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This website says he was educated at University College, Dublin. Atorpen 23:30 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC) That page is gone, but this page says both [1]. Niteowlneils 05:14, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Bertie was not educated in/by UCD- attending a few lectures there given by other bodies would be the extent of it. Nor is he a qualified (Chartered,Certified etc) Accountant [unsigned]
The anonymous contributor is correct. Bertie was not educated at UCD. He just attended a few lectures there. (Following his standard, I have visited the Tower of London so obviously I am King of England!). The lies were finally exposed in Ireland some time ago and his website withdrew them, saying it was all a misunderstanding! Yes indeed. Whoever wrote it misunderstood what the truth is!
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Don't know about the UCD claim, but I remember the same question arising with respect to the LSE. It is pretty peculiar to state in someone's biography that they "claim to have been educated at ....". It would be better to remove the "claim" until someone can confirm it is true. There are a number of sources which suggest it is not true, eg. [2] [unsigned]
I think Bertie Ahern was actually born in Cork and family subsequently moved to Dublin. He is therefore a Corkonian.-- Ewanduffy 19:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
What happened to the picture in the info box of our glorious leader? CorkMan
The quotes section would be much enhanced if somebody can locate his famous (to me, anyway) quote from a Hot Press interview (must have been the late 80s) regarding his drinking, wherein he said something along the lines that he would be all right to drive after 8 pints of Bass (his favourite tipple of the time). For a while after Hot Press referred to him as Bertie "Mine's a gallon of Bass" Ahern. Bowsie Jnr 12:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Like all good irishmen <sic!>, Bertie likes his pints or two. But i though he didn't drink during lent, Ror ( talk • contribs) changed it to November when he abstains from the drink. I dont recall where i hearing it, and with a lack of source, i was pretty sure that it was lent, it would make more sense for it to be over lent as opposed to november anyway. Anyhow, i am going to refrain from chaning it back till either i can find a source, or some one backs it up. -- Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. Its possible that Bertie doesn't drink during lent as well, but I certainly know he doesn't drink during November, which is a Catholic tradition some people keep "for the Holy Souls". I will try to get a proper source for this from a newspaper (I know the Sunday Business Post mentioned it in a flippant manner this year). However, informally, I can tell you that I happened to have the oppertunity to be in his presence at an event last year and he mentioned it. Not a proper source, I admit.-- Ror 12:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Ahern abstains both during Lent and in November.
Lapsed Pacifist 16:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Does it strike anyone that the photo of Bertie and the randomers in Brazil is a personal ego trip and is neither a good photo nor relevant to the text around it? I propose deleting it in a week if no one objects.
Post from indefinitely-banned user removed. AnnH ♫ 08:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The sentence has been removed as vandalism. I was the one who inserted it, back on Apr 27, 2005. I was accidentially not logged in at the time, but it was not input as vandalism, whatever your POV about it. Personally, I admire the man, don't hate him at all, have no axe to grid. I was simply recording a fact as I see it. Since then one other editor added the 'Bertiespeak' moniker, presumably agreeing with me. Someone added that he stutters, and I removed that. The sentence has survived since Apr 05, presumably been read many times, without anyone feeling the need to remove it.
I meant that his speaking style is not inspirational in the sense of great orators such as Martin Luther King, Jr.. Examples are his speech at the opening of the 2003 Special Olympics and the May 2004 Enlargement of the European Union. Some of this is due to his accent and tone of voice.
Seperately, I was referring to his style of obfuscation, which he regularly uses in debates and discussions when he does not want to get caught in a corner. I was thinking in particular of a general (ie non-Northern Ireland-related) interview which he did with the BBC some years ago where no-one could interpret what his long-winded response to a particular question meant.
Although he hesitates, uses 'Aah', sometimes repeats a starting word, he does not sutter. But those things do detract from his speaking style.
So, I think the sentence should stay, do you now agree? -- Rye1967 00:38, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
This is'nt meant to be vandalism or anything like it, but .... seriously: how many of you boys and girls here in Ireland have noticed a strange relationship, both in personality and looks, between the following over the years?
Yours in the Force,
Fergananim
21:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Have removed Bertie from . There's nothing in the article to support the claim that he is notably pro-life. Maybe he is, but if so, please provide references. -- BrownHairedGirl 14:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
This article failed the GA noms due to lack of references, a large amount of citation tags, and a cleanup needed tag. Tarret 12:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Not a qaulified accountant
He is not a qualified accountant and it is appropriate to mention this as he has described himself as an accountant.
I think this is obvious. Tayana I understand you disagreed with my edits, which I disagree were "vandalism", and this is not aimed at you, but I would like to be clear about this section before my edits are written off as vandalism. Just look at this:
* Ahern is a poor public speaker; his tone and style of delivery is mechanical. When speaking off the cuff, he sometimes speaks haltingly. During debates and interviews, he gives indirect, vague, ambiguous or meaningless responses, a behaviour dubbed "Bertiespeak". In 2004, Joe Higgins TD described
Ahern's refusal to answer questions as like playing handball against a hay stack. Your hear a dull thud but the ball never comes back to you[27].
While you are correct in saying that Higgins' description of his elocution is cited, the fact that his public speaking is "poor" is not, and is most certainly an opinion.
* Ahern has few close friends among his political colleagues, but recent revelations [28] show that he has many supposedly non-political friends.
The choice of wording here is clearly trying to make a political point.
* Ahern and the Government misjudged the sentiment of the nation in arranging for a State funeral for Charles Haughey, which was largely ignored by the public.
Is this "Trivia about Bertie Ahern", or is it more POV pushing?
In the interest of improving the article and WP:BLP. I would like to hear someone else's view on this. Generalmiaow 00:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
From the recent history page we have demiurge edits of Bertie Ahern
Should demiurge be blocked as an editor?, on the basis that wiki is creative rather than censorious of others' edits? in accord with wiki philosophy. 194.46.173.253 19:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Tayana 22:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
In view of the size of this article, should we have a separate article, something like "Bertie Ahern alleged corruption controversy"? Mustafa Bevi 16:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
The formatting of the trivia section is pretty atrocious. I've changed the italics to quote marks in an attempt to tidy it up.
The quote in the first entry is simply the title of the article referenced for the entry, so I see no reason to have it there, as it distrupts the flow of the article, and can in any case be found in the reference. If someone wants to add it back in, could they provide justification here? Reveilled 23:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
can we get rid of the condemn/condone quotes? some obviously put the condemn one in to attack Bertie and the second was comeback..whats the point?, they're hardly important quotes by any stretch of the imagination plokt 22:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Don't think the new photo in the info box is a great one of Bertie, to be honest. The old one was much better. Irish goat 22:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Should the article make clear that he is NOT related to Dermot? Given the many Aherns that are related (last sentence of 'Early and private life'), it might be clearer to mention that Dermot is not one of them. 134.226.112.12 16:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I urge removal of Irish "versions" of names in general. Firstly, it's meaningless to translate names. A name is a name (though of course an individual is free to call themselves what they like, that's a different issue.) By this logic, anyone called Sean should have an English version of their name. Secondly, Bertie has never ever been known by any Irish name. These comments apply to all uses of Irish "versions" of names, not just the Bertie article. I'm all for encouraging the use of Irish but these names are a misguided gaelgoir's attempt to promote Irish and it looks silly.
I would have to disagree with you on that. I don't see how promoting the Irish language looks silly at all. In fact, Bertie Ahern has worked to get Irish recognized as an official EU language. As for usage of Irish names, on the official website for the Dept of the Taoiseach, there is a button to click for Gaelige, which lists the Irish 'version' of names, Bertie Ahern's name included.
But he never uses the Irish version of his name in reality (as is his right). Who decides which people should have Irish versions of their names supplied? Why not an irish version of Gordon Brown? And then should there be an English version of Eamon (O')Cuiv's name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Signor Eclectic ( talk • contribs) 22:16, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
Gordon Brown is Scottish not Irish so therefore having his name in Irish is rather pointless but on the otherhand Bertie Ahern is Irish and therefore he should have both English and Irish translation of his name. Pathfinder2006 ( talk) 18:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
On TG4 Nuacht (news) they always say Bertie Ahern, i've never heard any of the irish speakers call him anything else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.147.147.190 ( talk) 09:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Rwallirl 06:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)I have cleaned up some of the text to remove opinion from the text. It is still a relatively one-sided and negative sounding piece, which perhaps would be improved by some balance. Also, is it too long & detailed for the article on Ahern himself, should it be moved to a separate article?
There is nothing in the article that says the reason why he and his wife divorced is because he was having an affair with Cecilia Larkin,which contradicts his claims that the money he received was to help him through a difficult period in his life.Basically he got money because he had an AFFAIR,and due to that divorced his wife while his daughters were young. F A C T —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.239.70.13 ( talk) 15:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Given that Ahern is now daily on the front page of the Irish papers regarding this issue is it not right that this is mentioned in the first paragraph of his article here? I have added a few lines. Gael-wh 11:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
User Nwe by removing edits relating to Ahern's suicide remarks is asserting his viewpoint in contravention of NPOV. The remarks were controversial and were widely reported. That they "news for a day" implies that they were news and offended many, hence the publicity. To say that "barely anyone no(sic) remembers them" is an unacceptable individual point of view, contrary to NPOV The remarks are relevant, noteworthy and relevant and are reinstated accordingly. Octanis ( talk) 22:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
The remarks are also utterly irrelevant to the general biography of Ahern. This article should only give the most significant incidents and general detail of his career, not every single event involving Ahern that made the news. My assertion on this actually have nothing to do with any personal POV regarding Ahern, I simply feel that their inclusion makes a farce of Wikipedia guidelines and the article's general respectability. Nwe ( talk) 13:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
A biography reflects all facets, not just the favorable ones. 194.46.225.248 ( talk) 21:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
User Garda40 on 2 Dec 2007 is incorrect in removal of validly cited references to Ahern, that have been unchallenged for months. He provides no explanation for his reversion. 194.46.228.103 00:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I provided an explanation in the edit summary every time .If you don't choose to read edit summaries that's your problem .01:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC) . Garda40 01:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Given that this whole issue has had a definite beginning and end (for the time being), is it OK if it's moved from "The Future" to "Controversies"? If no-one objects in the next day or two, I'll move it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lampdat ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Ahern's children and granchildren are ultra peripheral to an article on Ahern and do not rate prominent mention in main text, if at all. They are private citizens, not in public eye and should not feature at all, as being irrelevant to Ahern's profile.
I moved the mention of his children and grandchildren's activities to a footnote and suggest that the reference should be removed entirely.
194.46.255.175 ( talk) 21:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
While a case can be made that his grandchildren aren't in the public eye , how exactly are his children not in the public eye with one being a successful novelist ( with a movie of one her novels coming out and writer of a US sitcom ) and the other married to the one of the members of Westlife.
Apart from that how exactly is the fact that someone has children peripheral let alone ultra peripheral to their article .
And a correction I moved the mention of his children and grandchildren's activities you moved the existence of his children and grandchildren and now want to delete the fact that he even has children , let alone grandchildren from the article , a fact that has been in the article since at least 6 Dec 2004 .
And do you even know the difference between twins and fraternal twins because there is a very big difference which you and your other IP addresses have repeated each time . Garda40 ( talk) 23:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
02:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
User Chwech in relocating quotes to Wikiquote removed some stated fact with valid citations, without comment. This is in violation of NPOV and is disingenuous editing. The quotes are central to article on Ahern and are reinstated accordingly. 194.46.238.32 ( talk) 00:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Octanis ( talk) 23:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
194.46.249.242 ( talk) 00:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I have moved the main quotes section to wikiquotes, they have NOT been deleted. Wikiquote is a sister project of wikipedia and contains a page for quotes for the relevant person. There is a link on the wikiquote page to the persons wikipedia article and vice versa.
The quotes section is rather long and all it is not relevant to the article, moving it to wikiquote helps reduce the length of the article which is already quite long. They are still many quotes scattered throughout the text and I am leaving these in place as they are relevant to those sections. If any editor feels some of the quotes from the Quotes section deserves to be in a particular section then they should remove the quote from wikiquote and move to the relevant section of the main article. Having a big long list of quotes is a bit trivia like and everything that Bertie Ahern says does not have be recorded there!
An anonymous user has reverted this change on several occasions, and been made spurious claims about "disingenuous editing" and also a claim that just because the quotes section has been there for a good while it shouldn't be moved. The is not a good enough reason for leaving the quotes section in place, we are always striving for improvement in wikipedia not being content with the status quo. Snappy56 ( talk) 12:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I also noticed that the quotes were arranged in a way that prejudices Ahern. By selecting small statements from different occassions and placing them after each other an affect of stupidity was achieved. AleXd ( talk) 13:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
This section contains alot of speculation and information about his current popularity. As far as I know Mr Ahern has stated that he intends to consider his future in politics when he turn sixty. He also mentioned that he may become involved in sport in some capacity. Previously it was speculated that he would be offered the Presidency of the European Council but he stated that he wasn't interested. Since a section called "the future" is by nature speculative can we trim this down to the bare essentials? The stuff about his popularity should be integrated elsewhere in the article or removed. AleXd ( talk) 13:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
To cite the President in a listing of a Head of Government in an inferior position is incorrect. The reference is irrelevant and is removed accordingly. Because there is a field for completion in an infobox does not imply that it is appropriate to complete it where protocol dictates otherwise. 194.46.187.135 ( talk) 01:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Therequiembellishere is abusing protocol by citing the Presidents, whom Ahern has served under, in an inferior position as though a Head of State is a subordinate position, analogous to a his deputy. This has been pointed out before but crassly reinstated by Therequiembellishere A Head of State is a superior office to a Head of Government and to cite Presidents in Aherne's infobox as edited by Therequiembellishere is inappropriate and reverted accordingly. 194.46.252.92 ( talk) 00:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
There no delicate way to be put this so I 'll just say it out straight but what on earth have US Presidents infoboxes to do do with the Taoiseach .The jobs and powers aren't comparable and neither is position in Government . Garda40 ( talk) 05:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Thr Irish Times have said that Brian Cowen is the 12th head of government since the foundation of the State in 1922. I quote from the Irish Times, which should settle this matter from a paper of record.
'When he is elected by the Dáil next month Mr Cowen will be the 11th person to hold the title of taoiseach since the Constitution was enacted in 1938. Before that the head of government was termed President of the Executive Council, a position held by WT Cosgrave and Éamon de Valera before he was termed taoiseach.' Irish Times 8th April 2008. Condix talk
More of a style question than anything, but I've noticed that the word "government" has been capitalized (and not) in many sections of this article. I looked at the context, but there doesn't appear to be any reason why it is capitalized in some cases and why it is not in others, with the exception of when the word is part of an official title. Can anyone explain this? OverSS ( talk) 17:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the image has been deleted without any warning . Garda40 ( talk) 18:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The other image I inserted was quite a good one. Is there a better picture that doesn't have Bertie Ahern squinting and frowning due to sunlight? Condix ( talk) 10:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
According to the GA criteria, the presence of cleanup banners states that the reviewer should quick-fail the article and that a full review is not necessary. I urge you to deal with the issues addressed by the cleanup banner before renominating the article (preferably after copyediting and peer review). Best wishes on your future work with this article, GaryColemanFan ( talk) 01:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Throughout the piece, this entry is vandalised; perhaps best to revert and tidy-up. Just noticed, and don't have time now. And obviously someone thinks they're a whole hell of a lot funnier than they are. My ==TotallyDisputed and ==blpdispute —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugorudd ( talk • contribs) 15:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The main image has been BertieAhernBerlin for some time now. Another user has added an image from Davos which isn't any better or worse imho, I've restored the Berlin image as the main one and added in the Davos one further down. If anyone has opinions on why this should be changed please discuss it here first before changing the article. Snappy56 ( talk) 07:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Some editors (including IP hopping anons) keeping removing the mention of who was President during Ahern's tenure as Taoiseach. There has been inconclusive discussion of this before. Btw, "as discussion on the talk page" is not a valid reason for removal. As far as I see it, the mention of who was President is relevant information after all the Taoiseach is appointed by the President. There has been mention of strange protocols but no explanation of what these are. Could those against the inclusion, please state clearly their objections as currently I cannot understand why they are objecting? Snappy56 ( talk) 09:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
The trivia tag says
![]() | This article contains a
list of miscellaneous information. |
The dispute says
{{ blpdispute}}
These are not licenses to delete large sections of the article. If the information is well sourced and well written it stays. If you have a problem with the structure and quality of the article then change the quality and the structure of the article.
Jmckeon ie ( talk) 14:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure this is worth putting in but here or should it have its own article is beyond my guess.It started last night. Sioraf ( talk) 21:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Bertie Ahern/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
It has a good amount of info, a picture, an infobox, and many subheadings. That's good. Could be GA. However, more links would be helpful. Green caterpillar 01:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 14:21, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This website says he was educated at University College, Dublin. Atorpen 23:30 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC) That page is gone, but this page says both [1]. Niteowlneils 05:14, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Bertie was not educated in/by UCD- attending a few lectures there given by other bodies would be the extent of it. Nor is he a qualified (Chartered,Certified etc) Accountant [unsigned]
The anonymous contributor is correct. Bertie was not educated at UCD. He just attended a few lectures there. (Following his standard, I have visited the Tower of London so obviously I am King of England!). The lies were finally exposed in Ireland some time ago and his website withdrew them, saying it was all a misunderstanding! Yes indeed. Whoever wrote it misunderstood what the truth is!
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Don't know about the UCD claim, but I remember the same question arising with respect to the LSE. It is pretty peculiar to state in someone's biography that they "claim to have been educated at ....". It would be better to remove the "claim" until someone can confirm it is true. There are a number of sources which suggest it is not true, eg. [2] [unsigned]
I think Bertie Ahern was actually born in Cork and family subsequently moved to Dublin. He is therefore a Corkonian.-- Ewanduffy 19:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
What happened to the picture in the info box of our glorious leader? CorkMan
The quotes section would be much enhanced if somebody can locate his famous (to me, anyway) quote from a Hot Press interview (must have been the late 80s) regarding his drinking, wherein he said something along the lines that he would be all right to drive after 8 pints of Bass (his favourite tipple of the time). For a while after Hot Press referred to him as Bertie "Mine's a gallon of Bass" Ahern. Bowsie Jnr 12:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Like all good irishmen <sic!>, Bertie likes his pints or two. But i though he didn't drink during lent, Ror ( talk • contribs) changed it to November when he abstains from the drink. I dont recall where i hearing it, and with a lack of source, i was pretty sure that it was lent, it would make more sense for it to be over lent as opposed to november anyway. Anyhow, i am going to refrain from chaning it back till either i can find a source, or some one backs it up. -- Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. Its possible that Bertie doesn't drink during lent as well, but I certainly know he doesn't drink during November, which is a Catholic tradition some people keep "for the Holy Souls". I will try to get a proper source for this from a newspaper (I know the Sunday Business Post mentioned it in a flippant manner this year). However, informally, I can tell you that I happened to have the oppertunity to be in his presence at an event last year and he mentioned it. Not a proper source, I admit.-- Ror 12:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Ahern abstains both during Lent and in November.
Lapsed Pacifist 16:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Does it strike anyone that the photo of Bertie and the randomers in Brazil is a personal ego trip and is neither a good photo nor relevant to the text around it? I propose deleting it in a week if no one objects.
Post from indefinitely-banned user removed. AnnH ♫ 08:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The sentence has been removed as vandalism. I was the one who inserted it, back on Apr 27, 2005. I was accidentially not logged in at the time, but it was not input as vandalism, whatever your POV about it. Personally, I admire the man, don't hate him at all, have no axe to grid. I was simply recording a fact as I see it. Since then one other editor added the 'Bertiespeak' moniker, presumably agreeing with me. Someone added that he stutters, and I removed that. The sentence has survived since Apr 05, presumably been read many times, without anyone feeling the need to remove it.
I meant that his speaking style is not inspirational in the sense of great orators such as Martin Luther King, Jr.. Examples are his speech at the opening of the 2003 Special Olympics and the May 2004 Enlargement of the European Union. Some of this is due to his accent and tone of voice.
Seperately, I was referring to his style of obfuscation, which he regularly uses in debates and discussions when he does not want to get caught in a corner. I was thinking in particular of a general (ie non-Northern Ireland-related) interview which he did with the BBC some years ago where no-one could interpret what his long-winded response to a particular question meant.
Although he hesitates, uses 'Aah', sometimes repeats a starting word, he does not sutter. But those things do detract from his speaking style.
So, I think the sentence should stay, do you now agree? -- Rye1967 00:38, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
This is'nt meant to be vandalism or anything like it, but .... seriously: how many of you boys and girls here in Ireland have noticed a strange relationship, both in personality and looks, between the following over the years?
Yours in the Force,
Fergananim
21:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Have removed Bertie from . There's nothing in the article to support the claim that he is notably pro-life. Maybe he is, but if so, please provide references. -- BrownHairedGirl 14:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
This article failed the GA noms due to lack of references, a large amount of citation tags, and a cleanup needed tag. Tarret 12:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Not a qaulified accountant
He is not a qualified accountant and it is appropriate to mention this as he has described himself as an accountant.
I think this is obvious. Tayana I understand you disagreed with my edits, which I disagree were "vandalism", and this is not aimed at you, but I would like to be clear about this section before my edits are written off as vandalism. Just look at this:
* Ahern is a poor public speaker; his tone and style of delivery is mechanical. When speaking off the cuff, he sometimes speaks haltingly. During debates and interviews, he gives indirect, vague, ambiguous or meaningless responses, a behaviour dubbed "Bertiespeak". In 2004, Joe Higgins TD described
Ahern's refusal to answer questions as like playing handball against a hay stack. Your hear a dull thud but the ball never comes back to you[27].
While you are correct in saying that Higgins' description of his elocution is cited, the fact that his public speaking is "poor" is not, and is most certainly an opinion.
* Ahern has few close friends among his political colleagues, but recent revelations [28] show that he has many supposedly non-political friends.
The choice of wording here is clearly trying to make a political point.
* Ahern and the Government misjudged the sentiment of the nation in arranging for a State funeral for Charles Haughey, which was largely ignored by the public.
Is this "Trivia about Bertie Ahern", or is it more POV pushing?
In the interest of improving the article and WP:BLP. I would like to hear someone else's view on this. Generalmiaow 00:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
From the recent history page we have demiurge edits of Bertie Ahern
Should demiurge be blocked as an editor?, on the basis that wiki is creative rather than censorious of others' edits? in accord with wiki philosophy. 194.46.173.253 19:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Tayana 22:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
In view of the size of this article, should we have a separate article, something like "Bertie Ahern alleged corruption controversy"? Mustafa Bevi 16:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
The formatting of the trivia section is pretty atrocious. I've changed the italics to quote marks in an attempt to tidy it up.
The quote in the first entry is simply the title of the article referenced for the entry, so I see no reason to have it there, as it distrupts the flow of the article, and can in any case be found in the reference. If someone wants to add it back in, could they provide justification here? Reveilled 23:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
can we get rid of the condemn/condone quotes? some obviously put the condemn one in to attack Bertie and the second was comeback..whats the point?, they're hardly important quotes by any stretch of the imagination plokt 22:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Don't think the new photo in the info box is a great one of Bertie, to be honest. The old one was much better. Irish goat 22:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Should the article make clear that he is NOT related to Dermot? Given the many Aherns that are related (last sentence of 'Early and private life'), it might be clearer to mention that Dermot is not one of them. 134.226.112.12 16:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I urge removal of Irish "versions" of names in general. Firstly, it's meaningless to translate names. A name is a name (though of course an individual is free to call themselves what they like, that's a different issue.) By this logic, anyone called Sean should have an English version of their name. Secondly, Bertie has never ever been known by any Irish name. These comments apply to all uses of Irish "versions" of names, not just the Bertie article. I'm all for encouraging the use of Irish but these names are a misguided gaelgoir's attempt to promote Irish and it looks silly.
I would have to disagree with you on that. I don't see how promoting the Irish language looks silly at all. In fact, Bertie Ahern has worked to get Irish recognized as an official EU language. As for usage of Irish names, on the official website for the Dept of the Taoiseach, there is a button to click for Gaelige, which lists the Irish 'version' of names, Bertie Ahern's name included.
But he never uses the Irish version of his name in reality (as is his right). Who decides which people should have Irish versions of their names supplied? Why not an irish version of Gordon Brown? And then should there be an English version of Eamon (O')Cuiv's name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Signor Eclectic ( talk • contribs) 22:16, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
Gordon Brown is Scottish not Irish so therefore having his name in Irish is rather pointless but on the otherhand Bertie Ahern is Irish and therefore he should have both English and Irish translation of his name. Pathfinder2006 ( talk) 18:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
On TG4 Nuacht (news) they always say Bertie Ahern, i've never heard any of the irish speakers call him anything else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.147.147.190 ( talk) 09:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Rwallirl 06:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)I have cleaned up some of the text to remove opinion from the text. It is still a relatively one-sided and negative sounding piece, which perhaps would be improved by some balance. Also, is it too long & detailed for the article on Ahern himself, should it be moved to a separate article?
There is nothing in the article that says the reason why he and his wife divorced is because he was having an affair with Cecilia Larkin,which contradicts his claims that the money he received was to help him through a difficult period in his life.Basically he got money because he had an AFFAIR,and due to that divorced his wife while his daughters were young. F A C T —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.239.70.13 ( talk) 15:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Given that Ahern is now daily on the front page of the Irish papers regarding this issue is it not right that this is mentioned in the first paragraph of his article here? I have added a few lines. Gael-wh 11:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
User Nwe by removing edits relating to Ahern's suicide remarks is asserting his viewpoint in contravention of NPOV. The remarks were controversial and were widely reported. That they "news for a day" implies that they were news and offended many, hence the publicity. To say that "barely anyone no(sic) remembers them" is an unacceptable individual point of view, contrary to NPOV The remarks are relevant, noteworthy and relevant and are reinstated accordingly. Octanis ( talk) 22:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
The remarks are also utterly irrelevant to the general biography of Ahern. This article should only give the most significant incidents and general detail of his career, not every single event involving Ahern that made the news. My assertion on this actually have nothing to do with any personal POV regarding Ahern, I simply feel that their inclusion makes a farce of Wikipedia guidelines and the article's general respectability. Nwe ( talk) 13:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
A biography reflects all facets, not just the favorable ones. 194.46.225.248 ( talk) 21:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
User Garda40 on 2 Dec 2007 is incorrect in removal of validly cited references to Ahern, that have been unchallenged for months. He provides no explanation for his reversion. 194.46.228.103 00:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I provided an explanation in the edit summary every time .If you don't choose to read edit summaries that's your problem .01:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC) . Garda40 01:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Given that this whole issue has had a definite beginning and end (for the time being), is it OK if it's moved from "The Future" to "Controversies"? If no-one objects in the next day or two, I'll move it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lampdat ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Ahern's children and granchildren are ultra peripheral to an article on Ahern and do not rate prominent mention in main text, if at all. They are private citizens, not in public eye and should not feature at all, as being irrelevant to Ahern's profile.
I moved the mention of his children and grandchildren's activities to a footnote and suggest that the reference should be removed entirely.
194.46.255.175 ( talk) 21:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
While a case can be made that his grandchildren aren't in the public eye , how exactly are his children not in the public eye with one being a successful novelist ( with a movie of one her novels coming out and writer of a US sitcom ) and the other married to the one of the members of Westlife.
Apart from that how exactly is the fact that someone has children peripheral let alone ultra peripheral to their article .
And a correction I moved the mention of his children and grandchildren's activities you moved the existence of his children and grandchildren and now want to delete the fact that he even has children , let alone grandchildren from the article , a fact that has been in the article since at least 6 Dec 2004 .
And do you even know the difference between twins and fraternal twins because there is a very big difference which you and your other IP addresses have repeated each time . Garda40 ( talk) 23:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
02:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
User Chwech in relocating quotes to Wikiquote removed some stated fact with valid citations, without comment. This is in violation of NPOV and is disingenuous editing. The quotes are central to article on Ahern and are reinstated accordingly. 194.46.238.32 ( talk) 00:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Octanis ( talk) 23:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
194.46.249.242 ( talk) 00:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I have moved the main quotes section to wikiquotes, they have NOT been deleted. Wikiquote is a sister project of wikipedia and contains a page for quotes for the relevant person. There is a link on the wikiquote page to the persons wikipedia article and vice versa.
The quotes section is rather long and all it is not relevant to the article, moving it to wikiquote helps reduce the length of the article which is already quite long. They are still many quotes scattered throughout the text and I am leaving these in place as they are relevant to those sections. If any editor feels some of the quotes from the Quotes section deserves to be in a particular section then they should remove the quote from wikiquote and move to the relevant section of the main article. Having a big long list of quotes is a bit trivia like and everything that Bertie Ahern says does not have be recorded there!
An anonymous user has reverted this change on several occasions, and been made spurious claims about "disingenuous editing" and also a claim that just because the quotes section has been there for a good while it shouldn't be moved. The is not a good enough reason for leaving the quotes section in place, we are always striving for improvement in wikipedia not being content with the status quo. Snappy56 ( talk) 12:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I also noticed that the quotes were arranged in a way that prejudices Ahern. By selecting small statements from different occassions and placing them after each other an affect of stupidity was achieved. AleXd ( talk) 13:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
This section contains alot of speculation and information about his current popularity. As far as I know Mr Ahern has stated that he intends to consider his future in politics when he turn sixty. He also mentioned that he may become involved in sport in some capacity. Previously it was speculated that he would be offered the Presidency of the European Council but he stated that he wasn't interested. Since a section called "the future" is by nature speculative can we trim this down to the bare essentials? The stuff about his popularity should be integrated elsewhere in the article or removed. AleXd ( talk) 13:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
To cite the President in a listing of a Head of Government in an inferior position is incorrect. The reference is irrelevant and is removed accordingly. Because there is a field for completion in an infobox does not imply that it is appropriate to complete it where protocol dictates otherwise. 194.46.187.135 ( talk) 01:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Therequiembellishere is abusing protocol by citing the Presidents, whom Ahern has served under, in an inferior position as though a Head of State is a subordinate position, analogous to a his deputy. This has been pointed out before but crassly reinstated by Therequiembellishere A Head of State is a superior office to a Head of Government and to cite Presidents in Aherne's infobox as edited by Therequiembellishere is inappropriate and reverted accordingly. 194.46.252.92 ( talk) 00:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
There no delicate way to be put this so I 'll just say it out straight but what on earth have US Presidents infoboxes to do do with the Taoiseach .The jobs and powers aren't comparable and neither is position in Government . Garda40 ( talk) 05:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Thr Irish Times have said that Brian Cowen is the 12th head of government since the foundation of the State in 1922. I quote from the Irish Times, which should settle this matter from a paper of record.
'When he is elected by the Dáil next month Mr Cowen will be the 11th person to hold the title of taoiseach since the Constitution was enacted in 1938. Before that the head of government was termed President of the Executive Council, a position held by WT Cosgrave and Éamon de Valera before he was termed taoiseach.' Irish Times 8th April 2008. Condix talk
More of a style question than anything, but I've noticed that the word "government" has been capitalized (and not) in many sections of this article. I looked at the context, but there doesn't appear to be any reason why it is capitalized in some cases and why it is not in others, with the exception of when the word is part of an official title. Can anyone explain this? OverSS ( talk) 17:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the image has been deleted without any warning . Garda40 ( talk) 18:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The other image I inserted was quite a good one. Is there a better picture that doesn't have Bertie Ahern squinting and frowning due to sunlight? Condix ( talk) 10:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
According to the GA criteria, the presence of cleanup banners states that the reviewer should quick-fail the article and that a full review is not necessary. I urge you to deal with the issues addressed by the cleanup banner before renominating the article (preferably after copyediting and peer review). Best wishes on your future work with this article, GaryColemanFan ( talk) 01:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Throughout the piece, this entry is vandalised; perhaps best to revert and tidy-up. Just noticed, and don't have time now. And obviously someone thinks they're a whole hell of a lot funnier than they are. My ==TotallyDisputed and ==blpdispute —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugorudd ( talk • contribs) 15:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The main image has been BertieAhernBerlin for some time now. Another user has added an image from Davos which isn't any better or worse imho, I've restored the Berlin image as the main one and added in the Davos one further down. If anyone has opinions on why this should be changed please discuss it here first before changing the article. Snappy56 ( talk) 07:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Some editors (including IP hopping anons) keeping removing the mention of who was President during Ahern's tenure as Taoiseach. There has been inconclusive discussion of this before. Btw, "as discussion on the talk page" is not a valid reason for removal. As far as I see it, the mention of who was President is relevant information after all the Taoiseach is appointed by the President. There has been mention of strange protocols but no explanation of what these are. Could those against the inclusion, please state clearly their objections as currently I cannot understand why they are objecting? Snappy56 ( talk) 09:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
The trivia tag says
![]() | This article contains a
list of miscellaneous information. |
The dispute says
{{ blpdispute}}
These are not licenses to delete large sections of the article. If the information is well sourced and well written it stays. If you have a problem with the structure and quality of the article then change the quality and the structure of the article.
Jmckeon ie ( talk) 14:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure this is worth putting in but here or should it have its own article is beyond my guess.It started last night. Sioraf ( talk) 21:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Bertie Ahern/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
It has a good amount of info, a picture, an infobox, and many subheadings. That's good. Could be GA. However, more links would be helpful. Green caterpillar 01:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 14:21, 1 May 2016 (UTC)