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I have asked a question at the Layman's Home Missionary Movement talk page about the spelling of the name of this group. It appears to be misspelled at that article and also in the Bible Student Movement article. Someone changed (corrected?) the spelling of the group's name in this article recently without explanation, but those edits were reverted. It should be fairly easy to verify. LTSally ( talk) 09:52, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I have deleted a number of statements within this section that are not supported by the sources cited. The extension of powers gained by Rutherford in votes taken at board level and at the 1917 convention was not done secretly. The change in by-laws were openly debated and voted. See "Light After Darkness" pages 5 and 6. There is nothing in that publication that quotes a petition saying "We, the undersigned, give the President of the Society a blanket vote of confidence", nor is there any suggestion Rutherford required a letter of explanation from those who so refused to sign. The reference to the expulsion of "the four Board members both from the Board itself and from the Bethel" on July 5 is not entirely accurate. Both "Light After Darkness" and Rutherford's "Harvest Siftings" mention the incident but disagree over what happened. The four were certainly evicted on the day — by Rutherford's account because there were fears of what they would do — but not expelled. All four were present in the Bethel dining room on July 17 when Rutherford announced he had replaced them on the board. The JW Proclaimers book claims the directors left Bethel on August 8. "Harvest Siftings Reviewed" (page 17) says Rutherford asked Johnson to leave Bethel on July 27 and the four directors days later. The story is sufficiently dramatic without beating it up further. LTSally ( talk) 09:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I have deleted the term "Restorationist" from the opening sentence and replaced it with "Millennialist". I'll copy below a discussion with User:Jeffro77, who disagrees with my view. Other opinions are welcome. BlackCab ( talk) 04:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Earlier posting begins: I'm not sure I can agree with this edit [1]. The two terms are not mutually exclusive, and the Bible Student movement is restorationist.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 03:29, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Assertion | Assertion defines group as Restorationists? |
Can be claimed? | Can be verified? | JWs make this claim? |
---|---|---|---|---|
"We are Restorationists" | Yes | Yes | Yes | No |
"We are a restoration of first-century Christianity" | Yes | Yes | No | Yes |
After having read the Wikipedia articles on Millennialism and Restorationism the latter is closer to what CTR believed and taught. In other words, I agree with Jeffro. The article on Millennialism outlines views some of which were neither held by CTR nor by any Bible Students. As I read it Restorationism seems to be the adoption of a claim and/or a belief that one has restored some or all of the original doctrines and traditions of those Christians living before the First Council of Nicea in 325, in particular the teachings and traditions held during the first century or so after the death of Jesus. Jeffro is also correct in the Adventist connection. But I don't want to seem to be disagreeing with everything BlackCab is saying so my opinion would be to use both terms in the article along these lines "was a Christian Restorationist with Millennialist leanings" as only some of the views in the Millennialism article were held by CTR. Would references be helpful? I can provide some if you'd like but please specify the topic and angle. As for the JWs I cannot testify as to their current beliefs because they seem to change quite often and I do not possess their publications. Pastorrussell ( talk) 16:10, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Bible Students are not adherents of
Protestantism. They are adherents of
Restorationism (Christian primitivism). The matter was previously discussed and should not have been edited without discussion. It has been
reverted back to Restorationism until the matter is discussed. Note
this section.
See
Talk:Bible Student movement/Archive 5#"Protestant"?.
See
Talk:Bible Student movement#Millennialist or Restorationist? Or both? (it will
eventually be here).
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
22:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I have trimmed the section dealing with the events of 1917 to become a summary of a new spinout article, Watch Tower Society presidency dispute of 1917, which was created to remove repetition at this article, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania and Joseph Franklin Rutherford. BlackCab ( talk) 01:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
The other movements mentioned in this article, some with their own articles, have the word 'Movement' capitalised. For consistency, would editors prefer that this article name also capitalise 'Movement', or change the others to lowercase?-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 13:32, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
There are absolutely no references for this entire paragraph. Although it probably is true, it is Wikipedia policy to not have information which has no reliable sources supporting it. If no one can come up with some good references, I think this paragraph should be deleted. If anyone is against this, please say so below and why. If no one is against this for good reason, I'll delete the paragraph is one week from now, 13/06/2010. Beeshoney ( talk) 17:44, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
No objections - Paragraph deleted. Beeshoney ( talk) 14:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Recently, a thread in a related article's Talk asked and answered that Bible Students contemporaneous with Russell abstained from warfare (though they submitted to conscription and did not object to all military service). That thread should have been linked here, so here it is:
Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 54#Regarding political neutrality and abstinence from warfare
.
Incidentally, here's another reference which tends to support the 'abstinence from warfare' point:
Note that the ref says "offering military service" (in other words, enlisting rather than submitting to conscription).
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
22:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
At the article
Jehovah's Witnesses, someone recently changed "1876: Bible Students founded" to "1879". This had been discussed in that article's past Talk and elsewhere, and should have been discussed again before being changed. I believe the Talk is better centered here, and hope it will not be quickly Archived (by the way, this article Talk is archived way too aggressively; take a look how many pages there are and how little each one has).
Anyway...
While 1879 marks the publishing of their flagship magazine (now
The Watchtower), there were previous publishing events as well as previous religious events throughout the 1870s. Notably, the Encyclopedia of Religion in the South, page 403, notes, "The [Jehovah's] Witnesses grew out of the Bible Student movement developed by Charles T. Russell (1852-1916) of Pittsburgh in the early 1870s." For this and other reasons, there seems no reason to use 1879 in an article rather than 1876 as the founding of the Bible Student movement (or of Jehovah's Witnesses). Watch Tower publications such as The Watchtower have noted the following timeline:
Did the Bible Student movement burst into existence with 30 congregations in 1879? Plainly, no. Thus, previous article editors had chosen 1876 as the founding since that year is a readily identifiable religious milestone: Russell was elected pastor that year (he had previously been 'chairman'), establishing that congregants considered theirs a religious congregation even if they hesitated to use the term "congregation". Historian Hans Hesse begins his timeline of Bible Students / Jehovah's Witnesses in 1876, noting "1876 Charles Taze Russell is appointed pastor by the Bible Study Group he founded" (see "Chronology: Development and Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses", Persecution and resistance of Jehovah's Witnesses during the Nazi regime by Hans Hesse, Berghahn Books, 2001, page 379). I have reverted that article back to 1876, and hope that the point would be discussed here before being edited again. See also Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 26#Origin of JWs.-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 19:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Previous comments seem to contain a lot of original research, bordering on synth. It should be noted that Russell's group was never absorbed by Barbour's, and Russell was never Barbour's disciple. Also, again, what matters more than publishing efforts is bonafide religious efforts; when did Russell's group act as a discreet religious group? I've bolded "1876" even though it is isn't bolded in the original texts...
I know that certain editors don't like Watch Tower publication, but the four preceding references all focus attention on 1876 and all use the term "Bible Students". Other Watch Tower publications make it clear that the term "Bible Students" is applicable for several years before 1879.
Even if he insists on discounting what Watch Tower publications plainly state, an editor cannot ignore what a verifiable reference states. Here are two which milestone 1876...
Other secular reference give an even earlier year, or at least imply it was earlier than 1879...
So, there is good reason this and related articles should look again at the early 1870s and focus on 1876 specifically as the origin of the Bible Students movement. By that year the group had become a discreet religious entity, having elected elders, having arranged to commemorate the Christian Passover, having begun preaching a unique message, having at least partially separated from other religions, and having not made themselves subject to any outside group. It would be good for editors who disagree to share verifiable references rather than original research on the founding date of the Bible Students movement.
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
20:43, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Trying to seek a consensus I would be willing to compromise for the infobox saying late 1870s with sources for the period from 1876-1879 as Jeffro suggested. The discussion seems to have become somewhat overly emotional and dogmatic and I apologize for my little share. The issue is merely one of facts all of which are in print. It seems there has been a blurring of the lines between when Russell began to teach in his church and the time when he was responsible for formulating what became (or became known as) a movement. 1876 is when CTR, (1) met Nelson H. Barbour, (2) was elected an elder in the Allegheny church, (3) prepared to sell his stores, and (4) started on a preaching tour with Paton and Barbour. A person who would have died on December 31, 1876 would not have been able to identify Russell as an independent minister embarking on his own movement. Although it is true that some of the fundamental views of the Bible Student movement were in place by that time, they were not those views entirely unique to Russell as these same views were also held to by other scattered independent and Adventist groups around the USA, England and parts of Germany which have no connection to the movement, nor even to the latter formation of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Those things which are unique to CTR would include (1) rejection of the Rapture and adopting the view of a spiritual resurrection which dates to 1878, (2) combining his restitutionist views with time prophecy which dates to 1877, (3) emphasizing unique interpretations on substitutionary atonement which dates to 1879, (4) splitting from Barbour and starting his own ministry and gathering members of the Herald mailing list to his "side" which dates to 1879, and (5) teaching the meaning of the types and symbols of the Jewish tabernacle and ceremonies which is very important because this served as the backbone to his entire system of theology and this dates to 1881. Some of the references to these last five points were reproduced above. I'll go through my references and prepare more for later today. Pastorrussell ( talk) 18:13, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
How does one add a footnote? What information should go there? I was initially thinking something along the lines of the following:
That's just an example to get us started. More detail than one line per year might be overkill, however others may disagree with me on that. Pastorrussell ( talk) 22:50, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I believe "1870s" is superior to "late 1870s" because the earlier term is explicitly supportable from references (see below).
Editors should note that two of the four refs above explicitly state "early 1870s", directly contradicting "late 1870s".
Does any ref explicitly claim "late 1870s"? If some refs claim "early 1870s" and some refs claim "late 1870s", would not "1870s" be preferable to either? Incidentally, reference works more commonly list
Bible Student movement (and
Jehovah's Witnesses) milestones such as
Russell's congregation chairmanship, election as pastor, and writing/editorial work (rather than his temporary association with
Barbour, which many works ignore altogether). Thus, mention of Barbour and 1878 was recently removed from the infobox at
Jehovah's Witnesses
.--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
18:11, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the alleged contended date for The Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return. I can't find any recent reference in WTS literature claiming that it was published in 1873. The following statements appear in WTS literature:
I'm not sure where the 1873 claim came from, but it was obviously wrong, and doesn't appear to have originated with the WTS.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 10:13, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Having re-read his own writings on the matter, it seems reasonable to infer that perhaps Russell wrote the pamphlet during the events of 1873/4 (and before 1876), although it is incontrovertible that the Object and Manner was published in 1877. If that interpretation is correct, the 1975 Yearbook should have stated, "...in 1873 twenty-one-year-old C. T. Russell wrote (and later published)...". The Yearbook contains another minor transcription error: Russell actually wrote "ideas generally as to the object and manner", but Yearbook quotes him as writing "ideas generally of the object and manner".
Thus, while it seems possible that Russell wrote the pamplet in 1873/4 and later published it in 1877, to me it seems more likely that the 1975 Yearbook simply erred.-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 22:54, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
The current article is quite heavily weighed toward Russell's developing eschatological chronology; the article somehow managed to completely ignore Bible Student theology regarding the soul, hellfire, biblical inerrancy, clergy, ordainment, and the holy spirit. I hope to do something on this, but welcome the efforts of others.-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 22:54, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Over a year ago Jeffro77 decided that Jehovah's Witnesses literature "does not acknowledge the continued existence of other Bible Student groups". When the unsourced opinion was deleted along with a reason and source, it was swiftly restored. The source given, namely the 1980 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, page 51 gives a clear example of the complete opposite of his opinion:
"Naturally, all of this was a big test for the brothers in France, Belgium and French-speaking Switzerland. A few, mostly in Switzerland, followed Freytag, who founded a sect with himself as “the Lord’s messenger.” With the financial support of his followers, Freytag later bought a big country house outside Geneva from which he ran his sect. It still exists in France under the name of “The Friends of Man.”"
So what is the justification for leaving in an unsourced, completely false opinion? Thunderbird L17 ( talk) 01:28, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I made a change for more neutral wording: /* Jehovah's Witnesses */ more neutral wording
Although, I didn't think the first half of the sentence seemed interesting in any way or more needing/deserving of comment than any of the other Bible Student groups, and considered removing it somehow. Then I read this conversation, so I understand there is some issue with claiming that JW don't acknowledge the splintered-off groups as existing or as legitimate, "heirs to the title," perhaps, to the historical title of, "Original Bible Students." So that helps me to understand why the comment exists in the article at all. That JW don't acknowledge the existence of the other groups is a bizarre thought to me, since most any JW will happily acknowledge such a fact. Just because they don't choose to document the histories of those and advertise them in their publications, doesn't mean they deny their existence. As is likely the case for each of the groups mentioned in the article, they feel that theirs was the correct path to take, and that the other paths were the wrong ones. For anyone to imply otherwise is ... incomprehensible!
As for the issue of sourcing, the very first sentence in this very same article declares (with citation), The Bible Student movement is the name adopted by a Millennialist[1] Restorationist Christian movement that emerged from the teachings and ministry of Charles Taze Russell, also known as Pastor Russell. Therefore, even *IF* only one group gets to claim the historical title of, "Original Bible Students," then surely it would be THE group which Charles Taze Russel started? By that, I obviously don't mean any group which choose to leave his core group (whatever the percentages); I mean THE original group, which continued publishing his magazine, and still is publishing it today. There doesn't seem to be anyone denying that Charles Taze Russell founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society, and then moved it to Brooklyn, where it is now clearly known as the worldwide headquarters of JW. These facts are plastered all over Wikipedia and anywhere else by anyone that has done any tiny bit of research on JW. To deny the historical lineage would require a LOT of citations! OK, that's enough time spent on this by me. :)
108.218.102.17 (
talk)
14:00, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the subsections about Goshen Fellowship and The True Faith Jehovah's Witnesses Association. These Jehovah's Witnesses splinter groups are appropriately covered at the relevant article.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
The WP Russellite page links to this one for, "the religious group". However, except for a quotation embedded in a citation, the term, "Russellite", is not mentioned on this page. Is this an oversight, is the term considered inapropriate, or what? Downstrike ( talk) 10:01, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
I made an edit under this section, with this note on the edit: /* StandFast Bible Students Association */ Removed inaccurate citation, moved accurate citation
First, I removed this citation (ref1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, page 119/ref), because the only possibly relevant text I could find on page 119, either isn't actually supporting the war bond indifference accusation, or isn't recording Russell's pacifist teaching, but rather quoting the Bible book of Isaiah:
I moved this citation to a more relevant position by Rutherford's name and ascribed indifference, rather than at the end of the sentence:
(ref"Could Not Talk of Loan", The New York Times, April 29, 1918,
As Retrieved 2010-03-02, "Rutherford, the President, sa[id] that the buying of bonds was not a religious question, and that the [IBSA] association did not oppose the purchase of Liberty bonds by the members"/ref)
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
108.218.102.17 (
talk) 12:42, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
108.218.102.17 (
talk)
12:51, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
As a separate edit: /* StandFast Bible Students Association */ Current citations unfortunately, mention nothing about Charles E. Heard et. al.
Although I am interested to read about Charles E. Heard and the StandFast Bible Students Association, really, the only two citations for this entire section are simply designed to point out flaws of Rutherford. I really would like to see some sourcing for any of the on-topic history alleged here.
108.218.102.17 (
talk)
12:51, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I have reverted a well-intended recent change by User:Mdmcginn, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, introducing Jehovah's Witnesses that early in the lead before providing any information about the development of the group assumes prior knowledge of the later group. Secondly, JWs also previously used the same names, so it is technically inaccurate to imply that only other groups have used the various names.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 13:44, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Since Jehovah's Witnesses are by far the largest and best-known successors/examples/affiliates/children of the Bible Student movement, that fact needs to be stated clearly in the first paragraph instead of implied in the third. What's a better way to say it? Articles don't need to be chronological; the most commonly-sought information needs to be first. Mdmcginn ( talk) 12:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
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Regarding this edit, it is inherently impossible to find an explicit statement positively indicating that they ignore something (beyond the period immediately associated with the events involved; i.e. 1930 would not count). However, they do frequently state in their literature that "Bible Students" is merely a name by which "Jehovah's Witnesses were then known" (an oversimplified misrepresentation), which in itself is probably sufficient to indicate that they ignore the continued existence of other Bible Students. That said, the part of the sentence adds little importance to the article and it can probably remain as is if other editors agree.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 01:52, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
An editor is claiming that his edits are being unfairly reverted. He is invited to calmly discuss his changes here without resorting to personal attacks. As there are separate matters involved, please reply under the relevant section for the separate issues, remembering to properly indent and sign responses.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The editor inserted an editorial opinion challenging estimates made by cited sources as unverifiable; such a challenge would need to itself be sourced. It might be the case that this could be resolved by better inline attribution of the other sources asserting the high percentage of those who left (which has been done). The article already acknowledges that there was an influx of new members during the 1920s. However, sources showing such an influx do not support any assertion that claims made in other sources are true or false.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 21:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
The editor also added a statement about the Jehovah's Witnesses denomination changing names so it would not be confused with 'fraudulent Christians', which is very clearly inappropriate in Wikipedia's voice. The statement is based on a primary source written decades after the events, and there is no indication that it was actually the reason given at the time for the change of name. Rather, the reason given explicitly at the time was to avoid confusion with the names of other Bible Student groups. If phrasing referring to other denominations as 'fraudulent Christians' is considered important enough to use at all, it must be clearly indicated as a direct quote with very clear attribution.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The editor also reverted several improvements to citation formatting and other Manual of Style edits.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Greetings. I noticed that you continue to make adjustments to specifically the edits I make. Not only on this page, but on several other pages as well. Though this is appreciated in some cases (for example, when I mentioned how they desired to be separate from Christians who would be fraudulent, you mentioned I should quote it from the book). However, even miniscule changes I make to an article you seem to want to change for subjective reasons which in some cases seems to detract from the article. I have mentioned this to several other editors and they have indicated to me this behavior as quite strange. We suspect that you seem to be targeting my edits specifically. Due to this, I am feeling slightly harrassed via you hounding. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Harassment I kindly ask you to stop or else I will be forced to report it. Thank you.
Now, onto the primary post of this topic. You seem to be the type that enjoys discussing the various changes of an article no matter how small. I myself am quite the opposite and desire to simply move on after a change is made. I rarely check the talk pages if my edits are small. However, I will explain the changes I make with this edit. For one, the book title I believe should be included. Why? For a couple reasons. Watchtower Society is used twice in the previous sentence. Using it again seems repetitive. Using a book title is a nice change, accurate, and specific. In addition, I'm going to add the full quote in context back in. This is for a plethora of reasons that I think you and the readers will enjoy. For one, it gives insight in to the progressive, liberal thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses in contrast to the very conservative thinking of the other Bible Student groups. In addition, it gives a further reason for the name change it self. It insinuates to us that if their knowledge of the Bible didn't increase then the name change wouldn't have even happened. This is significant information to know which again ties into the first point.
Your comments on if I should use Bible Student or not are fine. I've replaced it with they. To conclude, I do feel these edits satisfactorily explain why the name change was made. I'm quite happy with these minor edits and I ask that you please respect that in the spirit of Wikipedia (small edits from each person add up. It's my turn to contribute). I do sincerely hope that this concludes the matter. Thank you.
Sincerely, -Artemaeus Creed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artemaeus Creed ( talk • contribs) 14:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
And such corrections you have told me are appreciated. I mean that Jeff. But unnecessary reversions are unacceptable. You know that as well as I. See Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary. I quote: "It is usually preferable to make an edit that retains at least some elements of a prior edit than to revert the prior edit. Furthermore, your bias should be toward keeping the entire edit." In particular notice the subheading "Bad reasons to revert". "Do not revert unnecessary edits (i.e., edits that neither improve nor harm the article). For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse. Wikipedia does not have a bias toward the status quo. In fact, Wikipedia has a bias toward change, as a means of maximizing quality by maximizing participation. Even if you find an article was slightly better before an edit, in an area where opinions could differ, you should not revert that edit, especially if you are the author of the prior text. The reason for this is that authors and others with past involvement in an article have a natural prejudice in favor of the status quo, so your finding that the article was better before might just be a result of that. Also, Wikipedia likes to encourage editing."
What's comical is that I wouldn't even care if you reverted a few edits here or there, but you literally followed me and reverted all of them. It wasn't until edit warring for awhile that you gave in slightly on this article alone. Someone who has been on Wikipedia for 15 years should know better. Keep in mind, you started this, not me. You were the instigator. I was not the one following you around and inhibiting your contributions. It was vice versa. Due to this, future contributors will know of your behavior in order to maintain the articles integrity. It's something you brought upon yourself.
With respect to me talking to other editors about your behavior; Did you know that there are actually other websites besides Wikipedia? I know, it's really surprising. It's called the World Wide Web. Check it out, you can read all about it on Wikipedia.
My claim is biased? Not at all! Your sentiments are fundamentally flawed. Observing that one group may be more liberal than another group (as we so often do in politics) could hardly be considered biased. Within the article there is no mention of it being an "attack" on the Bible students. The quote is a point of view perspective from Jehovah's Witnesses, for sure. However, this is merely a quote indicating the reason for the name change. Nothing more. Any other observations are coming from your own bias.
I will direct you to here for further information. And quote it here as well: Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering. Bias may make in-text attribution appropriate, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that..."; "According to the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff..."; or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that...".
Since we are already attributing this quote to the Watchtower Society, then the quote itself is not against Wikipedia policy.
On the matter of the date (1993), I've found nothing to say that it's even required, however you insisted that it be included. In the spirit of Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary I will be setting the example for you. It will stay. I will also be keeping the publisher. Your argument about reader familiarity with source material (the book) is not something I remember reading in the Wikipedia policy. Care to share that with me? Otherwise, it's getting added back in. It's more specific and in line with the direction for biased or opinionated sources (see above). It's also a proper compromise between yourself and I.
With that, I hope that the matter will finally be settled. I have made the appropriate edits. No more reversions. Follow the Wikipedia rules. Move on. Case closed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artemaeus Creed ( talk • contribs) 02:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Please indicate which of the following statements best conveys the necessary point in a neutral manner:
Thanks.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 05:06, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
The second one is clearly the superior form. It is succinct, accurate, and does not confuse the issue. Vyselink ( talk) 06:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Even with the addition of the third option, the second one is still superior. Adding the name of the book in-text, when it can simply be footnoted as the source, seems superfluous. Vyselink ( talk) 06:21, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
The second one is concise and includes a direct quote. It would still be better if an independent source could be used describing that; in a way part of the paragraph is original research using primary sources. — Paleo Neonate – 15:30, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Actually Jeffro that's a good point. Can we realistically include a non-neutral quote neutrally? I'd say leave it out entirely, but if it must be put in then the 2nd option. Vyselink ( talk) 03:52, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
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I have asked a question at the Layman's Home Missionary Movement talk page about the spelling of the name of this group. It appears to be misspelled at that article and also in the Bible Student Movement article. Someone changed (corrected?) the spelling of the group's name in this article recently without explanation, but those edits were reverted. It should be fairly easy to verify. LTSally ( talk) 09:52, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I have deleted a number of statements within this section that are not supported by the sources cited. The extension of powers gained by Rutherford in votes taken at board level and at the 1917 convention was not done secretly. The change in by-laws were openly debated and voted. See "Light After Darkness" pages 5 and 6. There is nothing in that publication that quotes a petition saying "We, the undersigned, give the President of the Society a blanket vote of confidence", nor is there any suggestion Rutherford required a letter of explanation from those who so refused to sign. The reference to the expulsion of "the four Board members both from the Board itself and from the Bethel" on July 5 is not entirely accurate. Both "Light After Darkness" and Rutherford's "Harvest Siftings" mention the incident but disagree over what happened. The four were certainly evicted on the day — by Rutherford's account because there were fears of what they would do — but not expelled. All four were present in the Bethel dining room on July 17 when Rutherford announced he had replaced them on the board. The JW Proclaimers book claims the directors left Bethel on August 8. "Harvest Siftings Reviewed" (page 17) says Rutherford asked Johnson to leave Bethel on July 27 and the four directors days later. The story is sufficiently dramatic without beating it up further. LTSally ( talk) 09:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I have deleted the term "Restorationist" from the opening sentence and replaced it with "Millennialist". I'll copy below a discussion with User:Jeffro77, who disagrees with my view. Other opinions are welcome. BlackCab ( talk) 04:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Earlier posting begins: I'm not sure I can agree with this edit [1]. The two terms are not mutually exclusive, and the Bible Student movement is restorationist.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 03:29, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Assertion | Assertion defines group as Restorationists? |
Can be claimed? | Can be verified? | JWs make this claim? |
---|---|---|---|---|
"We are Restorationists" | Yes | Yes | Yes | No |
"We are a restoration of first-century Christianity" | Yes | Yes | No | Yes |
After having read the Wikipedia articles on Millennialism and Restorationism the latter is closer to what CTR believed and taught. In other words, I agree with Jeffro. The article on Millennialism outlines views some of which were neither held by CTR nor by any Bible Students. As I read it Restorationism seems to be the adoption of a claim and/or a belief that one has restored some or all of the original doctrines and traditions of those Christians living before the First Council of Nicea in 325, in particular the teachings and traditions held during the first century or so after the death of Jesus. Jeffro is also correct in the Adventist connection. But I don't want to seem to be disagreeing with everything BlackCab is saying so my opinion would be to use both terms in the article along these lines "was a Christian Restorationist with Millennialist leanings" as only some of the views in the Millennialism article were held by CTR. Would references be helpful? I can provide some if you'd like but please specify the topic and angle. As for the JWs I cannot testify as to their current beliefs because they seem to change quite often and I do not possess their publications. Pastorrussell ( talk) 16:10, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Bible Students are not adherents of
Protestantism. They are adherents of
Restorationism (Christian primitivism). The matter was previously discussed and should not have been edited without discussion. It has been
reverted back to Restorationism until the matter is discussed. Note
this section.
See
Talk:Bible Student movement/Archive 5#"Protestant"?.
See
Talk:Bible Student movement#Millennialist or Restorationist? Or both? (it will
eventually be here).
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
22:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I have trimmed the section dealing with the events of 1917 to become a summary of a new spinout article, Watch Tower Society presidency dispute of 1917, which was created to remove repetition at this article, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania and Joseph Franklin Rutherford. BlackCab ( talk) 01:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
The other movements mentioned in this article, some with their own articles, have the word 'Movement' capitalised. For consistency, would editors prefer that this article name also capitalise 'Movement', or change the others to lowercase?-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 13:32, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
There are absolutely no references for this entire paragraph. Although it probably is true, it is Wikipedia policy to not have information which has no reliable sources supporting it. If no one can come up with some good references, I think this paragraph should be deleted. If anyone is against this, please say so below and why. If no one is against this for good reason, I'll delete the paragraph is one week from now, 13/06/2010. Beeshoney ( talk) 17:44, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
No objections - Paragraph deleted. Beeshoney ( talk) 14:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Recently, a thread in a related article's Talk asked and answered that Bible Students contemporaneous with Russell abstained from warfare (though they submitted to conscription and did not object to all military service). That thread should have been linked here, so here it is:
Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 54#Regarding political neutrality and abstinence from warfare
.
Incidentally, here's another reference which tends to support the 'abstinence from warfare' point:
Note that the ref says "offering military service" (in other words, enlisting rather than submitting to conscription).
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
22:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
At the article
Jehovah's Witnesses, someone recently changed "1876: Bible Students founded" to "1879". This had been discussed in that article's past Talk and elsewhere, and should have been discussed again before being changed. I believe the Talk is better centered here, and hope it will not be quickly Archived (by the way, this article Talk is archived way too aggressively; take a look how many pages there are and how little each one has).
Anyway...
While 1879 marks the publishing of their flagship magazine (now
The Watchtower), there were previous publishing events as well as previous religious events throughout the 1870s. Notably, the Encyclopedia of Religion in the South, page 403, notes, "The [Jehovah's] Witnesses grew out of the Bible Student movement developed by Charles T. Russell (1852-1916) of Pittsburgh in the early 1870s." For this and other reasons, there seems no reason to use 1879 in an article rather than 1876 as the founding of the Bible Student movement (or of Jehovah's Witnesses). Watch Tower publications such as The Watchtower have noted the following timeline:
Did the Bible Student movement burst into existence with 30 congregations in 1879? Plainly, no. Thus, previous article editors had chosen 1876 as the founding since that year is a readily identifiable religious milestone: Russell was elected pastor that year (he had previously been 'chairman'), establishing that congregants considered theirs a religious congregation even if they hesitated to use the term "congregation". Historian Hans Hesse begins his timeline of Bible Students / Jehovah's Witnesses in 1876, noting "1876 Charles Taze Russell is appointed pastor by the Bible Study Group he founded" (see "Chronology: Development and Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses", Persecution and resistance of Jehovah's Witnesses during the Nazi regime by Hans Hesse, Berghahn Books, 2001, page 379). I have reverted that article back to 1876, and hope that the point would be discussed here before being edited again. See also Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 26#Origin of JWs.-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 19:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Previous comments seem to contain a lot of original research, bordering on synth. It should be noted that Russell's group was never absorbed by Barbour's, and Russell was never Barbour's disciple. Also, again, what matters more than publishing efforts is bonafide religious efforts; when did Russell's group act as a discreet religious group? I've bolded "1876" even though it is isn't bolded in the original texts...
I know that certain editors don't like Watch Tower publication, but the four preceding references all focus attention on 1876 and all use the term "Bible Students". Other Watch Tower publications make it clear that the term "Bible Students" is applicable for several years before 1879.
Even if he insists on discounting what Watch Tower publications plainly state, an editor cannot ignore what a verifiable reference states. Here are two which milestone 1876...
Other secular reference give an even earlier year, or at least imply it was earlier than 1879...
So, there is good reason this and related articles should look again at the early 1870s and focus on 1876 specifically as the origin of the Bible Students movement. By that year the group had become a discreet religious entity, having elected elders, having arranged to commemorate the Christian Passover, having begun preaching a unique message, having at least partially separated from other religions, and having not made themselves subject to any outside group. It would be good for editors who disagree to share verifiable references rather than original research on the founding date of the Bible Students movement.
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
20:43, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Trying to seek a consensus I would be willing to compromise for the infobox saying late 1870s with sources for the period from 1876-1879 as Jeffro suggested. The discussion seems to have become somewhat overly emotional and dogmatic and I apologize for my little share. The issue is merely one of facts all of which are in print. It seems there has been a blurring of the lines between when Russell began to teach in his church and the time when he was responsible for formulating what became (or became known as) a movement. 1876 is when CTR, (1) met Nelson H. Barbour, (2) was elected an elder in the Allegheny church, (3) prepared to sell his stores, and (4) started on a preaching tour with Paton and Barbour. A person who would have died on December 31, 1876 would not have been able to identify Russell as an independent minister embarking on his own movement. Although it is true that some of the fundamental views of the Bible Student movement were in place by that time, they were not those views entirely unique to Russell as these same views were also held to by other scattered independent and Adventist groups around the USA, England and parts of Germany which have no connection to the movement, nor even to the latter formation of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Those things which are unique to CTR would include (1) rejection of the Rapture and adopting the view of a spiritual resurrection which dates to 1878, (2) combining his restitutionist views with time prophecy which dates to 1877, (3) emphasizing unique interpretations on substitutionary atonement which dates to 1879, (4) splitting from Barbour and starting his own ministry and gathering members of the Herald mailing list to his "side" which dates to 1879, and (5) teaching the meaning of the types and symbols of the Jewish tabernacle and ceremonies which is very important because this served as the backbone to his entire system of theology and this dates to 1881. Some of the references to these last five points were reproduced above. I'll go through my references and prepare more for later today. Pastorrussell ( talk) 18:13, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
How does one add a footnote? What information should go there? I was initially thinking something along the lines of the following:
That's just an example to get us started. More detail than one line per year might be overkill, however others may disagree with me on that. Pastorrussell ( talk) 22:50, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I believe "1870s" is superior to "late 1870s" because the earlier term is explicitly supportable from references (see below).
Editors should note that two of the four refs above explicitly state "early 1870s", directly contradicting "late 1870s".
Does any ref explicitly claim "late 1870s"? If some refs claim "early 1870s" and some refs claim "late 1870s", would not "1870s" be preferable to either? Incidentally, reference works more commonly list
Bible Student movement (and
Jehovah's Witnesses) milestones such as
Russell's congregation chairmanship, election as pastor, and writing/editorial work (rather than his temporary association with
Barbour, which many works ignore altogether). Thus, mention of Barbour and 1878 was recently removed from the infobox at
Jehovah's Witnesses
.--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
18:11, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the alleged contended date for The Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return. I can't find any recent reference in WTS literature claiming that it was published in 1873. The following statements appear in WTS literature:
I'm not sure where the 1873 claim came from, but it was obviously wrong, and doesn't appear to have originated with the WTS.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 10:13, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Having re-read his own writings on the matter, it seems reasonable to infer that perhaps Russell wrote the pamphlet during the events of 1873/4 (and before 1876), although it is incontrovertible that the Object and Manner was published in 1877. If that interpretation is correct, the 1975 Yearbook should have stated, "...in 1873 twenty-one-year-old C. T. Russell wrote (and later published)...". The Yearbook contains another minor transcription error: Russell actually wrote "ideas generally as to the object and manner", but Yearbook quotes him as writing "ideas generally of the object and manner".
Thus, while it seems possible that Russell wrote the pamplet in 1873/4 and later published it in 1877, to me it seems more likely that the 1975 Yearbook simply erred.-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 22:54, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
The current article is quite heavily weighed toward Russell's developing eschatological chronology; the article somehow managed to completely ignore Bible Student theology regarding the soul, hellfire, biblical inerrancy, clergy, ordainment, and the holy spirit. I hope to do something on this, but welcome the efforts of others.-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 22:54, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Over a year ago Jeffro77 decided that Jehovah's Witnesses literature "does not acknowledge the continued existence of other Bible Student groups". When the unsourced opinion was deleted along with a reason and source, it was swiftly restored. The source given, namely the 1980 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, page 51 gives a clear example of the complete opposite of his opinion:
"Naturally, all of this was a big test for the brothers in France, Belgium and French-speaking Switzerland. A few, mostly in Switzerland, followed Freytag, who founded a sect with himself as “the Lord’s messenger.” With the financial support of his followers, Freytag later bought a big country house outside Geneva from which he ran his sect. It still exists in France under the name of “The Friends of Man.”"
So what is the justification for leaving in an unsourced, completely false opinion? Thunderbird L17 ( talk) 01:28, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I made a change for more neutral wording: /* Jehovah's Witnesses */ more neutral wording
Although, I didn't think the first half of the sentence seemed interesting in any way or more needing/deserving of comment than any of the other Bible Student groups, and considered removing it somehow. Then I read this conversation, so I understand there is some issue with claiming that JW don't acknowledge the splintered-off groups as existing or as legitimate, "heirs to the title," perhaps, to the historical title of, "Original Bible Students." So that helps me to understand why the comment exists in the article at all. That JW don't acknowledge the existence of the other groups is a bizarre thought to me, since most any JW will happily acknowledge such a fact. Just because they don't choose to document the histories of those and advertise them in their publications, doesn't mean they deny their existence. As is likely the case for each of the groups mentioned in the article, they feel that theirs was the correct path to take, and that the other paths were the wrong ones. For anyone to imply otherwise is ... incomprehensible!
As for the issue of sourcing, the very first sentence in this very same article declares (with citation), The Bible Student movement is the name adopted by a Millennialist[1] Restorationist Christian movement that emerged from the teachings and ministry of Charles Taze Russell, also known as Pastor Russell. Therefore, even *IF* only one group gets to claim the historical title of, "Original Bible Students," then surely it would be THE group which Charles Taze Russel started? By that, I obviously don't mean any group which choose to leave his core group (whatever the percentages); I mean THE original group, which continued publishing his magazine, and still is publishing it today. There doesn't seem to be anyone denying that Charles Taze Russell founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society, and then moved it to Brooklyn, where it is now clearly known as the worldwide headquarters of JW. These facts are plastered all over Wikipedia and anywhere else by anyone that has done any tiny bit of research on JW. To deny the historical lineage would require a LOT of citations! OK, that's enough time spent on this by me. :)
108.218.102.17 (
talk)
14:00, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the subsections about Goshen Fellowship and The True Faith Jehovah's Witnesses Association. These Jehovah's Witnesses splinter groups are appropriately covered at the relevant article.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
The WP Russellite page links to this one for, "the religious group". However, except for a quotation embedded in a citation, the term, "Russellite", is not mentioned on this page. Is this an oversight, is the term considered inapropriate, or what? Downstrike ( talk) 10:01, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
I made an edit under this section, with this note on the edit: /* StandFast Bible Students Association */ Removed inaccurate citation, moved accurate citation
First, I removed this citation (ref1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, page 119/ref), because the only possibly relevant text I could find on page 119, either isn't actually supporting the war bond indifference accusation, or isn't recording Russell's pacifist teaching, but rather quoting the Bible book of Isaiah:
I moved this citation to a more relevant position by Rutherford's name and ascribed indifference, rather than at the end of the sentence:
(ref"Could Not Talk of Loan", The New York Times, April 29, 1918,
As Retrieved 2010-03-02, "Rutherford, the President, sa[id] that the buying of bonds was not a religious question, and that the [IBSA] association did not oppose the purchase of Liberty bonds by the members"/ref)
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
108.218.102.17 (
talk) 12:42, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
108.218.102.17 (
talk)
12:51, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
As a separate edit: /* StandFast Bible Students Association */ Current citations unfortunately, mention nothing about Charles E. Heard et. al.
Although I am interested to read about Charles E. Heard and the StandFast Bible Students Association, really, the only two citations for this entire section are simply designed to point out flaws of Rutherford. I really would like to see some sourcing for any of the on-topic history alleged here.
108.218.102.17 (
talk)
12:51, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I have reverted a well-intended recent change by User:Mdmcginn, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, introducing Jehovah's Witnesses that early in the lead before providing any information about the development of the group assumes prior knowledge of the later group. Secondly, JWs also previously used the same names, so it is technically inaccurate to imply that only other groups have used the various names.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 13:44, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Since Jehovah's Witnesses are by far the largest and best-known successors/examples/affiliates/children of the Bible Student movement, that fact needs to be stated clearly in the first paragraph instead of implied in the third. What's a better way to say it? Articles don't need to be chronological; the most commonly-sought information needs to be first. Mdmcginn ( talk) 12:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
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Regarding this edit, it is inherently impossible to find an explicit statement positively indicating that they ignore something (beyond the period immediately associated with the events involved; i.e. 1930 would not count). However, they do frequently state in their literature that "Bible Students" is merely a name by which "Jehovah's Witnesses were then known" (an oversimplified misrepresentation), which in itself is probably sufficient to indicate that they ignore the continued existence of other Bible Students. That said, the part of the sentence adds little importance to the article and it can probably remain as is if other editors agree.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 01:52, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
An editor is claiming that his edits are being unfairly reverted. He is invited to calmly discuss his changes here without resorting to personal attacks. As there are separate matters involved, please reply under the relevant section for the separate issues, remembering to properly indent and sign responses.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The editor inserted an editorial opinion challenging estimates made by cited sources as unverifiable; such a challenge would need to itself be sourced. It might be the case that this could be resolved by better inline attribution of the other sources asserting the high percentage of those who left (which has been done). The article already acknowledges that there was an influx of new members during the 1920s. However, sources showing such an influx do not support any assertion that claims made in other sources are true or false.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 21:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
The editor also added a statement about the Jehovah's Witnesses denomination changing names so it would not be confused with 'fraudulent Christians', which is very clearly inappropriate in Wikipedia's voice. The statement is based on a primary source written decades after the events, and there is no indication that it was actually the reason given at the time for the change of name. Rather, the reason given explicitly at the time was to avoid confusion with the names of other Bible Student groups. If phrasing referring to other denominations as 'fraudulent Christians' is considered important enough to use at all, it must be clearly indicated as a direct quote with very clear attribution.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The editor also reverted several improvements to citation formatting and other Manual of Style edits.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Greetings. I noticed that you continue to make adjustments to specifically the edits I make. Not only on this page, but on several other pages as well. Though this is appreciated in some cases (for example, when I mentioned how they desired to be separate from Christians who would be fraudulent, you mentioned I should quote it from the book). However, even miniscule changes I make to an article you seem to want to change for subjective reasons which in some cases seems to detract from the article. I have mentioned this to several other editors and they have indicated to me this behavior as quite strange. We suspect that you seem to be targeting my edits specifically. Due to this, I am feeling slightly harrassed via you hounding. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Harassment I kindly ask you to stop or else I will be forced to report it. Thank you.
Now, onto the primary post of this topic. You seem to be the type that enjoys discussing the various changes of an article no matter how small. I myself am quite the opposite and desire to simply move on after a change is made. I rarely check the talk pages if my edits are small. However, I will explain the changes I make with this edit. For one, the book title I believe should be included. Why? For a couple reasons. Watchtower Society is used twice in the previous sentence. Using it again seems repetitive. Using a book title is a nice change, accurate, and specific. In addition, I'm going to add the full quote in context back in. This is for a plethora of reasons that I think you and the readers will enjoy. For one, it gives insight in to the progressive, liberal thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses in contrast to the very conservative thinking of the other Bible Student groups. In addition, it gives a further reason for the name change it self. It insinuates to us that if their knowledge of the Bible didn't increase then the name change wouldn't have even happened. This is significant information to know which again ties into the first point.
Your comments on if I should use Bible Student or not are fine. I've replaced it with they. To conclude, I do feel these edits satisfactorily explain why the name change was made. I'm quite happy with these minor edits and I ask that you please respect that in the spirit of Wikipedia (small edits from each person add up. It's my turn to contribute). I do sincerely hope that this concludes the matter. Thank you.
Sincerely, -Artemaeus Creed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artemaeus Creed ( talk • contribs) 14:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
And such corrections you have told me are appreciated. I mean that Jeff. But unnecessary reversions are unacceptable. You know that as well as I. See Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary. I quote: "It is usually preferable to make an edit that retains at least some elements of a prior edit than to revert the prior edit. Furthermore, your bias should be toward keeping the entire edit." In particular notice the subheading "Bad reasons to revert". "Do not revert unnecessary edits (i.e., edits that neither improve nor harm the article). For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse. Wikipedia does not have a bias toward the status quo. In fact, Wikipedia has a bias toward change, as a means of maximizing quality by maximizing participation. Even if you find an article was slightly better before an edit, in an area where opinions could differ, you should not revert that edit, especially if you are the author of the prior text. The reason for this is that authors and others with past involvement in an article have a natural prejudice in favor of the status quo, so your finding that the article was better before might just be a result of that. Also, Wikipedia likes to encourage editing."
What's comical is that I wouldn't even care if you reverted a few edits here or there, but you literally followed me and reverted all of them. It wasn't until edit warring for awhile that you gave in slightly on this article alone. Someone who has been on Wikipedia for 15 years should know better. Keep in mind, you started this, not me. You were the instigator. I was not the one following you around and inhibiting your contributions. It was vice versa. Due to this, future contributors will know of your behavior in order to maintain the articles integrity. It's something you brought upon yourself.
With respect to me talking to other editors about your behavior; Did you know that there are actually other websites besides Wikipedia? I know, it's really surprising. It's called the World Wide Web. Check it out, you can read all about it on Wikipedia.
My claim is biased? Not at all! Your sentiments are fundamentally flawed. Observing that one group may be more liberal than another group (as we so often do in politics) could hardly be considered biased. Within the article there is no mention of it being an "attack" on the Bible students. The quote is a point of view perspective from Jehovah's Witnesses, for sure. However, this is merely a quote indicating the reason for the name change. Nothing more. Any other observations are coming from your own bias.
I will direct you to here for further information. And quote it here as well: Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering. Bias may make in-text attribution appropriate, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that..."; "According to the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff..."; or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that...".
Since we are already attributing this quote to the Watchtower Society, then the quote itself is not against Wikipedia policy.
On the matter of the date (1993), I've found nothing to say that it's even required, however you insisted that it be included. In the spirit of Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary I will be setting the example for you. It will stay. I will also be keeping the publisher. Your argument about reader familiarity with source material (the book) is not something I remember reading in the Wikipedia policy. Care to share that with me? Otherwise, it's getting added back in. It's more specific and in line with the direction for biased or opinionated sources (see above). It's also a proper compromise between yourself and I.
With that, I hope that the matter will finally be settled. I have made the appropriate edits. No more reversions. Follow the Wikipedia rules. Move on. Case closed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artemaeus Creed ( talk • contribs) 02:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Please indicate which of the following statements best conveys the necessary point in a neutral manner:
Thanks.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 05:06, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
The second one is clearly the superior form. It is succinct, accurate, and does not confuse the issue. Vyselink ( talk) 06:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Even with the addition of the third option, the second one is still superior. Adding the name of the book in-text, when it can simply be footnoted as the source, seems superfluous. Vyselink ( talk) 06:21, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
The second one is concise and includes a direct quote. It would still be better if an independent source could be used describing that; in a way part of the paragraph is original research using primary sources. — Paleo Neonate – 15:30, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Actually Jeffro that's a good point. Can we realistically include a non-neutral quote neutrally? I'd say leave it out entirely, but if it must be put in then the 2nd option. Vyselink ( talk) 03:52, 18 January 2021 (UTC)