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It's mixed up. Tomic didnt win the Junior Aussie Open in 2007, he did it in 2008.
It should be mentioned that he had won the Florida Orange Bowl Tournament 3 times consectuvily. This should be mentioned because every time he is mentioned in the papers this feat is harped about. Apparently it is the most prestigous non grand slam junior tournament in the world. The papers might be talkng shit, but this should still be mentioned, because they are his only achievements to date.
What the hell? there is only a under 12 and a under 14 Orange Bowl so how the hell can you win it three times consecutively?, people need to get their facts straight before they should even contribute! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jah89 ( talk • contribs) 14:30, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Sandefjord
his father, jovan tomić, is montenegrin, and his mother, ady, is croatian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.201.67 ( talk) 18:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
man, you are talking sheet. his fathers name is ivica and he is croatian from tuzla, bih, ex yu. i know his relative who lives in zagreb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.3.61 ( talk) 21:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I have just given the article a much needed boost; it now has some interesting information about his junior career. However, I can't seem to find a decent picture, perhaps someone could work on that? 202.89.163.157 ( talk) 08:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
WILL HE PLAY FOR CROATIA?
please put articles and opinions about that theme. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.172.144.157 (
talk)
16:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
These are Bernard Tomic's OWN WORDS in the press interview he gave at the Australian Open on 20.01.11
http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/interviews/2011-01-20/201101201295505489338.html (scroll to the bottom of the page)
Removing this PRIMARY SOURCE and lying about his parents' ethnicity will not hide the TRUTH !
Tifetondu ( talk) 17:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems you have failed to read the article correctly. It is well known that Bernard Tomic is of Bosnian descent (his mother's side) as well as Croatian.
However, when asked about what languages he speaks fluently (which was what the question was about), he mentioned the Croatian language and cited his parents' part-Croatian background as the reason for this. It has nothing to with his part-Bosnian background, as illustrated by many sources - it is purely to do with the origin of his spoken dialect.
As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia (or familiar with it's history) would tell you, the Bosnian language was only established as an official standard in Bosnia and Herzegovina long after it's independence in 1992. The Bosnian language was never taught as an official language in Yugoslavian schools.
Jas315 ( talk) 03:08, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Another source referring to the descent of Bernard's family, rather than the origins of his language (which seems to have been deleted by Tifetondu):
"It was also at that time that, coincidentally, Guiney's wife Kate was teaching English to Tomic's Bosnian maternal grandmother."
(Fourth paragraph)
I advise that you stop vandalising the article. Thank you.
Jas315 ( talk) 06:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems that you have failed to read the interview correctly yourself and are inferring what is simply not stated by Tomic about the Bosnian language. FYI, the term "Bosnian" INCLUDES Bosnian Croats and there are no sources in the article verifying any other ethnic background but Croatian as stated by Tomic himself. Sorry, but having a "Bosnian maternal grandmother" doesn't mean that she is a "Bosniak" (Epic fail here !) but simply from Bosnia, as anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would tell you. Once again, "Bosnian" is not an ethnicity of its own, is not a constitutive ethnic group in Bosnia, and doesn't mean "Bosniak"
Spare me the lecture and false accusation about deleting your meaningless source, and just post a verifiable source in English to prove that Tomic is also of "BOSNIAK" or "BOSNIAN SERB" descent.
Otherwise I advise you stop misrepresenting and vandalising the article. Thank you.
Tifetondu ( talk) 06:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Bernard Tomic might identify more as Croat because his father is Croat named Ivica from Tuzla, town in northern Bosnia, while his mother is Bosniak named Adisa and is from Brcko, a town also in northern Bosnia.
PS: Bosniak=Bosnian just as Croat=Croatian in most situations, even if a Bosniak from Croatia mght be Croatian in a sense that he is from Croatia just as a Croat from Bosnia is a Bosnian in a sense that he is from Bosnia.
I hear you Absconded Northerner. As you have yourself removed the unsourced term "Bosniak" from the article today, you can see here again with "Zec" that the term "Bosnian" is still constantly associated and confused with "Bosniak" by most editors and Bosniak themselves who have absolutely no English or translatable sources to verify that Tomic's mother is Bosniak whatsoever. That's why Bernard Tomic himself specified both his parents "Croatian background" (not just his father) in his press conference, like any ethnic Croat expatriate would do whether their parents are from Croatia itself and/or from Bosnia. That said, I agree with your proposal and would like to satisfy both cases by simply using Croatian and Bosnian "origins" instead to avoid any more unsourced claim and confusion about the ethnicity of Tomic's mother. I doubt it will change much here anyway, though, at this unsourced myth has already taken a life of its own all over the Internet because of Wikipedia. It won't be long when some journalist will repeat it in an article after briefly looking at Tomic's page here, and it will come back full circle as a source, LOL !
Tifetondu ( talk) 18:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
The Category:Australian people of German descent, added in this edit on 4 August 2010 by Mayumashu, should be removed from this article. Tomic or his parents were never German, as far as we know. Being born in Germany before 2000 does not confer German citizenship, which is quite difficult to obtain. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 08:58, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
A source from the International Tennis Federation (which has been recently added to the article) shows that his mother's name is Adisa (along with the names of his father and sister) -
http://www.itftennis.com/mens/players/player.asp?player=100096396
As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would know, Adisa is a Bosniak name for females. Ethnic Croatian females are not given this name.
Articles from the Western world use the term "Bosnian" to refer to Bosniaks and people from Bosnia as a whole, as this is what the term essentially means. Most notably, they have used the term to refer to Tomic's maternal side of the family (predominantly his mother), so while it is common knowledge that Bernard's mother is a Bosniak, it should not deter the article from using the term "Bosnian".
For what it's worth, the term Bosnian Australian is used to refer to Australians with Bosnian ancestry (Bosniaks) and Australians who have come from Bosnia.
Also, another important thing to note is that all sources provided mention "Croatian and Bosnian" when referring to Tomic's roots. Tthe following Croatian news-read (which has also been recently added to the article as a source) does this -
"BERNARD TOMIĆ, 18-godišnji Australac hrvatskih i bosanskih korijena"
Translated:
"Bernard Tomic, the 18-year-old Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots"
I think it's time one certain vandal (signature starting with T) stops vandalising the article (for whatever reason, I do not know - most likely out of nationalistic bias) and takes every relevant source into account. Tomic is of both Croatian and Bosnian (Bosniak) roots. Nothing but the factual truth is meant to be added to Wikipedia articles - pure and simple. These sources only solidify this.
Jas315 ( talk) 03:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I did not propose the use of the term "Bosniak" - in fact, my post stated that the articles written by the Western world use the term "Bosnian", which includes Bosniaks AND people from Bosnia. Also, the term Bosnian Australian refers to Australian Bosniaks and Australians from Bosnia. Thus, I pointed out that the use of the word "Bosnian" was appropriate as not only would it negate any confusion when referring to sources but it would also be a factually correct.
Bernard's mother, Adisa, is a Bosniak, due to the fact that her name is a Bosniak name - and no Croatian female would be called such a name due to the fact that names (and especially last names) in ex-Yugoslavia hold a big value in terms of recognition among each other based on religion and culture. However, the term Bosnian or Bosnian Australian would suffice just as well.
Jas315 ( talk) 09:43, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I have also found an article which states that Adisa (Tomic's mother) was born with the last name Vatić prior to marrying Ivica (John) Tomic (Tomic's father).
"dok je majka Adisa, rođena Vatić, iz Brčkog."
Translated:
"while his mother Adisa, born Vatić, from Brčko."
http://sportsport.ba/tenis/tomic-stigao-beckera/59658
As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would tell you, Vatić is a Bosniak last name. The fact that both the first name, Adisa, and the last name, Vatić, are Bosniak names is not a coincidence. The best way to see this for yourself (if you are not as knowledgeable with Balkan names) is to search Vatić in Facebook which will return names such as "Azra", "Aldina", "Alma", "Emina", "Adnan", "Hajrija", "Lejla", "Enes", "Elvira", "Meliha", "Senad", "Haris", "Emrah", "Kenan", "Safet", "Tarik" and so and so forth. All of these names are Bosniak names and the majority (if not all, except for English nicknames) will be Bosniak names. As any ex-Yugoslav would tell you, no Bosniak (Muslim) will have a Croatian last name, let alone the majority.
The only way for Adisa to obtain a Bosniak last name upon birth is for her father to be a Bosniak himself - and considering there is a source in the article already stating that Tomic's maternal grandmother is Bosnian (Not Croatian, or Bosnian Croatian - Bosnian) - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that Adisa (Bosniak first name) is a Bosniak/Bosnian mother to Bernard. Whether or not English articles are used to posting the term "Bosnian" instead of "Bosniak" when referring to anyone from Bosnia - she is simply not a Croat.
I urge anyone other than Tife to consider this, as Tife is constantly choosing to ignore these sources and hard facts, resulting in a nationalistic article, rather than a truthful (and factual) one.
Jas315 ( talk) 10:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not going to edit it because it seems that there has been a great deal of discussion on this topic, but having thirteen footnotes at the end of that sentence is stupid, it is making the article look messy. I think perhaps the three most reliable sources would be sufficient. Mato ( talk) 13:33, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
After my request at WP:RFPP, Fastily has been kind enough to fully-protect this page for three days so we can sort this dispute about Tomic's parents' nationality out on the talk page, rather than edit-warring over it. Firstly, I'd like to say that, although I have no actual authority, I'd be happy to try and mediate this dispute (I have no horse in this race) so that, hopefully, a compromise can be reached that will be acceptable to all involved. To begin, I think it would probably be best if everyone could explain what they believe the article should say in regards to his ancestry and why (eg reliable sources) without making comments on other editors or their opinions. I'll shortly notify everyone who has expressed a recent interest in this particular section of the article. Hope I haven't come across too preachy, Jenks24 ( talk) 20:10, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Most of the comments above have no relevance here, since Wikipedia is about Reliable Sources, not phrases like "Everyone knows that". I've gone through the sources, and separated them out as follows:
These sources either state, or imply, a Croatian background:
These sources imply a mixed, Croatian and Bosnian background:
These sources say nothing about his parentage, and only mention his birthplace - they should be moved to a better place or even removed entirely, since nobody disagrees that he was born in Germany:
This source says nothing about his parentage, but is another source that he threatened to switch to Croatia at one point:
The first thing to note is that not one single source uses the term "Bosniak", which means to use it here is SYNTH and not allowed. Next is that not one source is clear about where either parent was born, although it's clear that his ancestry is at least partly Croatian and partly Bosnian (the maternal grandmother means he's at least 1/8 Bosnian).
My suggestion for the opening para is something like the following: "Tomic was born in Stuttgart, Germany, on 21 October 1992. His parents, John and Ady, are of Croatian and Bosnian descent, having left Croatia several years before Tomic's birth. They were both working in Germany when Tomic was born, before relocating to Queensland when he was 3 years old. His younger sister Sara is also a professional tennis player."
Hopefully that's non-specific enough to keep everybody happy - or at least, equally unhappy. Absconded Northerner ( talk) 08:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
The first quote is very vague. I think it's important to make sure no source is being taken out of context. Stripping quotes before and after one quote tends to give a whole new meaning to the said quote.
When reading Tomic's answer to the question, "Can you talk a little bit about your childhood. I read you were born in Germany. Do you speak German?"
It becomes clear that he's talking about the origins of the languages (other than English) that are native to him (especially when reading the conclusion to his response) - with the explanation of his fluency in Croatian being that his parents "have" "a" Croatian background.
"Well, I speak Croatian. My parents have a Croatian background. And German, I speak a little bit. Not fluently. I moved out of there when I was young. It's tough for me to learn. Yeah, I speak two languages."
Notice that he did not use the explanation "My parents "are" Croatian" in regards to his fluency in the Croatian language. Tomic has been in Australia since he was 3 years old - the kid knows how to coherently express himself. If his intention was to explicitly confirm his full ethnicity, or the full ethnicity of his parents, he would have done so. Simply put, the quote neither confirms or denies the full ethnicity of his parents - anything else would be an assumption, moving away from each and every other direct source provided altogether.
As for his father threatening Australian Tennis with the notion of Bernard playing for Croatia - well duh, that's a no brainer. Considering his Croatian father was his coach and mentor, there is no doubt that he would have had an influence to play for Croatia, bluff or not. Also, it is well known that Croatian Tennis is much more backed than Bosnian Tennis (even Amer Delic, who is a Bosniak, chooses to play for the U.S due to how poorly funded Bosnian Tennis is) - so if any serious tennis player had the option of playing for either Croatia or Bosnia, they would choose Croatia, full stop. I do not see how this sort of thing would be an indication of anyone's full ethnicity anyway.
And lastly, the article that has been translated (which refers to Tomic as an Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots) comes from a Croatian (.hr) website, published in Croatia. So if there was any real opportunity for a media organization to be nationalistically opinionated and point out the idea that both his parents are ethnic Croats, this would have been the perfect time to do so - but alas, they chose not to.
In the end, numerous sources make note of both Croatian and Bosnian origins. None of the sources use the term "Bosniak" or "Bosnian Croat" - which also makes sense due to the fact that these terms are only applied to people currently residing in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Considering both of Tomic's parents (namely his mother, who's ethnicity is under dispute) are from Bosnia and Herzegovina, but currently reside in Australia, his mother would be classified as " Bosnian Australian" (note the nationally recognized term "Bosnian"), as this term refers to Australians of Bosnian ancestry and/or Australians who have come from Bosnia and Herzegovina. You would not need to find out his mother's full ethnicity for this to be the case.
In response to Evlekis, it is of an impression that you feel very nationalistically opposed to the correct terms given, which comes off rather spiteful to Bosnians as a whole (Bosniaks or otherwise). I find it quite baffling that you would dispute the use of "Bosnian" (which is both a correct term and used in sources) and yet propose "Bosnian Croat", which is neither used in any source, nor a correct term given to people outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In fact, no where does it explicitly confirm that his mother was either born in Croatia or born with full Croatian ethnicity. There are sources however, that refer to her, and Tomic's maternal side of his family as being Bosnian (a correct and nationally recognized term). To conclude, I don't think it would be out of place to assume that you are "pushing" for a poorly evidenced notion that both his parents are Croatian.
Having said all that,
Absconded Northerner, I have no real problem with your suggested opening paragraph. As far as I'm concerned, it makes full use of all reasonable sources provided while neither favouring one side or the other - thus finally putting the issue to rest in a mutual manner.
Jas315 ( talk) 13:52, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I never said that my Wiki page could be used as a reliable source, it was just an a example to show you that you can't interpret my own words like you fit, or anyones for that matter. Look at my Wiki page as an interview with me, that was my aim to begin with, to show you that you can't use someones(in this case Bernard Tomić's) interview and interpreted like you fit. You just can't. I am pursuing the only source that is actually legit in this case, since that source are Bernard Tomić own words, a by God you should accept them. If he states: My parents have a Croatian background., then that is it. You should state that on his Wiki page. Who are you to question his own statements? I will not address the accusation about nationalistic POV, since it is nothing but slander and your wishful thinking.-- Eversman ( talk) 23:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
It is absolutely astoudning that the current version is based on only person's (Eversman's)extreme view (i.e. repeateldy using the one example how Tomic himself told the media that he is of Croatian backround etc). It is a complete oversimplification of a complex issue; and I believe it has no factual weight. Remember when at US open, the announcer incorrectly stated that Djokovic was Serbian - Djokovic corrected him, but took no offence, and said "it's the same thing really". Tennis players are less concerned about their background than we obviously are. So to hold what the 18 year old Tomic who came to Aus as a three year old says (to Australian media) as the paragon of truth regarding his background is uttelry simplistic and narrow-minded (especially when there are factual references that are very relevant in this example - I've provided one below (tuzlalive.com). It's amazing that he's parents' Bosnian descent is being disputed by some based on such simplistic, uneducated and quite undemocratic reasoning, totally contrary to Wikipedia's ethic. Zeddi30 ( talk) 06:13, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
This is an interesting source, as it's a website dedicated to exactly this issue. It specifically states "Bernard Tomic is an Australian professional tennis player who was born to a Croatian father, Ivica and a Bosnian mother, Adisa." I've never heard of this site before, but it looks pretty good. Absconded Northerner ( talk) 13:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
John Tomic Interview:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/06/30/tennis-wimbledon-tomic-idUKL3E7HT36820110630
Once again another direct quote, this time by Bernard Tomic's own father, defining the Tomic family as being nothing but of Croatian blood. These are not the words of some unrelated journalist, nor the opinion of some anonymous Wikipedia editor here. Sorry, but you don't identify your parents as having just a "Croatian background" when your mother is supposedly a Bosniak (Bernard Tomic Interview, Australian Open, 20.01.11), nor your family to just be of Croatian blood when your wife is again supposedly a Bosniak.
STOP READING BETWEEN THE LINES TO PRETEND OTHERWISE ALREADY!
Tifetondu ( talk) 09:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Bosnia-Herzegovina demographics (CIA Fact Book):
Bosniaks/Muslims (48%), Serbs (37.1%), Croats (14.3%), others (0.6 %)
source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bk.html
STOP CLAIMING THAT BOSNIAN = BOSNIAK, WHEN MOST BOSNIANS AREN'T!
Tifetondu ( talk) 09:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Common Bosniak first names do not always prove ethnicity in the former Yugoslavia.
Examples:
"Alisa" Maric (woman Grandmaster in chess) is a Serb.
"Aida" Ljubicic (wife of tennis player Ivan Ljubicic) is a Croat.
"Zlata" Filipovic (the Anne Frank of Sarajevo) is a Bosnian Croat.
"Jasmina" Tesanovic (feminist author) is a Serb.
"Damir" Dokic (father of tennis player Jelena Dokic) is a Serb.
"Zlatan Stipisic" (singer) is a Croat.
Same goes with Croatian and Serbian first names:
"Tomislav" Nikolic (politician) is a Serb.
"Zlatko" Lagumdžija (politician) is a Bosniak.
"Zvonimir Vukic" (footballer) is a Serb.
"Dragan" Cović (politician) is a Bosnian Croat.
Stop making assumptions and uncorroborated claims just on someone's first name...YOUR PERSONAL OPINION PROVES NOTHING !
Tifetondu ( talk) 09:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
You're clutching at straws, Tife.
Any Muslim-born person, Bosniak or ex-Yugoslav (Serbian or Croatian) will tell you that Adisa is not a Serbian or Croatian name. If you said otherwise, they would laugh at you. The only way for a person to obtain such a name is through marriage. Names in the Balkans are a big deal when identifying a person by his/her religion/cultural heritage, there is no "lee-way" like there is in Australia.
Nevertheless, as pointed out before, Adisa was born Adisa Vatić - Vatić is a Bosniak last name.
Translated:
"while his mother Adisa, born Vatić, from Brčko."
http://sportsport.ba/tenis/tomic-stigao-beckera/59658
The fact that both of her birth names are Bosniak only points to one thing.
However, there are no sources for any of these claims regarding the heritage of all names, no matter how much a person from ex-Yugoslavia would know and recognize (and I guarantee those from ex-Yugoslavia reading this will). Wikipedia simply does not work without primary sources (note: primary, not secondary sources like heresay from his Croatian father).
As far as I'm concerned, as much as I would have preferred Absconded's proposed opening paragraph due to the fact that it favours neither side - the opening paragraph agreed upon by everyone else is fine enough. The issue, for the moment, has been settled with the best possible compromise.
Jas315 ( talk) 01:02, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad to see that agreement was reached, but I see that some individuals are still not giving up their intentions, especially Bosnian users. I do not understand why those individuals feel so threatened by the statement of Bernard Tomić or his father, where they declare Tomić's family Croatian origin. Do you really think that by hiding that statement you can hide the truth? I have to agree with Jenks24 when he says that Tomic's opinion on the issue is completely relevant and the subject's opinion on such a clearly divisive issue must be taken into account. Any user who governs Wiki for a longer period of time should know this.-- Eversman ( talk) 11:12, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm not going to start an edit war, even one where consensus has recently been established, so I've initiated this discussion on AN/I. Absconded Northerner ( talk) 01:49, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
This is quite simple: the source says Croatia, so the article should say Croatia. This isn't an article about the history of the Balkans, nor is it the place for personal opinions and WP:SYNTH. Unless you can find a source that mentions Yugoslavia, leave it saying Croatia. Absconded Northerner ( talk) 16:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
OK, I just now noteced what happend during my abscence and I will like to leave two notes:
A source has now been added to support the claim that his parents originated from Yugoslavia. For everyone's information, it is stated on the fourth paragraph. Evlekis (Евлекис) ( argue) 12:18, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
On the Gold Coast it is a common rumour that Bernard Tomic is actually 2 years older than he claims (21 years old - not 19). A piece of the supporting evidence for this is the car which he recieved on his birthday - the liscence plate stating BTO21 (Benard Tomic 21). http://www.goldcoast.com.au/images/uploadedfiles/editorial/pictures/2012/01/26/TOMIC-HOLES-UP-AT-HOME.jpg
There aren't any trusted sources (news stories/quotes from family etc.) for this as of yet. But as Tomic's fame continues to grow it will likely pop up more often. Am interested if anyone else has more information on the subject. Thanks. Pierricbross ( talk) 08:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
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Under "Junior career" we have "...he qualified for the Sunsmart 18 and Under Canterbury Championships in New Zealand". Under what? The source is dead. HiLo48 ( talk) 06:59, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I've never heard his name said as it is indicated with the IPA. Instead of the o corresponding to the vowel in fraud, I've head it correspond to the vowel in bomb. The vowel /ɒ/ not /ɔ:/ Hollth ( talk) 03:18, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
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It's mixed up. Tomic didnt win the Junior Aussie Open in 2007, he did it in 2008.
It should be mentioned that he had won the Florida Orange Bowl Tournament 3 times consectuvily. This should be mentioned because every time he is mentioned in the papers this feat is harped about. Apparently it is the most prestigous non grand slam junior tournament in the world. The papers might be talkng shit, but this should still be mentioned, because they are his only achievements to date.
What the hell? there is only a under 12 and a under 14 Orange Bowl so how the hell can you win it three times consecutively?, people need to get their facts straight before they should even contribute! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jah89 ( talk • contribs) 14:30, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Sandefjord
his father, jovan tomić, is montenegrin, and his mother, ady, is croatian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.201.67 ( talk) 18:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
man, you are talking sheet. his fathers name is ivica and he is croatian from tuzla, bih, ex yu. i know his relative who lives in zagreb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.3.61 ( talk) 21:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I have just given the article a much needed boost; it now has some interesting information about his junior career. However, I can't seem to find a decent picture, perhaps someone could work on that? 202.89.163.157 ( talk) 08:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
WILL HE PLAY FOR CROATIA?
please put articles and opinions about that theme. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.172.144.157 (
talk)
16:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
These are Bernard Tomic's OWN WORDS in the press interview he gave at the Australian Open on 20.01.11
http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/interviews/2011-01-20/201101201295505489338.html (scroll to the bottom of the page)
Removing this PRIMARY SOURCE and lying about his parents' ethnicity will not hide the TRUTH !
Tifetondu ( talk) 17:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems you have failed to read the article correctly. It is well known that Bernard Tomic is of Bosnian descent (his mother's side) as well as Croatian.
However, when asked about what languages he speaks fluently (which was what the question was about), he mentioned the Croatian language and cited his parents' part-Croatian background as the reason for this. It has nothing to with his part-Bosnian background, as illustrated by many sources - it is purely to do with the origin of his spoken dialect.
As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia (or familiar with it's history) would tell you, the Bosnian language was only established as an official standard in Bosnia and Herzegovina long after it's independence in 1992. The Bosnian language was never taught as an official language in Yugoslavian schools.
Jas315 ( talk) 03:08, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Another source referring to the descent of Bernard's family, rather than the origins of his language (which seems to have been deleted by Tifetondu):
"It was also at that time that, coincidentally, Guiney's wife Kate was teaching English to Tomic's Bosnian maternal grandmother."
(Fourth paragraph)
I advise that you stop vandalising the article. Thank you.
Jas315 ( talk) 06:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems that you have failed to read the interview correctly yourself and are inferring what is simply not stated by Tomic about the Bosnian language. FYI, the term "Bosnian" INCLUDES Bosnian Croats and there are no sources in the article verifying any other ethnic background but Croatian as stated by Tomic himself. Sorry, but having a "Bosnian maternal grandmother" doesn't mean that she is a "Bosniak" (Epic fail here !) but simply from Bosnia, as anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would tell you. Once again, "Bosnian" is not an ethnicity of its own, is not a constitutive ethnic group in Bosnia, and doesn't mean "Bosniak"
Spare me the lecture and false accusation about deleting your meaningless source, and just post a verifiable source in English to prove that Tomic is also of "BOSNIAK" or "BOSNIAN SERB" descent.
Otherwise I advise you stop misrepresenting and vandalising the article. Thank you.
Tifetondu ( talk) 06:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Bernard Tomic might identify more as Croat because his father is Croat named Ivica from Tuzla, town in northern Bosnia, while his mother is Bosniak named Adisa and is from Brcko, a town also in northern Bosnia.
PS: Bosniak=Bosnian just as Croat=Croatian in most situations, even if a Bosniak from Croatia mght be Croatian in a sense that he is from Croatia just as a Croat from Bosnia is a Bosnian in a sense that he is from Bosnia.
I hear you Absconded Northerner. As you have yourself removed the unsourced term "Bosniak" from the article today, you can see here again with "Zec" that the term "Bosnian" is still constantly associated and confused with "Bosniak" by most editors and Bosniak themselves who have absolutely no English or translatable sources to verify that Tomic's mother is Bosniak whatsoever. That's why Bernard Tomic himself specified both his parents "Croatian background" (not just his father) in his press conference, like any ethnic Croat expatriate would do whether their parents are from Croatia itself and/or from Bosnia. That said, I agree with your proposal and would like to satisfy both cases by simply using Croatian and Bosnian "origins" instead to avoid any more unsourced claim and confusion about the ethnicity of Tomic's mother. I doubt it will change much here anyway, though, at this unsourced myth has already taken a life of its own all over the Internet because of Wikipedia. It won't be long when some journalist will repeat it in an article after briefly looking at Tomic's page here, and it will come back full circle as a source, LOL !
Tifetondu ( talk) 18:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
The Category:Australian people of German descent, added in this edit on 4 August 2010 by Mayumashu, should be removed from this article. Tomic or his parents were never German, as far as we know. Being born in Germany before 2000 does not confer German citizenship, which is quite difficult to obtain. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 08:58, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
A source from the International Tennis Federation (which has been recently added to the article) shows that his mother's name is Adisa (along with the names of his father and sister) -
http://www.itftennis.com/mens/players/player.asp?player=100096396
As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would know, Adisa is a Bosniak name for females. Ethnic Croatian females are not given this name.
Articles from the Western world use the term "Bosnian" to refer to Bosniaks and people from Bosnia as a whole, as this is what the term essentially means. Most notably, they have used the term to refer to Tomic's maternal side of the family (predominantly his mother), so while it is common knowledge that Bernard's mother is a Bosniak, it should not deter the article from using the term "Bosnian".
For what it's worth, the term Bosnian Australian is used to refer to Australians with Bosnian ancestry (Bosniaks) and Australians who have come from Bosnia.
Also, another important thing to note is that all sources provided mention "Croatian and Bosnian" when referring to Tomic's roots. Tthe following Croatian news-read (which has also been recently added to the article as a source) does this -
"BERNARD TOMIĆ, 18-godišnji Australac hrvatskih i bosanskih korijena"
Translated:
"Bernard Tomic, the 18-year-old Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots"
I think it's time one certain vandal (signature starting with T) stops vandalising the article (for whatever reason, I do not know - most likely out of nationalistic bias) and takes every relevant source into account. Tomic is of both Croatian and Bosnian (Bosniak) roots. Nothing but the factual truth is meant to be added to Wikipedia articles - pure and simple. These sources only solidify this.
Jas315 ( talk) 03:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I did not propose the use of the term "Bosniak" - in fact, my post stated that the articles written by the Western world use the term "Bosnian", which includes Bosniaks AND people from Bosnia. Also, the term Bosnian Australian refers to Australian Bosniaks and Australians from Bosnia. Thus, I pointed out that the use of the word "Bosnian" was appropriate as not only would it negate any confusion when referring to sources but it would also be a factually correct.
Bernard's mother, Adisa, is a Bosniak, due to the fact that her name is a Bosniak name - and no Croatian female would be called such a name due to the fact that names (and especially last names) in ex-Yugoslavia hold a big value in terms of recognition among each other based on religion and culture. However, the term Bosnian or Bosnian Australian would suffice just as well.
Jas315 ( talk) 09:43, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I have also found an article which states that Adisa (Tomic's mother) was born with the last name Vatić prior to marrying Ivica (John) Tomic (Tomic's father).
"dok je majka Adisa, rođena Vatić, iz Brčkog."
Translated:
"while his mother Adisa, born Vatić, from Brčko."
http://sportsport.ba/tenis/tomic-stigao-beckera/59658
As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would tell you, Vatić is a Bosniak last name. The fact that both the first name, Adisa, and the last name, Vatić, are Bosniak names is not a coincidence. The best way to see this for yourself (if you are not as knowledgeable with Balkan names) is to search Vatić in Facebook which will return names such as "Azra", "Aldina", "Alma", "Emina", "Adnan", "Hajrija", "Lejla", "Enes", "Elvira", "Meliha", "Senad", "Haris", "Emrah", "Kenan", "Safet", "Tarik" and so and so forth. All of these names are Bosniak names and the majority (if not all, except for English nicknames) will be Bosniak names. As any ex-Yugoslav would tell you, no Bosniak (Muslim) will have a Croatian last name, let alone the majority.
The only way for Adisa to obtain a Bosniak last name upon birth is for her father to be a Bosniak himself - and considering there is a source in the article already stating that Tomic's maternal grandmother is Bosnian (Not Croatian, or Bosnian Croatian - Bosnian) - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that Adisa (Bosniak first name) is a Bosniak/Bosnian mother to Bernard. Whether or not English articles are used to posting the term "Bosnian" instead of "Bosniak" when referring to anyone from Bosnia - she is simply not a Croat.
I urge anyone other than Tife to consider this, as Tife is constantly choosing to ignore these sources and hard facts, resulting in a nationalistic article, rather than a truthful (and factual) one.
Jas315 ( talk) 10:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not going to edit it because it seems that there has been a great deal of discussion on this topic, but having thirteen footnotes at the end of that sentence is stupid, it is making the article look messy. I think perhaps the three most reliable sources would be sufficient. Mato ( talk) 13:33, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
After my request at WP:RFPP, Fastily has been kind enough to fully-protect this page for three days so we can sort this dispute about Tomic's parents' nationality out on the talk page, rather than edit-warring over it. Firstly, I'd like to say that, although I have no actual authority, I'd be happy to try and mediate this dispute (I have no horse in this race) so that, hopefully, a compromise can be reached that will be acceptable to all involved. To begin, I think it would probably be best if everyone could explain what they believe the article should say in regards to his ancestry and why (eg reliable sources) without making comments on other editors or their opinions. I'll shortly notify everyone who has expressed a recent interest in this particular section of the article. Hope I haven't come across too preachy, Jenks24 ( talk) 20:10, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Most of the comments above have no relevance here, since Wikipedia is about Reliable Sources, not phrases like "Everyone knows that". I've gone through the sources, and separated them out as follows:
These sources either state, or imply, a Croatian background:
These sources imply a mixed, Croatian and Bosnian background:
These sources say nothing about his parentage, and only mention his birthplace - they should be moved to a better place or even removed entirely, since nobody disagrees that he was born in Germany:
This source says nothing about his parentage, but is another source that he threatened to switch to Croatia at one point:
The first thing to note is that not one single source uses the term "Bosniak", which means to use it here is SYNTH and not allowed. Next is that not one source is clear about where either parent was born, although it's clear that his ancestry is at least partly Croatian and partly Bosnian (the maternal grandmother means he's at least 1/8 Bosnian).
My suggestion for the opening para is something like the following: "Tomic was born in Stuttgart, Germany, on 21 October 1992. His parents, John and Ady, are of Croatian and Bosnian descent, having left Croatia several years before Tomic's birth. They were both working in Germany when Tomic was born, before relocating to Queensland when he was 3 years old. His younger sister Sara is also a professional tennis player."
Hopefully that's non-specific enough to keep everybody happy - or at least, equally unhappy. Absconded Northerner ( talk) 08:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
The first quote is very vague. I think it's important to make sure no source is being taken out of context. Stripping quotes before and after one quote tends to give a whole new meaning to the said quote.
When reading Tomic's answer to the question, "Can you talk a little bit about your childhood. I read you were born in Germany. Do you speak German?"
It becomes clear that he's talking about the origins of the languages (other than English) that are native to him (especially when reading the conclusion to his response) - with the explanation of his fluency in Croatian being that his parents "have" "a" Croatian background.
"Well, I speak Croatian. My parents have a Croatian background. And German, I speak a little bit. Not fluently. I moved out of there when I was young. It's tough for me to learn. Yeah, I speak two languages."
Notice that he did not use the explanation "My parents "are" Croatian" in regards to his fluency in the Croatian language. Tomic has been in Australia since he was 3 years old - the kid knows how to coherently express himself. If his intention was to explicitly confirm his full ethnicity, or the full ethnicity of his parents, he would have done so. Simply put, the quote neither confirms or denies the full ethnicity of his parents - anything else would be an assumption, moving away from each and every other direct source provided altogether.
As for his father threatening Australian Tennis with the notion of Bernard playing for Croatia - well duh, that's a no brainer. Considering his Croatian father was his coach and mentor, there is no doubt that he would have had an influence to play for Croatia, bluff or not. Also, it is well known that Croatian Tennis is much more backed than Bosnian Tennis (even Amer Delic, who is a Bosniak, chooses to play for the U.S due to how poorly funded Bosnian Tennis is) - so if any serious tennis player had the option of playing for either Croatia or Bosnia, they would choose Croatia, full stop. I do not see how this sort of thing would be an indication of anyone's full ethnicity anyway.
And lastly, the article that has been translated (which refers to Tomic as an Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots) comes from a Croatian (.hr) website, published in Croatia. So if there was any real opportunity for a media organization to be nationalistically opinionated and point out the idea that both his parents are ethnic Croats, this would have been the perfect time to do so - but alas, they chose not to.
In the end, numerous sources make note of both Croatian and Bosnian origins. None of the sources use the term "Bosniak" or "Bosnian Croat" - which also makes sense due to the fact that these terms are only applied to people currently residing in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Considering both of Tomic's parents (namely his mother, who's ethnicity is under dispute) are from Bosnia and Herzegovina, but currently reside in Australia, his mother would be classified as " Bosnian Australian" (note the nationally recognized term "Bosnian"), as this term refers to Australians of Bosnian ancestry and/or Australians who have come from Bosnia and Herzegovina. You would not need to find out his mother's full ethnicity for this to be the case.
In response to Evlekis, it is of an impression that you feel very nationalistically opposed to the correct terms given, which comes off rather spiteful to Bosnians as a whole (Bosniaks or otherwise). I find it quite baffling that you would dispute the use of "Bosnian" (which is both a correct term and used in sources) and yet propose "Bosnian Croat", which is neither used in any source, nor a correct term given to people outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In fact, no where does it explicitly confirm that his mother was either born in Croatia or born with full Croatian ethnicity. There are sources however, that refer to her, and Tomic's maternal side of his family as being Bosnian (a correct and nationally recognized term). To conclude, I don't think it would be out of place to assume that you are "pushing" for a poorly evidenced notion that both his parents are Croatian.
Having said all that,
Absconded Northerner, I have no real problem with your suggested opening paragraph. As far as I'm concerned, it makes full use of all reasonable sources provided while neither favouring one side or the other - thus finally putting the issue to rest in a mutual manner.
Jas315 ( talk) 13:52, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I never said that my Wiki page could be used as a reliable source, it was just an a example to show you that you can't interpret my own words like you fit, or anyones for that matter. Look at my Wiki page as an interview with me, that was my aim to begin with, to show you that you can't use someones(in this case Bernard Tomić's) interview and interpreted like you fit. You just can't. I am pursuing the only source that is actually legit in this case, since that source are Bernard Tomić own words, a by God you should accept them. If he states: My parents have a Croatian background., then that is it. You should state that on his Wiki page. Who are you to question his own statements? I will not address the accusation about nationalistic POV, since it is nothing but slander and your wishful thinking.-- Eversman ( talk) 23:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
It is absolutely astoudning that the current version is based on only person's (Eversman's)extreme view (i.e. repeateldy using the one example how Tomic himself told the media that he is of Croatian backround etc). It is a complete oversimplification of a complex issue; and I believe it has no factual weight. Remember when at US open, the announcer incorrectly stated that Djokovic was Serbian - Djokovic corrected him, but took no offence, and said "it's the same thing really". Tennis players are less concerned about their background than we obviously are. So to hold what the 18 year old Tomic who came to Aus as a three year old says (to Australian media) as the paragon of truth regarding his background is uttelry simplistic and narrow-minded (especially when there are factual references that are very relevant in this example - I've provided one below (tuzlalive.com). It's amazing that he's parents' Bosnian descent is being disputed by some based on such simplistic, uneducated and quite undemocratic reasoning, totally contrary to Wikipedia's ethic. Zeddi30 ( talk) 06:13, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
This is an interesting source, as it's a website dedicated to exactly this issue. It specifically states "Bernard Tomic is an Australian professional tennis player who was born to a Croatian father, Ivica and a Bosnian mother, Adisa." I've never heard of this site before, but it looks pretty good. Absconded Northerner ( talk) 13:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
John Tomic Interview:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/06/30/tennis-wimbledon-tomic-idUKL3E7HT36820110630
Once again another direct quote, this time by Bernard Tomic's own father, defining the Tomic family as being nothing but of Croatian blood. These are not the words of some unrelated journalist, nor the opinion of some anonymous Wikipedia editor here. Sorry, but you don't identify your parents as having just a "Croatian background" when your mother is supposedly a Bosniak (Bernard Tomic Interview, Australian Open, 20.01.11), nor your family to just be of Croatian blood when your wife is again supposedly a Bosniak.
STOP READING BETWEEN THE LINES TO PRETEND OTHERWISE ALREADY!
Tifetondu ( talk) 09:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Bosnia-Herzegovina demographics (CIA Fact Book):
Bosniaks/Muslims (48%), Serbs (37.1%), Croats (14.3%), others (0.6 %)
source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bk.html
STOP CLAIMING THAT BOSNIAN = BOSNIAK, WHEN MOST BOSNIANS AREN'T!
Tifetondu ( talk) 09:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Common Bosniak first names do not always prove ethnicity in the former Yugoslavia.
Examples:
"Alisa" Maric (woman Grandmaster in chess) is a Serb.
"Aida" Ljubicic (wife of tennis player Ivan Ljubicic) is a Croat.
"Zlata" Filipovic (the Anne Frank of Sarajevo) is a Bosnian Croat.
"Jasmina" Tesanovic (feminist author) is a Serb.
"Damir" Dokic (father of tennis player Jelena Dokic) is a Serb.
"Zlatan Stipisic" (singer) is a Croat.
Same goes with Croatian and Serbian first names:
"Tomislav" Nikolic (politician) is a Serb.
"Zlatko" Lagumdžija (politician) is a Bosniak.
"Zvonimir Vukic" (footballer) is a Serb.
"Dragan" Cović (politician) is a Bosnian Croat.
Stop making assumptions and uncorroborated claims just on someone's first name...YOUR PERSONAL OPINION PROVES NOTHING !
Tifetondu ( talk) 09:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
You're clutching at straws, Tife.
Any Muslim-born person, Bosniak or ex-Yugoslav (Serbian or Croatian) will tell you that Adisa is not a Serbian or Croatian name. If you said otherwise, they would laugh at you. The only way for a person to obtain such a name is through marriage. Names in the Balkans are a big deal when identifying a person by his/her religion/cultural heritage, there is no "lee-way" like there is in Australia.
Nevertheless, as pointed out before, Adisa was born Adisa Vatić - Vatić is a Bosniak last name.
Translated:
"while his mother Adisa, born Vatić, from Brčko."
http://sportsport.ba/tenis/tomic-stigao-beckera/59658
The fact that both of her birth names are Bosniak only points to one thing.
However, there are no sources for any of these claims regarding the heritage of all names, no matter how much a person from ex-Yugoslavia would know and recognize (and I guarantee those from ex-Yugoslavia reading this will). Wikipedia simply does not work without primary sources (note: primary, not secondary sources like heresay from his Croatian father).
As far as I'm concerned, as much as I would have preferred Absconded's proposed opening paragraph due to the fact that it favours neither side - the opening paragraph agreed upon by everyone else is fine enough. The issue, for the moment, has been settled with the best possible compromise.
Jas315 ( talk) 01:02, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad to see that agreement was reached, but I see that some individuals are still not giving up their intentions, especially Bosnian users. I do not understand why those individuals feel so threatened by the statement of Bernard Tomić or his father, where they declare Tomić's family Croatian origin. Do you really think that by hiding that statement you can hide the truth? I have to agree with Jenks24 when he says that Tomic's opinion on the issue is completely relevant and the subject's opinion on such a clearly divisive issue must be taken into account. Any user who governs Wiki for a longer period of time should know this.-- Eversman ( talk) 11:12, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm not going to start an edit war, even one where consensus has recently been established, so I've initiated this discussion on AN/I. Absconded Northerner ( talk) 01:49, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
This is quite simple: the source says Croatia, so the article should say Croatia. This isn't an article about the history of the Balkans, nor is it the place for personal opinions and WP:SYNTH. Unless you can find a source that mentions Yugoslavia, leave it saying Croatia. Absconded Northerner ( talk) 16:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
OK, I just now noteced what happend during my abscence and I will like to leave two notes:
A source has now been added to support the claim that his parents originated from Yugoslavia. For everyone's information, it is stated on the fourth paragraph. Evlekis (Евлекис) ( argue) 12:18, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
On the Gold Coast it is a common rumour that Bernard Tomic is actually 2 years older than he claims (21 years old - not 19). A piece of the supporting evidence for this is the car which he recieved on his birthday - the liscence plate stating BTO21 (Benard Tomic 21). http://www.goldcoast.com.au/images/uploadedfiles/editorial/pictures/2012/01/26/TOMIC-HOLES-UP-AT-HOME.jpg
There aren't any trusted sources (news stories/quotes from family etc.) for this as of yet. But as Tomic's fame continues to grow it will likely pop up more often. Am interested if anyone else has more information on the subject. Thanks. Pierricbross ( talk) 08:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
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Under "Junior career" we have "...he qualified for the Sunsmart 18 and Under Canterbury Championships in New Zealand". Under what? The source is dead. HiLo48 ( talk) 06:59, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I've never heard his name said as it is indicated with the IPA. Instead of the o corresponding to the vowel in fraud, I've head it correspond to the vowel in bomb. The vowel /ɒ/ not /ɔ:/ Hollth ( talk) 03:18, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
@ Mr KEBAB: LoveVanPersie ( talk) 16:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
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@ Mr KEBAB: Is it Tȍmić ( 1, 2) or Tómić ( 2)? LoveVanPersie ( talk) 17:58, 30 December 2017 (UTC)