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Emico. I have removed your statements for several reasons. Firstly your own experiences with the Apologetic group is not really relevant. They may not have replied to you, but that is no reason to assume they are guilty of something. Maybe they were on holiday, maybe they are busy. Secondly what you wrote does not conform to the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Some of what you wrote was also wrong. There is no evidence for the group being based on Roman Catholic theology. In fact it is extremely unlikely - go to the website and see what they say about Roman Catholics! DJ Clayworth 05:05, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
DJ. First, you should'nt remove someone else's statement. else, you'll be in this vicious cycle of one removing anothers contribution. Second, how long of a holiday do you think they should take? Don't you think it is their responsibility to defend their claim? After all, we are talking about another person reputation, that of Mr Manalo. As far as NPOV, you are not observing by putting a link which is crearly against another. As far as the Bereans theology, where do you think they got the doctrine of Christ being God-man? Emico 14:18, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
The idea that Jesus is both Man and God is part of the beliefs of almost all Christians, certainly not just Roman Catholics. Did you read what the website says about Catholics? [1] I know nothing about Mr Manalo, and I'd be quite happy if he wasn't mentioned in the article at all. It's not Wikipedia's job to refute anything the Bereans say. If you want people to know the truth about Mr Manalo (whoever he is) then you should write an article about him, not write about some other organisation. The only link I put in the article was to the Bereans' own website, which is certainly a sensible link to put in an article about the organisation. DJ Clayworth 00:40, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Are you a member of this berean cult? If you are, can you tell me what your source is for making the claim on you website. If you're not a member, then why do you care so much. The link you had had claims that were'nt true. Why do you participate in propagating lies? Do you know what you look like if you cover up for liars? (the above by User:Emico)
I care because I care about the truth. To find the source I used just click on the symbol [1] above and your browser will take you to the Berean website where they talk about Roman Catholicism. This will show you very clearly that they are not Catholic. I am removing what you wrote in the article because it is wrong. Also some of the things you wrote are your own opinion, and so do not belong in an encyclopedia. Please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view before you reply.
Please will you also sign your name whenever you write anything on talk pages. You can do so by putting four tilde characters like this ~~~~.
Incidentally you may be right that they are not functioning any more. Their mail server reported that their mailbox was full. DJ Clayworth 04:12, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
"You care about the truth"! How noble. Well, so do I. And the bereans webpage is not telling the truth. I am putting back my contribution to the article. Emico 06:24, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Let me put this as clearly as I can. What you are writing is factually wrong. The Bereans are not Catholic! I ask you again, did you read what the Bereans say about Catholics? They devote several pages to talking about reasons why Catholics are wrong. It is not sensible to write an article about an organisation without reading what they say about themselves! DJ Clayworth 13:51, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
They may not be, but they're still lying about the Iglesia ni Cristo. Tell them to fix their content, or remove your link here. By you keeping their link here, you are propagating a lie. Why do you wanat to keep on lying about another person. And you call yourself a christian? Don't you read? Read and understand my point before taking out my contribution. Emico 14:06, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I have read and understand your point. I'm sorry that you are offended by what the Bereans write, but it is obviously out of my control. What they are writing is a matter of opinion. Many people would agree with what they write, and many would disagree, just as there are there are those who agree and those who disagree with Iglesia ni Cristo. Should a Catholic be able to insist that we remove everything about Iglesia ni Cristo because they disagree with it? Of course not. DJ Clayworth 14:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Oh, now you are really stretching it. In case you get confused by your own post, the issue is that you put a link that is lying about someone. Take out the link and we won't have this tit for tat. But it looks you are hellbent on lying with them. And you claim to care about truth. As long as you'll keep on propagating a lie, I'll keep on pointing it out. BTW, I got your email. It's bit short on details. Emico 14:41, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
This article is about the Bereans. The link is to the Bereans' own website. For anyone wanting to know about the Bereans, pointing them to their website is sensible. Maybe you should explain what it is that they are 'lying' about. The only thing I have heard so far is that they say Felix Manalo 'founded' the Iglesia ni Cristo (whatever that is) whereas you say he only registered it with the Phillipine government. That's a pretty minor distinction. On the other hand you have written in this article several times that the Bereans are a Catholic organisation when it is clear they are not.
I didn't send you any email, by the way. DJ Clayworth 15:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
And of all the webpages having the name berean in them, you by chance picked this one. Convenient excuse. Pay attention DJ, after these long exchanges you claim to not know what they're lying about? Read man, read. For a man who claims to "care about the truth", you're too quick to support a liar. As far as the Bereans, I said they're daughters of catholicism. Because they believe in a catholic doctrine of Christ being God. This doctrine started in the council of nicea by the catholics. Come on, you got to at least know what you believe in! And I guess the email just so happen to come from the same ip range as yours. Emico 16:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I am well aware of the Council of Nicea. Like I said, almost all Christians believe that Jesus is God, including many denominations that were never part of the Catholic church. I didn't add the link - it was added when the article was created. And I have no idea what email you are talking about. I don't think you even know what my IP address is.
As far as I am concerned this is a trivial argument about something not very important. Shall we try for a compromise? Let's leave in the basic facts about the Bereans, take out the link to their home page (since it upsets you so much) and take out all the stuff you are adding about them. DJ Clayworth 16:21, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I suggested this to you 7 post before. Go ahead and remove the link. One last thing: Don't take another man's honor as trivial. One day, people will lie about you. We'll see if you think it is still trivial. Another thing, if your church say that the what "founder of the church" mean is not very important, leave that church. It's not of Christ if they don't profess that their founder is Jesus Christ. Have a nice day. Emico 16:30, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Outside view requested. I'm an atheist, so I have no axe to grind either way about theological theories. I agree with DJ Clayworth that Emico's commentary doesn't adhere to NPOV; it's also original research.
However, there are actually many churches and ministries called "Berean" - including this historical one - all named for the Bereans of Acts 17:11, with the belief in common that Christians should actively search the scriptures for verification and reject religious stances that fail this test.
So it does make sense not to single out this particular one for a link. However, I'm coming to this conclusion on the basis of the available information, not on Emico's arguments. It's unacceptable for one user to browbeat others into removing a link because he/she doesn't like the theological claims expressed there. RayGirvan 16:52, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Citing sources may help resolve this dispute. Joe D (t) 20:05, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Source for history is wikipedia.org unless otherwise indicated. Emico 19:23, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
If you'll forgive a little background info, the original Bereans 'examined the scriptures', and are therefore used as a model for a lot of churches that are founded on the principle of sola scriptura (i.e. supreme authority of scripture). Sola scriptura organisations are often in opposition to the Catholic principle of authority (scripture interpreted by the church, plus church tradition). Hence a lot of churches with Berean in the name will probably be more or less anti-Catholic. My apologies if everyone knew that already. DJ Clayworth 20:45, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Please, let's not get into an edit war. This is a page about Bereans, not Calvinism. Therefore a description of Calvinism is off-topic and unnecessary, since Calvinism is described at the linked Wikipedia article. Also - You don't just delete other people input! - yes, you do, as long as you have a solid reason and say why. Read Wikipedia:Introduction and guidelines Be Bold. Every edit page says at the foot If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly ... do not submit it. This is how Wikipedia works; I deleted irrelevant material and told you exactly why in the Edit Summary. And try to be objective and ask yourself which version provides more useful information to visitors. RayGirvan 22:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I have no objection to the stuff about John Barclay being here. However I have removed the stuff about the Trinity. Barclay and the Bereans believed in the Trinity, in which respect they are just like 98% of other Christians, so noting the fact is irrelevant. Much of what you wrote is also just plain wrong. Belief in the Trinity certainly predates the Council of Nicea. See Trinity. Please do not use this article as a reason for expounding your own personal beliefs. DJ Clayworth 13:13, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
For the record, I'm reverting this article - yet again - for the following reasons: the Emico version provides no references or sources; its descriptions of Calvinism, the Trinity and Nicene Creed are unnecessary as they exist in great detail at linked Wikipedia articles; the factual accuracy of Emico's statements about historical belief in the Trinity has been disputed (see above); and it omits relevant material about the many other modern Berean churches.
As well as refusing to work by basic Wikipedia guidelines such as Cite sources, Emico also appears to have POV issues with the topic, having accused editors trying to uphold Wikipedia:Neutral point of view of being Bereans. See User talk:Emico and Talk:Iglesia_ni_Cristo ("I like my contributions on the Bereans because it is true I've enquired and did not get a response. Are you a berean too?).
Readers can decide which version is constructive and which vandalism. I think this needs taking to dispute resolution procedure. RayGirvan 22:51, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Re John Barclay's Bereans. I've removed the sentence about them being the first to have that name, and changed present tense to past. I'm perfectly prepared to believe it true, and that there may be some historical continuity to modern Bereans. But as currently there's no explicit verification, it's against Wikipedia policy to say so. The full Oxford English Dictionary - which I don't have - ought to give a date citation for the term. RayGirvan 02:07, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
You blushing description of the Bereans of the philippines is POV. Reconsider. Emico 02:12, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
I have also removed the re-added paragraph about the Trinity. Please read my comments above to find the reason for this. DJ Clayworth 02:15, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Raygirvan, of all the berean congregation all over the world, you just by chance picked one from far away Philippines. You true colors are showing. Emico 02:20, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
We've been through this before. The fact that you don't believe in the Trinity is no reason to put a paragraph about why you don't believe in it into an article about a group of people who do. DJ Clayworth 02:31, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
My personal belief has got nothing to do with this. It is factual that it was the catholics who decreed the trinity and it is factual that the trinity is not in the bible. The sources I cited clearly states this fact.
This article is not about the particular berean website you support, who by the way do not believe in the trinity. This article is about the Bereans as they started out to be. Do you evagelizing on your own website. Your bias on the side of one particular berean website cannot be denied. Please take your bias somewhere else. Not on wikipedia. Have a nice day. Emico 02:41, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
The point is that the Bereans did believe in the Trinity, which makes them exactly like 98% of other Christians. I do not support any Berean website, and had never heard of the Phillipine Bereans (which are the ones you seem to object to) until I read about them in this article about a week ago.
Read the article on the Trinity. It is accepted by most Christians that the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible, even if the word is not. I can explain it to you in detail, but I don't want to do so here.
However this is not the point. Even if you believe that the Trinity is wrong, an article about a group that does believe it is the wrong place to explain why it is wrong. DJ Clayworth 02:52, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
I've examined a few more Google searches on Bereans, and I've reached the conclusion that the Phillipine Bereans are just not noteworthy enough in the grand scheme of things to warrant a separate mention. There appear to be dozens of them, and the Phillipine ones are way downt he list of importance. Feel free to disagree. DJ Clayworth 03:27, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Ho hum. I say again, there is no evidence that Berean churches do not believe in the Trinity. Here are some websites supporting the view that they do believe it. [2] [3] [4] [5] DJ Clayworth 01:19, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
As before, if you want to state that the Bereans, Barclayists or modern, did not believe in the Trinity you must provide evidence for this. If you do not then your edits amount to vandalism. DJ Clayworth 18:18, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Emico. Those are good links, clearly showing that the Berean church mentioned is Trinitarian. DJ Clayworth 16:02, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Too bad. It's a good fight(so to speak) and 4 against 1 is'nt so bad. One of them reverts for another to get around the 3 revert rule. He does'nt even read what he's reverting! loser. But I do have to do some personal stuff. My comments are in User_talk:Emico. I don't want to put them here where the vandals are. Emico 18:01, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
For the good of the article, and all its main editors, I feel compelled to bring the full reason for getting involved with this article in the first place. For those who are curious of why I reverted the page: Besides the points I gave to Emico above, look at the differences between the version before and after my reversion, the references, external links and categories were blanked out and omitted. I took it as damage to the structure of the article, and decided to revert it. Since I looked at the history of the page, I wanted to avoid any 3RR problems, since Onlytofind and Emico were in a 3RR situation and I didn't want a freeze on either the article or anybody's posting priviages. So I reverted it instead. After forgetting about it, Emico baits me by sending a message to my talk page, accusing me of being biased: "Do you have a problem with the facts about the trinity being decreed by the catholics? If you claim to be fair and unbiased, then show it. Emico 15:09, 29 May 2005 (UTC)". I answered his question, not knowing what he was talking about. Soon after, based on his conduct with other wikipedians as well as myself, I planned on issuing a Request for Comment on him. Instead I found out someone already started, but didn't fill out the actual form. I added the template, endorced it and encouraged whoever I though started the RFC to finish it.
From this point on, with the exception of developing a Disambiguation page, I no longer want to be invloved with the Bereans article. I'm sorry for any inconvienience this has caused for anybody. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 01:56, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
Before I jump to conclusions, Emico. Why did you erase the talk about the diambig page? -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 22:22, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
Appearently there is about 3 different types of "Bereans" organizations that are/have been in existence. Although they are similar, they are all different. I suggest we turn this article into a disambig page, then link each organization into its own article. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 01:15, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
You know what Emico? Maybe I can't find the word 'disaffected' in any web reference about Barclay. Doesn't mean he wasn't disaffected of course, and it's very nitpicking, but I haven't got time to argue. However we should write 'former Presbyterian minister' because he obviously wasn't one at the time he founded the Bereans. DJ Clayworth
Fair enough. "Disaffected" doesn't seem an unreasonable description however; he went on to form his own church after disputes with his bosses and being denied promotion within the Presbyterians. [6] RayGirvan 10:06, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Look the article is fine. Can we just leave it that way and stop arguing? DJ Clayworth 03:12, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hi all, I am abuGian webservant of The Bereans: Apologetics Research Ministry I just learned about this controversy so if you would allow me I'll just post my brief comment.
First of all we received no email from Emico. If he did sent us I can't remember receiving it, opening it or reading it. I often get a copy of all emails addressed to this Ministry. Now, regarding a full mailbox, we owe it to the server move we just went through, it doesn't mean we're already stopped serving the public. Thirdly, we have no affiliation to Johhn Barclay's ministry nor are we Roman Catholics. If John Barclay named his ministry "Bereans," it does not follow that we borrowed from John Barclay, after all, a quick look at Acts 17:11 would suggest Barclay and our Ministry both borrowed from the Bible. Lastly, it is not necessarily true that if a ministry is Trinitarian it follows it is a Roman Catholic ministry.
I just couldn't help but laugh at how Emico projected an image of narrow-mindedness in the Editing Talk:Bereans.
FYI, I made some analysis of this controversy myself in our forum: http://thebereans.net/forum/index.php?topic=4422.msg122497#msg122497
I hate to wade into a pre-existing controversy, but this article has a long section beginning "Perhaps of greater importance is WHICH scriptures are being referred to here".
This section appears to be off-topic, and also does not seem to have a citation. Since it is apparently an argument, not an encyclopedia entry relevant to the topic Bereans, I suggest it should be deleted. Geoffrey.landis 04:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
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Emico. I have removed your statements for several reasons. Firstly your own experiences with the Apologetic group is not really relevant. They may not have replied to you, but that is no reason to assume they are guilty of something. Maybe they were on holiday, maybe they are busy. Secondly what you wrote does not conform to the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Some of what you wrote was also wrong. There is no evidence for the group being based on Roman Catholic theology. In fact it is extremely unlikely - go to the website and see what they say about Roman Catholics! DJ Clayworth 05:05, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
DJ. First, you should'nt remove someone else's statement. else, you'll be in this vicious cycle of one removing anothers contribution. Second, how long of a holiday do you think they should take? Don't you think it is their responsibility to defend their claim? After all, we are talking about another person reputation, that of Mr Manalo. As far as NPOV, you are not observing by putting a link which is crearly against another. As far as the Bereans theology, where do you think they got the doctrine of Christ being God-man? Emico 14:18, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
The idea that Jesus is both Man and God is part of the beliefs of almost all Christians, certainly not just Roman Catholics. Did you read what the website says about Catholics? [1] I know nothing about Mr Manalo, and I'd be quite happy if he wasn't mentioned in the article at all. It's not Wikipedia's job to refute anything the Bereans say. If you want people to know the truth about Mr Manalo (whoever he is) then you should write an article about him, not write about some other organisation. The only link I put in the article was to the Bereans' own website, which is certainly a sensible link to put in an article about the organisation. DJ Clayworth 00:40, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Are you a member of this berean cult? If you are, can you tell me what your source is for making the claim on you website. If you're not a member, then why do you care so much. The link you had had claims that were'nt true. Why do you participate in propagating lies? Do you know what you look like if you cover up for liars? (the above by User:Emico)
I care because I care about the truth. To find the source I used just click on the symbol [1] above and your browser will take you to the Berean website where they talk about Roman Catholicism. This will show you very clearly that they are not Catholic. I am removing what you wrote in the article because it is wrong. Also some of the things you wrote are your own opinion, and so do not belong in an encyclopedia. Please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view before you reply.
Please will you also sign your name whenever you write anything on talk pages. You can do so by putting four tilde characters like this ~~~~.
Incidentally you may be right that they are not functioning any more. Their mail server reported that their mailbox was full. DJ Clayworth 04:12, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
"You care about the truth"! How noble. Well, so do I. And the bereans webpage is not telling the truth. I am putting back my contribution to the article. Emico 06:24, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Let me put this as clearly as I can. What you are writing is factually wrong. The Bereans are not Catholic! I ask you again, did you read what the Bereans say about Catholics? They devote several pages to talking about reasons why Catholics are wrong. It is not sensible to write an article about an organisation without reading what they say about themselves! DJ Clayworth 13:51, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
They may not be, but they're still lying about the Iglesia ni Cristo. Tell them to fix their content, or remove your link here. By you keeping their link here, you are propagating a lie. Why do you wanat to keep on lying about another person. And you call yourself a christian? Don't you read? Read and understand my point before taking out my contribution. Emico 14:06, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I have read and understand your point. I'm sorry that you are offended by what the Bereans write, but it is obviously out of my control. What they are writing is a matter of opinion. Many people would agree with what they write, and many would disagree, just as there are there are those who agree and those who disagree with Iglesia ni Cristo. Should a Catholic be able to insist that we remove everything about Iglesia ni Cristo because they disagree with it? Of course not. DJ Clayworth 14:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Oh, now you are really stretching it. In case you get confused by your own post, the issue is that you put a link that is lying about someone. Take out the link and we won't have this tit for tat. But it looks you are hellbent on lying with them. And you claim to care about truth. As long as you'll keep on propagating a lie, I'll keep on pointing it out. BTW, I got your email. It's bit short on details. Emico 14:41, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
This article is about the Bereans. The link is to the Bereans' own website. For anyone wanting to know about the Bereans, pointing them to their website is sensible. Maybe you should explain what it is that they are 'lying' about. The only thing I have heard so far is that they say Felix Manalo 'founded' the Iglesia ni Cristo (whatever that is) whereas you say he only registered it with the Phillipine government. That's a pretty minor distinction. On the other hand you have written in this article several times that the Bereans are a Catholic organisation when it is clear they are not.
I didn't send you any email, by the way. DJ Clayworth 15:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
And of all the webpages having the name berean in them, you by chance picked this one. Convenient excuse. Pay attention DJ, after these long exchanges you claim to not know what they're lying about? Read man, read. For a man who claims to "care about the truth", you're too quick to support a liar. As far as the Bereans, I said they're daughters of catholicism. Because they believe in a catholic doctrine of Christ being God. This doctrine started in the council of nicea by the catholics. Come on, you got to at least know what you believe in! And I guess the email just so happen to come from the same ip range as yours. Emico 16:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I am well aware of the Council of Nicea. Like I said, almost all Christians believe that Jesus is God, including many denominations that were never part of the Catholic church. I didn't add the link - it was added when the article was created. And I have no idea what email you are talking about. I don't think you even know what my IP address is.
As far as I am concerned this is a trivial argument about something not very important. Shall we try for a compromise? Let's leave in the basic facts about the Bereans, take out the link to their home page (since it upsets you so much) and take out all the stuff you are adding about them. DJ Clayworth 16:21, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I suggested this to you 7 post before. Go ahead and remove the link. One last thing: Don't take another man's honor as trivial. One day, people will lie about you. We'll see if you think it is still trivial. Another thing, if your church say that the what "founder of the church" mean is not very important, leave that church. It's not of Christ if they don't profess that their founder is Jesus Christ. Have a nice day. Emico 16:30, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Outside view requested. I'm an atheist, so I have no axe to grind either way about theological theories. I agree with DJ Clayworth that Emico's commentary doesn't adhere to NPOV; it's also original research.
However, there are actually many churches and ministries called "Berean" - including this historical one - all named for the Bereans of Acts 17:11, with the belief in common that Christians should actively search the scriptures for verification and reject religious stances that fail this test.
So it does make sense not to single out this particular one for a link. However, I'm coming to this conclusion on the basis of the available information, not on Emico's arguments. It's unacceptable for one user to browbeat others into removing a link because he/she doesn't like the theological claims expressed there. RayGirvan 16:52, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Citing sources may help resolve this dispute. Joe D (t) 20:05, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Source for history is wikipedia.org unless otherwise indicated. Emico 19:23, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
If you'll forgive a little background info, the original Bereans 'examined the scriptures', and are therefore used as a model for a lot of churches that are founded on the principle of sola scriptura (i.e. supreme authority of scripture). Sola scriptura organisations are often in opposition to the Catholic principle of authority (scripture interpreted by the church, plus church tradition). Hence a lot of churches with Berean in the name will probably be more or less anti-Catholic. My apologies if everyone knew that already. DJ Clayworth 20:45, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Please, let's not get into an edit war. This is a page about Bereans, not Calvinism. Therefore a description of Calvinism is off-topic and unnecessary, since Calvinism is described at the linked Wikipedia article. Also - You don't just delete other people input! - yes, you do, as long as you have a solid reason and say why. Read Wikipedia:Introduction and guidelines Be Bold. Every edit page says at the foot If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly ... do not submit it. This is how Wikipedia works; I deleted irrelevant material and told you exactly why in the Edit Summary. And try to be objective and ask yourself which version provides more useful information to visitors. RayGirvan 22:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I have no objection to the stuff about John Barclay being here. However I have removed the stuff about the Trinity. Barclay and the Bereans believed in the Trinity, in which respect they are just like 98% of other Christians, so noting the fact is irrelevant. Much of what you wrote is also just plain wrong. Belief in the Trinity certainly predates the Council of Nicea. See Trinity. Please do not use this article as a reason for expounding your own personal beliefs. DJ Clayworth 13:13, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
For the record, I'm reverting this article - yet again - for the following reasons: the Emico version provides no references or sources; its descriptions of Calvinism, the Trinity and Nicene Creed are unnecessary as they exist in great detail at linked Wikipedia articles; the factual accuracy of Emico's statements about historical belief in the Trinity has been disputed (see above); and it omits relevant material about the many other modern Berean churches.
As well as refusing to work by basic Wikipedia guidelines such as Cite sources, Emico also appears to have POV issues with the topic, having accused editors trying to uphold Wikipedia:Neutral point of view of being Bereans. See User talk:Emico and Talk:Iglesia_ni_Cristo ("I like my contributions on the Bereans because it is true I've enquired and did not get a response. Are you a berean too?).
Readers can decide which version is constructive and which vandalism. I think this needs taking to dispute resolution procedure. RayGirvan 22:51, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Re John Barclay's Bereans. I've removed the sentence about them being the first to have that name, and changed present tense to past. I'm perfectly prepared to believe it true, and that there may be some historical continuity to modern Bereans. But as currently there's no explicit verification, it's against Wikipedia policy to say so. The full Oxford English Dictionary - which I don't have - ought to give a date citation for the term. RayGirvan 02:07, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
You blushing description of the Bereans of the philippines is POV. Reconsider. Emico 02:12, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
I have also removed the re-added paragraph about the Trinity. Please read my comments above to find the reason for this. DJ Clayworth 02:15, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Raygirvan, of all the berean congregation all over the world, you just by chance picked one from far away Philippines. You true colors are showing. Emico 02:20, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
We've been through this before. The fact that you don't believe in the Trinity is no reason to put a paragraph about why you don't believe in it into an article about a group of people who do. DJ Clayworth 02:31, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
My personal belief has got nothing to do with this. It is factual that it was the catholics who decreed the trinity and it is factual that the trinity is not in the bible. The sources I cited clearly states this fact.
This article is not about the particular berean website you support, who by the way do not believe in the trinity. This article is about the Bereans as they started out to be. Do you evagelizing on your own website. Your bias on the side of one particular berean website cannot be denied. Please take your bias somewhere else. Not on wikipedia. Have a nice day. Emico 02:41, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
The point is that the Bereans did believe in the Trinity, which makes them exactly like 98% of other Christians. I do not support any Berean website, and had never heard of the Phillipine Bereans (which are the ones you seem to object to) until I read about them in this article about a week ago.
Read the article on the Trinity. It is accepted by most Christians that the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible, even if the word is not. I can explain it to you in detail, but I don't want to do so here.
However this is not the point. Even if you believe that the Trinity is wrong, an article about a group that does believe it is the wrong place to explain why it is wrong. DJ Clayworth 02:52, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
I've examined a few more Google searches on Bereans, and I've reached the conclusion that the Phillipine Bereans are just not noteworthy enough in the grand scheme of things to warrant a separate mention. There appear to be dozens of them, and the Phillipine ones are way downt he list of importance. Feel free to disagree. DJ Clayworth 03:27, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Ho hum. I say again, there is no evidence that Berean churches do not believe in the Trinity. Here are some websites supporting the view that they do believe it. [2] [3] [4] [5] DJ Clayworth 01:19, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
As before, if you want to state that the Bereans, Barclayists or modern, did not believe in the Trinity you must provide evidence for this. If you do not then your edits amount to vandalism. DJ Clayworth 18:18, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Emico. Those are good links, clearly showing that the Berean church mentioned is Trinitarian. DJ Clayworth 16:02, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Too bad. It's a good fight(so to speak) and 4 against 1 is'nt so bad. One of them reverts for another to get around the 3 revert rule. He does'nt even read what he's reverting! loser. But I do have to do some personal stuff. My comments are in User_talk:Emico. I don't want to put them here where the vandals are. Emico 18:01, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
For the good of the article, and all its main editors, I feel compelled to bring the full reason for getting involved with this article in the first place. For those who are curious of why I reverted the page: Besides the points I gave to Emico above, look at the differences between the version before and after my reversion, the references, external links and categories were blanked out and omitted. I took it as damage to the structure of the article, and decided to revert it. Since I looked at the history of the page, I wanted to avoid any 3RR problems, since Onlytofind and Emico were in a 3RR situation and I didn't want a freeze on either the article or anybody's posting priviages. So I reverted it instead. After forgetting about it, Emico baits me by sending a message to my talk page, accusing me of being biased: "Do you have a problem with the facts about the trinity being decreed by the catholics? If you claim to be fair and unbiased, then show it. Emico 15:09, 29 May 2005 (UTC)". I answered his question, not knowing what he was talking about. Soon after, based on his conduct with other wikipedians as well as myself, I planned on issuing a Request for Comment on him. Instead I found out someone already started, but didn't fill out the actual form. I added the template, endorced it and encouraged whoever I though started the RFC to finish it.
From this point on, with the exception of developing a Disambiguation page, I no longer want to be invloved with the Bereans article. I'm sorry for any inconvienience this has caused for anybody. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 01:56, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
Before I jump to conclusions, Emico. Why did you erase the talk about the diambig page? -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 22:22, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
Appearently there is about 3 different types of "Bereans" organizations that are/have been in existence. Although they are similar, they are all different. I suggest we turn this article into a disambig page, then link each organization into its own article. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 01:15, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
You know what Emico? Maybe I can't find the word 'disaffected' in any web reference about Barclay. Doesn't mean he wasn't disaffected of course, and it's very nitpicking, but I haven't got time to argue. However we should write 'former Presbyterian minister' because he obviously wasn't one at the time he founded the Bereans. DJ Clayworth
Fair enough. "Disaffected" doesn't seem an unreasonable description however; he went on to form his own church after disputes with his bosses and being denied promotion within the Presbyterians. [6] RayGirvan 10:06, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Look the article is fine. Can we just leave it that way and stop arguing? DJ Clayworth 03:12, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hi all, I am abuGian webservant of The Bereans: Apologetics Research Ministry I just learned about this controversy so if you would allow me I'll just post my brief comment.
First of all we received no email from Emico. If he did sent us I can't remember receiving it, opening it or reading it. I often get a copy of all emails addressed to this Ministry. Now, regarding a full mailbox, we owe it to the server move we just went through, it doesn't mean we're already stopped serving the public. Thirdly, we have no affiliation to Johhn Barclay's ministry nor are we Roman Catholics. If John Barclay named his ministry "Bereans," it does not follow that we borrowed from John Barclay, after all, a quick look at Acts 17:11 would suggest Barclay and our Ministry both borrowed from the Bible. Lastly, it is not necessarily true that if a ministry is Trinitarian it follows it is a Roman Catholic ministry.
I just couldn't help but laugh at how Emico projected an image of narrow-mindedness in the Editing Talk:Bereans.
FYI, I made some analysis of this controversy myself in our forum: http://thebereans.net/forum/index.php?topic=4422.msg122497#msg122497
I hate to wade into a pre-existing controversy, but this article has a long section beginning "Perhaps of greater importance is WHICH scriptures are being referred to here".
This section appears to be off-topic, and also does not seem to have a citation. Since it is apparently an argument, not an encyclopedia entry relevant to the topic Bereans, I suggest it should be deleted. Geoffrey.landis 04:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
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