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Biology and sexual orientation & Choice and sexual orientation, both articles are poorly written and hardly readable. Could use some contributions, a possible source could be this week's eleven page Boston Globe article, "What makes people gay?". I recently renamed the two from "environment, choice, and sexual orientation" to "choice and sexual orientation" and "genetics and sexual orientation" to "biology and sexual orientation". Clearly the prenatal hormonal theories (which contradict the choice crowd) do not belong on the same page, the genetics and hormones are more appropriately pasted together under the umbrella of biology. I also suggest that all contributions from this point forward be required to have footnote citation similar to that seen on intelligent design. This would do wonders to improve transparency and accountability as well as provide a deterrent against original research. Polisci 03:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Should the biology and sexual orientation page contain information on species besides humans? For example the fruit fly study and Georgetown's dolphins? Polisci 03:28, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I see that Environment, choice, and sexual orientation has been renamed as Choice and sexual orientation, and that environment is now reduced (in this article) to only very early childhood; among other things, there seems to be no treatment of the differences in sexual norms in different societies. Am I missing something, or is there absolutely no discussion in either article of things like the norm of man/boy love in Ancient Greece, the widespread bisexuality in tribal Borneo, etc.? -- Jmabel | Talk 03:34, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
This was something I found very lacking - the two related articles, Choice and sexual orientation and Biology and sexual orientation have, between them, very little which deals with the social environment and context. Ancient Greece and tribal Borneo aside, the increase in liberal attitudes in modern societies has arguably allowed for more liberal personal attitudes to ones own sexuality to develop, with increased numbers who are (publicly at least) choosing to identify themselves as bi/pan/tri(etc.)sexual -- 81.107.19.168 01:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
A recent edit added the phrase "a possible confound of the research". Since "confound" is not a noun, I can only guess at what this might mean. Could the person who wrote this please try a different word to express this meaning? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:46, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Hrm,
Maybe it's an inappropriate use of jargon, but even just a cursory Google search of this phrasing yielded a similar usage of "confound."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22a+confound%22&btnG=Search
I certainly don't want to make it less readable, it just seemed more succinct to me.
Sorry =/ Varilux 11:55, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm familiar with the term as well, but I'd consider it jargon. Changed to "confounding factor", and wikified. Though actually, I'm fine with just "confound" so long as it's linked. Electrolite 07:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I would have thought that anyone who has been introduced to the term "confounding variable" would also know that an alternative word for this is simply "confound". So yeah I don't think it matters which is used, as long as it is linked to make it clear for those who don't know what a confounding variable is. -- Nzbassist 07:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I cut the following
If citable, something like this may well belong in the article, but as it stands, this is a mix of POV and uncited claims and not much else. - Jmabel | Talk 06:47, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I have some strong reservations about the inclusion of Neil and Briar Whitehead's reference on NPOV grounds. While Neil Whitehead is a microbiologist, he is not a geneticist, and the veracity of his relevant research expertise was challenged at a New Zealand Justice Select Committee submission hearing on civil unions. Moreover, he repeatedly cites Paul Cameron in his research bibliographies. Moreover, his "My Genes Made Me Do It" was not issued by a mainstream publishing house, but the conservative Christian and conspiratorial Huntington House, in Lafayette, Louisiana, instead of a mainstream university academic imprint.
I suggest that Whitehead's reference should be deleted.
User: Calibanu13:14, 28 March 2006.
I cut the following:
It's clearly opinion: there is conflicting data, there are also instances of data that is "bent" to fit with preferred interpretations. The medical interpretations of homosexual individuals is that there are a lot of health issues with it, while mental-health organizations vary broadly across a spectrum of possible conclusions, everywhere from the APA to NARTH, and everywhere in between. Infinitelink 10:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Is the biological hypothesis of sexual orientation really restricted to industralized societies as this article suggests in its opening sentences? Could a citation be made? I'm sure there will be examples of homosexuality being considered a 'born not made' trait in non-industrialized and pre-industrial societies.
If alternate adaptive phenotypes in suppressive societies are responsible for the persistence of genes that result in homosexuality in western society, then the modern culture of open tolerance may be the death knell of those genes. However, even in modern society the genes may be adaptive and more widespread than homosexuality. Heterosexuality may be the predominate phenotype of these genes, and homosexuality only slightly more likely than in those without the genes.-- Poodleboy 10:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The discussion is almost solely centred on the possible Biological determinants for hetero or homosexuality, and where bisexuality is mentioned, it is treated as no more than an offshoot of, or simply an alternative word for, homosexuality. Is this a result of narrow scientific inquiry - as a genetic determinant seems to suggest an either/or situation? As an article on 'sexual orientation' - it seems to subscribe to the narrow bipolar understanding of sexuality. It would not only be interesting, but I think it is required for an article on 'sexual orientation' to consider how the argument for a biological determinant deals with/explains/explores those who fall between the two poles, or, if there is no exploration of this, than a mention of a lack of research in this area would be appropriate.-- 81.107.19.168 02:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Having recently done a review of research on the biological determinants of homosexuality, there is a shortage of research on bisexuality because the small numbers of people who identify as bisexual make it difficult for research carried out to have sufficient statistical power to make broad conclusions. Another issue is that the majority of past research has focused only on male homosexuality, and has largely ignored female homosexuality. -- Nzbassist 07:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Another strong vote here for establishing in the article a clear distinction between exclusive homosexuality and same-sex components of bisexuality. Too much of this matter is obscured, severely affecting/confounding both scientific research and social convictions, by the fact many people can't tell the two apart and only acknowledge a dichotomous polarity of either heterosexuality OR homosexuality. -- TlatoSMD 01:07, 24 June 2006 (CEST)
The article mentions early 20th century research into biological causes for sexual orientation, so I wondered whether hormonological attempts of curing homosexuals with testosterone conducted by Danish SS doctor Carl Vaernet in Buchenwald should be mentioned as well. Here are some resources on Vaernet's experiments under direct supervision of Heinrich Himmler:
-- TlatoSMD 01:22, 24 June 2006 (CEST)
The "Chance events" section (near the end of the article) sounds an awful lot like original research and doesn't even seem to say much, at that. If no one disagrees, I am going to remove this section. rom a rin talk ] 21:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I preferred User:Koavf's version:
to the current version:
The second definition is wrong in my opinion. For example, an assertion that "there is no link between biology and sexual orientation" would produce a logical contradiction according to the second definition. ntennis 02:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
"Breedlove's study also suggests that homosexual men are 'super-males', as their ring-finger lengths were the longest among the four sexual orientations studied." Ring-finger lengths? Do I detect something like an revival of phrenology here? - Jmabel | Talk 03:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
A big section called "Note" in the middle of the article; a "references" section in the middle of the article; I can't tell what in here is extended quotation vs. what is our own text. Can someone (or several someones) who has been active on this possibly sort it out? I haven't been tracking enough to have much of a chance, it would take me hours just to get oriented, so to speak. - Jmabel | Talk 06:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm inclined to believe that the note section should be deleted. The website http://www.trueorigin.org is widely accepted in the scientific community to be unscientific as it states on its website that it is an 'alternative' to evolution. The website does not seem like a "good" published source. Perhaps if a person wanted to include specific studies refuting others mentioned, or refuting a 'gay gene' hypothesis, they should be mentioned in the rest of the article. Greengirl11 06:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Imho, the text has been adjusted on the "Note..." section, but that bizarre parenthetical documentation exists, as well as a citation on a poor source. If nobody has an objection, I'm going to delete the paragraph. Greengirl11 07:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the text in the "Note" section for copyvio issues. It was cut and paste from http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp - a site that holds copyright to that text and states at the bottom of the page, "This document may be copied, on the condition that it will not be republished in print, on line (including reposting on other Web sites), or on computer media, and will not be used for any commercial purpose." Since all text on Wikipedia is released under GFDL, copying is certainly permitted for all uses, so the text had to go. I would suggest going over the whole article to see if anything was copied over from that site. -- Rkitko 06:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Among those religions or churches which teach that homosexuality is sinful, there is a diffenet model of sexuality and sexual identity than that advanced by gay rights proponents.
The anti-homosexuality religious view regards homosexual desires is sinful and thus to be resisted. However, it's rare for any religious leader to espouse the view that someone "chooses to have homosexual desires." These desires are seen as developing rather than consciously chosen.
According to this view, if homosexual desires are developed rather than being innate, then they are changeable. A person can, of course, choose not to change. But if they choose to change, they should be welcomed and aided.
How can the above view be incorporated into the article? -- Uncle Ed 16:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Alison, if there are religious leaders who have said explicitly that people choose to have homosexual desires, then we should quote them in the article. I did not mean to deny that such statements have been made. However, I wonder if your statement is based on actual quotes from religious leaders, or is an inference you've drawn from a quote.
What I've seen from religious leaders about "choice" and "homosexual desires" is the assertion that a person who realizes that they have homosexual desires has a choice to act in accordance with them or to resist them. For example, a person on a diet probably cannot decide to "feel hungry" but they can choose whether to eat pizza or celery.
Pete, I don't know what non-starter means, but everything I've read about the science of homosexuality has focussed on one main question: is homosexual desire innate or developed? As far as I know, science has not yet come out with a definitive Yes it's nature or No it's nurture. If I've missed something, please make sure it gets into the article. -- Uncle Ed 18:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
"Non-heterosexual orientations significantly decrease the chances of successful reproduction..." What is the basis for this claim? Sounds like hogwash to me. I can't any prima facie reason to believe that bisexuality would reduce one's chances of reproduction. I can't see any reason why being a closeted gay person who carries on a marriage for "cover" would reduce one's chances of reproduction. The issue of reducing one's chances of reproduction is, presumably, entirely a matter of sexual behavior, not orientation or identity. - Jmabel | Talk 06:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
There are too many citation requests in this article, and some of the requests are, in my view, senseless. Perhaps that should be changed. Witnwisdumb 07:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC) witnwisdumb
Actually, evolution does not and can not take place at the individual level. The population is the smallest unit upon which evolution can act. This was stated with unambiguously in a university-level lecture last week. This section needs to be changed:
Another theory in support of positive adaptiveness of homosexuality and bisexuality is that these sexual orientations provide some benefit to the local community in general. Communities that are so supported would be stronger and more likely to survive in the future. [citation needed] The primary criticism of this theory is that genetic evolution works on the level of individuals, not communities. If heterosexuals have an individual reproductive advantage over homosexuals and bisexuals in a given community, after a very long period of time, the community should be composed solely of heterosexuals, regardless of how this affects the community as a whole.
I'm not sure whether that invalidates the criticism of the theory or not, but "genetic evolution" (which should be evolution. adding genetic is redundant) does not act on the individual - only on the population. Whoever wrote this must have intended to say population. A community involves several species, which is irrelevant here.
Mike.lifeguard 21:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
76.237.219.54 ( talk) 19:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC) When the article text states: "The primary criticism of this theory.... This means that to be adaptive, a "gay uncle" would need to somehow assist an extra two nieces or nephews, on average, to reach adulthood for every one of their own offspring they give up. Critics of the theory find this trade-off to be unlikely to produce a net reproductive gain."
I note that net reproductive gain does not have to be assessed on a per-generation basis. Having gay uncles may mean reduced population pressure during times of economic stress, or it may mean having additional males on hand to fight a battle (or to till the field while others fight, no matter) -- the value of the gay uncle can also be as "buffer" or as "insurance / reserves" in handling population pressures. An analysis that focuses on single-generation advantage is too limited.
If every adult in a population has children to care for, either some children will be negleted, or some higher level population functions will be neglected. Non-reproductive adults put "ease" into a population.
"However, around 1% of men and 2% of women are homosexual exclusively or in part." This is implausible and uncited. It is perhaps one-fifth of the lowest number for men that I have ever seen in any decent source, and I doubt that number gave much latitude for "in part". Where (if anywhere) does this come from? Can't we find something reasonable to cite? - Jmabel | Talk 03:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The article didn't call for a prevalence estimate, so I removed it in my clean-up. ChrisTW 07:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This section of the twin studies article is very very long. I suggest moving the best criticisms to the bottom of the twin studies section rather than presenting it as 'conclusions' which is a little NPOV. ChrisTW 07:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The conclusions don't seem to match the results of the twin studies. I'm a little confused where the chart came from, but it doesn't seem to correspond to the statements of the researchers or their data which didn't show a statistically significant genetic correlation. I would like to see this section cleaned up. I might do it myself if I have time and there are no objections. -- Kraftlos 21:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I just stumbled across Handedness and sexual orientation, which doesn't do much more than report three studies on the subject; it suggests there may be some correlation, but it appears two of the studies clearly disagree on the gender-specific results. Anyone more familiar with the general topic care to take a look at it? Shimgray | talk | 00:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Has there ever been any academic suggestion that homosexuality, if as an inherent trait, could be a means of natural population control? If so please add and quote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chevrox ( talk • contribs)
I have a problem with this statement and I am wondering if others agree with me -
Yet homosexuality does not appear to be adaptive from an evolutionary standpoint because homosexual sex does not produce children. If there is a biological involvement, how could it be engineered by evolution?
I suppose one could argue that children are born homosexual for some evolutionary reason, inherited from their parents.
Whatever the case, this is a rather silly statement to have at the start of the article, since the article discusses scientific evidence, not opinions.....
Considering the sensitivity of the subject matter, I figured it should be discussed before it is taken out.
-- Mrlopez2681 18:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Cut from end of article:
I happen to agree with this opinion, but I think it should be a citation or reference, rather than being asserted as fact. Can someone help me find a source, please? -- Uncle Ed 15:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I see that the heading Environment, choice, and sexual orientation now redirects to this one, and I see that it has supposedly been merged into this one. However, vast amounts of information that used to be in the other article do not appear here, and have simply been deleted from Wikipedia entirely by the deletion of the other article. Can we please review the merger and reconsider how to make available the information that was in the Environment, choice, and sexual orientation article?
As it stands currently, the effect of the deletion and so-called merger is just to remove the vast majority of the information that had previously served to counter-balance this article. This article treats the causes of sexual orientation as something that can be studied only or overwhelmingly primarily by looking at genetic research for and against. But the Environment, choice, and sexual orientation article provided a very different approach which focused primarily on social science research and social identity-development theories. Most of the information on the relevant social science appears to have disappeared completely rather than being merged into any other Wikipedia article.
Sorry folks, this type of thoughtful musing (while interesting) is not appropriate for the main article - see No Original Research. It has been moved here for further discussion, and invitation for any editors to supply existing references that meet Wikipedia's standards. GiveItSomeThought 19:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The following material is being moved here, so that other editors can comment/correct/improve/add references, etc. I have left an extended welcome, and suggestions for new contributor Profarmadillo on his talk page to thank him for his thoughtful writing, and to make suggestions about bringing this writing closer to Wikipedia standards. If any other editor has ideas about editing the following material so that it can be included in the article, please feel free to do so! GiveItSomeThought 01:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone put a article about the link between the counterclockwise and clockwise hair line pattern that relates to being homosexual? And the index finger vs. ring finger part as seen on The Colbert Report, known as the Science of Gaydar? http://nymag.com/news/features/33520/
The opening sentence of this article says, "Sexuality researchers are often interested in homosexuality because there is evidence from twin studies that there is a biological involvement in its determination." This is a strange statement on two counts. Firstly, why would they not be interested, with or without twin studies? Secondly, the article cited in support of the sentence states that twin studies have been inconclusive. Further in the article the section on twins studies says," A recent large-scale twin study, done by researchers at Yale University and Columbia University, concludes that "there is no evidence for strong genetic influence on same-sex preference in this sample." Later statements suggest that any genetic theory is tenuous. A large scale recent study carries more weight, so the very significant opening sentence seems unjustifiable POV. -- 81.129.138.173 15:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The "Out in Nature" documentary, reflection on the nature of Kinsey's extremely meticulous work and in particular observation of the phenomenon in insects finally turned the light on for me in a final level of understanding. Some mention of the "8-12% observed across many species" quote though is what my comment is about. The animal studies show the phenomenon for what it is: the natural in-born error rate in nature which in general does not produce heterosexual animals with anything like 100% efficiency. The interesting thing is how, presumably by an application of the central limit theorem or other applicable mathematical and empirical truths, and with a range of species from fruit flies to dolphins and humans the mean 10% figure emerges. Something more on that would be great. Lycurgus 14:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Biology and sexual orientation & Choice and sexual orientation, both articles are poorly written and hardly readable. Could use some contributions, a possible source could be this week's eleven page Boston Globe article, "What makes people gay?". I recently renamed the two from "environment, choice, and sexual orientation" to "choice and sexual orientation" and "genetics and sexual orientation" to "biology and sexual orientation". Clearly the prenatal hormonal theories (which contradict the choice crowd) do not belong on the same page, the genetics and hormones are more appropriately pasted together under the umbrella of biology. I also suggest that all contributions from this point forward be required to have footnote citation similar to that seen on intelligent design. This would do wonders to improve transparency and accountability as well as provide a deterrent against original research. Polisci 03:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Should the biology and sexual orientation page contain information on species besides humans? For example the fruit fly study and Georgetown's dolphins? Polisci 03:28, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I see that Environment, choice, and sexual orientation has been renamed as Choice and sexual orientation, and that environment is now reduced (in this article) to only very early childhood; among other things, there seems to be no treatment of the differences in sexual norms in different societies. Am I missing something, or is there absolutely no discussion in either article of things like the norm of man/boy love in Ancient Greece, the widespread bisexuality in tribal Borneo, etc.? -- Jmabel | Talk 03:34, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
This was something I found very lacking - the two related articles, Choice and sexual orientation and Biology and sexual orientation have, between them, very little which deals with the social environment and context. Ancient Greece and tribal Borneo aside, the increase in liberal attitudes in modern societies has arguably allowed for more liberal personal attitudes to ones own sexuality to develop, with increased numbers who are (publicly at least) choosing to identify themselves as bi/pan/tri(etc.)sexual -- 81.107.19.168 01:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
A recent edit added the phrase "a possible confound of the research". Since "confound" is not a noun, I can only guess at what this might mean. Could the person who wrote this please try a different word to express this meaning? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:46, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Hrm,
Maybe it's an inappropriate use of jargon, but even just a cursory Google search of this phrasing yielded a similar usage of "confound."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22a+confound%22&btnG=Search
I certainly don't want to make it less readable, it just seemed more succinct to me.
Sorry =/ Varilux 11:55, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm familiar with the term as well, but I'd consider it jargon. Changed to "confounding factor", and wikified. Though actually, I'm fine with just "confound" so long as it's linked. Electrolite 07:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I would have thought that anyone who has been introduced to the term "confounding variable" would also know that an alternative word for this is simply "confound". So yeah I don't think it matters which is used, as long as it is linked to make it clear for those who don't know what a confounding variable is. -- Nzbassist 07:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I cut the following
If citable, something like this may well belong in the article, but as it stands, this is a mix of POV and uncited claims and not much else. - Jmabel | Talk 06:47, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I have some strong reservations about the inclusion of Neil and Briar Whitehead's reference on NPOV grounds. While Neil Whitehead is a microbiologist, he is not a geneticist, and the veracity of his relevant research expertise was challenged at a New Zealand Justice Select Committee submission hearing on civil unions. Moreover, he repeatedly cites Paul Cameron in his research bibliographies. Moreover, his "My Genes Made Me Do It" was not issued by a mainstream publishing house, but the conservative Christian and conspiratorial Huntington House, in Lafayette, Louisiana, instead of a mainstream university academic imprint.
I suggest that Whitehead's reference should be deleted.
User: Calibanu13:14, 28 March 2006.
I cut the following:
It's clearly opinion: there is conflicting data, there are also instances of data that is "bent" to fit with preferred interpretations. The medical interpretations of homosexual individuals is that there are a lot of health issues with it, while mental-health organizations vary broadly across a spectrum of possible conclusions, everywhere from the APA to NARTH, and everywhere in between. Infinitelink 10:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Is the biological hypothesis of sexual orientation really restricted to industralized societies as this article suggests in its opening sentences? Could a citation be made? I'm sure there will be examples of homosexuality being considered a 'born not made' trait in non-industrialized and pre-industrial societies.
If alternate adaptive phenotypes in suppressive societies are responsible for the persistence of genes that result in homosexuality in western society, then the modern culture of open tolerance may be the death knell of those genes. However, even in modern society the genes may be adaptive and more widespread than homosexuality. Heterosexuality may be the predominate phenotype of these genes, and homosexuality only slightly more likely than in those without the genes.-- Poodleboy 10:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The discussion is almost solely centred on the possible Biological determinants for hetero or homosexuality, and where bisexuality is mentioned, it is treated as no more than an offshoot of, or simply an alternative word for, homosexuality. Is this a result of narrow scientific inquiry - as a genetic determinant seems to suggest an either/or situation? As an article on 'sexual orientation' - it seems to subscribe to the narrow bipolar understanding of sexuality. It would not only be interesting, but I think it is required for an article on 'sexual orientation' to consider how the argument for a biological determinant deals with/explains/explores those who fall between the two poles, or, if there is no exploration of this, than a mention of a lack of research in this area would be appropriate.-- 81.107.19.168 02:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Having recently done a review of research on the biological determinants of homosexuality, there is a shortage of research on bisexuality because the small numbers of people who identify as bisexual make it difficult for research carried out to have sufficient statistical power to make broad conclusions. Another issue is that the majority of past research has focused only on male homosexuality, and has largely ignored female homosexuality. -- Nzbassist 07:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Another strong vote here for establishing in the article a clear distinction between exclusive homosexuality and same-sex components of bisexuality. Too much of this matter is obscured, severely affecting/confounding both scientific research and social convictions, by the fact many people can't tell the two apart and only acknowledge a dichotomous polarity of either heterosexuality OR homosexuality. -- TlatoSMD 01:07, 24 June 2006 (CEST)
The article mentions early 20th century research into biological causes for sexual orientation, so I wondered whether hormonological attempts of curing homosexuals with testosterone conducted by Danish SS doctor Carl Vaernet in Buchenwald should be mentioned as well. Here are some resources on Vaernet's experiments under direct supervision of Heinrich Himmler:
-- TlatoSMD 01:22, 24 June 2006 (CEST)
The "Chance events" section (near the end of the article) sounds an awful lot like original research and doesn't even seem to say much, at that. If no one disagrees, I am going to remove this section. rom a rin talk ] 21:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I preferred User:Koavf's version:
to the current version:
The second definition is wrong in my opinion. For example, an assertion that "there is no link between biology and sexual orientation" would produce a logical contradiction according to the second definition. ntennis 02:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
"Breedlove's study also suggests that homosexual men are 'super-males', as their ring-finger lengths were the longest among the four sexual orientations studied." Ring-finger lengths? Do I detect something like an revival of phrenology here? - Jmabel | Talk 03:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
A big section called "Note" in the middle of the article; a "references" section in the middle of the article; I can't tell what in here is extended quotation vs. what is our own text. Can someone (or several someones) who has been active on this possibly sort it out? I haven't been tracking enough to have much of a chance, it would take me hours just to get oriented, so to speak. - Jmabel | Talk 06:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm inclined to believe that the note section should be deleted. The website http://www.trueorigin.org is widely accepted in the scientific community to be unscientific as it states on its website that it is an 'alternative' to evolution. The website does not seem like a "good" published source. Perhaps if a person wanted to include specific studies refuting others mentioned, or refuting a 'gay gene' hypothesis, they should be mentioned in the rest of the article. Greengirl11 06:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Imho, the text has been adjusted on the "Note..." section, but that bizarre parenthetical documentation exists, as well as a citation on a poor source. If nobody has an objection, I'm going to delete the paragraph. Greengirl11 07:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the text in the "Note" section for copyvio issues. It was cut and paste from http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp - a site that holds copyright to that text and states at the bottom of the page, "This document may be copied, on the condition that it will not be republished in print, on line (including reposting on other Web sites), or on computer media, and will not be used for any commercial purpose." Since all text on Wikipedia is released under GFDL, copying is certainly permitted for all uses, so the text had to go. I would suggest going over the whole article to see if anything was copied over from that site. -- Rkitko 06:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Among those religions or churches which teach that homosexuality is sinful, there is a diffenet model of sexuality and sexual identity than that advanced by gay rights proponents.
The anti-homosexuality religious view regards homosexual desires is sinful and thus to be resisted. However, it's rare for any religious leader to espouse the view that someone "chooses to have homosexual desires." These desires are seen as developing rather than consciously chosen.
According to this view, if homosexual desires are developed rather than being innate, then they are changeable. A person can, of course, choose not to change. But if they choose to change, they should be welcomed and aided.
How can the above view be incorporated into the article? -- Uncle Ed 16:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Alison, if there are religious leaders who have said explicitly that people choose to have homosexual desires, then we should quote them in the article. I did not mean to deny that such statements have been made. However, I wonder if your statement is based on actual quotes from religious leaders, or is an inference you've drawn from a quote.
What I've seen from religious leaders about "choice" and "homosexual desires" is the assertion that a person who realizes that they have homosexual desires has a choice to act in accordance with them or to resist them. For example, a person on a diet probably cannot decide to "feel hungry" but they can choose whether to eat pizza or celery.
Pete, I don't know what non-starter means, but everything I've read about the science of homosexuality has focussed on one main question: is homosexual desire innate or developed? As far as I know, science has not yet come out with a definitive Yes it's nature or No it's nurture. If I've missed something, please make sure it gets into the article. -- Uncle Ed 18:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
"Non-heterosexual orientations significantly decrease the chances of successful reproduction..." What is the basis for this claim? Sounds like hogwash to me. I can't any prima facie reason to believe that bisexuality would reduce one's chances of reproduction. I can't see any reason why being a closeted gay person who carries on a marriage for "cover" would reduce one's chances of reproduction. The issue of reducing one's chances of reproduction is, presumably, entirely a matter of sexual behavior, not orientation or identity. - Jmabel | Talk 06:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
There are too many citation requests in this article, and some of the requests are, in my view, senseless. Perhaps that should be changed. Witnwisdumb 07:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC) witnwisdumb
Actually, evolution does not and can not take place at the individual level. The population is the smallest unit upon which evolution can act. This was stated with unambiguously in a university-level lecture last week. This section needs to be changed:
Another theory in support of positive adaptiveness of homosexuality and bisexuality is that these sexual orientations provide some benefit to the local community in general. Communities that are so supported would be stronger and more likely to survive in the future. [citation needed] The primary criticism of this theory is that genetic evolution works on the level of individuals, not communities. If heterosexuals have an individual reproductive advantage over homosexuals and bisexuals in a given community, after a very long period of time, the community should be composed solely of heterosexuals, regardless of how this affects the community as a whole.
I'm not sure whether that invalidates the criticism of the theory or not, but "genetic evolution" (which should be evolution. adding genetic is redundant) does not act on the individual - only on the population. Whoever wrote this must have intended to say population. A community involves several species, which is irrelevant here.
Mike.lifeguard 21:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
76.237.219.54 ( talk) 19:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC) When the article text states: "The primary criticism of this theory.... This means that to be adaptive, a "gay uncle" would need to somehow assist an extra two nieces or nephews, on average, to reach adulthood for every one of their own offspring they give up. Critics of the theory find this trade-off to be unlikely to produce a net reproductive gain."
I note that net reproductive gain does not have to be assessed on a per-generation basis. Having gay uncles may mean reduced population pressure during times of economic stress, or it may mean having additional males on hand to fight a battle (or to till the field while others fight, no matter) -- the value of the gay uncle can also be as "buffer" or as "insurance / reserves" in handling population pressures. An analysis that focuses on single-generation advantage is too limited.
If every adult in a population has children to care for, either some children will be negleted, or some higher level population functions will be neglected. Non-reproductive adults put "ease" into a population.
"However, around 1% of men and 2% of women are homosexual exclusively or in part." This is implausible and uncited. It is perhaps one-fifth of the lowest number for men that I have ever seen in any decent source, and I doubt that number gave much latitude for "in part". Where (if anywhere) does this come from? Can't we find something reasonable to cite? - Jmabel | Talk 03:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The article didn't call for a prevalence estimate, so I removed it in my clean-up. ChrisTW 07:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This section of the twin studies article is very very long. I suggest moving the best criticisms to the bottom of the twin studies section rather than presenting it as 'conclusions' which is a little NPOV. ChrisTW 07:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The conclusions don't seem to match the results of the twin studies. I'm a little confused where the chart came from, but it doesn't seem to correspond to the statements of the researchers or their data which didn't show a statistically significant genetic correlation. I would like to see this section cleaned up. I might do it myself if I have time and there are no objections. -- Kraftlos 21:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I just stumbled across Handedness and sexual orientation, which doesn't do much more than report three studies on the subject; it suggests there may be some correlation, but it appears two of the studies clearly disagree on the gender-specific results. Anyone more familiar with the general topic care to take a look at it? Shimgray | talk | 00:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Has there ever been any academic suggestion that homosexuality, if as an inherent trait, could be a means of natural population control? If so please add and quote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chevrox ( talk • contribs)
I have a problem with this statement and I am wondering if others agree with me -
Yet homosexuality does not appear to be adaptive from an evolutionary standpoint because homosexual sex does not produce children. If there is a biological involvement, how could it be engineered by evolution?
I suppose one could argue that children are born homosexual for some evolutionary reason, inherited from their parents.
Whatever the case, this is a rather silly statement to have at the start of the article, since the article discusses scientific evidence, not opinions.....
Considering the sensitivity of the subject matter, I figured it should be discussed before it is taken out.
-- Mrlopez2681 18:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Cut from end of article:
I happen to agree with this opinion, but I think it should be a citation or reference, rather than being asserted as fact. Can someone help me find a source, please? -- Uncle Ed 15:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I see that the heading Environment, choice, and sexual orientation now redirects to this one, and I see that it has supposedly been merged into this one. However, vast amounts of information that used to be in the other article do not appear here, and have simply been deleted from Wikipedia entirely by the deletion of the other article. Can we please review the merger and reconsider how to make available the information that was in the Environment, choice, and sexual orientation article?
As it stands currently, the effect of the deletion and so-called merger is just to remove the vast majority of the information that had previously served to counter-balance this article. This article treats the causes of sexual orientation as something that can be studied only or overwhelmingly primarily by looking at genetic research for and against. But the Environment, choice, and sexual orientation article provided a very different approach which focused primarily on social science research and social identity-development theories. Most of the information on the relevant social science appears to have disappeared completely rather than being merged into any other Wikipedia article.
Sorry folks, this type of thoughtful musing (while interesting) is not appropriate for the main article - see No Original Research. It has been moved here for further discussion, and invitation for any editors to supply existing references that meet Wikipedia's standards. GiveItSomeThought 19:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The following material is being moved here, so that other editors can comment/correct/improve/add references, etc. I have left an extended welcome, and suggestions for new contributor Profarmadillo on his talk page to thank him for his thoughtful writing, and to make suggestions about bringing this writing closer to Wikipedia standards. If any other editor has ideas about editing the following material so that it can be included in the article, please feel free to do so! GiveItSomeThought 01:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone put a article about the link between the counterclockwise and clockwise hair line pattern that relates to being homosexual? And the index finger vs. ring finger part as seen on The Colbert Report, known as the Science of Gaydar? http://nymag.com/news/features/33520/
The opening sentence of this article says, "Sexuality researchers are often interested in homosexuality because there is evidence from twin studies that there is a biological involvement in its determination." This is a strange statement on two counts. Firstly, why would they not be interested, with or without twin studies? Secondly, the article cited in support of the sentence states that twin studies have been inconclusive. Further in the article the section on twins studies says," A recent large-scale twin study, done by researchers at Yale University and Columbia University, concludes that "there is no evidence for strong genetic influence on same-sex preference in this sample." Later statements suggest that any genetic theory is tenuous. A large scale recent study carries more weight, so the very significant opening sentence seems unjustifiable POV. -- 81.129.138.173 15:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The "Out in Nature" documentary, reflection on the nature of Kinsey's extremely meticulous work and in particular observation of the phenomenon in insects finally turned the light on for me in a final level of understanding. Some mention of the "8-12% observed across many species" quote though is what my comment is about. The animal studies show the phenomenon for what it is: the natural in-born error rate in nature which in general does not produce heterosexual animals with anything like 100% efficiency. The interesting thing is how, presumably by an application of the central limit theorem or other applicable mathematical and empirical truths, and with a range of species from fruit flies to dolphins and humans the mean 10% figure emerges. Something more on that would be great. Lycurgus 14:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)