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I want to take this article to FA, and I believe that the inclusion of the material about "Plavsic stepping over a body to kiss Arkan" needs to be resolved by the community in order to progress the article. I have formulated a RfC for that purpose, and want to give regular contributors to this article an opportunity to tweak it before I lodge the RfC. This is the formulation as it stands:
RfC: Should this article make reference to a photograph that reportedly shows the Bosnian Serb politician Biljana Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian to kiss the Serb paramilitary leader Željko Ražnatović (aka Arkan)? The current version of the article makes reference to a photograph in the following terms: "A photograph, described as "widely-circulated" and "notorious", reportedly shows Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian during the kiss." This material is sourced to an online BBC report and a journal article, which itself cites another news source. The kiss between Plavšić and Arkan is not at issue here, there are many reliable sources that mention it, and it has been accepted as an agreed fact in several prosecutions at International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The question is over whether or not a photograph showing this detail exists, and whether or not it is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary sources. Plavšić is still alive, so WP:BLP obviously applies here.
Thoughts? Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 13:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Here is a summary of the sources Potočnik has presented:
Here are some of the sources that make no mention of her stepping over corpse(s).
The story is the invention of Izetbegović ally and Young Muslim Ešref Čampara, from his book semi-fictional book Human rights throughout history and today (2000; Vijeće Kongresa bošnjačkih intelektualaca). On page 21, he mentions how Plavsic steps over a corpse "to kiss the Avenger", Arkan. This is where Western journalists got the idea. Investigative reporter Miroslav Lazanski, writing for Politika, explicitly says such a photo doesn't exist. See, BILJANA, GRAĐANIN SRBIJE (21 March 2009):
Translation:
I would suggest posting an RfC notice on the following Noticeboards to get editors to comment; the Biographies of Living People Noticeboard, the Reliable Sources Noticeboard and possibly the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard. If things get heated, aggressive or otherwise uncivil, perhaps a notice on the Admin Noticeboard with a request for moderation of comments. A notice should also be placed on the related WikiProjects listed above.
As for the ongoing dispute over sourcing; put them into a table. 4 columns by however many sources are used. Column titles would possibly be "Kissed over body/bodies"; "Quote (plus sentence on either side)"; "Kissed but no bodies (lack of mention/outright disputed)"; Quote (plus sentence on either side)
It may also be best to place a caveat warning for users to do a bit of fact-checking WP:Before placing a comment either way. Hope this helps with the RfC formatting. If you want help with setting up the table, just give me a {{ user}} ping. Cheers, Drcrazy102 ( talk) 23:08, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
I'll keep adding to this, but won't complain if other editors would also add info they dug up.
Kissed over body/bodies | Quote | Kissed but no bodies | Quote |
---|---|---|---|
Biljana Plavsic: Serbian Iron Lady published by BBC (2003) | The self-styled "Serbian Iron Lady" once defended the purge of Bosnian non-Serbs as "a natural phenomenon" not a war crime. In 1992, a widely-circulated photographed showed her stepping over the body of a dead Muslim civilian to kiss the notorious Serb warlord Zeljko Raznjatovic, known as Arkan. But a decade later, she pleaded guilty to crimes against humanity, and apologised to "all the innocent victims of the Bosnian war - Muslims, Croats and Serbs alike". |
Gojko Beric (in snippet view) on p. 216 of Letters to the Celestial Serbs published by Saqi Books (2002) | The Bosniaks will always remember her for the kisses she showered on Željko Ražnatović Arkan after the massacre and "liberation" of Bijeljina, where the streets were still littered with the corpses of civilians who had just been killed |
Slavenka Drakulić in " The false repentance of Biljana Plavsic" published by Eurozine (2009) |
|
Janine di Giovanni on p. 253 of Madness Visible: A Memoir of War published by A&C Black (2012) | During the trial of Dusko Tadic, one of the Bosnian Serbs convicted by The Hague in 1998, the prosecution showed footage of Plavsic congratulating and kissing Arkan after the massacre of Muslims in eastern Bosnia. |
Jelena Subotić in The Cruelty of False Remorse: Biljana Plavšić at the Hague published by BRILL (2012) | Plavšić is also the star of a notorious photograph taken during the first days of the conflict in Bijeljina, in which she is shown stepping over the body of a dead Bosniac civilian to kiss one of the most brutal Serbian warlords Željko Ražnatović Arkan (Glauber 2002).It is this ‘lady’ who stood accused of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity on front of the Hague court. |
Laura Silber and Allan Little on p. 225 of The Death of Yugoslavia published by Penguin (1996) | Plavšić didn't hide her own interpretation of events. She greeted Arkan with a kiss. |
Bill Glauber in Sentence hearings start for `Iron Lady of Balkans' published by Chicago Tribune (2002) | She once claimed that "there are 12 million Serbs, and even if 6 million perish on the field of battle, there will still be 6million to reap the fruits of the struggle." She also was photographed stepping over the body of a Muslim to plant a kiss on the face of Serbian warlord Zeljko Raznjatovic, known as Arkan.Later she came to be embraced by the United States as the Americans sought a solution to the conflict. |
Judith Armatta on p. 234 of Twilight of Impunity: The War Crimes Trial of Slobodan Milosevic published by Duke University Press (2010) | Bijeljina was the beginning of a campaign of ethnic cleansing, terror, and genocide that swept across Bosnia and lasted four years. For his success in ridding Bijeljina of its non-Serb population Arkan received a kiss, recorded on camera, from the RS presidency member Biljana Plavšić. |
Daniel Uggelberg Goldberg inn Plavsic retracts war-crimes confession published by Bosnian Institute (2009) | She has been accused of playing a role in the massacre at Srebrenica in 1995, where at least 8,000 Muslims were killed. In a photograph presented as evidence at the Hague tribunal, she is seen stepping over a dead body to greet notorious Serbian warlord Zeljko 'Arkan' Raznatovic with a kiss. |
Kemal Kurspahić on p. 118 of As Long As Sarajevo Exists published by Pamphleteer's Press (1997) | On that day in Bijeljina, when the cameras were recording the kiss Ms. Plavsic bestowed upon the notorious war criminal Zeljko Raznatovic-Arkan in the presence of high-ranking JNA officers, Vlado Mrkić was taken away for questioning by Arkan's men. |
Nancy Amoury Combs in Prosecutor v. Plavšić. Case No. IT-00-39&40/1-S published in the American Journal of International Law by the American Society of International Law (October 2003) | Reference 2. "A notorious photograph taken during the first days of the conflict showed Plavsic stepping over the body of a dead Muslim civilian to kiss the murderous Serbian warlord Zeljko Raznjatovic, better known as Arkan, greeting him as a patriot." |
Central Intelligence Agency, Office of Russian and European Analysis Reference 85. p. 164 (2003) | In one of the Bosnian Presidency's last official acts before the government collapsed, Izetbegovic sent a joint delegation (including Fikret Abdic, a Muslim; Jerko Doko, a Croat; and Biljana Plavsic, a Serb) to investigate what had happened in Bijeljina. Predictably, the inquiry went nowhere. The most memorable aspect of the "investigation" occurred when the future president of the Republika Srpska, Biljana Plavsic, first encountered Arkan after the Bijeljina takeover. She greeted him with a kiss. |
Ian Traynor in Leading Bosnian Serb war criminal released from Swedish prison published by The Guardian (2009) | Wearing a fur coat and blowing kisses to the crowds gathered to greet her, Plavsic arrived in the Serbian capital today, accompanied by the Bosnian Serb prime minister, Milorad Dodik. Plavsic, an extreme Serbian nationalist who was notoriously photographed embracing the late warlord Arkan alongside dead Bosnian Muslims at the beginning of the war, reached a plea bargain with prosecutors in The Hague and received an 11-year sentence in 2003. She had faced eight charges, including two of genocide. |
Vidosav Stevanovic and Trude Johansson on p. 100 of Milosevic: The People's Tyrant published by I.B. Tauris (2004) | After Arkan had cleansed Bijeljina of Muslims, Biljana Plavsic kissed him in front of cameras. |
Maggie O'Kane in Court comes of age with her surrender published by The Guardian (12 January 2001) | It is known that she kept bad company for most of 90s. Infamously, she was photographed stepping over the body of an executed Muslim in the town of Bijlena in April 1992, to kiss Arkan, Serbia's most brutal paramilitary leader.She told reporters: "I exchange kisses only with heroes." |
Prosecutor v. Momčilo Krajišnik (Trial Judgment) from the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), 27 September 2006 | Plavšić did not persist with her request, and repeatedly praised the good job Arkan had done in saving the local Serb population from the threat of the Muslims. 682 When the group returned to the municipality building, Plavšić publicly thanked and kissed Arkan.This scene was met by shouts of approval from the local SDS members present. 683 |
War criminal freed after six years' jail published by Sydney Morning Herald (2009) | I'm happy to be here … but, after nine years in prison, I don't know what will happen, she said.Ms Plavsic, an extreme Serbian nationalist who was notoriously photographed embracing the late warlord Arkan alongside dead Bosnian Muslims at the beginning of the war, reached a plea bargain with prosecutors in The Hague and received an 11-year sentence in 2003. She voluntarily surrendered to the tribunal in 2001 and remained in custody. |
Carole Rogel on p. 136 of The Breakup of Yugoslavia and its Aftermath (2004) | Arkan's handiwork was also appreciated by the Bosnian Serb authorities–Biljana Plavsic, Radovan Karadzic's sidekick and president of the Serb Republic of Bosnia since the summer of 1996, greeted Arkan with a big kiss after his 1992 exploits in Zvornik (sic). |
Liane Martindale in Lessons from the Former Yugoslavia in InterMarium (East Central European Center Journal) published by Columbia University (2003) | Her explanation that egregious crimes had been motivated by Serbs’ “blinding fear,” which led to an “obsession” that they would “never again become victims,” as they had in World War II, had little resonance in non-Serb quarters.111 Few can forget the woman, who was once shown on local TV, stepping over a Bosniak corpse to kiss and congratulate the Serbian warlord Zeljko Raznjatovic, known as, Arkan.His notorious paramilitary gang had just taken the Eastern Bosnian town of Bijeljina by force in April of 1992 and purged it of non-Serbs. |
Institute for War & Peace Reporting (Suljagic 2005) | Inside, they found several hundred Bosnian Muslims who had sought refuge from the Serbian paramilitaries who controlled the town. When the delegation met Arkan in front of the municipal offices in Bijeljina, Biljana Plavsic kissed him on the cheek."She called him 'my child'," said Omeragic. |
Slavenka Drakulic in They Would Never Hurt A Fly: War Criminals on Trial in The Hague published by Hachette (2013) | It was terrible to think that she, as one of the formal heads of the secret police of Republika Srpska, as well as the one of the military commanders must have been aware of the starvation, torture and killing of Muslim prisons in the appalling concentration camps of Omarska, Keraterm and Manjaca. Another photograph of her from the war shows her kissing the notorious criminal Željko Ražnatovi Arkan hours after his Serbian paramilitary troops had entered Bijeljina and killed forty-eight people. The corpses were still lying in the streets – indeed, she had to step over one body in order to throw her arms around Arkan's neck, kiss him and congratulate him on the successful elimination of the 'genetic mistake'. When she heard that she had been indicted, she immediately surrendered herself to the Tribunal in January 2001, firmly believe that she had fulfilled her duty in defending her people and therefore could not be guilty of genocide, crimes against humanity, violations of the laws and customs of war and breaches of the Geneva Convention, with which she was charged by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. |
The Seattle Times "Karadzic Gives Power To Hard-Line, Notorious `Serb Empress' -- He Reneges On Quitting, Makes Extremist His Agent" (1996) | She is well-remembered for walking hand in hand with a Serb paramilitary leader, Zeljko Raznatovic, better known as the notorious Arkan, during his 1992 seizure of Bijeljina, a northeastern Bosnian town that became a symbol of Serb atrocities. In front of cameras, a euphoric Plavsic kissed Arkan on the cheek. He later named her "the Serb empress" and gave her his self-styled "Obilic" medal for bravery. |
Carol S. Lilly and Jill A. Irvine in Leading the Nation: Extreme Right Women Leaders Among the Serbs of Women of the Right: Comparisons and Interplay Across Borders published by Penn State Press (2012) | Plavsic publicly lauded paramilitary leaders who carried out ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina. One well-known photo of Plavsic in 1992 shows her stepping over the body of a dead Muslim soldier to kiss Željko Ražnjatovic ́ Arkan, the notorious Serbian war criminal whose paramilitary soldiers were known to be responsible for some of the worst atrocities committed throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.As she planted the kiss on his cheek, Plavsic declared Arkan to be "a real Serbian hero. He is a real Serb. We need men like him." |
The Independent "Foreign Office to welcome Serbian 'Nazi'" (1997) | They remember, as Mr Cook's officials apparently do not, how in April 1992 the Serb paramilitary boss Zeljko Raznjatovic "Arkan" stormed the small, mostly Muslim town of Bijeljina in north-east Bosnia, butchering many of the inhabitants, and how Mrs Plavsic rushed to the town and - after inspecting Arkan's grisly handywork - gave him a rapturous kiss. |
Jonathan H. Choi in Early Release in International Criminal Law published in Yale Law Journal (2014) | The Prosecutor alleged that Plavšić had masterminded a policy of racial extermination and persecution as a member of the three-person Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina.5 She had enthusiastically endorsed ethnic cleansing of Muslims and Croats, and achieved global notoriety after a 1992 photograph showed her greeting fellow war criminal Željko Ražnatović with a kiss over the dead body of a Muslim civilian.6 Plavšić garnered further fame by surrendering to the Tribunal shortly after her indictment and pleading guilty in 2002. |
The Moscow Times "West Finds Peculiar Ally In Former Hawk Plavsic" (1997) | She shocked the world in 1992 when she publicly kissed Arkan, a Serbian fighter whose troops are suspected of atrocities against Moslems. |
Hans-Jörg Albrecht in Punishment in Political Transitions: Comparing Global Experiences published by Max Planck Society (2015) | It had been alleged that Plavšić had masterminded a policy of racial extermination and persecution in Bosnia. She had enthusiastically endorsed ethnic cleansing of Muslims and Croats, and achieved global notoriety after a 1992 photograph showed her greeting fellow war criminal Ražnatović with a kiss over the dead body of a Muslim civilian. |
The New York Times "Ex-Bosnian Serb Chief Is Said to Surrender" (2001) | Early in the war, which lasted from 1992 to 1995, Ms. Plavsic was photographed kissing a notorious paramilitary leader, Zeljko Raznatovic, better known as Arkan, after his forces seized the Bosnian town of Bijeljina, slaughtering and expelling its Muslim inhabitants. |
Ok, so I don't know who put in all/most/some of the "Kissed but no bodies"'s sources but I want them listed five minutes ago, ok? Good to hear. We will be needing a source and link for the following;
Find these sources, post them up, give me a quote and we can keep going ... or ... I cull the sources that are a) not referenced and/or b) not quoted. They've been up for a few days now, there is no excuse. I will give a 24-48 hours limit (depending on my memory) before I remove the "sources". Pinging @
Peacemaker67,
Potočnik, and
23 editor: for timely responses and action. If the quotes were removed, if the source link was removed, put them back up if they support the column header or remove them.
Thanks again to Peacemaker67 for putting in the time and effort to create the table, now we just need to keep going at it, then we can post up an RfC and settle this. Cheers,
Drcrazy102 (
talk)
03:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
RfC: Should this article make reference to a photograph that reportedly shows the Bosnian Serb politician Biljana Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian to kiss the Serb paramilitary leader Željko Ražnatović (aka Arkan)?
The current version of the article makes reference to a photograph in the following terms: "A photograph, described as 'widely-circulated' and 'notorious', reportedly shows Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian during the kiss." This material is sourced to an online BBC report and a journal article, which itself cites another news source.
To be clear: the kiss between Plavšić and Arkan is not at issue here, there are many reliable sources that mention it, and it has been accepted as an agreed fact in several prosecutions at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The question is over whether or not a photograph showing Plavsic stepping over a dead body to kiss Arkan exists, and whether or not it is an exceptional claim requiring exceptional sources. Plavšić is still alive, so WP:BLP also applies here.
A list of sources both mentioning and not mentioning Plavsic stepping over a dead body, is provided below for easy perusal though respondents are asked to find more sources if possible.(Minor copy-edit and additional sentence)
If this proposal statement is acceptable, then I suppose we can get the RfC started. FWIW I can't find fault and copy-edited for clarity rather than because of any errors or non-neutrality. (BTW Peace, I was double checking your quotes as you went, you did better than I did) Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 06:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Alright, how's this for the text of the RfC, after which the table will appear:
RfC: Should this article make reference to the Bosnian Serb politician
Biljana Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead
Bosniak to kiss the Serb paramilitary leader
Željko Ražnatović (aka Arkan)?
The
current version of the article makes reference to a photograph in the following terms: "A photograph, described as "widely-circulated" and "notorious", reportedly shows Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian during the kiss." The kiss between Plavšić and Arkan is not at issue here, there are many reliable sources that mention it, and it has been accepted as an agreed fact in several prosecutions at International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The question is whether "Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak", or words to that effect, should be mentioned in the article, significant number of sources mention mention this detail while a significant number of sources do not'. If you consider it should be mentioned in the article, please say how it should be mentioned in the article. Plavšić is still alive, so
WP:BLP obviously applies. The table below lists sources/quotes that mention the "Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak" detail in some form, as well as sources/quotes that don't mention that detail regarding "the kiss". This is a bit of a contentious and complex RfC, so it would be appreciated if interested editors would do a bit of fact-checking/reading before placing a comment either way. Thanks,
Peacemaker67 (
crack... thump)
09:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
New version (pinging
23 editor and
Drcrazy102 for comment too):
RfC: Should this article make reference to the Bosnian Serb politician
Biljana Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead
Bosniak to kiss the Serb paramilitary leader
Željko Ražnatović (aka Arkan)?
The
current version of the article makes reference to a photograph in the following terms: "A photograph, described as "widely-circulated" and "notorious", reportedly shows Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian during the kiss." The kiss between Plavšić and Arkan is not at issue here, there are many reliable sources that mention it, and it has been accepted as an agreed fact in several prosecutions at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The question of this RfC is whether Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak, or words to that effect, should be mentioned in the article, given that a significant number of sources mention this detail while a significant number of sources do not. If you consider it should be mentioned in the article, please indicate what wording you consider should be used. Plavšić is still alive, so
WP:BLP obviously applies. The table below lists sources/quotes that mention the "Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak to kiss Arkan" detail in some form, as well as a list of sources/quotes that don't mention any dead body during "the kiss". This is a bit of a contentious and complex RfC, so it would be appreciated if interested editors would do a bit of fact-checking/reading before placing a comment either way. I suggest editors use the terms Include or Do not include along with their comments and/or suggested wording. Thanks,
Peacemaker67 (
crack... thump)
11:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
an agreeable statement for uninvolved, clueless editors who have no idea about this stuff to actually understand what the RfC is actually asking." Is it bad to self-quote? Too pretentious or is this was an okay situation? Curious, is all. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 00:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
The Hague indictment of Biljana Plavsic, covering the period until the end of 1992, the crime occurred in Srebrenica in the summer of 1995.Sweden journalist says that the tribunal was shown pictures Plavsic crossing over the dead bodies of Muslims in Bijeljina to be approached and kissed Arkan ". Slavenka Drakulic in his book claims the same, but according to her data, there were more corpses. And this "image" is not displayed in the Hague courtroom just because pictures do not exist, because Plavsic and not passed over dead bodies. To be greeted with Arkan, yes, but it's not a crime. Image with corpses exists only in evil thoughts Slavenka and Margaret, only that they were not agreed upon in the number of corpses.
Go for it Peacemaker67, though I'm sure that 23 editor and Potočnik would probably want to nitpick a few sentences to create a desired outcome; the mention, or not, of the photo of Plavsic stepping over bodies, or not. Pinged them to just double check and get a tick of approval. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 12:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Put it up. 23 editor ( talk) 00:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I want to take this article to FA, and I believe that the inclusion of the material about "Plavsic stepping over a body to kiss Arkan" needs to be resolved by the community in order to progress the article. I have formulated a RfC for that purpose, and want to give regular contributors to this article an opportunity to tweak it before I lodge the RfC. This is the formulation as it stands:
RfC: Should this article make reference to a photograph that reportedly shows the Bosnian Serb politician Biljana Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian to kiss the Serb paramilitary leader Željko Ražnatović (aka Arkan)? The current version of the article makes reference to a photograph in the following terms: "A photograph, described as "widely-circulated" and "notorious", reportedly shows Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian during the kiss." This material is sourced to an online BBC report and a journal article, which itself cites another news source. The kiss between Plavšić and Arkan is not at issue here, there are many reliable sources that mention it, and it has been accepted as an agreed fact in several prosecutions at International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The question is over whether or not a photograph showing this detail exists, and whether or not it is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary sources. Plavšić is still alive, so WP:BLP obviously applies here.
Thoughts? Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 13:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Here is a summary of the sources Potočnik has presented:
Here are some of the sources that make no mention of her stepping over corpse(s).
The story is the invention of Izetbegović ally and Young Muslim Ešref Čampara, from his book semi-fictional book Human rights throughout history and today (2000; Vijeće Kongresa bošnjačkih intelektualaca). On page 21, he mentions how Plavsic steps over a corpse "to kiss the Avenger", Arkan. This is where Western journalists got the idea. Investigative reporter Miroslav Lazanski, writing for Politika, explicitly says such a photo doesn't exist. See, BILJANA, GRAĐANIN SRBIJE (21 March 2009):
Translation:
I would suggest posting an RfC notice on the following Noticeboards to get editors to comment; the Biographies of Living People Noticeboard, the Reliable Sources Noticeboard and possibly the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard. If things get heated, aggressive or otherwise uncivil, perhaps a notice on the Admin Noticeboard with a request for moderation of comments. A notice should also be placed on the related WikiProjects listed above.
As for the ongoing dispute over sourcing; put them into a table. 4 columns by however many sources are used. Column titles would possibly be "Kissed over body/bodies"; "Quote (plus sentence on either side)"; "Kissed but no bodies (lack of mention/outright disputed)"; Quote (plus sentence on either side)
It may also be best to place a caveat warning for users to do a bit of fact-checking WP:Before placing a comment either way. Hope this helps with the RfC formatting. If you want help with setting up the table, just give me a {{ user}} ping. Cheers, Drcrazy102 ( talk) 23:08, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
I'll keep adding to this, but won't complain if other editors would also add info they dug up.
Kissed over body/bodies | Quote | Kissed but no bodies | Quote |
---|---|---|---|
Biljana Plavsic: Serbian Iron Lady published by BBC (2003) | The self-styled "Serbian Iron Lady" once defended the purge of Bosnian non-Serbs as "a natural phenomenon" not a war crime. In 1992, a widely-circulated photographed showed her stepping over the body of a dead Muslim civilian to kiss the notorious Serb warlord Zeljko Raznjatovic, known as Arkan. But a decade later, she pleaded guilty to crimes against humanity, and apologised to "all the innocent victims of the Bosnian war - Muslims, Croats and Serbs alike". |
Gojko Beric (in snippet view) on p. 216 of Letters to the Celestial Serbs published by Saqi Books (2002) | The Bosniaks will always remember her for the kisses she showered on Željko Ražnatović Arkan after the massacre and "liberation" of Bijeljina, where the streets were still littered with the corpses of civilians who had just been killed |
Slavenka Drakulić in " The false repentance of Biljana Plavsic" published by Eurozine (2009) |
|
Janine di Giovanni on p. 253 of Madness Visible: A Memoir of War published by A&C Black (2012) | During the trial of Dusko Tadic, one of the Bosnian Serbs convicted by The Hague in 1998, the prosecution showed footage of Plavsic congratulating and kissing Arkan after the massacre of Muslims in eastern Bosnia. |
Jelena Subotić in The Cruelty of False Remorse: Biljana Plavšić at the Hague published by BRILL (2012) | Plavšić is also the star of a notorious photograph taken during the first days of the conflict in Bijeljina, in which she is shown stepping over the body of a dead Bosniac civilian to kiss one of the most brutal Serbian warlords Željko Ražnatović Arkan (Glauber 2002).It is this ‘lady’ who stood accused of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity on front of the Hague court. |
Laura Silber and Allan Little on p. 225 of The Death of Yugoslavia published by Penguin (1996) | Plavšić didn't hide her own interpretation of events. She greeted Arkan with a kiss. |
Bill Glauber in Sentence hearings start for `Iron Lady of Balkans' published by Chicago Tribune (2002) | She once claimed that "there are 12 million Serbs, and even if 6 million perish on the field of battle, there will still be 6million to reap the fruits of the struggle." She also was photographed stepping over the body of a Muslim to plant a kiss on the face of Serbian warlord Zeljko Raznjatovic, known as Arkan.Later she came to be embraced by the United States as the Americans sought a solution to the conflict. |
Judith Armatta on p. 234 of Twilight of Impunity: The War Crimes Trial of Slobodan Milosevic published by Duke University Press (2010) | Bijeljina was the beginning of a campaign of ethnic cleansing, terror, and genocide that swept across Bosnia and lasted four years. For his success in ridding Bijeljina of its non-Serb population Arkan received a kiss, recorded on camera, from the RS presidency member Biljana Plavšić. |
Daniel Uggelberg Goldberg inn Plavsic retracts war-crimes confession published by Bosnian Institute (2009) | She has been accused of playing a role in the massacre at Srebrenica in 1995, where at least 8,000 Muslims were killed. In a photograph presented as evidence at the Hague tribunal, she is seen stepping over a dead body to greet notorious Serbian warlord Zeljko 'Arkan' Raznatovic with a kiss. |
Kemal Kurspahić on p. 118 of As Long As Sarajevo Exists published by Pamphleteer's Press (1997) | On that day in Bijeljina, when the cameras were recording the kiss Ms. Plavsic bestowed upon the notorious war criminal Zeljko Raznatovic-Arkan in the presence of high-ranking JNA officers, Vlado Mrkić was taken away for questioning by Arkan's men. |
Nancy Amoury Combs in Prosecutor v. Plavšić. Case No. IT-00-39&40/1-S published in the American Journal of International Law by the American Society of International Law (October 2003) | Reference 2. "A notorious photograph taken during the first days of the conflict showed Plavsic stepping over the body of a dead Muslim civilian to kiss the murderous Serbian warlord Zeljko Raznjatovic, better known as Arkan, greeting him as a patriot." |
Central Intelligence Agency, Office of Russian and European Analysis Reference 85. p. 164 (2003) | In one of the Bosnian Presidency's last official acts before the government collapsed, Izetbegovic sent a joint delegation (including Fikret Abdic, a Muslim; Jerko Doko, a Croat; and Biljana Plavsic, a Serb) to investigate what had happened in Bijeljina. Predictably, the inquiry went nowhere. The most memorable aspect of the "investigation" occurred when the future president of the Republika Srpska, Biljana Plavsic, first encountered Arkan after the Bijeljina takeover. She greeted him with a kiss. |
Ian Traynor in Leading Bosnian Serb war criminal released from Swedish prison published by The Guardian (2009) | Wearing a fur coat and blowing kisses to the crowds gathered to greet her, Plavsic arrived in the Serbian capital today, accompanied by the Bosnian Serb prime minister, Milorad Dodik. Plavsic, an extreme Serbian nationalist who was notoriously photographed embracing the late warlord Arkan alongside dead Bosnian Muslims at the beginning of the war, reached a plea bargain with prosecutors in The Hague and received an 11-year sentence in 2003. She had faced eight charges, including two of genocide. |
Vidosav Stevanovic and Trude Johansson on p. 100 of Milosevic: The People's Tyrant published by I.B. Tauris (2004) | After Arkan had cleansed Bijeljina of Muslims, Biljana Plavsic kissed him in front of cameras. |
Maggie O'Kane in Court comes of age with her surrender published by The Guardian (12 January 2001) | It is known that she kept bad company for most of 90s. Infamously, she was photographed stepping over the body of an executed Muslim in the town of Bijlena in April 1992, to kiss Arkan, Serbia's most brutal paramilitary leader.She told reporters: "I exchange kisses only with heroes." |
Prosecutor v. Momčilo Krajišnik (Trial Judgment) from the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), 27 September 2006 | Plavšić did not persist with her request, and repeatedly praised the good job Arkan had done in saving the local Serb population from the threat of the Muslims. 682 When the group returned to the municipality building, Plavšić publicly thanked and kissed Arkan.This scene was met by shouts of approval from the local SDS members present. 683 |
War criminal freed after six years' jail published by Sydney Morning Herald (2009) | I'm happy to be here … but, after nine years in prison, I don't know what will happen, she said.Ms Plavsic, an extreme Serbian nationalist who was notoriously photographed embracing the late warlord Arkan alongside dead Bosnian Muslims at the beginning of the war, reached a plea bargain with prosecutors in The Hague and received an 11-year sentence in 2003. She voluntarily surrendered to the tribunal in 2001 and remained in custody. |
Carole Rogel on p. 136 of The Breakup of Yugoslavia and its Aftermath (2004) | Arkan's handiwork was also appreciated by the Bosnian Serb authorities–Biljana Plavsic, Radovan Karadzic's sidekick and president of the Serb Republic of Bosnia since the summer of 1996, greeted Arkan with a big kiss after his 1992 exploits in Zvornik (sic). |
Liane Martindale in Lessons from the Former Yugoslavia in InterMarium (East Central European Center Journal) published by Columbia University (2003) | Her explanation that egregious crimes had been motivated by Serbs’ “blinding fear,” which led to an “obsession” that they would “never again become victims,” as they had in World War II, had little resonance in non-Serb quarters.111 Few can forget the woman, who was once shown on local TV, stepping over a Bosniak corpse to kiss and congratulate the Serbian warlord Zeljko Raznjatovic, known as, Arkan.His notorious paramilitary gang had just taken the Eastern Bosnian town of Bijeljina by force in April of 1992 and purged it of non-Serbs. |
Institute for War & Peace Reporting (Suljagic 2005) | Inside, they found several hundred Bosnian Muslims who had sought refuge from the Serbian paramilitaries who controlled the town. When the delegation met Arkan in front of the municipal offices in Bijeljina, Biljana Plavsic kissed him on the cheek."She called him 'my child'," said Omeragic. |
Slavenka Drakulic in They Would Never Hurt A Fly: War Criminals on Trial in The Hague published by Hachette (2013) | It was terrible to think that she, as one of the formal heads of the secret police of Republika Srpska, as well as the one of the military commanders must have been aware of the starvation, torture and killing of Muslim prisons in the appalling concentration camps of Omarska, Keraterm and Manjaca. Another photograph of her from the war shows her kissing the notorious criminal Željko Ražnatovi Arkan hours after his Serbian paramilitary troops had entered Bijeljina and killed forty-eight people. The corpses were still lying in the streets – indeed, she had to step over one body in order to throw her arms around Arkan's neck, kiss him and congratulate him on the successful elimination of the 'genetic mistake'. When she heard that she had been indicted, she immediately surrendered herself to the Tribunal in January 2001, firmly believe that she had fulfilled her duty in defending her people and therefore could not be guilty of genocide, crimes against humanity, violations of the laws and customs of war and breaches of the Geneva Convention, with which she was charged by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. |
The Seattle Times "Karadzic Gives Power To Hard-Line, Notorious `Serb Empress' -- He Reneges On Quitting, Makes Extremist His Agent" (1996) | She is well-remembered for walking hand in hand with a Serb paramilitary leader, Zeljko Raznatovic, better known as the notorious Arkan, during his 1992 seizure of Bijeljina, a northeastern Bosnian town that became a symbol of Serb atrocities. In front of cameras, a euphoric Plavsic kissed Arkan on the cheek. He later named her "the Serb empress" and gave her his self-styled "Obilic" medal for bravery. |
Carol S. Lilly and Jill A. Irvine in Leading the Nation: Extreme Right Women Leaders Among the Serbs of Women of the Right: Comparisons and Interplay Across Borders published by Penn State Press (2012) | Plavsic publicly lauded paramilitary leaders who carried out ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina. One well-known photo of Plavsic in 1992 shows her stepping over the body of a dead Muslim soldier to kiss Željko Ražnjatovic ́ Arkan, the notorious Serbian war criminal whose paramilitary soldiers were known to be responsible for some of the worst atrocities committed throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.As she planted the kiss on his cheek, Plavsic declared Arkan to be "a real Serbian hero. He is a real Serb. We need men like him." |
The Independent "Foreign Office to welcome Serbian 'Nazi'" (1997) | They remember, as Mr Cook's officials apparently do not, how in April 1992 the Serb paramilitary boss Zeljko Raznjatovic "Arkan" stormed the small, mostly Muslim town of Bijeljina in north-east Bosnia, butchering many of the inhabitants, and how Mrs Plavsic rushed to the town and - after inspecting Arkan's grisly handywork - gave him a rapturous kiss. |
Jonathan H. Choi in Early Release in International Criminal Law published in Yale Law Journal (2014) | The Prosecutor alleged that Plavšić had masterminded a policy of racial extermination and persecution as a member of the three-person Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina.5 She had enthusiastically endorsed ethnic cleansing of Muslims and Croats, and achieved global notoriety after a 1992 photograph showed her greeting fellow war criminal Željko Ražnatović with a kiss over the dead body of a Muslim civilian.6 Plavšić garnered further fame by surrendering to the Tribunal shortly after her indictment and pleading guilty in 2002. |
The Moscow Times "West Finds Peculiar Ally In Former Hawk Plavsic" (1997) | She shocked the world in 1992 when she publicly kissed Arkan, a Serbian fighter whose troops are suspected of atrocities against Moslems. |
Hans-Jörg Albrecht in Punishment in Political Transitions: Comparing Global Experiences published by Max Planck Society (2015) | It had been alleged that Plavšić had masterminded a policy of racial extermination and persecution in Bosnia. She had enthusiastically endorsed ethnic cleansing of Muslims and Croats, and achieved global notoriety after a 1992 photograph showed her greeting fellow war criminal Ražnatović with a kiss over the dead body of a Muslim civilian. |
The New York Times "Ex-Bosnian Serb Chief Is Said to Surrender" (2001) | Early in the war, which lasted from 1992 to 1995, Ms. Plavsic was photographed kissing a notorious paramilitary leader, Zeljko Raznatovic, better known as Arkan, after his forces seized the Bosnian town of Bijeljina, slaughtering and expelling its Muslim inhabitants. |
Ok, so I don't know who put in all/most/some of the "Kissed but no bodies"'s sources but I want them listed five minutes ago, ok? Good to hear. We will be needing a source and link for the following;
Find these sources, post them up, give me a quote and we can keep going ... or ... I cull the sources that are a) not referenced and/or b) not quoted. They've been up for a few days now, there is no excuse. I will give a 24-48 hours limit (depending on my memory) before I remove the "sources". Pinging @
Peacemaker67,
Potočnik, and
23 editor: for timely responses and action. If the quotes were removed, if the source link was removed, put them back up if they support the column header or remove them.
Thanks again to Peacemaker67 for putting in the time and effort to create the table, now we just need to keep going at it, then we can post up an RfC and settle this. Cheers,
Drcrazy102 (
talk)
03:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
RfC: Should this article make reference to a photograph that reportedly shows the Bosnian Serb politician Biljana Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian to kiss the Serb paramilitary leader Željko Ražnatović (aka Arkan)?
The current version of the article makes reference to a photograph in the following terms: "A photograph, described as 'widely-circulated' and 'notorious', reportedly shows Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian during the kiss." This material is sourced to an online BBC report and a journal article, which itself cites another news source.
To be clear: the kiss between Plavšić and Arkan is not at issue here, there are many reliable sources that mention it, and it has been accepted as an agreed fact in several prosecutions at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The question is over whether or not a photograph showing Plavsic stepping over a dead body to kiss Arkan exists, and whether or not it is an exceptional claim requiring exceptional sources. Plavšić is still alive, so WP:BLP also applies here.
A list of sources both mentioning and not mentioning Plavsic stepping over a dead body, is provided below for easy perusal though respondents are asked to find more sources if possible.(Minor copy-edit and additional sentence)
If this proposal statement is acceptable, then I suppose we can get the RfC started. FWIW I can't find fault and copy-edited for clarity rather than because of any errors or non-neutrality. (BTW Peace, I was double checking your quotes as you went, you did better than I did) Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 06:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Alright, how's this for the text of the RfC, after which the table will appear:
RfC: Should this article make reference to the Bosnian Serb politician
Biljana Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead
Bosniak to kiss the Serb paramilitary leader
Željko Ražnatović (aka Arkan)?
The
current version of the article makes reference to a photograph in the following terms: "A photograph, described as "widely-circulated" and "notorious", reportedly shows Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian during the kiss." The kiss between Plavšić and Arkan is not at issue here, there are many reliable sources that mention it, and it has been accepted as an agreed fact in several prosecutions at International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The question is whether "Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak", or words to that effect, should be mentioned in the article, significant number of sources mention mention this detail while a significant number of sources do not'. If you consider it should be mentioned in the article, please say how it should be mentioned in the article. Plavšić is still alive, so
WP:BLP obviously applies. The table below lists sources/quotes that mention the "Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak" detail in some form, as well as sources/quotes that don't mention that detail regarding "the kiss". This is a bit of a contentious and complex RfC, so it would be appreciated if interested editors would do a bit of fact-checking/reading before placing a comment either way. Thanks,
Peacemaker67 (
crack... thump)
09:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
New version (pinging
23 editor and
Drcrazy102 for comment too):
RfC: Should this article make reference to the Bosnian Serb politician
Biljana Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead
Bosniak to kiss the Serb paramilitary leader
Željko Ražnatović (aka Arkan)?
The
current version of the article makes reference to a photograph in the following terms: "A photograph, described as "widely-circulated" and "notorious", reportedly shows Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak civilian during the kiss." The kiss between Plavšić and Arkan is not at issue here, there are many reliable sources that mention it, and it has been accepted as an agreed fact in several prosecutions at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The question of this RfC is whether Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak, or words to that effect, should be mentioned in the article, given that a significant number of sources mention this detail while a significant number of sources do not. If you consider it should be mentioned in the article, please indicate what wording you consider should be used. Plavšić is still alive, so
WP:BLP obviously applies. The table below lists sources/quotes that mention the "Plavšić stepping over the body of a dead Bosniak to kiss Arkan" detail in some form, as well as a list of sources/quotes that don't mention any dead body during "the kiss". This is a bit of a contentious and complex RfC, so it would be appreciated if interested editors would do a bit of fact-checking/reading before placing a comment either way. I suggest editors use the terms Include or Do not include along with their comments and/or suggested wording. Thanks,
Peacemaker67 (
crack... thump)
11:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
an agreeable statement for uninvolved, clueless editors who have no idea about this stuff to actually understand what the RfC is actually asking." Is it bad to self-quote? Too pretentious or is this was an okay situation? Curious, is all. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 00:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
The Hague indictment of Biljana Plavsic, covering the period until the end of 1992, the crime occurred in Srebrenica in the summer of 1995.Sweden journalist says that the tribunal was shown pictures Plavsic crossing over the dead bodies of Muslims in Bijeljina to be approached and kissed Arkan ". Slavenka Drakulic in his book claims the same, but according to her data, there were more corpses. And this "image" is not displayed in the Hague courtroom just because pictures do not exist, because Plavsic and not passed over dead bodies. To be greeted with Arkan, yes, but it's not a crime. Image with corpses exists only in evil thoughts Slavenka and Margaret, only that they were not agreed upon in the number of corpses.
Go for it Peacemaker67, though I'm sure that 23 editor and Potočnik would probably want to nitpick a few sentences to create a desired outcome; the mention, or not, of the photo of Plavsic stepping over bodies, or not. Pinged them to just double check and get a tick of approval. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 12:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Put it up. 23 editor ( talk) 00:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)