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Bernard Marshall Gordon article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Of course there are some problems with this article and there were right from the start of development. I recognize that according to Wikipedia policy the sources are my problem as so far I am the principle author. The main problem of course is that Bernie Gordon is more of a current figure than a historical one so the historians have not yet had a chance to work him over. But so are many other persons written about on Wikipedia in that category.
So, what we have about him are articles recently published, which are all on the Internet, I am sure. I used a selection of these. There are the following questions:
1) Are they third-party; that is, sources who are not directly involved? Obviously, not all. Bernie wrote an article referenced here and he is definitely not third party. But then there is the question of whether primary sources are always to be excluded! Many ancient sources were definitely primary, such as Thucydides and Julius Caesar, when they write of events in which they participated, and yet Wikipedia uses them all the time. The policy, in other words, like many legalistic documents, does not and cannot capture every case. If you need to quote someone, who is better than the persons themselves? To quote someone else quoting that person is redundant. There is no doubt that some of the sources were definitely biased in Bernie's favor. Others were not. I ignored the bias, but, you know, just because someone's actions or lives may look good, your saying that is not necessarily bias. Who has anything bad to say about St. Francis?
2) Are they accurate? Due to the lack of historical assessment I had something of a problem determining which of the material was accurate. An author would get something wrong and that would be repeated. This caused a certain deficit in understanding some aspects of his life, such as what he did on the DE. Was he the commander? Nobody says. They don't seem to know. But then, this is a problem not at all unique to this article. There are many errors in Wikipedia about living persons. We should not repeat an error just because it can only be corrected by reference to a primary source.
3) Are they reliable? Well, I chose only the most solid material that everyone seemed to know. It seems to me reliability is an issue for any source of any period and distance from the original event.
I would appreciate the public's input on this article. Is it original work? Is it all non-third-party? To what extent is it verified?
I have no axe to grind myself. I do not currently work for Analogic although it has been in my sphere of primary cognizance. I do not know Bernie personally and have nothing personal to gain by writing about or not writing about him. The article came out of light exchanges at the coffee table with lymanschool. I do think the person who placed the templates may be being a bit harsh on lymanschool and may be interpreting Wikipedia policy more severely than was intended. Bernie is a famous living person. There are plenty of articles on those.
What would you like to see for sources? Does anyone know of some printed material on Bernie?
I don't personally care if the article goes or stays. I would like to see good articles on Wikipedia. It is not a good thing to open up the Internet and find material on which you cannot rely, just as with any other mass medium. If this article has merit it should stay. If in the final analysis it is judged propagandistic or inacccurate or Dave's biography of Bernie, it should go. If I did not think it would pass I would not have put it there.
What do you think, Wikipedia public? Dave 12:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC
I found it strange that in the Marriage and family section of this article, Gordon’s first wife was summarily dismissed, while his second wife is described in great detail. Rather than “after a period of years” exactly how long was he married to his first wife? What was her name? Did she contribute to his success as an entrepreneur, and shouldn’t details concerning the children they had, be included? Following the “it was not working out” the next sentence begins with “Late, at approximately age 32, he married Sophia…..” For clarity, the reader would like to know what is meant by “Late”….. when did he first meet Sophia, when was he divorced, and when did he marry Sophia? I am sure the person who wrote this biography (maybe Botteville, or ?????) can supply the details concerning Gordon’s first Marriage and family. Since Gordon is still alive , maybe he could do so?
I dont think there is any question that his patents are reliable third-party sources. Also there are others already listed in the references. Maybe there needs to be some of those "[1]" links pointing to them? I dont know how to do that yet. Practically eberybody knows bernie gordon. I dont understand the problem. Ee signal 15:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This article was completely ridiculous. Did he write it himself or something? Hold your praise for your blog, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.97.110.142 ( talk) 19:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Bernard Marshall Gordon article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Bernie Gordon be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Of course there are some problems with this article and there were right from the start of development. I recognize that according to Wikipedia policy the sources are my problem as so far I am the principle author. The main problem of course is that Bernie Gordon is more of a current figure than a historical one so the historians have not yet had a chance to work him over. But so are many other persons written about on Wikipedia in that category.
So, what we have about him are articles recently published, which are all on the Internet, I am sure. I used a selection of these. There are the following questions:
1) Are they third-party; that is, sources who are not directly involved? Obviously, not all. Bernie wrote an article referenced here and he is definitely not third party. But then there is the question of whether primary sources are always to be excluded! Many ancient sources were definitely primary, such as Thucydides and Julius Caesar, when they write of events in which they participated, and yet Wikipedia uses them all the time. The policy, in other words, like many legalistic documents, does not and cannot capture every case. If you need to quote someone, who is better than the persons themselves? To quote someone else quoting that person is redundant. There is no doubt that some of the sources were definitely biased in Bernie's favor. Others were not. I ignored the bias, but, you know, just because someone's actions or lives may look good, your saying that is not necessarily bias. Who has anything bad to say about St. Francis?
2) Are they accurate? Due to the lack of historical assessment I had something of a problem determining which of the material was accurate. An author would get something wrong and that would be repeated. This caused a certain deficit in understanding some aspects of his life, such as what he did on the DE. Was he the commander? Nobody says. They don't seem to know. But then, this is a problem not at all unique to this article. There are many errors in Wikipedia about living persons. We should not repeat an error just because it can only be corrected by reference to a primary source.
3) Are they reliable? Well, I chose only the most solid material that everyone seemed to know. It seems to me reliability is an issue for any source of any period and distance from the original event.
I would appreciate the public's input on this article. Is it original work? Is it all non-third-party? To what extent is it verified?
I have no axe to grind myself. I do not currently work for Analogic although it has been in my sphere of primary cognizance. I do not know Bernie personally and have nothing personal to gain by writing about or not writing about him. The article came out of light exchanges at the coffee table with lymanschool. I do think the person who placed the templates may be being a bit harsh on lymanschool and may be interpreting Wikipedia policy more severely than was intended. Bernie is a famous living person. There are plenty of articles on those.
What would you like to see for sources? Does anyone know of some printed material on Bernie?
I don't personally care if the article goes or stays. I would like to see good articles on Wikipedia. It is not a good thing to open up the Internet and find material on which you cannot rely, just as with any other mass medium. If this article has merit it should stay. If in the final analysis it is judged propagandistic or inacccurate or Dave's biography of Bernie, it should go. If I did not think it would pass I would not have put it there.
What do you think, Wikipedia public? Dave 12:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC
I found it strange that in the Marriage and family section of this article, Gordon’s first wife was summarily dismissed, while his second wife is described in great detail. Rather than “after a period of years” exactly how long was he married to his first wife? What was her name? Did she contribute to his success as an entrepreneur, and shouldn’t details concerning the children they had, be included? Following the “it was not working out” the next sentence begins with “Late, at approximately age 32, he married Sophia…..” For clarity, the reader would like to know what is meant by “Late”….. when did he first meet Sophia, when was he divorced, and when did he marry Sophia? I am sure the person who wrote this biography (maybe Botteville, or ?????) can supply the details concerning Gordon’s first Marriage and family. Since Gordon is still alive , maybe he could do so?
I dont think there is any question that his patents are reliable third-party sources. Also there are others already listed in the references. Maybe there needs to be some of those "[1]" links pointing to them? I dont know how to do that yet. Practically eberybody knows bernie gordon. I dont understand the problem. Ee signal 15:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This article was completely ridiculous. Did he write it himself or something? Hold your praise for your blog, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.97.110.142 ( talk) 19:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bernard Marshall Gordon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:59, 18 July 2017 (UTC)