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I have edited this to cure the obvious POV issues and have added basic facts for any bio, such as date of birth, full name, the dates of events. The problem, Geo Swan is that when you create these hundreds of politically motivated stubs, for the sole purpose of getting more hits on Google, that you forget to include the basic information. Joaquin Murietta 15:07, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
No one would question the value of improving a biographical article, by adding in the birth date, and the dates of other significant events. JM can pat themself on the back for having added some dates to this and other biographical articles.
But I think JM is making mistakes that they can justify removing material, in order to restore what they regard as a NPOV, merely by claiming the need for those changes was "obvious". -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
JM removed the information that Mohammed had been identified as a subject of the controversial technique of extraordinary rendition, without saying why. I restored that information. It is verifiable. The Amnesty International link identifies his that way. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
In particular, JM removed a bunch of external links, without giving a justification for their removal. I have restored them. I don't see any downside to including links that talk about the subject of biography. I replaced one link which quoted five paragraphs from Mohammed's August 11th statement to another link that quoted all eleven paragraphs. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Before JM's edits the article talked about Mohammed's participation in the current hunger strike and the previous hunger strike. JM removed the references to the hunger strike, without explanation. Mohammed's claim to participation in the hunger strike is verifiable. That passage, IMO was not written in a POV way. If my best effort to write it in an NPOV way, I would welcome any civil explanation of what I did wrong
I expanded that section. I think I did it in an NPOV way. If JM, or anyone else, can find an offical reply to Mohammed's statement, or an official denial that the first hunger strike was ended through negotiation, of course they should expand that section to reflect that. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I've explained my edits. I encourage JM, if they choose to add or delete anything to do the same. Maybe if they identify what they regard as problematic we can arrive at a compromis that leaves everyone satisfied?
There is a team working hard to wikify dates, to enable articles to be processed mechanically, in new ways. This team has automated tools to assist them. It takes them about one minute each for them to examine an article, approve the changes to the wiki dates. Let me suggest it is a courtesy to them to refrain from undoing their work. JM routinely undoes the date wikification in the external links of articles he edits. I'd like to encourage them, as a courtesy to others, to stop doing so. JM also routinely unlinks the name of the actual publication in the external links of the articles he edits. This is not only the way everyone else edits article, but, it is useful in cases where the publication moves an article from the current server to their archive server, to have a link to the publications home page. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Creating stub articles in order to score google hits? This idea would never have occurred to me. I guess some people do use a simple count of google hits to determine the importance of a person, or event.
I always tell the truth. I never have a secret agenda. I contribute to articles on detainees in the "war on terror" for the same reason most other wikipedians contribute to articles. Most of contribute to articles in topics we are interested in, where we think we know something, that other people might be interested in it too. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be a dispute about whether we can say definitively that this man trained in the Al-Qaeda terrorist training camp Al Farouq. I think we can agree on the following:
It seems to me that the evidence that he did actually attended this camp is disputed. I have therefore changed the line "who, by his own admission, trained in the Al-Qaeda terrorist training camp Al Farouq" to one that I believe is supported by the evidence cited here: "...who, the US authorities claim, trained in the Al-Qaeda terrorist training camp Al Farouq". If anyone wants to add more text to the introduction that he admitted this attendance, then I wouldn't have a problem with that, but the previous wording implied that it was an undisputed fact that he did actually attend this camp - and I don't believe the evidence supports that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.106.28.152 ( talk) 10:20, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I've gone a little further and removed the word 'terrorist' from the sentence - it's a word that is perhaps best avoided in *any* article (except for the eponymous one), and in any case is implicit in the name 'Al Qaeda' for those that believe that the organisation is a terrorist organisation. Many such training camps existed in this area during the war against the Russians in the 80's, conducting exactly the same type of weapons training, therefore a more neutral description might be appropriate? Little grape ( talk) 11:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. MJD. 213.106.28.152 ( talk) 09:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
"Detainee admitted items 3A1-4 on the UNCLASS summary of evidence, but stated he went for training to fight in Chechnya, which was not illegal. The detainee stated that the other items were rubbish or made under duress."
|
I have removed the NPOV tag. The article as it stands seems to me to be well balanced and well sourced. There is nothing there that cannot be verified by reference to the sources cited. -- Cactus.man ✍ 08:28, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I thought we had a neutral edit on 18 October. After that, the addition of the self-serving quote skewed this article back. Dispute veracity or need for the lenghty quote, as opposed to linking to it. Joaquin Murietta 05:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I added the reference to the Guardian regarding the charges filed yesterday and the description of the allegations of the complaint. Joaquin Murietta 07:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Please understand that Binyam Mohamed is an Eritrean not Ethiopian. When Eritreans get in trouble, they claim to be Ethiopians.
Please note: Reference #12 is not functioning. Please update reference. Thank you. Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.93.114 ( talk) 19:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
? Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 20:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
"Under the bizarre laws the Americans have, they are preventing their commander-in-chief from knowing things that he should know," Clive Stafford Smith told Der Spiegel. "He is being denied access to material that would help prove that crimes have been committed by US personnel." ( http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,609464,00.html) -- 217.232.85.39 ( talk) 19:02, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Did BM acknowledge training at al Qaida camps? Another contributors edit summary said he acknowledged it to his Personal Representative. BM didn't attend his Tribunal. Although the DoD published the transcripts from the unclassified sessions of lots annual review board hearings, when there was substantive disucssion, even when the captive wasn't present, it was rare for them do so for the CSR tribunals. But BM is one of the captives who had their CSR Tribunal package published.
Those documents say his CSR Tribunal was not convened in Guantanamo -- it was convened elsewhere. I would guess Washington DC. The Personal Representative who met with him for 80 minutes wasn't there. A new PR was given the first officer's notes.
FWIW, those notes are riddled with careless errors.
The notes say he acknowledged the first four allegations. But, personally, I would interpret that as BM acknowledged attending a training camp in Afghanistan, which doesn't necessarily establish it was an al Qaida camp.
The notes imply his interrogators encouraged BM not to attend his Tribunal. That sounds like something they should have been prohibited from doing.
The notes state this was from BM's initial interview. Was there a followup interview? The notes state it was drafted on 2004-11-18. His Summary of Evidence memo is dated 2004-11-10. Usually the interview is the day after the memo was drafted. The eight day delay is unusual. His Tribunal was convened on 2004-11-22.
The detainee election form bears two dates -- 2004-11-17 and 2004-11-22. It lists the ranks of both Personal Representatives. A Lieutenant Commander is listed first. That would imply that the notes dated 2004-11-18, signed by the Major, were compiled second hand, possibly after a telephone conversation with the first guy. Geo Swan ( talk) 13:00, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
This is the title of a news article here. The allegations come from Granma the news agency of Cuba. The article mentions documents which say: "The accused accepts not to participate or support, in any way, litigation or challenge, in any forum, against the United States or any other nation or official from any nation, whether military or civilian", adding that "the accused assigns the United States all legal rights to sign and present any document, motion or speech necessary to implement this requirement on behalf of the accused." Mohamed’s lawyers rejected the proposed agreement. He was nonetheless released on 23 February 2009. Does this news article rate a mention in the Binyam Mohamed biography?--- PJHaseldine ( talk) 23:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Mohamed's lawyer, Clive Stafford Smith, has written a thought-provoking piece in today's Guardian.--- PJHaseldine ( talk) 10:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Would editors please be careful to comply with WP:Biographies of living persons. You cannot make assertions about or concerning someone without providing valid supporting citations - where 'valid' means that it supports what you write [without taking a sentence out of context] and that the citation still exists or at the very least existed on the day you took it. The New York Times reference falls into this category: it no longer exists and the reference to it was undated. I have commented it out.-- Red King ( talk) 12:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
The article currently has a 2nd level heading entitled "update". I think this section should be renamed. Additilly, it may not be appropriate to be a 2nd level heading, and should be rewritten as a 3rd level heading. The Wikinews article on the event was entitled: " UK loses appeal to conceal Binyam Mohamed torture". Maybe that would be a good alternate title for this section? Geo Swan ( talk) 17:28, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
This talk page seems a bit unloved, but I see there are a few watchers. I first visited the article today and just want to point out that there is quite a bit of overlap and consequent lack of coherence and sequence between sections … Accusations of abusive incarceration and UK complicity … Civil suit and … Allegations of MI5 collusion, (especially first and last) while 'Civil suit' should perhaps become plural and deal with UK and US civil actions, though much of the UK civil action ties in with 'complicity'. Pincrete ( talk) 17:42, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
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@ Pincrete: we are not supposed to link nationalities of BLPs in the beginning of the lead like that, for the very reason you gave. Unless we should do that BLPs generally, regardless of which country they are from, which I am OK with. Also, why does the location of Ethiopia matter here? — Mr. Guye ( talk) ( contribs) 22:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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I have edited this to cure the obvious POV issues and have added basic facts for any bio, such as date of birth, full name, the dates of events. The problem, Geo Swan is that when you create these hundreds of politically motivated stubs, for the sole purpose of getting more hits on Google, that you forget to include the basic information. Joaquin Murietta 15:07, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
No one would question the value of improving a biographical article, by adding in the birth date, and the dates of other significant events. JM can pat themself on the back for having added some dates to this and other biographical articles.
But I think JM is making mistakes that they can justify removing material, in order to restore what they regard as a NPOV, merely by claiming the need for those changes was "obvious". -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
JM removed the information that Mohammed had been identified as a subject of the controversial technique of extraordinary rendition, without saying why. I restored that information. It is verifiable. The Amnesty International link identifies his that way. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
In particular, JM removed a bunch of external links, without giving a justification for their removal. I have restored them. I don't see any downside to including links that talk about the subject of biography. I replaced one link which quoted five paragraphs from Mohammed's August 11th statement to another link that quoted all eleven paragraphs. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Before JM's edits the article talked about Mohammed's participation in the current hunger strike and the previous hunger strike. JM removed the references to the hunger strike, without explanation. Mohammed's claim to participation in the hunger strike is verifiable. That passage, IMO was not written in a POV way. If my best effort to write it in an NPOV way, I would welcome any civil explanation of what I did wrong
I expanded that section. I think I did it in an NPOV way. If JM, or anyone else, can find an offical reply to Mohammed's statement, or an official denial that the first hunger strike was ended through negotiation, of course they should expand that section to reflect that. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I've explained my edits. I encourage JM, if they choose to add or delete anything to do the same. Maybe if they identify what they regard as problematic we can arrive at a compromis that leaves everyone satisfied?
There is a team working hard to wikify dates, to enable articles to be processed mechanically, in new ways. This team has automated tools to assist them. It takes them about one minute each for them to examine an article, approve the changes to the wiki dates. Let me suggest it is a courtesy to them to refrain from undoing their work. JM routinely undoes the date wikification in the external links of articles he edits. I'd like to encourage them, as a courtesy to others, to stop doing so. JM also routinely unlinks the name of the actual publication in the external links of the articles he edits. This is not only the way everyone else edits article, but, it is useful in cases where the publication moves an article from the current server to their archive server, to have a link to the publications home page. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Creating stub articles in order to score google hits? This idea would never have occurred to me. I guess some people do use a simple count of google hits to determine the importance of a person, or event.
I always tell the truth. I never have a secret agenda. I contribute to articles on detainees in the "war on terror" for the same reason most other wikipedians contribute to articles. Most of contribute to articles in topics we are interested in, where we think we know something, that other people might be interested in it too. -- Geo Swan 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be a dispute about whether we can say definitively that this man trained in the Al-Qaeda terrorist training camp Al Farouq. I think we can agree on the following:
It seems to me that the evidence that he did actually attended this camp is disputed. I have therefore changed the line "who, by his own admission, trained in the Al-Qaeda terrorist training camp Al Farouq" to one that I believe is supported by the evidence cited here: "...who, the US authorities claim, trained in the Al-Qaeda terrorist training camp Al Farouq". If anyone wants to add more text to the introduction that he admitted this attendance, then I wouldn't have a problem with that, but the previous wording implied that it was an undisputed fact that he did actually attend this camp - and I don't believe the evidence supports that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.106.28.152 ( talk) 10:20, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I've gone a little further and removed the word 'terrorist' from the sentence - it's a word that is perhaps best avoided in *any* article (except for the eponymous one), and in any case is implicit in the name 'Al Qaeda' for those that believe that the organisation is a terrorist organisation. Many such training camps existed in this area during the war against the Russians in the 80's, conducting exactly the same type of weapons training, therefore a more neutral description might be appropriate? Little grape ( talk) 11:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. MJD. 213.106.28.152 ( talk) 09:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
"Detainee admitted items 3A1-4 on the UNCLASS summary of evidence, but stated he went for training to fight in Chechnya, which was not illegal. The detainee stated that the other items were rubbish or made under duress."
|
I have removed the NPOV tag. The article as it stands seems to me to be well balanced and well sourced. There is nothing there that cannot be verified by reference to the sources cited. -- Cactus.man ✍ 08:28, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I thought we had a neutral edit on 18 October. After that, the addition of the self-serving quote skewed this article back. Dispute veracity or need for the lenghty quote, as opposed to linking to it. Joaquin Murietta 05:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I added the reference to the Guardian regarding the charges filed yesterday and the description of the allegations of the complaint. Joaquin Murietta 07:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Please understand that Binyam Mohamed is an Eritrean not Ethiopian. When Eritreans get in trouble, they claim to be Ethiopians.
Please note: Reference #12 is not functioning. Please update reference. Thank you. Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.93.114 ( talk) 19:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
? Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 20:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
"Under the bizarre laws the Americans have, they are preventing their commander-in-chief from knowing things that he should know," Clive Stafford Smith told Der Spiegel. "He is being denied access to material that would help prove that crimes have been committed by US personnel." ( http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,609464,00.html) -- 217.232.85.39 ( talk) 19:02, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Did BM acknowledge training at al Qaida camps? Another contributors edit summary said he acknowledged it to his Personal Representative. BM didn't attend his Tribunal. Although the DoD published the transcripts from the unclassified sessions of lots annual review board hearings, when there was substantive disucssion, even when the captive wasn't present, it was rare for them do so for the CSR tribunals. But BM is one of the captives who had their CSR Tribunal package published.
Those documents say his CSR Tribunal was not convened in Guantanamo -- it was convened elsewhere. I would guess Washington DC. The Personal Representative who met with him for 80 minutes wasn't there. A new PR was given the first officer's notes.
FWIW, those notes are riddled with careless errors.
The notes say he acknowledged the first four allegations. But, personally, I would interpret that as BM acknowledged attending a training camp in Afghanistan, which doesn't necessarily establish it was an al Qaida camp.
The notes imply his interrogators encouraged BM not to attend his Tribunal. That sounds like something they should have been prohibited from doing.
The notes state this was from BM's initial interview. Was there a followup interview? The notes state it was drafted on 2004-11-18. His Summary of Evidence memo is dated 2004-11-10. Usually the interview is the day after the memo was drafted. The eight day delay is unusual. His Tribunal was convened on 2004-11-22.
The detainee election form bears two dates -- 2004-11-17 and 2004-11-22. It lists the ranks of both Personal Representatives. A Lieutenant Commander is listed first. That would imply that the notes dated 2004-11-18, signed by the Major, were compiled second hand, possibly after a telephone conversation with the first guy. Geo Swan ( talk) 13:00, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
This is the title of a news article here. The allegations come from Granma the news agency of Cuba. The article mentions documents which say: "The accused accepts not to participate or support, in any way, litigation or challenge, in any forum, against the United States or any other nation or official from any nation, whether military or civilian", adding that "the accused assigns the United States all legal rights to sign and present any document, motion or speech necessary to implement this requirement on behalf of the accused." Mohamed’s lawyers rejected the proposed agreement. He was nonetheless released on 23 February 2009. Does this news article rate a mention in the Binyam Mohamed biography?--- PJHaseldine ( talk) 23:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Mohamed's lawyer, Clive Stafford Smith, has written a thought-provoking piece in today's Guardian.--- PJHaseldine ( talk) 10:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Would editors please be careful to comply with WP:Biographies of living persons. You cannot make assertions about or concerning someone without providing valid supporting citations - where 'valid' means that it supports what you write [without taking a sentence out of context] and that the citation still exists or at the very least existed on the day you took it. The New York Times reference falls into this category: it no longer exists and the reference to it was undated. I have commented it out.-- Red King ( talk) 12:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
The article currently has a 2nd level heading entitled "update". I think this section should be renamed. Additilly, it may not be appropriate to be a 2nd level heading, and should be rewritten as a 3rd level heading. The Wikinews article on the event was entitled: " UK loses appeal to conceal Binyam Mohamed torture". Maybe that would be a good alternate title for this section? Geo Swan ( talk) 17:28, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
This talk page seems a bit unloved, but I see there are a few watchers. I first visited the article today and just want to point out that there is quite a bit of overlap and consequent lack of coherence and sequence between sections … Accusations of abusive incarceration and UK complicity … Civil suit and … Allegations of MI5 collusion, (especially first and last) while 'Civil suit' should perhaps become plural and deal with UK and US civil actions, though much of the UK civil action ties in with 'complicity'. Pincrete ( talk) 17:42, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:29, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
@ Pincrete: we are not supposed to link nationalities of BLPs in the beginning of the lead like that, for the very reason you gave. Unless we should do that BLPs generally, regardless of which country they are from, which I am OK with. Also, why does the location of Ethiopia matter here? — Mr. Guye ( talk) ( contribs) 22:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)