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I came to this page looking for his education, degrees, etc. I'm surprised that it lacks the typical biographical information. Or is that too controversial? ;-) -- Mulp 19:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Why in the world is the image of Moyers one from forty years ago? He is known as a journalist -- has been for decades. Google him and journalism hits are what come up. What's going on here? If I knew how, I'd post a photo from his current show, BILL MOYERS JOURNAL... Fulana 00:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the prompt, informative reply! If I can figure out how to get a "kosher" photo and upload it, I will. Fulana 01:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe the criticism section has the tone or sound of an encyclopedia. It would appear that the only noteworthy thing about Moyers is his politial views. Of course my second statement is actually true from the standpoint of adults who would be doing a search for Moyers - if not for his criticism, would anyone know who he is at all? That said, I think Google is a better venue for locating that kind of info, and wiki should be more historical/biographical in my opinion. I would reduce the criticism section to links as well - it wouldn't (the wiki page) be nearly as controversial in that case, and the criticism would not appear to outsize the bio.
I just reverted the page to the Apr 8 version. An anonymous person had added "Moyers has lately been accused of fanatic liberalism as his independance has recently come into question." If this is true, fine, include it, but you need to back it up. Who made the accusation? Why? When? His independence from what has been called into question? Without any supporting evidence it just sounds like slander. The term "fanatic liberal" may have some NPOV problems as well... -- Osbojos 21:25, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
This page is linked to from June 5 as well as June 6, both of which list those days as his birthday. Does anyone know for sure which it is? I've seen it listed as both all over the Internet.
-- Gjking
He was born June 5, 1934. (By the way, the most famous June 5/6 confusion is, sadly, the assassination of RFK. He was shot on June 5 and died on June 6. When the assassination happened, Bill Moyers went to Bobby Kennedy's headquarters in NY or DC -- I'm not sure which -- and said, "I'll do anything -- make coffee, anything...")
What's the copyright status of the recently-added Bill Moyers image? The user who added the image has very few edits and may be unaware of the copyright policy. -- Osbojos 20:28, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The first external link, Marshall News Messenger - http://www.marshallnewsmessenger.com/ - does not work properly so I will remove it.
I object to the use of the term "left-wing" to describe Bill Moyers. He was born a Southern Baptist and is still, by all accounts, a devout and conservative Christian. He worked for Lyndon Johnson, who was a moderate to conservative Democrat, selected as VP to balance the liberal views of J. F. Kennedy. As Johnson's press secretary, Moyers took a lot of heat from liberals for the Vietnam war policy. As a television journalist, he has often explored issues from a populist point of view, but that does not make him "left-wing" in the usual sense of espousing larger, more centralized government. I think "progressive" would describe him more fairly. Let's keep polarizing terms like "left-wing" out of Wikipedia! --WLH
WLH, I agree with you re the term "liberal" having been turned into a pejorative (apparently for political reasons) which was why I added the qualification indicating it was so "by US standards". Politics aside, I would like to see Wikipedia carrying an international flavour and perspective - avoiding any national overlays. Because of its cultural/economic dominance this cccurs most frequently from a U.S. perspective.
cariboo 02:04, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This IP seems to keep editing the article with nonNPOV statements about Moyers' journalistic activities as well as adding lots of links to anti-moyer articles. I think the second is okay as Moyers is a somewhat controversial figure, but if articles are being linked there should be a balance between pro and anti Moyers opinion peices. Tombride 19:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just reverted a revert (a wikipedia first for me), and actually find myself in the awkward position of defending ip 24.130.117.205. I disagree with ip 67.40.0.28 that his last edit constituted vandalism. The Moyers quotes 24.130.117.205 provides seem accurate, and providing quotes where Moyers presents an admittedly "left-wing" perspective seems better than his previous edits, which consisted mostly of hearsay and name calling. I suggest that instead of deleting his comments someone provides a bit of balance by expanding on some of Moyers less controversial accomplishments. I'd be happy to do some of this myself, but I want to make sure there's a consensus that 24.130.117.205's most recent edit is appropriate and relatively npov. A problem I can see with my suggestion, however, is that this article could turn from focusing on Moyers to a lengthy series of attacks and defenses of Moyers' credibility. What do others think? -- Osbojos 21:03, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This is 24.130.117.205. There are links provided where Bill Moyers speaks for himself and the NOW link comes from his (and now David Brancaccio's) view of what the show offers its viewers. I don't see how providing exact quotes from Moyers' is in any way inappropriate. Nearly every conservative commentator has criticized Moyers for promoting his personal ideology at taxpayer expense, while railing against those on the Right who do so free of charge to the taxpayer. FAIR is as clearly a left-wing group as Accuracy in Media is a right-wing one. All the attendees at Take Back America were left of center. I certainly wouldn't erase any links providing pro-Moyers commentary. John Stossel's page includes a link to FAIR's criticism of him (FAIR only criticizes non-liberal journalists, as AIM only criticizes non-conservative ones), and he's far less conservative than Moyers is liberal. David Horowitz's page is filled with anti-Horowitz links, and don't intend to erase any of them. -- Cryptico 19 June 2005
Not a huge deal, but the article says Bill Moyers was Press Secretary from 1965–1967. The box at the bottom, though, as well as the White_House_Press_Secretary page have his term as 1965–1966. I don't know which is correct, but I thought I should bring it up.
Bill Moyers was press secretary from July 1965 to February 1967.
This page is typical of many other Wikipedia articles on liberal politicians and journalists. The old saying goes that the victors write the (revisionist) history, and this is precisely what is happening. The entry on Lyndon Johnson is enough to turn your stomach, and it, as well as this entry, is enough for me to conclude that Wikipedia is basically worthless as a source of unbiased historical information.
What the hell are you yapping about? Bill Moyers is a liberal activist who has tried to masquerade as an unbiased journalist for decades now, but there is quote after quote after quote that show him to be nothing more than a left-wing hack, no different from right-wingers he berates on a regular basis (except that those right-wingers are honest enough to call themselves conservatives, and they don't bilk the taxpayers to subsidize their shows). His alliance with FAIR, Al Franken, Eric Alterman, Take Back America and numerous other left-wing organizations is proof enough that he is no journalist. Name one quote or piece of information on this page that is untrue.
FAIR is clearly a "liberal" group; it describes itself as "progressive" on its website (a popular euphemism for liberal, if technically inaccurate) and produces liberal shows and writing to balance what it sees as a "conservative bias" in the mainstream media. FAIR does not come within striking distance of, say, Wikipedia's own NPOV policy. If I wrote articles from the viewpoint that FAIR produced media, then claimed to be objective, all my edits would get a "not-NPOV" tag. -- Xinoph 03:46, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
If progressive simply meant liberal, then the dictionary entry would say "see liberal". Or vice versa. Positively amazing that I can list entries from a dictionary and have it called spin. I applaud you. To put it another way, a square is a rectangle but a square is not a rectangle. We must understand potential differences even as we identify similarities. Overgeneralizing does not cut it.
Even if "progressives" and "liberals" unite on certain goals, making them politically similar or even approaching politically identical..... "liberal" means broadminded while "progressive" concerns itself with progress and new ideas. Did you even read my post?
I could be interested in the progress of my stock portfolio and new ideas concerning how to invest that stock portfolio but that in no way requires me to be broadminded in the sense that liberal indicates.
In practice, the two often coincide, but it is not specifically required by the definition of the words. I understand that the progressives you obviously refer to are probably in favor of liberal progress, etc..
My point before: if it says progressive, just say progressive. If their definition of progress and new ideas are open-minded in nature, then you could call them progressive AND liberal. We have to be careful with words, as evidenced with this whole conversation.
You perhaps assumed that I was saying they are *completely* different. That is not so, if you read what I typed. Going too far the other way is incorrect as well.
( Antelope In Search Of Truth 22:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC))
Political commentary was rolled into criticism, which was a mistake, as it was done. (When I say the criticism follows the man's record, I mean: "lay out his record first, then the criticism".)
Political commentary of Bill Moyers was merely collected and cited, in of itself, and then dumped into the criticism section. The commentary in question, while potentially relevant to criticism, was not even cited/referred to by the critics and their criticism listed in the Criticism section.
Thus, a Wikipedian saw fit to represent commentary of Bill Moyers as criticism of the man. Very sloppy.
Last time I checked, Wikipedians are not supposed to formally author criticism sections ( WP:NOR). They are to supply content representing criticism other critics have.
As it is, the criticism content (that is, the words of a critic) that was submitted, doesn't even have a source! The source that was listed did not have the content in question within it. So while a Criticism section may have relevance, leaving the little bit there that I did was being kind. The section has merit, it just needs to be expanded.
( Antelope In Search Of Truth 22:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC))
"Some critics" is incomplete. If there are critics, simply list them when you list the criticism. Saying "some critics" think "x" is not responsible when you are listing criticism of a single critic.
If more than one critic agree, fine...... there should be a subsection within criticism for the Issue being Criticized and then those criticisms can be listed under that subsection.
But when you say some critics and deliver only one or are unclear about who the actual critic(s) is/are, that is inaccurate.
( Antelope In Search Of Truth 22:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC))
"You flat out lie and say that "progressive" and "liberal" have two different meanings,"
I already answered this above at the end of the FAIR discussion [ [1]]: "I'll grant you that progressives appear to be liberal, but not all liberals appear to be specifically focused on economic, and environmental justice and sustainability." Keyword there = "specifically". I was NOT saying they are completely different (which we agree, would be inaccurate), but that they have some differences. It seems like it's all black and white with you. I hope this is not the case.
By way of example, take trees. There are many different kinds of trees. But to say, "a tree is a tree is a tree" is not the whole story. Sure, there are common characteristics, but Weeping Willows have differences from Fir Trees, even as they share commonalities. It is the specific focus of progressives, that is the difference, however small, in this case. Even if, in reality, this difference is stated, not actual, the fact that they have stated a specific focus different from other liberals, at the very least, constitutes a difference.
If we applied your logic to "the right", someone could then conclude that all Republicans = Religious right = Log Cabin Republicans. It's all the same. And yet if you click on the links, there are obvious differences that can be noted.
But fear not! If "progressive" and "liberal" really are the same, then the record regarding what they advocate, will show this. It is not our job to show this by slanting the language. By glossing over all of it and declaring that, "whatever they say, progressive is liberal", etc., you appear to be saying, "liberals and progressives advocate the exact same things, even if they appear to say otherwise". But Wikipedia is in the business of recording information. If you are purposefully ignoring information just because you don't think it is true, this renders you un-objective and therefore, prone to breaking WP:NPOV.
( Antelope In Search Of Truth 19:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC))
Gerkinstock, please do not revert Antelope In Search Of Truth's edits until consensus has been agreed and issues have been addressed. Reasoning that Antelope In Search Of Truth "must work for Bill Moyer" is not justification for removing edits, please assume Assume good faith and continue mediation process-- Zleitzen 16:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not convinced that your comments above such as "What is wrong with you, anyway?" and "Why don't go buy some cookies and edit Barney's page, or maybe Kermit the Frog's page" are attempts to address the edits or reach consensus. I would suggest that you keep to discussing the particular edits here. Breaching Wikipedia Etiquette WP:WQT will only lead to a block or ban. -- Zleitzen 16:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I would recommend that both editors involved in this conflict temporarily avoid editing or reverting the article while there is a mediation / request for comment in process. -- Zleitzen 18:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Gerkinstock's recently added "citations needed" links are inappropriate and motivated purely out of anger that he's being asked to find citations for the more contentious assertions in the criticism section. For uncontroversial common knowledge, citations are unnecessary, see WP:CITE#When_to_cite_sources -- Osbojos 00:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any issues with the article in it's present state, Gerkinstock? -- Zleitzen 15:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is good overall. I've taken some time to read over the article and the talk page. It sounds like the disagreement is over the criticism section of the article.
There has been a lot of discussion as to what is "liberal" what is "progressive" etc. I think that conversation is not helpful. Neither of you are going to agree on this. You can sit and argue about that until your both blue in the face, but I don't think it will get you anywhere.
I'm going to put out there right now what my bias is, which I am a liberal. I won't hide it. But at the same time I have written many articles on conservative politicans in Oregon. Your more the welcome to look at my user page and scroll down and look at the list of articles I've worked on. I may not agree with what some of these people say, but I try my best to keep the article NPOV.
That said, I can see two problems with the criticism section.
1) This line needs to be changed slightly to be more objective:
"Moyers' frequent criticism of conservatives and conservatism has led conservative critics to label him a liberal commentator rather than an objective journalist."
Instead I propose that it read, "Moyers' frequent criticism of conservative and conservatism has led conservative critics such as Brent Bozell to label him a liberal commentator rather then an objective journalist." (Note: Brent Bozell has an article so his name would be linked. Also the link to the article Mr. Bozell wrote should be in the notes section as well.)
2) This line needs something added to make it more apparent why it is in the article:
"He has also been involved with the group Take Back America, an organization that seeks to help elect liberal political candidates." (Note: the link to Take Back America should lead to an internal article with in Wikipedia, not an external website. If you want the website linked, then it should be added to the "External Links" section.)
I think it also need to be brought up how he is linked to Take Back America. This is important for the reader to understand the possible conflict of interest.
Lastly, if there is something that you would like to add then lets look at it and analyze why it should be added to the article. Remember, the article needs to try to maintain balance and stay NPOV. If there are too many things pro or con it puts the balance of the article out of wack.
Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you'd like. Davidpdx 12:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Calling Moyers "the father of negative political TV ads" is POV language, is inaccurate, and even if it were accurrate, has no business being in the first line of the article because it's not something Moyers is primarily known for. Tricityjdw's edit would have "advisor to Democrats, liberal activist, father of negative political TV ads" listed before "journalist" and "public commentator". That's like saying Mark Twain was an avid stamp collector, enjoyed blueberry pie, and also wrote some books. Further, the link you provide as a reference doesn't identify him as "the father of negative political TV ads" it merely states that he created negative ads to run against Goldwater. If this information can be verified, then it belongs under criticism, not in the lead. -- Osbojos 01:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
After some research I have found confirmation of Mr. Moyers birth name in his bios on the websites of both the LBJ Presidential Library and the Biography Channel as well as numerous less prestigious sources. I also found confirmation that he had his name legally changed later, only indicated the name Bill in the change. I could find no confirmation that his legal name change was William Daniel—however that does not mean that it was not changed to that. If a source can be found supporting that his legal name was changed to William Daniel, why not change the lead to: William Daniel Moyers, born Billy Don Moyers. If a source cannot be found for William Daniel, change the name to Bill Moyers, born Billy Don Moyers, since we know that he now goes by Bill Moyers and that his birth name was Billy Don Moyers. - JCarriker 11:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Does this really merit an entire section? A few people have written articles urging him to run that were published in small media outlets barely known outside of the progressive community, and I don't think Moyers has made any public comments even entertaining the idea. This perhaps bears mentioning, MAYBE even it's own section, but I think this is too much information and gives the article an adulatory tone. (For the record, I also think the criticism section has gone overboard). -- Osbojos 18:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Discoverthenetworks is not a reliable source. It lacks editorial oversight, and is not regularly cited or cooberated by other sources. I suggest an alternative source for any important information that came from discoverthenetworks be found. Thanks. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I found two different sources for the 'coup' comment; I hope you accept George Will and Ed Koch as reliable. Zsero 18:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
In the summer of 2002, Moyers was arrested and charged in Vermont with driving under the influence of alcohol. [1] He later pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of negligent driving and was fined $750, ordered to take a drunken driving course, and given a choice of paying $1,000 to an anti-drunk-driving group, or doing 200 hours of community service. His attorney indicated that Moyers would make the $1,000 donation. [2] [3]
I think that the above should be in the article. I've written it as concisely and neutrally as I could. I can't decide where to put it though, there is no notable criticism in RS sources that I can find, so the criticism section isn't really appropriate, and I don't think it deserves its own section. Any thoughts? - Crockspot 00:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Get it out of the Controversies section, please. Also it seems to be taking a jab at the guy for a DUI with no reasoning why the article goes into detail about it. Perhaps treat the item if it were someone you respected like - "In the summer of 2002, Moyers was charged with driving under the influence (of alcohol) in Vermont. He plead guilty to the lesser charge of negligent driving and was fined." Benjiboi 03:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Skopp, I don't understand your last two edits. I thought the discussion was to pare that down to a minimum, so I removed some of the factual data, and now you are adding in quotes... Also, the .10 reading may not be proper to include. He blew a .10 at the traffic stop (the legal limit is .08), but in Vermont, roadside tests are not admissible in court, so by the time they got back to the station for another test, he blew below the limit (don't remember the exact number), and that is the reason that the charges were reduced. You inserting that figure puts Moyers in the worst possible light, and seems to run counter to your previous comments. So I'm confused. I reverted. - Crockspot 12:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Indent reset. I must keep coming back to is this really anything worth much of a mention? Seems like it's not newsworthy except to three very local papers that might not exist anymore unless I'm missing something there. DUIs are pretty common and this didn't seem to be terribly life notable so why is it getting anything but a passing glance. Did he rally against drunk driving or hold someone else to the fire in his political or journalism career that make this stick out as hypocritical? There are dozens upon dozens of more notable events in Moyers life that seem much more deserving of effort than this. Benjiboi 23:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the minor mention of O'Reilly that I have modified should stay in the article. There are no ranting quotes, it's simple, straighforward, true, and verified by no less than four secondary references in mainstream news sources that are not O'Reilly himself or Fox News. I also added one sentence about the full page ad that Moyers took out to defend himself against an attack by O'Reilly (with source). If O'Reilly's opinions were truly non-notable, why would Moyers take such action? And why would several reliable sources reference various disputes between the two? I have added this same source to the mention of Moyers in the O'Reilly article. These two have been at each other for years, it's notable that they have disputes, and it can be mentioned properly without going into all the dirty details and rants. I have to wonder about the motivation behind editors who would want to exclude such well-sourced and well-known information. - Crockspot 19:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to look at the page by Eleemosynary. I guess what concerns me about the O'Reilly comments, here as with George Soros, is that he makes some very serious personal attacks on ideological opponents who he feels attack him as well. In the Soros article an administrator ruled that such comments cannot be included without a "strong consensus," and the article was protected to prevent their inclusion because a strong concensus did not exist. I think the same standard should apply here. Is there a strong consensus of editors to include this material?-- Samiharris 17:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The items probably should be in chronological order and the one having to do with him in the Johnson Whitehouse isn't clear. Benjiboi 03:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the B Goldberg quote, taken selectively from [3]. The editor User:Arnabdas needs to be careful about choosing sentences from sources to make a point, while deleting other sentences and completely ignoring opposing POV. Moreover, it is not encyclopedic that a GOP hack like Goldberg thinks that BM is so awfully and extremely liberal that it reminds him of a fundamentalist Christian. This is gossip and insult, not substantive or notable criticism. It's like me adding to the O'Reilly page that Moyers thinks he is paranoid and nuts. Skopp (Talk) 23:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please justify protecting this page? Only admins can edit this page because one guy keeps trying to insert baseless accusations and refuses to listen to reason? That seems a bit excessive. If any drastic action needed to be taken at all (and I don't think it did) wouldn't the answer be to block the problematic person/people from editing rather that to protect the page from all edits? -- Osbojos 00:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
First off, let me say loud and clear that I despise "criticism" sections in articles, particularly in BLPs, as their sheer existence is testimony of failed consensus building. They attract trolling, POV pushing, vandalism and whatnot and basically never improve an article. Criticism sections are the POV versions of Trivia sections. But that's about my own personal POV.
I believe that clearcut POV disputes like this one should be settled as quickly as possible. The problem may be that compromising between individual POVs may not do the job. NPOV cannot simply be achieved by balancing all POVs. So, everyone should suspend their judgment, and adopt objective axioms for a moment.
To sum up the dispute as I understand it: One "party" (of which there should be none) wants the Bill O'Reilly info in the article, the other "party" wants it out. Right?
Ok, well, here's my opinion:
— AldeBaer 16:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Arnabdas 16:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)O'Reilly has gone after PBS personality Bill Moyers. O'Reilly criticized Moyers for having no balance in his presentations. He also called Moyers dishonest for making disparaging remarks about O'Reilly to Rolling Stone and then later denying them when confronted by one of O'Reilly's producers
It seems the biggest beef users like Skopp et al have are these pseudo-intellectual (pseudo-intellectual because of alleging propaganda which not only is untrue with regards to this particular statement, but overall to anyone whom actually fairly watches his program without regurgitating what REAL propaganda sites like media matters or hate sites like moveon or daily kos promote) POV discussions about Bill O'Reilly.
This is not an issue about whether or not you may or may not like O'Reilly. It is a matter of pointing out Moyers' credibility as an honest journalist. There have been proven allegations that Moyers reports with a slant towards his POV.
As for the ridiculous comparison of O'Reilly to Hitler, we should point out that a tenet of fascism is to suppress any and all dissent against the authority. Apparantly, there are people here who don't want proven dissent against Moyers to be highlighted and personally attack those whom do dissent against Moyers so that the public won't be aware of Moyers' criticism. That seems more in line with fascism. Arnabdas 15:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
WATTERS: Why are you attacking Bill, now? MOYERS: I'm not attacking Bill. WATTERS: Well, didn't you give an interview where you said he was part of a slime machine and trying to discredit other journalists? MOYERS: I didn't say that. WATTERS: Yes, you did. You said that's to Rolling Stone. MOYERS: No, I didn't say that. (END VIDEO CLIP) Bill O'Reilly: To echo Jesse, yes, you did, Bill. Roll the tape. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MOYERS: The FOX News, the talk radio, The Weekly Standard have not only mongered for war along with the administration, not only embraced the administration's policies because they were "conservative", including going to war, but also mounted a slime machine to discredit any journalist who dared to stand against the official view of reality. (END CLIP) |
Now clearly:
An argument could be made that he was attacking O'Reilly by implication, but it's a weak argument, since Fox News employs many anchors and hundreds of reporters. So you have a reading comprehension problem, Arnabdas. Now please stop making it our problem too. Skopp 22:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Either your deception knows no bounds or you simly cannot read. Clearly later on in the transcript O'Reilly brings up the clip of Moyers smearing O'Reilly by alleging he spews venom:
MOYERS: If a journalist tried to tell the truth about the intelligence the Hannitys and the O'Reillys and the Limbaughs and the Mike Savages would come down on them and you know slander them, discredit them. So that good reporting lost its power to break through because of this, this avalanche of opposition and venom directed at them.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268302,00.html YOUR only problem is that you try to let your own ideology override your academic integrity. Arnabdas 15:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Just because the man is liberal, doesn't mean he has a liberal bias. Let's see... Moyers: ordained minister, professor in Christian ethics, best known for his respectful facilitation of interfaith and religious/secular dialogues, 3 lifetime achievement awards for journalistic integrity and investigative reporting, 30 Emmys and almost every other award known to jounalism, as well as a member of the Academy of Arts and Letters. JSTOR, an electronic database of academic journals, has 288 refs to him and his articles, books and shows. What an insignificant liberal whacko - though that whole Christian thing tends to hurt his liberal street cred with the godless socialists. On the other hand, O'Reilly is currently a commentator, not a journalist, best known for his self-professed sensationalism and factual inaccuracy. O'Reilly used to be a decent journalist (he did win two Local Emmys and one award from the Dallas Press Club early in his career - but that's about it). JSTOR has zero articles referring to O'Reilly or his work. BTW, "less sensationalistic" is a primary requirement for quality journalism.
Frankly, the O'Reilly material (contested as it is by Moyers) constitutes an extraordinary claim in a bio page of a living person. As such, per WP guidelines, it must have multiple high quality sources (as in peer-review journals or standard reference texts). If an editor can find one solid paragraph from a well-known peer-review journal (anything in a major journal database) that mentions this or any other treatment of Moyers' alleged bias, I will help them work it into the article and help defend its presence. I'm not saying it's not out there, but given the man's reputation, I'm not doing the leg work. Phyesalis 06:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Gerkinstock, I've started this discussion over on your talk page. User pages are appropriate places for this conversation. Article talk pages are not for debating the subject. Phyesalis ( talk) 05:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I came to this page looking for his education, degrees, etc. I'm surprised that it lacks the typical biographical information. Or is that too controversial? ;-) -- Mulp 19:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Why in the world is the image of Moyers one from forty years ago? He is known as a journalist -- has been for decades. Google him and journalism hits are what come up. What's going on here? If I knew how, I'd post a photo from his current show, BILL MOYERS JOURNAL... Fulana 00:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the prompt, informative reply! If I can figure out how to get a "kosher" photo and upload it, I will. Fulana 01:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe the criticism section has the tone or sound of an encyclopedia. It would appear that the only noteworthy thing about Moyers is his politial views. Of course my second statement is actually true from the standpoint of adults who would be doing a search for Moyers - if not for his criticism, would anyone know who he is at all? That said, I think Google is a better venue for locating that kind of info, and wiki should be more historical/biographical in my opinion. I would reduce the criticism section to links as well - it wouldn't (the wiki page) be nearly as controversial in that case, and the criticism would not appear to outsize the bio.
I just reverted the page to the Apr 8 version. An anonymous person had added "Moyers has lately been accused of fanatic liberalism as his independance has recently come into question." If this is true, fine, include it, but you need to back it up. Who made the accusation? Why? When? His independence from what has been called into question? Without any supporting evidence it just sounds like slander. The term "fanatic liberal" may have some NPOV problems as well... -- Osbojos 21:25, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
This page is linked to from June 5 as well as June 6, both of which list those days as his birthday. Does anyone know for sure which it is? I've seen it listed as both all over the Internet.
-- Gjking
He was born June 5, 1934. (By the way, the most famous June 5/6 confusion is, sadly, the assassination of RFK. He was shot on June 5 and died on June 6. When the assassination happened, Bill Moyers went to Bobby Kennedy's headquarters in NY or DC -- I'm not sure which -- and said, "I'll do anything -- make coffee, anything...")
What's the copyright status of the recently-added Bill Moyers image? The user who added the image has very few edits and may be unaware of the copyright policy. -- Osbojos 20:28, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The first external link, Marshall News Messenger - http://www.marshallnewsmessenger.com/ - does not work properly so I will remove it.
I object to the use of the term "left-wing" to describe Bill Moyers. He was born a Southern Baptist and is still, by all accounts, a devout and conservative Christian. He worked for Lyndon Johnson, who was a moderate to conservative Democrat, selected as VP to balance the liberal views of J. F. Kennedy. As Johnson's press secretary, Moyers took a lot of heat from liberals for the Vietnam war policy. As a television journalist, he has often explored issues from a populist point of view, but that does not make him "left-wing" in the usual sense of espousing larger, more centralized government. I think "progressive" would describe him more fairly. Let's keep polarizing terms like "left-wing" out of Wikipedia! --WLH
WLH, I agree with you re the term "liberal" having been turned into a pejorative (apparently for political reasons) which was why I added the qualification indicating it was so "by US standards". Politics aside, I would like to see Wikipedia carrying an international flavour and perspective - avoiding any national overlays. Because of its cultural/economic dominance this cccurs most frequently from a U.S. perspective.
cariboo 02:04, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This IP seems to keep editing the article with nonNPOV statements about Moyers' journalistic activities as well as adding lots of links to anti-moyer articles. I think the second is okay as Moyers is a somewhat controversial figure, but if articles are being linked there should be a balance between pro and anti Moyers opinion peices. Tombride 19:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just reverted a revert (a wikipedia first for me), and actually find myself in the awkward position of defending ip 24.130.117.205. I disagree with ip 67.40.0.28 that his last edit constituted vandalism. The Moyers quotes 24.130.117.205 provides seem accurate, and providing quotes where Moyers presents an admittedly "left-wing" perspective seems better than his previous edits, which consisted mostly of hearsay and name calling. I suggest that instead of deleting his comments someone provides a bit of balance by expanding on some of Moyers less controversial accomplishments. I'd be happy to do some of this myself, but I want to make sure there's a consensus that 24.130.117.205's most recent edit is appropriate and relatively npov. A problem I can see with my suggestion, however, is that this article could turn from focusing on Moyers to a lengthy series of attacks and defenses of Moyers' credibility. What do others think? -- Osbojos 21:03, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This is 24.130.117.205. There are links provided where Bill Moyers speaks for himself and the NOW link comes from his (and now David Brancaccio's) view of what the show offers its viewers. I don't see how providing exact quotes from Moyers' is in any way inappropriate. Nearly every conservative commentator has criticized Moyers for promoting his personal ideology at taxpayer expense, while railing against those on the Right who do so free of charge to the taxpayer. FAIR is as clearly a left-wing group as Accuracy in Media is a right-wing one. All the attendees at Take Back America were left of center. I certainly wouldn't erase any links providing pro-Moyers commentary. John Stossel's page includes a link to FAIR's criticism of him (FAIR only criticizes non-liberal journalists, as AIM only criticizes non-conservative ones), and he's far less conservative than Moyers is liberal. David Horowitz's page is filled with anti-Horowitz links, and don't intend to erase any of them. -- Cryptico 19 June 2005
Not a huge deal, but the article says Bill Moyers was Press Secretary from 1965–1967. The box at the bottom, though, as well as the White_House_Press_Secretary page have his term as 1965–1966. I don't know which is correct, but I thought I should bring it up.
Bill Moyers was press secretary from July 1965 to February 1967.
This page is typical of many other Wikipedia articles on liberal politicians and journalists. The old saying goes that the victors write the (revisionist) history, and this is precisely what is happening. The entry on Lyndon Johnson is enough to turn your stomach, and it, as well as this entry, is enough for me to conclude that Wikipedia is basically worthless as a source of unbiased historical information.
What the hell are you yapping about? Bill Moyers is a liberal activist who has tried to masquerade as an unbiased journalist for decades now, but there is quote after quote after quote that show him to be nothing more than a left-wing hack, no different from right-wingers he berates on a regular basis (except that those right-wingers are honest enough to call themselves conservatives, and they don't bilk the taxpayers to subsidize their shows). His alliance with FAIR, Al Franken, Eric Alterman, Take Back America and numerous other left-wing organizations is proof enough that he is no journalist. Name one quote or piece of information on this page that is untrue.
FAIR is clearly a "liberal" group; it describes itself as "progressive" on its website (a popular euphemism for liberal, if technically inaccurate) and produces liberal shows and writing to balance what it sees as a "conservative bias" in the mainstream media. FAIR does not come within striking distance of, say, Wikipedia's own NPOV policy. If I wrote articles from the viewpoint that FAIR produced media, then claimed to be objective, all my edits would get a "not-NPOV" tag. -- Xinoph 03:46, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
If progressive simply meant liberal, then the dictionary entry would say "see liberal". Or vice versa. Positively amazing that I can list entries from a dictionary and have it called spin. I applaud you. To put it another way, a square is a rectangle but a square is not a rectangle. We must understand potential differences even as we identify similarities. Overgeneralizing does not cut it.
Even if "progressives" and "liberals" unite on certain goals, making them politically similar or even approaching politically identical..... "liberal" means broadminded while "progressive" concerns itself with progress and new ideas. Did you even read my post?
I could be interested in the progress of my stock portfolio and new ideas concerning how to invest that stock portfolio but that in no way requires me to be broadminded in the sense that liberal indicates.
In practice, the two often coincide, but it is not specifically required by the definition of the words. I understand that the progressives you obviously refer to are probably in favor of liberal progress, etc..
My point before: if it says progressive, just say progressive. If their definition of progress and new ideas are open-minded in nature, then you could call them progressive AND liberal. We have to be careful with words, as evidenced with this whole conversation.
You perhaps assumed that I was saying they are *completely* different. That is not so, if you read what I typed. Going too far the other way is incorrect as well.
( Antelope In Search Of Truth 22:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC))
Political commentary was rolled into criticism, which was a mistake, as it was done. (When I say the criticism follows the man's record, I mean: "lay out his record first, then the criticism".)
Political commentary of Bill Moyers was merely collected and cited, in of itself, and then dumped into the criticism section. The commentary in question, while potentially relevant to criticism, was not even cited/referred to by the critics and their criticism listed in the Criticism section.
Thus, a Wikipedian saw fit to represent commentary of Bill Moyers as criticism of the man. Very sloppy.
Last time I checked, Wikipedians are not supposed to formally author criticism sections ( WP:NOR). They are to supply content representing criticism other critics have.
As it is, the criticism content (that is, the words of a critic) that was submitted, doesn't even have a source! The source that was listed did not have the content in question within it. So while a Criticism section may have relevance, leaving the little bit there that I did was being kind. The section has merit, it just needs to be expanded.
( Antelope In Search Of Truth 22:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC))
"Some critics" is incomplete. If there are critics, simply list them when you list the criticism. Saying "some critics" think "x" is not responsible when you are listing criticism of a single critic.
If more than one critic agree, fine...... there should be a subsection within criticism for the Issue being Criticized and then those criticisms can be listed under that subsection.
But when you say some critics and deliver only one or are unclear about who the actual critic(s) is/are, that is inaccurate.
( Antelope In Search Of Truth 22:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC))
"You flat out lie and say that "progressive" and "liberal" have two different meanings,"
I already answered this above at the end of the FAIR discussion [ [1]]: "I'll grant you that progressives appear to be liberal, but not all liberals appear to be specifically focused on economic, and environmental justice and sustainability." Keyword there = "specifically". I was NOT saying they are completely different (which we agree, would be inaccurate), but that they have some differences. It seems like it's all black and white with you. I hope this is not the case.
By way of example, take trees. There are many different kinds of trees. But to say, "a tree is a tree is a tree" is not the whole story. Sure, there are common characteristics, but Weeping Willows have differences from Fir Trees, even as they share commonalities. It is the specific focus of progressives, that is the difference, however small, in this case. Even if, in reality, this difference is stated, not actual, the fact that they have stated a specific focus different from other liberals, at the very least, constitutes a difference.
If we applied your logic to "the right", someone could then conclude that all Republicans = Religious right = Log Cabin Republicans. It's all the same. And yet if you click on the links, there are obvious differences that can be noted.
But fear not! If "progressive" and "liberal" really are the same, then the record regarding what they advocate, will show this. It is not our job to show this by slanting the language. By glossing over all of it and declaring that, "whatever they say, progressive is liberal", etc., you appear to be saying, "liberals and progressives advocate the exact same things, even if they appear to say otherwise". But Wikipedia is in the business of recording information. If you are purposefully ignoring information just because you don't think it is true, this renders you un-objective and therefore, prone to breaking WP:NPOV.
( Antelope In Search Of Truth 19:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC))
Gerkinstock, please do not revert Antelope In Search Of Truth's edits until consensus has been agreed and issues have been addressed. Reasoning that Antelope In Search Of Truth "must work for Bill Moyer" is not justification for removing edits, please assume Assume good faith and continue mediation process-- Zleitzen 16:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not convinced that your comments above such as "What is wrong with you, anyway?" and "Why don't go buy some cookies and edit Barney's page, or maybe Kermit the Frog's page" are attempts to address the edits or reach consensus. I would suggest that you keep to discussing the particular edits here. Breaching Wikipedia Etiquette WP:WQT will only lead to a block or ban. -- Zleitzen 16:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I would recommend that both editors involved in this conflict temporarily avoid editing or reverting the article while there is a mediation / request for comment in process. -- Zleitzen 18:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Gerkinstock's recently added "citations needed" links are inappropriate and motivated purely out of anger that he's being asked to find citations for the more contentious assertions in the criticism section. For uncontroversial common knowledge, citations are unnecessary, see WP:CITE#When_to_cite_sources -- Osbojos 00:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any issues with the article in it's present state, Gerkinstock? -- Zleitzen 15:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is good overall. I've taken some time to read over the article and the talk page. It sounds like the disagreement is over the criticism section of the article.
There has been a lot of discussion as to what is "liberal" what is "progressive" etc. I think that conversation is not helpful. Neither of you are going to agree on this. You can sit and argue about that until your both blue in the face, but I don't think it will get you anywhere.
I'm going to put out there right now what my bias is, which I am a liberal. I won't hide it. But at the same time I have written many articles on conservative politicans in Oregon. Your more the welcome to look at my user page and scroll down and look at the list of articles I've worked on. I may not agree with what some of these people say, but I try my best to keep the article NPOV.
That said, I can see two problems with the criticism section.
1) This line needs to be changed slightly to be more objective:
"Moyers' frequent criticism of conservatives and conservatism has led conservative critics to label him a liberal commentator rather than an objective journalist."
Instead I propose that it read, "Moyers' frequent criticism of conservative and conservatism has led conservative critics such as Brent Bozell to label him a liberal commentator rather then an objective journalist." (Note: Brent Bozell has an article so his name would be linked. Also the link to the article Mr. Bozell wrote should be in the notes section as well.)
2) This line needs something added to make it more apparent why it is in the article:
"He has also been involved with the group Take Back America, an organization that seeks to help elect liberal political candidates." (Note: the link to Take Back America should lead to an internal article with in Wikipedia, not an external website. If you want the website linked, then it should be added to the "External Links" section.)
I think it also need to be brought up how he is linked to Take Back America. This is important for the reader to understand the possible conflict of interest.
Lastly, if there is something that you would like to add then lets look at it and analyze why it should be added to the article. Remember, the article needs to try to maintain balance and stay NPOV. If there are too many things pro or con it puts the balance of the article out of wack.
Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you'd like. Davidpdx 12:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Calling Moyers "the father of negative political TV ads" is POV language, is inaccurate, and even if it were accurrate, has no business being in the first line of the article because it's not something Moyers is primarily known for. Tricityjdw's edit would have "advisor to Democrats, liberal activist, father of negative political TV ads" listed before "journalist" and "public commentator". That's like saying Mark Twain was an avid stamp collector, enjoyed blueberry pie, and also wrote some books. Further, the link you provide as a reference doesn't identify him as "the father of negative political TV ads" it merely states that he created negative ads to run against Goldwater. If this information can be verified, then it belongs under criticism, not in the lead. -- Osbojos 01:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
After some research I have found confirmation of Mr. Moyers birth name in his bios on the websites of both the LBJ Presidential Library and the Biography Channel as well as numerous less prestigious sources. I also found confirmation that he had his name legally changed later, only indicated the name Bill in the change. I could find no confirmation that his legal name change was William Daniel—however that does not mean that it was not changed to that. If a source can be found supporting that his legal name was changed to William Daniel, why not change the lead to: William Daniel Moyers, born Billy Don Moyers. If a source cannot be found for William Daniel, change the name to Bill Moyers, born Billy Don Moyers, since we know that he now goes by Bill Moyers and that his birth name was Billy Don Moyers. - JCarriker 11:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Does this really merit an entire section? A few people have written articles urging him to run that were published in small media outlets barely known outside of the progressive community, and I don't think Moyers has made any public comments even entertaining the idea. This perhaps bears mentioning, MAYBE even it's own section, but I think this is too much information and gives the article an adulatory tone. (For the record, I also think the criticism section has gone overboard). -- Osbojos 18:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Discoverthenetworks is not a reliable source. It lacks editorial oversight, and is not regularly cited or cooberated by other sources. I suggest an alternative source for any important information that came from discoverthenetworks be found. Thanks. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I found two different sources for the 'coup' comment; I hope you accept George Will and Ed Koch as reliable. Zsero 18:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
In the summer of 2002, Moyers was arrested and charged in Vermont with driving under the influence of alcohol. [1] He later pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of negligent driving and was fined $750, ordered to take a drunken driving course, and given a choice of paying $1,000 to an anti-drunk-driving group, or doing 200 hours of community service. His attorney indicated that Moyers would make the $1,000 donation. [2] [3]
I think that the above should be in the article. I've written it as concisely and neutrally as I could. I can't decide where to put it though, there is no notable criticism in RS sources that I can find, so the criticism section isn't really appropriate, and I don't think it deserves its own section. Any thoughts? - Crockspot 00:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Get it out of the Controversies section, please. Also it seems to be taking a jab at the guy for a DUI with no reasoning why the article goes into detail about it. Perhaps treat the item if it were someone you respected like - "In the summer of 2002, Moyers was charged with driving under the influence (of alcohol) in Vermont. He plead guilty to the lesser charge of negligent driving and was fined." Benjiboi 03:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Skopp, I don't understand your last two edits. I thought the discussion was to pare that down to a minimum, so I removed some of the factual data, and now you are adding in quotes... Also, the .10 reading may not be proper to include. He blew a .10 at the traffic stop (the legal limit is .08), but in Vermont, roadside tests are not admissible in court, so by the time they got back to the station for another test, he blew below the limit (don't remember the exact number), and that is the reason that the charges were reduced. You inserting that figure puts Moyers in the worst possible light, and seems to run counter to your previous comments. So I'm confused. I reverted. - Crockspot 12:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Indent reset. I must keep coming back to is this really anything worth much of a mention? Seems like it's not newsworthy except to three very local papers that might not exist anymore unless I'm missing something there. DUIs are pretty common and this didn't seem to be terribly life notable so why is it getting anything but a passing glance. Did he rally against drunk driving or hold someone else to the fire in his political or journalism career that make this stick out as hypocritical? There are dozens upon dozens of more notable events in Moyers life that seem much more deserving of effort than this. Benjiboi 23:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the minor mention of O'Reilly that I have modified should stay in the article. There are no ranting quotes, it's simple, straighforward, true, and verified by no less than four secondary references in mainstream news sources that are not O'Reilly himself or Fox News. I also added one sentence about the full page ad that Moyers took out to defend himself against an attack by O'Reilly (with source). If O'Reilly's opinions were truly non-notable, why would Moyers take such action? And why would several reliable sources reference various disputes between the two? I have added this same source to the mention of Moyers in the O'Reilly article. These two have been at each other for years, it's notable that they have disputes, and it can be mentioned properly without going into all the dirty details and rants. I have to wonder about the motivation behind editors who would want to exclude such well-sourced and well-known information. - Crockspot 19:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to look at the page by Eleemosynary. I guess what concerns me about the O'Reilly comments, here as with George Soros, is that he makes some very serious personal attacks on ideological opponents who he feels attack him as well. In the Soros article an administrator ruled that such comments cannot be included without a "strong consensus," and the article was protected to prevent their inclusion because a strong concensus did not exist. I think the same standard should apply here. Is there a strong consensus of editors to include this material?-- Samiharris 17:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The items probably should be in chronological order and the one having to do with him in the Johnson Whitehouse isn't clear. Benjiboi 03:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the B Goldberg quote, taken selectively from [3]. The editor User:Arnabdas needs to be careful about choosing sentences from sources to make a point, while deleting other sentences and completely ignoring opposing POV. Moreover, it is not encyclopedic that a GOP hack like Goldberg thinks that BM is so awfully and extremely liberal that it reminds him of a fundamentalist Christian. This is gossip and insult, not substantive or notable criticism. It's like me adding to the O'Reilly page that Moyers thinks he is paranoid and nuts. Skopp (Talk) 23:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please justify protecting this page? Only admins can edit this page because one guy keeps trying to insert baseless accusations and refuses to listen to reason? That seems a bit excessive. If any drastic action needed to be taken at all (and I don't think it did) wouldn't the answer be to block the problematic person/people from editing rather that to protect the page from all edits? -- Osbojos 00:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
First off, let me say loud and clear that I despise "criticism" sections in articles, particularly in BLPs, as their sheer existence is testimony of failed consensus building. They attract trolling, POV pushing, vandalism and whatnot and basically never improve an article. Criticism sections are the POV versions of Trivia sections. But that's about my own personal POV.
I believe that clearcut POV disputes like this one should be settled as quickly as possible. The problem may be that compromising between individual POVs may not do the job. NPOV cannot simply be achieved by balancing all POVs. So, everyone should suspend their judgment, and adopt objective axioms for a moment.
To sum up the dispute as I understand it: One "party" (of which there should be none) wants the Bill O'Reilly info in the article, the other "party" wants it out. Right?
Ok, well, here's my opinion:
— AldeBaer 16:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Arnabdas 16:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)O'Reilly has gone after PBS personality Bill Moyers. O'Reilly criticized Moyers for having no balance in his presentations. He also called Moyers dishonest for making disparaging remarks about O'Reilly to Rolling Stone and then later denying them when confronted by one of O'Reilly's producers
It seems the biggest beef users like Skopp et al have are these pseudo-intellectual (pseudo-intellectual because of alleging propaganda which not only is untrue with regards to this particular statement, but overall to anyone whom actually fairly watches his program without regurgitating what REAL propaganda sites like media matters or hate sites like moveon or daily kos promote) POV discussions about Bill O'Reilly.
This is not an issue about whether or not you may or may not like O'Reilly. It is a matter of pointing out Moyers' credibility as an honest journalist. There have been proven allegations that Moyers reports with a slant towards his POV.
As for the ridiculous comparison of O'Reilly to Hitler, we should point out that a tenet of fascism is to suppress any and all dissent against the authority. Apparantly, there are people here who don't want proven dissent against Moyers to be highlighted and personally attack those whom do dissent against Moyers so that the public won't be aware of Moyers' criticism. That seems more in line with fascism. Arnabdas 15:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
WATTERS: Why are you attacking Bill, now? MOYERS: I'm not attacking Bill. WATTERS: Well, didn't you give an interview where you said he was part of a slime machine and trying to discredit other journalists? MOYERS: I didn't say that. WATTERS: Yes, you did. You said that's to Rolling Stone. MOYERS: No, I didn't say that. (END VIDEO CLIP) Bill O'Reilly: To echo Jesse, yes, you did, Bill. Roll the tape. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MOYERS: The FOX News, the talk radio, The Weekly Standard have not only mongered for war along with the administration, not only embraced the administration's policies because they were "conservative", including going to war, but also mounted a slime machine to discredit any journalist who dared to stand against the official view of reality. (END CLIP) |
Now clearly:
An argument could be made that he was attacking O'Reilly by implication, but it's a weak argument, since Fox News employs many anchors and hundreds of reporters. So you have a reading comprehension problem, Arnabdas. Now please stop making it our problem too. Skopp 22:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Either your deception knows no bounds or you simly cannot read. Clearly later on in the transcript O'Reilly brings up the clip of Moyers smearing O'Reilly by alleging he spews venom:
MOYERS: If a journalist tried to tell the truth about the intelligence the Hannitys and the O'Reillys and the Limbaughs and the Mike Savages would come down on them and you know slander them, discredit them. So that good reporting lost its power to break through because of this, this avalanche of opposition and venom directed at them.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268302,00.html YOUR only problem is that you try to let your own ideology override your academic integrity. Arnabdas 15:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Just because the man is liberal, doesn't mean he has a liberal bias. Let's see... Moyers: ordained minister, professor in Christian ethics, best known for his respectful facilitation of interfaith and religious/secular dialogues, 3 lifetime achievement awards for journalistic integrity and investigative reporting, 30 Emmys and almost every other award known to jounalism, as well as a member of the Academy of Arts and Letters. JSTOR, an electronic database of academic journals, has 288 refs to him and his articles, books and shows. What an insignificant liberal whacko - though that whole Christian thing tends to hurt his liberal street cred with the godless socialists. On the other hand, O'Reilly is currently a commentator, not a journalist, best known for his self-professed sensationalism and factual inaccuracy. O'Reilly used to be a decent journalist (he did win two Local Emmys and one award from the Dallas Press Club early in his career - but that's about it). JSTOR has zero articles referring to O'Reilly or his work. BTW, "less sensationalistic" is a primary requirement for quality journalism.
Frankly, the O'Reilly material (contested as it is by Moyers) constitutes an extraordinary claim in a bio page of a living person. As such, per WP guidelines, it must have multiple high quality sources (as in peer-review journals or standard reference texts). If an editor can find one solid paragraph from a well-known peer-review journal (anything in a major journal database) that mentions this or any other treatment of Moyers' alleged bias, I will help them work it into the article and help defend its presence. I'm not saying it's not out there, but given the man's reputation, I'm not doing the leg work. Phyesalis 06:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Gerkinstock, I've started this discussion over on your talk page. User pages are appropriate places for this conversation. Article talk pages are not for debating the subject. Phyesalis ( talk) 05:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)