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Founded in 1082 or 1089?
The information is confusing. Clearly a church existed at the earlier date, 1082, and this was settled by the Cluniacs and hence referred to in Domesday as "the new ... church" ie 1086. Rufus' connection is in regard to major land grants. I am of the view that not all landed granted by the king was his directly, but held in reversionary title, and gifts to the church would be in mortmain so extinguishing his title. Therefore, the king's consent would be required to give the land to the church. 79.75.2.246 ( talk) 13:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)
Nortonius' edits in early May 2008 make the whole article much better and help clarify the early foundation issue. However, I would suggest returning the reference to the Ailwyn/ Aylwin dynasty and the City of London. 79.75.124.232 ( talk) 13:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)
The church may have been the original gift of one Aylwin 'Cild' an Englishman who also gave properties in London to support the St Charite house at Cluny, in or before 1082
Alwinus Child's only recorded gift to the new monastery was 'various rents in the city of London', and these may be represented in Domesday Book by mention of 13 burgesses there paying 44d (£0.18) annually to the estate at Bermondsey.
Nortonius - yes, the point of the 'city' dynasty is that Henry Fitz Aylwin, first 'mayor' of London and his descendants were a mercantile dynasty in the city, they were Aldermen for generations and the name and rank (Cild denotes high status ie 'Junior' to another important 'senior' of the same name) of our founder Alwin is just too much of a coincidence. Henry's daughter in law certainly had a monument in the Abbey and Henry owned property in Southwark. '13 burgages/ burgesses' is now and certainly was then a significant property in the city. Although the city was not a commune or corporation there were collective rights which is what William I's charter clearly demonstrates and these were held by the magnates like Cild who became the later Aldermen, who were not elected representatives but mercantile grandees. So could you put something back in like that? Balliol1980 ( talk) 08:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC) Tony S
In the Archeological / Reports section towards the end, the text currently says: "The report for the current dig is not online as of March 2006 but should be published here."
I can't see which of the multiple reports on the linked page is most relevant here. There is a general summary of work done in Bermondsey Square that might be relevant: http://www.pre-construct.com/Sites/Highlights/Bermondsey.htm
Anyone know if any particular report was intended as the link?
Dcorney ( talk) 11:50, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
A question has come up on the Wikipedea Humanities Reference Desk about Bermondsey Palace prompted by a question on the BBC quiz Mastermind. There are plenty of sources saying that Henry was born at "Bermondsey Palace" [1] [2] but it appears that the "palace" may have been a figment of the imagination of John Aubrey and some local folklore. Is there a definitive and modern source that confirms where Henry was born? If it was indeed at the Abbey, it ought to go into the "Royal Connections" section. Alansplodge ( talk) 19:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I reverted recent edits by 88.108.228.33, principally because I was unable to verify a reference underpinning the introduction of doubt concerning the identity of "Vermundesei" with Bermondsey. I was unable to find the cited source "T Sharp: 'Origins of Christianity in Surrey 2011'", but an online search led me to a " Tony Sharp" who has papers on similar subjects posted to Academia.edu – e.g. the first of that writer's papers listed there is entitled "The Seventh Century Conversion of Surrey and Southwark". I believe that Academia.edu is not a reliable source; but of course, if anyone can identify the cited source published in a WP:RS format, then this information can be restored. Other information added in the relevant edits, concerning a putative "Ailwyn civic dynasty", looks like WP:OR: compare the above topic, "Founded in 1082 or 1089?" Nortonius ( talk) 16:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Founded in 1082 or 1089?
The information is confusing. Clearly a church existed at the earlier date, 1082, and this was settled by the Cluniacs and hence referred to in Domesday as "the new ... church" ie 1086. Rufus' connection is in regard to major land grants. I am of the view that not all landed granted by the king was his directly, but held in reversionary title, and gifts to the church would be in mortmain so extinguishing his title. Therefore, the king's consent would be required to give the land to the church. 79.75.2.246 ( talk) 13:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)
Nortonius' edits in early May 2008 make the whole article much better and help clarify the early foundation issue. However, I would suggest returning the reference to the Ailwyn/ Aylwin dynasty and the City of London. 79.75.124.232 ( talk) 13:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)
The church may have been the original gift of one Aylwin 'Cild' an Englishman who also gave properties in London to support the St Charite house at Cluny, in or before 1082
Alwinus Child's only recorded gift to the new monastery was 'various rents in the city of London', and these may be represented in Domesday Book by mention of 13 burgesses there paying 44d (£0.18) annually to the estate at Bermondsey.
Nortonius - yes, the point of the 'city' dynasty is that Henry Fitz Aylwin, first 'mayor' of London and his descendants were a mercantile dynasty in the city, they were Aldermen for generations and the name and rank (Cild denotes high status ie 'Junior' to another important 'senior' of the same name) of our founder Alwin is just too much of a coincidence. Henry's daughter in law certainly had a monument in the Abbey and Henry owned property in Southwark. '13 burgages/ burgesses' is now and certainly was then a significant property in the city. Although the city was not a commune or corporation there were collective rights which is what William I's charter clearly demonstrates and these were held by the magnates like Cild who became the later Aldermen, who were not elected representatives but mercantile grandees. So could you put something back in like that? Balliol1980 ( talk) 08:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC) Tony S
In the Archeological / Reports section towards the end, the text currently says: "The report for the current dig is not online as of March 2006 but should be published here."
I can't see which of the multiple reports on the linked page is most relevant here. There is a general summary of work done in Bermondsey Square that might be relevant: http://www.pre-construct.com/Sites/Highlights/Bermondsey.htm
Anyone know if any particular report was intended as the link?
Dcorney ( talk) 11:50, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
A question has come up on the Wikipedea Humanities Reference Desk about Bermondsey Palace prompted by a question on the BBC quiz Mastermind. There are plenty of sources saying that Henry was born at "Bermondsey Palace" [1] [2] but it appears that the "palace" may have been a figment of the imagination of John Aubrey and some local folklore. Is there a definitive and modern source that confirms where Henry was born? If it was indeed at the Abbey, it ought to go into the "Royal Connections" section. Alansplodge ( talk) 19:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I reverted recent edits by 88.108.228.33, principally because I was unable to verify a reference underpinning the introduction of doubt concerning the identity of "Vermundesei" with Bermondsey. I was unable to find the cited source "T Sharp: 'Origins of Christianity in Surrey 2011'", but an online search led me to a " Tony Sharp" who has papers on similar subjects posted to Academia.edu – e.g. the first of that writer's papers listed there is entitled "The Seventh Century Conversion of Surrey and Southwark". I believe that Academia.edu is not a reliable source; but of course, if anyone can identify the cited source published in a WP:RS format, then this information can be restored. Other information added in the relevant edits, concerning a putative "Ailwyn civic dynasty", looks like WP:OR: compare the above topic, "Founded in 1082 or 1089?" Nortonius ( talk) 16:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)