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The recording order seems to differ under the headings Recording and Recording Dates. 2001:18E8:2:11B7:25BE:8286:7814:C59A ( talk) 15:31, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure "Boplicity" is by Gil Evans and Miles Davis -- 68.5.86.167 13:06, 2005 July 8 (UTC)
The "Complete Birth of the Cool" CD includes detailed notes by Pete Welding about the origins and history of the nonet, which I've taken most of tonight's additions from. It also includes a shorter piece by Gerry Mulligan from 1971 in which he says Miles was the bandleader, one by Mike Zwerin (who played in the Royal Roost band but not on the studio recordings), and one by Phil Schaap about the radio broadcasts. It seems anal to me to insist that BOTC means the eleven tracks on the original 12" LP, the CD insert says that "Darn That Dream" has been included on the album for more than thirty years. (On getting out the RVG reissue, the Welding and Mulligan pieces are used as notes for that too, but not the Zwerin or Schaap). -- ajn ( talk) 22:45, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Why under 1957 albums? Should be 1950, no?
Cleo Henry is a false name given due to contractual copyright problems; it is Davis and Evans. Charlie Parker used the false name of Charlie Chan because he was under contract from one recording company and then had recorded for another. This is not uncommon during that time of the 40s and 50s.
Jcooper1 ( talk) 02:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Although the first complete compilation was released in 1957, this merely is a matter of changing formats. I would think anyone going to Wikipedia to understand the history of jazz would find it more useful to see this page where the lion's share of the material was first performed, recorded and released: in 1949 and 1950. It strikes me as more confusing than helpful to locate this album in 1957, which is really a matter of converting it to the new 12" format. It was a commercial consideration, and most people old enough to have a vague grasp of the history of recording formats understand this.
For example: If a batch of material was released in a booklet with two 45 rpm singles in it in 1978, and finally came out as a CD in 1985 with a few bonus tracks from 1978, to my mind it would still make sense to place this in a Wikipedia timeline in 1978. And this is typically the way it is done. In short, I respectfully disagree with GoP here, and agree with the unsigned OP (from 21:03, 7 March 2009) Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 19:12, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Birth of the Cool/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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Which of you musical geniuses can explain to us what the oxymoron "unison harmonies," as found at the end of the "Thornhill's influence" section, means?
2602:30A:C0A1:1530:D553:A951:D0A2:7C29 ( talk) 08:11, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
In the case of materials recorded AND RELEASED in the pre-LP era, it makes more sense to place them in a chronology reflecting their actual time of first release. In 1949 and 1950, one would have bought a series of 78's to hear this material, and they would have filed them on their shelves together. To put this "release" in "1957" is revisionist history. The material was recorded and released, for the most part, by 1950. That's when it had its historical impact, and that's where it belongs in Miles Davis' history. The 1957 re-release was merely an attempt to keep up with format changes, with a few "bonus tracks" added, as is done even today with re-releases. How can we move forward with this? My attempt at fixing this yesterday was reversed. Looking up this talk page, clearly I'm not the first who has felt this way about the page. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 19:19, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
In fact, the material was conceived as a whole in 1949, and performed as such at the time. I'm hearing you, and noticing the forced logic. Out of curiosity, have you ever held a 78 rpm record or 10" LP in your hand? I'm asking this for the sake of future discussion. You seem to find something really esoteric that i find commonplace, in all our debates. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 07:03, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
In fact, the material was conceived as a whole in 1949, and performed as such at the time. I'm hearing you, and noticing the forced logic. Out of curiosity, have you ever held a 78 rpm record or 10" LP in your hand? I'm asking this for the sake of future discussion. You seem to find something really esoteric that i find commonplace, in all our debates. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 07:04, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
8 of these recordings were released by 1950. Should I just make a separate sessions page for them, as i've done for other classic 78rpm-era sessions when encountering this curious lack of understanding of how 78s were consumed? so be it. I'll see you there, maybe. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 07:17, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Cambial Yellowing:, the proper thing to do now is continue this discussion here, as I cautioned you at your talk page and the recent edit summary. For record's sake, and any other interested parties, I will report my comments here:
When citing sources like these. They may just mean that those albums are commercially available at the time of the magazine issue's publication, and it does not negate the possibility they'd been released the month before. Especially if, as you cited, another magazine had confirmed just as much. Anyway, I've replaced it with a better source for February 1957.
WP:SYNTH says "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source." Which of the sources you cited concludes it was released in "either February or March of 1957"?
You used two sources to cite one idea, which is what I quoted. You used "or" to combine those dates into that idea; a conjuction doesn't separate words or ideas but combines them. Your entry into the released field is a synthesis.
Making a footnote of a minority claim (and potential error) is fine, but some quick research into Google Books' catalogue of online-available publications seems to support February 1957 as the majority claim. And I cited one of those sources. I would not object to an adjascent footnote being made to encapsulate whatever few sources there might be that say March... Piotr Jr. ( talk) 22:55, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Pinging some fellow contributors from the article's history: @ Graham87:, @ Dhoffryn:, @ Philip Cross:, @ Sojambi Pinola:. For the record, the content in dispute is this either/or release date(s) attributed to two contemporaneous trade magazine albums ads. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 22:58, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
[Copied from User talk] : Cambial Yellowing Cambial — foliar❧ 23:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Hey. I don't know if you've been creating these speculative synthesized dates elsewhere, but be careful when citing sources like these. They may just mean that those albums are commercially available at the time of the magazine issue's publication, and it does not negate the possibility they'd been released the month before. Especially if, as you cited, another magazine had confirmed just as much. Anyway, I've replaced it with a better source for February 1957. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 21:20, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Piotr Jr.: Refrain from canvassing your personal selection of editors. A simple notification here and or noticeboards if it's really that important to you will suffice. "Research" consisting of googling what you want to be the answer is not persuasive. There were three RS, one published by an academic press and two immediately contemporary to the event. They disagree on the precise month, so both were given and the sources cited. Deleting all three sources because... well you've made no attempt to justify it so I have no idea why – is not appropriate. Cambial — foliar❧ 23:17, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
: I think I justified myself to warrant a discussion and undo your original edit. And I think I pinged editors without any bias, but maybe you can enlighten me about that too ...
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 23:21, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
All right. Since I haven't gotten much response from the second party to this content dispute, particularly some key points, and instead gotten accusations of canvassing, I'm inviting others here in a completely unselective manner, although said party is still welcome to find further verification for his or hers (or their) position. Anyway! On with it. The second party's edit (which had remained, according to them for over a year here before I reverted it today) had made the release date in the infobox to claim "February or March 1957" and same in the lead, with multiple sources cited together, one claiming the March release and the other two or three claiming February. I reduced it to one source after seeing enough sources that made it in my mind a majority claim. After a bit back and forth, much off-topic, here we are.
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 02:08, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Sources that name February 1957 as the release date:
... Piotr Jr. ( talk) 23:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Cambial Yellowing:, Please stop it with these stupid insinuations, and find some sources that back up giving March any weight here. As far as the content is concerned, the March claim is overwhelmingly outnumbered here. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 23:49, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
:: Why would I withdraw the RfC if my point is to make this a battleground, as you say???
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 03:35, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Again with the pathetic insinuations 🙄 ...
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 04:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Go project and blame deflect onto whoever's lodged a complaint against you at ANI. See how far your pretenses get you there.
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 04:09, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Withdrawing, and apologizing for the stupid portions of my time here. Thank you. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 21:00, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
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The recording order seems to differ under the headings Recording and Recording Dates. 2001:18E8:2:11B7:25BE:8286:7814:C59A ( talk) 15:31, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure "Boplicity" is by Gil Evans and Miles Davis -- 68.5.86.167 13:06, 2005 July 8 (UTC)
The "Complete Birth of the Cool" CD includes detailed notes by Pete Welding about the origins and history of the nonet, which I've taken most of tonight's additions from. It also includes a shorter piece by Gerry Mulligan from 1971 in which he says Miles was the bandleader, one by Mike Zwerin (who played in the Royal Roost band but not on the studio recordings), and one by Phil Schaap about the radio broadcasts. It seems anal to me to insist that BOTC means the eleven tracks on the original 12" LP, the CD insert says that "Darn That Dream" has been included on the album for more than thirty years. (On getting out the RVG reissue, the Welding and Mulligan pieces are used as notes for that too, but not the Zwerin or Schaap). -- ajn ( talk) 22:45, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Why under 1957 albums? Should be 1950, no?
Cleo Henry is a false name given due to contractual copyright problems; it is Davis and Evans. Charlie Parker used the false name of Charlie Chan because he was under contract from one recording company and then had recorded for another. This is not uncommon during that time of the 40s and 50s.
Jcooper1 ( talk) 02:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Although the first complete compilation was released in 1957, this merely is a matter of changing formats. I would think anyone going to Wikipedia to understand the history of jazz would find it more useful to see this page where the lion's share of the material was first performed, recorded and released: in 1949 and 1950. It strikes me as more confusing than helpful to locate this album in 1957, which is really a matter of converting it to the new 12" format. It was a commercial consideration, and most people old enough to have a vague grasp of the history of recording formats understand this.
For example: If a batch of material was released in a booklet with two 45 rpm singles in it in 1978, and finally came out as a CD in 1985 with a few bonus tracks from 1978, to my mind it would still make sense to place this in a Wikipedia timeline in 1978. And this is typically the way it is done. In short, I respectfully disagree with GoP here, and agree with the unsigned OP (from 21:03, 7 March 2009) Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 19:12, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Birth of the Cool/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Article requirements: All the start class criteria |
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Which of you musical geniuses can explain to us what the oxymoron "unison harmonies," as found at the end of the "Thornhill's influence" section, means?
2602:30A:C0A1:1530:D553:A951:D0A2:7C29 ( talk) 08:11, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
In the case of materials recorded AND RELEASED in the pre-LP era, it makes more sense to place them in a chronology reflecting their actual time of first release. In 1949 and 1950, one would have bought a series of 78's to hear this material, and they would have filed them on their shelves together. To put this "release" in "1957" is revisionist history. The material was recorded and released, for the most part, by 1950. That's when it had its historical impact, and that's where it belongs in Miles Davis' history. The 1957 re-release was merely an attempt to keep up with format changes, with a few "bonus tracks" added, as is done even today with re-releases. How can we move forward with this? My attempt at fixing this yesterday was reversed. Looking up this talk page, clearly I'm not the first who has felt this way about the page. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 19:19, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
In fact, the material was conceived as a whole in 1949, and performed as such at the time. I'm hearing you, and noticing the forced logic. Out of curiosity, have you ever held a 78 rpm record or 10" LP in your hand? I'm asking this for the sake of future discussion. You seem to find something really esoteric that i find commonplace, in all our debates. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 07:03, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
In fact, the material was conceived as a whole in 1949, and performed as such at the time. I'm hearing you, and noticing the forced logic. Out of curiosity, have you ever held a 78 rpm record or 10" LP in your hand? I'm asking this for the sake of future discussion. You seem to find something really esoteric that i find commonplace, in all our debates. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 07:04, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
8 of these recordings were released by 1950. Should I just make a separate sessions page for them, as i've done for other classic 78rpm-era sessions when encountering this curious lack of understanding of how 78s were consumed? so be it. I'll see you there, maybe. Sojambi Pinola ( talk) 07:17, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
@ Cambial Yellowing:, the proper thing to do now is continue this discussion here, as I cautioned you at your talk page and the recent edit summary. For record's sake, and any other interested parties, I will report my comments here:
When citing sources like these. They may just mean that those albums are commercially available at the time of the magazine issue's publication, and it does not negate the possibility they'd been released the month before. Especially if, as you cited, another magazine had confirmed just as much. Anyway, I've replaced it with a better source for February 1957.
WP:SYNTH says "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source." Which of the sources you cited concludes it was released in "either February or March of 1957"?
You used two sources to cite one idea, which is what I quoted. You used "or" to combine those dates into that idea; a conjuction doesn't separate words or ideas but combines them. Your entry into the released field is a synthesis.
Making a footnote of a minority claim (and potential error) is fine, but some quick research into Google Books' catalogue of online-available publications seems to support February 1957 as the majority claim. And I cited one of those sources. I would not object to an adjascent footnote being made to encapsulate whatever few sources there might be that say March... Piotr Jr. ( talk) 22:55, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Pinging some fellow contributors from the article's history: @ Graham87:, @ Dhoffryn:, @ Philip Cross:, @ Sojambi Pinola:. For the record, the content in dispute is this either/or release date(s) attributed to two contemporaneous trade magazine albums ads. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 22:58, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
[Copied from User talk] : Cambial Yellowing Cambial — foliar❧ 23:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Hey. I don't know if you've been creating these speculative synthesized dates elsewhere, but be careful when citing sources like these. They may just mean that those albums are commercially available at the time of the magazine issue's publication, and it does not negate the possibility they'd been released the month before. Especially if, as you cited, another magazine had confirmed just as much. Anyway, I've replaced it with a better source for February 1957. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 21:20, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Piotr Jr.: Refrain from canvassing your personal selection of editors. A simple notification here and or noticeboards if it's really that important to you will suffice. "Research" consisting of googling what you want to be the answer is not persuasive. There were three RS, one published by an academic press and two immediately contemporary to the event. They disagree on the precise month, so both were given and the sources cited. Deleting all three sources because... well you've made no attempt to justify it so I have no idea why – is not appropriate. Cambial — foliar❧ 23:17, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
: I think I justified myself to warrant a discussion and undo your original edit. And I think I pinged editors without any bias, but maybe you can enlighten me about that too ...
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 23:21, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
All right. Since I haven't gotten much response from the second party to this content dispute, particularly some key points, and instead gotten accusations of canvassing, I'm inviting others here in a completely unselective manner, although said party is still welcome to find further verification for his or hers (or their) position. Anyway! On with it. The second party's edit (which had remained, according to them for over a year here before I reverted it today) had made the release date in the infobox to claim "February or March 1957" and same in the lead, with multiple sources cited together, one claiming the March release and the other two or three claiming February. I reduced it to one source after seeing enough sources that made it in my mind a majority claim. After a bit back and forth, much off-topic, here we are.
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 02:08, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Sources that name February 1957 as the release date:
... Piotr Jr. ( talk) 23:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Cambial Yellowing:, Please stop it with these stupid insinuations, and find some sources that back up giving March any weight here. As far as the content is concerned, the March claim is overwhelmingly outnumbered here. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 23:49, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
:: Why would I withdraw the RfC if my point is to make this a battleground, as you say???
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 03:35, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Again with the pathetic insinuations 🙄 ...
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 04:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Go project and blame deflect onto whoever's lodged a complaint against you at ANI. See how far your pretenses get you there.
Piotr Jr. (
talk) 04:09, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Withdrawing, and apologizing for the stupid portions of my time here. Thank you. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 21:00, 25 February 2022 (UTC)