This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
What did Benjamin Harrison's father do for a living? RickK 16:43, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I removed the mention of antibiotics, as he was ill and died in 1901, which was significantly before Flemming discovered penicillin in 1928. If anyone can find that antibiotics were in use in 1901, please undo my edit.
The First Lady and wife of Benjamin Harrison Harrison was originally Caroline Lavinia Scott before marriage to Benjamin Harrison. Reason of edit: full maiden name appears in most presidential bios. -- 65.73.0.137
If his grandfather was William Henry Harrison, then why does he get a suffix like this?? According to what makes sense to me, this means that his grandfather would have to be Benjamin Harrison IV, but that is certainly wrong. 66.245.29.239 13:46, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I found a popular cartoon about Congress fighting over Civil Service Reform and Harrison quoted as saying "What can I do when both parties insist on kicking?" There is no mention of Civil Service Reform in this article and there is no article on Wikipedia titled Civil Service Reform. Perhaps the cartoon is popular and the topic is too small to note. I was just wondering what the reform issue was and what Harrison had to do with it. Kainaw 23:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Pictures serve to highlight the subject at hand. If several pictures are included in an article, preferably they should be different pictures of the subject in different contexts. Why are there three pictures of Harrison which are nearly identical? It serves no purpose -- † Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 05:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Would that be the same as a court reporter?-- Kross Talk 09:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Parts of this seemed to be copied word-for-word from the White House Bio of Harrison. Not sure if that is OK. For example from http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/bh23.html, this quote shows up verbatim near the end of this wikipedia version.
"Long before the end of the Harrison Administration, the Treasury surplus had evaporated, and prosperity seemed about to disappear as well. "
I have removed the erroneous claim formerly included in "Trivia" that B. Harrison "might have" been the first President whose voice was recorded, because the article here for Harrison's predecessor (and successor), Grover Cleveland, contains a media link to a recording of that President that was made a couple years earlier, refuting the previous claim. Michaeltmccorkle 00:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I have a passenger list indicating that a ship named the President Harrison was in operation during the year 1940. It arrived in New York City from Kobe and Suez. It does not appear to be the ship currently indicated within the article, as the date precedes the Liberty ship by two years. Might anyone have any additional information on this? I will post this comment on the discussion page for the SS Benjamin Harrison, as well. -- Thisisbossi 23:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC) The ship you mention sailed for the American President Lines and was captured by the Japanese in 1941. There were three ships named President Harrison. See this link http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/americanpresident.htm Barnaby the Scrivener ( talk) 12:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Benjamine Harrison is my great-great grandfather 208.3.137.104 13:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I have integrated most of the trivia section into the article except this one:
Harrison gained several nicknames during his presidency such as "Kid Gloves", "The Human Iceberg" and "Little Ben". These mocking titles given by his political rivals. "Little Ben" was also a name so-called by his Civil War regiment, the 70th Indiana Volunteers.
I can't find sources for this so I am moving here until I can. (I am trying to get the article ready for a GA review. Charles Edward 14:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd love to see you integrate the trivia fact that he was the last president with a beard.
24.208.168.249 (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment was added at
03:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not to be considered a GA-review, I'd just like to raise the issue of the overwhelming use of Wallace, which is over a century old, when a recent, scholarly work like Calhoun is available. WP:RS is quite clear on this: "some material may be outdated by more recent research". I'm not personally familiar with the two works, but I'd be very surprised if scholarship hadn't advanced significantly on this president in the last 120 years, and as it stands I doubt this article passes 2c - reliable sources. Lampman Talk to me! 14:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
A couple of other things I noticed that might prevent it from reaching GA-status: "Legacy" shouldn't be just about schools and stamps, this section should discuss his impact on American politics and history, and how previous and contemporary historians have seen him in the the context of his time. As for the "Presidential firsts" section, that seems mostly like a trivia section in disguise. Lampman Talk to me! 18:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
This review is transcluded from Talk:Benjamin Harrison/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Hello. I'm sorry to inform the editors of this article that I am failing it due to the amount of work needed to get it to GA status. That said, I have looked through some of the article history and am impressed with the work done thus far. Here are some suggestions for improvement:
I have no doubt that the editors of this article will step it up and continue to improve the article. Feel free to renominate when these issues are taken care of. Happy editing! Nikki 311 02:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I am reviewing this article. I will leave a preliminary list of issues within 24 hours. You will have ample time to respond, and to resolve any matters that arise thereafter. (I also did the William Henry Harrison review). Brianboulton ( talk) 23:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Before I start my detailed review of the text, there are some general issues which I would like to raise.
Perhaps you would respond to these concerns. I am starting now to go through the text in detail, and will report again when this is done. I will deal with typos amd minor fixes as I go along.
Brianboulton (
talk)
10:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
:I have removed several images as yoru suggested. I had already removed several, so there are about 6 images or so that could be placed back on the page. Would a gallery section be ok for this, or would you suggest leaving them out altogether? I have also removed the non-notable presidential firsts and namesakes and integrated the rest into the article, I was unsure what to do with them, I had already pared them down quite a bit and only kept what I could reference. I merged the further reading subsections together, the difference was the secondary sources where written by third parties, whereas the ones listed as primary where written by harrison himself or his campaign staff, none of them are used in the article though so they were not really sources anyway. I will try to organize the references as you suggested a little later today. Thanks for you initial review!
Charles Edward
15:57, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
::I have finished moving the images about and also fixed up the references as you pointed out.
Charles Edward
18:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Here is the rest of the review, a detailed look at the prose.
**"Legislation", in the sense that you are using it, is a mass noun that can’t be pluralized. You can’t have a "series of legislations". You can have a series of laws, and I suggest you amend to that.
**The term "Englander" is never used - say Englishman
**This heading is a bit abrupt. I suggest changing it to "Legal career"
**Washington DC needs linking on first mention.
**It doesn’t make much sense to say that "After returning from the war, he was an unsuccessful… candidate for governor", since this was 11 years after he war.
**It would help if you subdivided this section into domestic policy and foreign policy subsections.
That’s it for the present. I am putting the article on hold for seven days to allow you to respond to these points. I am confident you will do so, and that Benjamin will soon be joining his uncle in the GA category. Brianboulton ( talk) 16:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The article has been improved considerably during the course of this review, and in my view now meets all the Good Article criteria. The one possible weakness, not actually raised during the course of the review, is the reliance on a very limited set of sources - three books, one of them published 120 years ago - when there appears to be a wealth of Harrison stuff available on the web. I haven't examined the reliability of these web sources, but I imagine that some are good. One or two of the Further Reading titles looked to me as though they could have been used as sources. But I don't want to spoil the moment, so congratulations on your second Good Article relating to the Harrison family. Brianboulton ( talk) 22:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
He was succeeded by the same person that preceded him. Clicking the preceded by link takes you to the 24th, when I want the 22nd. I think we should at least have a small page for preceded, with a link to take you to the main article, which is under the 24th. 88.104.2.247 ( talk) 15:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Is actually Delta Chi not as reported. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.6.152 ( talk • contribs)
I mentioned to Durova that she might be interested in restoring an image or two for this article since it is well on its way to becoming an FA. She has already done this cartoon - Image:Benjamin Harrison Puck2.jpg. Awadewit ( talk) 00:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Best regards, Durova Charge! 00:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
A temporary subpage at User:Polbot/fjc/Benjamin Harrison was automatically created by a perl script, based on this article at the Biographical Directory of Federal Judges. The subpage should either be merged into this article, or moved and disambiguated. Polbot ( talk) 23:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Somebody removed alot of information. I assumed this was an accident. I tried to undo it. I don't know if I was successful.-- Retracted ( talk) 21:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Harrison has been put in the scot-irish american category. However there is no mention of this in the article, and the Harrison family is of English decent according the the William Henry Harrison article. Is there evidence or sources of a scottish or irish hertiage in Harrison? — Charles Edward ( Talk | Contribs) 14:14, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
For WP:ACCESSIBILITY by visually impaired readers, this article needs alt text as per WP:ALT. Can someone please take a crack at this before this article hits the main page? Thanks. Eubulides ( talk) 02:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, but the caption that lists Harrison as a Union army Brigadier General is incorrect. That's an eagle he's wearing on his uniform, not a star, therefore he was a Colonel at that point in his military career. 125.174.225.3 ( talk) 04:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Cleveland is being linked as the predecessor to Harrison and vise versa. Please adjust this error so Ben Harrison's presidential predesessor is correctly linked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.252.69 ( talk • contribs)
The civil rights section was taken out of this page. There seem to be certain editors who do not want civil rights to be talked about on Wikipedia. I guess the controlling editors at Wikipedia are biased when it comes to civil rights.{ 66.81.242.253 ( talk) 17:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)}
{ Cmguy777 ( talk) 03:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}
I appreciate all the help I have been given. Here is a proposed text for Civil Rights on Harrison. Please make comments.
Harrison endorsed the proposed Federal Elections Bill written by Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, but the bill was defeated in the Senate. [4] Following the failure to pass the bill, Harrison continued to speak in favor of African American civil rights in addresses to Congress. In 1892, Harrison went before Congress and declared, "…The frequent lynching of colored people is without the excuse...that the accused have an undo influence over courts and juries." However, Harrison believed the Constitution did not permit him to end the practice of lynching. Harrison did question the authority of the states in terms of establishing civil rights, arguing that if states have the authority over civil rights, then "we have a right to ask whether they are at work upon it." [5]
Why was the writings and sayings segment deleted? Why is that so controversial to be deleted? { Cmguy777 ( talk) 19:47, 11 November 2009 (UTC)}
Thanks for the edit clean up. Looks good. I can visualize Cleveland holding up that umbrella. { Cmguy777 ( talk) 00:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}
I would like to add a section on vetoes. There are three types: traditional, pocket, and overridden. I believe it shows how the President got along with Congress, particularly the overridden vetos. For example, Cleveland had 584 vetoes, while Thomas Jefferson did not have any vetoes.{ Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}
Just running this one by to see if it is worth to be in the Article. In 1891 there was a scandal that had to do with the Interior department. Green B. Raum, Jr., allegedly, was giving jobs in the Pension office for a "consideration". Also one of the clerks had someone else take the Civil Service test to get a passing grade. There was also allegations of nepotism. My source is the New York Times. Any suggestions? { Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:53, 15 November 2009 (UTC)}
Here is the link to the New York Times Article: [2]. The date on the Times article is May 22, 1891. Harrison was not involved, but Harrison had a direct talk with Commisioner Raum about the scandal. You can read the article. The paper made allegations of Harrison Administration with nepotism. The New York Times calls it a "scandal". I am not sure how his biographers missed this. Every author has a certain focus on each President. In my opinion it is worth being in the article. Consensus is needed. { Cmguy777 ( talk) 03:18, 15 November 2009 (UTC)}
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
What did Benjamin Harrison's father do for a living? RickK 16:43, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I removed the mention of antibiotics, as he was ill and died in 1901, which was significantly before Flemming discovered penicillin in 1928. If anyone can find that antibiotics were in use in 1901, please undo my edit.
The First Lady and wife of Benjamin Harrison Harrison was originally Caroline Lavinia Scott before marriage to Benjamin Harrison. Reason of edit: full maiden name appears in most presidential bios. -- 65.73.0.137
If his grandfather was William Henry Harrison, then why does he get a suffix like this?? According to what makes sense to me, this means that his grandfather would have to be Benjamin Harrison IV, but that is certainly wrong. 66.245.29.239 13:46, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I found a popular cartoon about Congress fighting over Civil Service Reform and Harrison quoted as saying "What can I do when both parties insist on kicking?" There is no mention of Civil Service Reform in this article and there is no article on Wikipedia titled Civil Service Reform. Perhaps the cartoon is popular and the topic is too small to note. I was just wondering what the reform issue was and what Harrison had to do with it. Kainaw 23:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Pictures serve to highlight the subject at hand. If several pictures are included in an article, preferably they should be different pictures of the subject in different contexts. Why are there three pictures of Harrison which are nearly identical? It serves no purpose -- † Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 05:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Would that be the same as a court reporter?-- Kross Talk 09:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Parts of this seemed to be copied word-for-word from the White House Bio of Harrison. Not sure if that is OK. For example from http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/bh23.html, this quote shows up verbatim near the end of this wikipedia version.
"Long before the end of the Harrison Administration, the Treasury surplus had evaporated, and prosperity seemed about to disappear as well. "
I have removed the erroneous claim formerly included in "Trivia" that B. Harrison "might have" been the first President whose voice was recorded, because the article here for Harrison's predecessor (and successor), Grover Cleveland, contains a media link to a recording of that President that was made a couple years earlier, refuting the previous claim. Michaeltmccorkle 00:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I have a passenger list indicating that a ship named the President Harrison was in operation during the year 1940. It arrived in New York City from Kobe and Suez. It does not appear to be the ship currently indicated within the article, as the date precedes the Liberty ship by two years. Might anyone have any additional information on this? I will post this comment on the discussion page for the SS Benjamin Harrison, as well. -- Thisisbossi 23:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC) The ship you mention sailed for the American President Lines and was captured by the Japanese in 1941. There were three ships named President Harrison. See this link http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/americanpresident.htm Barnaby the Scrivener ( talk) 12:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Benjamine Harrison is my great-great grandfather 208.3.137.104 13:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I have integrated most of the trivia section into the article except this one:
Harrison gained several nicknames during his presidency such as "Kid Gloves", "The Human Iceberg" and "Little Ben". These mocking titles given by his political rivals. "Little Ben" was also a name so-called by his Civil War regiment, the 70th Indiana Volunteers.
I can't find sources for this so I am moving here until I can. (I am trying to get the article ready for a GA review. Charles Edward 14:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd love to see you integrate the trivia fact that he was the last president with a beard.
24.208.168.249 (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment was added at
03:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not to be considered a GA-review, I'd just like to raise the issue of the overwhelming use of Wallace, which is over a century old, when a recent, scholarly work like Calhoun is available. WP:RS is quite clear on this: "some material may be outdated by more recent research". I'm not personally familiar with the two works, but I'd be very surprised if scholarship hadn't advanced significantly on this president in the last 120 years, and as it stands I doubt this article passes 2c - reliable sources. Lampman Talk to me! 14:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
A couple of other things I noticed that might prevent it from reaching GA-status: "Legacy" shouldn't be just about schools and stamps, this section should discuss his impact on American politics and history, and how previous and contemporary historians have seen him in the the context of his time. As for the "Presidential firsts" section, that seems mostly like a trivia section in disguise. Lampman Talk to me! 18:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
This review is transcluded from Talk:Benjamin Harrison/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Hello. I'm sorry to inform the editors of this article that I am failing it due to the amount of work needed to get it to GA status. That said, I have looked through some of the article history and am impressed with the work done thus far. Here are some suggestions for improvement:
I have no doubt that the editors of this article will step it up and continue to improve the article. Feel free to renominate when these issues are taken care of. Happy editing! Nikki 311 02:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I am reviewing this article. I will leave a preliminary list of issues within 24 hours. You will have ample time to respond, and to resolve any matters that arise thereafter. (I also did the William Henry Harrison review). Brianboulton ( talk) 23:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Before I start my detailed review of the text, there are some general issues which I would like to raise.
Perhaps you would respond to these concerns. I am starting now to go through the text in detail, and will report again when this is done. I will deal with typos amd minor fixes as I go along.
Brianboulton (
talk)
10:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
:I have removed several images as yoru suggested. I had already removed several, so there are about 6 images or so that could be placed back on the page. Would a gallery section be ok for this, or would you suggest leaving them out altogether? I have also removed the non-notable presidential firsts and namesakes and integrated the rest into the article, I was unsure what to do with them, I had already pared them down quite a bit and only kept what I could reference. I merged the further reading subsections together, the difference was the secondary sources where written by third parties, whereas the ones listed as primary where written by harrison himself or his campaign staff, none of them are used in the article though so they were not really sources anyway. I will try to organize the references as you suggested a little later today. Thanks for you initial review!
Charles Edward
15:57, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
::I have finished moving the images about and also fixed up the references as you pointed out.
Charles Edward
18:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Here is the rest of the review, a detailed look at the prose.
**"Legislation", in the sense that you are using it, is a mass noun that can’t be pluralized. You can’t have a "series of legislations". You can have a series of laws, and I suggest you amend to that.
**The term "Englander" is never used - say Englishman
**This heading is a bit abrupt. I suggest changing it to "Legal career"
**Washington DC needs linking on first mention.
**It doesn’t make much sense to say that "After returning from the war, he was an unsuccessful… candidate for governor", since this was 11 years after he war.
**It would help if you subdivided this section into domestic policy and foreign policy subsections.
That’s it for the present. I am putting the article on hold for seven days to allow you to respond to these points. I am confident you will do so, and that Benjamin will soon be joining his uncle in the GA category. Brianboulton ( talk) 16:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The article has been improved considerably during the course of this review, and in my view now meets all the Good Article criteria. The one possible weakness, not actually raised during the course of the review, is the reliance on a very limited set of sources - three books, one of them published 120 years ago - when there appears to be a wealth of Harrison stuff available on the web. I haven't examined the reliability of these web sources, but I imagine that some are good. One or two of the Further Reading titles looked to me as though they could have been used as sources. But I don't want to spoil the moment, so congratulations on your second Good Article relating to the Harrison family. Brianboulton ( talk) 22:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
He was succeeded by the same person that preceded him. Clicking the preceded by link takes you to the 24th, when I want the 22nd. I think we should at least have a small page for preceded, with a link to take you to the main article, which is under the 24th. 88.104.2.247 ( talk) 15:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Is actually Delta Chi not as reported. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.6.152 ( talk • contribs)
I mentioned to Durova that she might be interested in restoring an image or two for this article since it is well on its way to becoming an FA. She has already done this cartoon - Image:Benjamin Harrison Puck2.jpg. Awadewit ( talk) 00:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Best regards, Durova Charge! 00:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
A temporary subpage at User:Polbot/fjc/Benjamin Harrison was automatically created by a perl script, based on this article at the Biographical Directory of Federal Judges. The subpage should either be merged into this article, or moved and disambiguated. Polbot ( talk) 23:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Somebody removed alot of information. I assumed this was an accident. I tried to undo it. I don't know if I was successful.-- Retracted ( talk) 21:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Harrison has been put in the scot-irish american category. However there is no mention of this in the article, and the Harrison family is of English decent according the the William Henry Harrison article. Is there evidence or sources of a scottish or irish hertiage in Harrison? — Charles Edward ( Talk | Contribs) 14:14, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
For WP:ACCESSIBILITY by visually impaired readers, this article needs alt text as per WP:ALT. Can someone please take a crack at this before this article hits the main page? Thanks. Eubulides ( talk) 02:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, but the caption that lists Harrison as a Union army Brigadier General is incorrect. That's an eagle he's wearing on his uniform, not a star, therefore he was a Colonel at that point in his military career. 125.174.225.3 ( talk) 04:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Cleveland is being linked as the predecessor to Harrison and vise versa. Please adjust this error so Ben Harrison's presidential predesessor is correctly linked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.252.69 ( talk • contribs)
The civil rights section was taken out of this page. There seem to be certain editors who do not want civil rights to be talked about on Wikipedia. I guess the controlling editors at Wikipedia are biased when it comes to civil rights.{ 66.81.242.253 ( talk) 17:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)}
{ Cmguy777 ( talk) 03:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}
I appreciate all the help I have been given. Here is a proposed text for Civil Rights on Harrison. Please make comments.
Harrison endorsed the proposed Federal Elections Bill written by Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, but the bill was defeated in the Senate. [4] Following the failure to pass the bill, Harrison continued to speak in favor of African American civil rights in addresses to Congress. In 1892, Harrison went before Congress and declared, "…The frequent lynching of colored people is without the excuse...that the accused have an undo influence over courts and juries." However, Harrison believed the Constitution did not permit him to end the practice of lynching. Harrison did question the authority of the states in terms of establishing civil rights, arguing that if states have the authority over civil rights, then "we have a right to ask whether they are at work upon it." [5]
Why was the writings and sayings segment deleted? Why is that so controversial to be deleted? { Cmguy777 ( talk) 19:47, 11 November 2009 (UTC)}
Thanks for the edit clean up. Looks good. I can visualize Cleveland holding up that umbrella. { Cmguy777 ( talk) 00:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}
I would like to add a section on vetoes. There are three types: traditional, pocket, and overridden. I believe it shows how the President got along with Congress, particularly the overridden vetos. For example, Cleveland had 584 vetoes, while Thomas Jefferson did not have any vetoes.{ Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)}
Just running this one by to see if it is worth to be in the Article. In 1891 there was a scandal that had to do with the Interior department. Green B. Raum, Jr., allegedly, was giving jobs in the Pension office for a "consideration". Also one of the clerks had someone else take the Civil Service test to get a passing grade. There was also allegations of nepotism. My source is the New York Times. Any suggestions? { Cmguy777 ( talk) 01:53, 15 November 2009 (UTC)}
Here is the link to the New York Times Article: [2]. The date on the Times article is May 22, 1891. Harrison was not involved, but Harrison had a direct talk with Commisioner Raum about the scandal. You can read the article. The paper made allegations of Harrison Administration with nepotism. The New York Times calls it a "scandal". I am not sure how his biographers missed this. Every author has a certain focus on each President. In my opinion it is worth being in the article. Consensus is needed. { Cmguy777 ( talk) 03:18, 15 November 2009 (UTC)}
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |