires that began in early feb as a max definition) as we have a dedicated 2008-09 Australian bushfire season article for all other fires. Black Saturday warrants a dedicated article as it was one of, if not the worst, bushfire conditions which led to a firestorm(s) that claimed many lives, burnt around half a million hectares of land and destroyed thousnads of buildings. The reason why it encompasses 3 to 4 weeks worth of chronology is because thats is the ammount of time many of these fires have continued ot burn. The name "Black Saturday" was initially pushed far too early in my opinion by all sorts of entities in the commercial media, not just the Herald Sun, but also Austereo Network and Channels 7 and 10, to name a few. It has been almost a month and 'Black Saturday' has entered common useage not only in these hasty commercial media entities but in all types of aspects of society and the community. Nick carson ( talk) 06:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Support renaming to Black Saturday bushfires. References to the name "Black Saturday" have become quite prevalent in the last week or so in various media reports and the name was mentioned by the Prime Minister at the memorial service. Renaming the article will help to focus on the major events of that day and define the article scope, while of course allowing for mention of events leading up to that day and consequential events. Other significant bushfire events of February such as the Wilsons Promontory and Upwey fires can then be moved to/covered at 2008-09 Australian bushfire season. Melburnian ( talk) 07:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Comment As I am watching for consensus on this article being renamed I must note at this stage that there appear to be 4-5 in support and 4 in opposition. This is clearly not a consensus as of this time and date stamp.-- VS talk 20:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Support rename to Black Saturday Bushfires or similar. All media seems to be using it now. I am strongly in support of any move to make it Feb-7-specific, so that unrelated, non-lethal grass fires can finally be moved out of the article. Peter Ballard ( talk) 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
[OD] Response Good question Nick and one that often comes up, in various forms, from various sides of any consensus forming discussion. In a nutshell if you have to repeat yourself too often without swaying results, then its a pretty clear reflection that views haven't swayed to one or the other side of the consensus. From that perspective it would seem to me when I read all of the returns that the comment from Stephen Bain above which states When the Royal Commission's interim report is out the picture with respect to terminology will be much clearer; may offer the most logical solution - because at that point of time an obviously verifiable conclusion can be referenced.'-- VS talk 22:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I support the renaming of the article to "Black Saturday bushfires", due to widespread useage of this name, and I am strongly in support of any move to make the article 7 February specific. ( Pwhytcross ( talk) 02:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC))
Update - So, as of May 14, we have 6 in support (several strongly) and 2 in opposition. Nick carson ( talk) 11:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
IMO, fighting over a name misses the point. More important is the article scope. Sure, a well-chosen name could be very helpful in focussing the article, but the name is not as important as article content and there are other ways. In this new section here, let's at least try to get consensus on the scope. my strong recommendation is to focus on the 7 Feb disaster. This of course includes responses, investigations, consequences, etc. What it doesn't include are in-depth discussions on any fire that happened in Feb with no impact on the 7 Feb disaster. -- Merbabu ( talk) 07:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Hello folks - in reference to discussion and attempts to move the article and talk pages I have just now put an indefinite hold on such action. Please come back to me once consensus has been established and I will unlock.-- VS talk 07:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
[OD]Given your interest in the name change, and the number of different opinions it would probably be best, for reasons of transperancy, that you don't actually form the conclusion yourself Nick. I also note that you will not need to come to me to ask permission as you put it, any other admin can consider the conclusion of the discussion on name changing and then unlock the page - for my part I was just offering my services for when that time comes.-- VS talk 21:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
The terms of reference for the Royal Commission have been released which include inquiring into and reporting on "The causes and circumstances of the bushfires which burned in various parts of Victoria in late January and in February 2009 ("2009 Bushfires")" [2] Melburnian ( talk) 23:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Hello Nick & Co.I just added external link on Royal Commission page.I don't think it's needed at end of this article.Okay?Thanks for all the work Ern Malleyscrub ( talk) 02:21, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
In making better quality maps it became obvious that the Kinglake and Marysville areas should be split. The fires that affected both areas had separate origins and only merged after a (comparitively small) section from the Kinglake area burnt into the Marysville area. The only reason the two fire areas were merged was for CFA purposes in coordinating the control effort during the fires, this is why we had organised them here on WP in the "Kilmore-Murrindindi Complex" (sometimes also known as the 'Kinglake Complex'). This definition is no longer useful as the two areas were affected by two separate fires. Nick carson ( talk) 05:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
For unresolved discussions from February. Nick carson ( talk) 07:02, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The death toll has been revised down to 173. The maps will be updated sometime today. Nick carson ( talk) 05:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
A discrepancy in the numbers in the article remains, perhaps needs editing to explain: in General Statistics section it says 5 later died in hospital, but there is no "in hospital" category in the Location of Deaths section, which also adds up to the same total. There is a 115.128.0.86 ( talk) 13:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
The article is so long, and contains so many images, that the download time is excessive. Potential readers are likely to click off rather than wait for the article to load. Trimming or splitting is necessary. WWGB ( talk) 05:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I have added info on this and a reference, but it is not in perfect citation format. -- Biatch ( talk) 02:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Following a recent conference with a Melbourne barrister, I am beginning to add verifiable facts that might indicate possible conductor clashing to an objective (=retired) electric power engineer. -- PleaseExplayne ( talk) 16:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I have made the move to the new name following prolonged discussed at talk page and after the consensus seems to have moved to this name. I am going to try the rename and see if if brings further concerns. People further concerned with the name change should indicate their concerns below - nothing is set in concrete folks so this is just a "suck it and see" attempt to meet the majority desire. I hope most agree.-- VS talk 11:05, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I've reduced the article size from 143 kilobytes to 122 kilobytes. I moved the responses section into a new article Responses to the Black Saturday bushfires and we may consider moving the 'Investigations' and perhaps 'Timeline' sections to their own articles, but at least in the short term we've got it down to almost acceptable size. I also went through the timeline section, sorted out a few inconsistencies and added a few key events. Nick carson ( talk) 06:51, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I've heard a bunch of news about this new 6-tier system, but I havn't got the time to research it, learn all about it and add it here or at the "Responses..." article. So if others are willing to, that'd be much appreciated. Nick carson ( talk) 10:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
There was an article in the Adelaide Review recently about the building standards for defending homes at each level. Ref:
Maxwell, Tom (December 2009). "Catastrophe in waiting". Adelaide Review. No. 358. p. 46. Retrieved 2010-02-23.
I'll leave it up to you to include the info, I am collecting refs for an article on the long-term responses.
Ottre 07:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I think we need to be careful about what the real facts are in this story. The bushfires have created an emotionally loaded, politically charged environment, with a lot of biased people out there. News stories seem to evolve daily. I'll accept the version that appears in the Royal Commission's report. Realistically, would these bombers be able to easily load up with the required amounts of water in Victoria during a drought? They can't hover over a lake or dam like a helicopter. HiLo48 ( talk) 11:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
It's now a year after the event, so some of the natural controversy has faided,overall article seems well put together if complex.The ongoing environmental effects are more easily assessed, such as:Surrounding areas creeks and rivers that feed into downstream fisheries experience raise in water temperature (due to lose of canopy)enough to kill the new fish stocks six months later.All fish stocks at the time of the fires died and had to be buried.This may seem irrelevant to some, but the environment isn't a collection of map grids.Perhaps the anniversary will inspire those hard working wiki editors/ interested parties, to consolidate the existing work.Thanks to all for your efforts, especially Nick Carson.Perhaps a seperate section or new article dealing with the enormous loss of life and peoples adjustment is required?The Royal Commission deserves its own article Ern Malleyscrub ( talk) 07:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I've just read this article for the first time and I can't believe the reasons given for the magnitude of the fires. Most people I've seen interviewed, or that I have spoken to personally about their experiences, have blamed the lack of land clearing, owing to strict environmental laws, as the reason as to why these fires were worse than any others in history. Obviously the weather conditions at the time were the leading cause of the fire, but people being unable to clear lands that they have historically been allowed to clear, is the reason so many died. To leave this reason out, but to claim 'climate change'(whatever that means) was a factor, is ludicrous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.220.117.187 ( talk) 02:57, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Trying to lay most of the blame on global warming for these bush fires is a insult to the dead. The number one reason for why these fires were so devastating was that Green groups would not allow back-burning. Back-burning reduces fuel buildup and decreases the likelihood of serious hotter fires. As usual the Greens are spreading their lies and disinformation all over the web. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.76.131.131 ( talk) 02:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
While some of the initial inquiries hinted that long-term temperature trends may have been a factor in the increased probability of the fires occurring, the quoted references do not cite either anthropogenic or natural climate change as a cause of the fires. It is misleading, and possibly politically motivated, to suggest or imply that it is. As to its validity, despite the poor choice of references, this hypothesis has been explored in the academic literature and been largely discarded. For example, see: Crompton, McAneney, Chen, Pielke and Haynes (2010), Crompton, McAneney, Chen, Pielke and Haynes (2011), Neumayer and Barthel (2011). Even the IPCC, on page 268 of the 2012 report entitled <a href=" http://www.ipcc-wg2.gov/SREX/images/uploads/SREX-All_FINAL.pdf">Managing the Risks of Extreme Events and Disasters to Advance Climate Change Adaptation</a> states "There is medium evidence and high agreement that long-term trends in normalized losses [that is, adjusted for exposure and wealth of the increasing populations] have not been attributed to natural or anthropogenic climate change". Both the claim, and its references should be removed.
References: Crompton, R. P., K. J. McAneney, K. Chen, R. A. Pielke Jr., and K. Haynes, 2010. Influence of Location, Population and Climate on Building Damage and Fatalities due to Australian Bushfire: 1925-2009. Weather, Climate, and Society, Vol. 2, pp. 300-310, DOI: 10.1175/2010WCAS1063.1. Crompton, R.P., K.J. McAneney, K. Chen, R.A. Pielke, Jr., and K. Haynes, 2011. Reply to the Nicholls (2011) comment on Crompton et al. (2010), “Influence of location, population, and climate on building damage and fatalities due to Australian bushfire: 1925–2009”. Weather, Climate, and Society, Vol. 3, Issue 1, pp. 63-66, DOI: 10.1175/WCAS-D-11-00002 Neumayer, E. and F. Barthel, 2011: Normalizing Economic Loss from Natural Disasters: A Global Analysis. Global Environmental Change, Vol 22, Issue 1, pp. 13-24. DOI: 10.1016/j.gloenvcha.2010.10.004
130.102.158.16 ( talk) 01:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
OK, so I've now pretty much completed my major rework of the article (mostly done in Feb, but have been delaying for a while while I got around to adding in the updated Building codes stuff). Sure, there's still a lot of improvements that could be made, but I think it's a bit more coherent than it was.
Now the one thing I couldn't bring myself to work on was the Lawsuits section. It's not that big, but most of the stuff in there is pretty outdated, much of it dating to about a week after the fires. If anyone else wants to work on that and update the current progress, then please do. (FWIW I read recently that some of the earlier class actions, e.g., for the 2003 fires, have been let slide without actually taking them to court, but I don't know the current state of these ones).
There are also some dead links still drifting around. I found replacements for a number, or deleted them if they were unnecessary (e.g., duplicating what another ref already said), but there's some I couldn't find a replacement for, so if anyone wants to check up on that ... -- jjron ( talk) 15:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh, while on refs, one thing I definitely learnt while going through this article is that refs from The Age and the ABC are far more reliable than those from News Ltd (Herald Sun, Australian, etc) and other web news sources such as Yahoo news, regional newspapers, etc. By reliable, I'm not just saying they're more accurate or whatever, but that they're far less likely to become dead links. Only a couple of years after the fires I was surprised by how many of the News ones had become dead links, while as far as I can remember all the Age and ABC ones were still there. Just something to bear in mind if people are contributing to these articles in the future - as much as possible source refs from The Age and ABC. -- jjron ( talk) 15:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.76.131.131 ( talk) 02:46, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Marking this this article question which was posted in the article by User_talk:NathanTCollier. Not sure how it can be addressed, though. Dl2000 ( talk) 04:34, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I changed the sentence in the 'climate change' section. I do not believe that it changes the intended meaning. The sentence, as originally written, seem to be suggesting that global warming was a consequence of bushfires. I have split the sentence, and made explicit the converse. I do not think this will be controversial Jhunt29 ( talk) 06:15, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
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The table in this section is unsourced and looks both incomplete and like original research. I note there is a table at List of natural disasters by death toll#10 deadliest wildfires / bushfires that lists this as the ninth deadliest, not eighth. I'm going to remove the table for now and replace it with a link to the appropriate article. AtHomeIn神戸 ( talk) 00:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 7, 2010, February 7, 2011, and February 7, 2013. |
A news item involving Black Saturday bushfires was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 7 February 2009. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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|
February 2009, March 2009. |
A few things regarding the naming of this event and the title of the article:
1.The shortcomings of the "February 2009 Victorian bushfires" title are becoming apparent as several of the fires that started on the 7th of Feb are still burning and we are now in March, making the current title incorrect.
2. The prevalence of the term "Black Saturday" has been continuously gaining prominence in common usage, non-commercial media sources have also begun using the term and I, as one of many residents in Melbourne, have heard the term used on a few occasions in day-to-day conversation.
So it appears that we have two leading possibilities for the naming of this event and the subsequent title of the article: "Black Saturday bushfires" and "2009 Victorian bushfires". Given the increased prevelence of the former title and understanding the fact that we have a dedicated article for bushfires in the 2008-09 season, I am in support of the title "Black Saturday bushfires" Nick carson ( talk) 08:28, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Oppose rename. I haven't heard "Black Saturday" being used for the bushfires that commonly, while the term is used for other calamities ( List of Black Saturdays) Kransky ( talk) 12:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the mainstream media have been calling it "Black Saturday" now for long enough for it to be appropriate for use in the article title. But it doesn't need to be edit warred over. - Mark 06:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Naming the article "Black Saturday" would be clearly misleading because the article covers weeks and weeks of developments, not just a single day. The fact that the name is in dispute is irrelevent because the article is not only about the first Saturday anyway. I do agree that the term is far from universal, and does appear to be being pushed by the Herald Sun more so than the wider community. 144.140.22.4 ( talk) 05:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
It wouldn't be misleading, doubly not clearly. The scope of the article has been stated several times above (those fires that began in early feb as a max definition) as we have a dedicated 2008-09 Australian bushfire season article for all other fires. Black Saturday warrants a dedicated article as it was one of, if not the worst, bushfire conditions which led to a firestorm(s) that claimed many lives, burnt around half a million hectares of land and destroyed thousnads of buildings. The reason why it encompasses 3 to 4 weeks worth of chronology is because thats is the ammount of time many of these fires have continued ot burn. The name "Black Saturday" was initially pushed far too early in my opinion by all sorts of entities in the commercial media, not just the Herald Sun, but also Austereo Network and Channels 7 and 10, to name a few. It has been almost a month and 'Black Saturday' has entered common useage not only in these hasty commercial media entities but in all types of aspects of society and the community. Nick carson ( talk) 06:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Support renaming to Black Saturday bushfires. References to the name "Black Saturday" have become quite prevalent in the last week or so in various media reports and the name was mentioned by the Prime Minister at the memorial service. Renaming the article will help to focus on the major events of that day and define the article scope, while of course allowing for mention of events leading up to that day and consequential events. Other significant bushfire events of February such as the Wilsons Promontory and Upwey fires can then be moved to/covered at 2008-09 Australian bushfire season. Melburnian ( talk) 07:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Comment As I am watching for consensus on this article being renamed I must note at this stage that there appear to be 4-5 in support and 4 in opposition. This is clearly not a consensus as of this time and date stamp.-- VS talk 20:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Support rename to Black Saturday Bushfires or similar. All media seems to be using it now. I am strongly in support of any move to make it Feb-7-specific, so that unrelated, non-lethal grass fires can finally be moved out of the article. Peter Ballard ( talk) 00:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
[OD] Response Good question Nick and one that often comes up, in various forms, from various sides of any consensus forming discussion. In a nutshell if you have to repeat yourself too often without swaying results, then its a pretty clear reflection that views haven't swayed to one or the other side of the consensus. From that perspective it would seem to me when I read all of the returns that the comment from Stephen Bain above which states When the Royal Commission's interim report is out the picture with respect to terminology will be much clearer; may offer the most logical solution - because at that point of time an obviously verifiable conclusion can be referenced.'-- VS talk 22:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I support the renaming of the article to "Black Saturday bushfires", due to widespread useage of this name, and I am strongly in support of any move to make the article 7 February specific. ( Pwhytcross ( talk) 02:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC))
Update - So, as of May 14, we have 6 in support (several strongly) and 2 in opposition. Nick carson ( talk) 11:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
IMO, fighting over a name misses the point. More important is the article scope. Sure, a well-chosen name could be very helpful in focussing the article, but the name is not as important as article content and there are other ways. In this new section here, let's at least try to get consensus on the scope. my strong recommendation is to focus on the 7 Feb disaster. This of course includes responses, investigations, consequences, etc. What it doesn't include are in-depth discussions on any fire that happened in Feb with no impact on the 7 Feb disaster. -- Merbabu ( talk) 07:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Hello folks - in reference to discussion and attempts to move the article and talk pages I have just now put an indefinite hold on such action. Please come back to me once consensus has been established and I will unlock.-- VS talk 07:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
[OD]Given your interest in the name change, and the number of different opinions it would probably be best, for reasons of transperancy, that you don't actually form the conclusion yourself Nick. I also note that you will not need to come to me to ask permission as you put it, any other admin can consider the conclusion of the discussion on name changing and then unlock the page - for my part I was just offering my services for when that time comes.-- VS talk 21:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
The terms of reference for the Royal Commission have been released which include inquiring into and reporting on "The causes and circumstances of the bushfires which burned in various parts of Victoria in late January and in February 2009 ("2009 Bushfires")" [2] Melburnian ( talk) 23:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Hello Nick & Co.I just added external link on Royal Commission page.I don't think it's needed at end of this article.Okay?Thanks for all the work Ern Malleyscrub ( talk) 02:21, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
In making better quality maps it became obvious that the Kinglake and Marysville areas should be split. The fires that affected both areas had separate origins and only merged after a (comparitively small) section from the Kinglake area burnt into the Marysville area. The only reason the two fire areas were merged was for CFA purposes in coordinating the control effort during the fires, this is why we had organised them here on WP in the "Kilmore-Murrindindi Complex" (sometimes also known as the 'Kinglake Complex'). This definition is no longer useful as the two areas were affected by two separate fires. Nick carson ( talk) 05:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
For unresolved discussions from February. Nick carson ( talk) 07:02, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The death toll has been revised down to 173. The maps will be updated sometime today. Nick carson ( talk) 05:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
A discrepancy in the numbers in the article remains, perhaps needs editing to explain: in General Statistics section it says 5 later died in hospital, but there is no "in hospital" category in the Location of Deaths section, which also adds up to the same total. There is a 115.128.0.86 ( talk) 13:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
The article is so long, and contains so many images, that the download time is excessive. Potential readers are likely to click off rather than wait for the article to load. Trimming or splitting is necessary. WWGB ( talk) 05:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I have added info on this and a reference, but it is not in perfect citation format. -- Biatch ( talk) 02:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Following a recent conference with a Melbourne barrister, I am beginning to add verifiable facts that might indicate possible conductor clashing to an objective (=retired) electric power engineer. -- PleaseExplayne ( talk) 16:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I have made the move to the new name following prolonged discussed at talk page and after the consensus seems to have moved to this name. I am going to try the rename and see if if brings further concerns. People further concerned with the name change should indicate their concerns below - nothing is set in concrete folks so this is just a "suck it and see" attempt to meet the majority desire. I hope most agree.-- VS talk 11:05, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I've reduced the article size from 143 kilobytes to 122 kilobytes. I moved the responses section into a new article Responses to the Black Saturday bushfires and we may consider moving the 'Investigations' and perhaps 'Timeline' sections to their own articles, but at least in the short term we've got it down to almost acceptable size. I also went through the timeline section, sorted out a few inconsistencies and added a few key events. Nick carson ( talk) 06:51, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I've heard a bunch of news about this new 6-tier system, but I havn't got the time to research it, learn all about it and add it here or at the "Responses..." article. So if others are willing to, that'd be much appreciated. Nick carson ( talk) 10:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
There was an article in the Adelaide Review recently about the building standards for defending homes at each level. Ref:
Maxwell, Tom (December 2009). "Catastrophe in waiting". Adelaide Review. No. 358. p. 46. Retrieved 2010-02-23.
I'll leave it up to you to include the info, I am collecting refs for an article on the long-term responses.
Ottre 07:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I think we need to be careful about what the real facts are in this story. The bushfires have created an emotionally loaded, politically charged environment, with a lot of biased people out there. News stories seem to evolve daily. I'll accept the version that appears in the Royal Commission's report. Realistically, would these bombers be able to easily load up with the required amounts of water in Victoria during a drought? They can't hover over a lake or dam like a helicopter. HiLo48 ( talk) 11:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
It's now a year after the event, so some of the natural controversy has faided,overall article seems well put together if complex.The ongoing environmental effects are more easily assessed, such as:Surrounding areas creeks and rivers that feed into downstream fisheries experience raise in water temperature (due to lose of canopy)enough to kill the new fish stocks six months later.All fish stocks at the time of the fires died and had to be buried.This may seem irrelevant to some, but the environment isn't a collection of map grids.Perhaps the anniversary will inspire those hard working wiki editors/ interested parties, to consolidate the existing work.Thanks to all for your efforts, especially Nick Carson.Perhaps a seperate section or new article dealing with the enormous loss of life and peoples adjustment is required?The Royal Commission deserves its own article Ern Malleyscrub ( talk) 07:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I've just read this article for the first time and I can't believe the reasons given for the magnitude of the fires. Most people I've seen interviewed, or that I have spoken to personally about their experiences, have blamed the lack of land clearing, owing to strict environmental laws, as the reason as to why these fires were worse than any others in history. Obviously the weather conditions at the time were the leading cause of the fire, but people being unable to clear lands that they have historically been allowed to clear, is the reason so many died. To leave this reason out, but to claim 'climate change'(whatever that means) was a factor, is ludicrous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.220.117.187 ( talk) 02:57, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Trying to lay most of the blame on global warming for these bush fires is a insult to the dead. The number one reason for why these fires were so devastating was that Green groups would not allow back-burning. Back-burning reduces fuel buildup and decreases the likelihood of serious hotter fires. As usual the Greens are spreading their lies and disinformation all over the web. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.76.131.131 ( talk) 02:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
While some of the initial inquiries hinted that long-term temperature trends may have been a factor in the increased probability of the fires occurring, the quoted references do not cite either anthropogenic or natural climate change as a cause of the fires. It is misleading, and possibly politically motivated, to suggest or imply that it is. As to its validity, despite the poor choice of references, this hypothesis has been explored in the academic literature and been largely discarded. For example, see: Crompton, McAneney, Chen, Pielke and Haynes (2010), Crompton, McAneney, Chen, Pielke and Haynes (2011), Neumayer and Barthel (2011). Even the IPCC, on page 268 of the 2012 report entitled <a href=" http://www.ipcc-wg2.gov/SREX/images/uploads/SREX-All_FINAL.pdf">Managing the Risks of Extreme Events and Disasters to Advance Climate Change Adaptation</a> states "There is medium evidence and high agreement that long-term trends in normalized losses [that is, adjusted for exposure and wealth of the increasing populations] have not been attributed to natural or anthropogenic climate change". Both the claim, and its references should be removed.
References: Crompton, R. P., K. J. McAneney, K. Chen, R. A. Pielke Jr., and K. Haynes, 2010. Influence of Location, Population and Climate on Building Damage and Fatalities due to Australian Bushfire: 1925-2009. Weather, Climate, and Society, Vol. 2, pp. 300-310, DOI: 10.1175/2010WCAS1063.1. Crompton, R.P., K.J. McAneney, K. Chen, R.A. Pielke, Jr., and K. Haynes, 2011. Reply to the Nicholls (2011) comment on Crompton et al. (2010), “Influence of location, population, and climate on building damage and fatalities due to Australian bushfire: 1925–2009”. Weather, Climate, and Society, Vol. 3, Issue 1, pp. 63-66, DOI: 10.1175/WCAS-D-11-00002 Neumayer, E. and F. Barthel, 2011: Normalizing Economic Loss from Natural Disasters: A Global Analysis. Global Environmental Change, Vol 22, Issue 1, pp. 13-24. DOI: 10.1016/j.gloenvcha.2010.10.004
130.102.158.16 ( talk) 01:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
OK, so I've now pretty much completed my major rework of the article (mostly done in Feb, but have been delaying for a while while I got around to adding in the updated Building codes stuff). Sure, there's still a lot of improvements that could be made, but I think it's a bit more coherent than it was.
Now the one thing I couldn't bring myself to work on was the Lawsuits section. It's not that big, but most of the stuff in there is pretty outdated, much of it dating to about a week after the fires. If anyone else wants to work on that and update the current progress, then please do. (FWIW I read recently that some of the earlier class actions, e.g., for the 2003 fires, have been let slide without actually taking them to court, but I don't know the current state of these ones).
There are also some dead links still drifting around. I found replacements for a number, or deleted them if they were unnecessary (e.g., duplicating what another ref already said), but there's some I couldn't find a replacement for, so if anyone wants to check up on that ... -- jjron ( talk) 15:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh, while on refs, one thing I definitely learnt while going through this article is that refs from The Age and the ABC are far more reliable than those from News Ltd (Herald Sun, Australian, etc) and other web news sources such as Yahoo news, regional newspapers, etc. By reliable, I'm not just saying they're more accurate or whatever, but that they're far less likely to become dead links. Only a couple of years after the fires I was surprised by how many of the News ones had become dead links, while as far as I can remember all the Age and ABC ones were still there. Just something to bear in mind if people are contributing to these articles in the future - as much as possible source refs from The Age and ABC. -- jjron ( talk) 15:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.76.131.131 ( talk) 02:46, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Marking this this article question which was posted in the article by User_talk:NathanTCollier. Not sure how it can be addressed, though. Dl2000 ( talk) 04:34, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I changed the sentence in the 'climate change' section. I do not believe that it changes the intended meaning. The sentence, as originally written, seem to be suggesting that global warming was a consequence of bushfires. I have split the sentence, and made explicit the converse. I do not think this will be controversial Jhunt29 ( talk) 06:15, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
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The table in this section is unsourced and looks both incomplete and like original research. I note there is a table at List of natural disasters by death toll#10 deadliest wildfires / bushfires that lists this as the ninth deadliest, not eighth. I'm going to remove the table for now and replace it with a link to the appropriate article. AtHomeIn神戸 ( talk) 00:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
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