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It may be interesting for some people to know which translation is officially recognized in various Christian (and Jewish) denominations (this means those translations that are used in liturgy etc.) Does anybody know more about that? 62.46.196.160
Would it be feasible to have a quick-and-dirty table (or other form of concise representation) that shows the dependency of all those translations? I came here to quickly check which early English translations (Tyndale? Wyclif?) were based on the Vulgate and which weren't. Which use a Hebrew original? Which use the Septuagint original? Do the folks behind the Geneva Bible have access to Luther's translation? Etc., etc. I may be naive, but it seems as if such information is pretty well defined and could be presented as a table. (In any case, I found these otherwise wonderful pages lacking in giving me precisely the information I was looking for.) Arbor 13:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
"These centuries added to the (unfounded) conviction of many that the Bible ought not to become too common, that it should not be read by everybody, that it required a certain amount of learning to make it safe reading."
This claim of an "(unfounded) conviction" can be refuted with the fact that protestant church groups are over 30,000 in number at this time of writing. [Cpt|Kirk 12:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)]
i'm wondering whether 'although john wycleff....into old english' is really the right wording - given that to all intents & purposes, old english is about as different a language from modern english as modern german is from modern english; just because the word 'english' is in both names, they're not really the same language in any useful, plain english (!) sense. would it be worth rewording this opening paragraph to take that into account ? Star-one 12:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The link from "History of the English Bible" is confusing. Silver Surfer 10:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
"While the illiterate majority of the people had little desire for access to the Bible, the educated minority would have been averse to so great and revolutionary a change." I'm certainly not comfortable with this proclamation about "the people" having had "little desire for access to the Bible." I can understand their maybe having little need but, as I understand Western history, perhaps the primary reason for the spread of literacy itself was the desire for access to the Bible. Maybe a bit of acadmeic bias implied in this statement?-- Economy1 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 23:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The article doesn't clearly cite the sources. I read the 1911 encyclopedia entry near the bottom of the page, and there are statements made in this article that do not appear to be in the original material. Also, the book cited at the bottom of the article, in the references section, is not linked to any specific material within the article, so I can not be sure what specific text the reference is referring to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Godfollower4ever ( talk • contribs) 04:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The "2008" data actually was a link to current data. While a link to current data is good, it can't be used as a reference to back up any statement in the article, since it might change (and the article wouldn't). So I made links to both. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 19:13, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Couldn't we just have both lists? If 100 million KJV's are distributed every year, I'm interested in that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AuthorityTam ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Out of interest I tried your method for UK. There's a slight complication, as you see:
In the course of this I came across several more GNBs. It seems quite clear it's the most popular over here. As we're a sizable minority of the market, I don't see why it shouldn't end up in the top 10. Of course all of this probably counts as original research anyway. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that the discussion of popularity of various versions assumes that sales are greatly affected by what bookstores carry. But I think this is misleading. If other versions are more in demand, bookstores will carry them, applying the law of supply and demand. I'm pondering how to reword this to acknowledge that many stores carry a limited variety of versions, but that this is in response to the popularity of versions. Pete unseth ( talk) 17:26, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
The Anchor Bible Series, the only example previously cited in this section, is not a translation but a series of commentary and reference books. That leaves us without a single example of "critical" translations. Does anyone know of such a translation? DJ Clayworth ( talk) 15:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
How many books have been translated in the Anchor Series? If it's only a few then I really don't think it deserves a mention, given the hundreds of possible translations vying for space in the article. I'm not even sure what its distiguishing features are - in what way is it a different kind of translation from the NIV or the RSV? By the way, the Comprehensive New Testament doesn't appear to be a single-source translation. It extensively notes for textual variants, but my understanding is it still makes a choice of words based on all the textual sources. Have I misunderstood that? DJ Clayworth ( talk) 21:06, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
"but do not state which textform is indicated in the footnotes or the base text". What does that mean? The NIV at least indicates which manuscript is the source of the main and variant translations. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 21:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
From the article, in the section on Early Modern English translations, specifically talking about Tyndale's translation:
"Greek and Hebrew are slightly closer to English than Latin, and thus, Tyndale’s translation is one of the more accessible versions in its English phrasing."
I find that very difficult to believe. Latin has had a much bigger effect on modern English than Greek, and Hebrew very little direct effect. I would like to see a citation for this at the very least. I left it in, but I would very much like to see some evidence for this outlandish claim.
98.109.133.51 ( talk) 01:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Reasonable points. In fact looking at the cwhole paragraph, it seemed to be mostly original research with no reliable sources backing up the claims. I've simply removed it. Someone is welcome to restore such information if it can be reliably sourced Feline Hymnic ( talk) 10:47, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
This article's description of only two types of translation seems to conflict with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations#Modern_translation_efforts which clearly distinguishes "dynamic equivalence" as different from "paraphrase." This article here equates those two, implying that only two methods of translation exist: 1) literal, word for word, and 2) paraphrase. This is disingenuous at the very least. The discussion on the linked Bible translations page is much more in-depth and better written.
DocOctopus ( talk) 20:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
I was caught up short reading this paragraph. Two sentences begin with the work "It", which has no obvious antecedent. At first I thought "It" referred to the books that Tyndale printed, but this obviously does not fit the context. This should be an easy fix.
Much worse is the disinformation in the last sentence, "In this version the 14 books of the Apochrypha [sic] are returned to the Bible in the order written rather than kept separate in an appendix." (my emphasis} Nobody knows enough about the dates of the books of the Bible to line them up in the order written. There is not even a standard order; Medieval manuscripts differ, and each of the major religious traditions has its own "logic" for arranging the books in the modern printed copies (and its own choice of books). How about "in their usual places according to the Latin Vulgate, rather than being in an appendix, as in all Protestant Bibles". (Actually, I'm not sure about the last five words -- is this true of Protestant Bibles in other European languages?) Eall Ân Ûle ( talk) 05:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
This is undoubtedly a sticky subject and one that, in practice, is likely more difficult to handle than in theory. The recent attempts in the main article to neutralize discussion of the Jehovah's Witnesses translation of the Bible (which renders Elohim, Yahweh, etc. as Jehovah, and also translates the New Testament to deny the divinity of Christ), as well as the advent of intentional mistranslations such as the Queen James, make me wonder what place such translations have in this article, or in related articles on the Bible. Adding to the complexity is the fact that opinion on whether a version is intentionally mistranslated, biased versus the original text, etc. usually is not unanimous and is subject to perspective. But we may be able to make a distinction on the basis of the group(s) involved in developing the translation...for example, I would argue that translations produced with critical scholarship, or groups with no strong political/social leanings, or groups represented by several mainstream denominations, should not be classified in this group. Jtrevor99 ( talk) 20:59, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Doug Weller, I saw your removal of a link for being "fringe and anti-Catholic". I'm not challenging it but am looking for more information. What about the link is "fringe and anti-Catholic"? (To wit: a link can exclusively cover Protestant denominations without being anti-Catholic, though such probably should be stated in the article.) Jtrevor99 ( talk) 18:08, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
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![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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It may be interesting for some people to know which translation is officially recognized in various Christian (and Jewish) denominations (this means those translations that are used in liturgy etc.) Does anybody know more about that? 62.46.196.160
Would it be feasible to have a quick-and-dirty table (or other form of concise representation) that shows the dependency of all those translations? I came here to quickly check which early English translations (Tyndale? Wyclif?) were based on the Vulgate and which weren't. Which use a Hebrew original? Which use the Septuagint original? Do the folks behind the Geneva Bible have access to Luther's translation? Etc., etc. I may be naive, but it seems as if such information is pretty well defined and could be presented as a table. (In any case, I found these otherwise wonderful pages lacking in giving me precisely the information I was looking for.) Arbor 13:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
"These centuries added to the (unfounded) conviction of many that the Bible ought not to become too common, that it should not be read by everybody, that it required a certain amount of learning to make it safe reading."
This claim of an "(unfounded) conviction" can be refuted with the fact that protestant church groups are over 30,000 in number at this time of writing. [Cpt|Kirk 12:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)]
i'm wondering whether 'although john wycleff....into old english' is really the right wording - given that to all intents & purposes, old english is about as different a language from modern english as modern german is from modern english; just because the word 'english' is in both names, they're not really the same language in any useful, plain english (!) sense. would it be worth rewording this opening paragraph to take that into account ? Star-one 12:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The link from "History of the English Bible" is confusing. Silver Surfer 10:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
"While the illiterate majority of the people had little desire for access to the Bible, the educated minority would have been averse to so great and revolutionary a change." I'm certainly not comfortable with this proclamation about "the people" having had "little desire for access to the Bible." I can understand their maybe having little need but, as I understand Western history, perhaps the primary reason for the spread of literacy itself was the desire for access to the Bible. Maybe a bit of acadmeic bias implied in this statement?-- Economy1 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 23:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The article doesn't clearly cite the sources. I read the 1911 encyclopedia entry near the bottom of the page, and there are statements made in this article that do not appear to be in the original material. Also, the book cited at the bottom of the article, in the references section, is not linked to any specific material within the article, so I can not be sure what specific text the reference is referring to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Godfollower4ever ( talk • contribs) 04:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The "2008" data actually was a link to current data. While a link to current data is good, it can't be used as a reference to back up any statement in the article, since it might change (and the article wouldn't). So I made links to both. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 19:13, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Couldn't we just have both lists? If 100 million KJV's are distributed every year, I'm interested in that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AuthorityTam ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Out of interest I tried your method for UK. There's a slight complication, as you see:
In the course of this I came across several more GNBs. It seems quite clear it's the most popular over here. As we're a sizable minority of the market, I don't see why it shouldn't end up in the top 10. Of course all of this probably counts as original research anyway. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that the discussion of popularity of various versions assumes that sales are greatly affected by what bookstores carry. But I think this is misleading. If other versions are more in demand, bookstores will carry them, applying the law of supply and demand. I'm pondering how to reword this to acknowledge that many stores carry a limited variety of versions, but that this is in response to the popularity of versions. Pete unseth ( talk) 17:26, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
The Anchor Bible Series, the only example previously cited in this section, is not a translation but a series of commentary and reference books. That leaves us without a single example of "critical" translations. Does anyone know of such a translation? DJ Clayworth ( talk) 15:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
How many books have been translated in the Anchor Series? If it's only a few then I really don't think it deserves a mention, given the hundreds of possible translations vying for space in the article. I'm not even sure what its distiguishing features are - in what way is it a different kind of translation from the NIV or the RSV? By the way, the Comprehensive New Testament doesn't appear to be a single-source translation. It extensively notes for textual variants, but my understanding is it still makes a choice of words based on all the textual sources. Have I misunderstood that? DJ Clayworth ( talk) 21:06, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
"but do not state which textform is indicated in the footnotes or the base text". What does that mean? The NIV at least indicates which manuscript is the source of the main and variant translations. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 21:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
From the article, in the section on Early Modern English translations, specifically talking about Tyndale's translation:
"Greek and Hebrew are slightly closer to English than Latin, and thus, Tyndale’s translation is one of the more accessible versions in its English phrasing."
I find that very difficult to believe. Latin has had a much bigger effect on modern English than Greek, and Hebrew very little direct effect. I would like to see a citation for this at the very least. I left it in, but I would very much like to see some evidence for this outlandish claim.
98.109.133.51 ( talk) 01:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Reasonable points. In fact looking at the cwhole paragraph, it seemed to be mostly original research with no reliable sources backing up the claims. I've simply removed it. Someone is welcome to restore such information if it can be reliably sourced Feline Hymnic ( talk) 10:47, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
This article's description of only two types of translation seems to conflict with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations#Modern_translation_efforts which clearly distinguishes "dynamic equivalence" as different from "paraphrase." This article here equates those two, implying that only two methods of translation exist: 1) literal, word for word, and 2) paraphrase. This is disingenuous at the very least. The discussion on the linked Bible translations page is much more in-depth and better written.
DocOctopus ( talk) 20:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
I was caught up short reading this paragraph. Two sentences begin with the work "It", which has no obvious antecedent. At first I thought "It" referred to the books that Tyndale printed, but this obviously does not fit the context. This should be an easy fix.
Much worse is the disinformation in the last sentence, "In this version the 14 books of the Apochrypha [sic] are returned to the Bible in the order written rather than kept separate in an appendix." (my emphasis} Nobody knows enough about the dates of the books of the Bible to line them up in the order written. There is not even a standard order; Medieval manuscripts differ, and each of the major religious traditions has its own "logic" for arranging the books in the modern printed copies (and its own choice of books). How about "in their usual places according to the Latin Vulgate, rather than being in an appendix, as in all Protestant Bibles". (Actually, I'm not sure about the last five words -- is this true of Protestant Bibles in other European languages?) Eall Ân Ûle ( talk) 05:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
This is undoubtedly a sticky subject and one that, in practice, is likely more difficult to handle than in theory. The recent attempts in the main article to neutralize discussion of the Jehovah's Witnesses translation of the Bible (which renders Elohim, Yahweh, etc. as Jehovah, and also translates the New Testament to deny the divinity of Christ), as well as the advent of intentional mistranslations such as the Queen James, make me wonder what place such translations have in this article, or in related articles on the Bible. Adding to the complexity is the fact that opinion on whether a version is intentionally mistranslated, biased versus the original text, etc. usually is not unanimous and is subject to perspective. But we may be able to make a distinction on the basis of the group(s) involved in developing the translation...for example, I would argue that translations produced with critical scholarship, or groups with no strong political/social leanings, or groups represented by several mainstream denominations, should not be classified in this group. Jtrevor99 ( talk) 20:59, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Doug Weller, I saw your removal of a link for being "fringe and anti-Catholic". I'm not challenging it but am looking for more information. What about the link is "fringe and anti-Catholic"? (To wit: a link can exclusively cover Protestant denominations without being anti-Catholic, though such probably should be stated in the article.) Jtrevor99 ( talk) 18:08, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
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