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Aug 22, 05: I'd like to contact Benjamin to ask if he has done any Mormon studies writing in the Spanish language. If you see this and know his email address can you please pass my interest on to him or ask him to contact me? (if you click on my user name and select "email this user" you can contact me). Stirling
Goethian, you seem to have worked a bit on it — was your work purely editorial, or do you have any sources for information on this guy? When I google, the only hits I get are wikipedia or generated from wikipedia. Slrubenstein | Talk
You must be doing something wrong, then, because anybody else who googles Benjamin Urrutia gets a long list of page after page of hits, most of which have nothing to do with Wikipedia.
Should we delete all the less-famous scholars to make room for more politicians?
If the article were "vanity" it would have a lot more about Urrutia's life, and a much longer list of publications. mikka (t) 18:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC) See below under "Googling."
It is true that Benjamin Urrutia is not very famous, but the books and articles he has written and published are all there. Not all have been posted on the internet, but they all exist in print.
Ecuadorian politicians for the most part have caused nothing but misery and suffering to the Ecuadorian people.
It is an outrageous viewpoint that politicians deserve being in Encyclopedias more than scholars and writers.
When I Google, I get an enormous list of mentions of Benjamin Urrutia.
It makes a big difference whether you use the Spanish spelling with a tilde on the i or the English spelling without the tilde. However, it is the same person.
Certainly anyone who has been published in the Publications of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, in American Antrhopologist, in Man, in the Journal of Human Evolution, in Mythlore, deserves to be in Wikipedia.
It is a fact that Benjamin Urrutia was the first person ever to translate the Spengler Module, which no one before him had been able to translate. His translation has not been disputed in all this time; it is unquestionably correct.
If we delete scholars who are not famous in their own lifetime, we have to delete Gregor Mendel, whose work on genetics was not recognized for forty years after he published it.
As far as anyone knows, Benjamin Urrutia has published nothing in his native language, Spanish, other than a couple of letters to the editor.
Benjamin Urrutia participated in archaeological excavations in both Ecuador and Israel.
It is true that The Logia of Yeshua was never a bestseller and did not have any major impact, but those who have read it can testify that it is a wonderful little book. More people should know about it.
The attack smells to me of religious bigotry against Latter-day Saints, ethnic bigotry against Hispanics, or both.
Maybe Urrutia is not so famous now, in spite of his four books and hundreds of shorter pieces, but who knows, he may get more famous in the future.
Instead of deleting, expand the article to include Benjamin Urrutia's accomplishments as missionary and soldier.
I know Ben very well, and I can testify that his computer is only a word processor without Internet access. He does not send or receive e-mail. Never has and probably never will. He's an old-fashioned kind of scholar and poet.
It's not about the man, it's about the ideas. B. Urrutia has very important and interesting ideas.
Certainly his notion of Jesus as a Leader of Nonviolent Resistance is one the world needs to hear.
Maybe the hostility against him is due to this idea, not to his ethnicity or obscurity,
Yes, the ad hominem attack is just an excuse to persecute the idea. For months the article stood unchallanged, but as soon as information about the Leadership of Jesus in Nonviolent Jewish Resistance was added, the attack began.
- Maybe there are anti-Semites out there who strongly object to seeing Jesus as a Jewish leader.
Many Presidents of Ecuador in the second half of the 20th century were crooks or madmen or both.
I did a big of Googling [1], and followed some of the links I found, and, ignoring WP mirrors, this is what I've come up with:
This is just from the first two pages of hits... He isn't sufficiently noteworthy that he's made it onto my radar, but he's certainly made it onto a number of other peoples'... Tomer TALK 23:15, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Survived Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Benjamín Urrutia. mikka (t) 23:28, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Benjamin Urrutia has written a large number of articles on Tolkien, but only one of them appears in the Bibliography in the article. He has written a few but important articles on French Structuralist anthropologist Claude Levi-Strauss, and none of them are listed in the article's bibliography. The article and its bibliography are very much in need of expansion. --anonymous comment by 66.99.1.126
The External Links section should also be expanded.+
my source for adding biblio entries that Mikkalai deleted: [8]
-- goethean ॐ 18:49, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Katefan0 protected this article yesterday, apparently over a content dispute. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:04, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
goethean, why are you so dead set against the LDSF books? Is it because you are brutally anti-Mormon? And why are you so dead set against including scholarly articles from American Anthropologist and the Hebrew University? That does not make any sense at all. And why do you say "your" book reviews and "your" journal articles? They are not mine. We are talking about Benjamin Urrutia. And your approach to editing is one of bullying and blackmail. Not cool. --anonymous comment by 66.99.0.124 ( talk · contribs)
All right, keeping the article basically as it is at present, with the addition of External Links to the Peaceable Table, LDSF, Logia of Yeshua, American Anthropologist. Does everybody agree?
I am not B.U., but I do know him personally. I have no interest in promoting him, but certainly in making his ideas -which are excellent and original ideas - available to everyone.
The notion that being "an editor is hardly an important contribution" is nonsensical. It's like saying only the players in an orchestra are important, the conductor is not important. Besides, B.U. wrote some of the articles and stories in the LDSF books. He is a player as well as the conductor. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.99.1.118 ( talk • contribs) 16:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion going on, so I've unprotected. Be nice. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 04:41, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay, Mr. Goethean, now how about adding those Peaceable Table External Links you offered? Once those are in place, the article should remain as it is until Urrutia's next major book is published. Peace.
Yes, we have an agreement. You win.
Unless someone has a fact that they'd like to dispute, I'd like to take the tag off the article. -- goethean ॐ 16:57, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey, who took off the External links to the Peaceable Table? Please restore them. - Das Baz.
Thank you very much for the quick restoration! - Das Baz.
The text of the Spangler Nodule - YHWWY - could be a variant of the Tetrgrammaton. Urrutia's is the only reading and translation of this text that has been offered in the last 208 years. Das Baz, aka Erudil 15:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear anonymous: The text exists. Das Baz, aka Erudil 16:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
What original research? Benjamin Urrutia said the YHWWY text may be a variant of the Tetragrammaton. That is in the reference we are both citing. There is absolutely no reason to not mention that bit of data about BU on the SN. On the other hand, your saying that the Text did not come from the Nodule, but from somewhere else - now that is Original Research, very much so, unless you can come up with a reliable source for it. And even if your theory is true - which I doubt very much - that is no reason not to mention BU's theory on the Text. Das Baz, aka Erudil 15:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The reference: NPSEHA, number 155 (1984). Sure, the Spengler Nodule may be an 1800 forgery, but no one - except you - has suggested that the text Urrutia translated did not come from the Nodule - so that is your Original Research - or rather, your original guess. Das Baz, aka Erudil 15:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
It is imperative to restore these two original sections. Mashing the two up into a single miscelaneous section labeled "Others" is not the least educational or helpful, but the very opposite. Das Baz, aka Erudil 03:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
We restored mention of the period spent in Israel. There is no reason to suppress this fact. Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:05, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
The article relies too much on primary sources describing what he has said/written, etc. These are inevitably chosen by editors who choose their favorite bits, while what we really need are independent sources discussing his ideas. Dougweller ( talk) 09:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
This complaint that the article should have more secondary and tertiary sources and fewer primary sources is just plain absurd. Primary sources are better. The section "Reaction" is all secondary sources, as many as are needed. Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
By now, there should be enough from secondary sources to make anyone happy. Das Baz, aka Erudil 19:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Benjamin Urrutia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was previously nominated for deletion. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Aug 22, 05: I'd like to contact Benjamin to ask if he has done any Mormon studies writing in the Spanish language. If you see this and know his email address can you please pass my interest on to him or ask him to contact me? (if you click on my user name and select "email this user" you can contact me). Stirling
Goethian, you seem to have worked a bit on it — was your work purely editorial, or do you have any sources for information on this guy? When I google, the only hits I get are wikipedia or generated from wikipedia. Slrubenstein | Talk
You must be doing something wrong, then, because anybody else who googles Benjamin Urrutia gets a long list of page after page of hits, most of which have nothing to do with Wikipedia.
Should we delete all the less-famous scholars to make room for more politicians?
If the article were "vanity" it would have a lot more about Urrutia's life, and a much longer list of publications. mikka (t) 18:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC) See below under "Googling."
It is true that Benjamin Urrutia is not very famous, but the books and articles he has written and published are all there. Not all have been posted on the internet, but they all exist in print.
Ecuadorian politicians for the most part have caused nothing but misery and suffering to the Ecuadorian people.
It is an outrageous viewpoint that politicians deserve being in Encyclopedias more than scholars and writers.
When I Google, I get an enormous list of mentions of Benjamin Urrutia.
It makes a big difference whether you use the Spanish spelling with a tilde on the i or the English spelling without the tilde. However, it is the same person.
Certainly anyone who has been published in the Publications of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, in American Antrhopologist, in Man, in the Journal of Human Evolution, in Mythlore, deserves to be in Wikipedia.
It is a fact that Benjamin Urrutia was the first person ever to translate the Spengler Module, which no one before him had been able to translate. His translation has not been disputed in all this time; it is unquestionably correct.
If we delete scholars who are not famous in their own lifetime, we have to delete Gregor Mendel, whose work on genetics was not recognized for forty years after he published it.
As far as anyone knows, Benjamin Urrutia has published nothing in his native language, Spanish, other than a couple of letters to the editor.
Benjamin Urrutia participated in archaeological excavations in both Ecuador and Israel.
It is true that The Logia of Yeshua was never a bestseller and did not have any major impact, but those who have read it can testify that it is a wonderful little book. More people should know about it.
The attack smells to me of religious bigotry against Latter-day Saints, ethnic bigotry against Hispanics, or both.
Maybe Urrutia is not so famous now, in spite of his four books and hundreds of shorter pieces, but who knows, he may get more famous in the future.
Instead of deleting, expand the article to include Benjamin Urrutia's accomplishments as missionary and soldier.
I know Ben very well, and I can testify that his computer is only a word processor without Internet access. He does not send or receive e-mail. Never has and probably never will. He's an old-fashioned kind of scholar and poet.
It's not about the man, it's about the ideas. B. Urrutia has very important and interesting ideas.
Certainly his notion of Jesus as a Leader of Nonviolent Resistance is one the world needs to hear.
Maybe the hostility against him is due to this idea, not to his ethnicity or obscurity,
Yes, the ad hominem attack is just an excuse to persecute the idea. For months the article stood unchallanged, but as soon as information about the Leadership of Jesus in Nonviolent Jewish Resistance was added, the attack began.
- Maybe there are anti-Semites out there who strongly object to seeing Jesus as a Jewish leader.
Many Presidents of Ecuador in the second half of the 20th century were crooks or madmen or both.
I did a big of Googling [1], and followed some of the links I found, and, ignoring WP mirrors, this is what I've come up with:
This is just from the first two pages of hits... He isn't sufficiently noteworthy that he's made it onto my radar, but he's certainly made it onto a number of other peoples'... Tomer TALK 23:15, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Survived Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Benjamín Urrutia. mikka (t) 23:28, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Benjamin Urrutia has written a large number of articles on Tolkien, but only one of them appears in the Bibliography in the article. He has written a few but important articles on French Structuralist anthropologist Claude Levi-Strauss, and none of them are listed in the article's bibliography. The article and its bibliography are very much in need of expansion. --anonymous comment by 66.99.1.126
The External Links section should also be expanded.+
my source for adding biblio entries that Mikkalai deleted: [8]
-- goethean ॐ 18:49, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Katefan0 protected this article yesterday, apparently over a content dispute. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:04, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
goethean, why are you so dead set against the LDSF books? Is it because you are brutally anti-Mormon? And why are you so dead set against including scholarly articles from American Anthropologist and the Hebrew University? That does not make any sense at all. And why do you say "your" book reviews and "your" journal articles? They are not mine. We are talking about Benjamin Urrutia. And your approach to editing is one of bullying and blackmail. Not cool. --anonymous comment by 66.99.0.124 ( talk · contribs)
All right, keeping the article basically as it is at present, with the addition of External Links to the Peaceable Table, LDSF, Logia of Yeshua, American Anthropologist. Does everybody agree?
I am not B.U., but I do know him personally. I have no interest in promoting him, but certainly in making his ideas -which are excellent and original ideas - available to everyone.
The notion that being "an editor is hardly an important contribution" is nonsensical. It's like saying only the players in an orchestra are important, the conductor is not important. Besides, B.U. wrote some of the articles and stories in the LDSF books. He is a player as well as the conductor. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.99.1.118 ( talk • contribs) 16:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion going on, so I've unprotected. Be nice. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 04:41, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay, Mr. Goethean, now how about adding those Peaceable Table External Links you offered? Once those are in place, the article should remain as it is until Urrutia's next major book is published. Peace.
Yes, we have an agreement. You win.
Unless someone has a fact that they'd like to dispute, I'd like to take the tag off the article. -- goethean ॐ 16:57, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey, who took off the External links to the Peaceable Table? Please restore them. - Das Baz.
Thank you very much for the quick restoration! - Das Baz.
The text of the Spangler Nodule - YHWWY - could be a variant of the Tetrgrammaton. Urrutia's is the only reading and translation of this text that has been offered in the last 208 years. Das Baz, aka Erudil 15:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear anonymous: The text exists. Das Baz, aka Erudil 16:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
What original research? Benjamin Urrutia said the YHWWY text may be a variant of the Tetragrammaton. That is in the reference we are both citing. There is absolutely no reason to not mention that bit of data about BU on the SN. On the other hand, your saying that the Text did not come from the Nodule, but from somewhere else - now that is Original Research, very much so, unless you can come up with a reliable source for it. And even if your theory is true - which I doubt very much - that is no reason not to mention BU's theory on the Text. Das Baz, aka Erudil 15:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The reference: NPSEHA, number 155 (1984). Sure, the Spengler Nodule may be an 1800 forgery, but no one - except you - has suggested that the text Urrutia translated did not come from the Nodule - so that is your Original Research - or rather, your original guess. Das Baz, aka Erudil 15:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
It is imperative to restore these two original sections. Mashing the two up into a single miscelaneous section labeled "Others" is not the least educational or helpful, but the very opposite. Das Baz, aka Erudil 03:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
We restored mention of the period spent in Israel. There is no reason to suppress this fact. Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:05, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
The article relies too much on primary sources describing what he has said/written, etc. These are inevitably chosen by editors who choose their favorite bits, while what we really need are independent sources discussing his ideas. Dougweller ( talk) 09:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
This complaint that the article should have more secondary and tertiary sources and fewer primary sources is just plain absurd. Primary sources are better. The section "Reaction" is all secondary sources, as many as are needed. Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
By now, there should be enough from secondary sources to make anyone happy. Das Baz, aka Erudil 19:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)